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 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll wait - because your entire argument requires the ability to target a unit you cannot see nor shoot.

You've clearly misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument then. I was merely indulging your attempt to sidetrack the discussion by implying that you can't target a unit after BFing out of range. Which has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For your benefit, I'm saying that when the hawks arrive by DS, if they are positioned with LoS to the grenade pack unit it is possible for them to target the same unit in the shooting phase. The grenade pack rules explicitly require them to do so in this instance.

And the actual rules don't agree with that statement. As I've shown - by quoting rules. Perhaps you'd indulge me by doing the same?

Apologies, I must have missed your quotes proving this. All I've really seen are some tenuous interpretations. I've already quoted the relevant rules to support my argument and explained my reasoning. If you disagree that's OK but I get the feeling we're going round in circles here.

Cite the rule that says you're allowed to target something you cannot shoot.
I've demonstrated the opposite. You also alleged an illogical statement - please, cite the statement.
Prove your point - you've cited literally zero rules related to targeting.

I've cited all the relevant rules, just read the thread please. Also your last post has no merit or relevance, you're again just trying to obscure the issue. I think it's reasonably clear that you can target a unit that you can shoot.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I've cited all the relevant rules, just read the thread please. Also your last post has no merit or relevance, you're again just trying to obscure the issue. I think it's reasonably clear that you can target a unit that you can shoot.

It's absolutely clear that you can target a unit you can shoot.

You've cited literally no rules showing you can target a unit you cannot shoot.
I've made my assertions. Please disprove them instead of saying "you're wrong".

Seriously, if you want to continue discussing a separate issue perhaps you should make a new thread.

Otherwise, please demonstrate some proof that it's not possible to target the same unit in the shooting phase.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Seriously, if you want to continue discussing a separate issue perhaps you should make a new thread.

Otherwise, please demonstrate some proof that it's not possible to target the same unit in the shooting phase.

I have. You've failed to attempt to disprove me other than just saying I'm wrong.

Please follow the tenets of the sub forum. This isn't a separate issue - it's directly related to your assertion.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to report my posts. I've done nothing wrong.

Tonberry7,
When another poster requests the Rules be quoted it is not because they want you to repeat yourself, it is because they have no recollection of you actually doing so. Simply stating 'I already posted them' does not fix the problem as you are now requiring them to do something you know no one has the time or patience to do. It is a statement that literally forces them to look back through post after post, sometimes in other threads, simply to find an answer that you could have so must more easily simply stated once more in the post you had just made. Failure to do so makes everyone else assume that you are simply covering up your mistake, weakening your argument even further, because other readers are never going to put the time into finding a quote by you either.

Therefore the correct answer to such a request is to post the Rule that has been requested, restate your argument once more if you do feel the need to explain the Rule, and wait to see what their response will be.

You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

You also clearly think your other claims are relevant so we're in disagreement over that as well. I'm not sure why you think I would report you though.

@ jinxdragon. Thanks for the instruction. I do think you should be including Rigeld2 in your lecture though. Admittedly it does get tiresome repeating arguments time and time again.

Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

You also clearly think your other claims are relevant so we're in disagreement over that as well. I'm not sure why you think I would report you though.

I've shown how they're relevant. If you think I'm pulling this thread off topic, report the post.

@ jinxdragon. Thanks for the instruction. I do think you should be including Rigeld2 in your lecture though. Admittedly it does get tiresome repeating arguments time and time again.

I've cited rules and defended my argument. All you've done to defend yours is "Nuh uh".

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

That has become the entire issue here, JinxDragon and rigeld2, so I wonder if this thread needs locked. Most of the thread has been a mountain of RaW + discussion as to why it works as everyone knows it does, while one certain individual has been ... sharing .... their opinion repeatedly, w/o rules support (that hasn't been proven wrong), and nothing but a circular argument to support their claims. It has not contributed anything to this thread, which has run it's course a long time ago.
This is about the thousandth time* someone has come to the same conclusion as you JinxDragon, and asked Ton to provide proof. And it is the thousandth time** Ton has been unable or unwilling to do anything other than argue and deflect.

Please, can we drop it? It won't do any good.

*"slightly" exaggerating.
**Still exaggerating!

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

I see. So if you agree with someone they don't have to repeat themselves every time, but if you disagree they do?
As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

@rookshunter - did you have anything to contribute other than more disparaging remarks?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
I would, if it wasn't for the fact Rules supporting Rigeld2's point have been heavily referenced and discussed:
Targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence itself, Step 2, and it does have an interesting loophole that allows the Grenade Pack Rule to force targeting even if the Unit is out of Range but not if the Unit is Out of Sight when it comes time to Resolve this step.

If you believe otherwise, post the Rule which states Targeting occurs prior to this point.

I see. So if you agree with someone they don't have to repeat themselves every time, but if you disagree they do?
As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

@rookshunter - did you have anything to contribute other than more disparaging remarks?

As rookshunter said, please post the RaW that supports (very precisely) that Unit targeting is "before they BF" and " targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase"

Because that is simply wrong, per RaW targeting a Unit is part of the Shooting Sequence, Step 2. That is the ONLY RaW timing when you can invoke targeting.

Rulebook wrote:"2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see."

Look, i have supported my claim with some RaW. I know Rigeld doesn't always support his arguments every post, and neither do I. But when it is asked for in order to resolve an argument, I usually provide and so does Jinx.
Now please support your assertions with the RaW that covers " targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase".

I think the thing people are missing is the lack of the phrase "At the start of the shooting phase"
It does say "in the shooting phase", so RAW, it could be after you use battle focus to go around a corner.

Tonberry7,
My point was that I have, personally, seen the Rules which they have posted and seen all the discussion surrounding those Rules so directing such a statement to them would be illogical and dishonest. Not only have they posted why your conclusions are incorrect and even pointed out what the Rules actually state, repetitively I might add, but they have not ignored repeat requests to post the Rules which support their arguments. Should I request them to post those Rules again, I am sure the response back would be 'sure, here is the Rule' and not something along the lines of 'read the previous threads.' If their response back was anything other then that, then I will be more then willing to direct such a statement towards them.

So lets do an experiment:
Tonberry7, please post the Rules which support your position
Rest of board, please post the Rules which support your position
- Hint, I would start by posting Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence and when the timing leading up to how the Sequence is evoked.

The core problem Jinx, is that unlike 6th, there is no caveat that states that a "new target must be chosen" for models being out of range. 6th had that for both LOS and Range, however 7th only requires a new target to get chosen if there is no LOS. Choosing a model as a target of your shooting attack and not having any weapons to shoot appears to be perfectly legit in 7th. Other than this type of odd situation, it functions almost no different than 6th.

Fragile,
That was discussed and even I have flagged as an interesting twist in the current edition, but it is actually irrelevant to the core of the discussion outside of an interesting side note. It is still entirely possible for the Unit to evoke the Special Rule, move out of Line of Sight, and then be in the exact same situation. So while that twist in the current edition might be interesting it does not support Tonberry7's argument that the Unit must carry out it's targeting, before it makes use of it's Special Rule, and that it can not change that target once it has been proven to be invalid as per Step 2.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Why are you picking the start of the shooting phase for the if possible?
Why not say that you must deep strike closer to begin with, so that you're not eliminating possible shots?

I think you either need to:
1) Deep strike so that all your hawks are within range and line of sight of the the entire enemy unit, so you will always have the option to shoot them
Or
2) Check to see if your are in range and line of sight when you reach the choosing a target step.

If you're saying you can't battle focus away, then you must battle focus closer, then you must deep strike closer. As they are all "possible", and all choices you make before you choose to fire.

I don't have access to my book at the moment, but I am pretty sure that Range is defined as the maximum range that the weapon can be shot at and is covered in the weapons section. So being out of the maximum range of all of your weapons would prevent the hawks from declaring the other unit as a target.

Also, in the shooting phase it states to check Range and LoS, why are you checking range if it has no bearing on target selection?


I also still have seen nothing to indicate that target selection / determination of possible targets occurs at any time before you have declared you are shooting with the unit. Since with the Battle Focus special rule, you can either run and then shoot or shoot then run, but you only declare one action at a time, and the other action must be declared before another unit takes action. So in the case of running away from the initial grenade pack target, you would not check range or line of sight for purposes of target selection until after the run move was made.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Why are you picking the start of the shooting phase for the if possible?
Why not say that you must deep strike closer to begin with, so that you're not eliminating possible shots?

I think you either need to:
1) Deep strike so that all your hawks are within range and line of sight of the the entire enemy unit, so you will always have the option to shoot them
Or
2) Check to see if your are in range and line of sight when you reach the choosing a target step.

If you're saying you can't battle focus away, then you must battle focus closer, then you must deep strike closer. As they are all "possible", and all choices you make before you choose to fire.

Well put. I'll +1 that with a "It was possible for you to roll Gate of Infinity and have a jetbike seer zip over there too" to the list of obnoxious interpretations of "possible".

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

...

JinxDragon wrote:

...
So lets do an experiment:
Tonberry7, please post the Rules which support your position
Rest of board, please post the Rules which support your position
- Hint, I would start by posting Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence and when the timing leading up to how the Sequence is evoked.

Sure, im game! Just give me a few hours, im on the road, 6 hr drive visiting relatives. After dinner, ill break out the laptop and do a big ol' rules heavy post on exactly how it works.
Itll be a repeat of a lot of whats been posted already, but itll be fun.

I'm moving right now - don't really have the ability to do all my quotes. I'll refer to my previous posts (sorry).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

It's relevant because a) using BF is optional while ignoring the restriction to must target the same unit is not, and b) had you actually read the BF rules you'd have noticed that you can also shoot before running, and not just run then shoot as you are claiming (with no rules citations, I might add).

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

How about this one: "During the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy."

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

It's relevant because a) using BF is optional while ignoring the restriction to must target the same unit is not, and b) had you actually read the BF rules you'd have noticed that you can also shoot before running, and not just run then shoot as you are claiming (with no rules citations, I might add).

No one is discussing shooting before they BF, so the comment wasn't relevant to the discussion. Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

How about this one: "During the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy."

Nope. Still doesn't support it. You can fire, but there's rules that you follow to fire. It's called the shooting sequence - something that you can't just do willy-nilly, but only when you do a shooting attack (which, for this discussion, is after the unit runs out of range/LoS).

We ended up driving two days, (18 hours) w/o reliable Internet, and I wasn't about to do this on my phone, so had to wait until we got to the hotel.

Let me first say, I apologize for this wall of text. I believe I've only presented here the information needed to articulate my point, and provide rules support to back it up.
Oh, and last time I did a text wall, several people replied that I was wrong, but they misquoted/misunderstood/didn't read it. When you reply, please make sure you read the part you comment on (in context too please).

Ok? We're all set. Hold on to your butts! We're going for a ride:

Grenade pack (Codex: Eldar p.66)
Any time a unit with a grenade pack enters play by Deep Strike and does not suffer a Deep Strike mishap, nominate one model in the unit immediately after it arrives. That model can make a single special shooting attack in the Movement phase with the profile below - this represents the unit’s grenade pack attack.
A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must target the same target unit if possible.

Note four things with this rule:
1, the unit retains the ability to shoot in the shooting phase, although it is not required to.
2, it does not create a special rule where targets are checked at any time other than what you'd normally do in the shooting phase, so the shooting phase rules take precedence. To this effect, GP also does not make any claims against Battle Focus, forcing the unit to or not to use it, or to do either running or shooting in any particular order. It also does not say the unit cannot run if they so choose to do that either.
3, realize the “...if possible.” part of GP only triggers when you actually go to target something, it is not conferring a “super magical” special rule regarding targeting that forces all of your actions from this point on to make sure the Hawk unit is able to target the same unit when the time comes in the shooting phase.
4, it must target the same unit targeted with the grenade pack if possible. Again, this has not created any special rule on when/how to target, just that when it targets in the shooting phase, it must target the same unit if possible. Therefore, we follow the normal rules in the BRB for when and how we target a unit.

Now lets check BF:

Battle Focus (Codex: Eldar p.25)
A unit that contains only models with the Battle Focus special rule can either shoot and then Run, or Run and then shoot, in the same Shooting phase. The unit must complete both actions before you move onto the next unit – otherwise the chance to make the second action is forfeit.
A model cannot Run if it fired a Heavy weapon during the same Shooting phase unless it has the Relentless special rule. Similarly, a model that has Run cannot then fire a Heavy weapon in the same Shooting phase unless it has the Relentless special rule. Models that cannot Run gain no benefit from the Battle Focus special rule.

Note three things with this rule:
1, Units with BF do not have to use it. If they do, they do each complete action, in the order they choose. There is no special rules added other than it can do both run and shoot actions during the Shooting phase in whatever order chosen, compared to a normal unit w/o BF who can only do one or the other.
2, Again, there is no special rules for targeting mentioned or added by this rule.
Now pay attention, this is the important part.
3, Because neither the Grenade pack or BF rules add any special rules or instructions to modify or change how to handle how targeting is done (other than having to target the original target unit of the GP if possible), then we must use the targeting rules as presented in the BRB. The BRB's targeting rules are handled in The Shooting Phase.

Here is the start of the shooting phase:

THE SHOOTING PHASE (The Rules, aka BRB p.30-31 ← someone double check me on these pages please.)
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer
40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting
phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order
for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is
explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting
sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have
completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack,
carry on to the Assault phase.

Remember, these opening two paragraphs are little more than literary rules explaining that you will use the following steps as the actual rules you follow to complete the shooting process. As you can plainly see, no where in these paragraphs are you instructed to check or measure any targets.
Therefore, targeting is handled during the shooting phase sequence as mentioned above. Lets take a look at the Sequence now:

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.

Ok so far, we already know we're dealing with our Hawks, so we can nominate them for the first step.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
…

Hot dog! Right there as the second step is “Choose a Target.” By looking further in the detail of that second step we see this:

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy
unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from
your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line
of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to
your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
Line of Sight
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model
in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.

For now, this is more than enough from that section to complete the analysis. As you can see, in order to target a unit, you must check the range and los. You will have these restrictions:
-You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
-At least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit.

There is also stuff about selecting a weapon which kinda seems is under debate (if the unit is out of range is it still target-able), but for our purposes, and this example, it does not matter either way. (if you don't have los to a unit, it is not possible to target that unit)

All said and done right? OH, wait.... What about BF?
Well, lets look at one more rule:

RUN (The Rules, aka BRB p.31 ← someone double check me on the page please.)
At times, warriors may have to redeploy quickly, literally running from cover to cover or
simply concentrating on movement and giving up their chance to shoot. In their Shooting
phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing. Roll a D6 to determine the maximum
Run distance for the entire unit. Models in the unit may then immediately move up to
that distance in inches. They may choose not to move after the roll is made, but still count
as having Run.

In order for a unit to run, it must decline to shoot, therefore running preempts the shooting sequence altogether. To put it another way, the shooting sequence is forgone altogether for the sake of running, so when a unit runs, there has been no targeting in the shooting phase. If it was a normal run, there would then never be any targeting done in that shooting phase for that unit.

On the other hand, If our Hawk unit decides to BF, and chooses to run first, it is totally allowed to do so. Not only that, but it can run to where it is out of los of the GP target, so when it then chooses to shoot as the second part of BF, as it is unable to target that unit per GP's request, it can therefore elect to target a different unit, as the OP originally suggested.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
You may think you have, but unfortunately this is not so. The RAW were quoted in the OP and subsequently re quoted at your request with an explanation of my argument. To suggest I'm merely stating that you're wrong is amusing. You've failed to show how the hawks can ignore the restrictions if they DS within range and LoS.

If possible, they must target the grenaded unit.
If they BF out of range/LoS, is it possible to target the grenades unit?

Yes before they BF. Remember BF moves are done in the shooting phase.

Relevancy? You cannot target before BF as you can only declare a target when making a shooting attack. Since that is done after BF your statement has no actual basis in rules, unless you'd like to (finally) cite a rule showing that the ability to target prior to BF is relevant.

It's relevant because a) using BF is optional while ignoring the restriction to must target the same unit is not, and b) had you actually read the BF rules you'd have noticed that you can also shoot before running, and not just run then shoot as you are claiming (with no rules citations, I might add).

No one is discussing shooting before they BF, so the comment wasn't relevant to the discussion.

Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your claim is that if it's possible to target before they BF, and they do so out of range/LoS, they are still bound by the restriction - and you've cited no rules support.
BF being optional isn't relevant at all.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the rules, targeting can occur at any point in the shooting phase. I was previously criticised for referring to specific points in time.

Cite your claim. None of the rules quoted so far support this statement.

How about this one: "During the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy."

Nope. Still doesn't support it. You can fire, but there's rules that you follow to fire. It's called the shooting sequence - something that you can't just do willy-nilly, but only when you do a shooting attack (which, for this discussion, is after the unit runs out of range/LoS).

Nope. I'm aware of the shooting sequence but you don't really seem to be making any point here. Are you claiming you can't shoot at any point in the shooting phase? Or still persisting with the claim that you can't shoot and then run using BF?

Tonberry7,
You have still failed to quote a rule that requires us to begin targeting BEFORE battle focus. Please find and quote it. This si the only thing that could validate your argument.

Tonberry7,
While it is irrelevant to what your opponents are actually saying, their point has always been that one does not officially Target till resolving Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence, I want to point out that one of your straw-man is not actually incorrect:
One can not simply shoot at any point during the Shooting Phase.

The Phases themselves have a block of time called 'The Start' and 'The End' which are dedicated to Rules that must be resolved on these two points in the time line. The existence of Rules which have this priority is actually what prevents us from evoking the Shooting Sequence 'at any time.' As the Shooting Sequence does not have any dedicated Timings involved, it can only be resolved in the 'middle' of the Phase after all the 'Start of the Shooting Phase' Rule have been resolved. Should there be no Rules that use specific timing, we start resolving all the remaining Rules as per these instructions:
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

As the Shooting Sequence triggers at no specific time it can only be resolved once no more 'start of phase' Rules remain.
When the player whose turn it is decides to Resolve it

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Actually, I've been discussing shooting before BF all along so it is entirely relevant. Did you even read the thread? You're just ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

This is not my claim at all. I am discussing when they are in range/LOS. Again you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument to try and disprove it; I've noticed you do that a lot.

I think this decides it.

Of course we all agree that if you shoot first, and BF second and you are in LOS/range to the Unit you used Grenade pack on, you Must target them....

When did we ever state that was wrong?

Of course, this is irrelevant to the OP's question: "If target is not out of sight, battle focus out of range. Proceed to shoot secondary target."
And in such a case (BF first, followed by shooting) your initial position:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Which we have all proved is wrong. If you Battle Focus out of LOS or range first, you get a shot at your second target.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tonberry7,
While it is irrelevant to what your opponents are actually saying, their point has always been that one does not officially Target till resolving Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence, I want to point out that one of your straw-man is not actually incorrect:
One can not simply shoot at any point during the Shooting Phase.

The Phases themselves have a block of time called 'The Start' and 'The End' which are dedicated to Rules that must be resolved on these two points in the time line. The existence of Rules which have this priority is actually what prevents us from evoking the Shooting Sequence 'at any time.' As the Shooting Sequence does not have any dedicated Timings involved, it can only be resolved in the 'middle' of the Phase after all the 'Start of the Shooting Phase' Rule have been resolved. Should there be no Rules that use specific timing, we start resolving all the remaining Rules as per these instructions:
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

As the Shooting Sequence triggers at no specific time it can only be resolved once no more 'start of phase' Rules remain.
When the player whose turn it is decides to Resolve it

I'm sorry. I thought the shooting phase started following the conclusion of the psychic phase. Which start of phase rules are you referring to exactly?