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I'd like to say I had Tonberry on ignore from the beginning, so I mostly read people who were correct and I'm happy to know I had the rule right.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

They're not ignoring the requirement, they're following the proper order of how the phase works and how BF works, and from your start comment, with respect, you obviously gave up trying to prove your point and seem to be trolling. I'd suggest this thread is done.


@morgoth: you are correct.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

Except that when they declare targets, it is not possible to target them. You're putting the restriction on the unit as soon as the shooting phase starts, with zero rules support. Please, cite a rule that puts the restriction on the unit before Battle Focus is resolved. I'd love to see an actual rules quote from you - for once.

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

@rookshunter. Thanks for calling me a troll. Great argument. I've clearly set out my position. If you have a different interpretation of RAW that's fine but labeling people as trolls because you don't agree is weak.

@morgoth. You'll always think you're correct if you ignore all the people who don't have the same opinion.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.
Remember, it must show that the restriction is in place before the Hawk unit is actually nominated to shoot - as by the time that happens, the first unit is out of range/LoS.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

@rookshunter. Thanks for calling me a troll. Great argument. I've clearly set out my position. If you have a different interpretation of RAW that's fine but labeling people as trolls because you don't agree is weak.

@morgoth. You'll always think you're correct if you ignore all the people who don't have the same opinion.

I call you a troll based on what I've read in this thread (and still do so far, but for this thread only, I don't know you from other threads.) because you are self contradicting (stopped using the word "start" even though that concept was a major supporting part of your argument) and do not support your own arguments with actual rule citations or quotes that support your argument. You've just propagated circular arguments thus far.
I believe it's already been established the rule you are claiming to cite (Grenade Pack) makes no modification to the shooting phase, and therefore doesn't qualify as a special/advanced rule that supersedes anything that goes on in the shooting phase. It only refers to when a certain event in the shooting phase happens, then x is triggered/checked in the rule. Therefore, your argument should be founded in the shooting phase rules, not the Grenade Pack rule. You have not used the correct rules to support your claim that there is some magical target check that happens instantly when the shooting phase starts.

So yes, this is me asking you to make it painfully clear, quote the rulebook word for word with an explanation of why you think it works that way, because I, and it seems many others in this thread, don't understand the logic coming from your mind.

Oh, and Morgoth isn't the one to be chided in this thread....

Edit/Update: Apologies for making this type of update, but I realize I was not totally correct. Technically the Grenade Pack rule does in fact interfere with the shooting phase, but only to the effect of which target can be shot, not when that fact of who can be shot is established, which it seems is what you want it to say. Therefore, the rule(s) you need to cite are still from the Shooting Phase section of the BRB, not the Codex: Eldar.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

??? Please quote a rule that allows us to target a unit that is outside of a weapon's maximum range? You are asserting a specific time on the "if possible" clause. Where are you getting this specific time from?

"it must target the same target unit if possible"

If I elect to Battle Focus, then shoot, would you agree that targeting occurs AFTER Battle Focus? The restriction comes into play when we attempt to target a unit with a shooting attack, not "at the start of the shooting phase" as you claim.

By your logic (or lack of it rather) If a unit of War Walkers wipes the squad that took the grenade, the Hawks still could not fire because technically you could have shot with the Hawks before the War Walkers, making it "possible." However, we know this is not true because, as stated above, the restriction only comes into effect when you attempt to select a target for the Hawk's shooting attack. If it is out of range or LoS for ANY reason, it is not possible to shoot them. The rule doesn't care if it "could have been possible." It only cares if it is possible at the time of target selection.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

The relevant rules quote was provided in the OP. I can post it again if you like.

Nothing in that rules quote actually supports your position. If you disagree, please quote and emphasize the portion that does.

"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

If you really think that it is not possible for a grenade pack unit to target the same unit in the shooting phase if it has LoS and is in range before BF then I cannot help you. It's pretty clear we are interpreting this in different ways though which is unlikely to change.

@rookshunter - if you want to follow my logic just read the thread. If you can't understand it let's just say we disagree. If you'd prefer to just continue to call me a troll you can always just do that instead.

And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It is also possible that a worm hole will fold space time on the table bring the unit back into range, in which case the hawks would indeed have to shoot the nominated target. Failing that though, once they are over 24" away, they cannot target a unit out of range. Cries of ""at the beginning of the phase" must be shown in a rules quote specific to Battle Focus, otherwise cries of "it doesn't say that, but it does say I CAN Battle focus" will loop with one person needing the last word in. You can now have it.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

rigeld2 wrote:And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It's relevant because the actual rule requires you to target the same unit if possible.
So if it's not possible to target the same unit you grenaded, you aren't required to.
And no, the shooting rules require you to be in range and LoS to declare a target. So please, use rules correctly in arguments.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

rigeld2 wrote:And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It's relevant because the actual rule requires you to target the same unit if possible.
So if it's not possible to target the same unit you grenaded, you aren't required to.
And no, the shooting rules require you to be in range and LoS to declare a target. So please, use rules correctly in arguments.

I've clearly demonstrated it's possible to target the same unit you grenaded. And the rules say you must do so if possible.

Also, if you want to use rules correctly in arguments, please cite a rule stating you have to be in range to declare a target.

Will you please just stop feeding him ?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
"A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

rigeld2 wrote:And once you BF out of range, is it possible to target the unit you grenade packed?

Relevance? None. To indulge you however, yes it is possible.

It's relevant because the actual rule requires you to target the same unit if possible.
So if it's not possible to target the same unit you grenaded, you aren't required to.
And no, the shooting rules require you to be in range and LoS to declare a target. So please, use rules correctly in arguments.

I've clearly demonstrated it's possible to target the same unit you grenaded. And the rules say you must do so if possible.

No, you haven't. It's not possible if they're out of range or LoS when it's time to declare a target (part of shooting, not part of Battle Focus).

Also, if you want to use rules correctly in arguments, please cite a rule stating you have to be in range to declare a target.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you aren't in range, you can't shoot at it, and therefore can't declare it as a target to your opponent.

Go ahead - cite a rule disagreeing with me. I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

Rigeld2,
It is very obvious Tonberry7 is wrong, at this point let the thread die.

Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

I'll requote the rule I already cited.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

I'll requote the rule I already cited.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

Yes, you check line of sight and range. However, as I pointed out, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate a unit as a target. It would be pointless to nominate a unit out of range as a target, as you would not be able to shoot them, but nothing actually prevents it. 6th edition, did require the target to be in range of at least one weapon. 7th edition does not.

HappyJew,
Interesting little theory that one, that the Authors informed us to Check the Range during Step 2 without intending for the Range to be a limiting factor when it came to Choosing a Target as per Step 2. From a pure Rule Lawyering point of view, I can't find much to fault the concept. This is because the results of our findings are never discussed within the Rule, if we Check for Range and find out that all our Weapons are out-of-Range we have still completed the 'Check for Range' step of the process. Line of Sight is a bit better because it literally states if the Target is outside of Line of Sight then another Target must be chosen, while Check Range lacks anything forcing us to choose a different Target at that point in time.

So, in order to make Tonberry7's point completely moot ensure the scenario's put forth involve Battle Focusing out of Line of Sight.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually, he does raise an interesting point.

Unless I'm missing something, the only requirement in choosing a target is line of sight.

The rules for Choose A Target, state you check Line of Sight and range to the enemy unit. It then further adds, that in order to target a unit you need Line of Sight.

Note, it does not specify range of the weapons.

The next part, Select A Weapon, is where range of the weapons actually comes into effect. Where the rules state that if a weapon is not in range, it cannot fire.

I'll requote the rule I already cited.

To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

Yes, you check line of sight and range. However, as I pointed out, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate a unit as a target. It would be pointless to nominate a unit out of range as a target, as you would not be able to shoot them, but nothing actually prevents it. 6th edition, did require the target to be in range of at least one weapon. 7th edition does not.

Incorrect. You are required to be able to shoot at them (I bolded the section that says that). Can you shoot at things that are out of range?

This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

Zimko wrote:
This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

So you can declare that you're going to shoot at something you cannot shoot at? Because you have to decide what you're actually going to shoot at, and declare it - and then you have a target.
If you can't shoot at something, how can you declare you're going to shoot at it?

rigeld2 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

So you can declare that you're going to shoot at something you cannot shoot at? Because you have to decide what you're actually going to shoot at, and declare it - and then you have a target.
If you can't shoot at something, how can you declare you're going to shoot at it?

Because as far I can see, the only requirement for declaring a target is Line of Sight. You have permission to measure range, as you've quoted, before picking a target, but range is not a restriction until after you've selected a weapon group to fire with. So yes you can declare a target that you can not fire at with your weapons as long as it is within Line of Sight.

Edit: Sorry I don't have my BRB on me so I can not provide quotes. So please ignore my post until I can find the rules unless someone else is able to provide the relevant quotes.

Zimko wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
This discussion probably needs to be in a new thread, but what you bolded Rigeid2 does not restrict you from voluntarily deciding to target a unit outside of range of your weapons. It only tells you that you MAY check the range and line of sight before deciding on a target. But no where is there a restriction on picking a target within range of your weapons.

Obviously you won't be able to fire your weapons if they're out of range, but you can still declare a target outside of range.

So you can declare that you're going to shoot at something you cannot shoot at? Because you have to decide what you're actually going to shoot at, and declare it - and then you have a target.
If you can't shoot at something, how can you declare you're going to shoot at it?

Because as far I can see, the only requirement for declaring a target is Line of Sight. You have permission to measure range, as you've quoted, before picking a target, but range is not a restriction until after you've selected a weapon group to fire with. So yes you can declare a target that you can not fire at with your weapons as long as it is within Line of Sight.

Edit: Sorry I don't have my BRB on me so I can not provide quotes. So please ignore my post until I can find the rules unless someone else is able to provide the relevant quotes.

You're entirely missing my point.
The delcare a target rules require you to declare what you're going to shoot at. Can you shoot at something that is out of range? If not, how could you declare that you're going to do that?

So you're saying that

targeting = declare what you're going to shoot at

and since you cant shoot at something outside the range of your weapons then you can't target that something.

Sounds correct but I haven't seen a quote to support this and can't check my BRB atm. What you quoted earlier is referring to an action ("To do so..." to do what exactly? Target or shoot?) that I can't check.

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying that

targeting = declare what you're going to shoot at

Yes.

and since you cant shoot at something outside the range of your weapons then you can't target that something.

Sounds correct but I haven't seen a quote to support this and can't check my BRB atm. What you quoted earlier is referring to an action ("To do so..." to do what exactly? Target or shoot?) that I can't check.

As you can see, choosing a target is defined as choosing an enemy unit for them to shoot at. Since you cannot shoot at something that is out of range, you cannot choose to shoot at something that is out of range, so you cannot choose that unit (that is out of range) as a target.

Tonberry isn't correct and neither is Happy.

Thank you for the quotes and now I completely agree with you.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you aren't in range, you can't shoot at it, and therefore can't declare it as a target to your opponent.

Go ahead - cite a rule disagreeing with me.

Well, as several others have kindly pointed out, the only RAW requirement to target a unit is that you can see that unit i.e. have LoS. You are claiming that you also need to be in range. Your quote does not support this, there is no RAW basis for this and you know it. You're now resorting to illogical statements like the one below as you're clearly unwilling to concede the point.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

It's true that to actually shoot at a unit you need to be in range. Again however, as has been pointed out to you, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate it as a target, even if you can't subsequently shoot at it.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

If you aren't in range, you can't shoot at it, and therefore can't declare it as a target to your opponent.

Go ahead - cite a rule disagreeing with me.

Well, as several others have kindly pointed out, the only RAW requirement to target a unit is that you can see that unit i.e. have LoS. You are claiming that you also need to be in range. Your quote does not support this, there is no RAW basis for this and you know it. You're now resorting to illogical statements like the one below as you're clearly unwilling to concede the point.

Excuse me? I've quoted the entire rule and explained exactly how it's laid out. Please quote the part of the rule that defies logic.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you are out of range, you cannot shoot at that target. Agreed?
Meaning you can't decide to shoot at it. Meaning you cannot declare it to your opponent - so you can't target it.

It's true that to actually shoot at a unit you need to be in range. Again however, as has been pointed out to you, the rules do not require you to be in range to nominate it as a target, even if you can't subsequently shoot at it.

They actually do - as I've demonstrated. Perhaps you should try quoting actual rules for once? I made it easy - the relevant rules are in a spoiler in one of my posts. Just copy and paste it. Please.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

And the actual rules don't agree with that statement. As I've shown - by quoting rules. Perhaps you'd indulge me by doing the same?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

And the actual rules don't agree with that statement. As I've shown - by quoting rules. Perhaps you'd indulge me by doing the same?

Apologies, I must have missed your quotes proving this. All I've really seen are some tenuous interpretations. I've already quoted the relevant rules to support my argument and explained my reasoning. If you disagree that's OK but I get the feeling we're going round in circles here.