Any time a unit with a grenade pack enters play by Deep Strike
and does not suffer a Deep Strike mishap, nominate one model
in the unit immediately after it arrives. That model can make a
single special shooting attack in the Movement phase with the
profile below - this represents the unit’s grenade pack attack.
A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can
still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must
target the same target unit if possible.

"if possible"

Deep Strike within 24" of target one or out of sight, target unit one.

If target is not out of sight, battle focus out of range.

Proceed to shoot secondary target.

Is it correct that RAW, the Swooping Hawks can always shoot at two targets ?

The "if possible" is indeed in case you no longer have to option to target that Unit:
- It is out of range
- It is out of LoS
- It has died (because the Grenade pack killed it)

If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

if it mattered at the start of the shooting phase if it was possible to shoot at an enemy unit then, you wouldn't be able to battle focus closer to a unit and fire at it because it wasn't possible to shoot them at the start.

You select the hawks to run, then with battle focus select the hawks to shoot, then check range, the unit fired upon with the grenade pack is out of range so it is no longer possible to shoot at, proceed to fire at a different unit in range.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

if it mattered at the start of the shooting phase if it was possible to shoot at an enemy unit then, you wouldn't be able to battle focus closer to a unit and fire at it because it wasn't possible to shoot them at the start.

You select the hawks to run, then with battle focus select the hawks to shoot, then check range, the unit fired upon with the grenade pack is out of range so it is no longer possible to shoot at, proceed to fire at a different unit in range.

In order to legally target a second unit it must be impossible for the first unit to be targeted during the shooting phase. If the hawks start the shooting phase within range and LoS of the first unit this is never going to be the case.

Deliberately moving away doesn't change this. The grenade pack rules are mandatory. Using battle focus isn't.

What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

 Quanar wrote:
What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

I don't think so because battle focus is optional and there is no mandatory requirement to use it.

But if you did use it, you would have to go towards the unit? If BF'ing away when you are in range isn't allowed because you could be shooting the first unit, surely BF'ing away when you could be moving towards the unit to shoot is also not allowed?

What about being forced to deep strike closer than you want to be in order to ensure you don't kill too many and make it impossible to shoot the unit?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

I don't think so because battle focus is optional and there is no mandatory requirement to use it.

"If possible" is either mandatory to use BF or destroys your own argument.

I would think they would be allowed to run out of range using Battle Focus and fire at a second target. it says you must target the same unit if possible, but you don't check range and line of sight for possible targeting until the unit is declared to be shooting. With battle focus, that declaration would not come until after the run move is complete, but before you declare a shoot or run action with a different unit.

 Quanar wrote:
But if you did use it, you would have to go towards the unit? If BF'ing away when you are in range isn't allowed because you could be shooting the first unit, surely BF'ing away when you could be moving towards the unit to shoot is also not allowed?

What about being forced to deep strike closer than you want to be in order to ensure you don't kill too many and make it impossible to shoot the unit?

When did I say BF'ing away wasn't allowed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

I don't think so because battle focus is optional and there is no mandatory requirement to use it.

"If possible" is either mandatory to use BF or destroys your own argument.

Not really. If you start the shooting phase in range and LoS of the first unit, it is undeniably possible to target them during the shooting phase. The condition within the grenade pack rule has been met and therefore you can't legally target a second unit.

BF is optional and if you do use it you can move whichever way you want. If you aren't within range at the start of the shooting phase and don't move within range using BF it is not possible to target the first unit during the shooting phase. Therefore the condition within the grenade pack rule is not met and you can target a second unit if this is an option.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
But if you did use it, you would have to go towards the unit? If BF'ing away when you are in range isn't allowed because you could be shooting the first unit, surely BF'ing away when you could be moving towards the unit to shoot is also not allowed?

What about being forced to deep strike closer than you want to be in order to ensure you don't kill too many and make it impossible to shoot the unit?

When did I say BF'ing away wasn't allowed?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Unless you're saying you can BF away but then wouldn't be able to shoot at all...

Yes, if you BF out of range of the first unit without shooting them first you then couldn't shoot anyone.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes, if you BF out of range of the first unit without shooting them first you then couldn't shoot anyone.

I disagree with your statement. When it's time to shoot it isn't possible to shoot your grenade pack target. Agree or disagree?

It's important to note that the rule doesn't ask if it's possible to target the same unit at the START of the shooting phase, it just says it must target the same unit if possible. When it comes time to select a target, if you've used Battle Focus to move out of LOS, it's no longer possible. Feel free to select a secondary target.

This is actually a very sound tactic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about this scenario?

Swooping Hawks drop in and throw the grenade pack at target A. Subsequently, in the movement phase, a couple of allied Land Raiders move forward and block LOS. At the start of the shooting phase, Battle Focus won't let you move around the Land Raiders to get LOS. Are you able to shoot a secondary target?

Of course you are. When it comes time to choose a target, target A isn't a possible choice. It doesn't matter which movement caused it to be impossible, just that it's impossible.

It would seem that per Tonberry's logic, had you not moved the Land Raider, it would have been a legal target, so it was POSSIBLE. No secondary targets.

So Tonberry what about these example?

I use the grenade pack and kill enough models that the enemy unit (A) is 25 inches away and in LoS but there is a different unit (B) 25 inches away in the opposite direction of unit A. Can i battle focus towards unit B to fire at them even though it would be "possible" to battle focus towards unit A and shoot at them.

What about if i deep struck behind LoS blocking terrain? Can i not shoot at all because it would have been "possible" to deep strike on the other side so that i could shoot at unit A.

Edit: should have read Kriswall's post but we have the same point.

+1 on on the "if possible" after the battle focus move. Battle focus away/out of LoS and then check to see if it is possible to shoot. I don't see a conflict there unless you are deliberately looking for a way to manufacture one. Even then it becomes codex vs codex, controlling player decides the order of operations.

The "if possible" being used to say you need to move at them is absurd. Even if you killed an entire unit with it, it was still "possible" that some might have passed their saves and so you would have had to shoot the unit again anyway. Nonsense.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes, if you BF out of range of the first unit without shooting them first you then couldn't shoot anyone.

I disagree with your statement. When it's time to shoot it isn't possible to shoot your grenade pack target. Agree or disagree?

Yes at that time however it was possible to target the grenade pack unit before making an optional move away.

 Kriswall wrote:
It's important to note that the rule doesn't ask if it's possible to target the same unit at the START of the shooting phase, it just says it must target the same unit if possible. When it comes time to select a target, if you've used Battle Focus to move out of LOS, it's no longer possible. Feel free to select a secondary target.

This is actually a very sound tactic.

Ok. If at the start of the shooting phase the first unit is in range and in LoS, is it possible to target them? The answer is yes. RAW they must target them if shooting in the shooting phase.

 Kriswall wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about this scenario?

Swooping Hawks drop in and throw the grenade pack at target A. Subsequently, in the movement phase, a couple of allied Land Raiders move forward and block LOS. At the start of the shooting phase, Battle Focus won't let you move around the Land Raiders to get LOS. Are you able to shoot a secondary target?

Of course you are. When it comes time to choose a target, target A isn't a possible choice. It doesn't matter which movement caused it to be impossible, just that it's impossible.

It would seem that per Tonberry's logic, had you not moved the Land Raider, it would have been a legal target, so it was POSSIBLE. No secondary targets.

It certainly does matter which movement caused target A to be not an option because in your scenario the LR and hawks are moving in different phases. If the LR move in and block LoS during the movement phase that's fine, pick a secondary target, but BF takes place in the shooting phase and so it is still possible to target the first unit before they BF away.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes at that time however it was possible to target the grenade pack unit before making an optional move away.

Relevancy?

Ok. If at the start of the shooting phase the first unit is in range and in LoS, is it possible to target them? The answer is yes. RAW they must target them if shooting in the shooting phase.

Citation required. If they're in range at the start of the shooting phase and another unit fires and wipes them out, are they Hawks now just required to sit there?
Cite something, anything, that says "at the start of the shooting phase".

It certainly does matter which movement caused target A to be not an option because in your scenario the LR and hawks are moving in different phases. If the LR move in and block LoS during the movement phase that's fine, pick a secondary target, but BF takes place in the shooting phase and so it is still possible to target the first unit before they BF away.

Cite evidence to prove your point please. All you're doing is asserting "start of the phase is all that matters" without supporting it with rules. The actual rules never say that.

I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

If you mean read ur post as such, that is irrelavent. If you mean read the rule that way, you can't change the rule to how you want it to read just to prove your point.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine (and most everyone else who posted) had it right near the beginning. Lets break it down...

The grenade pack says to target the target if able. Battle focus says to take two actions during shooting phase (one run, one shoot, any order). Shooting phase says nothing about targeting until after you've selected a unit to shoot that phase (see The Shooting Sequence, BRB). You do not/cannot target anything until that unit is selected to shoot, and you dont select the unit to shoot when you elect to run, the shooting sequence is ignored when you run ("In their shooting phase, units may choose to Run rather than firing.", BRB). There is no rule or contingent that checks who is in range of anything in the shooting phase until a unit is selected to shoot in the shooting sequence, which is ignored when you elect to run. With BF, if you elect to run first, no targets are checked until after the unit runs, and is already nominated to shoot in the first step of the second action's shooting sequence. Until this point no targeting has been done, no ranges checked, no eligible targets discovered.

If you believe otherwise, by all means enlighten us with a rule citation.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

As others have pointed out, the resolution is quite simple.

The rule is "however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

This places a restriction upon Phase 2:Choose a target.

When you reach Phase 2 of the shooting sequence, you are restricted to "must target the same target".

If any other events taking place before hand (another Unit moving, BF away with your own, etc), then the " if possible" clause might have to be taken into account and select another target.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

Except that when they declare targets, it is not possible to target them. You're putting the restriction on the unit as soon as the shooting phase starts, with zero rules support. Please, cite a rule that puts the restriction on the unit before Battle Focus is resolved. I'd love to see an actual rules quote from you - for once.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.

This is correct.

Stating that you cannot Battle-Focus first and move out of range before shooting is not.

The only restriction on the Hawks rule has to do with targeting.

Does the unit target when it uses Battle Focus?

Tonberry7 , there is nothing about checking range or line of sight for target selection until after a unit has been declared to be shooting. You don't check at any other time during the shooting phase.

by your logic it would also be illegal to have a friendly vehicle move flat out in the shooting phase to block line of sight to the first unit and then fire at a second, and there are zero rules to support this.

I'd like to say I had Tonberry on ignore from the beginning, so I mostly read people who were correct and I'm happy to know I had the rule right.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

They're not ignoring the requirement, they're following the proper order of how the phase works and how BF works, and from your start comment, with respect, you obviously gave up trying to prove your point and seem to be trolling. I'd suggest this thread is done.


@morgoth: you are correct.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

Except that when they declare targets, it is not possible to target them. You're putting the restriction on the unit as soon as the shooting phase starts, with zero rules support. Please, cite a rule that puts the restriction on the unit before Battle Focus is resolved. I'd love to see an actual rules quote from you - for once.

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

@rookshunter. Thanks for calling me a troll. Great argument. I've clearly set out my position. If you have a different interpretation of RAW that's fine but labeling people as trolls because you don't agree is weak.

@morgoth. You'll always think you're correct if you ignore all the people who don't have the same opinion.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.
Remember, it must show that the restriction is in place before the Hawk unit is actually nominated to shoot - as by the time that happens, the first unit is out of range/LoS.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

@rookshunter. Thanks for calling me a troll. Great argument. I've clearly set out my position. If you have a different interpretation of RAW that's fine but labeling people as trolls because you don't agree is weak.

@morgoth. You'll always think you're correct if you ignore all the people who don't have the same opinion.

I call you a troll based on what I've read in this thread (and still do so far, but for this thread only, I don't know you from other threads.) because you are self contradicting (stopped using the word "start" even though that concept was a major supporting part of your argument) and do not support your own arguments with actual rule citations or quotes that support your argument. You've just propagated circular arguments thus far.
I believe it's already been established the rule you are claiming to cite (Grenade Pack) makes no modification to the shooting phase, and therefore doesn't qualify as a special/advanced rule that supersedes anything that goes on in the shooting phase. It only refers to when a certain event in the shooting phase happens, then x is triggered/checked in the rule. Therefore, your argument should be founded in the shooting phase rules, not the Grenade Pack rule. You have not used the correct rules to support your claim that there is some magical target check that happens instantly when the shooting phase starts.

So yes, this is me asking you to make it painfully clear, quote the rulebook word for word with an explanation of why you think it works that way, because I, and it seems many others in this thread, don't understand the logic coming from your mind.

Oh, and Morgoth isn't the one to be chided in this thread....

Edit/Update: Apologies for making this type of update, but I realize I was not totally correct. Technically the Grenade Pack rule does in fact interfere with the shooting phase, but only to the effect of which target can be shot, not when that fact of who can be shot is established, which it seems is what you want it to say. Therefore, the rule(s) you need to cite are still from the Shooting Phase section of the BRB, not the Codex: Eldar.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

??? Please quote a rule that allows us to target a unit that is outside of a weapon's maximum range? You are asserting a specific time on the "if possible" clause. Where are you getting this specific time from?

"it must target the same target unit if possible"

If I elect to Battle Focus, then shoot, would you agree that targeting occurs AFTER Battle Focus? The restriction comes into play when we attempt to target a unit with a shooting attack, not "at the start of the shooting phase" as you claim.

By your logic (or lack of it rather) If a unit of War Walkers wipes the squad that took the grenade, the Hawks still could not fire because technically you could have shot with the Hawks before the War Walkers, making it "possible." However, we know this is not true because, as stated above, the restriction only comes into effect when you attempt to select a target for the Hawk's shooting attack. If it is out of range or LoS for ANY reason, it is not possible to shoot them. The rule doesn't care if it "could have been possible." It only cares if it is possible at the time of target selection.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It is also possible that a worm hole will fold space time on the table bring the unit back into range, in which case the hawks would indeed have to shoot the nominated target. Failing that though, once they are over 24" away, they cannot target a unit out of range. Cries of ""at the beginning of the phase" must be shown in a rules quote specific to Battle Focus, otherwise cries of "it doesn't say that, but it does say I CAN Battle focus" will loop with one person needing the last word in. You can now have it.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

rigeld2 wrote:And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It's relevant because the actual rule requires you to target the same unit if possible.
So if it's not possible to target the same unit you grenaded, you aren't required to.
And no, the shooting rules require you to be in range and LoS to declare a target. So please, use rules correctly in arguments.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

rigeld2 wrote:And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It's relevant because the actual rule requires you to target the same unit if possible.
So if it's not possible to target the same unit you grenaded, you aren't required to.
And no, the shooting rules require you to be in range and LoS to declare a target. So please, use rules correctly in arguments.

I've clearly demonstrated it's possible to target the same unit you grenaded. And the rules say you must do so if possible.

Also, if you want to use rules correctly in arguments, please cite a rule stating you have to be in range to declare a target.

Will you please just stop feeding him ?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

rigeld2 wrote:And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It's relevant because the actual rule requires you to target the same unit if possible.
So if it's not possible to target the same unit you grenaded, you aren't required to.
And no, the shooting rules require you to be in range and LoS to declare a target. So please, use rules correctly in arguments.

I've clearly demonstrated it's possible to target the same unit you grenaded. And the rules say you must do so if possible.

No, you haven't. It's not possible if they're out of range or LoS when it's time to declare a target (part of shooting, not part of Battle Focus).

Also, if you want to use rules correctly in arguments, please cite a rule stating you have to be in range to declare a target.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you aren't in range, you can't shoot at it, and therefore can't declare it as a target to your opponent.

Go ahead - cite a rule disagreeing with me. I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

Rigeld2,
It is very obvious Tonberry7 is wrong, at this point let the thread die.

Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

I'll requote the rule I already cited.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

I'll requote the rule I already cited.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

Yes, you check line of sight and range. However, as I pointed out, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate a unit as a target. It would be pointless to nominate a unit out of range as a target, as you would not be able to shoot them, but nothing actually prevents it. 6th edition, did require the target to be in range of at least one weapon. 7th edition does not.

HappyJew,
Interesting little theory that one, that the Authors informed us to Check the Range during Step 2 without intending for the Range to be a limiting factor when it came to Choosing a Target as per Step 2. From a pure Rule Lawyering point of view, I can't find much to fault the concept. This is because the results of our findings are never discussed within the Rule, if we Check for Range and find out that all our Weapons are out-of-Range we have still completed the 'Check for Range' step of the process. Line of Sight is a bit better because it literally states if the Target is outside of Line of Sight then another Target must be chosen, while Check Range lacks anything forcing us to choose a different Target at that point in time.

So, in order to make Tonberry7's point completely moot ensure the scenario's put forth involve Battle Focusing out of Line of Sight.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

I'll requote the rule I already cited.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

Yes, you check line of sight and range. However, as I pointed out, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate a unit as a target. It would be pointless to nominate a unit out of range as a target, as you would not be able to shoot them, but nothing actually prevents it. 6th edition, did require the target to be in range of at least one weapon. 7th edition does not.

Incorrect. You are required to be able to shoot at them (I bolded the section that says that). Can you shoot at things that are out of range?

This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

Zimko wrote:
This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

So you can declare that you're going to shoot at something you cannot shoot at? Because you have to decide what you're actually going to shoot at, and declare it - and then you have a target.
If you can't shoot at something, how can you declare you're going to shoot at it?

rigeld2 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

So you can declare that you're going to shoot at something you cannot shoot at? Because you have to decide what you're actually going to shoot at, and declare it - and then you have a target.
If you can't shoot at something, how can you declare you're going to shoot at it?

Because as far I can see, the only requirement for declaring a target is Line of Sight. You have permission to measure range, as you've quoted, before picking a target, but range is not a restriction until after you've selected a weapon group to fire with. So yes you can declare a target that you can not fire at with your weapons as long as it is within Line of Sight.

Edit: Sorry I don't have my BRB on me so I can not provide quotes. So please ignore my post until I can find the rules unless someone else is able to provide the relevant quotes.

Zimko wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

So you can declare that you're going to shoot at something you cannot shoot at? Because you have to decide what you're actually going to shoot at, and declare it - and then you have a target.
If you can't shoot at something, how can you declare you're going to shoot at it?

Because as far I can see, the only requirement for declaring a target is Line of Sight. You have permission to measure range, as you've quoted, before picking a target, but range is not a restriction until after you've selected a weapon group to fire with. So yes you can declare a target that you can not fire at with your weapons as long as it is within Line of Sight.

Edit: Sorry I don't have my BRB on me so I can not provide quotes. So please ignore my post until I can find the rules unless someone else is able to provide the relevant quotes.

You're entirely missing my point.
The delcare a target rules require you to declare what you're going to shoot at. Can you shoot at something that is out of range? If not, how could you declare that you're going to do that?

So you're saying that

targeting = declare what you're going to shoot at

and since you cant shoot at something outside the range of your weapons then you can't target that something.

Sounds correct but I haven't seen a quote to support this and can't check my BRB atm. What you quoted earlier is referring to an action ("To do so..." to do what exactly? Target or shoot?) that I can't check.

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying that

targeting = declare what you're going to shoot at

Yes.

and since you cant shoot at something outside the range of your weapons then you can't target that something.

Sounds correct but I haven't seen a quote to support this and can't check my BRB atm. What you quoted earlier is referring to an action ("To do so..." to do what exactly? Target or shoot?) that I can't check.

As you can see, choosing a target is defined as choosing an enemy unit for them to shoot at. Since you cannot shoot at something that is out of range, you cannot choose to shoot at something that is out of range, so you cannot choose that unit (that is out of range) as a target.

Tonberry isn't correct and neither is Happy.

Thank you for the quotes and now I completely agree with you.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you aren't in range, you can't shoot at it, and therefore can't declare it as a target to your opponent.

Go ahead - cite a rule disagreeing with me.

Well, as several others have kindly pointed out, the only RAW requirement to target a unit is that you can see that unit i.e. have LoS. You are claiming that you also need to be in range. Your quote does not support this, there is no RAW basis for this and you know it. You're now resorting to illogical statements like the one below as you're clearly unwilling to concede the point.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

It's true that to actually shoot at a unit you need to be in range. Again however, as has been pointed out to you, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate it as a target, even if you can't subsequently shoot at it.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you aren't in range, you can't shoot at it, and therefore can't declare it as a target to your opponent.

Go ahead - cite a rule disagreeing with me.

Well, as several others have kindly pointed out, the only RAW requirement to target a unit is that you can see that unit i.e. have LoS. You are claiming that you also need to be in range. Your quote does not support this, there is no RAW basis for this and you know it. You're now resorting to illogical statements like the one below as you're clearly unwilling to concede the point.

Excuse me? I've quoted the entire rule and explained exactly how it's laid out. Please quote the part of the rule that defies logic.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

It's true that to actually shoot at a unit you need to be in range. Again however, as has been pointed out to you, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate it as a target, even if you can't subsequently shoot at it.

They actually do - as I've demonstrated. Perhaps you should try quoting actual rules for once? I made it easy - the relevant rules are in a spoiler in one of my posts. Just copy and paste it. Please.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

And the actual rules don't agree with that statement. As I've shown - by quoting rules. Perhaps you'd indulge me by doing the same?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

And the actual rules don't agree with that statement. As I've shown - by quoting rules. Perhaps you'd indulge me by doing the same?

Apologies, I must have missed your quotes proving this. All I've really seen are some tenuous interpretations. I've already quoted the relevant rules to support my argument and explained my reasoning. If you disagree that's OK but I get the feeling we're going round in circles here.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

And the actual rules don't agree with that statement. As I've shown - by quoting rules. Perhaps you'd indulge me by doing the same?

Apologies, I must have missed your quotes proving this. All I've really seen are some tenuous interpretations. I've already quoted the relevant rules to support my argument and explained my reasoning. If you disagree that's OK but I get the feeling we're going round in circles here.

Cite the rule that says you're allowed to target something you cannot shoot.
I've demonstrated the opposite. You also alleged an illogical statement - please, cite the statement.
Prove your point - you've cited literally zero rules related to targeting.

I've cited all the relevant rules, just read the thread please. Also your last post has no merit or relevance, you're again just trying to obscure the issue. I think it's reasonably clear that you can target a unit that you can shoot.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I've cited all the relevant rules, just read the thread please. Also your last post has no merit or relevance, you're again just trying to obscure the issue. I think it's reasonably clear that you can target a unit that you can shoot.

It's absolutely clear that you can target a unit you can shoot.

You've cited literally no rules showing you can target a unit you cannot shoot.
I've made my assertions. Please disprove them instead of saying "you're wrong".

Seriously, if you want to continue discussing a separate issue perhaps you should make a new thread.

Otherwise, please demonstrate some proof that it's not possible to target the same unit in the shooting phase.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Seriously, if you want to continue discussing a separate issue perhaps you should make a new thread.

Otherwise, please demonstrate some proof that it's not possible to target the same unit in the shooting phase.

I have. You've failed to attempt to disprove me other than just saying I'm wrong.

Please follow the tenets of the sub forum. This isn't a separate issue - it's directly related to your assertion.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to report my posts. I've done nothing wrong.

Tonberry7,
When another poster requests the Rules be quoted it is not because they want you to repeat yourself, it is because they have no recollection of you actually doing so. Simply stating 'I already posted them' does not fix the problem as you are now requiring them to do something you know no one has the time or patience to do. It is a statement that literally forces them to look back through post after post, sometimes in other threads, simply to find an answer that you could have so must more easily simply stated once more in the post you had just made. Failure to do so makes everyone else assume that you are simply covering up your mistake, weakening your argument even further, because other readers are never going to put the time into finding a quote by you either.

Therefore the correct answer to such a request is to post the Rule that has been requested, restate your argument once more if you do feel the need to explain the Rule, and wait to see what their response will be.

You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

You also clearly think your other claims are relevant so we're in disagreement over that as well. I'm not sure why you think I would report you though.

@ jinxdragon. Thanks for the instruction. I do think you should be including Rigeld2 in your lecture though. Admittedly it does get tiresome repeating arguments time and time again.

Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

You also clearly think your other claims are relevant so we're in disagreement over that as well. I'm not sure why you think I would report you though.

I've shown how they're relevant. If you think I'm pulling this thread off topic, report the post.

@ jinxdragon. Thanks for the instruction. I do think you should be including Rigeld2 in your lecture though. Admittedly it does get tiresome repeating arguments time and time again.

I've cited rules and defended my argument. All you've done to defend yours is "Nuh uh".

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

That has become the entire issue here, JinxDragon and rigeld2, so I wonder if this thread needs locked. Most of the thread has been a mountain of RaW + discussion as to why it works as everyone knows it does, while one certain individual has been ... sharing .... their opinion repeatedly, w/o rules support (that hasn't been proven wrong), and nothing but a circular argument to support their claims. It has not contributed anything to this thread, which has run it's course a long time ago.
This is about the thousandth time* someone has come to the same conclusion as you JinxDragon, and asked Ton to provide proof. And it is the thousandth time** Ton has been unable or unwilling to do anything other than argue and deflect.

Please, can we drop it? It won't do any good.

*"slightly" exaggerating.
**Still exaggerating!

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

I see. So if you agree with someone they don't have to repeat themselves every time, but if you disagree they do?
As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

@rookshunter - did you have anything to contribute other than more disparaging remarks?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

I see. So if you agree with someone they don't have to repeat themselves every time, but if you disagree they do?
As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

@rookshunter - did you have anything to contribute other than more disparaging remarks?

As rookshunter said, please post the RaW that supports (very precisely) that Unit targeting is "before they BF" and " targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase"

Because that is simply wrong, per RaW targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence, Step 2. That is the ONLY RaW timing when you can invoke targeting.

Rulebook wrote:"2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see."

Look, i have supported my claim with some RaW. I know Rigeld doesn't always support his arguments every post, and neither do I. But when it is asked for in order to resolve an argument, I usually provide and so does Jinx.
Now please support your assertions with the RaW that covers " targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase".

I think the thing people are missing is the lack of the phrase "At the start of the shooting phase"
It does say "in the shooting phase", so RAW, it could be after you use battle focus to go around a corner.

Tonberry7,
My point was that I have, personally, seen the Rules which they have posted and seen all the discussion surrounding those Rules so directing such a statement to them would be illogical and dishonest. Not only have they posted why your conclusions are incorrect and even pointed out what the Rules actually state, repetitively I might add, but they have not ignored repeat requests to post the Rules which support their arguments. Should I request them to post those Rules again, I am sure the response back would be 'sure, here is the Rule' and not something along the lines of 'read the previous threads.' If their response back was anything other then that, then I will be more then willing to direct such a statement towards them.

So lets do an experiment:
Tonberry7, please post the Rules which support your position
Rest of board, please post the Rules which support your position
- Hint, I would start by posting Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence and when the timing leading up to how the Sequence is evoked.

The core problem Jinx, is that unlike 6th, there is no caveat that states that a "new target must be chosen" for models being out of range. 6th had that for both LOS and Range, however 7th only requires a new target to get chosen if there is no LOS. Choosing a model as a target of your shooting attack and not having any weapons to shoot appears to be perfectly legit in 7th. Other than this type of odd situation, it functions almost no different than 6th.

Fragile,
That was discussed and even I have flagged as an interesting twist in the current edition, but it is actually irrelevant to the core of the discussion outside of an interesting side note. It is still entirely possible for the Unit to evoke the Special Rule, move out of Line of Sight, and then be in the exact same situation. So while that twist in the current edition might be interesting it does not support Tonberry7's argument that the Unit must carry out it's targeting, before it makes use of it's Special Rule, and that it can not change that target once it has been proven to be invalid as per Step 2.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Why are you picking the start of the shooting phase for the if possible?
Why not say that you must deep strike closer to begin with, so that you're not eliminating possible shots?

I think you either need to:
1) Deep strike so that all your hawks are within range and line of sight of the the entire enemy unit, so you will always have the option to shoot them
Or
2) Check to see if your are in range and line of sight when you reach the choosing a target step.

If you're saying you can't battle focus away, then you must battle focus closer, then you must deep strike closer. As they are all "possible", and all choices you make before you choose to fire.

I don't have access to my book at the moment, but I am pretty sure that Range is defined as the maximum range that the weapon can be shot at and is covered in the weapons section. So being out of the maximum range of all of your weapons would prevent the hawks from declaring the other unit as a target.

Also, in the shooting phase it states to check Range and LoS, why are you checking range if it has no bearing on target selection?


I also still have seen nothing to indicate that target selection / determination of possible targets occurs at any time before you have declared you are shooting with the unit. Since with the Battle Focus special rule, you can either run and then shoot or shoot then run, but you only declare one action at a time, and the other action must be declared before another unit takes action. So in the case of running away from the initial grenade pack target, you would not check range or line of sight for purposes of target selection until after the run move was made.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Why are you picking the start of the shooting phase for the if possible?
Why not say that you must deep strike closer to begin with, so that you're not eliminating possible shots?

I think you either need to:
1) Deep strike so that all your hawks are within range and line of sight of the the entire enemy unit, so you will always have the option to shoot them
Or
2) Check to see if your are in range and line of sight when you reach the choosing a target step.

If you're saying you can't battle focus away, then you must battle focus closer, then you must deep strike closer. As they are all "possible", and all choices you make before you choose to fire.

Well put. I'll +1 that with a "It was possible for you to roll Gate of Infinity and have a jetbike seer zip over there too" to the list of obnoxious interpretations of "possible".

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

...

JinxDragon wrote:

...
So lets do an experiment:
Tonberry7, please post the Rules which support your position
Rest of board, please post the Rules which support your position
- Hint, I would start by posting Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence and when the timing leading up to how the Sequence is evoked.

Sure, im game! Just give me a few hours, im on the road, 6 hr drive visiting relatives. After dinner, ill break out the laptop and do a big ol' rules heavy post on exactly how it works.
Itll be a repeat of a lot of whats been posted already, but itll be fun.

I'm moving right now - don't really have the ability to do all my quotes. I'll refer to my previous posts (sorry).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

It's relevant because a) using BF is optional while ignoring the restriction to must target the same unit is not, and b) had you actually read the BF rules you'd have noticed that you can also shoot before running, and not just run then shoot as you are claiming (with no rules citations, I might add).

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

How about this one: "During the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy."

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

It's relevant because a) using BF is optional while ignoring the restriction to must target the same unit is not, and b) had you actually read the BF rules you'd have noticed that you can also shoot before running, and not just run then shoot as you are claiming (with no rules citations, I might add).

No one is discussing shooting before they BF, so the comment wasn't relevant to the discussion. Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

How about this one: "During the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy."

Nope. Still doesn't support it. You can fire, but there's rules that you follow to fire. It's called the shooting sequence - something that you can't just do willy-nilly, but only when you do a shooting attack (which, for this discussion, is after the unit runs out of range/LoS).

We ended up driving two days, (18 hours) w/o reliable Internet, and I wasn't about to do this on my phone, so had to wait until we got to the hotel.

Let me first say, I apologize for this wall of text. I believe I've only presented here the information needed to articulate my point, and provide rules support to back it up.
Oh, and last time I did a text wall, several people replied that I was wrong, but they misquoted/misunderstood/didn't read it. When you reply, please make sure you read the part you comment on (in context too please).

Ok? We're all set. Hold on to your butts! We're going for a ride:

Grenade pack (Codex: Eldar p.66)
Any time a unit with a grenade pack enters play by Deep Strike and does not suffer a Deep Strike mishap, nominate one model in the unit immediately after it arrives. That model can make a single special shooting attack in the Movement phase with the profile below - this represents the unit’s grenade pack attack.
A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible.

Note four things with this rule:
1, the unit retains the ability to shoot in the shooting phase, although it is not required to.
2, it does not create a special rule where targets are checked at any time other than what you'd normally do in the shooting phase, so the shooting phase rules take precedence. To this effect, GP also does not make any claims against Battle Focus, forcing the unit to or not to use it, or to do either running or shooting in any particular order. It also does not say the unit cannot run if they so choose to do that either.
3, realize the “...if possible.” part of GP only triggers when you actually go to target something, it is not conferring a “super magical” special rule regarding targeting that forces all of your actions from this point on to make sure the Hawk unit is able to target the same unit when the time comes in the shooting phase.
4, it must target the same unit targeted with the grenade pack if possible. Again, this has not created any special rule on when/how to target, just that when it targets in the shooting phase, it must target the same unit if possible. Therefore, we follow the normal rules in the BRB for when and how we target a unit.

Now lets check BF:

Battle Focus (Codex: Eldar p.25)
A unit that contains only models with the Battle Focus special rule can either shoot and then Run, or Run and then shoot, in the same Shooting phase. The unit must complete both actions before you move onto the next unit – otherwise the chance to make the second action is forfeit.
A model cannot Run if it fired a Heavy weapon during the same Shooting phase unless it has the Relentless special rule. Similarly, a model that has Run cannot then fire a Heavy weapon in the same Shooting phase unless it has the Relentless special rule. Models that cannot Run gain no benefit from the Battle Focus special rule.

Note three things with this rule:
1, Units with BF do not have to use it. If they do, they do each complete action, in the order they choose. There is no special rules added other than it can do both run and shoot actions during the Shooting phase in whatever order chosen, compared to a normal unit w/o BF who can only do one or the other.
2, Again, there is no special rules for targeting mentioned or added by this rule.
Now pay attention, this is the important part.
3, Because neither the Grenade pack or BF rules add any special rules or instructions to modify or change how to handle how targeting is done (other than having to target the original target unit of the GP if possible), then we must use the targeting rules as presented in the BRB. The BRB's targeting rules are handled in The Shooting Phase.

Here is the start of the shooting phase:

THE SHOOTING PHASE (The Rules, aka BRB p.30-31 ← someone double check me on these pages please.)
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer
40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting
phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order
for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is
explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting
sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have
completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack,
carry on to the Assault phase.

Remember, these opening two paragraphs are little more than literary rules explaining that you will use the following steps as the actual rules you follow to complete the shooting process. As you can plainly see, no where in these paragraphs are you instructed to check or measure any targets.
Therefore, targeting is handled during the shooting phase sequence as mentioned above. Lets take a look at the Sequence now:

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.

Ok so far, we already know we're dealing with our Hawks, so we can nominate them for the first step.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
…

Hot dog! Right there as the second step is “Choose a Target.” By looking further in the detail of that second step we see this:

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy
unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from
your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line
of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to
your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
Line of Sight
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model
in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.

For now, this is more than enough from that section to complete the analysis. As you can see, in order to target a unit, you must check the range and los. You will have these restrictions:
-You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
-At least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit.

There is also stuff about selecting a weapon which kinda seems is under debate (if the unit is out of range is it still target-able), but for our purposes, and this example, it does not matter either way. (if you don't have los to a unit, it is not possible to target that unit)

All said and done right? OH, wait.... What about BF?
Well, lets look at one more rule:

RUN (The Rules, aka BRB p.31 ← someone double check me on the page please.)
At times, warriors may have to redeploy quickly, literally running from cover to cover or
simply concentrating on movement and giving up their chance to shoot. In their Shooting
phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing. Roll a D6 to determine the maximum
Run distance for the entire unit. Models in the unit may then immediately move up to
that distance in inches. They may choose not to move after the roll is made, but still count
as having Run.

In order for a unit to run, it must decline to shoot, therefore running preempts the shooting sequence altogether. To put it another way, the shooting sequence is forgone altogether for the sake of running, so when a unit runs, there has been no targeting in the shooting phase. If it was a normal run, there would then never be any targeting done in that shooting phase for that unit.

On the other hand, If our Hawk unit decides to BF, and chooses to run first, it is totally allowed to do so. Not only that, but it can run to where it is out of los of the GP target, so when it then chooses to shoot as the second part of BF, as it is unable to target that unit per GP's request, it can therefore elect to target a different unit, as the OP originally suggested.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

It's relevant because a) using BF is optional while ignoring the restriction to must target the same unit is not, and b) had you actually read the BF rules you'd have noticed that you can also shoot before running, and not just run then shoot as you are claiming (with no rules citations, I might add).

No one is discussing shooting before they BF, so the comment wasn't relevant to the discussion.

Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

How about this one: "During the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy."

Nope. Still doesn't support it. You can fire, but there's rules that you follow to fire. It's called the shooting sequence - something that you can't just do willy-nilly, but only when you do a shooting attack (which, for this discussion, is after the unit runs out of range/LoS).

Nope. I'm aware of the shooting sequence but you don't really seem to be making any point here. Are you claiming you can't shoot at any point in the shooting phase? Or still persisting with the claim that you can't shoot and then run using BF?

Tonberry7,
You have still failed to quote a rule that requires us to begin targeting BEFORE battle focus. Please find and quote it. This si the only thing that could validate your argument.

Tonberry7,
While it is irrelevant to what your opponents are actually saying, their point has always been that one does not officially Target till resolving Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence, I want to point out that one of your straw-man is not actually incorrect:
One can not simply shoot at any point during the Shooting Phase.

The Phases themselves have a block of time called 'The Start' and 'The End' which are dedicated to Rules that must be resolved on these two points in the time line. The existence of Rules which have this priority is actually what prevents us from evoking the Shooting Sequence 'at any time.' As the Shooting Sequence does not have any dedicated Timings involved, it can only be resolved in the 'middle' of the Phase after all the 'Start of the Shooting Phase' Rule have been resolved. Should there be no Rules that use specific timing, we start resolving all the remaining Rules as per these instructions:
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

As the Shooting Sequence triggers at no specific time it can only be resolved once no more 'start of phase' Rules remain.
When the player whose turn it is decides to Resolve it

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

I think this decides it.

Of course we all agree that if you shoot first, and BF second and you are in LOS/range to the Unit you used Grenade pack on, you Must target them....

When did we ever state that was wrong?

Of course, this is irrelevant to the OP's question: "If target is not out of sight, battle focus out of range. Proceed to shoot secondary target."
And in such a case (BF first, followed by shooting) your initial position:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Which we have all proved is wrong. If you Battle Focus out of LOS or range first, you get a shot at your second target.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
While it is irrelevant to what your opponents are actually saying, their point has always been that one does not officially Target till resolving Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence, I want to point out that one of your straw-man is not actually incorrect:
One can not simply shoot at any point during the Shooting Phase.

The Phases themselves have a block of time called 'The Start' and 'The End' which are dedicated to Rules that must be resolved on these two points in the time line. The existence of Rules which have this priority is actually what prevents us from evoking the Shooting Sequence 'at any time.' As the Shooting Sequence does not have any dedicated Timings involved, it can only be resolved in the 'middle' of the Phase after all the 'Start of the Shooting Phase' Rule have been resolved. Should there be no Rules that use specific timing, we start resolving all the remaining Rules as per these instructions:
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

As the Shooting Sequence triggers at no specific time it can only be resolved once no more 'start of phase' Rules remain.
When the player whose turn it is decides to Resolve it

I'm sorry. I thought the shooting phase started following the conclusion of the psychic phase. Which start of phase rules are you referring to exactly?

The Start and End of a Phase
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at the start of a particular phase, such as ‘at the start of your Movement phase’ or ‘at the start of your Shooting phase’. These are always resolved before anything else during that phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts.

BrB quote of what Jinx most probably referred to. My emphasis for a guess at specific referral. The highlighted suggests there is a time "before/after anything else" which would separate "The Psychic phase" and "The shooting Phase".

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

I think this decides it.

Of course we all agree that if you shoot first, and BF second and you are in LOS/range to the Unit you used Grenade pack on, you Must target them....

When did we ever state that was wrong?

Of course, this is irrelevant to the OP's question: "If target is not out of sight, battle focus out of range. Proceed to shoot secondary target."
And in such a case (BF first, followed by shooting) your initial position:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Which we have all proved is wrong. If you Battle Focus out of LOS or range first, you get a shot at your second target.

Please remind me how you have proved it is not possible to target the first unit.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

You were?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Your very first post in the thread discusses using BF first and then attempting to shoot. So no, you were not discussing shooting before BF all along.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

I've underlined in the quote above where you claimed that. I'm not misrepresenting, you're misremembering your own argument.

Nope. I'm aware of the shooting sequence but you don't really seem to be making any point here. Are you claiming you can't shoot at any point in the shooting phase? Or still persisting with the claim that you can't shoot and then run using BF?

Your claim was that you cannot BF out of range and then shoot a secondary target (again, see the post above). You've cited nothing to prove that claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Please remind me how you have proved it is not possible to target the first unit.

Because you must have LoS and range to the first unit to be able to target it - as I've proven (since you haven't attempted to disprove it...).
Since the assumption is that the BF gets us out of range/LoS, it's not possible to target the first unit and therefore you are permitted to target a second unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

You were?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Your very first post in the thread discusses using BF first and then attempting to shoot. So no, you were not discussing shooting before BF all along.

I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

I've underlined in the quote above where you claimed that. I'm not misrepresenting, you're misremembering your own argument.

I remember perfectly well what my argument is. As discussed, the underlined does not say what you are claiming it to. So yes, you're either deliberately misrepresenting my argument or just haven't read it properly.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nope. I'm aware of the shooting sequence but you don't really seem to be making any point here. Are you claiming you can't shoot at any point in the shooting phase? Or still persisting with the claim that you can't shoot and then run using BF?

Your claim was that you cannot BF out of range and then shoot a secondary target (again, see the post above). You've cited nothing to prove that claim.

I've cited the grenade pack rules. You've cited nothing to prove the hawks can ignore the restriction in the grenade pack rules.

rigeld2 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Please remind me how you have proved it is not possible to target the first unit.

Because you must have LoS and range to the first unit to be able to target it - as I've proven (since you haven't attempted to disprove it...).
Since the assumption is that the BF gets us out of range/LoS, it's not possible to target the first unit and therefore you are permitted to target a second unit.

I'm not attempting to disprove it because the assumption of my argument is actually that the hawks DS within range/LoS of the first unit. Again you're misrepresenting me.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

yes please answer this, and explain why.

Tonberry,
Phase... As in start of movement phase or start of shooting phase.
You know, the primary way that many Rules tell us to resolve them before we evoke / resolve other Rules....

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.

I don't get why this obnoxious behavior is tolerated.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.

So what about
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Dark reapers fire upon the Tac squad and kill the whole unit.
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.

Except that when they shoot, it's not possible to target the Tac squad. And before they shoot it's not possible to target the Tac squad because they can't attempt to target anything.

I'm in the camp that you still have to shoot at the unit that you dropped grenades on. If it just so happens that your weapons are out of range and thus unable to do anything that is strictly your fault for being out of range. Or in the case that you have Battle Focused your unit so that a vehicle is in the way you may discuss with your opponent that your shots are now resolved against the vehicle or that they straight up miss as the hawks try to curve their lasers around the vehicle.

If the enemy unit is killed by a different one of your units then by all means shoot at a different unit because you get to decide in which order your units shoot. If the game developers wanted you to decide what shoots at what all at once they would have made that rule.

 Barrywise wrote:
I'm in the camp that you still have to shoot at the unit that you dropped grenades on. If it just so happens that your weapons are out of range and thus unable to do anything that is strictly your fault for being out of range. Or in the case that you have Battle Focused your unit so that a vehicle is in the way you may discuss with your opponent that your shots are now resolved against the vehicle or that they straight up miss as the hawks try to curve their lasers around the vehicle.

If the enemy unit is killed by a different one of your units then by all means shoot at a different unit because you get to decide in which order your units shoot. If the game developers wanted you to decide what shoots at what all at once they would have made that rule.

So it is ok to choose to kill the grenade'ed squad with a different unit but not ok to choose to BF away to get out of LoS/Range. It's not like i get to choose the order in which I decide to run then shoot, oh wait yeah i do.

 Barrywise wrote:
I'm in the camp that you still have to shoot at the unit that you dropped grenades on. If it just so happens that your weapons are out of range and thus unable to do anything that is strictly your fault for being out of range. Or in the case that you have Battle Focused your unit so that a vehicle is in the way you may discuss with your opponent that your shots are now resolved against the vehicle or that they straight up miss as the hawks try to curve their lasers around the vehicle.

Surely you have some rules to cite to support your position?
It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?

If the enemy unit is killed by a different one of your units then by all means shoot at a different unit because you get to decide in which order your units shoot. If the game developers wanted you to decide what shoots at what all at once they would have made that rule.

How is this different from BFing out of range?

rigeld2 wrote:
It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?

I agree with your argument in this thread, but this is wrong.

If you BF out of range, the Grenade Pack rules allow you to target an alternative target, but it is possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range. A rather peculiar choice, but a legally valid one.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?

I agree with your argument in this thread, but this is wrong.

Shooting phase never restricts your targeting out of range.

Except it does. As I've proven in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to actually read all of my posts instead of jumping in at the end? But just for you...

Can you shoot at things that are out of range? No.
Can you choose to shoot at something out of range? No.
Can you decide to shoot at something that is out of range? No.
Since we know (from the above) that choosing a target is the same as deciding which one to shoot at, and you cannot decide to shoot at something out of range, you cannot choose a target that is out of range.

And please, if you still disagree, cite the rules in Grenade Pack that allow you to pick a new target if you're out of range.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?

I agree with your argument in this thread, but this is wrong.

Shooting phase never restricts your targeting out of range.

Except it does. As I've proven in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to actually read all of my posts instead of jumping in at the end? But just for you...

Spoiler:

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.

Can you shoot at things that are out of range? No.
Can you choose to shoot at something out of range? No.
Can you decide to shoot at something that is out of range? No.
Since we know (from the above) that choosing a target is the same as deciding which one to shoot at, and you cannot decide to shoot at something out of range, you cannot choose a target that is out of range.

And please, if you still disagree, cite the rules in Grenade Pack that allow you to pick a new target if you're out of range.

The rules were cited in the Spoiler: "Can still shoot: You can't shoot out of Range, so you get "if possible" => not possible and a new choice of target."

Which is the same wording as "choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at".

So indeed, in a roundabout way "cannot target out of range" from previous Editions still exists. (conceded)

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I've cited the grenade pack rules. You've cited nothing to prove the hawks can ignore the restriction in the grenade pack rules.

And I've already explained your argument is invalid. Maybe you are the one who should be told to read the thread posts, because you've obviously missed it.
You still seem to believe the "...if possible" means that IF you can make it so that the hawks can target the GP target during the shooting phase, you are obligated to do so. This is not true. As I, and numerous others have stated, the "...if possible" only triggers when the hawks are in the shooting phase, step 2. The GP rule does not obligate the hawk unit to move or perform in any way shape or form, other than in step 2 of the shooting phase, it checks a condition as per the GP rule. Oher than that it does nothing.

Rigeld2,
It is likely an over-sight in the move towards 'Weapon Groups,' someone likely moved the 'can not shoot at target' portion for Range down to that section without realizing that they created a broken formula in the Targeting Rules by doing so. This over-sight makes it entirely possible to Target a Unit that is out of Range of any Weapon, because checking for Range does not contain a clause which tells us what to do if in or out of Range.... So we check, check off the box that we checked, and move on regardless of the Results.

What that fails to do is prove Tonberry7 correct though, as Range is irrelevant to his concept of 'must shoot first.'

JinxDragon wrote:
Rigeld2,
It is likely an over-sight in the move towards 'Weapon Groups,' someone likely moved the 'can not shoot at target' portion for Range down to that section without realizing that they created a broken formula in the Targeting Rules by doing so. This over-sight makes it entirely possible to Target a Unit that is out of Range of any Weapon, because checking for Range does not contain a clause which tells us what to do if in or out of Range.... So we check, check off the box that we checked, and move on regardless of the Results.

So you disagree with how I spelled it out?
Please - address my argument and show where I'm wrong.

Allow me to review it when I am back at a book and can look over details more closely, but a quick preliminary of my thoughts:
What prevents us from declaring a target that is out of Range as the Target after we complete the check the Range portion of the Quoted Rule, even if we determine that it is out-of-range?

The Rule you quoted informs us how we go about declaring a target, but there is nothing within that prevents us from declaring a target to a Unit which is out side Range. There is specific instructions within the Line of Sight Rules which trigger when a Unit is outside this measurement, all designed to prevent the Unit from being a legal target, that clearly are missing from Range. The absence of this Rule makes it possible to state that we have 'checked Range as required' and are moving on to the declaring which Unit to Shoot at. There are a few Rules I need to review that might further support your argument though, so that is just preliminaries from what was posted in your quoted section.

JinxDragon wrote:
Allow me to review it when I am back at a book and can look over details more closely.
The problem still likely lies with the 'check line and range' portion, as it doesn't state what to do after we confirm the Unit is outside / inside range.

I quoted it literally word for word in the spoiler.
And it does. As I've explained. Please, pick apart what I've said.

Then please review my edited post as I have put more detail into the line of thought I was having but I have repeated it below in sorts:
As mentioned, there are secondary Rules I will need to review which might further support your concept but the quoted Rule does not make 'out of Range' an issue. It requires us to measure a range, which is a physical act of determining how many Inches are between the two Models, and we can 'check' that off the list even without taking the number into account. This is because the quoted section completely fails to inform us what to do if the Range comes back as 'In' or if it comes back as 'out.' For Line-of-Sight this has been covered by instructions literally stating that the Unit can no longer be selected as a legal Target.

It is entirely possible we check Range at that point for no reason more then to prevent ourselves from shameful situation of learning we don't actually have a Weapon that can reach the target and no longer have the ability to change this decision....

To further highlight the reasoning behind this line of thought, the Rule you quoted has the words To do so after telling us to choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. Therefore the following instructions are how we go about Choosing an Enemy Unit to shoot at, and your question of 'can we shoot at them' has been answered by 'Yes, if we follow these instructions. If there is no further requirement then to check Range we can meet that requirement by finding out the distance between the two Models. This could confirm they are outside Line of Range, but we have been granted Permission to still nominate them as the Unit we are going to be shooting at.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Rule you quoted informs us how we go about declaring a target, but there is nothing within that prevents us from declaring a target to a Unit which is out side Range.

I've addressed that.
Are you allowed to shoot at targets that are out of range?

As the Rule states To do so the answer is Yes....

These are instructions informing us how we go about choos(ing) a single enemy unit for them to shoot at so the word 'to do so' are in direct relation to the act of choosing. Therefore you will need to provide a requirement within those instructions that tells us we can not Nominate a Target that is outside of Range. If no such requirement exists, then Checking Range is simply done by putting down a ruler and stating 'done, I have measured Range and found it to be X inches.' Now it is far more likely that the requirement that all Weapons must be in Range before a Unit can be shot at will be located in a different Rule, the one for Line of Sight was, but the Rule you quoted does not support the conclusion you keep coming too if isolated to itself.

JinxDragon wrote:
As the Rule states To do so the answer is Yes....

No, it doesn't.
There is no rule telling you to shoot at a unit that is out of range. Indeed, it's impossible to do so and would be breaking a rule.
We are told to check the range, correct?

So if it's outside of your maximum range, you cannot shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
As the Rule states To do so the answer is Yes....

These are instructions informing us how we go about choos(ing) a single enemy unit for them to shoot at so the word 'to do so' are in direct relation to the act of choosing. Therefore you will need to provide a requirement within those instructions that tells us we can not Nominate a Target that is outside of Range. If no such requirement exists, then Checking Range is simply done by putting down a ruler and stating 'done, I have measured Range and found it to be X inches.' Now it is far more likely that the requirement that all Weapons must be in Range before a Unit can be shot at will be located in a different Rule, the one for Line of Sight was, but the Rule you quoted does not support the conclusion you keep coming too if isolated to itself.

It's like you haven't read any of my posts.

Can you shoot at things that are out of range? No. (You dispute this. Cite rules.)
Can you choose to shoot at something out of range? No.
Can you decide to shoot at something that is out of range? No.
Since we know (from the above) that choosing a target is the same as deciding which one to shoot at, and you cannot decide to shoot at something out of range, you cannot choose a target that is out of range.

Same Rule you quoted, I am just not ignoring these three words:
To Do So

So what does the 'to do so' part of these instructions tell us we are doing?
If it is not choosing which Target we are going to shoot at, what is it telling us to do?

JinxDragon wrote:
Same Rule you quoted, I am just not ignoring these three words:
To Do So

So you can shoot at things that are out of range. Despite the rules telling you otherwise. That's your actual stance?

So what does the 'to do so' part of these instructions tell us we are doing?
If it is not choosing which Target we are going to shoot at, what is it telling us to do?

Read the entire sentence, including "deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent". Your assertion is that you can declare a target that is out of range, and then go ahead and shoot at it?

The rest of the Shooting Sequence will at least be quick....

Let us break this quoted Rule down,shall we:
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, - Timing Restraint telling us when these instructions are followed
choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. - What we do when the above Timing Restraint is met, if left there it would let us select any Unit to shoot at
To do so - To do What if not detailing how we go about choosing an enemy? - Please do not ignore this part of the Rule, it is a joining term to link the instructions together....
you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting - A Requirement to physically check the Range of a Target, but one which fails to inform us what to do if we find the value is X or Y - those are addressed outside of this Rule
Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units - Permission to do this multiple times before making a decision, in order to prevent us being in a 'can not target, can not re-measure' situation
before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. - a Requirement to decide to shoot at just one Unit and inform our opponent which Unit that is
You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat. - Restriction against targeting a Unit that is Locked in Combat

So, please point out where in the Rule that you originally quoted as 'stand-alone-evidence' is the restriction stating that I can not declare a target if the Check Range instruction comes back as 'out of Range?'

JinxDragon wrote:
The rest of the Shooting Sequence will at least be quick....

Let us break this quoted Rule down,shall we:
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, - Timing Restraint telling us when these instructions are followed
choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. - What we do when the above Timing Restraint is met, if left there it would let us select any Unit to shoot at
To do so - To do What if not detailing how we go about choosing an enemy? - Please do not ignore this part of the Rule, it is a joining term to link the instructions together....
you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting - A Requirement to physically check the Range of a Target, but one which fails to inform us what to do if we find the value is X or Y - those are addressed outside of this Rule
Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units - Permission to do this multiple times before making a decision, in order to prevent us being in a 'can not target, can not re-measure' situation
before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. - a Requirement to decide to shoot at just one Unit and inform our opponent which Unit that is
You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat. - Restriction against targeting a Unit that is Locked in Combat

So, please point out where in the Rule that you originally quoted as 'stand-alone-evidence' is the restriction stating that I can not declare a target if the Check Range instruction comes back as 'out of Range?'

I've underlined the two clauses. To be able to declare you're doing something you must actually be able to do it. If you cannot shoot at something, you cannot declare that you're going to shoot at that thing to your opponent.
I'm not ignoring "To do so". At all. One of the things "To do so" requires you to do is declare your choice of what you're going to shoot at. According to your argument, you can do this by declaring that you're going to shoot at a unit that is out of range - which is impossible.

I could make a comment about repeating one's self is not evidence of who is correct, but maybe if I address your core concept you will do me the pleasure of addressing mine.

The core of your argument is that we must be able to physically shoot at something before we can declare that we will be shooting at it, correct?
I won't fault the common sense logic behind such a stance if that is correct, for if we can prove that that no shots are being generated then it is possible to state we are incapable of 'shooting at' another Unit. It is the sort of argument I would use to justify a 'How I would Play it' argument over the very same topic. It would address the Authors mistake of forgetting a 'Out of Range = Can not Target' Rule like they did for Line-of-sight, which is clearly an oversight as it makes no sense to allow us to Target something to shoot at that we can not physically shoot at.

Now, my issue is simply this:
If we obey the instructions telling us how we go about choose(ing) a single enemy unit for them to shoot at, why would it matter if some later step in the process generates 0 Shots?
It might not be common sense approved, like many things in Warhammer 40k fail to be, but from a Rule as Written perspective we would need something literally stating that anything out-of-range can not be targeted in order for 'check range' to have a purpose. Without those instructions, and because we are checking range to begin with it clear that such instructions should exist from an Intent point of view, then there is nothing stating that something In range does X while something out of range does Y.

So where in the Rule you quoted does it state that we can not shoot at a target with 0 shots?

If It helps to frame the whole academical debate consider this question: If we Roll a To Hit dice as part of Resolving Psychic Shreek and it misses, what happens?
Many will point out that the rest of the Rule still resolves, because there is nothing stating that the To Hit has to be successful for the rest of the Rule to function....

JinxDragon wrote:
It might not be common sense approved, like many things in Warhammer 40k fail to be, but from a Rule as Written perspective we would need something literally stating that anything out-of-range can not be targeted in order for 'check range' to have a purpose. Again, such a Restriction very likely exists in another place but you are the one that wanted us to focus only on the single quoted Rule. So where in the Rule you quoted does it state that we can not shoot at a target with 0 shots?

Because shooting at something with 0 shots isn't shooting at it... it's demonstrably not shooting. As in, you don't shoot.
So if you're not shooting, how can you declare what you're shooting at? Chewbacca does not live on Endor.

And as you said, the rule requires us to check range - correct? Well how do we do that? oh - there's a rule for that as well...

Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.

So if something is out of range it cannot shoot. So if you're really confused, this should clear it up. Although I appreciate stretching the RAW to see where it's broken, saying you're going to shoot me with 0 weapons is beyond that - I know you're not trolling but it certainly seems like it.

Problems:
1) You wanted me to limit my focus to just the Rule you previously quoted, not to any secondary Rules that might better explain the situation
2) Where in the Rule you just quoted does it state we can not target a Unit if 0 shots are being generated during the Shooting Sequence?

Again, you are arguing common sense and I understand that... so please understand that I am focusing on Rule as Written which does not allow for 'common sense' to be a factor and accept that:
I have a Rule which tells me how to go about choose(ing) a target to shoot at and if I obey that Rule to the letter then what prevents me from having chosen a target to shoot at?
If you state 'the inability to actually generate a shot' then please quote a Rule which makes it illegal to Target an Enemy with 0 shots....

JinxDragon wrote:
Problems:
1) You wanted me to limit my focus to just the Rule you previously quoted, not to any secondary Rules that might better explain the situation
2) Where in the Rule you just quoted does it state we can not target a Unit if 0 shots are being generated during the Shooting Sequence?

1) I quoted the other rule because you seemed to be confused and think that you can shoot 0 shots.
2) Because... fine, I'll quote more. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that rules could be read in order and that certain things could be taken for granted. How far back should I go - the beginning of the shooting phase?

NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

We can see that shooting == making a shooting attack.

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to make a shooting attack with, choose a single enemy unit for them to make a shooting attack at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to make a shooting attack at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.

I've edited this to clarify where the equation comes in.
I'll also edit my previous questions to help clarify.

Again, you are arguing common sense and I understand that so please understand that I am focusing on Rule as Written which does not allow for 'common sense' to be a factor:
I have a Rule which tells me how to go about "choosing a target to shoot at" and if I obey that Rule to the letter then I have 'chosen a Target to Shoot at' ... prove otherwise.

No, you do not have permission to nominate a target for a shooting attack that is out of range.

Nothing in your post contains a requirement that we verify the number of Shots prior to nominating a Target to shoot at. Nothing you have posted supports the concept that a Shooting Attack that consists of 0 shots is somehow illegal, even though there are many ways to have 0 Shots during several points in the shooting sequence. Even with the Rule reworded so shoot with' is replaced with 'Shooting Attack,' nothing supports the conclusion that the Shooting Attack itself must contain more then 0 Shots to be legal. This is because the instructions are now telling us how to go about nominating an Enemy Unit to be the Target of a Shooting Attack, so completing them as written means we have legally selected a Target of the Shooting Attack.

So I ask once more because you repetitively refuse to address the core of my concerns:
Where, outside of common sense itself, does it state that a Unit can not make a Shooting Attack of 0 shots?

Two thought experiments I had while I was pondering the concept that Shooting Attacks that consist of 0 Shots is somehow illegal:
I have a target in Range of one Weapon, but I won't be able to assault after I fire that weapon
Like an idiot I declare that Unit the Target of my Shooting attack and only realize the error after Step 2 in the process as I really wanted that Assault
I evoke my permission to choose not to fire a Weapon in order to correct this Error, as I do have permission to choose not to shoot a Weapon during this step of the process
- What happens now the Shooting Attack consists of 0 shots?

I have a single Model Unit, that is in Range of an Enemy Unit, armed with a Plasma Cannon
That single Model fails the Get's Hot Roll and the weapon is forbidden from firing
- What happens now the Shooting Attack consists of 0 shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At this point let us offer an olive branch because this argument is getting ridiculous:
You are arguing Common Sense
I am arguing strict Rule as Written

Let us both accept that we are simply not arguing the same thing and move on. If we do not, we will simply go around in circles as we continue to demanding that other person accept our 'Frame of the Debate' as the only correct method to review the Rule. As I am unwilling to abandon the 'strict Rule as Written' stance in order to meet you half way, because broken Rule interactions is where I find enjoyment in these debates, and you are unwilling to abandon 'Common Sense,' because it is completely ridiculous to have a Shooting Attack of 0 Shots, we will never come to an agreement over this. That will save us another two pages of me underlining 'To Do So' and you underlining the 'to shoot at' as if those two parts of the Rule are all that matters....

I've started a thread to discuss the legality of targeting a unit out of range, here.

Can we please leave this tangent and return to the original question?

Thought that was already answered though Happyjew:-
Step 2 is when Targeting occurs, anything with permission to be resolved prior can be resolved before any Rule which forces Targeting.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.

Except that when they shoot, it's not possible to target the Tac squad. And before they shoot it's not possible to target the Tac squad because they can't attempt to target anything.

You're still ignoring the fact that it is possible to target and shoot the tac squad in the shooting phase. The RAW therefore require them to do so.

This thread seems to have delved back into the "can you target a unit out of range?" side issue. The RAW is clear that you can. There is a explicit requirement to be in LoS to target, but not range. You're trying to argue an implied/RAI position on this which has no RAW support.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
This thread seems to have delved back into the "can you target a unit out of range?" side issue. The RAW is clear that you can.

I would not be so sure about that. Further discussion in the new thread.

However as i pointed out to rigeld, Grenade packs, by their own RaW, allow you to change targets:

A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible.

Are you allowed to "can still shoot" with 0 weapons?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.

Except that when they shoot, it's not possible to target the Tac squad. And before they shoot it's not possible to target the Tac squad because they can't attempt to target anything.

You're still ignoring the fact that it is possible to target and shoot the tac squad in the shooting phase. The RAW therefore require them to do so.

This thread seems to have delved back into the "can you target a unit out of range?" side issue. The RAW is clear that you can. There is a explicit requirement to be in LoS to target, but not range. You're trying to argue an implied/RAI position on this which has no RAW support.

Actually I've proven that you cannot target a unit out of range. It's been requested that we argue that elsewhere however.
And not, it is not possible to target the unit when the unit shoots which is what you repeatedly ignore.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.

Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.

Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.

Legal or illegal?

Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.

Except that when they shoot, it's not possible to target the Tac squad. And before they shoot it's not possible to target the Tac squad because they can't attempt to target anything.

You're still ignoring the fact that it is possible to target and shoot the tac squad in the shooting phase. The RAW therefore require them to do so.

This thread seems to have delved back into the "can you target a unit out of range?" side issue. The RAW is clear that you can. There is a explicit requirement to be in LoS to target, but not range. You're trying to argue an implied/RAI position on this which has no RAW support.

Actually I've proven that you cannot target a unit out of range. It's been requested that we argue that elsewhere however.

Actually you haven't proven that, here or elsewhere.

rigeld2 wrote:
And not, it is not possible to target the unit when the unit shoots which is what you repeatedly ignore.

Except you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that it is possible to target the unit in the shooting phase. If this condition is met, then they must be targeted.

Except you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that it is possible to target the unit in the shooting phase. If this condition is met, then they must be targeted.

Wrong. The only point at which we are given permission to determine whether or not the shot is possible is DURRING Targetting. This is where we check range and LOS, If we decide to Battle Focus BEFORE shooting, it works out fine. Battle Focus only atlers the Declare a Target step, which in this case, takes place AFTER Battle Focus.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Except you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that it is possible to target the unit in the shooting phase. If this condition is met, then they must be targeted.

So while I'm resolving the fire from Wave Serpent #1, is it possible to target the grenaded unit with the Swooping Hawks?
If yes, please cite the rule allowing me to declare a target during another unit's shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Except you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that it is possible to target the unit in the shooting phase. If this condition is met, then they must be targeted.

So while I'm resolving the fire from Wave Serpent #1, is it possible to target the grenaded unit with the Swooping Hawks?
If yes, please cite the rule allowing me to declare a target during another unit's shooting attack.

I'm sorry. Where was the wave serpent in your example and what was it shooting?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Except you're repeatedly ignoring the fact that it is possible to target the unit in the shooting phase. If this condition is met, then they must be targeted.

So while I'm resolving the fire from Wave Serpent #1, is it possible to target the grenaded unit with the Swooping Hawks?
If yes, please cite the rule allowing me to declare a target during another unit's shooting attack.

I'm sorry. Where was the wave serpent in your example and what was it shooting?

How is that relevant? It's over there shooting the unit of scouts. Cite the rule allowing the Hawks to declare a target while I'm resolving the Wave Serpent's shooting.