Ive been playing it as 2 Primis and the one roll. Hasn't made a difference as most daemon armies are burning dice trying to get off invisibility from Smel'A'Kor, and various other spells instead of flickering fire.
Da boyz GT ruled it the other way where its just the Tzeentch Primis and the one roll. Didn't really matter, daemon players just summoned more units to get the other powers. My buddy would just go for cursed earth or the herald summoning one, it being WC 1 is bananas considering you get a ML2 psyker for free, who gets 2 more rolls on Malefic.
blaktoof wrote: regular focus disappears when you -generate- a power from another discipline.
a generated power requires you to roll for it.
chaos focus is not a generated power.
it doesn't say when you generate. It says when you gain a power (which you do through Chaos Focus). The Marks of "x" care if you generate.
Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins.
you generate powers before the game begins.
To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline;
you roll to generate powers
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus,
If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus
chaos focus is not a generated power, and is not "gained" during the course of the game, it is gained before the game.
CrownAxe wrote: Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline
Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.
Incorrect.
Regular Focus disappears when you gain a power from another discipline during the game.
"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic Focus rules).
Psychic Focus is not generated and not gained during the game, so the pink horrors will have both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus.
CrownAxe wrote: Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline
Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.
Incorrect.
Regular Focus disappears when you gain a power from another discipline during the game.
(If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic Focus rules).
Psychic Focus is not generated and not gained during the game, so the pink horrors will have both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus.
This entirely depends on what your definition of "during the game" means.
CrownAxe wrote: Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline
Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.
Incorrect.
Regular Focus disappears when you gain a power from another discipline during the game.
(If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic Focus rules).
Psychic Focus is not generated and not gained during the game, so the pink horrors will have both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus.
This entirely depends on what your definition of "during the game" means.
not really.
as one happens before the game.- generating psychic powers gaining psychic powers form focus, force, etc.
during the game is certainly not before the game.
There are ways to gain psychic powers during the game such as scrolls of magnus.
I brought this up when 7th was released and was dismissed out of hand.
xera32 wrote: The first time i read this it made sense to me until other people started saying it didn't work that way. So I would be grateful of some clarification on how people came to their conclusions.
"Psychic Focus
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."
Ok so if you generate all your powers from 1 discipline you get the primaris for free.
"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power) ."
If you gain a power during the game you lose the primaris and do so before the game. So far so good.
"Generating Psychic Powers
Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. ... Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him. ... To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 ... If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat"
So a psyker only generates powers by rolling for them.
So where is the restriction removing psychic focus when you gain chaos psychic focus? if you generated all your powers (rolling) on one discipline you gain psychic focus. You gain chaos psychic focus automatically and not through generation. And you don't gain it during the game ("that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity").
there is no RAW support that chaos focus removes psychic focus in of itself, without omitting rules which in this case would be "powers are generated before the game begins" and "powers gained during the game cause the loss of psychic focus"
chaos focus is not generated, and is granted before the game begins, just like psychic focus, and force.
In fact if you read the example for generating psychic powers they check to see if the model is granted chaos focus before it generates powers or checks to see if it has psychic focus from generating powers.
xera32 wrote: I brought this up when 7th was released and was dismissed out of hand.
xera32 wrote: The first time i read this it made sense to me until other people started saying it didn't work that way. So I would be grateful of some clarification on how people came to their conclusions.
"Psychic Focus
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."
Ok so if you generate all your powers from 1 discipline you get the primaris for free.
"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power) ."
If you gain a power during the game you lose the primaris and do so before the game. So far so good.
"Generating Psychic Powers
Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. ... Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him. ... To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 ... If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat"
So a psyker only generates powers by rolling for them.
So where is the restriction removing psychic focus when you gain chaos psychic focus? if you generated all your powers (rolling) on one discipline you gain psychic focus. You gain chaos psychic focus automatically and not through generation. And you don't gain it during the game ("that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity").
But you did not generate all your powers rolling on one discipline. You have at least one power (Flickering Fire) that was not generated. Since you did not generate all of your powers, you did not generate all of your powers from the same discipline. Therefore you do not gain Psychic Focus.
Now if the rule had read:
If all the powers generated by the Psyker are from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.
Then you would be correct.
Now if you want to argue that Chaos Psychic Focus is granted after Psychic Focus is granted but before the game begins then that's a different matter. However, given the fact that in the rulebook example Chaos Psychic Focus eligibility is checked before rolling for powers, I think this might be a tough case to make.
xera32 wrote: Read up how you generate psychic powers, it is quite clear in my post and the rulebook. You can only generate powers by rolling for them.
Read my post again. I did not claim Flickering Fire is a generated power. To qualify for Psychic Focus you must generate all your powers from the same discipline. Not just all your generated powers. All your powers. Period. This is a subtle but important difference. To satisfy the criterion the following conditions must be met. Every power* must be:
1) generated
2) not generated from a different discipline as the psyker's other powers.
For example, take a unit of Pink Horrors. They get Flickering Fire due to Chaos Psychic Focus. They choose to generate a power from Malefic and roll Incursion. Do they get Psychic Focus? Well, what powers do they have? Flickering Fire and Incursion. Were all of their powers generated from a single discipline? No - Flickering Fire was not generated so it doesn't satisfy condition 1) above. They have at least one power that does not satisfy the criterion. Therefore not all of their powers satisfy the criterion. They do not gain Psychic Focus.
* There is an explicit exception to the above - if a power does not belong to any discipline it is disregarded entirely. Mind Worm and Force fall under this exception.
The point being that you did generate all your powers from one discipline, as the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is never generated.
So you still have abided by the rule about generating all of your powers from a single discipline.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: For example, take a unit of Pink Horrors. They get Flickering Fire due to Chaos Psychic Focus. They choose to generate a power from Malefic and roll Incursion. Do they get Psychic Focus?
Yes they do, as Flickering Fire is not generated, they have generated all of their powers from demonology (Malefic).
DeathReaper wrote: The point being that you did generate all your powers from one discipline, as the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is never generated.
So you still have abided by the rule about generating all of your powers from a single discipline.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: For example, take a unit of Pink Horrors. They get Flickering Fire due to Chaos Psychic Focus. They choose to generate a power from Malefic and roll Incursion. Do they get Psychic Focus?
Yes they do, as Flickering Fire is not generated, they have generated all of their powers from demonology (Malefic).
How have they generated all their powers from Malefic? Make a list of all their powers:
1. Incursion - generated from Malefic.
2. Flickering Fire - not generated.
Have they generated all their powers from Malefic? No - they have at least one power that was not generated. Therefore they don't get Psychic Focus.
The problem is you are misreading the rule. You are putting an implied "generated" in the following:
If a Psyker generates all of his [generated] powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.
But that's not what the rule says. It doesn't matter if all the powers he generates are from the same discipline. To fulfill the condition all his powers must be 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. The Horrors fail 1) due to Flickering Fire and therefore don't gain Psychic Focus.
But they have generated all of their powers from Malefic
Because you do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus
For them to be eligible for Psychic Focus, they need to have generated all their powers from the same psychic discipline.
If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.
Luckily the Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus rule are only concerned with the generated powers and not Force or powers that are not generated.
DeathReaper wrote: But they have generated all of their powers from Malefic
No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.
The 2 statements below mean 2 different things:
1) I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
2) All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.
You must satisfy 1) to gain Psychic Focus. Horrors satisfy 2).
If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.
False. There is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline:
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Were it not for the above exception, psykers with a Force weapon would be ineligible for Psychic Focus due to the fact that they have a power that was not generated.
If it state the psyker only knows powers generated from one discipline I would agree with you.
but as the qualifer is that the psyker generates only powers from one discipline then it qualifies it by saying that non generated powers do not count, otherwise force would always negate psychic focus.
blaktoof wrote: If it state the psyker only knows powers generated from one discipline I would agree with you.
Then you agree with me, because that's what the rule states. All the powers that the psyker knows must be 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline.
but as the qualifer is that the psyker generates only powers from one discipline then it qualifies it by saying that non generated powers do not count, otherwise force would always negate psychic focus.
That's not what the rule says. The restriction is not on what powers the psyker generates. It's on all the powers the psyker knows. All the powers must be 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. And the reason why Force does not negate Psychic Focus is because it does not belong to a discipline and there is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline. On the other hand, the primaris powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus all belong to a discipline.
If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.
That is a good point. Would the people arguing for 2 powers for horrors, rather than 3, agree that librarians with force weapons can never claim psychic focus?
If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.
That is a good point. Would the people arguing for 2 powers for horrors, rather than 3, agree that librarians with force weapons can never claim psychic focus?
Except the rule specifically stating the opposite.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.
This would be accurate is chaos psychic focus was generated which it is not.
there is only 1 way to generate powers, and that is by following the rules in the sub-section Generating Psychic Powers
This is a complete breakdown of all the rules.
Mastery Levels "the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers
equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated,
as described below."
You generate a number of powers equal to mastery level. Note the word generate, if focuses were generated, they would count as 1 of the mastery level powers.
Generating Psychic Powers In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific
psychic powers listed - where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These
Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a
Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic
disciplines known to him.
You generate powers by either having them specifically listed in the entry (e.g. mind worm), or generate randomly by rolling. Now I know you are going to say chaos focus is a "specific psychic power" but it is not. It is not clearly stated, and it is not listed in the unit entry. An example of a specific power would be things like the hemlock wraith fighter, Draigo, harlequins, or broodlords.
Generating Psychic Powers "If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above
process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."
You keep generating until you have generated as many powers as your mastery level. This means the only generated powers are ones that are done by the methods listed under the Generating Psychic Powers section.
Chaos Psychic Focus "If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular
Chaos God (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos
Daemons), that model automatically knows the primaris power of
the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition
to any other powers it knows."
My emphasis on the bolded portion. Chaos psychic focus is known, it is not generated. It doesn't follow anything under the generation section.
Psychic Focus "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic
discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker
is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's
primaris power in addition to his other powers.
Straight forward.
If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a
different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus
(and the associated primaris power)."
My emphasis on the bolded portion. Before the game is not during the game. Therefore the knowledge of powers that are not part of the disciple does not affect focus unless you gain them during the game.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.
This would be accurate is chaos psychic focus was generated which it is not.
Where have I ever claimed that powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are generated? They are not generated. That is why they prevent Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus requires that all the psyker's powers be both 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus do not satisfy 1). I don't know how to make this any clearer.
Before going any further you need to read the 2 statements below and figure out the difference in meaning between them:
Statement 1: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement 2: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.
If you can't see the difference in meaning between the 2 statements above then there is no sense in continuing.
The Psychic Focus rule requires Statement 1 to be satisfied. You have misinterpreted this rule to have the meaning of Statement 2. But I would hope that by looking at the actual wording of the rule it would be clear that it directly corresponds to Statement 1 and not Statement 2.
Please take the time to read and understand my arguments before you reply.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.
This would be accurate is chaos psychic focus was generated which it is not.
Where have I ever claimed that powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are generated? They are not generated. That is why they prevent Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus requires that all the psyker's powers be both 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus do not satisfy 1). I don't know how to make this any clearer.
Before going any further you need to read the 2 statements below and figure out the difference in meaning between them:
Statement 1: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement 2: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.
If you can't see the difference in meaning between the 2 statements above then there is no sense in continuing.
The Psychic Focus rule requires Statement 1 to be satisfied. You have misinterpreted this rule to have the meaning of Statement 2. But I would hope that by looking at the actual wording of the rule it would be clear that it directly corresponds to Statement 1 and not Statement 2.
Please take the time to read and understand my arguments before you reply.
what you are saying is correct, if you are going by what you state.
but what you state are not the actual rules, which is why it is incorrect.
psychic focus is granted if all of your other generated powers are from the same discipline.
psychic focus is lost if you gain a power during the course of the game.
as powers are generated before the game begins, along with the granting of psychic focus and chaos focus, they are not gained during the course of the game. Chaos focus is not a generated power, but is a power gained before the game begins, not during the course of the game which is the qualifier for losing psychic focus.
as such you can RAW have chaos focus and psychic focus under certain circumstances.
blaktoof wrote: psychic focus is granted if all of your other generated powers are from the same discipline.
This is not what the rule says.
To help you identify where your error in logic is occurring I've created a homework assignment for you.
YMDC 101
Professor Abadabadoobaddon
Problem Set 1
The following questions refer to the 2 statements below.
Statement A: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement B: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.
Question 1 What is the difference between Statement A and Statement B? Give an example of a situation where Statement B is true but Statement A is false.
Question 2 Consider the following rule:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.
Does the wording of the conditional clause in the first part of the rule more closely resemble Statement A or Statement B?
Question 3 Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are not generated. According to the rule in Question 2, has a Psyker with a primaris power granted by Chaos Psychic Focus generated all of his powers from the same discipline?
I will be available during my regular office hours if you need extra help completing the assignment.
blaktoof wrote: psychic focus is granted if all of your other generated powers are from the same discipline.
This is not what the rule says.
To help you identify where your error in logic is occurring I've created a homework assignment for you.
YMDC 101
Professor Abadabadoobaddon
Problem Set 1
The following questions refer to the 2 statements below.
Statement A: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement B: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.
Question 1 What is the difference between Statement A and Statement B? Give an example of a situation where Statement B is true but Statement A is false.
Question 2 Consider the following rule:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.
Does the wording of the conditional clause in the first part of the rule more closely resemble Statement A or Statement B?
Question 3 Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are not generated. According to the rule in Question 2, has a Psyker with a primaris power granted by Chaos Psychic Focus generated all of his powers from the same discipline?
The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
And to generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).
So there are two ways to generate a power. granted powers, like the one from Chaos Psychic Focus, are not generated and as such you can still gain Psychic Focus, because you have generated all of your powers from the same discipline.
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
So then a model with a Force weapon can never benefit from Psychic Focus?
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
So then a model with a Force weapon can never benefit from Psychic Focus?
There is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline.
Statement A: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Bravo for your efforts.
To the other side of the argument, the important part to review is in blue below. ALL powers were not generated from the same psychic discipline. And stop mentioning Force as it has a clearly written exception right below the rule.
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.
A fun comparison:
If a Psyker eats all of his blueberries from one bucket, he can have the cherry.
If he eats a blueberry from a second bucket, all of his blueberries did not come from one bucket. If he acquires a blueberry from a second bucket, he did not eat all of his blueberries. If the Psyker eats or acquires a blueberry from a second bucket, he does not get the cherry.
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
It is supported if you do not ignore the context.
"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule is discussing only the powers that a psyker can generate (As per the generating Psychic Powers rules which includes rolling on the discipline), it is not concerned with non generated powers.
Farseer Pef do not ignore the context of the rule. The rule is specifically talking about the powers that are randomly generated. not any other powers.\
Basically you have to ask how many powers can the psyker generate, then compare that with the number of powers that come from a single discipline. If they match the psyker gains Psychic Focus.
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
It is supported if you do not ignore the context.
"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule is discussing only the powers that a psyker can generate (As per the genearting Psychic Powers rules which includes rolling on the discipline), it is not concerned with non generated powers.
The rule in question is not discussing only powers the psyker can generate - it is discussing what condition must be met in order for a psyker to be granted a free non-generated power. In order to do so the psyker must generate "all of his powers" and they must be "from the same discipline". It doesn't say "all of his generated powers" - it says "all of his powers" period. It's spelled out in clear English. You are adding additional qualifiers there that don't actually exist and by doing so you are changing the entire meaning of the sentence.
If you are going to throw in additional "implicit" made-up language to the RAW that fundamentally changes their meaning IMHO you had better have more solid support than just "context". Your personal interpretation of the "context" does not entitle you to add made-up language to the rules, especially if a reasonable person can disagree with you about the "context" and his interpretation of the rules doesn't require the addition of made-up language.
Also note that they could have easily written it to mean what you're claiming (e.g., "If all the powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline...") but they did not.
DeathReaper wrote: why are you singling out "all of his powers" when there is more to the rule?
"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
That is the whole rule, and has the same meaning as (e.g., "If all the powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline...")
If you can't see that those two different wordings have different meanings then there's really not much more I can do. But because hope springs eternal I will take one last shot at illustrating the difference.
Suppose I'm in a blueberry contest. The rule is that
if I pick all my blueberries from the same bush I will be eligible for a prize. I pick some blueberries from one bush and then head on over to the grocery store and buy some more. I claim that I am eligible for a prize because all the blueberries I picked were from the same bush. Am I eligible for a prize?
But I've also got some blueberries I didn't even pick. The intent of the rule is to require that all my blueberries are from the same bush. And coincidentally that's exactly what the rule says. If you insist on adding unstated qualifiers maybe you should be careful that you aren't circumventing the intent of the rule by doing so?
rigeld2 wrote: You have evidence that you're correct about the intent? Like - actual evidence, not assumptions?
I'm sure you can cite such evidence.
You mean like the fact that they gave an explicit exemption for non-discipline powers like Force, even though such an exemption would be completely superfluous if Psychic Focus only required generated powers to be from the same discipline? Or what about the thoroughness of their efforts in ensuring that a psyker with powers from multiple disciplines never gains the benefit of Psychic Focus even if those extra-discipline powers are granted after the game begins?
But don't get me wrong - my interpretation is based on a literal reading of the RAW. The other side's interpretation relies on "context" - i.e. the rules don't mean what they literally say, there are unwritten qualifiers that we need to infer. Well, that then goes to intended meaning, to which my reponse is - wrong on RAI too.
DeathReaper wrote: Since your interpretation is not based on context, your arguments are incorrect.
You need to take context into account when deciphering the rules set.
Also: No, there is no evidence about the intent, as we can not read the rules writers minds.
You are inferring unwritten qualifiers into your reading of the rules. Therefore your interpretation is not based on the RAW. If you have any evidence as to why we should disregard the literal rules as written in favor of your interpretation present it. If you wish to make an intent-based argument as to why the rules don't mean what they actually say, feel free do so and I will rebut.
DeathReaper wrote: Since your interpretation is not based on context, your arguments are incorrect.
You need to take context into account when deciphering the rules set.
Also: No, there is no evidence about the intent, as we can not read the rules writers minds.
You are inferring unwritten qualifiers into your reading of the rules. Therefore your interpretation is not based on the RAW. If you have any evidence as to why we should disregard the literal rules as written in favor of your interpretation present it. If you wish to make an intent-based argument as to why the rules don't mean what they actually say, feel free do so and I will rebut.
Context is important, otherwise the words are meaningless...
The rules do mean what they actually say, but you have to understand the context to be able to correctly assess the circumstances of the rules.
You should not disregard the literal rules as written, but to disregard the context would be to disregard the literal rules as written.
DeathReaper wrote: Context is important, otherwise the words are meaningless...
The words in question have a meaning that is perfectly clear. They just don't mean what you think they mean. I've even been so kind as to give you some examples of words that do mean what you are thinking, but unfortunately those words aren't the ones that appear in the rulebook.
I contend that "all his powers" means all his powers. You contend that "all his powers" really means all his generated powers. Your interpretation requires us to infer the existence of an unwritten qualifier and therefore departs from the rules as written. The burden is on you to provide justification for this. You have yet to do so. And just in case it wasn't clear from the context, by "justification" I mean actual support from the RAW - things like quotes, page references, etc. - the kind of stuff you would expect to see in YMDC.
"If a Psyker generates all of her psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that psyker will automatically know that disciplines primaris power"
your omission of the word generated which is clearly right before "all of her" is what is known as cherry picking, and makes you completely incorrect on this topic.
blaktoof wrote: it means all her generated powers, as it says
"If a Psyker generates all of her psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that psyker will automatically know that disciplines primaris power"
your omission of the word generated which is clearly right before "all of her" is what is known as cherry picking, and makes you completely incorrect on this topic.
I'm not omitting anything. I'm just not adding words that aren't there. The addition of words that aren't there is what is known as "making rules up" and makes you completely incorrect on this topic.
Farseer Pef wrote:If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.
blaktoof wrote:it means all her generated powers, as it says
"If a Psyker generates all of her psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that psyker will automatically know that disciplines primaris power"
your omission of the word generated which is clearly right before "all of her" is what is known as cherry picking, and makes you completely incorrect on this topic.
Grammer time. Reread the colored sentence. In green we have a VERB, which tells us what the subject (the Pskyer) does. In blue we have the DIRECT OBJECT, which is what receives the verb's action.
What does the Psyker do? He generates. What does he generate? His powers. What kind of powers? All of his powers.
Did you see "generated powers" anywhere? You did not. Because the sentence does not mention the direct object you are looking for.
"All of his powers" vs "his generated powers." There is a world of difference between these direct objects.
What you are looking for would read:
If a Psyker generates his GENERATED powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), ...
This is not the case. There is no context to consider. It is the first sentence in a two sentence paragraph.
Read more about blueberries in my earlier post to help get a grasp on how important sentence structure is.
Farseer pef, "all of his powers" is talking about his generated powers. Remember they are talking about generated powers because the Psyker will gain "that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."
His other powers directly references the generated powers from a single discipline.
If he generates powers from multiple disciplines he does not get Psychic focus.
DeathReaper wrote: Farseer pef, "all of his powers" is talking about his generated powers.
...
His other powers directly references the generated powers from a single discipline.
...
It is like context is important or something.
Death reaper, I still don't see "generated" inside "all of his powers." Cherry picking invisible cherries. Odd.
"His other powers" doesn't mean jack-all to the conversation. You are indirectly, and incorrectly, inferring that the phrase at the end of a sentence somehow changes what the conditional clause means at the beginning of the sentence.
It is like sentence structure is important or something.
And the rules of grammar are important, but you seem content to willfully ignore them.
I have no doubt that for you there is an unwritten "generated" before "powers". The weak link in your argument however is that we are debating "what the rules mean in proper English" as opposed to "what the rules mean to DeathReaper when he's free to infer words that aren't there." On the latter I will concede your interpretation is absolutely correct!
your arguments are ignoring context though, so there is that.
This part of the rule proves they are talking about generated powers:
"...that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.in addition to his other powers."
No one's ignoring context. Some people disagree with your interpretation of the context. It's very difficult to convince anyone that something is strictly RAW if it requires inferences through context, as any such inferences are inherently in RAI territory. This is especially true when multiple readings are valid grammatically.
your arguments are ignoring context though, so there is that.
This part of the rule proves they are talking about generated powers:
"...that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.in addition to his other powers."
I'm honestly at a loss here. I don't see how what you quoted in any way proves what you're claiming it proves.
The portion of the rule you quoted is simply saying that the psyker gains the primaris power of the discipline from which he generated all of his powers. This primaris power is gained in addition to any other powers he knows. If you followed the rule properly the only powers he should have at the end of the day are the powers he generated from Discipline X, Discipline X's primaris power and any powers he may know that are explicitly exempted from the rule (i.e. - those not belonging to a discipline).
I'm not entirely sure what you think the rule you quoted means as I don't own the DeathReaper edition of the rules with all the verbiage omitted from the general release so please feel free to elaborate.
If you followed the rule properly the only powers he should have at the end of the day are the powers he generated from Discipline X, Discipline X's primaris power and any powers he may know that are explicitly exempted from the rule (i.e. - those not belonging to a discipline).
I'm honestly at a loss here. I don't see how what you quoted in any way proves what you're claiming it proves.
"...that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.in addition to his other powers."
They are talking about generating powers.
They are talking about gaining the primaris of the discipline you generated all of your powers from.
Thus the context being they are talking about generated powers, and not every single power he has.
Even this like is talking about the powers that are generated... "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
If he generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline is talking about generating powrs, it is not concerned with non generated powers because they are specifically talking about a single psychic discipline and the generation of powers within that discipline.
If you followed the rule properly the only powers he should have at the end of the day are the powers he generated from Discipline X, Discipline X's primaris power and any powers he may know that are explicitly exempted from the rule (i.e. - those not belonging to a discipline).
I'm honestly at a loss here. I don't see how what you quoted in any way proves what you're claiming it proves.
"...that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.in addition to his other powers."
They are talking about generating powers.
They are talking about gaining the primaris of the discipline you generated all of your powers from.
Thus the context being they are talking about generated powers, and not every single power he has.
Even this like is talking about the powers that are generated... "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
If he generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline is talking about generating powrs, it is not concerned with non generated powers because they are specifically talking about a single psychic discipline and the generation of powers within that discipline.
OK this has become almost surreal. You posted a bunch of words that look like they came out of the rulebook but then you infer all kinds of hidden meanings that have no discernable relationship to what you quoted. It's like you're using your own version of English (DeathReaperese?) or you have some kind of secret decoder that reveals all the hidden words the rest of us can't see.
Here's the thing. In English it's OK to talk about different kinds of things in the same sentence. Like I could talk about "angry dogs" and "all dogs" in the same sentence and "angry dogs" would refer to dogs that are angry and "all dogs" would refer to the entirety of dogdom. The adjective "angry" doesn't get magically applied to all instances of "dog" within a 30 mile radius. That's how words work in our language. I hope that clears things up.
So question then. If just knowing a power is not generating them, does the Broodlord (who automatically knows The Horror psychic power (and does not roll for powers) benefit from Psychic Focus and gain the Dominion psychic power?
If not, why would GW change the wording for Dominion to be able to cast non-Synapse Psykers (of which the only one is the Broodlord)?
Happyjew wrote: So question then. If just knowing a power is not generating them, does the Broodlord (who automatically knows The Horror psychic power (and does not roll for powers) benefit from Psychic Focus and gain the Dominion psychic power?
If not, why would GW change the wording for Dominion to be able to cast non-Synapse Psykers (of which the only one is the Broodlord)?
From the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers":
In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed - where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.
From this it could be inferred that there are 2 ways to generate powers - 1) have the power specifically listed in your Army List Entry or 2) generate them randomly. It's not entirely clear because "generate" is not a defined term and the word "generate" does not explicitly appear in the rule dealing with 1). However, since 1) does appear under the section "Generating Psychic Powers" one could argue from context (!!!) that this counts as power generation. In that case the Broodlord's power would be a generated power.
Of course the more likely explanation is that GW never intended to be this precise and basically thought that everyone would just give Psychic Focus to any the psyker with powers from only one discipline (while disregarding discpline-less powers like Force). But that would be RAI not RAW of course.
blaktoof wrote: regular focus disappears when you -generate- a power from another discipline.
a generated power requires you to roll for it.
chaos focus is not a generated power.
Right that might be true if the rule didn't use the word GAIN, however since it does use the word gain and not generate. A pink horror has one spell it can generate. So depending on where you roll will determine what you have. So you could have the primaris from change and malific.
IE roll on malific, choose the primaris, and chaos focus gets you the primaris change.
RAW pink horrors generating their powers during the course of the game are gaining powers during the course of the game and not before the game. They would not receive the same benefit.
blaktoof wrote: RAW pink horrors generating their powers during the course of the game are gaining powers during the course of the game and not before the game. They would not receive the same benefit.
RAW Pink Horrors do not receive the benefit of Psychic Focus regardless of when they generate them because they have not generated all of their powers from the same discipline due to Flickering Fire.
RAW Pink Horrors do not receive the benefit of Psychic Focus regardless of when they generate them because they have not generated all of their powers from the same discipline due to Flickering Fire.
This is false, as shown earlier in this thread.
They are specifically talking about the generated powers in that passage.
DeathReaper wrote:
The English grammar does not support your argument.
If a psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline, ...
Please explain to me, according to English Grammar, what is the subject, verb, and direct object in the conditional clause above.
If you use words not printed, this is not a RAW argument.
If you refer to words not in the conditional clause but in the main clause, you are not following English Grammar.
DeathReaper wrote: The English grammar does not support your argument.
If a psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline, ...
Please explain to me, according to English Grammar, what is the subject, verb, and direct object in the conditional clause above. If you use words not printed, this is not a RAW argument. If you refer to words not in the conditional clause but in the main clause, you are not following English Grammar.
Inc context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.
As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.
The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.
Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.
"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).
"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).
often YMDC 'discussions' and I use that term loosely as there is very little discussion and more of "this is what I am saying because x and you are wrong because y" which is often some of the better conversation to be had here, many times the because is left out.
At the end of the day we are all just a person behind a keyboard, and we can consider that the text we are responding to is just text, or is a person behind a keyboard.
often many people here, sometimes myself included, forget that.
When an argument comes down to grammar debate, the argument is over. No side has won, as even if one was right about the ruling, it was lost on the otherside so either the way it was conveyed was not enough to encourage other people to see the rule for the writing it was there, or they were just wrong anyways.
Utlimately do not let that dissuade you from the forums, YMDC is a great place for answers that are easy to answer. But if it goes on for more than 1-2 pages the answer was for some reason not easy to answer and honestly you are wasting your time to read the thread unless you just want to argue a point, like some of us seem to do.
DeathReaper wrote: Inc context, they are talking about generated powers.
Prove it.
I just did, read what I quoted.
Also:
page 23, top right, in bold...
"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).
Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.
Gaining the Primaris does not happen during the course of the game, it happens before the game starts so the rule about losing Psychic focus does not apply to this situation as you generate powers before the game.
A Psyker can have Chaos Psychic Focus and Psychic Focus as I have shown with rules quotes to back up my argument.
The complete crux of the argument lies in whether or not "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for or if they consist of all powers the psycher knows (with the exception of force).
Its pretty clear to me though, that the intent was for psykers to either have psykic focus or chaos psykic focus and not both.
Eihnlazer wrote: The complete crux of the argument lies in whether or not "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for or if they consist of all powers the psycher knows (with the exception of force).
Generating powers have a specific process
Generate has only one meaning in the 40K ruleset, because the 40K ruleset defines generating Psychic Powers. This is a specific process defined in the BRB as:
"the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below."(The psychic Phase section, Number of Psychic Powers sub-section)
"a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."
"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline" (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).
Psykers generate powers randomly, out of a chosen discipline. You generate a number of psychic powers equal to the psykers Mastery Level.
Therefore "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for.
Currently, as it stands, they list two methods and two methods alone as to how powers are generated. You cannot claim a power is generated unless it follows those two methods.
"Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Primaris Powers sub-section).
Basically if a psyker chooses all of his powers from the same psychic discipline he gets Psychic Focus. This is clearly only dealing with powers the psyker can choose. no other powers are considered, because the psyker has chosen all of his powers (That he has a choice on) from one discipline. Chaos Psychic focus is never a choice, so you do not choose that power, you are still gaining Psychic focus.
If you generate all your powers from one disciplne you get focus, not if all the powers you have are from one discipline you gain focus. It places the limit on generation - if you gain powers in another way then you can still have generated all your powers from one discipline.
DeathReaper wrote:
Therefore "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for.
Eihnlazer wrote:The complete crux of the argument lies in whether or not "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for or if they consist of all powers the psycher knows (with the exception of force).
Close, Eihnlazer. The crux of the argument has been about what "all of his powers" means. To some involved, it means only "generated powers" because of reasons I have not heard.
The Psychic Focus rule asks "if a psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic dsicipline,..". It is important to realize there are two checks in those words.
You must check to see if the psyker generates all of his powers. That means, he must roll for ALL of his powers. If he did NOT, then no Psychic Focus.
The second check is if ALL of his powers came from the same psychic discipline. If he did not, then no Psychic Focus.
Side note, Force has a very clear and specific rule that prevents it from interfering with gaining Psychic Focus.
"Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Primaris Powers sub-section).
The context of this note is talking about powers the Psyker knows. As I have shown.
DeathReaper wrote: Inc context, they are talking about generated powers.
Prove it.
I just did, read what I quoted.
You proved nothing. You quoted a bunch of rules and then made a bunch of unsupported (and incorrect) assertions as to what they meant. When I ask you to prove something I don't want the rule and what you think it means - that's not a proof. I want the rule and why you think it means what you think it means. And since it's the finer details of the grammar that are giving you problems, please feel free to be as pedantic as possible in your proof.
"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).
Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.
You do realize that the rule you just quoted has exactly the same grammatical structure as the rule that grants Psychic Focus, right? Here, I'll color code it for you:
If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
Subject: Psyker
Verb: chosen, generates
Direct object: all of his powers
You have shown that generating is equivalent to choosing. You have not shown that all of his powers is equivalent to all of his generated powers. Try again.
DeathReaper wrote: I actually have, I have show that generating powers is equivalent to choosing powers.
also I have proven that if they choose all of their powers "from the same psychic discipline" he gains Psychic Focus.
This rule is not concerned with powers you do not choose.
Do not ignore the context of the rule.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: You proved nothing. You quoted a bunch of rules and then made a bunch of unsupported (and incorrect) assertions as to what they meant. When I ask you to prove something I don't want the rule and what you think it means - that's not a proof. I want the rule and why you think it means what you think it means. And since it's the finer details of the grammar that are giving you problems, please feel free to be as pedantic as possible in your proof.
DeathReaper wrote: If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
This it only concerned with the powers the psyker generates...
So you say. But that's not the way English works. Sorry.
It really is, if you comprehend what the sentence is actually saying and you do not ignore the context.
Sorry.
My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. The sentence means what it says. It only means what you say when you add in extra words that aren't there. When you add your own words to the rules in order to make them mean what you want them to mean instead of what they actually say that is what is known as "making up rules". So far you've given zero justification as to why you should be allowed to do so.
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Note that the above is in a separate self-contained box off to the side in the section entitled "Mastery Levels". It does NOT appear in the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers" (that would be the next section). The "Mastery Levels" section deals with the number of powers a Psyker knows including generated powers as well as powers granted by Psychic Focus and the Force special rule. Therefore we cannot simply assume that any reference to "powers" here really means "generated powers" by virtue of its location in this section as the section addresses all powers, not just generated ones.
Now note the last sentence in the quote above - "if a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline" they are not considered for determining Psychic Focus. So what powers are considered when determining Psychic Focus? Powers the Psyker "has" that are "part of a discipline". And which ones do we consider? Some of his powers? No - per the first sentence in the quote above, we must consider "all of his powers".
Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" as you claim. Is Force a generated power? No - if the Psyker has a weapon with the Force special rule he automatically knows the Force psychic power. So if Force is not a generated power and we only care about generated powers what is the purpose of the last sentence in the quoted section above? Why are they including an exception for a non-generated power if the rule only deals with generated powers?
DeathReaper wrote: We must consider "all of his powers" from the ones he is allowed to choose, as per the context of the rules entry.
You have made vague and repeated (and repeated and repeated...) references to "context" but have so far given literally zero support from the written rules for this interpretation. Repeating the word "context" ad nauseam without any further explanation is not an argument.
I have demonstrated that your interpretation requires the inference of words that are not actually written in the rules. I have further quoted the rules entry in its entirety as well as references to the section of the rulebook in which it is located showing that no such inferences are supportable by anything actually written there. You have yet to address any of my points.
If it is your contention that the instance of the verb "generates" in the rule in question becomes an implicit adjective modifying the direct object "all of his powers" - and that it does so by virtue of the structure of that one sentence without reference to or reliance upon any context external to said sentence - all I can say to you is that this is in contravention of the rules of English grammar. If that is your position then I see no point in continuing this debate because we are, in essence, arguing in two different languages.
If that is not in fact your position then, in keeping with Tenet 1 of this forum, please formulate an actual argument based on the rules as written before replying.
I have formulated an actual argument based on the rules as written and you have ignored it, and the context of what the sentence is talking about. Your argument falls short because it fails to take the context into account.
DeathReaper wrote: I have formulated an actual argument based on the rules as written and you have ignored it, and the context of what the sentence is talking about. Your argument falls short because it fails to take the context into account.
I see that you have once again avoided addressing any of my points. Also I'd appreciate it if in the future you would refrain from making false accusations - I have not ignored any of your arguments. On the contrary I've directly refuted each of your arguments every time you've actually bothered to formulate one:
DeathReaper wrote: If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.
False. There is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline:
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Were it not for the above exception, psykers with a Force weapon would be ineligible for Psychic Focus due to the fact that they have a power that was not generated.
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
It is supported if you do not ignore the context.
"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule is discussing only the powers that a psyker can generate (As per the genearting Psychic Powers rules which includes rolling on the discipline), it is not concerned with non generated powers.
The rule in question is not discussing only powers the psyker can generate - it is discussing what condition must be met in order for a psyker to be granted a free non-generated power. In order to do so the psyker must generate "all of his powers" and they must be "from the same discipline". It doesn't say "all of his generated powers" - it says "all of his powers" period. It's spelled out in clear English. You are adding additional qualifiers there that don't actually exist and by doing so you are changing the entire meaning of the sentence.
If you are going to throw in additional "implicit" made-up language to the RAW that fundamentally changes their meaning IMHO you had better have more solid support than just "context". Your personal interpretation of the "context" does not entitle you to add made-up language to the rules, especially if a reasonable person can disagree with you about the "context" and his interpretation of the rules doesn't require the addition of made-up language.
Also note that they could have easily written it to mean what you're claiming (e.g., "If all the powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline...") but they did not.
"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).
Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.
You do realize that the rule you just quoted has exactly the same grammatical structure as the rule that grants Psychic Focus, right? Here, I'll color code it for you:
If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
Subject: Psyker
Verb: chosen, generates
Direct object: all of his powers
You have shown that generating is equivalent to choosing. You have not shown that all of his powers is equivalent to all of his generated powers. Try again.
DeathReaper wrote: "If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.
This. This is the assertion I want you to prove. You have stated it many times but have not provided any evidence as to why the sentence you quoted is only concerned with generated powers despite the fact that it says "all of his powers". This is the premise on which your entire argument is rests. Every other point you have made as to what constitutes a "generated power", when a power is gained, etc. is irrelevant if your premise is incorrect. Unless you can prove the assertion that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" your argument has no logical basis. I have yet to see you attempt to prove this. On the other hand I have presented evidence (which you have ignored) as to why this is NOT supported by the RAW:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Note that the above is in a separate self-contained box off to the side in the section entitled "Mastery Levels". It does NOT appear in the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers" (that would be the next section). The "Mastery Levels" section deals with the number of powers a Psyker knows including generated powers as well as powers granted by Psychic Focus and the Force special rule. Therefore we cannot simply assume that any reference to "powers" here really means "generated powers" by virtue of its location in this section as the section addresses all powers, not just generated ones.
Now note the last sentence in the quote above - "if a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline" they are not considered for determining Psychic Focus. So what powers are considered when determining Psychic Focus? Powers the Psyker "has" that are "part of a discipline". And which ones do we consider? Some of his powers? No - per the first sentence in the quote above, we must consider "all of his powers".
Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" as you claim. Is Force a generated power? No - if the Psyker has a weapon with the Force special rule he automatically knows the Force psychic power. So if Force is not a generated power and we only care about generated powers what is the purpose of the last sentence in the quoted section above? Why are they including an exception for a non-generated power if the rule only deals with generated powers?
Clearly it is you who are ignoring context.
If you have evidence to the contrary please present it - actual quotes from the rulebook will be necessary for this.
If you feel you have already presented said evidence and I have not addressed it please quote the post or posts in which you did and point out what arguments you feel I have not addressed.
Also if you have an explanation as to why, if the rule only deals with generated powers, Force requires an explicit exemption I'd like to hear that as well.
And before you respond, please note that repeating the word "context" over and over again while providing no further explanation or logical support for it is not an argument.
In closing I'd like to once more remind you of Tenet 1 of this forum:
Lorek wrote: 1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.
DeathReaper wrote: "If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.
This. This is the assertion I want you to prove. You have stated it many times but have not provided any evidence as to why the sentence you quoted is only concerned with generated powers despite the fact that it says "all of his powers". This is the premise on which your entire argument is rests. Every other point you have made as to what constitutes a "generated power", when a power is gained, etc. is irrelevant if your premise is incorrect. Unless you can prove the assertion that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" your argument has no logical basis. I have yet to see you attempt to prove this.
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Note that the above is in a separate self-contained box off to the side in the section entitled "Mastery Levels". It does NOT appear in the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers" (that would be the next section). The "Mastery Levels" section deals with the number of powers a Psyker knows including generated powers as well as powers granted by Psychic Focus and the Force special rule. Therefore we cannot simply assume that any reference to "powers" here really means "generated powers" by virtue of its location in this section as the section addresses all powers, not just generated ones.
Now note the last sentence in the quote above - "if a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline" they are not considered for determining Psychic Focus. So what powers are considered when determining Psychic Focus? Powers the Psyker "has" that are "part of a discipline". And which ones do we consider? Some of his powers? No - per the first sentence in the quote above, we must consider "all of his powers".
Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" as you claim. Is Force a generated power? No - if the Psyker has a weapon with the Force special rule he automatically knows the Force psychic power. So if Force is not a generated power and we only care about generated powers what is the purpose of the last sentence in the quoted section above? Why are they including an exception for a non-generated power if the rule only deals with generated powers?
Once you actually take the context into account, This addresses it:
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).
DeathReaper wrote: Once you actually take the context into account, This addresses it:
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).
The underlined is the portion of your argument that you have provided no support for. Please elaborate.
DeathReaper wrote: Once you actually take the context into account, This addresses it:
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).
The underlined is the portion of your argument that you have provided no support for. Please elaborate.
This is all you will get. At this point this thread can be locked as it is a page of repetition now.
