Yeah, so if the rumours are true , everyone enjoy Eldar taking a Dark Eldar Formation of 1 HQ 2 Troops and 6 Fast Attack, loading up on Raiders w/ their 3 + Jink and being a assault vehicle and then Deep Striking the Archon with FireDragons or Wraithguard.

Just putting this out there.

This better not be true.

ugh, I really hope its not true. No one should have to face 30 Fire Dragons who deepstrike.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, so if the rumours are true , everyone enjoy Eldar taking a Dark Eldar Formation of 1 HQ 2 Troops and 6 Fast Attack, loading up on Raiders w/ their 3 + Jink and being a assault vehicle and then Deep Striking the Archon with FireDragons or Wraithguard.

Just putting this out there.

This better not be true.

ugh, I really hope its not true. No one should have to face 30 Fire Dragons who deepstrike.

yea you summed up how I feel about this. are the eldar still battle brothers with Dark Eldar?


anyways, it's funny that people will use a broken codex to use with one of the newer, probably fairer one.

This is why battlebrothers should not exist. It gives the few that actually have it an unfair advantage since they have a MUCH wider array of tactics.

My orks have no battlebrothers at all,or tau for that matter anymore. Any idea how much i would love to field battlewagons full of plague marines lol

I feel bad for my friend. He's said that apparently most people look at all the cool things Eldar will have with the new release. That's depressing to hear.

And if anyone challenges me using DE and Eldar together with Deep Striking Wraithguard, I will kindly pass. That's beyond stupid.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
This is why battlebrothers should not exist. It gives the few that actually have it an unfair advantage since they have a MUCH wider array of tactics.

My orks have no battlebrothers at all,or tau for that matter anymore. Any idea how much i would love to field battlewagons full of plague marines lol

Which is why....Gogo Fantasy! No Ally rules!........yet, that is. >.<

Counter with a squad of invisible, prescienced Centurions in Space Wolf drop pods and an Inquisitor... for fluff purposes of course.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Counter with a squad of invisible, prescienced Centurions in Space Wolf drop pods and an Inquisitor... for fluff purposes of course.

I'll get my Necrons right on that.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, so if the rumours are true , everyone enjoy Eldar taking a Dark Eldar Formation of 1 HQ 2 Troops and 6 Fast Attack, loading up on Raiders w/ their 3 + Jink and being a assault vehicle and then Deep Striking the Archon with FireDragons or Wraithguard.

Just putting this out there.

This better not be true.

ugh, I really hope its not true. No one should have to face 30 Fire Dragons who deepstrike.

and the rumors continue.

Webway portal becoming pinpoint Deepstrike for the bearer and his unit is going to turn into a bearer and a bunch of D-Sythe Wraith guard. Just vaporize just about anything

 krodarklorr wrote:
I feel bad for my friend. He's said that apparently most people look at all the cool things Eldar will have with the new release. That's depressing to hear.

Look at all the good things the Imperium got with the GK release.

 ductvader wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I feel bad for my friend. He's said that apparently most people look at all the cool things Eldar will have with the new release. That's depressing to hear.

Look at all the good things the Imperium got with the GK release.

I'll add that to the reasons I question why I play this game sometimes...

 krodarklorr wrote:
I feel bad for my friend. He's said that apparently most people look at all the cool things Eldar will have with the new release. That's depressing to hear.

And if anyone challenges me using DE and Eldar together with Deep Striking Wraithguard, I will kindly pass. That's beyond stupid.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
This is why battlebrothers should not exist. It gives the few that actually have it an unfair advantage since they have a MUCH wider array of tactics.

My orks have no battlebrothers at all,or tau for that matter anymore. Any idea how much i would love to field battlewagons full of plague marines lol

Which is why....Gogo Fantasy! No Ally rules!........yet, that is. >.<

I dont think battle brothers shouldn't exist, but I have to agree when people are doing crazy lists designed for tournaments. Largely I have been having fun with the new ork codex, and even if there are no "curbstomp" lists available to them.

If someone brings this kind of stuff to the table, I'll just shrug and say that he autowins with that list, and I just hope the people at my local GW that play dark eldar don't bring this kind of stuff.

Geez... it's so ashaming that players always show those knee-jerk reactions. Instead of welcoming the challenge it's the same old song again: "Game destroyed... yadda yadda... unfair..."

Well one can hope there are some restrictions on that Webway portal but I highly doubt it.

Also, Raiders can deepstrike as well now so you can deepstrike Wraithguard or Fire Dragons.

Wraith guard would actually be pretty bad ass. Of course Ithink you could only get 5 or 6 in the Raiders , can't remember if they are bulky or very bulky.

They are bulky. And it's tough, but not imba. Wraithguards are pretty expensive and have only 1W. As a suicide unit they are maybe too expensive and are all but unkillable.

 Murenius wrote:
Geez... it's so ashaming that players always show those knee-jerk reactions. Instead of welcoming the challenge it's the same old song again: "Game destroyed... yadda yadda... unfair..."

Spoiler:

you know I was thinking the same thing before I thought about the implications of BB's.

Anyways, Guess we just have to see.

Yeah it's not freaking out but then you go , waiiiiit a second all of the disadvantages that some units in the Eldar army have can be completely eliminated and then it becomes a " That gak's broken".

Especially when you remember there is the Iyanden codex.

It just get's a little to much.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

Anyways, Guess we just have to see.

This!

Okay well I'm going to make a huge " I told you so" thread when in 3 months most Eldar lists include the Dark Eldar formation.

I mean sure I hope I'm wrong but everything so far leads us to believe that raiders etc.. can be taken as a F. Attack option and we know there is a Formation for D. Eldar that allows them to have 6 F. Attack.

Sure maybe there's a restriction, I'm hoping there is, but there is likely not.

Hollismason wrote:
Okay well I'm going to make a huge " I told you so" when in 3 months most Eldar lists include the Dark Eldar formation.

and you have every right too =P then we just have to deal with it I think

 Murenius wrote:
They are bulky. And it's tough, but not imba. Wraithguards are pretty expensive and have only 1W. As a suicide unit they are maybe too expensive and are all but unkillable.

Yeah, getting 5 of them in a raider and DSing is a medium risk medium reward option. You might drift out of range or you might drift into the enemy. Dcythes especilly as they have such a sweet spot with the templates.

But then in a raider, you have to wreck the raider, with it's 3+ cover not easy but certainly not too hard. Blowing it up wont do anythign to the wraithguard though, who you now need to kill. 5 T6 3+ wounds against isnt easy but isnt super hard. For the cost it isnt too bad.

Fire dragons are cheaper, can fit more in a raider or can be put in a venom. They have a little less range than Dcannons, but more than Dsythes.


In a raider, you are looking at something more or less similar to drop pod space marines. A little cheaper, perhaps a little more deadly, but more risky, arriving later, and less durable once on the ground.


The Webway portal rumor though, allows you to really hit the sweet spot on flame templates. If you could fit the bearer and 5 wraithguard in a raider(you cant) there would be even bigger problems.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
This is why battlebrothers should not exist. It gives the few that actually have it an unfair advantage since they have a MUCH wider array of tactics.

My orks have no battlebrothers at all,or tau for that matter anymore. Any idea how much i would love to field battlewagons full of plague marines lol

Atleast your orks get allies. My poor nid's get boned of even that little.

barnowl wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
This is why battlebrothers should not exist. It gives the few that actually have it an unfair advantage since they have a MUCH wider array of tactics.

My orks have no battlebrothers at all,or tau for that matter anymore. Any idea how much i would love to field battlewagons full of plague marines lol

Atleast your orks get allies. My poor nid's get boned of even that little.

You know you can take Come the Apocalypse allies now, right? They're scoring too.

Don't things that Deepstrike move as cruising speed? meaning all the snap shots and no disembarking?

Sounds like the perfect chance to turn around, flamer then assault the tank.

they used to, they changed it to combat speed in 7th. it allows droppods to fire their gun on the drop rather than snapping a turn.

 Desubot wrote:
Don't things that Deepstrike move as cruising speed? meaning all the snap shots and no disembarking?

Sounds like the perfect chance to turn around, flamer then assault the tank.

seems to be combat speed now. everything but assault is kosher

Oh my so no need to snap storms off drop pods

how in the world did i miss that. now considering missiles in pods.


looks like Deepstriking wraith flamers of death is a go :/

I'm so glad I recently won/bought another 6 Wraightguard and 5 Fire Dragons from eBay, because if this is true everyone will be trying to buy them soon.

Wait can you deep strike and fire a Flamer? I didn't think you could. Or maybe I'm confused.


Also, why not just fly around in Venoms or Raiders loaded up with D-Cannons or Vibro Cannons or a 10 Man squad of Dark Reapers, flying around w/ a 3+ Jink Save in the Back field firing off their guns.

Hollismason wrote:
Wait can you deep strike and fire a Flamer? I didn't think you could. Or maybe I'm confused.


Also, why not just fly around in Venoms or Raiders loaded up with D-Cannons or Vibro Cannons.

I think its a passover from 6th to 7th.. where Deepstriking vehicles moved at cruising speed and now is combat speed allowing passenger to fire without snaps.

Its why the missile blast upgrade on the drop pods where slightly useless.

D-cannons and vibro cannons are heavy no?

Moving passed 6" in a venom would make em snap which is a slight bit usless.

They're relentless.

Hollismason wrote:
Wait can you deep strike and fire a Flamer? I didn't think you could. Or maybe I'm confused.
Also, why not just fly around in Venoms or Raiders loaded up with D-Cannons or Vibro Cannons.

of course you can fire a flamer, so long as it isn't heavy you can fire it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
They're relentless.

well then you could fire them, so long as you don't move more than 6". But what have you gained? You can already move and shoot. Putting them in a vehicle doesnt make them more durrable(at least not much)

Dark Eldar Transports can deep strike now, plus 3+ Jink, in addition they have their armament.

Like why wouldn't you purchase that.

At least Wraithguard coming through a WWP is fluffy, Eldar do use the Webway as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Wait can you deep strike and fire a Flamer? I didn't think you could. Or maybe I'm confused.


Also, why not just fly around in Venoms or Raiders loaded up with D-Cannons or Vibro Cannons.

I think its a passover from 6th to 7th.. where Deepstriking vehicles moved at cruising speed and now is combat speed allowing passenger to fire without snaps.

Its why the missile blast upgrade on the drop pods where slightly useless.

D-cannons and vibro cannons are heavy no?

Moving passed 6" in a venom would make em snap which is a slight bit usless.

Dont forget you can also get out eh vehicle now for another 6" and with Battle Focus another D6 meaning even if you scatter way off the D-Scythes are still going to do their damage...

Yeah I have no desire to face

Archon Webway Portal
5 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I have no desire to face

Archon Webway Portal
5 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes

I was starting to think it was kind of like a heldrake, just point and click but it is a bit different. There is virtually nothing it cant kill or at least scare. On the other hand it is a bit random. Even if you get 20 hits, the might wound on 4+ or 5+ which could randomly end up only doing 2-3 wounds.

Whiners.

Not only is that combo no more crazy than T1 drop pod madness, wtf is it that you think any combo is going to be worth it ?

Wraithguard don't have battle focus unless you cast a WC2 spell with a spiritseer.

So... how about we talk about your combo hey ?

1 Archon ? 60 points
5 Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes ? 210 points

So for 270 points you get 5 templates S4AP2 distort and next turn you lose everything because it's only 3+ save, 5WT6 and 3WT3 .

woooo game is brokennnn noway you play eldar now moar excuz refuz game.

Sure, whatever.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


If someone brings this kind of stuff to the table, I'll just shrug and say that he autowins with that list, and I just hope the people at my local GW that play dark eldar don't bring this kind of stuff.

Or you could just bring 70 pt of grots and completely negate their deepstriking advantage, nope? Even boyz are cheap enough to counter their tactix. Orkses are not the ones who's afraid of this type of things too much. You want to get involved asap and when they're coming for you themselves with their expensive soldiers in av10 2 hp opentopped vehicles with 3+ at best ...I don't see any bad in it, really. Surround the damn tank and wreck it in mellee - now the guyz can't disembark and auto-die. Afraid of overwatch with flamers? They can overwatch only once. Use an expendable unit to eat fire and do the same trick once again. Or you could wreck a vehicle with shooting and put an end to the bunched up guyz with kmk/rokkits/lobbas/whatever.

morgoth wrote:

Not only is that combo no more crazy than T1 drop pod madness, wtf is it that you think any combo is going to be worth it ?

So for 270 points you get 5 templates S4AP2 distort and next turn you lose everything because it's only 3+ save, 5WT6 and 3WT3 .

Well the power of drop pod or this really depends on the opponents army composistion, if there are not targets worth over 200 points then its power is obviously less.

But consider that 10 sternguard with a bunch of combis in a pod coming down.
It can fire on 2 targets, if they combat squad in half on landing.
It requires a lot of room, drop pods are big
It puts out a fair amount of damage. Say 10 melta, looking at 6 pens if you get close enough, probably enough to kill any tank. Say 10 plasma, 13.33 hit, 11 wounds before invulns or cover against T5 or less. Half those(as you are getting 2 targets) you are looking at 5.5 wounds before cover or 3 pens for each half.
It costs a lot to have a full pod full of combis

Now 5 scythes pinpoint dropped.
Smaller footprint
No scatter, will always be in perfect flame range
each flamer is going to get 3+ hits, probably 4-5 and certainly more is possible. It is also possible to get flame hits on a primary squad and get a little bit of another squad or vehicle.(that's where the power is)
Against T4 that is 12 wounds, 4 of them ID that ignore cover. Against T7 it is still 4 ID wounds that ignore cover.
Against a single target you are looking at 1pen or ID wound roughly

Because of the smaller footprint needed, bubble wrap is less effective

Because you can get 2 targets, until they come down you have to keep you squads and MCs apart, lest they both get taken out. With pinpoint DS, you come down, flame a squad and also happen to clip an MC or another squad, doing more damage than sternguard can.


10 T4 3+ wounds is less durable than 5T6 3+ woudns with an archon tanking a bit. Particularly when you consider how tough the wraithguard are to assault unless you happen to have enough cheap troops in range to eat the overwatch. Bolters will still need 6s to wound the archon until the last wraithguard dies.

 Exergy wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Not only is that combo no more crazy than T1 drop pod madness, wtf is it that you think any combo is going to be worth it ?

So for 270 points you get 5 templates S4AP2 distort and next turn you lose everything because it's only 3+ save, 5WT6 and 3WT3 .

Well the power of drop pod or this really depends on the opponents army composistion, if there are not targets worth over 200 points then its power is obviously less.

But consider that 10 sternguard with a bunch of combis in a pod coming down.
It can fire on 2 targets, if they combat squad in half on landing.
It requires a lot of room, drop pods are big
It puts out a fair amount of damage. Say 10 melta, looking at 6 pens if you get close enough, probably enough to kill any tank. Say 10 plasma, 13.33 hit, 11 wounds before invulns or cover against T5 or less. Half those(as you are getting 2 targets) you are looking at 5.5 wounds before cover or 3 pens for each half.
It costs a lot to have a full pod full of combis

Now 5 scythes pinpoint dropped.
Smaller footprint
No scatter, will always be in perfect flame range
each flamer is going to get 3+ hits, probably 4-5 and certainly more is possible. It is also possible to get flame hits on a primary squad and get a little bit of another squad or vehicle.(that's where the power is)
Against T4 that is 12 wounds, 4 of them ID that ignore cover. Against T7 it is still 4 ID wounds that ignore cover.
Against a single target you are looking at 1pen or ID wound roughly

Because of the smaller footprint needed, bubble wrap is less effective

Because you can get 2 targets, until they come down you have to keep you squads and MCs apart, lest they both get taken out. With pinpoint DS, you come down, flame a squad and also happen to clip an MC or another squad, doing more damage than sternguard can.


10 T4 3+ wounds is less durable than 5T6 3+ woudns with an archon tanking a bit. Particularly when you consider how tough the wraithguard are to assault unless you happen to have enough cheap troops in range to eat the overwatch. Bolters will still need 6s to wound the archon until the last wraithguard dies.

Last time I looked 5 wraith guard take 10 transport slots and a raider has 10 slots so no archon tanking wounds. If someone bubble wraps there important stuff then you are killing nothing of importance.

You have no turn 1 alpha strike unless dark eldar get something like drop pod assault. D scythes do nothing to flyers since they are a template.

Question:
Baharoth never scatters when he deep strikes because he is a swooping hawks or whatever. If he is riding in a deep striking raider will the raider scatter?

My poor tyranids....not getting love for 2 editions now. Le sigh....

Rx8Speed wrote:
Question:
Baharoth never scatters when he deep strikes because he is a swooping hawks or whatever. If he is riding in a deep striking raider will the raider scatter?

Yes, it will. Baharroth has the special rule, not the transport, but it is the transport that is deepstriking, not Baharroth.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Which is why....Gogo Fantasy! No Ally rules!........yet, that is. >.<

Who needs Allies when every wizard in the game can summon Undead units?

Baharroth also has a jump pack, so he's not allowed in the transport in the first place.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Baharroth also has a jump pack, so he's not allowed in the transport in the first place.

Last I checked, jump packs make you bulky. They don't disallow you from getting in a transport. Could be wrong, never had any reason to put jump packs in a transport.

its under transports pg80, says only infantry may embark on a transport unless specified otherwise and it notes that this excludes jump/jet infantry.
Though to my knowledge the only exception is Devilfish specifically allowed to transport Drones even though theyre a jetpack unit (and also dont count as bulky)

How many WWPs can an army have?
Is it an artifact?

I'd like to point out that raiders can be killed by concentrated bolter fire, so even a tac squad can lay waste to the omg amazing deepstriking raiders you guys are worried about. now if you could assault the turn you land, i would be concerned. So far im thinking it will be fun but it wont be the end of the world. On an aside now i do think that it would be fun to drop of some grotesques or incubi to play using this tactic, esp if you deep strike a lot of your drive by kabalites as distraction

NightWrench wrote:


Last time I looked 5 wraith guard take 10 transport slots and a raider has 10 slots so no archon tanking wounds. If someone bubble wraps there important stuff then you are killing nothing of importance.

You have no turn 1 alpha strike unless dark eldar get something like drop pod assault. D scythes do nothing to flyers since they are a template.

And you know we have been talking about the WWP item, rumored to be pinpoint DS WITHOUT a transport.

 wuestenfux wrote:
How many WWPs can an army have?
Is it an artifact?

No clue. We don't know how many you can take, who can take it, how much it cost or if it even allows deepstriking without scatter. All of this is speculation based on rumors.

That said, rumors are that medusa's eye shot are s4 ap3 template. New archon court rules allow you to take 12 members in any combination and medusa are 15pts in the current dex. You can do the same wraithguard trick with the medusa for cheaper, only you can't harm sv2+. Assuming prices for everything are about equal to the current codex you can get an archon and 6 medusa for 200 points. Really, the issue is no scatter deep striking. It is just too good.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
How many WWPs can an army have?
Is it an artifact?

No clue. We don't know how many you can take, who can take it, how much it cost or if it even allows deepstriking without scatter. All of this is speculation based on rumors.

That said, rumors are that medusa's eye shot are s4 ap3 template. New archon court rules allow you to take 12 members in any combination and medusa are 15pts in the current dex. You can do the same wraithguard trick with the medusa for cheaper, only you can't harm sv2+. Assuming prices for everything are about equal to the current codex you can get an archon and 6 medusa for 200 points. Really, the issue is no scatter deep striking. It is just too good.

Yeah, no scatter DS on a character and his unit seems just too good. It does sound like the kind of mistake GW would make though. The rumor is that it is not an artefact, which sounds wrong and right at the same time(there was once a restriction on WWP in 3rd edition to one per army, but if it was an artifact, suppliments wouldnt be able to use it. )

 Exergy wrote:


Yeah, no scatter DS on a character and his unit seems just too good. It does sound like the kind of mistake GW would make though. The rumor is that it is not an artefact, which sounds wrong and right at the same time(there was once a restriction on WWP in 3rd edition to one per army, but if it was an artifact, suppliments wouldnt be able to use it. )

No scatter ds is just all kinds of ridiculous. Need a tank killed? drop melta in range. Bonus points for dropping them in close enough that the unit inside can't get out. Want infantry to vanish? Flamers always at the right spot will do that. With no scatter hitting 5-6 models with a single flamer doesn't seem far fetched.

 Exergy wrote:

Yeah, no scatter DS on a character and his unit seems just too good.

And yet somehow Dante hasn't been in a winning army since...well, ever.

As for D-scythes, is anyone all that worried about 3 D-scythes that you know are coming 1-4 turns ahead of time?

+1. Lot of sky is falling in the thread.

It's also worth mentioning that Venoms can be purchased as Fast Attack and have the deep strike ability. So you can purchase venom upgrade it to two Splinter Cannons, and have 12 4+ poison shots and it can carry 5 Firedragons w/ a Exarch w/ Fast shot.

All of that comes in at 200 points.

Fire Dragons have Battle Focus.

So you don't even really need to be super near the target with the venom as they could possibly disembark, run then shoot at the target.

Just a random thought, would it not be worth deep striking in a plain old guardian or kabby squad with 20 members. That many shots at rapid fire range is nothing to scoff at. Lob a few Spiritseers in the squad and shriek anything you are worried about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
It's also worth mentioning that Venoms can be purchased as Fast Attack and have the deep strike ability. So you can purchase venom upgrade it to two Splinter Cannons, and have 12 4+ poison shots and it can carry 5 Firedragons w/ a Exarch w/ Fast shot.

All of that comes in at 200 points.

Fire Dragons have Battle Focus.

So you don't even really need to be super near the target with the venom as they could possibly disembark, run then shoot at the target.

Seems amusing. I wonder, can you summon from within a transport? Toss a load of Spiritseers and warlocks in some venoms.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Yeah, no scatter DS on a character and his unit seems just too good.

And yet somehow Dante hasn't been in a winning army since...well, ever.

Dante doesnt give DS to things, and doesnt his only work with other blood angels with jump packs? Can they take mass flamers that are AP2 and inflict ID on a 6? Can they do it all for around the price of Dante Alone?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

As for D-scythes, is anyone all that worried about 3 D-scythes that you know are coming 1-4 turns ahead of time?

3? Isnt the minimum wraithguard size 5?



At this point it is just a rumor, but it's a powerful one

Yes 5.

Shingen wrote:
Yes 5.

So it would appear that you can DS them in a raider, but you wont be DSing them in a raider with an attached archon for that non scatter

Lucky me our resident DE player don't see Eldar with bright eyes... But I'm gonna test it! Just once, I promise

In fact... can we imagine that all DTs will become fast attack options (Land Raiders notwithstanding)?

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Yes 5.

So it would appear that you can DS them in a raider, but you wont be DSing them in a raider with an attached archon for that non scatter

yes, so you DS them on foot with the WWP

 Exergy wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Yes 5.

So it would appear that you can DS them in a raider, but you wont be DSing them in a raider with an attached archon for that non scatter

yes, so you DS them on foot with the WWP

Well yes, but without the raider as cheap armor and mobility

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Yes 5.

So it would appear that you can DS them in a raider, but you wont be DSing them in a raider with an attached archon for that non scatter

yes, so you DS them on foot with the WWP

Well yes, but without the raider as cheap armor and mobility

If you really want the Raider for later, you can always DS an empty raider nearby to pick them up after the first flaming. Frankly sounds a little involved for a suicide unit. You could also just flat out a raider to go pick them up.

 Exergy wrote:

As for D-scythes, is anyone all that worried about 3 D-scythes that you know are coming 1-4 turns ahead of time?

3? Isnt the minimum wraithguard size 5?

On the bright side, fewer wave serpents.

Do we know if the wwp allows a unit to ds without scatter or just allow a unit that can already ds to not scatter?

Well I mean from what I understand Raiders get some sort of intertial guidance similar to Drop Pods, so yeah. I don't think DSing is a issue.

We don't know yet though, but man I hope there's a restriction.

This is going to be frustrating to deal with, but, live and learn I guess.

Might sell my Guard for some anti-deepstriking Tau now, lol.

 Frankenberry wrote:
This is going to be frustrating to deal with, but, live and learn I guess.

Might sell my Guard for some anti-deepstriking Tau now, lol.

Early warning override is great but it is by no means perfect. Drop down 2 inches away from your opponent with no scatter and see if a riptide wants to chance putting a pie plate on your head, 2d6 - 3 scatter over your own troops might not be worth it. Also you can always avoid line of sight from the riptide and not have to worry. Broadsides are not always taking EWO in favor of target locks and skyfire. But if a broadside unit does have EWO, they would only kill 2 wraith guard and then you would burn them to a crisp. Whats more, if braodsides are pointed at wraiths, they are not pointed at those paper airplane venoms, allowing you more time to move up the field.

You don't need to get out the raider to shoot so who cares if they blow the raider up? The wg just disembark and fire normally.

Is this all confirmed? It sounds like Eldar are going to town with being topdog.

I'd like at least some restriction, say only Codex.DE models may embark on Raiders and Venoms...not ideal and defies the point of battle brothers (I mandate that the Allies Matrix should have never been made, certain armies just get shafted - especially if an army does not allow CtA allies) but it would put a damper on Eldar plans.

Then again, if it is all confirmed, as someone said earlier, fewer Wave Serpents to deal with..

So only a couple Scytheguard can fire if they deepstrike with a character (as, even if they get battlefocus, they can't use it with a DE character in their unit).

If they drop in a Raider, they scatter (can't have a Character, unless Riaders have 11 Transport Capacity or more).

And this combo comes in on normal reserves, t2 at the earliest.

Ugly, but doesn't seem to be meta-changing. Scytheguard can already deepstrike similarly using Corsairs.

Fluff-wise, why are Eldar and DE even battle brothers at all? I've never understood that.

The fluff I've read indicates they have developed as seperate races since the fall, which is a long old time. It's a bit like mixing lawful/neutral good and chaotic evil together and saying "yeah, this'll work!" - just feels weird.

Do you have siblings? I can hate mine more passionately than I'll ever hate you. But if you threaten one, I'll kick your ass.

(The 'you' here is generic, of course)

Read the valador book and you'll see they work together quite happily albeit the dark Eldar laughing at their expense a lot.

I love how this is being talked about as if it is more powerful than wave serpent spam. It is not, it just means we might possibly see more variety from eldar/dark eldar players than we have in the past.

30 fire dragons in raiders only means 3 really dead units...and 30 dead fire dragons.

 ductvader wrote:
30 fire dragons in raiders only means 3 really dead units...and 30 dead fire dragons.

Not even that if they are in cover.

 Leth wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
30 fire dragons in raiders only means 3 really dead units...and 30 dead fire dragons.

Not even that if they are in cover.

True, statistically, 30 fire dragons only puts about 11 wounds on "any T6- unit" in 5+ cover

Delakar wrote:
Fluff-wise, why are Eldar and DE even battle brothers at all? I've never understood that.

The fluff I've read indicates they have developed as seperate races since the fall, which is a long old time. It's a bit like mixing lawful/neutral good and chaotic evil together and saying "yeah, this'll work!" - just feels weird.

but both are extremely xenophobic and are the members of the proud, arragant eldar race/legacy. There is lots of fluff of them working together, so while they might not like each other so much they seem to be happy to work together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frozocrone wrote:
Is this all confirmed? It sounds like Eldar are going to town with being top dog.

Arent they already topdog? Losing the possibility to take an allied baron and beast star will probably hurt them a bit, but they will probabably gain some junk they can use.

In any event it is looking like DE will be about where they were or worse. A weak codex with a few choices that make eldar more interesting.

 ductvader wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
30 fire dragons in raiders only means 3 really dead units...and 30 dead fire dragons.

Not even that if they are in cover.

True, statistically, 30 fire dragons only puts about 11 wounds on "any T6- unit" in 5+ cover

And then charges and metla bombs them.

I think this would be an interesting strategy but not impossible to get around. Looks like my Incinerators will have to put in their time even more. I expect to see more a rise in flamer use since Raiders are open topped. Hello S6 Flamers!

Shingen wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
30 fire dragons in raiders only means 3 really dead units...and 30 dead fire dragons.

Not even that if they are in cover.

True, statistically, 30 fire dragons only puts about 11 wounds on "any T6- unit" in 5+ cover

And then charges and metla bombs them.

Causing one more wound.

 Exergy wrote:

Frozocrone wrote:
Is this all confirmed? It sounds like Eldar are going to town with being top dog.

Arent they already topdog? Losing the possibility to take an allied baron and beast star will probably hurt them a bit, but they will probabably gain some junk they can use.

In any event it is looking like DE will be about where they were or worse. A weak codex with a few choices that make eldar more interesting.

Oh, well what I meant by that was what can Eldar do with the DE Codex to make them even more powerful xD I'm not sure about Eldar being the 'best' army, IMO I would probably give that to DropPod armies, but we can have our different opinions.

 Desubot wrote:
[D-cannons and vibro cannons are heavy no?

Moving passed 6" in a venom would make em snap which is a slight bit usless.

Yes they are Heavy.

Hollismason wrote:
They're relentless.

No, they do not.

Since this never got addressed properly.

D-Cannons and Vibro Cannons are Artillery, so cannot embark into Transports. I don't know if the WWP has any permission/denial regarding Artillery units.

 Happyjew wrote:


D-Cannons and Vibro Cannons are Artillery, so cannot embark into Transports. I don't know if the WWP has any permission/denial regarding Artillery units.

We dont know much, the WWP might just be a rumor. But can an IC join an Artillery unit?

Yeah, I join my farseer to Vaul's Wrath all the time.

Shingen wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
30 fire dragons in raiders only means 3 really dead units...and 30 dead fire dragons.

Not even that if they are in cover.

True, statistically, 30 fire dragons only puts about 11 wounds on "any T6- unit" in 5+ cover

And then charges and metla bombs them.

If they survive a turn of close range shooting since they cant assault the turn they arrive from reserves.

Come on, stop talking about this bs combo already.

It's worse than 3 Falcons, get over it already.

The WWP is definitely not BS, if you work an army around it.

Delakar wrote:
Fluff-wise, why are Eldar and DE even battle brothers at all? I've never understood that.

The fluff I've read indicates they have developed as seperate races since the fall, which is a long old time. It's a bit like mixing lawful/neutral good and chaotic evil together and saying "yeah, this'll work!" - just feels weird.

IIRC the fluff depicts the Eldar and Dark Eldar considering themselves above the other species, they only disagree with the other Eldar's methods.

I think this is a bad tactic, and a waste of points.

1 if rumors are correct you do not need the transport to deepstrike, as the transports went up in cost why bother taking the transport?

2 wraithguard are probably being taken for d-scythes or the 1 shot distort, waste of points. You can take medusa which have rumored str4 ap 2 templates for 25 points each, or scourges with heatlances for 31pts each. No idea why you would take wraithguard. Aren't 5 wraithguard with d-scythes around 210 pts by themselves? archon w/ WWP is at least 105pts without anything else... sounds pretty bad.

artillery cannot move and shoot, so they would sit there a turn before firing...

And for the points you can probably do more just sticking to wave serpents with FD, or DA, seer councils, bladestorming jetbikes, wraithknights..

honestly I don't see how people think this is better, is it newer? yes, is it better? no.

Yup, the WWP is waiting for a proper build around it, but clearly it's not going to be D-scythes.

It needs to go with the one unit your opponent would never want to see reach its destination.

One unit that will totally utterly feth him up with good efficiency if in the right position.

Probably one of the main reasons the BeastPack was limited in size

Hollismason wrote:
It's also worth mentioning that Venoms can be purchased as Fast Attack and have the deep strike ability. So you can purchase venom upgrade it to two Splinter Cannons, and have 12 4+ poison shots and it can carry 5 Firedragons w/ a Exarch w/ Fast shot.

All of that comes in at 200 points.

Fire Dragons have Battle Focus.

So you don't even really need to be super near the target with the venom as they could possibly disembark, run then shoot at the target.

This could be an option.
If you look at a Raider, a Seer Council or Wraithguard would be an option too.

I'm more interested in a blob of sslyth.

morgoth wrote:
Yup, the WWP is waiting for a proper build around it, but clearly it's not going to be D-scythes.

It needs to go with the one unit your opponent would never want to see reach its destination.

One unit that will totally utterly feth him up with good efficiency if in the right position.

Probably one of the main reasons the BeastPack was limited in size

Exactly. Scytheguard may not be the it, but a star of 10 Wraithblades with Axe/Shield might be. Add a few Spiritseers to try getting Protect and/or Invisibility and simply go to work.

That's just off the top of my head, there'll probably be a lot more options with the new DE.

Apparently it does not in fact grant actually Deepstrike, but instead augments a vehicle that is deep striking.
So no deep striking no scatter Wraithguard.However it is still possible to deep strike them, disembark or get lucky on a roll.No word yet on the scatter though, the Raider model is kind of big so that'll be a issue.You can most certainly though stick him with a unit of Fire Dragons and Deep Strike without Scatter.


You can in fact get Venoms as Fast Attack so just take them with splinter cannons and fire off 12 Poisoned 4+ rolls and 5 Meltaguns for 180 points.

What about its interaction with GoI ?

morgoth wrote:
What about its interaction with GoI ?

None if this is a vehicle upgrade. Embarked models can't cast GoI.

Mavnas wrote:

morgoth wrote:
What about its interaction with GoI ?

None if this is a vehicle upgrade. Embarked models can't cast GoI.

It is either a vehicle upgrade or is rumored to require the IC to be in a vehicle

Well, either way, no GOI shenanigans then.

Mavnas wrote:
Well, either way, no GOI shenanigans then.

well there was a rumor that it just granted no scatter DS, which would have more shenanigans, including of the GOI variety

Correct me if I'm wrong here "tyranid player not really used to transport rules" with a dedicated transport, only the unit who purchased it can start in it correct? So if raiders are dedicated how can a unit of wraithguard start in one?

in the new codexes for 7th one+ of the normal dedicated transport options are also listed as fast attack options as non-dedicated transports.

so if you can ally with that faction you can get access to their transports.

Of course this means you take an Allied detachment with most like 1 hq, 1 troops, and get 1 transport.

or a cad with 1 hq 1 troop and can get 3 transports.

so not exactly cheap.

TBH it does not help wraithguard, but it does help assault units in the eldar codex that do not have access to open topped transports they can assault out of after disembarking.

Actually you can just take the Dark Eldar Formation and take up to 6 Fast Attack. That's pretty much, I get to take a transport for whatever doesn't have one and needs one with the addition that the Archon and Court is kind of bad ass.

That's the problem I'm having. Unless that formation states you can't have 6 Raiders which I highly doubt.

So it's more like

Archon w/ Court w/ Whatever crazy gak they get in a Deep Striking non scattering Raider (Medusa's Eye ST4 AP2 template, or whatever )

or

Archon w/ WWP
w/ Whatever
Raider that deep strikes and doesn't scatter

2 Troops

Fast Attack
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
or
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider

blaktoof wrote:
TBH it does not help wraithguard, but it does help assault units in the eldar codex that do not have access to open topped transports they can assault out of after disembarking.

All of which suck donkey balls, so yeah. big deal.

I'm not convinced that turn 2+ deepstriking raiders are particularly scary compared to drop pod lists.

I might be more worried about 15+ venom lists backed up by blasters, depending on my own army composition.

I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.
They are cheap enough now where I'd consider sticking them in bunkers to make some anchors for me on the table.

The reavers got a huge buff. HoW can hit vehicles, the old ability could not. If the number of upgrades remain the same, a big charging reaver unit does 3D6 S6 hits, supposedly with rending. That's going to put a good sized dent into most invisible units.

Best of all, those beautiful mandrake models aren't totally worthless anymore.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The reavers got a huge buff. HoW can hit vehicles, the old ability could not. If the number of upgrades remain the same, a big charging reaver unit does 3D6 S6 hits, supposedly with rending. That's going to put a good sized dent into most invisible units.

Certainly changes them though as they lose their fly by attack. They now are the 40k version of a chariot. Very fragile, charge in and if they make it through overwatch will do massive damage, but then will take massive damage in return.

morgoth wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
TBH it does not help wraithguard, but it does help assault units in the eldar codex that do not have access to open topped transports they can assault out of after disembarking.

All of which suck donkey balls, so yeah. big deal.

This so many times

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

Heat Lances are -2 strength meltaguns with the Lance rule. AV14 becomes 12, and you need a 7 to pen, just like a normal meltagun. It's more than good enough.
Fire Dragons are 110 points for 5. Scourge are 80 points, + guns. Rumors have the costs for guns dropping. The mobility means that anyone who survives gets a 2nd shot. Same isn't true for fire dragons.

I won't be throwing firedragons into venoms. You just don't want the venom point blank like you need the melta guns. I can't actually think of anything I'd want in the venom now. I might be running my empty as gun boats, and then picking up units when needed. Wish I had better access to template weapons in 5 man squads. Too bad the DE template just dropped to S3.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

Heat Lances are -2 strength meltaguns with the Lance rule. AV14 becomes 12, and you need a 7 to pen, just like a normal meltagun. It's more than good enough.
Fire Dragons are 110 points for 5. Scourge are 80 points, + guns. Rumors have the costs for guns dropping. The mobility means that anyone who survives gets a 2nd shot. Same isn't true for fire dragons.
I won't be throwing firedragons into venoms. You just don't want the venom point blank like you need the melta guns. I can't actually think of anything I'd want in the venom now. I might be running my empty as gun boats, and then picking up units when needed. Wish I had better access to template weapons in 5 man squads. Too bad the DE template just dropped to S3.
-Matt

Against AV14 the heatlance is just as good as a melta, this is true. But against AV10-12 it is -2 strength. Melta has a good chance of penning AV10-12 from outside melta range. A heat lance has a small prayer by comparison.
A scourge with a haywire blaster is looking like 31 points. Most of the weapons + scourge are 26-31 points which is considerably more than the 22 a firedragon costs. 1/5 of the scourges cost less but also are kinda mute, bullet catchers

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

Heat Lances are -2 strength meltaguns with the Lance rule. AV14 becomes 12, and you need a 7 to pen, just like a normal meltagun. It's more than good enough.
Fire Dragons are 110 points for 5. Scourge are 80 points, + guns. Rumors have the costs for guns dropping. The mobility means that anyone who survives gets a 2nd shot. Same isn't true for fire dragons.

I won't be throwing firedragons into venoms. You just don't want the venom point blank like you need the melta guns. I can't actually think of anything I'd want in the venom now. I might be running my empty as gun boats, and then picking up units when needed. Wish I had better access to template weapons in 5 man squads. Too bad the DE template just dropped to S3.

-Matt

The Scourges are not only cheap but they will also be able to deep strike! Now you can drop those heat lances right down on top of whatever needs to die.

Heat lances go further than meltaguns.

It looks like this codex was built with Battlebrothers in mind seriously there's some crazy gak in this codex that's all LD based and meant to just meld perfectly with Telepathy driven Eldar Armies.

What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

It's the same discussion as before, except now you're also wasting a Wave Serpent.

Not points efficient at all.

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

I think it's pretty clear.

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

This is my exact plan. I have a tournament this weekend, but after that... I'll be trying it out.

I may throw a spiritseer in there too, just for some psychic shriek, or other telepathic fun.

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

What stops it?

An Archon+Wraithguard do not fit inside a raider. They need a transport with 11 transport capacity. So a waveserpant not a raider. If you DS the waveserpent, then you need to disembark, where as if you DS the raider you can stay on board and fire over the rail. A DE tantalus DSing could be super fun. 7wraithguard+archon+seerer with telepethy. Drop down and kill 3 units. Expensive though.

WWP grants DS+No scatter for the bearer, their unit, and any transport they are on.

morgoth wrote:

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

It's the same discussion as before, except now you're also wasting a Wave Serpent.

Not points efficient at all.

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

I think it's pretty clear.

Thanks for the quote. No book on hand.

I'm not saying its definitely a great idea, but its certainly not a waste. Being able to drop the serpent on an objective or behind rear armor and deliver the wraithguard to their intended target feels like a pretty good utilization of points.

Anyway, its probably good to be able to deploy a serpent on turn two or three, at that point you get to react to whatever the opponent is doing instead of having to anticipate it on turn one.

Well, at least its a fun gimmick.