Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/13 10:46:49
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Confessor Of Sins
|
The Start and End of a Phase
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at the start of a particular phase, such as ‘at the start of your Movement phase’ or ‘at the start of your Shooting phase’. These are always resolved before anything else during that phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts.
BrB quote of what Jinx most probably referred to. My emphasis for a guess at specific referral. The highlighted suggests there is a time "before/after anything else" which would separate "The Psychic phase" and "The shooting Phase".
|
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/13 12:08:55
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
|
BlackTalos wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.
This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.
I think this decides it.
Of course we all agree that if you shoot first, and BF second and you are in LOS/range to the Unit you used Grenade pack on, you Must target them....
When did we ever state that was wrong?
Of course, this is irrelevant to the OP's question: "If target is not out of sight, battle focus out of range. Proceed to shoot secondary target."
And in such a case ( BF first, followed by shooting) your initial position:
Tonberry7 wrote:By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.
I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.
Which we have all proved is wrong. If you Battle Focus out of LOS or range first, you get a shot at your second target.
Please remind me how you have proved it is not possible to target the first unit.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/13 14:10:41
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Tonberry7 wrote:Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.
You were?
Tonberry7 wrote:If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.
If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.
By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.
I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.
Your very first post in the thread discusses using BF first and then attempting to shoot. So no, you were not discussing shooting before BF all along.
rigeld2 wrote:Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/ LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.
This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/ LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.
I've underlined in the quote above where you claimed that. I'm not misrepresenting, you're misremembering your own argument.
Nope. I'm aware of the shooting sequence but you don't really seem to be making any point here. Are you claiming you can't shoot at any point in the shooting phase? Or still persisting with the claim that you can't shoot and then run using BF?
Your claim was that you cannot BF out of range and then shoot a secondary target (again, see the post above). You've cited nothing to prove that claim. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tonberry7 wrote:Please remind me how you have proved it is not possible to target the first unit.
Because you must have LoS and range to the first unit to be able to target it - as I've proven (since you haven't attempted to disprove it...).
Since the assumption is that the BF gets us out of range/ LoS, it's not possible to target the first unit and therefore you are permitted to target a second unit.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 14:11:58
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/13 19:30:41
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
|
rigeld2 wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.
You were?
Tonberry7 wrote:If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.
If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.
By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.
I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.
Your very first post in the thread discusses using BF first and then attempting to shoot. So no, you were not discussing shooting before BF all along.
I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.
rigeld2 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/ LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.
This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/ LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.
I've underlined in the quote above where you claimed that. I'm not misrepresenting, you're misremembering your own argument.
I remember perfectly well what my argument is. As discussed, the underlined does not say what you are claiming it to. So yes, you're either deliberately misrepresenting my argument or just haven't read it properly.
rigeld2 wrote:Nope. I'm aware of the shooting sequence but you don't really seem to be making any point here. Are you claiming you can't shoot at any point in the shooting phase? Or still persisting with the claim that you can't shoot and then run using BF?
Your claim was that you cannot BF out of range and then shoot a secondary target (again, see the post above). You've cited nothing to prove that claim.
I've cited the grenade pack rules. You've cited nothing to prove the hawks can ignore the restriction in the grenade pack rules.
rigeld2 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post: Tonberry7 wrote:Please remind me how you have proved it is not possible to target the first unit.
Because you must have LoS and range to the first unit to be able to target it - as I've proven (since you haven't attempted to disprove it...).
Since the assumption is that the BF gets us out of range/ LoS, it's not possible to target the first unit and therefore you are permitted to target a second unit.
I'm not attempting to disprove it because the assumption of my argument is actually that the hawks DS within range/ LoS of the first unit. Again you're misrepresenting me.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/13 19:42:59
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.
Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.
Legal or illegal?
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 00:31:26
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Screaming Shining Spear
|
rigeld2 wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.
Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.
Legal or illegal?
yes please answer this, and explain why.
|
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 01:20:16
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
Tonberry,
Phase... As in start of movement phase or start of shooting phase.
You know, the primary way that many Rules tell us to resolve them before we evoke / resolve other Rules....
|
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 07:33:56
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
|
rigeld2 wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.
Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.
Legal or illegal?
Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 07:50:04
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I don't get why this obnoxious behavior is tolerated.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 12:15:05
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Tonberry7 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.
Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.
Legal or illegal?
Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.
So what about
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Dark reapers fire upon the Tac squad and kill the whole unit.
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.
Legal or illegal?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 12:30:53
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Tonberry7 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:I'm glad that you've actually taken the time to read the thread. Unfortunately you're still getting it wrong. Where does my post discuss using BF first and then shooting? It doesn't. The part you've underlined is referring to a situation where the unit is in range and LoS before using BF. The key is in the past tense phrase "could have been targeted". If I was saying what you claim I would have used the phrase "could be targeted". So yes, I was discussing shooting before BF all along. I hope this clears things up for you.
Since I (and everyone else in the thread) are apparently so bad at understanding what you say, let's clear this up.
Hawks bomb a Marine Tac Squad and land (post scatter) 23" away from the Marine unit.
Hawks use Battle Focus to run out of range (and/or LoS - feel free to answer both scenarios).
Hawks then fire on the Centurions nearby.
Legal or illegal?
Illegal because it is possible for them to target the tac squad in the shooting phase. I'm assuming in your example that they DS in LoS of the tac squad.
Except that when they shoot, it's not possible to target the Tac squad. And before they shoot it's not possible to target the Tac squad because they can't attempt to target anything.
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 06:23:13
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
I'm in the camp that you still have to shoot at the unit that you dropped grenades on. If it just so happens that your weapons are out of range and thus unable to do anything that is strictly your fault for being out of range. Or in the case that you have Battle Focused your unit so that a vehicle is in the way you may discuss with your opponent that your shots are now resolved against the vehicle or that they straight up miss as the hawks try to curve their lasers around the vehicle.
If the enemy unit is killed by a different one of your units then by all means shoot at a different unit because you get to decide in which order your units shoot. If the game developers wanted you to decide what shoots at what all at once they would have made that rule.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 06:50:02
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Barrywise wrote:I'm in the camp that you still have to shoot at the unit that you dropped grenades on. If it just so happens that your weapons are out of range and thus unable to do anything that is strictly your fault for being out of range. Or in the case that you have Battle Focused your unit so that a vehicle is in the way you may discuss with your opponent that your shots are now resolved against the vehicle or that they straight up miss as the hawks try to curve their lasers around the vehicle.
If the enemy unit is killed by a different one of your units then by all means shoot at a different unit because you get to decide in which order your units shoot. If the game developers wanted you to decide what shoots at what all at once they would have made that rule.
So it is ok to choose to kill the grenade'ed squad with a different unit but not ok to choose to BF away to get out of LoS/Range. It's not like i get to choose the order in which I decide to run then shoot, oh wait yeah i do.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 10:15:05
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Barrywise wrote:I'm in the camp that you still have to shoot at the unit that you dropped grenades on. If it just so happens that your weapons are out of range and thus unable to do anything that is strictly your fault for being out of range. Or in the case that you have Battle Focused your unit so that a vehicle is in the way you may discuss with your opponent that your shots are now resolved against the vehicle or that they straight up miss as the hawks try to curve their lasers around the vehicle.
Surely you have some rules to cite to support your position?
It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?
If the enemy unit is killed by a different one of your units then by all means shoot at a different unit because you get to decide in which order your units shoot. If the game developers wanted you to decide what shoots at what all at once they would have made that rule.
How is this different from BFing out of range?
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 14:41:54
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Confessor Of Sins
|
rigeld2 wrote:It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?
I agree with your argument in this thread, but this is wrong.
If you BF out of range, the Grenade Pack rules allow you to target an alternative target, but it is possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range. A rather peculiar choice, but a legally valid one.
|
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 14:48:40
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
BlackTalos wrote:rigeld2 wrote:It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?
I agree with your argument in this thread, but this is wrong.
Shooting phase never restricts your targeting out of range.
Except it does. As I've proven in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to actually read all of my posts instead of jumping in at the end? But just for you...
Can you shoot at things that are out of range? No.
Can you choose to shoot at something out of range? No.
Can you decide to shoot at something that is out of range? No.
Since we know (from the above) that choosing a target is the same as deciding which one to shoot at, and you cannot decide to shoot at something out of range, you cannot choose a target that is out of range.
And please, if you still disagree, cite the rules in Grenade Pack that allow you to pick a new target if you're out of range.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 14:49:21
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 14:56:09
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Confessor Of Sins
|
rigeld2 wrote: BlackTalos wrote:rigeld2 wrote:It's demonstrably not possible to target the grenaded unit if you're out of range, correct? So how it the grenade rule limiting me?
I agree with your argument in this thread, but this is wrong.
Shooting phase never restricts your targeting out of range.
Except it does. As I've proven in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to actually read all of my posts instead of jumping in at the end? But just for you...
Can you shoot at things that are out of range? No.
Can you choose to shoot at something out of range? No.
Can you decide to shoot at something that is out of range? No.
Since we know (from the above) that choosing a target is the same as deciding which one to shoot at, and you cannot decide to shoot at something out of range, you cannot choose a target that is out of range.
And please, if you still disagree, cite the rules in Grenade Pack that allow you to pick a new target if you're out of range.
The rules were cited in the Spoiler: "Can still shoot: You can't shoot out of Range, so you get "if possible" => not possible and a new choice of target."
Which is the same wording as "choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at".
So indeed, in a roundabout way "cannot target out of range" from previous Editions still exists. (conceded)
|
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 15:16:41
Subject: Re:Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Guarding Guardian
USA
|
Tonberry7 wrote:
I've cited the grenade pack rules. You've cited nothing to prove the hawks can ignore the restriction in the grenade pack rules.
And I've already explained your argument is invalid. Maybe you are the one who should be told to read the thread posts, because you've obviously missed it.
You still seem to believe the "...if possible" means that IF you can make it so that the hawks can target the GP target during the shooting phase, you are obligated to do so. This is not true. As I, and numerous others have stated, the "...if possible" only triggers when the hawks are in the shooting phase, step 2. The GP rule does not obligate the hawk unit to move or perform in any way shape or form, other than in step 2 of the shooting phase, it checks a condition as per the GP rule. Oher than that it does nothing.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 15:32:23
~~~Eldar Trickery = Awesome sauce!~~~
But it's expensive sauce! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 16:02:55
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
Rigeld2, It is likely an over-sight in the move towards 'Weapon Groups,' someone likely moved the 'can not shoot at target' portion for Range down to that section without realizing that they created a broken formula in the Targeting Rules by doing so. This over-sight makes it entirely possible to Target a Unit that is out of Range of any Weapon, because checking for Range does not contain a clause which tells us what to do if in or out of Range.... So we check, check off the box that we checked, and move on regardless of the Results. What that fails to do is prove Tonberry7 correct though, as Range is irrelevant to his concept of 'must shoot first.'
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 16:03:50
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 16:05:47
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
JinxDragon wrote:Rigeld2,
It is likely an over-sight in the move towards 'Weapon Groups,' someone likely moved the 'can not shoot at target' portion for Range down to that section without realizing that they created a broken formula in the Targeting Rules by doing so. This over-sight makes it entirely possible to Target a Unit that is out of Range of any Weapon, because checking for Range does not contain a clause which tells us what to do if in or out of Range.... So we check, check off the box that we checked, and move on regardless of the Results.
So you disagree with how I spelled it out?
Please - address my argument and show where I'm wrong.
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 18:13:47
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
Allow me to review it when I am back at a book and can look over details more closely, but a quick preliminary of my thoughts: What prevents us from declaring a target that is out of Range as the Target after we complete the check the Range portion of the Quoted Rule, even if we determine that it is out-of-range? The Rule you quoted informs us how we go about declaring a target, but there is nothing within that prevents us from declaring a target to a Unit which is out side Range. There is specific instructions within the Line of Sight Rules which trigger when a Unit is outside this measurement, all designed to prevent the Unit from being a legal target, that clearly are missing from Range. The absence of this Rule makes it possible to state that we have 'checked Range as required' and are moving on to the declaring which Unit to Shoot at. There are a few Rules I need to review that might further support your argument though, so that is just preliminaries from what was posted in your quoted section.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 18:20:48
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 18:15:29
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
JinxDragon wrote:Allow me to review it when I am back at a book and can look over details more closely.
The problem still likely lies with the 'check line and range' portion, as it doesn't state what to do after we confirm the Unit is outside / inside range.
I quoted it literally word for word in the spoiler.
And it does. As I've explained. Please, pick apart what I've said.
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 18:34:43
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
Then please review my edited post as I have put more detail into the line of thought I was having but I have repeated it below in sorts: As mentioned, there are secondary Rules I will need to review which might further support your concept but the quoted Rule does not make 'out of Range' an issue. It requires us to measure a range, which is a physical act of determining how many Inches are between the two Models, and we can 'check' that off the list even without taking the number into account. This is because the quoted section completely fails to inform us what to do if the Range comes back as 'In' or if it comes back as 'out.' For Line-of-Sight this has been covered by instructions literally stating that the Unit can no longer be selected as a legal Target. It is entirely possible we check Range at that point for no reason more then to prevent ourselves from shameful situation of learning we don't actually have a Weapon that can reach the target and no longer have the ability to change this decision.... To further highlight the reasoning behind this line of thought, the Rule you quoted has the words To do so after telling us to choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. Therefore the following instructions are how we go about Choosing an Enemy Unit to shoot at, and your question of 'can we shoot at them' has been answered by 'Yes, if we follow these instructions. If there is no further requirement then to check Range we can meet that requirement by finding out the distance between the two Models. This could confirm they are outside Line of Range, but we have been granted Permission to still nominate them as the Unit we are going to be shooting at.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 18:41:11
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 18:37:57
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
JinxDragon wrote:The Rule you quoted informs us how we go about declaring a target, but there is nothing within that prevents us from declaring a target to a Unit which is out side Range.
I've addressed that.
Are you allowed to shoot at targets that are out of range?
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 18:43:21
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
As the Rule states To do so the answer is Yes.... These are instructions informing us how we go about choos(ing) a single enemy unit for them to shoot at so the word 'to do so' are in direct relation to the act of choosing. Therefore you will need to provide a requirement within those instructions that tells us we can not Nominate a Target that is outside of Range. If no such requirement exists, then Checking Range is simply done by putting down a ruler and stating 'done, I have measured Range and found it to be X inches.' Now it is far more likely that the requirement that all Weapons must be in Range before a Unit can be shot at will be located in a different Rule, the one for Line of Sight was, but the Rule you quoted does not support the conclusion you keep coming too if isolated to itself.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 18:50:22
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 18:50:31
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
No, it doesn't.
There is no rule telling you to shoot at a unit that is out of range. Indeed, it's impossible to do so and would be breaking a rule.
We are told to check the range, correct?
So if it's outside of your maximum range, you cannot shoot. Automatically Appended Next Post: JinxDragon wrote:As the Rule states To do so the answer is Yes....
These are instructions informing us how we go about choos(ing) a single enemy unit for them to shoot at so the word 'to do so' are in direct relation to the act of choosing. Therefore you will need to provide a requirement within those instructions that tells us we can not Nominate a Target that is outside of Range. If no such requirement exists, then Checking Range is simply done by putting down a ruler and stating 'done, I have measured Range and found it to be X inches.' Now it is far more likely that the requirement that all Weapons must be in Range before a Unit can be shot at will be located in a different Rule, the one for Line of Sight was, but the Rule you quoted does not support the conclusion you keep coming too if isolated to itself.
It's like you haven't read any of my posts.
Can you shoot at things that are out of range? No. (You dispute this. Cite rules.)
Can you choose to shoot at something out of range? No.
Can you decide to shoot at something that is out of range? No.
Since we know (from the above) that choosing a target is the same as deciding which one to shoot at, and you cannot decide to shoot at something out of range, you cannot choose a target that is out of range.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 18:51:32
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 19:00:41
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
Same Rule you quoted, I am just not ignoring these three words: To Do So So what does the 'to do so' part of these instructions tell us we are doing? If it is not choosing which Target we are going to shoot at, what is it telling us to do?
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 19:04:17
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 19:08:15
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
JinxDragon wrote:Same Rule you quoted, I am just not ignoring these three words:
To Do So
So you can shoot at things that are out of range. Despite the rules telling you otherwise. That's your actual stance?
So what does the 'to do so' part of these instructions tell us we are doing?
If it is not choosing which Target we are going to shoot at, what is it telling us to do?
Read the entire sentence, including "deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent". Your assertion is that you can declare a target that is out of range, and then go ahead and shoot at it?
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 19:22:10
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
|
The rest of the Shooting Sequence will at least be quick.... Let us break this quoted Rule down,shall we: Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, - Timing Restraint telling us when these instructions are followed choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. - What we do when the above Timing Restraint is met, if left there it would let us select any Unit to shoot at To do so - To do What if not detailing how we go about choosing an enemy? - Please do not ignore this part of the Rule, it is a joining term to link the instructions together.... you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting - A Requirement to physically check the Range of a Target, but one which fails to inform us what to do if we find the value is X or Y - those are addressed outside of this Rule Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units - Permission to do this multiple times before making a decision, in order to prevent us being in a 'can not target, can not re-measure' situation before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. - a Requirement to decide to shoot at just one Unit and inform our opponent which Unit that is You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat. - Restriction against targeting a Unit that is Locked in Combat So, please point out where in the Rule that you originally quoted as 'stand-alone-evidence' is the restriction stating that I can not declare a target if the Check Range instruction comes back as 'out of Range?'
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 19:36:35
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/16 19:59:28
Subject: Eldar Swooping Hawks Grenade Pack
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
JinxDragon wrote:The rest of the Shooting Sequence will at least be quick....
Let us break this quoted Rule down,shall we:
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, - Timing Restraint telling us when these instructions are followed
choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. - What we do when the above Timing Restraint is met, if left there it would let us select any Unit to shoot at
To do so - To do What if not detailing how we go about choosing an enemy? - Please do not ignore this part of the Rule, it is a joining term to link the instructions together....
you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting - A Requirement to physically check the Range of a Target, but one which fails to inform us what to do if we find the value is X or Y - those are addressed outside of this Rule
Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units - Permission to do this multiple times before making a decision, in order to prevent us being in a 'can not target, can not re-measure' situation
before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. - a Requirement to decide to shoot at just one Unit and inform our opponent which Unit that is
You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat. - Restriction against targeting a Unit that is Locked in Combat
So, please point out where in the Rule that you originally quoted as 'stand-alone-evidence' is the restriction stating that I can not declare a target if the Check Range instruction comes back as 'out of Range?'
I've underlined the two clauses. To be able to declare you're doing something you must actually be able to do it. If you cannot shoot at something, you cannot declare that you're going to shoot at that thing to your opponent.
I'm not ignoring "To do so". At all. One of the things "To do so" requires you to do is declare your choice of what you're going to shoot at. According to your argument, you can do this by declaring that you're going to shoot at a unit that is out of range - which is impossible.
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
|