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 Happyjew wrote:
So question then. If just knowing a power is not generating them, does the Broodlord (who automatically knows The Horror psychic power (and does not roll for powers) benefit from Psychic Focus and gain the Dominion psychic power?

If not, why would GW change the wording for Dominion to be able to cast non-Synapse Psykers (of which the only one is the Broodlord)?

From the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers":

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed - where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

From this it could be inferred that there are 2 ways to generate powers - 1) have the power specifically listed in your Army List Entry or 2) generate them randomly. It's not entirely clear because "generate" is not a defined term and the word "generate" does not explicitly appear in the rule dealing with 1). However, since 1) does appear under the section "Generating Psychic Powers" one could argue from context (!!!) that this counts as power generation. In that case the Broodlord's power would be a generated power.

Of course the more likely explanation is that GW never intended to be this precise and basically thought that everyone would just give Psychic Focus to any the psyker with powers from only one discipline (while disregarding discpline-less powers like Force). But that would be RAI not RAW of course.

blaktoof wrote:
regular focus disappears when you -generate- a power from another discipline.

a generated power requires you to roll for it.

chaos focus is not a generated power.

Right that might be true if the rule didn't use the word GAIN, however since it does use the word gain and not generate. A pink horror has one spell it can generate. So depending on where you roll will determine what you have. So you could have the primaris from change and malific.

IE roll on malific, choose the primaris, and chaos focus gets you the primaris change.

the word 'gain' in a vacuum could be applied how you are stating, however it is "gained during the course of play"

the other thing, generating powers, happens "before the game begins"

before the game begins is not during the course of play, one comes before the other.

What about Pink Horrors that are summoned in and roll to generate on malefic?

RAW pink horrors generating their powers during the course of the game are gaining powers during the course of the game and not before the game. They would not receive the same benefit.

blaktoof wrote:
RAW pink horrors generating their powers during the course of the game are gaining powers during the course of the game and not before the game. They would not receive the same benefit.

RAW Pink Horrors do not receive the benefit of Psychic Focus regardless of when they generate them because they have not generated all of their powers from the same discipline due to Flickering Fire.

So you don't think any of the Daemon models can ever have the malefic primaris power of summoning without swapping?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

RAW Pink Horrors do not receive the benefit of Psychic Focus regardless of when they generate them because they have not generated all of their powers from the same discipline due to Flickering Fire.

This is false, as shown earlier in this thread.

They are specifically talking about the generated powers in that passage.

 DeathReaper wrote:

This is false, as shown earlier in this thread.

They are specifically talking about the generated powers in that passage.

This is false, as shown earlier in the thread.

English grammar trumps unwritten words.

MrJog wrote:
So you don't think any of the Daemon models can ever have the malefic primaris power of summoning without swapping?

Correct.

 Farseer Pef wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

This is false, as shown earlier in this thread.

They are specifically talking about the generated powers in that passage.

This is false, as shown earlier in the thread.

English grammar trumps unwritten words.

Incorrect.

The English grammar does not support your argument.

DeathReaper wrote:
The English grammar does not support your argument.

If a psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline, ...

Please explain to me, according to English Grammar, what is the subject, verb, and direct object in the conditional clause above.
If you use words not printed, this is not a RAW argument.
If you refer to words not in the conditional clause but in the main clause, you are not following English Grammar.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Why does it always have to turn into people being rude to each other?

 Farseer Pef wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
The English grammar does not support your argument.

If a psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline, ...

Please explain to me, according to English Grammar, what is the subject, verb, and direct object in the conditional clause above.
If you use words not printed, this is not a RAW argument.
If you refer to words not in the conditional clause but in the main clause, you are not following English Grammar.

Inc context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.


As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

I like you MrJog.

often YMDC 'discussions' and I use that term loosely as there is very little discussion and more of "this is what I am saying because x and you are wrong because y" which is often some of the better conversation to be had here, many times the because is left out.

At the end of the day we are all just a person behind a keyboard, and we can consider that the text we are responding to is just text, or is a person behind a keyboard.

often many people here, sometimes myself included, forget that.

When an argument comes down to grammar debate, the argument is over. No side has won, as even if one was right about the ruling, it was lost on the otherside so either the way it was conveyed was not enough to encourage other people to see the rule for the writing it was there, or they were just wrong anyways.


Utlimately do not let that dissuade you from the forums, YMDC is a great place for answers that are easy to answer. But if it goes on for more than 1-2 pages the answer was for some reason not easy to answer and honestly you are wasting your time to read the thread unless you just want to argue a point, like some of us seem to do.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Inc context, they are talking about generated powers.

Prove it.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Inc context, they are talking about generated powers.

Prove it.

I just did, read what I quoted.

Also:

page 23, top right, in bold...

"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).

Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.

Gaining the Primaris does not happen during the course of the game, it happens before the game starts so the rule about losing Psychic focus does not apply to this situation as you generate powers before the game.

A Psyker can have Chaos Psychic Focus and Psychic Focus as I have shown with rules quotes to back up my argument.

The complete crux of the argument lies in whether or not "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for or if they consist of all powers the psycher knows (with the exception of force).


Its pretty clear to me though, that the intent was for psykers to either have psykic focus or chaos psykic focus and not both.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
The complete crux of the argument lies in whether or not "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for or if they consist of all powers the psycher knows (with the exception of force).

Generating powers have a specific process

Generate has only one meaning in the 40K ruleset, because the 40K ruleset defines generating Psychic Powers. This is a specific process defined in the BRB as:

"the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below."(The psychic Phase section, Number of Psychic Powers sub-section)

"a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline" (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly, out of a chosen discipline. You generate a number of psychic powers equal to the psykers Mastery Level.

Therefore "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for.

Currently, as it stands, they list two methods and two methods alone as to how powers are generated. You cannot claim a power is generated unless it follows those two methods.

"Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Primaris Powers sub-section).

Basically if a psyker chooses all of his powers from the same psychic discipline he gets Psychic Focus. This is clearly only dealing with powers the psyker can choose. no other powers are considered, because the psyker has chosen all of his powers (That he has a choice on) from one discipline. Chaos Psychic focus is never a choice, so you do not choose that power, you are still gaining Psychic focus.

If you generate all your powers from one disciplne you get focus, not if all the powers you have are from one discipline you gain focus. It places the limit on generation - if you gain powers in another way then you can still have generated all your powers from one discipline.

DeathReaper wrote:
Therefore "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for.

Eihnlazer wrote:The complete crux of the argument lies in whether or not "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for or if they consist of all powers the psycher knows (with the exception of force).

Close, Eihnlazer. The crux of the argument has been about what "all of his powers" means. To some involved, it means only "generated powers" because of reasons I have not heard.
The Psychic Focus rule asks "if a psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic dsicipline,..". It is important to realize there are two checks in those words.
You must check to see if the psyker generates all of his powers. That means, he must roll for ALL of his powers. If he did NOT, then no Psychic Focus.
The second check is if ALL of his powers came from the same psychic discipline. If he did not, then no Psychic Focus.

Side note, Force has a very clear and specific rule that prevents it from interfering with gaining Psychic Focus.

Except the note disagrees with your argument

"Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Primaris Powers sub-section).

The context of this note is talking about powers the Psyker knows. As I have shown.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Inc context, they are talking about generated powers.

Prove it.

I just did, read what I quoted.

You proved nothing. You quoted a bunch of rules and then made a bunch of unsupported (and incorrect) assertions as to what they meant. When I ask you to prove something I don't want the rule and what you think it means - that's not a proof. I want the rule and why you think it means what you think it means. And since it's the finer details of the grammar that are giving you problems, please feel free to be as pedantic as possible in your proof.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Also:

page 23, top right, in bold...

"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).

Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.

You do realize that the rule you just quoted has exactly the same grammatical structure as the rule that grants Psychic Focus, right? Here, I'll color code it for you:

If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...

Subject: Psyker
Verb: chosen, generates
Direct object: all of his powers

You have shown that generating is equivalent to choosing. You have not shown that all of his powers is equivalent to all of his generated powers. Try again.

I actually have, I have show that generating powers is equivalent to choosing powers.

also I have proven that if they choose all of their powers "from the same psychic discipline" he gains Psychic Focus.

This rule is not concerned with powers you do not choose.

Do not ignore the context of the rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I actually have, I have show that generating powers is equivalent to choosing powers.

also I have proven that if they choose all of their powers "from the same psychic discipline" he gains Psychic Focus.

This rule is not concerned with powers you do not choose.

Do not ignore the context of the rule.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
You proved nothing. You quoted a bunch of rules and then made a bunch of unsupported (and incorrect) assertions as to what they meant. When I ask you to prove something I don't want the rule and what you think it means - that's not a proof. I want the rule and why you think it means what you think it means. And since it's the finer details of the grammar that are giving you problems, please feel free to be as pedantic as possible in your proof.

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...

This it only concerned with the powers the psyker generates...

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...

This it only concerned with the powers the psyker generates...

So you say. But that's not the way English works. Sorry.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...

This it only concerned with the powers the psyker generates...

So you say. But that's not the way English works. Sorry.

It really is, if you comprehend what the sentence is actually saying and you do not ignore the context.

Sorry.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...

This it only concerned with the powers the psyker generates...

So you say. But that's not the way English works. Sorry.

It really is, if you comprehend what the sentence is actually saying and you do not ignore the context.

Sorry.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. The sentence means what it says. It only means what you say when you add in extra words that aren't there. When you add your own words to the rules in order to make them mean what you want them to mean instead of what they actually say that is what is known as "making up rules". So far you've given zero justification as to why you should be allowed to do so.

Your argument is ignoring the context, don't