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I'd imagine its the same reason that my store (a Toys R Us) doesn't carry the full line of Lego products. Not a lot on interest on a lot of them. We carry a ton of their products (more than any other retailer) but a lot of the kits just don't sell in any appreciable quantity, and so rather than use up shelf space on them, we'll use that space to sell products that will move, and we make them available for order instead.

You don't stock products that don't sell, or else you end up with tons of stock clogging up your inventory, and after awhile, you need to make it go away so you're not sitting on stock that'll take you years and years to move through, so you run a massive clearance sale (which ends up with you losing money) or you write it off (which also ends up with you losing money). My company just finished up going through this process, and it's a giant pain in the ass, and a money sink.

I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.

@Bi'ios A lot of the US retailers actually want the SKUs that they can no longer get because they are direct only now.

The OP is saying "GW why would you do this? Direct Order is killing your recruiting and sales base."

I have the feeling that Direct Only is even more of a dire situation than thought.

I think the problem is, GW no longer has the funds to manufacture enough models to supply flgs, their own stores, plus their web store.

By cutting everyone else out, they only have 1 inventory to worry about. It is much easier to control production to replenish one source as opposed to resupplying all the above mentioned inventories.

There's probably a lot of reasons they have so many direct only products, and none of them look good for their company in the long term.

I think the reason is that they recognise that they need to increase webstore sales. I think their webstore only accounted for about 13% of their total revenue over the last year, or something like that, which is criminally low considering how big online business is in nearly all retail sectors. The majority of product they sell online is from the discounters, which instead of competing against by offering webstore or instore deals of their own, they seek to legally squeeze as much as possible in order to limit their sales to draw people to their own webstore, which only damages their own image. Just look at the miniwargaming video on the trade terms with over 180,000 views, which is a hell of a lot for a GW related video.

GW has a real problem when it comes to independents. It must either support them fully or else try and recoup some direct profits for itself by being more ruthless. GW is a vertically integrated company, so it makes sense for it to issue vertically integrated product as that's the way they can make as much money as possible from their product. Given that the independent stores made up for about 36% of sales over the last year, only about 6% sales less than their hobby stores, this is a major problem for them. On one hand they need to increase direct profit, on the other they need independent retailers. They also wouldn't become very popular and would damage themselves massively if they ceased trade with independent retailers altogether. I feel they have created for themselves a bit of a Catch-22. Personally I would help the independents as much as possible and let them take the risk of running and maintaining a store but GW is reluctant to change its own hobby centre policy as they are still the source of greatest revenue. I feel its one-man stores will be counter-productive in the long-term because they are more akin to sales booths than hobby centres. GW places little value on its actual games which seems counter-intuitive at best.

Another reason is that many of these items may be due to be replaced or are Finecast kits awaiting to be made plastic. It doesn't make much sense to me either but it is GW we are talking about. It could be that such things sell in relatively low numbers so they see little point in distributing them around all their stores and they seem reluctant to provide them to independent retailers. Who knows? We don't really have the data necessary to give a concrete answer. All we do know is they spent around £4 million on their new webstore, how they managed to do so, I have no idea

As an aside I have noticed recently that some products on their webstore seem to be temporarily sold out for quite a while and more often than I have seen before, so it could indeed be a problem with supply or they are cutting manufacturing to a bear minimum, just look at how they underestimated the interest in Nagash.

 Bi'ios wrote:

I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.

Toys 'R' Us selling Legos has almost no bearing on the conversation. GW made the unilateral decision to make items Direct Only. They weren't making that decision based upon retail sales (or maybe they were, but again, based upon THEIR own flawed retail model). It was obviously a decision based upon driving business to their online store and saving on shipping costs.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.

Toys 'R' Us selling Legos has almost no bearing on the conversation. GW made the unilateral decision to make items Direct Only. They weren't making that decision based upon retail sales (or maybe they were, but again, based upon THEIR own flawed retail model). It was obviously a decision based upon driving business to their online store and saving on shipping costs.

I dunno, it seems like many items are available for the initial release and once it is assumed the bulk of the market has been satisfied, they move the items to direct only. How is that different than toys which are released in waves, and then retired in retailers? Many products don't keep a full-line or older releases everywhere, either retiring them as products or making them obtainable by direct only. In that regard I think legos and other toys are relevant.

I don't necessarily think 'direct buying only' is always going to be a bad decision for all companies and all products, but in a model where your products existence and use is niche and word of mouth I think you need to have avenues to expose your products. Privateer press is notoriously bad at keeping their products in stock for retailers which drives people to direct buy out of frustration because online orders directly get honored before distributors it seems. So while the model and motivation is different, the result is the same... sales are taken from the stores doing the legwork to spread the use of the product and sent to the company which cuts out the middleman. The difference is GW gets the blame and ill will and PP seems to shift that ill will to the FLGS who can't keep the stuff in stock and PP gets the sales directly.

 Bi'ios wrote:
I'd imagine its the same reason that my store (a Toys R Us) doesn't carry the full line of Lego products. Not a lot on interest on a lot of them. We carry a ton of their products (more than any other retailer) but a lot of the kits just don't sell in any appreciable quantity, and so rather than use up shelf space on them, we'll use that space to sell products that will move, and we make them available for order instead.

Space Marines are GW's biggest selling range. And yet pretty much all of the Marine characters (both generic and special characters) are direct only.

All of the Greater Daemons are direct only. Warbikers, Eldar Aspect Warriors, Plague Marines, Daemon Princes, Big Gunz, most of the big Tyranids, Phoenix Lords - (pretty much every character from every non-new-release army), and for a while there the Wave Serpent.

We're not talking obscure, slow-moving product here. These are core parts of the range that new players need... and they they can only get through GW directly.

This isn't about saving shelf space. It's about driving sales to their webstore (because unlike other webstores, who are just parasites who do nothing positive for the gaming community, the GW store is great for the hobby... because reasons!).

You don't stock products that don't sell, or else you end up with tons of stock clogging up your inventory, and after awhile, you need to make it go away so you're not sitting on stock that'll take you years and years to move through, so you run a massive clearance sale (which ends up with you losing money) or you write it off (which also ends up with you losing money).

That's one way to do it, yes.

The choice of what to stock should be up to the store, however. Retailers aren't being given the choice to stock these or not. GW has simply declared them unavailable to them.

If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.

It's a bigger problem in bigger businesses though, due to the scale of things and the need for big companies to forecast their sales so far in advance. To use your specific example, toy buyers have to predict, sometimes years in advance, what is going to sell. The strangest things can trend unexpectedly (we used to have YoYos sell like hotcakes periodically... couldn't keep them on the shelf. And then overnight, sales would just stop, and you would sit there with racks full of unsold YoYos for the next two years...) while stuff that looks like it should be a surefire winner just doesn't. And decisions as to what to stock and what to skip are made at head office, rather than by the people who actually have to try to sell the product...

The retailer with his single store has a somewhat easier time of it, particularly if he's really familiar with his customer base. Just look at any of Mikhaila's recent-ish rants GW trying to tell him what he should and shouldn't have in his store for a prime example of this in action... Having GW dictate that core product just isn't available is not good for anyone's business.

It all comes down to profit margin and preventing discounts. If it costs GW $10 to produce a kit, they sell it for $50, that's $40 profit. If they sell it to FLGS for $30, that's only $20 profit. Their revenue is taking a hit because more people would buy the products if they were available but profit is typically more important than revenue to share holders. If their revenue drops 10% but profit margins are up they consider it a win. When revenue starts dropping to the point where a company's business model looks destined to fail, the shareholders cash out and put their money in something else. Remember, this company is being run by accountants who couldn't care less about the hobby and lately it seems like long term viability has taken a back seat to short term profits.

Exclusives are to maximize profit, that's it. Look at the people that run GW, the decisions they make and ask yourself; would have exclusives for a concern over shelf space/supply demands, or because they want juicy price minus cost. This is the company that cut jobs TO KEEP A DECENT PROFIT MARGIN.

There's no thought for growth and development obviously. FLGS bring in new players and grow the game, because there isn't a GW in every city. But how much longer before the entire range is exclusive.

They couldn't care less about supply demands, GW are the only people who make GW products, so at a store or a FLGS it doesn't matter. But what does matter is the profit on a store versus FLGS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, I just thought of something. If you bought bonds from GW, when they came to term they'd try and pay you in models, but at full retail price not cost.

In my mind that's the kind of company they are, they seem to only be getting worse.

nkelsch wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

I totally get the "I want to just walk into the store and buy it" mindset, but, knowing how to run a business, that's a recipe for disaster. If we, a multi-billion dollar company, get stuck with a problem like that, imagine what it'd do to a small independent retailer. It's a problem that's more than enough to sink a business.

Toys 'R' Us selling Legos has almost no bearing on the conversation. GW made the unilateral decision to make items Direct Only. They weren't making that decision based upon retail sales (or maybe they were, but again, based upon THEIR own flawed retail model). It was obviously a decision based upon driving business to their online store and saving on shipping costs.

I dunno, it seems like many items are available for the initial release and once it is assumed the bulk of the market has been satisfied, they move the items to direct only. How is that different than toys which are released in waves, and then retired in retailers? Many products don't keep a full-line or older releases everywhere, either retiring them as products or making them obtainable by direct only. In that regard I think legos and other toys are relevant.

I don't necessarily think 'direct buying only' is always going to be a bad decision for all companies and all products, but in a model where your products existence and use is niche and word of mouth I think you need to have avenues to expose your products. Privateer press is notoriously bad at keeping their products in stock for retailers which drives people to direct buy out of frustration because online orders directly get honored before distributors it seems. So while the model and motivation is different, the result is the same... sales are taken from the stores doing the legwork to spread the use of the product and sent to the company which cuts out the middleman. The difference is GW gets the blame and ill will and PP seems to shift that ill will to the FLGS who can't keep the stuff in stock and PP gets the sales directly.

Because - carrying on the LEGO analogy...

Products through GW are not like the LEGO castle, or some other LEGO kit - they are the individual blocks in those kits. You don't normally buy a Codex on its own - you buy it in conjunction with paints, infantry, vehicles and characters.

What GW has done would be like if LEGO decided to say - you will no longer be able to get bricks larger than 2x2 in any kit. For those - you have to buy them from us online. Sure, you might be able to still build a castle using the parts that come in the LEGO kit, but not much of one.

In the same way, almost every single army can be built - in a shoddy manner using products that GW sells through distribution...but the good stuff, the stuff that you actually want in your armies is direct only. The instructions to build a lot of those armies are direct only (in the form of Codices and digital crap). Many very important, core items are direct only - for almost every army they support. So, if you want to play - you have to buy from GW.

This puts retailers in a significantly different position from how Toys'R'Us is dealing with LEGO. As opposed to selling complete items - the game store sells a basic Codex...lets say the Eldar Codex. Now, they start to figure out their list and go to the store to start buying it.



Granted - it has been years since I have looked at building a list for 40K...but it looks to me that a lot of important items are not available through the FLGS anymore. Many of those which are (squadrons and other combos) are at a distinct disadvantage over direct only - especially when the consumer has to go to the GW site anyway...and will be looking for ways to get their order up to the minimum amount for free shipping while they are there.

 insaniak wrote:

GW have been using the 'shelf space' excuse since the '90s.

It's not actually true. The GW stores I've been into over the years have all had plenty of room for more stock.

Exactly. They may now have pretty small stores, but plenty of other shops work with small stores. There's also no need for everything to be on display at once - no reason you can't keep boxes on a higher shelf or a tray in a store room, to be fetched on demand by the staff member. You could easily fit at least one of each SKU into trays under the till/register, with the big boxes needing the staffer to use a step to get. Both methods are already used by many other shops.

The problem has been touched on here already - manufacturing capacity. They need to produce a lot of stock to keep it in every GW/FLGS, but if it's direct only they don't. Particularly when it comes to Finecast, that's a big benefit.

It's totally stupid, but I can see why they do it.

As to the Lego/Toys R' Us thing - Toys R' Us get to choose what they stock based on what sells, this is like LEGO saying that 30% of the LEGO kits are direct only, because reasons, and Toys R' Us can do nothing about it even if they know it'd sell like hotcakes. It's not fringe products either; it's essential stuff for many armies.

However, it is clear that in many cases the range of products offered to Independents is not full enough to allow customers to buy complete workable forces. Other toys such as Lego do not require other purchases to be truly usable so wargaming is different.

Irrespective of the manufacturing issue, enough Independents want to stock a fuller range and are being denied and see buyers being pushed towards GW direct.

And as a business owner, I want to decide what we do and don't stock, I do not want some artificial and questionable limitation placed upon my business.

Personally, I think this is just more evidence that GW opening it's own network of stores will prove to be their demise.

Their own store network set them up as competitors with the independent retailers. In the 10+ years since the GW store network opened up, GW's retail practices have become more hostile to the independent retailer, all with the intent to force more sales to come directly from GW. This is partly because of the incredible expense of maintaining that retail network. IMO, GW has gotten to a point that their margins are low enough that they need the vast majority of their sales to be direct (either through their network or their website) at full retail cost for them to maintain the profitability they want.

I could go more into my reasons for believing this; I've thought about it a lot over the last several years. I just don't feel like posting a wall of text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The problem has been touched on here already - manufacturing capacity. They need to produce a lot of stock to keep it in every GW/FLGS, but if it's direct only they don't. Particularly when it comes to Finecast, that's a big benefit.

I actually disagree with this. Their manufacturing capacity hasn't significantly changed since before they started the direct only program.

If they're selling 100,000 units to customers in a given time frame, it doesn't matter if the customers are purchasing from GW direct or anywhere else, as far as their production capacity is concerned. In either case, they have to produce 100,000 units. Shipping costs are irrelevant because the retailer or distributor pays for those shipping costs, typically (though GW does have to pay to ship product to their own stores). Of course, stocking retailers will result in a small number of units produced that sit on a shelf and are not sold in that given time frame, but that really should be only a very small percentage of the overall number of units produced.

I repeat that my opinion is that this drive to force buyers to purchase from the GW web store is solely motivated by maximizing profitability. GW makes more money from selling the product at full retail directly to customers than they do selling that same product at the retailer discount to brick-and-mortar stores. It's still cheaper to sell direct that to stock their own GW stores, too, because this is a situation where GW would actually have to pay for the distribution, while an independent retailer would have to pay the shipping themselves (or at least a portion of it).

Saldiven wrote:
Personally, I think this is just more evidence that GW opening it's own network of stores will prove to be their demise.

Their own store network set them up as competitors with the independent retailers. In the 10+ years since the GW store network opened up, GW's retail practices have become more hostile to the independent retailer, all with the intent to force more sales to come directly from GW. This is partly because of the incredible expense of maintaining that retail network. IMO, GW has gotten to a point that their margins are low enough that they need the vast majority of their sales to be direct (either through their network or their website) at full retail cost for them to maintain the profitability they want.

I could go more into my reasons for believing this; I've thought about it a lot over the last several years. I just don't feel like posting a wall of text.

There's some good points here that I thought I would elaborate on, specifically that GW's approach in their early days (in the UK and to a much lesser extent in the US/Europe) was to establish a high street presence and drive out the LGS so that GW was the only shop on the high street that offered gaming goods. This worked fine in the early days when the only way to get miniatures was either physically in a store or via lengthy mail order for the extremely patient (and this was back in the day when you had to know that said mail order company existed, had to have a credit card to order from them, had to phone or post orders through, had to wait 28 days for delivery etc). More recently, with the advent of the internet and online shopping, a high street prescense isn't needed and in GW's case, is actually almost detrimental - it has oft been said that their retail arm is a millstone that costs too much money for too little benefit but I see it as further evidence of just how little GW learn, how little they have adapted and how badly they have misjudged the internet era. Their strategy now is to continue to ignore the internet whilst somehow trying to force people into ignoring internet retailers in favour of their bricks and mortar stores. They still (up till recently anyway) seem to be intent on opening as many stores as they can when really, they should be embracing the 'Amazon' generation who expect to be able to shop for discounted goods 24/7 and that are delivered promptly - this is what the modern consumer expects. Instead, they have ended up with a crappy webstore (that hilariously cost them a fortune - I bet the Oracle professional services team were laughing all the way to the bank with that one) and some sort of dangerously misguided policy that makes them think that driving discounters out of business will somehow bring customers back to their fold. Madness.

Have not looked at GW's website in a long time and this thread made me curious. Was shocked to see how many models went to direct order only.

I can see why they do a direct only sales really. If GW was to stock all of there items, it would require rows of units and bays to sell there product, which would easily leave no room what so ever for the painting stations. While these arent used as much as they were used to (I am presuming here so don't quote me for truth) they surely bring in more people and see more usage than a long row of bays selling products that do not shift what so ever?

 tomball0706 wrote:
I can see why they do a direct only sales really. If GW was to stock all of there items, it would require rows of units and bays to sell there product, which would easily leave no room what so ever for the painting stations. While these arent used as much as they were used to (I am presuming here so don't quote me for truth) they surely bring in more people and see more usage than a long row of bays selling products that do not shift what so ever?

You guys really need to get into your heads that the UK isn't the rest of the world. Nowhere else in the world has the concentration of GW stores that you guys have (thankfully), and a LGS doesn't have the same space limitations that GW stores apparently have.

Also, LGS owners should be the ones to decide what they wan't to stock or not, not GW. The fact that this isn't so, is because the only goal of this policy is to try and make more people buy directly from GW, keeping any third party sellers and their pesky percentages from "leaching" from GW...

PhantomViper wrote:
Also, LGS owners should be the ones to decide what they wan't to stock or not, not GW.

This is basically what I think. GW are screwing themselves hardcore by not letting FLGS's choose what they want to stock. Independent retailers around this area are doing everything they can to move sales away from GW stuff and on to other brands, moving their stock to direct only sure doesn't help that.

GW direct only is a mix of many things

Stuff that many other businesses would have dropped long ago, but because manufacturing is in house and relatively quick and cheap they keep around... Also because when they eliminate stuff gamers end up moaning (they'll never hear the end of the squats will controversy)

An attempt to 'help' retailers by reducing the amount of SKUs to stock (and retailers do moan about too many SKUs in a range which is why so many manufacturers are moving from single mini blisters to box sets), this is not handled very well as many retailers would like to decide on their own what to stock

Cut down on 'low selling' stock in their own stores (if they opened stuff up to independents they'd have to have it in their own stores) lets them keep minimal stock at HQ and manufacture on time

To drive traffic to their website, they don't do discounts in the way many online stores do so they need an 'edge' and direct only provides it. Want a direct only mini and you may well add in other stuff to hit cheaper postage, or just for convenience sake

to teach those naught independents a lesson, compete with GW and you're going down

etc

MONEY

That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.

It is incredibly frustrating to me that they have done this tho because I don't have a gw near me...(4 hours away?) So if I want that fine cast queek headtaker for my skaven force its $21, alright that's fine but now I have to pay $20 postage on it unless I spend $80+ and I don't want to do that when I only want 1 or 2 other models.

The discount from retailers is nice but most direct only stuff (at least in fantasy) are models that are either fine cast or old metal models so I wouldn't get the discount from fine cast (or at least not the same)

Its just to bad that you can't order stuff from independent retailers.

I dont know why but it has cost them much of our free cash. Other retailers offer a slight discount that makes the crunch on the wallet and the dirty feeling slightly less.

Without them GW would have even less of my money

I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
That's it plain and simple. Lots of people here have good points and it all boils down to (I'm my opinion) money and the amount of profit games workshop makes from direct only.

I don't think anyone was arguing that it's done because of money... they were arguing whether it's actually a good idea. There's not much use making more money per unit if you lose so many sales that you can't make up the gap.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.

What companies are those? You can't be talking about PP or Mantic because they both make awful minis, have lots of company problems and PP's models are just as expensive if not more than GWs...

GW and PP are two sides of the same coin, do the exact same stuff and yet people see a difference because they feel the bad man touched them down there.

Because they are dicks. That's why.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Because they are dicks. That's why.

Well, puppies and handjobs from a nice person doesn't make a bad PVC model with crap detail good or usable, or a product always out of stock 'in stock' or a 50$ model for a single 40mm creature cost less...

The only thing PP has GW beat on is rules... Apparently you can charge the exact same prices, have all sorts of screw jobs for retailer fulfillment and make crap products as long as your game rules are balanced. Everything else they are exactly the same as GW in every way.

nkelsch wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.

What companies are those? You can't be talking about PP or Mantic because they both make awful minis, have lots of company problems and PP's models are just as expensive if not more than GWs...

GW and PP are two sides of the same coin, do the exact same stuff and yet people see a difference because they feel the bad man touched them down there.

"awful minis" is your personal opinion and pretty laughable one when GW as stuff like finecrap, the teletubby marines and the Pumbagore...

And what are those "company problems" that Mantig and PP have, do tell?

nkelsch wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Because they are dicks. That's why.

Well, puppies and handjobs from a nice person doesn't make a bad PVC model with crap detail good or usable, or a product always out of stock 'in stock' or a 50$ model for a single 40mm creature cost less...

The only thing PP has GW beat on is rules... Apparently you can charge the exact same prices, have all sorts of screw jobs for retailer fulfillment and make crap products as long as your game rules are balanced. Everything else they are exactly the same as GW in every way.

I was answering the OP not addressing the PP/GW comparison. I don't like Mantic's crappy models or Pauldronhammer either.

I've gone to Infinity and Firestorm Armada. Both CB and Spartan seem to have their gak together and actually want customers.

nkelsch wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Because they are dicks. That's why.

Well, puppies and handjobs from a nice person doesn't make a bad PVC model with crap detail good or usable

Finecrap has infinitely less quality than any miniature ever made by PP or Mantic in PVC. Also please provide fotos of those models that have crap detail, please.

nkelsch wrote:

, or a product always out of stock 'in stock' or a 50$ model for a single 40mm creature cost less...

What are you even talking about? If you are talking about PP's stock problems, those were solved more than 2 years ago!

Also, for every 50$ METAL 40mm model that PP has, I'll show you the same price for a crappy GW PLASTIC model.

nkelsch wrote:

The only thing PP has GW beat on is rules... Apparently you can charge the exact same prices, have all sorts of screw jobs for retailer fulfillment and make crap products as long as your game rules are balanced. Everything else they are exactly the same as GW in every way.

Care to provide any type of evidence for all these claims that you are throwing around? Or is this just more of your typical white knight nonsense?

PhantomViper wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I've noticed a trend-most of the posters defending GW in this thread have 200 or less posts. You guys haven't had your eyes opened yet. You've started noticing there are sites where you can discuss Warhammer. Once you see there are other companies out there who do most things better than GW, you'll start singing a different tune. Baby steps.

What companies are those? You can't be talking about PP or Mantic because they both make awful minis, have lots of company problems and PP's models are just as expensive if not more than GWs...

GW and PP are two sides of the same coin, do the exact same stuff and yet people see a difference because they feel the bad man touched them down there.

"awful minis" is your personal opinion and pretty laughable one when GW as stuff like finecrap, the teletubby marines and the Pumbagore...

And what are those "company problems" that Mantig and PP have, do tell?

Mantic has horrible customer service issues and a revolving door kickstarter model which leaves every new backer with a 'I will never back Mantic KS again' feelings. They also undercut FLGS by the KS model making mantic models trash for stores to sell. often people can get mantic KS models on clearance before the kickstarter even fulfills, many times for cheaper than the KS.

PP cannot keep products in stock for retailers so often stores are bare and there are frequent delays which make people go to internet or direct buy to get things faster. Which results in the exact same behavior of sucking sales from the FLGS. I have never seen a model line which has more people unable to find a single part of the line 'acceptable' from an aesthetic point of view by a large number of people. The lack of conversions and strict tourney rules are also a turn-off. Their prices are exactly the same as GW in every capacity. For people who collect and paint models, who are a large portion of the consumer market, telling them 'the game needs less models to play' doesn't make a 50$ pile of metal cost less.

And while finecast sucks, GW is making a good effort to not use that anymore. PP and Mantic seem to be addicted to PVC and continue to make crap PVC models which are unacceptable to many mini collectors as a material.

So all 3 companies are EXACTLY THE SAME.