Inspired by that "best job you've had" thread. I'm in a rut, as i always am it seems
When you left education, or any other point in your life tbh, did you/ could you actually believe you would be doing what you 'do' for the rest of your life?
I ask because i wanted to have some kind of direction or reassurance by the time i hit 30. I'm not there yet mind! I did some "travelling" for 3 months and it certainly helped my thinking, and not my wallet. I've never "moved out" and don't have "qualifications". Actually right now, i don't have a job.
The strange thing is, i do like just doing the things i enjoy (sport dedicated, xbox), and never having enough time to do everything. I remain focussed on that, and careers/ work/ education, never really get much of my focus. I just find it impossible to imagen a life which is different from what i do now. In my experience, hearing from and watching others, it's primarily luck that has people in a position of happiness/ content that i'm jealous of. (except one or two who i know worked hard).
It may just be my upbringing/ pressure of parents of get educated, get job, get mortgage, get kids lifestyle, that i feel like i'm doing something/ life wrong.
I don't have any interests that are viable to work in; low wage and pure chance of having good work buddies. I like my local area, it has what i want/ need, friends, etc. But i know for certain this can all change, by sport can come to an end through injury as an example.
So i ask, as with the initial question, have you followed any sort of path with your life? Have things turned out well randomly for no reason? Did you feel lost once as do i?
That last question is quite laughable to type
As you are under 30 you, more than any other generation, have been bombarded with an array of messages that you are in someway special and are just awaiting that moment for your chance to shine.
No one tells you that even with hardwork you may never achieve your goals BUT that it is okay to aspire but not succeed.
No one has told you It really is okay to tread a well worn path.
But if you do want something more you had better do something yourself and make sacrifices.
But life, in general is pretty dull, its up to you what you make of it.
You are stuck in your comfort zone and too afraid to get out of it. I don't blame you, your comfort zone is pretty comfortable.
What I did to get me out of my comfort zone is, I packed up everything I owned and moved across the country where I had no support network. When Imoved I had no job, a beat-up car full of old stuff, a rental agreement on an apartment where I was going, and a wife in ill-health.
That put me in my discomfort zone, and I fundamentally grew as a person because of it. Now, every two years or so I try to do things to shake me out of my comfort zone and involve some level of risk.
There are multiple things that have happened "randomly" that have improved my life.
None of which would have occurred by being apathetic or without some kind of intrinsic drive or motivation. Those three things that don't get much of your attention? Unless you're content living with your parents for the majority of your life and being generally listless, you'll need to give a gak about them eventually.
Or you can move to the U.S., be apathetic and listless, and live off the people that do care about education, work, and their careers.
Just gotta work. Doesnt matter if you have no passion or drive to work. You just have to nail down and do it. Get into a working routine now before you get too old.
You will have nothing and be nowhere unless you make yourself get out there and do something.
I have a friend that was like you. Known him since I was 10. For years he just woke up, played video games, hung out and did whatever. He said it was awesome etc all the time but one day he reflected and thought about how sad it all was. It got to the point apparently where he felt so bored and unfulfilled that that he had to force himself to play video games otherwise he would just sit there all day. You dont want to be that guy.
Granted im still young, but I have no passion, or anything like that. I just get up and do the thing that I know will get me somewhere and thats work. It sucks, really work does suck. But it wont suck forever. After 3 years of working more than full time its finally caught up to me how important it is and how far its got me.
Just do something. Get into a routine. Appreciate it. Hopefully get somewhere and then die. Or you can skip it all and do nothing, then die. One will make you happier than the other. In moderation of course.
But the longer you sit there the worse it will get. Working lets you meet people, those people have jobs and more importantly know other people with jobs. People talk and know other working people. I guess what im saying is video games wont get you the connections you need to get anywhere, just enough connections for another game. You want connections to get better jobs and success. You need to be around people who are successful. Most successful people actually do crap. If you want success find the most successful person you know and imitate them. That means doing stuff.
Success wont fall on your lap. So get into routine, stick by routines and work hard. Dont need to go to uni or anything, unless you have passion. If you are like me and dont, then working is your best option, and just keep working.
Thats my advice anyway. It sucks, but its gotta be done. It wont come to you.
But im only 20, people here are much older and know more than I. But as someone your age thats my advice.
I just dropped out of college, and became the fourth generation of my family to do so.
Do I plan on furthering my education? feth yeah! Do I plan on doing it soon? Feth yeah! Do I plan on doing what I will be educated in for the rest of my life? I don't know.
Be brave. Be bold. Take risks. Fall in love. Kill some terrorists. Turn into a jet. Whatever.
People change jobs, possibly career paths, I have had 3 changes in the "type of job" and worked for 5 different companies and even stayed home for a couple years to raise kids.
I had got extra schooling with various certificates and specialized in various software in my off-time so have created many options and opportunities.
By pursuing interests and getting something tangible for each has increased my happiness and marketing myself for other jobs I want.
Heck, learning new hobby skills like recently air-brush has made me very happy with the results.
Listing these other skills shows you have a well rounded life and can spark interest in you as a person to others.
I do not see the "same life" happening unless you truly find it rewarding "as-is".
Learning new things and finding joy in the new, helps mark the time rather than "same-old" making the time slip by.
Make a list of things you are interested in or want to learn more or be a part of, figure out the steps needed to get good at each of those goals. Prioritize what looks the most rewarding and "do-able". Little steps at a time give quick reward and build-up confidence to go for the "reach-goals".
You have found the right amount of risk when you feel a little bit like a fraud when you land that new job or accreditation: you feel you do not know quite enough and need to learn more quickly before you are "found-out". Very exciting.
Good Luck.
<edit> Re-reading OP post: Luck was more a factor starting out, as I landed further experience and accreditation, I got more opportunities at what I wanted. Find jobs / training you like, that is more hobby than work and you can find a better life than you initially imagined.
eskimo wrote: I just find it impossible to imagen a life which is different from what i do now. In my experience, hearing from and watching others, it's primarily luck that has people in a position of happiness/ content that i'm jealous of. (except one or two who i know worked hard).
This is your problem. You are part of a generation who prizes natural talent or circumstance over hard work and then when you don't succeed, you can't accept responsibility because it is due to things outside your control.
Your attitude that you assume people who have what you don't 'lucked' into it when you have no way of knowing that and are jealous of it is a destructive attitude to take.
Basically those praised for being smart, don't try as hard and shut down when they come up against a barrier or hard work. Those praised for working hard are more willing to try harder tasks and work harder to overcome obstacles.
If you sit around expecting things to change due to luck, you will never see change or happiness because often 'Luck' manifests due to effort and failure. Failing 8 times can lead to one success. Trying 0 times can never lead to success. So what appears to you as luck is usually a string of hidden effort which you are dismissing in order to insulate yourself.
Sorry dude, everything is within your control and your success and happiness is directly in your own hands by the level of effort you put into it.
I'm 25 right now and posted in the other thread that the best job I ever had is the one I have right now.
All through university I was picturing myself in some kind of office position doing something related to HR. However, I could never visualize the transition between university and landing that 9-5 full time position. I couldn't picture that period of time, because I didn't want to.... it sucks. It involved me going to a bunch of interviews and getting rejected due to lack of experience - eventually settling for a temp job that paid minimum wage.
This brutal, low paying temp job was my gateway to an awesome position in the company. My advice to you is to step outside your comfort zone and try and get a seemingly crappy job in a decent company. The opportunities you actually want will eventually present themselves. The mortgage, kids, soccer practice, etc life style is not for everyone - there are many ways to live a fulfilling life, but chilling on xbox and playing some sports on the weekend may leave you with regrets down the road.
I'm really good at programming, and I understand computer science to a point that is beyond the majority of my peers.
I hate computers. People seldom believe me, but I really do. My biggest problem is that everything I want to do leads down the path of minimum wage or is so anachronistic that there's no call for it outside of some far fetched and romanticized dream of the collapse of the modern world, so I plug away at it, and I mean, it DOES have it's perks. It's just not what I wished I was doing, but that's life.
You do sound like most of the typical people I've spoken with who don't have some burning passing for something within the range of age groups of just out of high school on up to their mid 30s.\
It may just be my upbringing/ pressure of parents of get educated, get job, get mortgage, get kids lifestyle, that i feel like i'm doing something/ life wrong.
You know, it might be interesting to actually ask some of the people who you see succeeding how they succeeded. Usually, it involves a grotesque amount of determination and perseverance.
To land my first big professional job, I applied to 43 places and interviewed at 15, over the course of 2 months and several hundred miles. I finally landed a teaching position outside of my area of certification, and had to commute over an hour and a half to get to it from my residence- which couldn't be moved, because I was living wth my wife and she was going to college nearby. I'm still incredibly thankful to whatever deities had mercy on me and kept me from dying by driving off of the road at those hours every day.
That year was awful professionally, far worse than the last where I was doing two part time jobs and living with my parents. But the year after, I halved the commute, and landed a position in about half the time- and stayed there for 5 years. Each position after that has become easier to get, and paid more.
I'd also advise you to decide what matters to you most in life. To me, it was family, and once that priority was set, I was able to structure the rest of my life around that. Once you've done that, it becomes much easier to define success- a word with a different connotation to every one of us. Best of luck to you! Oh, and I am 31. My life alters daily, and will continue to do so, but I love it. I'd gladly stay on this path.
I like my current job enough to keep doing it forever, but I had to make some mistakes and learn some hard lessons before I was able to appreciate the job.
I think for many people what settles them and refocuses them to an extent is having kids or some other dependent. When you've got to think about someone else in a serious way, you have to put away some of the more unrealistic things you might have pined for and get down to making a living and getting stuff sorted out. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, despite what a lot of counter culture particularly tries to put across. Being a carer or a parent is one of the most important jobs there is, if not the single most important.
eskimo wrote: When you left education, or any other point in your life tbh, did you/ could you actually believe you would be doing what you 'do' for the rest of your life?
No, got into a job a bit to the left of what I went to school for, cool opportunity all the same.
I ask because i wanted to have some kind of direction or reassurance by the time i hit 30.
Funny, I felt the best age was 28: old enough to have a better handle on who you are, a bit smarter, and young enough to not be creepy going to the "younger" clubs.
I'm not there yet mind! I did some "travelling" for 3 months and it certainly helped my thinking, and not my wallet. I've never "moved out" and don't have "qualifications". Actually right now, i don't have a job.
Get something, even if it is temp or part time in the "meantime". The nastiest question in an interview is when they ask what you did between school / jobs. It will also make the parents happier to see you trying.
The strange thing is, i do like just doing the things i enjoy (sport dedicated, xbox), and never having enough time to do everything.
The leisure time is that jam-packed? Doubtful. Add up the time spent to and from an event and time spent playing.
I remain focussed on that, and careers/ work/ education, never really get much of my focus.
At some point supporting yourself will be important. Your parents have been working hard and would be justified in being jealous funding your lifestyle.
I just find it impossible to imagen a life which is different from what i do now.
Have you done work anywhere? Tried volunteering? Go to a temp agency? Wander the world during the day as people work and see what is out there? Community service? Talk to employment agencies or college / trade groups? It will all give ideas.
In my experience, hearing from and watching others, it's primarily luck that has people in a position of happiness/ content that i'm jealous of. (except one or two who i know worked hard).
Funny this, it appears to most of us as luck, but it is when "opportunity meets preparation". Meaning, luck happens all the time, having the ability to seize the moment and close the deal is NOT luck.
It may just be my upbringing/ pressure of parents of get educated, get job, get mortgage, get kids lifestyle, that i feel like i'm doing something/ life wrong.
Well, it is correct to feel something "wrong" with the situation: your parents are looking at you of what is your next step? It does not have to be traditional changes but something that gives progress and meaning to your life.
I don't have any interests that are viable to work in; low wage and pure chance of having good work buddies.
Can you try to develop other interests? I REALLY liked games on the PC and had a problem with "extended memory error" preventing it from running (LONG time ago) and it evolved to a point I got an MCSE just for fun and did some consulting on the side... hobbies can help out with jobs and money in general.
I like my local area, it has what i want/ need, friends, etc
It is acceptable to be happy with your community. It IS possible to be involved more and you could leverage getting a job in the area by being known and dependable.
But i know for certain this can all change, by sport can come to an end through injury as an example.
Anything can swoop-in and set you back. Develop skills, make learning in general a priority (does not have to be formal education). Just plain-old get good at things.
So i ask, as with the initial question, have you followed any sort of path with your life?
Yes, where I got my first job, I expanded those skills and became more "professional" while developing other "cool" skills that assist.
Have things turned out well randomly for no reason?
"Out of the blue" calls happened for no apparent reasons BUT I kept up contacts, put out resumes, stayed on good terms with recruiters, kept looking at the job offerings out there, talked to my old professors and they had lots of help to offer.
Did you feel lost once as do i?
I never had the moment of "I know what I will do for the rest of my life!!" but I always had that question: "how can I make things better than they are now?". That included the job I was in at the time or how my life was going.
That last question is quite laughable to type
"Lost" is more like not being in touch with how you feel. Need to do something... but what? Do what you think is right.
You say you are "happy" but the lethargy and contentment with what you are doing now at the expense of your parents is a bit tough, sure there is not some mild depression preventing experiencing life a bit more?
Get out there, I keep finding cooler things as I go along and life out there is more strange and exciting than anything I can dream up in my house.
It's an interesting question.
I knew what I wanted to do all the way through high school and into college. A year and a half into college I realized I wanted to do something else, so I changed majors, finished school, got a good internship and a job for a few years. They I changed direction again a bit (same general area, but different field) switched to another job for a few more years. Then we had kids and when we looked at my wife's income and personality and mine, it was clear I'd be the at-home dad, which I've been for almost 4 years and I'm only in my early 30's.
I have no doubt that there's going to be other jobs and possibly further education in the future and when that time comes, I'll make a decision and do it.
All this to say 3 things.
1) You're life is going to change alot. Just the current economy means that if you have the "same life for the rest of your life" you will be the exception. Most economists and sociologists will tell you that the new norm is that a person will very likely not only have multiple jobs, but multiple careers throughout their life.
2) You've got to pick a direction and head that way. Whether that means staying where you are and busting your but for a slim chance of promotion, or picking something new and running it down, it's a tough world out there and though you might fail, you certainly won't get anywhere by waiting for something to happen.
3) Here's the tough love: ditch the freaking Xbox and put your sports in the "recreation" role they deserve. If career/work/education aren't getting the focus they need than get rid of what's getting in their way. I freely admit that much of success can be attributed to luck and one's social resources (which are largely fixed at birth), but I guarantee you your "lucky" friends were at least out there, and not giving their xbox higher prioirity than their "real life".
I would like to point out that even though I forecast change and suggest personal choice, there is a real thread that connects all the things that I did. My initial career choice led me to the college that ended up training me for something different, my first job brought me into contact with the sister organization that gave me my second, etc. Sure some luck (or providence…) was involved, but I was out there doing something and that something led to something else…
You'll never find the something else without doing something.
Sorry, but it's rarely luck. And yes, I think we all feel lost at some point.
I'm 26 now. I had worked 10-30 hours a week doing odd jobs (dog grooming, golf courses, Applebee's) from age 15-20 until I moved to California with my family. When I got here I had zero job prospects, searched hard for a job for about 2 months then basically gave up and did what you're doing for two years until I finally got a job where I'm currently at, which is a Workers' Compensation Insurance firm. I started at just above minimum wage and my job was to alphabetize documents. Seriously, that's what I did for 30 hours a week.
Eventually, I worked hard, proved myself and moved up the ladder. Now I have my own cubicle (inspiring, I know) and make almost triple of what I started making at this place. It wasn't luck. It was hard work proving myself to management that I could do the job as good or better than the people who had been in this business for 10-30 years. Now I have a lot of people depending on me to show up to work. It's not exactly my dream job, but what was I going to do, alphabetize documents, play video games or play sports all the time?
And listen, even though I have a full time job, I still have plenty of time for sports and video games. I'm not a big fan of video games anymore, so I defer that time to other endeavors such as painting, etc, but I could easily make time for it. Since working full time, I would argue that I actually have more "free" time now than I did when I stayed home because I'm much better at managing and optimizing my time. Not to mention I don't sleep 10 hours a night anymore.
In retrospect, those two years I spent playing video games, going to the gym and playing sports, I was VERY content. It was awesome. At the time. Now that I look back at it, it was mostly a waste of time. It was not gratifying.
My advice would just be to focus on work or education, not both. I think trying to push both on yourself would just be too overwhelming. You've spent too much time outside of the work/education realm that you'd probably just fall back into what you're doing now. I would recommend just working in your case since education might turn into the "Community College Syndrome" where you're basically just sneaking more free living with your parents while pretending to get a quality education (I did this for about a year too). Working can be awesome. My favorite job actually was working at Applebee's because of the people that worked there. It can be tough at first to find the motivation, but once checks start rolling in and you become depended on, that's when it becomes rewarding.
Lastly, who says you have to find a job and do it for the rest of your life?
To answer your questions in brief: 1. No path, 2. Turned out pretty well, partly random, partly my hard work, 3. Yes.
Employment is someone else using you to make a lot of money that you're never going to see, and then throwing last week's table scraps down at you and your coworkers to fight over.
Living a 'real life' is surrendering to a cruel and broken system. Instead of seeking to labor, seek out what you find fulfilling and do that. We are now seeing in this decade the rise of a new underclass, the precariat, which will force society to shift in a more egalitarian and rational direction, and stop this insane attitude of "WORK IS WORTH."
A basic income or negative income tax scheme is now not only possible but entirely economical, and pressures for that change only increase as more people become disillusioned with the modernist value framework. We will see liberation from toil within our lifetimes.
Of course, that's if we're not overrun by the global neoliberal market agenda and swarms of labor-value destroying immigrants first, though.
I spent 6 years in education after I left school, and still came out without much to show for it, all trying to get into a computing job.
But, I knew I could work IT stuff, and there's usually a job to fall into when one comes around. I got my first real job at 25.
I'm in my early 40s, and have spent probably 6 months of that claiming the dole. All of that time, I was applying for jobs, or doing packing jobs for agencies while I looked.
The thing that kept me looking was "what would the world be like if everyone just downed tools and played games all day?".
No more games, no food, nothing to watch on TV, no internet, nothing.
But then, I'm the sort to donate blood every time they let me. I try to do "my bit".
I gotta go with the "It's no luck." argument here. I worked my ass off to get where I am now. I've not had any hobby besides running when I was younger and getting started and spent most of my day working or gathering more info, attending lectures or additional classes to improve my CV. Fortunately, my gf (at that time, now waifu) was pursuing a similar career and we were able to pull each other up when one of us was down and felt like rock bottom. But it was a TON of work. Blowing sugar. Etc. In the end, though, it paid off, and now that I am in my mid 30s, I am a very high tier job, a loving wife that put through so much crap with me and an awesome daughter.
If you really dive into your career, and if you want to come out high, you have to make sacrifices - big sacrifices. But boy, do they pay off
Sigvatr: There is still an element of luck though. For example being born in a developed nation that is able to offer you the relevant chances. That doesn't minimise your hard work, but I think it is worth acknowledging that those of us born in developed nations are inherently lucky.
There is a lot of luck in a career.
Or, "it's not what you know, but who you know".
People are hired by people, and if there's any chance of favouritism getting into the choice, it will.
My 2nd (I'm on my 3rd) job was a leg-up from a temporary contacting job I had. I was working with a team that ran the contract, and at the end, I got offered a permanent job. I was there for 14 years, and got fairly high into the structure. That ended when the company got bought out, and my team got canned. Good luck/bad luck.
So, it's better to be known than to find it yourself. If people you know know what you can do, they could put you up for a role when it comes around. It's having people doing the work for you that worked for me. That bloke got a £5000 finder-fee when I had been there for 6 months, so it's in their interests, too.
Da Boss wrote: Sigvatr: There is still an element of luck though. For example being born in a developed nation that is able to offer you the relevant chances. That doesn't minimise your hard work, but I think it is worth acknowledging that those of us born in developed nations are inherently lucky.
I would not call this "luck". It's a variable. By calling anything "luck" you surrender all your chances for a change to it. And while certainly applicable in this very case, I can only recommend not using the term "luck" to begin with. Like, a weak mind would say that me meeting my wife would have been luck. A strong mind would say that I positively and consequently improved my chances to meet such a woman by focusing my free time on a special area of interest and thus narrowing the pool of potential partners by the topic. A strong mind aims focuses on a state of mind where you maximize the changing potential to get a desired outcome. If you succeed, you fully attribute the result to your own actions. Likewise, if you lose, you attribute the loss to your own actions, you reflect and try to improve. The entire concept of "luck" outside of trivial situations (i.e.: rolling a dice etc.) is a very comforting idea because you don't have to blame yourself for anything - someone else was lucky, you weren't! In reality, though, that's a loser's attitude. It's a good thing to avoid people thinking that way as they drag others down as well.
There's variables that cannot be influenced, such as where you are born. But if anyone says "I can't become anything, my life sucks because I am born in _____.", then that person has given up and lost his worth. Move on.
Da Boss wrote: Sigvatr: There is still an element of luck though. For example being born in a developed nation that is able to offer you the relevant chances. That doesn't minimise your hard work, but I think it is worth acknowledging that those of us born in developed nations are inherently lucky.
I would not call this "luck". It's a variable. By calling anything "luck" you surrender all your chances for a change to it. And while certainly applicable in this very case, I can only recommend not using the term "luck" to begin with. Like, a weak mind would say that me meeting my wife would have been luck. A strong mind would say that I positively and consequently improved my chances to meet such a woman by focusing my free time on a special area of interest and thus narrowing the pool of potential partners by the topic. A strong mind aims focuses on a state of mind where you maximize the changing potential to get a desired outcome. If you succeed, you fully attribute the result to your own actions. Likewise, if you lose, you attribute the loss to your own actions, you reflect and try to improve. The entire concept of "luck" outside of trivial situations (i.e.: rolling a dice etc.) is a very comforting idea because you don't have to blame yourself for anything - someone else was lucky, you weren't! In reality, though, that's a loser's attitude. It's a good thing to avoid people thinking that way as they drag others down as well.
There's variables that cannot be influenced, such as were you are born. But if anyone says "I can't become anything, my life sucks because I am born in _____.", then that person has given up and lost his worth. Move on.
Okay, now can you explain to us then how exactly you used your hard work, focus, and strong mind to make sure you were born in a developed nation?
By calling anything "luck" you surrender all your chances for a change to it. And while certainly applicable in this very case, I can only recommend not using the term "luck" to begin with.
Oh, I see, so you don't call it luck, though the term is applicable in this case, but for something to be luck, you've let go of any chances to change it, but we shouldn't use luck to begin with. Then this variable thing comes in to play. So if it looks like luck and it quacks like luck it's a variable instead because luck implies it's beyond your control?
Like, a weak mind would say that me meeting my wife would have been luck. A strong mind would say that I positively and consequently improved my chances to meet such a woman by focusing my free time on a special area of interest and thus narrowing the pool of potential partners by the topic. A strong mind aims focuses on a state of mind where you maximize the changing potential to get a desired outcome. If you succeed, you fully attribute the result to your own actions. Likewise, if you lose, you attribute the loss to your own actions, you reflect and try to improve. The entire concept of "luck" outside of trivial situations (i.e.: rolling a dice etc.) is a very comforting idea because you don't have to blame yourself for anything - someone else was lucky, you weren't! In reality, though, that's a loser's attitude. It's a good thing to avoid people thinking that way as they drag others down as well.
I don't see how this relates to being born. I can only assume it's related though and helped out your variables.
There's variables that cannot be influenced, such as where you are born. But if anyone says "I can't become anything, my life sucks because I am born in _____.", then that person has given up and lost his worth. Move on.
Oh there it is. Those things don't help, and were basically unrelated. I thought they were supporting evidence or something. I get it now! So... you think there's a difference between considering it lucky to be born someplace more developed in the world, and considering it a variable beyond your control that was favorable to your own personal outcome?
Sigvatr wrote: I would not call this "luck". It's a variable. By calling anything "luck" you surrender all your chances for a change to it
You don't have the capacity to change anything. Whatever will happen to you is decided by factors that were directly influenced by things that happened before you made your "decision," including your decision. Your 'work ethic' is not chosen, it's a perverse endowment that comes from both mesoscopic social phenomenon like your personal upbringing and macroscopic phenomenon like the normative framework of the country you live in.
All you can control and have possession of is your own mind, which is itself constantly assaulted by outside influences like pain and need, and is powerless to affect your 'material' circumstances in any case.
You earn nothing and deserve nothing for 'your efforts.' It's despicable that you would further feel justified in lording your fortune over others who weren't given the same sickening endowments.
Y'know, I'm technically an old fart (at least around these parts), but I don't really feel like an old fart most of the time. Then I see a post like the previous one and all kinds of old fart thoughts go through my head.
Variables that can be influenced. Variables that cannot be influenced. The latter are extremely rare. Location of birth belongs to the latter. Most others do not.
It's important to not only have a look at what immediately led to any situation, there's more to it. Every situation is influenced by long- and short-term decisions and people mostly focus on the latter as they are easier to get and require little to no reflection.
My point is that there's different mindsets. Luck exists, certainly. Like rolling a dice. Luck, after all. But let's say that someone is in dire need of money and he decides to go to a casino. He loses all of his money because of an unlucky dice roll and then blames bad luck. Loser attitude as in blaming it entirely on outer circumstances. The more important question is: what led to this situation?
I was talking about an entire mindset, not a mere variable that does not matter to begin with.
Sigvatr wrote: I would not call this "luck". It's a variable. By calling anything "luck" you surrender all your chances for a change to it
You don't have the capacity to change anything. Whatever will happen to you is decided by factors that were directly influenced by things that happened before you made your "decision," including your decision. Your 'work ethic' is not chosen, it's a perverse endowment that comes from both mesoscopic social phenomenon like your personal upbringing and macroscopic phenomenon like the normative framework of the country you live in.
All you can control and have possession of is your own mind, which is itself constantly assaulted by outside influences like pain and need, and is powerless to affect your 'material' circumstances in any case.
You earn nothing and deserve nothing for 'your efforts.' It's despicable that you would further feel justified in lording your fortune over others who weren't given the same sickening endowments.
You must have such a happy life knowing you may as well not exist.
Actually, it doesn't. A die lands on the side it will land on because of the way it's thrown and the medium it's traveling through and the cosmic forces acting on it. Well, actually, it lands that way because there's no way, ontologically, for it to have landed without being something that it's not, but that's a bit more esoteric than needs to be discussed for the purposes of this argument.
The point is that everything is "out of your hands." Even your own thoughts are suspect, at least certainly at the ego-level.
Blaming people for their own misfortune is nonsense. Just as you don't control your fortune, they have no control over their misfortune. What you're interested in and informed by is the world of seeming, a place devoid of substance that encourages you and your ilk to prey on the meek. The 'master morality' is what's truly enslaved, as it confirms your gleeful subordination to nature.
Variables that can be influenced. Variables that cannot be influenced. The latter are extremely rare. Location of birth belongs to the latter. Most others do not.
In fact, all variables are uncontrollable. You didn't choose where you were born just as you didn't choose what time to wake up today and you didn't choose to be entangled in discussion with a stranger on the internet. You didn't choose your contentment with fruitless labor just as you didn't choose to chain electron exchanges in a way that your brain interprets as the sensation of touching your keyboard. These things happen, and they don't even happen to you. They happen to the thing you're observing, and to take pride in them is a spiteful folly.
Soladrin wrote: You must have such a happy life knowing you may as well not exist.
I exist entirely separate from the 'physical' human being that I seemingly occupy, just as you do.
Sigvatr wrote: Variables that can be influenced. Variables that cannot be influenced. The latter are extremely rare. Location of birth belongs to the latter. Most others do not.
It's important to not only have a look at what immediately led to any situation, there's more to it. Every situation is influenced by long- and short-term decisions and people mostly focus on the latter as they are easier to get and require little to no reflection.
My point is that there's different mindsets. Luck exists, certainly. Like rolling a dice. Luck, after all. But let's say that someone is in dire need of money and he decides to go to a casino. He loses all of his money because of an unlucky dice roll and then blames bad luck. Loser attitude as in blaming it entirely on outer circumstances. The more important question is: what led to this situation?
I was talking about an entire mindset, not a mere variable that does not matter to begin with.
I mean, I agree with the base premise, I just don't know if I can extend it so far. I think you can reconcile the existence and significance of luck without necessarily using the notion of bad luck as a means of not owning your failures.
This conversation is significant to me (and I'm sorry if I sounded snippy earlier, it is only because of that significance that I did) because I have a tendency to get very angry and morose over factors that are genuinely out of my control that I wish to have a different outcome. While it's important to have a post mortem on things that have gone wrong that you do not seek to wish to repeat, there should be a means to ascribe some quality to those things that are beyond your means to change. Variables is just too clinical for me. To use an example, I would say that I am lucky for having had to endure very little death in terms of friends or family. In reality, this is because they are all healthy people who themselves make safe, healthy choices, but those choices are beyond my ability to control, at least directly. As such, while not pure chaos, because I do choose to be friends (sidestepping that you 'can't choose your family') with those people, it's still a secondary effect of a primary choice made long ago.
Your ultimate question is the reason why I cannot judge your hyopthetical gambler. For all I know, he was in a situation for which the best risk vs. reward actually was to risk all his money for some payout, however slim. Perhaps some poor choice upon his behalf brought him to that point, but he cannot undo that change, even then after learning from it, he still has to deal with the ramifications of what lead him there. In other words, and we might be talking past each other here, though the past is there to learn from, you still live in the present.
Out of curiosity, if the gamble was in fact demonstrably the most guaranteed payout for the time/money spent, and prior to knowing the outcome of the game, would you say that it could be a question of luck at that point, being an unknown outcome based upon potentially non-trivial amounts of entropy?
Just want to put it out there that knowing people isnt always luck. If you dad knows someone who owns a business that got you a job, it isnt luck. It was more than likely a person your dad met through his hard work.
If you work hard you will find contacts for your child to get further in life.
It all starts with work. You dont really get a dice result without rolling the dice first. (or something intelligent I dont know).
Sometimes it may be a guy you met at a bar who owns his business and bam you somewhat randomly got a contact. But more often than not knowing people and them having a good opinion of you enough for it to matter started with work either from your father, or his father and so on. Or yourself.
So if you are struggling for a job, the first person to ask is normally your parents to see if they can find anyone that can help. Not always, but if they worked hard and so on, they will know people.
I also think when luck seems to be involved, you can only make use of it if you have put in the work. It may be luck that your manager broke all 8 of his ankles, but you arent gonna get hired to replace the arachnid you worked for if you didnt work hard previously, the person who worked hard will more than likely capitalize on that luck.
Folks,
Excepting the absolute determinism of Kali, (who for some reason doesn't apply the same determinism to the function of their own mind) you folks are going back and forth over two factors that are not mutually exclusive. The effects of Random Chance and prexisting factors are no less real than the importance of taking individual action. It isn't an either-or proposition. It's both.
I believe very strongly in personal responsibility, but I also have alot of recent life experience that points to the incredible difficulties faced by people (not myself) who have the deck stacked against themselves from the beginning. It's can be a hard balance, but I believe it is important to both push individuals to strive HARD for excellence and at the same time to work to change the situations and correct the effects of things that stack the deck against certain groups of people (or individuals for that matter).
Eilif wrote: Excepting the absolute determinism of Kali, (who for some reason doesn't apply the same determinism to the function of their own mind)
I would apply it to the mind as well, but I hesitate to use that kind of terminology because I don't think the mind represents what we actually are in any case. I reject materialism, and believe reality is ideational, which is core to the distinction between mind and (decidedly non-religious) spirit/soul/etc. but that isn't central to this particular point (regarding 'determinism') so I prefer to speak of it in simpler terms.
Wasn't this thread about a dude who lived with his folks and wanted advice on whether he should be rocking the x-box until he found the job that was suitable for his talents?
Ah well, I'm in for some existentialism tinged with nihilism.
Kali, I agree with you that existence predates essence, and we have no control over the factors we are faced with. That's the luck for you.
And there, I would veer off and posit that once you come into possession of essence (the soul, mind, you) it is then incumbent upon that essence to seek meaning. We all seek success, Even Nietzsche wanted to publish books, although he thought it didn't matter at all. How we respond to our circumstances is what makes us successful or unsuccessful people.
I don't believe our responses are predetermined. We may be influenced by our pasts and informed by it, but the choice is still ours to make.
Gitzbitah wrote: Kali, I agree with you that existence predates essence, and we have no control over the factors we are faced with. That's the luck for you.
And there, I would veer off and posit that once you come into possession of essence (the soul, mind, you) it is then incumbent upon that essence to seek meaning. We all seek success, Even Nietzsche wanted to publish books, although he thought it didn't matter at all. How we respond to our circumstances is what makes us successful or unsuccessful people.
I don't believe our responses are predetermined. We may be influenced by our pasts and informed by it, but the choice is still ours to make.
I think we possess autonomy, but we don't have any means to express that autonomy in the 'material' world. We are observers, not actors, or maybe we are actors, but we cannot act to change "what is", because it would no longer be. What happens, what we observe, is only affected by factors that can affect it, i.e. the material/physical/cosmic forces that shape it. We cannot control those, nor can we control the factors which inform the ego about its preferences. All decisions made by the "person" of John Smith are made for him by the universe he inhabits. The reason we possess autonomy is that we are not the "person" of John Smith, we're the thing observing John.
Gitzbitah wrote: So if I'm understanding you correctly, we have free will, but cannot utilize it to change anything we do, or simply anything about our surroundings?
Free will exists, but it does not empower us with the ability to affect the 'material'.
Similar to a person watching a movie is free to think anything they like, but it will not change the movie?
Sure.
I don't think I've run into this particular philosophy before. It bears similarities to solipsism.
It's derived from Buddhist cosmology but I wouldn't describe it at all as solipsistic. In fact, a necessary component is that something is observing everything, a perfect observer which is definitely external (I would characterize this as the Akashic Record or simply Akasha).
Where then does the motivation to better oneself, or strive to improve come from? Is it just our fate that we believe we have to try?
Improvement in that sense happens to 'the World' (even if it is done to the "person" you seem to be), not you. Personal growth amounts, then, to achieving a more complete understanding of yourself and reality, aiming generally to transcend the vulgar 'material existence' and ascend the hierarchy of being. Instrumentally, I think Buddhism (in particular, the Rinzai school of Zen) offers a lot of advice in how exactly we can go about doing that, as do many Taoist authors.
daedalus wrote: . In reality, this is because they are all healthy people who themselves make safe, healthy choices, but those choices are beyond my ability to control, at least directly. As such, while not pure chaos, because I do choose to be friends (sidestepping that you 'can't choose your family') with those people, it's still a secondary effect of a primary choice made long ago.
Good example. Health of beloved ones is a very important matter for most people - and it's one you can influence as well. If, for example, you know that your brother is a very risky driver, then that normally is your brother's decision and a defeatist like Kali would say "Meh, I can't change it anyway.". A strong mind would try to influence said variable - how, that I cannot say, for this is a hypothetical case and people react differently to different things. But it's a variable you can influence nevertheless.
What is to be important to keep in mind is focus. You need to prioritize variables as you just cannot try to influence all. You would end up being overburdened and thus would, ironically, lose control and thus influence again. Staying with the previous example, imagine you had a terrible relationship with your brother, he cheated your parents out of a large amount of money or worse. Ask yourself if any variable or event would influence yourself to a considerable negative amount - or positive. Then decide on whether you want to assign resources to it or not. That's the way of a successful person. A winner is able to prioritize and rationalise issues and can then react accordingly by properly allocating resources. But the first step is seeing those variables.
Out of curiosity, if the gamble was in fact demonstrably the most guaranteed payout for the time/money spent, and prior to knowing the outcome of the game, would you say that it could be a question of luck at that point, being an unknown outcome based upon potentially non-trivial amounts of entropy?
Gambling in general is a sign of having surrendered as you completely surrender all control. And although I cannot think of a situtation where this would be the best solution, if choosing to do so and winning, the actual event of winning is pure luck. Important: you willingly chose to get yourself in said situation and thus allowed the event to happen. Also important: don't think that it's the best way to solve any situation
My main point is: don't be a defeatist. Winners laugh at defeatists. We gladly use and abuse them, step on them to reach our goals. They highly influencable variables and worth sacrificing for a higher goal. You can influence the world around you to a larger degreee that you'd initially assume. ´This means leaving your comfort zone. It's going to be super tough. But it's worth it.
Enjoyed reading the responses, and those who gave their own experiences very much so. Kali's outlook is something that i often touch on, and i have frequent discussions with a friend about the philosophy of the western society and how it's perceived and what it actually is, etc etc.
I re-read my post back, and it does appear that i have presented a lifestyle of no work, ever. Which isn't actually true. My recent job that i left involved 10 to 14 hour days and i kinda didn't mind it. But my plan to go travelling again for a month never worked out as i didn't find a job quickly enough when i got back from my previous travels to save enough money to not feel poor after doing another trip. The job got to a point where it became slave labour and i knew my plans had been messed up so i lost all drive and wanted to experience my life of sport and xbox again.
The problem i express (with a better explanation), is i enjoy these two things and feel like i'd be happy to do them in the short-term whilst working a crappy job and forget about the future. Which is what i wasn't sure was a good idea.
I also tried to get one of my old jobs back, which would of really made me feel content. The reason i left the job years ago was because i wanted to be able to go do what my friends were doing, and i could never get the time off, ever. It wasn't even a case of one Saturday a month either. I also had to book holiday a year in advance. This was no good for my life then, however it was a secure, local, well paid with sick pay job. However now i'm willing to make the sacrifices for that job now because i have learnt life isn't friendly. I did four years at said job, doing overtime and not one sick day. My boss there wasn't willing to give me a reference when re-applying for the job. This is doesn't help my confidence. I have also done voluntary work in the past, admittedly for a friend's business, but it was still washing windows and counting stuff in the back on my knees.
Every time i think i have the answer and regain motivation, the next day is the opposite.
Mr. Burning wrote:
No one tells you that even with hardwork you may never achieve your goals BUT that it is okay to aspire but not succeed.
This is something i will "inform" my kids, if i ever get to that point, and choose to.
Easy E wrote:You are stuck in your comfort zone and too afraid to get out of it. I don't blame you, your comfort zone is pretty comfortable.
What I did to get me out of my comfort zone is, I packed up everything I owned and moved across the country where I had no support network. When Imoved I had no job, a beat-up car full of old stuff, a rental agreement on an apartment where I was going, and a wife in ill-health.
That put me in my discomfort zone, and I fundamentally grew as a person because of it. Now, every two years or so I try to do things to shake me out of my comfort zone and involve some level of risk.
Can't disagree with you at all. It drives motivation, or motivates a drive, something like that. I have thought about moving, but for me i see it as a drain on money at something which i believe a majorly positive outcome would be down to luck, luck of meeting the "right" people. And travelling is something i wouldn't be able to do, due to lack of money then. However it could still happen if i made that move, but it's that could that frightens me.
Swastakowey wrote:
I have a friend that was like you. Known him since I was 10. For years he just woke up, played video games, hung out and did whatever. He said it was awesome etc all the time but one day he reflected and thought about how sad it all was. It got to the point apparently where he felt so bored and unfulfilled that that he had to force himself to play video games otherwise he would just sit there all day. You dont want to be that guy.
But the longer you sit there the worse it will get. Working lets you meet people, those people have jobs and more importantly know other people with jobs. People talk and know other working people. I guess what im saying is video games wont get you the connections you need to get anywhere, just enough connections for another game. You want connections to get better jobs and success. You need to be around people who are successful. Most successful people actually do crap. If you want success find the most successful person you know and imitate them. That means doing stuff.
That's sad to hear. He's in the position where like me can "get away" with being a bum so there's little drive. Parents who i believe support their child in the wrong ways, or maybe too much financially.
I now realise (it took me a few years), meeting people does open doors. Something i've been working on. I only got back into 40k through an injury, therefore some spare time and wanted to meet new people, this hobby seemed like a good way to do that. I've also tried some other things, but it didn't work out. At least i tried. But what i did discover was that i was more confident that others, going to meets solo, chatting to whoever, and just turning up randomly.
nkelsch wrote:
eskimo wrote: I just find it impossible to imagen a life which is different from what i do now. In my experience, hearing from and watching others, it's primarily luck that has people in a position of happiness/ content that i'm jealous of. (except one or two who i know worked hard).
This is your problem. You are part of a generation who prizes natural talent or circumstance over hard work and then when you don't succeed, you can't accept responsibility because it is due to things outside your control.
Your attitude that you assume people who have what you don't 'lucked' into it when you have no way of knowing that and are jealous of it is a destructive attitude to take.
Interesting article, and it does make perfect sense. I do know people with their own businesses who work hard and they gave up a lot to make it happen, these aren't the people i was referring to though, as it's evident they gave up a lot. It's the people who have been in my situation, but yet out of nowhere they have a job they like, a girl and just appear to be happy. A compulsive liar and another guy who always had excuses and a frequent 30% attendance rate at school. These are however 2 extreme examples, but yet it still pains me.
And yet the biggest problem is, having the direction. I know people can work hard at life to achieve, but unless you know which way you want to go, no matter the amount of hard working is going to get you anywhere.
daedalus wrote:
I'm not sure if it was my upbringing or my unhealthy obsession with bikes that has led me to a state of un-satisfaction in the real world.
Posting following video for relevance of the intro.
Gitzbitah wrote:You know, it might be interesting to actually ask some of the people who you see succeeding how they succeeded. Usually, it involves a grotesque amount of determination and perseverance.
I've had a few conversations with older friends, all in their lower and upper 30's about life and such. One gave up a managerial role at the cut of 10K, another with a degree who said doesn't get paid much to do his office job and didn't seem to enthusiastic about it (but has kids) and the other said he was like me who questioned and confronted people in the work place, who did chance his way into his current job. But he did also make a key point when "letting it out", that he didn't like that some of our friends thought he had it easy. Which i know i was one of those friends, ironically.
Da Boss wrote: When you've got to think about someone else in a serious way, you have to put away some of the more unrealistic things you might have pined for and get down to making a living and getting stuff sorted out. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, despite what a lot of counter culture particularly tries to put across. Being a carer or a parent is one of the most important jobs there is, if not the single most important.
I do think this is where a lack of drive does come from too. I barely even have to look after myself to be perfectly honest. I've noticed changes in people when they become a parent.
Eilif wrote:
2) You've got to pick a direction and head that way. Whether that means staying where you are and busting your but for a slim chance of promotion, or picking something new and running it down, it's a tough world out there and though you might fail, you certainly won't get anywhere by waiting for something to happen.
3) Here's the tough love: ditch the freaking Xbox and put your sports in the "recreation" role they deserve. If career/work/education aren't getting the focus they need than get rid of what's getting in their way. I freely admit that much of success can be attributed to luck and one's social resources (which are largely fixed at birth), but I guarantee you your "lucky" friends were at least out there, and not giving their xbox higher prioirity than their "real life".
Very valid/ good points.
Skinnereal wrote:
Or, "it's not what you know, but who you know".
I think you're confusing intellectualism with pretension.
Oh, and this.
Something about horses.
This has to be a record, Kali is only 33 posts in and already 90% likely to make most people's ignore lists. He's kind of cute though, in the Trololo guy kind of way.
To the OP, my advice is to getcher arse off the couch and get to work or school. One of the worst things in life if wasted potential and looking back at a lifetime of what ifs. If you can honestly say to yourself you gave life your best shot and made the most of what you were given you can be well pleased with yourself.
I used to be in your position and decided to do something with myself, and hit a lot of pitfalls that I learned from. There were more than enough successes and moments I wouldn't trade for anything to make me happy I chose the path I did.
Actually, it doesn't. A die lands on the side it will land on because of the way it's thrown and the medium it's traveling through and the cosmic forces acting on it. Well, actually, it lands that way because there's no way, ontologically, for it to have landed without being something that it's not, but that's a bit more esoteric than needs to be discussed for the purposes of this argument.
The point is that everything is "out of your hands." Even your own thoughts are suspect, at least certainly at the ego-level.
Blaming people for their own misfortune is nonsense. Just as you don't control your fortune, they have no control over their misfortune. What you're interested in and informed by is the world of seeming, a place devoid of substance that encourages you and your ilk to prey on the meek. The 'master morality' is what's truly enslaved, as it confirms your gleeful subordination to nature.
Variables that can be influenced. Variables that cannot be influenced. The latter are extremely rare. Location of birth belongs to the latter. Most others do not.
In fact, all variables are uncontrollable. You didn't choose where you were born just as you didn't choose what time to wake up today and you didn't choose to be entangled in discussion with a stranger on the internet. You didn't choose your contentment with fruitless labor just as you didn't choose to chain electron exchanges in a way that your brain interprets as the sensation of touching your keyboard. These things happen, and they don't even happen to you. They happen to the thing you're observing, and to take pride in them is a spiteful folly.
Soladrin wrote: You must have such a happy life knowing you may as well not exist.
I exist entirely separate from the 'physical' human being that I seemingly occupy, just as you do.
No I don't, if I existed separate from my physical human being I'd be something very simple. Dead.
Soladrin wrote: No I don't, if I existed separate from my physical human being I'd be something very simple. Dead.
Well, no, you wouldn't and you aren't. Death is a biological phenomenon. It happens to living things, which you are not. Even within a materialist conception, you are not a living thing, you are an enigmatic emergent thing that comes from decidedly inorganic processes.
Your existence is sustained indefinitely and completely by its necessity as part of reality. What subjectivity looks like beyond the death of the "person" you're observing is up for debate, but it is certainly impossible for you to die.
Soladrin wrote: No I don't, if I existed separate from my physical human being I'd be something very simple. Dead.
Well, no, you wouldn't and you aren't. Death is a biological phenomenon. It happens to living things, which you are not. Even within a materialist conception, you are not a living thing, you are an enigmatic emergent thing that comes from decidedly inorganic processes.
Your existence is sustained indefinitely and completely by its necessity as part of reality. What subjectivity looks like beyond the death of the "person" you're observing is up for debate, but it is certainly impossible for you to die.
HOLY gak IM IMMORTAL GAIS.
Seriously though. There is so much wrong with this line of thinking I don't know where to begin. My individuality is a direct result of a biochemical process saying otherwise is just moronic.
Soladrin wrote: Seriously though. There is so much wrong with this line of thinking I don't know where to begin. My individuality is a direct result of a biochemical process saying otherwise is just moronic.
Well, you can continue to simply say that, but I will continue to explain how it's wrong. You are not a human being. You are not a human consciousness. These things are part of the world, and are completely driven and defined by the world. You are autonomous, free from slavery to nature, those things are not. This is what separates you from them, and makes you supernatural.
Soladrin wrote: Seriously though. There is so much wrong with this line of thinking I don't know where to begin. My individuality is a direct result of a biochemical process saying otherwise is just moronic.
Well, you can continue to simply say that, but I will continue to explain how it's wrong. You are not a human being. You are not a human consciousness. These things are part of the world, and are completely driven and defined by the world. You are autonomous, free from slavery to nature, those things are not. This is what separates you from them, and makes you supernatural.
Soladrin wrote: Seriously though. There is so much wrong with this line of thinking I don't know where to begin. My individuality is a direct result of a biochemical process saying otherwise is just moronic.
Well, you can continue to simply say that, but I will continue to explain how it's wrong. You are not a human being. You are not a human consciousness. These things are part of the world, and are completely driven and defined by the world. You are autonomous, free from slavery to nature, those things are not. This is what separates you from them, and makes you supernatural.
You're not "explaining" anything, you're stating a load of opinionated, existential bollocks as irrefutable fact and getting all high when someone challenges your little fantasy with proven science. Just because you say we are not living beings and all that other crap you keep spouting does not make it true, no matter how much you might think it does. Give the condescension and egotism a break.
Why on earth would we need mods? This is a strange, pseudo-philosophical discussion- but it may actually help our OP. From his last post, it sounds as if he can work, and has worked hard in the past. He is seeking purpose in life. Now he probably won't follow the philosophy slowly being created in this thread, but it may start him asking questions- and that would be no bad thing.
"What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. "
That's from the noted philosopher and sage, Morpheus.
Wow.
Got into interesting philosophy discussion there, nothing new to me, just was not expecting to see it here.
Blacksails: Your realist views I enjoy.
Sometimes each of us need a slap to the side of the head and the question raised "Are you REALLY sure this is the path you wish to go? Let us step through this..."
Kali: I think I would question more the source of motivation in general than questioning if effective change can be had.
You could point to Buddhism where it ALL is an illusion and to avoid attachment but it does not preclude participation in the world: it is still a worthy thing.
"You earn nothing and deserve nothing for 'your efforts.' It's despicable that you would further feel justified in lording your fortune over others who weren't given the same sickening endowments."
Why make any effort at all as outlined by your statement?
It is all a matter of perspective, rather than "lording" how about to try to inspire?
Show achievements are possible with some efforts even if it is just to broaden the mind or experience?
Anything undertaken I earn something (knowledge, practice, progress, patience), do not belittle that.
To "deserve" something we could definitely find some ground of it sounding suspiciously like entitlement.
I think what I find unpleasant is your stance makes it too easy to choose to do nothing and find it perfectly acceptable even if it is at the expense of others.
"What you're interested in and informed by is the world of seeming, a place devoid of substance that encourages you and your ilk to prey on the meek."
Certainly there are those who support themselves by preying on others, but I have seen even more people preying on kind hearted people's hard work to help fund their play time.
To aspire to a certain level of self-sufficiency that the immediate conditions would allow is worth working towards for either group.
Sigvatr: Taking ownership of the conditions you cannot control and making use of the what you can is key in moving forward in life.
I too feel "luck" is only half the equation: it is what you do with it when it happens and there is nothing to say it cannot be leveraged.
Life is under no obligation to be fair so you have to make use of the opportunities at hand to improve them... or you could just simply accept them for what they are since you are utterly powerless to change them according to others.
But GW are advertising in my area. My letter will sell me on the fact that i'm experienced with working with people, confident, fit, etc, and i know a bit about 40k.
Albatross wrote: People like you are the reason I vote Conservative. Get off your arse and get on with it.
Work is the cancer that eats at your soul. We have no need of ceaseless toil and certainly no want of it.
Huh?
I like puzzles, my work involves lots of puzzles during the day.
Being helpful to others and smoothing the way to goals.
Teamwork, companionship, success... it is a reasonably pleasant cancer.
We eat well, live well, travel interesting places, can pay for equipment and connections to people such as yourself online.
I sleep well at night, help teach other people skills they show interest in and enjoy.
Rather than tasks eating a soul, what do you feed it with?
Taking in air and donated food under a funded by others roof does not at first glance make my soul expand with joy but monks do find a way to make it noble.
Albatross wrote: People like you are the reason I vote Conservative. Get off your arse and get on with it.
Hear hear!
Poor effort troll
I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
But would that be a manifestation of spit in the coffee or a fully realized moment of actualization by Kali?
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Albatross wrote: I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Not politically correct but the intent is spot-on.
I must agree I am of a similar mindset and feel a certain measure of pride in effort is in order.
Now everyone get off my lawn!!!
I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Wouldn't that require the ability to feel shame?
I'm not convinced it's a trait many millennials posses.
I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
I'm one of those, and am currently still trying to find a job I can actually do in my area. It's not easy but I will keep trying.
"The generations before and after mine were some of the worst generations of all time, except the baby boomers, who are ACTUALLY are the worst generation of all time." - Every generation.
Albatross wrote: I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Not politically correct but the intent is spot-on.
Albatross wrote: I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Not politically correct but the intent is spot-on.
Politically incorrect? How so?
Because it was honest and could potentially "huwt his feewings."
The year I spent healthy sponging off my parents (I was 18 and had just fethed up my A-levels, was relatively unemployable and lazy/entitled as feth ) is one I'm ashamed of.
Got up off my ass, got a degree, worked for six years whilst also furthering said education.
Then gak happened and I'm back there, but this time I have an excuse! Even with that "excuse" I feel shame for not working.
MrDwhitey wrote: The year I spent healthy sponging off my parents (I was 18 and had just fethed up my A-levels, was relatively unemployable and lazy/entitled as feth ) is one I'm ashamed of.
Got up off my ass, got a degree, worked for six years whilst also furthering said education.
Then gak happened and I'm back there, but this time I have an excuse! Even with that "excuse" I feel shame for not working.
Well, I happen to think being disabled is actually a pretty bloody good reason for not being in employment mate! Kudos to you for trying to find something and best of luck!
I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Wouldn't that require the ability to feel shame?
I'm not convinced it's a trait many millennials posses.
Let's not turn this into a golden age fallacy blame it on the millennials thing. That's not what this is - there are those without shame in every generation.
I know a few things about life now that I mad it to 27 and he will need to grow up adventually because it happens lol
1: parents die he ends up homeless and gets a job
2: keeps a bad job has very little gets tired of not having stuff and gets a better job
3: they put out a new game system every year which costs hundreds and need to buy all new games so need a job.
So like my grandpa always said " A boy will stay a boy, until life gets to hard for him to stay the way he is then he will become a man"
So he just never hit any hard parts in his life yet for me I was like that til 21 when my mom got leukemia, dad start to take a nervious break down and was out of it and my whole family was freaking out blaming me cause I was the one who hung around home alot. Then my girl was preg and we almost lost the baby 3 times. In those 6 months I grew a spine and got my gak together just like everyone else will. But only when life gets to hard for how they are and they need to change.
So... you're saying that if he's lucky, he'll suffer (or come near to) tragedies so that he conforms to a societal standard people consider that of a respectable person?
daedalus wrote: So... you're saying that if he's lucky, he'll suffer (or come near to) tragedies so that he conforms to a societal standard people consider that of a respectable person?
no not if he is lucky it just one of those things like puberty it is coming you just never know when. Something will happen in your life you can't handle and you will change, thats how things work.
War
Disease
Famine
Lost of a love one
People needing you to be the "dad/man in charge financially or protectively"
This is how everyone always grew up my grand dads time it was you worked in the mines soon as you where what 16... then the army cause ww2
My dads time because there wasn't enough money to help support him so he needed to get a job and his own house
Thats why kids who work on farms or in a military family seem to grow up faster. When you need to deal with adult stuff you learn to be more adult.
daedalus wrote: So... you're saying that if he's lucky, he'll suffer (or come near to) tragedies so that he conforms to a societal standard people consider that of a respectable person?
Sometimes having something bad happen to you can be a good thing if it serves as a catalyst for substantial life changes.
I can tell you a story about how my life changed dramatically if you have a minute to spare. I never went very far from the city where I was born and raised. I was very set in my comfortable routine: hanging out with friends, shooting hoops, relaxing at the playground. Some other kids started to move into the neighborhood to make problems and we got into a fight which freaked my mother out, so she send me to the west coast to spend some time with my family there. I didn't want to leave my friends and tried to make her change her mind, but she practically pushed me into the plane with my suitcase. I finally accepted that it was out of my control and listened to my iPod. The flight was pretty nice, it was before they made you pay for everything, so I got free drinks and they had a good movie on the plane. Is this what the west coast was going to be like? I might be okay if that is the case. I had always heard that west coast folks are all stuck up and that I wouldn't fit in, but I decided that I would just see if they were ready for someone like me. My family had send someone to pick me up, but he looked like a cop and I didn't want any trouble yet so I disappeared and caught a cab. I made it to my families house, paid the cabbie, told him that I would smell him later, and decided that this place was pretty nice and that I would make a great Prince of Bel Air.
I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Wouldn't that require the ability to feel shame?
I'm not convinced it's a trait many millennials posses.
Let's not turn this into a golden age fallacy blame it on the millennials thing. That's not what this is - there are those without shame in every generation.
Very true. The system that enables or produces these people is what needs to be looked at.
It's like the bandwagon made heavy presumptions and think this person has been playing video games for 10 years and never done anything interesting or achieved anything. But then again, what can i expect when people don't read the whole thread.
Albatross wrote: People like you are the reason I vote Conservative. Get off your arse and get on with it.
Hear hear!
Poor effort troll
Well, I've already been suspended once this month.
If I told you how I really felt, I'd be on to number 2.
Feel free to express your opinion about a person that isn't a correct representation of me via a pm
MrDwhitey wrote:The year I spent healthy sponging off my parents (I was 18 and had just fethed up my A-levels, was relatively unemployable and lazy/entitled as feth ) is one I'm ashamed of.
Got up off my ass, got a degree, worked for six years whilst also furthering said education.
Then gak happened and I'm back there, but this time I have an excuse! Even with that "excuse" I feel shame for not working.
Sucks to hear. Can i ask what the direction/ job was? Maybe you'd like to share what happened? I've enjoyed reading peoples responses to the topic, or at least the first 2 pages
This is a fine reason why i made the topic. I'm sure along the line you made some money and had some good times, but for me it could be different. I could invest my time and loose what advantage i have in the sport i do and loose my money which is being used for travelling. These are things that can't be brought back without significant sacrifices. Although money upon being """"""""successful"""""""" (major quotations needed) can be recuperated easier.
I wanted to see if people had anything close to them they'd given up to get a "dream" / job / career done. Or people like me hadn't any real interests that could be put into a job/ career/ business, and ended up just cruising through life doing what they like to do on a basic paid job. And/ or what they hadn't expected to happen happened and it was an enjoyable surprise/ random opportunities arose from nothing. Plus any other interesting stories people could share.
I hate to break it to you, but its how you represented yourself:
I ask because i wanted to have some kind of direction or reassurance by the time i hit 30. I'm not there yet mind! I did some "travelling" for 3 months and it certainly helped my thinking, and not my wallet. I've never "moved out" and don't have "qualifications". Actually right now, i don't have a job.
The strange thing is, i do like just doing the things i enjoy (sport dedicated, xbox), and never having enough time to do everything. I remain focussed on that, and careers/ work/ education, never really get much of my focus. I just find it impossible to imagen a life which is different from what i do now. In my experience, hearing from and watching others, it's primarily luck that has people in a position of happiness/ content that i'm jealous of. (except one or two who i know worked hard).
I don't have any interests that are viable to work in; low wage and pure chance of having good work buddies. I like my local area, it has what i want/ need, friends, etc. But i know for certain this can all change, by sport can come to an end through injury as an example.
I mean, the summation there is, "I live off my parents and I'd rather play video games than work hard and it doesn't even matter because it's not my fault because I'm just unlucky."
I hate to break this to you, but being happy and successful often require sacrifice, and if you're unwilling to make an sacrifices, I don't know what else we can tell you, especially since you seem so content living off your parents.
Albatross wrote: I'm not trolling, I mean it. You basically just sound lazy. There are people who are physically disabled and unable to work that would give anything to be able to go out and earn a living to support themselves and you're (correct me if I'm wrong) sitting around all day playing computer games and sponging off your folks. In my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself, young man.
Not politically correct but the intent is spot-on.
Politically incorrect? How so?
Because it was honest and could potentially "huwt his feewings."
It was just a store job while I trained to be a lecturer (spent 2 years lecturing, was great).
As for what happened, still not sure. Over a year of tests and the best we've got is nerve damage all over (the tumour in the spine scare last month was fun). Possibly due to a pretty rare reaction to a drug I was prescribed at the time, but correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. All I know is I feel like I'm on fire in my lower half a lot of the time, I have close to zero balance, blah blah the list goes on (seriously, the list is huge).
MrDwhitey wrote:It was just a store job while I trained to be a lecturer (spent 2 years lecturing, was great).
As for what happened, still not sure. Over a year of tests and the best we've got is nerve damage all over (the tumour in the spine scare last month was fun). Possibly due to a pretty rare reaction to a drug I was prescribed at the time, but correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. All I know is I feel like I'm on fire in my lower half a lot of the time, I have close to zero balance, blah blah the list goes on (seriously, the list is huge).
Damn. Sorry to hear that. I won't suggest anything as i'm sure you've followed other paths.
cincydooley wrote:I hate to break it to you, but its how you represented yourself:
I ask because i wanted to have some kind of direction or reassurance by the time i hit 30. I'm not there yet mind! I did some "travelling" for 3 months and it certainly helped my thinking, and not my wallet. I've never "moved out" and don't have "qualifications". Actually right now, i don't have a job.
The strange thing is, i do like just doing the things i enjoy (sport dedicated, xbox), and never having enough time to do everything. I remain focussed on that, and careers/ work/ education, never really get much of my focus. I just find it impossible to imagen a life which is different from what i do now. In my experience, hearing from and watching others, it's primarily luck that has people in a position of happiness/ content that i'm jealous of. (except one or two who i know worked hard).
I don't have any interests that are viable to work in; low wage and pure chance of having good work buddies. I like my local area, it has what i want/ need, friends, etc. But i know for certain this can all change, by sport can come to an end through injury as an example.
I mean, the summation there is, "I live off my parents and I'd rather play video games than work hard and it doesn't even matter because it's not my fault because I'm just unlucky."
I hate to break this to you, but being happy and successful often require sacrifice, and if you're unwilling to make an sacrifices, I don't know what else we can tell you, especially since you seem so content living off your parents.
I did follow up with another post realising i had given people an opportunity, that mistake was obvious... But those people seemed to not bother to read the measly few pages before posting their wild accusations. And just to be clear, after my correcting post is when "those" people chimed in their opinions. It might have been wise to ask before hand, "dude your parents paid for you to go travelling?" or something else related, or again, read the thread, maybe!?
I'm not going to ask you, but being successful doesn't mean financial wealth. Hell the words: wealth, successful and happy can be all put under financial if you're that way inclined.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i put forward some questions and merely said, "the people i know who are happily got lucky". I never mentioned what their successes were, and i wasn't looking for people to jump into my thread with negativity.
So regardless people be [see forum posting rules]. I'd like this topic to stay on track as i said before, i have enjoyed reading people experiences.
So, this is a comment from the reply you're referring to, from you:
I do think this is where a lack of drive does come from too. I barely even have to look after myself to be perfectly honest.
So, basically, you've never had to be responsible for yourself and have never been held accountable for anything. Are we supposed to feel bad for you because you can't muster up any sort of intrinsic form of motivation?
I'm not going to ask you, but being successful doesn't mean financial wealth. Hell the words: wealth, successful and happy can be all put under financial if you're that way inclined.
Not necessarily, but I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that categorized sitting on the the couch and playing xbox or playing rec-league dodgeball (or whatever your 'sport' is) as successful.
Sure, there are plenty of places one can be successful, and you can be successful in your job without being well rewarded financially. Hell, I started as a teacher (and I know we have others here that are as well) and my wife is still a teacher, and she sure as gak isn't accruing massive amounts of financial wealth. But she's an incredibly successful teacher.
I make more money than her, and have nearly doubled my salary, as well as been given other promotions, since I've been at my present place of business. My wife is much more quantitatively successful at her job than I am (she's won multiple teacher of the year awards and has the highest test scores in her district for three straight years), but I'm still compensated more.
Additionally, I believe she and I have an incredibly successful relationship that yielded, and very fortunately so, a healthy and beautiful child.
But do you know what the common thread throughout all of those things is? Not luck. Sacrifice.
In order to become teacher of the year, she works her ass off, continually takes classes to become a better teacher, and goes above and beyond, often at the expense of watching TV or playing games or going out.
In order to advance in the manner I have, I've stayed late at work and come in early, I've taken seminars to further my knowledge base regarding our products, and I've spent numerous hours reading regulations to better understand them. I worked for 4 hours on two separate days AT GENCON.
And if you think there isn't sacrifice involved in maintaining a healthy, positive relationship, well, I have some Oceanfront property in Oklahoma to sell you.
So again, I've read your posts, but we've hit a point that it seems fairly clear that you're unwilling to do the things and make the sacrifices required to be "successful" by any metric society typically defines it.
But who knows. Maybe you could become a world famous video game player, and all that sitting on the couch could completely pay off.
I applied to the military coming out of high school. At the time, my motivation was to get a free education. My parents had some money set aside, but I had two younger siblings that would also need that money, so I figured I'd get the government to cover it in exchange for years of service.
I had to pick three potential trades on the spot at the recruitment center, one of them being pilot (the other two were artillery and armoured, because guns and tanks are cool). I got accepted into the program, and when the realization dawned on me, I buckled down and worked hard for the next seven years through university and pilot training. For all those years, I spent every day knowing all my work and training would pay off with a sweet job flying helicopters for the military. There were a lot of long days, and days where I very nearly threw it all away due to my own stupidity. I moved three times to three different provinces, all of which was spent away from my then girlfriend/fiance.
I didn't know what I wanted to do in life until I got the phone call telling me I was going to be a pilot. From then on I worked every day to make that happen. It was long, occasionally painful, and frustrating, but it was incredibly rewarding and I shared it all with some amazing people.
Life is what you make of it. Like anything you'll ever do, you'll get out of it what you put into it. That whole 'reap what you sow' rings true.
I don't make oodles of money, but my wife and I are comfortable. I love my job, and I live in the city I wanted to because I topped my course and selected my preferred base.
But hey, everyone has different experiences, though I imagine most people who are happy and successful in their career have done so through no small amount of work.
I don't have any interests that are viable to work in; low wage and pure chance of having good work buddies. I like my local area, it has what i want/ need, friends, etc. But i know for certain this can all change, by sport can come to an end through injury as an example.
So i ask, as with the initial question, have you followed any sort of path with your life? Have things turned out well randomly for no reason? Did you feel lost once as do i? That last question is quite laughable to type
Go to whatever England has in the way of a Vocational/Technical school. Plummer, Electrician, etc. Make decent money, come home at the end of the day and leave your job where it was, have time (and reasonable cash) to blow on the weekends.
Did i think I was going to work for a major manufacturing company's R&D facility as a researcher when I graduated with a ChemE degree? No way. I thought I'd work in manufacturing plants for 30+ years. Was it luck? Nope. I got this job through networking, taking every project I could, and not being a dick to people. Hard to believe from my posts, I know.
kronk wrote: Nope. I got this job through networking, taking every project I could, and not being a dick to people. Hard to believe from my posts, I know.
The phrase "don't burn your bridges" is just as true as "not being a dick" when looking for work. That little 1-day job might have had the same manager as you're stuck with for years.
With a good job, comes good money to party with.
Less time to party, but yeah. Choose your poison, as you'll be able to afford to with a good job.
cincydooley wrote:So, this is a comment from the reply you're referring to, from you:
I do think this is where a lack of drive does come from too. I barely even have to look after myself to be perfectly honest.
Unfortunately i had to go back and read, cause that seemed a little odd. And way to take it out of context, the reply was in relation to the poster talking about having a family to care for.
cincydooley wrote:
So, basically, you've never had to be responsible for yourself and have never been held accountable for anything. Are we supposed to feel bad for you because you can't muster up any sort of intrinsic form of motivation?
Hang on, do you have some kind of problem here? You've written a bit below about your life which is what the topic asked for, so i appreciate your input there. But your quite odd negative remarks about me are just that, odd. I'm taking the presumption just as you have, saving to go travelling and keeping a car on the road don't come under financial responsibility then. "Feel bad for me?" Sure, go ahead, send me some chocolates in the post
cincydooley wrote:
I'm not going to ask you, but being successful doesn't mean financial wealth. Hell the words: wealth, successful and happy can be all put under financial if you're that way inclined.
Not necessarily, but I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that categorized sitting on the the couch and playing xbox or playing rec-league dodgeball (or whatever your 'sport' is) as successful.
Sure, there are plenty of places one can be successful, and you can be successful in your job without being well rewarded financially. Hell, I started as a teacher (and I know we have others here that are as well) and my wife is still a teacher, and she sure as gak isn't accruing massive amounts of financial wealth. But she's an incredibly successful teacher.
And this is another reason why i started the topic, (some elaboration given), what's wrong with coming home and playing xbox to relax and save money (i bought Halo 4 on release in November 2012 and played that till i bought Destiny, which was released a few weeks ago) and using a sport to earn extra money, be social, stay fit, go places with friends, (hell i've even been paid to go places).
But i didn't think this elaboration was needed because i thought other people out there may just do a simple 9-5 job and when they come home, a few basic indulgences was all they needed to have a happy and therefore successful life. Being young i cannot speak from experience if this is something that may be something i'd enjoy doing in 10/20, hell even 30 years. So maybe others did this, then changed. Or still do this. Or just do a low paid job and come home, see misses, play Warhammer, next day repeat. Or somebody had worked to be well paid, but then sacked it all to live on a canal boat, or something.
Plus i didn't think people would feel the need to take my post "word for word" and instead of answering questions, for some odd reason, get all worked up about it.
Talizvar wrote:Success is wanting something and working toward it.
Not wanting anything is a waste of potential.
Really nothing I can say to add to this view.
But when you get there, what next? Jokes ignored, i guess that you should really decide for yourself (myself), what success is wanted.
Talizvar wrote:Success is wanting something and working toward it.
Not wanting anything is a waste of potential.
Really nothing I can say to add to this view.
But when you get there, what next? Jokes ignored, i guess that you should really decide for yourself (myself), what success is wanted.
What? You are aspiring to one goal at a time??
A bunch of short term goals leading to long term ones I find make for great motivation and makes the time pass well (to be of note and memorable)
You may do this to some extent with your sports already.
It may be a generation thing but self-sufficiency has been a priority for me, to let others decide your living conditions (like parents) could at times be an unacceptable state of affairs.
I had reasonably well-off parents so "sponging" off them would have been no hardship to them so that moral concern was not as much of an issue which is probably what cincydooley was pointing to.
I could see that it could be viewed as not being "grown-up" if you are capable and healthy to choose not to "stand on your own two feet".
I guess if your parents are happy to support your present lifestyle and you are happy there is no harm or foul.
The main flaw I see in this is at some point it may not be sustainable.
I would suggest looking after yourself, get all buff with your sports and find a nice sugar-mama! I did (mama, not get all buff...), but I do not need her marvelous income so I have some negotiation space.
