I'm aware there probably aren't a vast amount of people looking at lists for this army just yet, but I'm already very taken with the concept. So with that in mind I thought it would be great if there was at least some discussion going, as I'm really not very experienced with anything even remotely like guard so maybe I can drag in some good people.

To me the first thing to keep in mind is the total lack of an orders system, so while some units have seen point drops due to lower BS etc this doesn't seem to have been fully taken into account in every units cost. Obviously this is far from the only difference though with the myriad of different options and with even something seemingly core like a renegades (infantry) platoon having been changed quite a bit, the ability to take a special for every 5 makes the veterans in this list seem almost redundant especially when they're so much more expensive per body, and how often do you find yourself rolling a 5+ armour save?

Also very torn on a HQ to get going with, Primaris-Rogue Witch seems to be not much mastery, and I don't know that I'd want to take rogue psykers just to give him more. I'm not seeing why you would actually want the mutants table so that's mutant overlord out for me though as with many things feel free to sway me on this.

Master of the Horde is one of the first seemingly viable ones, though having to take two platoons means a lot of points going into standard mooks, although the chance of them coming back on is rather tasty, seems to me to be the way to run a foot horde, and oh man can you ever run a horde.

Arch-Heretic doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless I'm missing something, woo I save a tiny amount of points on a devotion which is less than his cost, and then I can pay twice that much to get potentially better leadership when the other thing he unlocks is more of the unit that makes leadership matter less.

Heretek Magus is my definite favourite (with perhaps a little bias), your warlord becomes a lot less squishy than the rest of your army, having access to decimators and defilers while I'm sure it's fluffy it's also mostly pointless. Decimators are terrible and defilers are still massively overcosted especially in this army (I'm sure we'll get to their artillery options later). The good thing for me is the meltagun costed FNP 6+, it's not going to save a tonne of them but at least it's as cheap if not cheaper than an actual save on most units and should reduce small arms casualties slightly, as with most upgrades in the list the more guys in the squad the better the value.

Bloody-handed Reaver definitely encourages an elite feel, but it does this in an army of random leadership values and high costs on elite units, someone please convince me otherwise as he sounds a barrel of laughs to play. Thrown in 5++ and access to hot-shot weaponry on veterans and himself is rather fun, however having to buy militia training on everything negates most of the points savings from guard, and whilst access to lots more flak armour is good I don't seem to see many games where a 5+ save even comes into play much.

So fingers crossed for someone else with the book joining in.

Happy to once my book gets here. Somewhat on topic can you take more than one Sicaran or is it a relic 0-1 type situation?

Oh dear questions about the marines and daemons bits already.

All of the vehicles with the Infernal Relic rule much like the Sicaran for example, have a rule where if you take more than one you have to have one of the following as an HQ: Abaddon, a Warpsmith, or... a sorcerer with malefic daemonology. Obviously everyone takes a sorc anyway, so for the cost of one roll on daemonology you can take as many relics as you like within the usual constraints of a FOC. If they're the allied force the compulsory HQ must always be one of the three I listed no matter how many relics you want to take (even if it's only one). Oh and as an added bonus if the HQ in question boards a possessed vehicle you never need to roll to see if someone gets eaten though you can choose to if you're trying to get a hullpoint back and you even get to pick who dies.

I appreciate the unrelated info. Everything about this book is exciting. I'll definitely partake in the discussion once I can give the book a once over.

Hey no problem just teasing honestly anything that gives the thread life can't be a bad thing, didn't even occur to me that you overseas chaps have a longer wait to get things from Nottingham. Spent far too much time this weekend trying to figure out how to build something good with the list and my gap of knowledge in this style of army is really telling hence the thread.

So I guess maybe a bit of talk about the HQ choices beyond customisation might be useful, everyone has to take at least one command squad, this squad is one arch-demagogue and four disciples. Now your arch-demagogue is the one you can choose to upgrade to one of the guys I listed in the first post, it's optional but most people will take that option. He can also take a covenant of chaos, now these are present in several units throughout the list, however it's more important on this chap.

Obviously there's the requisite four gods choices, but the only undivided option is to not take a covenant at all, these are lowly renegades how could they draw the attention of all of the pantheon. Every unit that takes a covenant will receive a bonus related to the god in question, nurgle is 6+ FNP, khorne is re-roll to wounds in round one of CC, slaanesh is fleet, tzeentch is BS2 snapshots. Covenants can be taken in several places through the army but I'm sure they'll be covered later.

So covenants are quite flexible, but on your HQ you're also going to see some FOC changes, taking no covenant grants you access to renegade marauders (hired guns and piratey types), khorne allows a unit of blood slaughterers in elite, nurgle is a unit of blight drones in elite and/or a unit of plague zombies as a troops choice. Slaanesh is a unit of noise marines or a sonic dread as an elite, tzeentch lets you take the rather fabulous renegade spawn as a non-compulsory troops at 0-3. So lot's of customisation comes from your HQ slot and you can really cement the feel of an army from here.

As for the command squad itself, you're not limited to staying at five chaps, you can bring the unit size up to 15 with melta-costed disciples, they're a little better statwise than a lot of the list. However unlike most of the units taking more will not increase your access to weapons, the squad is limited to one special and one heavy team regardless of number. There's also the usual range of banners, voxes (they do different things here), and power weps for your warlord etc. The unit is the only source I can see of the banner of hate, the list seems to feature a range of ways of dealing with random leadership, and this is one of those, 3D6 pick the lowest on the usual oh god oh god we're all going to die and pinning checks within 12" of the banner. Overall the unit itself isn't the most exciting as it's mainly your customised Arch-demagogue providing all the interesting bits here.

Here are some of my early thoughts on the Heretics and Renegades list, in what is overall a great book, and I think pretty much essential for anyone who's into Chaos.

My outlook of it is pretty allied heavy, in the same way that CSM and CD are more or less one big toybox. But now, CSM finally have proper battlebrothers! and not just cranky daemons who dont want to party together.

-The demagogue is very interesting, because he's dirt stinking cheap, and is actually a pretty potent little force multiplyer. The big deal here is that he's an independent character, and isnt stuck with his little weeny squad like the IG commanders are. Grab a covenant, and it effects whatever unit you stick him in, including any CSM allies. BS2 snapshooting havoks, wound-rerolling berserkers or noise marines or terminators, very cheap FNP 6+ on whatever giant hoard you want, etc etc. He's also got cheap powerweapons/fists, and if you pop him in a squad with multiple characters, he's a pretty good face-smasher (just not in challenges). Slap a lascannon on his abandoned disciple squad and let it plink away from ruins, putting that BS4 to work.

-The great thing with this list is that everything starts off extremely bare bones, but can be brought back up to scratch with upgrades. This makes it crazy efficient for list building, as you can save points on useless wargear that units normally have to pay mandatory. Like you said, 5+ armour save is pretty gak, especially for units that are optimally in cover anyways. So, those costs are taken out. Same for WS2, which is 99% of the time, just as good as WS3. So for those giant melee blobs, more points saved. The more you upgrade, the less efficeint they become to say, regular IG, but you can have a nice mix of cheap chaff, and 'elite' veteran units, which is really interesting as far as armies go.
Even the random leadership can be pretty easily accounted for. On MSU units, its probably better, as units have just as good a chance to have above average leadership, and it means you dont have to pay for sergeants for the ld boost (again, point efficient!). But if you need a big unit to have a good ld, then voxes, enforcers, and sigils will pretty much guarantee something very decent. And failing that, grab a CSM character and pop him in for fearless, or ld10. It's just a real shame that Dark Apostles ld bubble rule only effects units specifially from the CSM codex, as this would be the real place for them to shine.

-Marauders, disciples, and veterans are all sort of weirdly similar, and have some overlapping roles (though marauders are only available to undivided lists).
Marauders I think work best as cheap, but effective melee squads. Theyve got abnormally high initiative of 4, 3 attacks apiece, wound-soaking brutes, and non-character power weapons. Plus any of the specialist choices work well with an assualt unit. Theyre squishy, sure, but they wont break the bank and they can dish out some hurt.
Diciples are obviously the ranged specialists, with BS4, but their lack of special weapon slots make them rather lackluster at it. I guess they're okay as Las/Plas fireteams, but they dont hold a candle to IG vets.
Veterans I think would work best as MSU throwaway squads, making use of the cool doctrine upgrades. Grab a meltagun and outflank or deepstrike, and annoy the hell out of your opponent with a few of these sneaky teams.

-Infantry squads are interesting because they can double down on a zillion special weapons. For peanuts, you can FLOOD the table with 10man disruption squads, packing flamers or grenade launchers, just causing a headache. That 700pt enemy deathstar will be having a real rough time as it has to chew through half a dozen 40pt cultists squads.

-mutant rabble are the go-to melee hoard, and if you beef them up a bit, they look to be pretty outstanding in that category. They've got a 2 in 3 chance to get an awesome ability of either scout, or str4 hammer of wrath, and with a few characters joined in, they can get downright silly. A sergeant can give them one coveneant, and a joined demagogue can give them another. Say... fleet and rerolls to wound. Then add in an enforcer with combat drugs, and theyve got rage. Get fancy with Huron or other infiltration traits, and suddenly 50 angry little muties are up in your opponents grill, throwing down more attacks than a bus full of orks. They're not always reliable in HOW they'll be effective in combat, but they should always be able to drown something in clawing, biting, corpses.

-Ogryns seem interesting, but insanely expensive. I guess with some added characters you could make one hell of a footslogging deathstar. With 4+ armour of 5+ FNP they can get pretty durable.

-Renegade sentinel squadrons are like killa-kans, but half the cost. 20 clams for a walker??? That's crazy. A squad of 6 of these with rocket pods or heavy flamers would be hilarious. With AV12, theyre only slightly more expensive.

-Arvus lighters are like rhinos, except they fly. So anything you would stick in a rhino, stick it in an arvus. The idea of CSM aircav is awesome to me.

-The entirely of the heavy-support slot in the renegades lists exists entirely to drown the board in low-accuracy blast templates. hundreds and hundreds of blast templates. You thought DKOK had artillery. You aint seen nothin.
Also, heavy weapon teams running around with BS2 snapshot heavy stubbers brings a tear of joy to my eye. Finally a use for all those rambo catachans.

Can someone give a brief rundown of what the army list looks like and army wide special rules?

Man i'm tired of waiting for my copy of IA13. I ordered last monday with express too.

Looks interesting.

I'm a big fan of non-marine chaos. I've been bulking up Helcults for a while - again, fearless not-quite-guardsmen are very nice indeed.

If they're like the old Renegades & Heretics list, the major weakness is the random leadership - essentially, until the first time your leadership is invoked, you don't know what their leadership is. It used to be D6+4 - so anything from Grots to Lord Commissars was possible.

Yeah see this is why I need to read extra carefully didn't spot the independent character rule at all, that makes it even more interesting. The cheap power weapons are a major plus, especially when for some bonkers reason guard didn't get it.

Completely agree on the weirdly similar marauders, disciples and vets dilemma, overall though none of them seem to be worth the points, there's ways to make them better but they're all so expensive.

Mutant rabble, the problem is whilst scout is nice and all they're so easy to blind with a couple of blasts or templates thrown their way then all 50 of them are suddenly hitting on 5's. Combat drugs is definitely something to expand on, for the cost of a rhino you can add an enforcer to any squad granting it combat drugs to give any unit rage on the charge, on a small squad that's not much of a difference but on the size of blobs available it gets fun quickly.

I was really hoping Ogryns were good on the initial reports but I'm just not seeing it, though if you do take them the armour and FNP are a must, as is a chaos hound, that extra initiative combined with the rule increasing the chances or running things down should mean more splattered units.

Renegade sentinels are cheap but the AV12 isn't just slightly more expensive and they have dropped a point of BS, to put it in context for those without the book to make them equivalent BS and armour to an IG sentinel you'd have to take a full unit of 6 with both upgrades and you just break even with the guard dex in points. Might be worth just camo-cloaking them and sticking them behind tanks.

Yeah the heavy support section, this is where we want to be, imagine if you will every tank in the guard dex but with a point drop equivalent to a melta, not bad. But then the artillery pieces come along, earthshaker batteries at a rhino and two meltas, rapier laser destroyers at two meltas, quad launchers at three meltas. This list most certainly offers a lot in the way of massive quantities of punishing artillery fire.

Like I hit upon random leadership may well be in but there's so many ways to mitigate it now, HQ can take a banner allowing you 3D6 take the lowest bubble, lot's of command units can take a vox allowing other units to use their leadership within 12", vox casters for the same points as guard allow a reroll on the Ld dice when you decide it, fanatic allows you to roll two take the highest for the same check.

Well, the massed artillery isn't a surprise: this army is intended to take over from the Defenders of Vraks list.

Plus it's a good idea - if a lot of units have lower BS, then blast weapons where you don't have to be especially precise to do some damage are a good call.

Are blind weapons really that common where you play?

Ah I can see how you'd misunderstand that, I was referencing the mutants, the same table that gives them acute senses and scout also makes every blast, barrage or heavy weapon fired at them count as having blind. The whole table is basically three results of good thing with corresponding bad thing.

As the initiative test uses the highest in the unit, a CSM lord will pretty much negate any blind effects at init5. Even at init 3, theyl still ignoring it half the time. Once theyre in combat, nothing will be hitting them, and theyre free to grind down their target/s over the next few turns.

For the sentinels, low bs is largely irrelevant for flamers and rocket pods. For a little more than a russ, you can get 6x largeblast str4 templates, and 12 hullpoints. For under 300, theyre all AV12 or stealthy. Any way you cut it, thats a steal.

Hadn't even considered flamers, or rocket pods for that matter, seems a lot of weapon profiles are missing from the book which is the main criticism, shouldn't need several other books to reference as I didn't even know what rocket pods did, so as with all blasts in this list the point saving is perfect. Though I'd be more inclined to take wyverns if heavy support isn't completely full if they're a 1-5 per slot choice, one 5" blast for three meltas cost or four twin linked ignores cover shred small blasts for 25 more. Saying that though you at least seem more familiar with these sorts of lists and it's all new ground for me.

That and I really wasn't coming from it as an allied force point of view, though since I do have a large chaos marines catalogue to pick from it would make sense. Where would you go in terms of troops, I see you favour a mutant horde for one choice but how about the other? Oh and would a mechanised force be a good choice or is it footguard all the way.

I don't think mechanizing is this army's strong point. Disciples are no IG veterans, and nothing else really sticks out to me as needing a chimera. Keep em cheap, keep em numerous.

For basic troops, I'd run oodles of single infantry squads. 3-5 in a single troops choice, and they work as excellent speedbump and chaff units. 6 or 7 squads, and then fill the rest of the list with hard-hitting armour (or allied CSM/CD beasties). I used to do the same thing with IG and it always worked nicely for me. Except renegades do it even better.
-Theyre a lot cheaper
-They get two special weapons per 10, so theyre always a thorn. The enemy can't just let them crawl around the entire game without them getting some licks in, which forces them to at least dedicate some forces to them.
-Theyve got ccw and pistols, which makes them at least not total rubbish in combat. As bs2, you arent hitting with lasguns anways.
-random leadership has just as much chance at being higher than normal guardsmen. Killing those last two ld10 renegades just to get them out of the way is a pain for your opponent.
-Theyre MSU to the extream, so they go everwhere and grab objectives, and generally get in the way. Sometimes they might kill a few models, but theyre mostly to just throw wrenches in anything your opponent is trying to do. Let your tanks and artillery do all the heavy lifting.

I don't have the book by myself yet, but from what I read here and there it seems pretty awful, to be honest.

The vehicles list has the Sicaran, which is good, the hellblade/helltalon (always confuse them, the cheapest one) which is a bargain but occupies the single most crowded slot for both CSM and daemons, so it is quite difficult to use.
A part from that there's a bunch of overpriced mediocre vehicles: the contemptor which costs as much as a land raider to shoot 8 str 8 vp 4 shots, the nerfed drop pod which costs thrice as much, the sonic dreadnought that must be stationary to shoot 2 blastmasters and costs 20 points more than an heldrake.... pitiful.

The renegade list also seems pretty weak from what I've read:
No named special character... otherwise it risked to be a funny and spicy list.
Most HQ don't seem that good to me... even master of the horde... maybe they'll come back, but seems to me that they'll die so easily that they'll barely last one turn more.
Leman Russes without Pask or even a tank commander are nothing exception, not to mention that they compete with the wyvern for that lone heavy slot if you take them as allies.
2 special weapons per 10 veterans is useless, while 2 special weapons in a platoon of BS2 is pretty much useless, most of the time you won't land a shot, let alone wound something.
T5 Spawns are pretty much useless, they need T6 to be viable...
The only interesting thing seems to be the cheaper Wyvern, being twin-linked and often firing at BS1 make BS2 not that bad.

Please, show me that I'm utterly wrong because I hoped for really much more.
And don't tell me that "it's great because now chaos has a lot of exciting options!".
The options were there before, just 80% of them were dispersed in multiple books. And the codex already offers lot of exciting option, the only problem is that only a couple of them is good even for casual fluffy lists..

Does Chaos get access to all artillery in the AM book through this FW book?

As far as I know, this is the renegade HS list:

Heavy Support
Renegade Tank Squadron (All Russ variants, BS2, 1-3, can upgrade to BS3)
Renegade Artillery Squadron (Basilisk and Medusa, BS2, 1-3, can upgrade to BS3)
Renegade Strike Battery (Griffons and Wyverns, 1-5, BS2, can upgrade to BS3)
Renegade Hydra Battery (BS2, upgrades to BS3, 1-3)
Renegade Bombard Battery (1-3 Colossus, BS2 upgradeable to BS3)
Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery (immobile Earthshakers, can upgrade to Medusa Siege Guns, 1-3, usual BS stuff)
Renegade Support Squad (Weapons Teams, 3-6)
Renegade Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery (1-3)
Renegade Field Artillery Battery (1-4 Heavy Quad Launchers or Heavy Mortars, usual BS stuff)

I'm not entirely sure what you wanted? A book full of broken units that put the old heldrake to shame?
Of course its not that, and thank god.

To sum up the list: cheap, unreliable troops and inexpensive armor. Neither of these things are bad, all things considered.

If I had to run this list, it would probably be as an armored column or as an ally to a CSM force where the renegades simply replace cultists as meatshields and bring cheap ordnance.

 McGibs wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you wanted? A book full of broken units that put the old heldrake to shame?
Of course its not that, and thank god.

Something on par with AM/SM/Orks would have been a good start.
Take the renegades and heretics:

CONS:
- no named HQs (ok, Pask may be overpowered, but at least an heretic version of yarrick would have been fun)
- no orders (and don't even try to say they don't matter)
- no priest (if the enforcers are close to what they were before, they are a nerfed version of a commissar)
- no primaris psyker (really, that random list is so ugly i don't even consider it.. malediction blocked by fearless/resisted by stubborn and ATSKNF means that no unit ever will be affected, single blast on a 12" range means you'll cast your only psychic power once in the game, the blessing is useless)
- no tank commander
- can't take LR squadron as HQ choice
- if you take them as allies you either take a LR squadron or a Wyvern, can't take both... but you can with standard AM

PROS:
- BS2 wyvern is 10 points cheaper.

I can't understand your excitement. Why should I want to play this crappy list?
There's no reason in using this list over the AM list. Not even for fun... you've the same base units, with much less options, much less tactics and on average much less effective. You want to play an horde army?
Take 50 conscripts with a priest and a primaris pskyer....
The sad thing is that the whole book is on the same level. What does it give to you?

1) Spartan, we already had it. Did they give it the dozer blade at the very least? Without that I hardly see any reason to take it. Maybe it's me, but my LR WITH dozer blade has the bad habit to be immobilzed on turn 1 or 2...
2) Daemon Lords, already had it and for biggest game only.
3) Sicaran, no complain about that.
4) Hellblade/Helltalon, as I said before, the cheapest one is good.
5) The dreadclaw is fun. But at 100 pts and AV12 doesn't make any sense. You either use it for something very good (Kharn), knowing it won't reach turn 2, or you use it for something cheap, meaning you're spending too much on a transport.

Apart from that everything else is either completely useless/huge overpriced.

I think the main problem is that you try to make a direct comparison to IG, and they do not translate directly.

They are about flooding the field with cheap fodder in ways even IG would find wasteful.
They are not "unlock IG as allies for CSM", they are their own army that is to IG as CSM are to codex marines.

Orders? these are rebels, heretics and bands of mutants, not an organized bunch.
Characters? none of them is individually noteworthy.

Is a mass of random rabble of mutants and heretics that use stolen equipment in their pitiful "revolution" against the imperium with hopes that the powers of chaos will assist them, and they play as such.

I love the list. it works, its has its own style and I might actually branch out to this army and start my journey to chaos.

Sooo... what you wanted was IG. They have a book for that.

BoomWolf wrote:I think the main problem is that you try to make a direct comparison to IG, and they do not translate directly.

They are about flooding the field with cheap fodder in ways even IG would find wasteful.
They are not "unlock IG as allies for CSM", they are their own army that is to IG as CSM are to codex marines.

Orders? these are rebels, heretics and bands of mutants, not an organized bunch.
Characters? none of them is individually noteworthy.

McGibs wrote:Sooo... what you wanted was IG. They have a book for that.

You misunderstood me, I was saying something different.
Basically they took conscripts, swapped the lasgun for pistol/cc and removed a tremendous amount of benefits (no cheap zealot+reroll wounds, no 4++ invuln save, no reroll to hit, no orders, worse artillery to backup, less complimentary options, less ally choices, etc... ).
This is ok, because it's a different list. It HAD to be that way. 100% agree with you on that.

But since they still cost as much as the conscripts, you have to give something more. Otherwise you have a crappy Imperial Guard list that every time you compete with another Imperial Guard player on the same level will 100% defeat you.
What did they give?
FNP 6+ on a T3 model?
A chance to recover a 12" ranged random-yet-low-on-average discipline that moves 6"? So even if I recover it, chances are that it won't reach the objective anyway, while it's almost sure it won't do any damage due to being out of range.

The fact is that this list will work just in your showcase or against a vastly inferior player.

And that is not the correct way to design a list. Or are you saying that just because they are rebels they must suck?
Just tell it to the French king or to the Russian Zar...

Characters? none of them is individually noteworthy.

This does not make sense at all.
Every rebellion in human history had its leader.
Warhammer fluff is full of charismatic/powerfull renegades that turn entire star systems upside down for decades if not centuries.

Diablix you seem to be missing large parts of the pro's list, sure a 10 point cheaper Wyvern is indeed nice, but then there's also the 20 point cheaper earthshaker, medusa, heavy quad and heavy mortar gun carriages and rapier laser destroyers in a game where artillery pieces are almost universally superior to the vehicle equivalents.

Named HQ's are hardly a major element of a lot of lists and many of them throughout the various codexes are considered overcosted trash, yeah there's a couple of decent ones in the AM codex but this isn't meant to be the AM codex. There are however a large number of choices for your warlord to customise army theme, it's about time we had something like a Heretek in an actual list as a proper warlord.

Why are you trying to compare priests and enforcers they're not supposed to do the same thing, though a commisar that can provide rage to a 50 man blob for only 35 points as well as his other abilities is nothing to sniff at.

In fact almost all of your complaints seem to be that it isn't an AM list, it isn't meant to be, yes some units are costed higher when compared to an AM list but others are costed lower, you're still trying to build an AM list with it rather than focusing on the different strengths it can bring. A lot of your pro's you mention are also from allying in space marines or other imperials. How about scenarios allying in chaos marines or daemons, maybe you'd like to bring be'lakor for guaranteed invisibility who needs that 4++ anyway then. Or maybe instead of using those 100 point dreadclaws you'd like to use the 55 point arvus lighters to drop in melta chosen instead.

Everyone is still figuring out the lists strengths, I'm sure someone will find a way to break something, until then try to actually enjoy the theme a little.

They also added tons of things.

6+ fnp is one of many, "win by throwing more dice" assault drug injected huge mutant squads, get BS2 snap shots, some seriously spammable sentinels, cheaper tanks/artillery (who cares of BS2 when you use blasts and templates?), "send in the next wave", super ogryns, etc...

You can also have unlockable plague zombies, blight drones, noise marines, sonic dreads, blood slaughterers , chaos spawn

Why are you trying to compare priests and enforcers they're not supposed to do the same thing, though a commisar that can provide rage to a 50 man blob for only 35 points as well as his other abilities is nothing to sniff at.

I was comparing it to the commissar, as a matter of fact.
And if it's still like the old version you pass a single leadership test by executing the champion. After that it's useless. Is it still that way? I suppose so, seeing how little has changed...
And 35 points to provide rage to a blob which is likely to be down to 20 models once it reaches close combat is RIDICOLOUSLY overpriced. We're talking of WS2 Str 3 VP - models....

In fact almost all of your complaints seem to be that it isn't an AM list

My complaints are related to the fact that you get a crappier version of AM units without nothing worthy to compensate for the losses. Hence it is a matter of fact a weaker version of one of the less competitive lists to be allied with one of the worst codices of the game. Cool

maybe you'd like to bring be'lakor for guaranteed invisibility who needs that 4++ anyway then

Have you ever actually tried playing Be'Lakor against.. let's say, a competent ork player with lots of bikes/deffkoptas?
Did it survive more than one turn against their usual billion of twinlinked Str 5 shots?
Notice that I'm speaking of Orks... shooting...

6+ fnp is one of many, "win by throwing more dice" assault drug injected huge mutant squads, get BS2 snap shots, some seriously spammable sentinels, cheaper tanks/artillery (who cares of BS2 when you use blasts and templates?), "send in the next wave", super ogryns, etc...

Ogryns.. 55pts each? for a T5 model? really?
They would work if they weren't supposed to reach close combat, were most specialized CC units do actually spam Str10 weapons...
6+ fnp.. not only you save 1 wound every 6, but 80% of the shots of shooty lists are str 6 or higher, so I miss the point of it.
BS2 snapshots on a list that shots with... laspistols? Not to mention that most heavy weapons are templates, hence can't be snapshotted at all.
Spammable sentinels are an option that is worth considering, but we're most likely speaking of a BS2 multilaser, which will likely land 1 Str Vp - hit. Not that excited. Everything else is likely to not land at all.
T5 Spawns? Please guy, try to play a match with 15 T5 Spawn. Then repeat with T6 Spawns. I'm eager for your comments on that.
Finally, it may be me, but I don't find AM large blast competitive at all, too luck-dependent and don't play them even with standard AM. Can't see why I should start now that are even worse...

I also see you're ignoring everything positive I mentioned without addressing it at all.

I guess you also don't have access to the list and are basing everything off of rumour or bits you've seen confirmed from the way you're speaking, the enforcers are a 0-5 choice distributed as you wish from HQ. They add +1 Ld to any unit they're in and they can execute a model that is always of your choosing to re-roll a morale or Ld test as with any reroll you can only do it once per roll but it's certainly not a once ever.

Again you're clearly complaining without access to the list, the renegade infantry platoons getting one special per 5 is huge by itself, you can upgrade the whole unit (of up to 30) to BS3 for only the cost of a meltagun and they'll still be considerably cheaper than the AM squad even then. The benefit is in the cost, people think horde-guard has a lot of bodies, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Oh and alright you want to go with an ork deffkoptas example (because after all you totally see that all the time), those same units are going to be annihilated by the volume of fire and artillery this list brings, if they want to waste all their shots trying to kill be'lakor that's fine too he's provided a wonderful distraction. You'll also notice anyone playing chaos is almost universally still bringing him so it's not like you can somehow make out he's not a good unit.

Cheer up fella it's not all bad, maybe once you've read the book you'll be able to see that

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I also see you're ignoring everything positive I mentioned without addressing it at all.

Which are the positive parts that I didn't adress? I must have missed them...

I guess you also don't have access to the list and are basing everything off of rumour or bits you've seen confirmed from the way you're speaking, the enforcers are a 0-5 choice distributed as you wish from HQ. They add +1 Ld to any unit they're in and they can execute a model that is always of your choosing to re-roll a morale or Ld test as with any reroll you can only do it once per roll but it's certainly not a once ever.

I've already said that I don't have my copy yet. Yes, as I already said I'm basing what I'm saying on what I've seen on a video review, read on 3 different reviews, read on 4 different forum threads and asked first hand to people that have the rules. I believe I've a decent picture of the "codex" right now. Although as I already said I'm here also because I'm hoping to be proven wrong, while I'm waiting for my copy.
What I said was the old rule for the enforcers, I'm happy they've improved that.

Again you're clearly complaining without access to the list, the renegade infantry platoons getting one special per 5 is huge by itself, you can upgrade the whole unit (of up to 30) to BS3 for only the cost of a meltagun and they'll still be considerably cheaper than the AM squad even then. The benefit is in the cost, people think horde-guard has a lot of bodies, you ain't seen nothing yet.

It doesn't seem that huge to me. Either you take 10 and put them in a chimera (which is 2, worse than 3 offered by the veterans) or you take more than 12 by foot. This leaves the sniper rifle (okay, nice, but wouldn't define it huge as you said) or the plasmagun, which won't shot the first two turns, on average. The other weapons are way too short ranged to be effective on a platoon that goes by foot

Oh and alright you want to go with an ork deffkoptas example (because after all you totally see that all the time), those same units are going to be annihilated by the volume of fire and artillery this list brings, if they want to waste all their shots trying to kill be'lakor that's fine too he's provided a wonderful distraction. You'll also notice anyone playing chaos is almost universally still bringing him so it's not like you can somehow make out he's not a good unit.

We have a totally different view regarding Be'Lakor, probably because or local meta is totally different. In my experience ad deffkoptas/bikers heavy list is not that easily annihilated by IG artillery, however I hope I'll prove myself wrong when I'll try this list. I'm not really optmist, however.

First off, you really don't have a base to contribute to this discussion if youre not even up to date on the stuff thats being discussed. Get the list, inform yourself of what the hell the rules ACTUALLY are instead of basing them on your own assumptions. It's like making a court case against someone who keeps bringing up outdated laws from the 1920s.

Second, as has been pointed out numerous times, all your 'Cons" are purely based as IG analogues, with imperial analogue combinations (add priests, add azreal, add primaris, etc etc). This is an entirely different set of combinations that no one has really had the time to figure out yet. Internal combinations between itself, and between the other two chaos codices. Imperial armies dont get things like fearless chaos-lords, or or massivly fast assualt choices like spawn, seekers or hounds. They dont get monsterous creatures to throw into the mix. It's different. The same analogues arent there, there are different ones.

Third, you keep shooting down perfectly valid high points because you see them in a vacuum. X sucks because Y can defeat it. Welcome to warhammer 40k, where things have counters. All tanks suck when deepstriking meltagunners drop down next to them. All 2+ armour sucks when plasma is shooting at them. All hoards suck when theyre being squashed by templates or blasts that ignore cover. And if they dont have a counter, then theyre usually horribly unbalanced. That's some pretty flawed logic right there.

You also have some trouble with scale (again, the whole vacuum thing). 10 guardsmen with two specials isn'nt that impressive, youre right. 100 guardsmen with twenty special weapons will get some licks in.
Lets look at some examples:
Infantry squads can be taken in 3-5 squads per troop slot, and are 2pts cheaper than a guardsman. Pretty much everything in the game defeats 5+ armour anyways, and they wont be shooting that much. Theyve each got pistols and ccws, and can take a special per 5. Because of their low BS, you give them flamers or grenade launchers (also assault weapons, handy). You can take three of these squads (one troop choice) for 120pts. For just under 500 points, youve got TWELVE independent squads of the little bastards running around the board, blocking enemy movement, providing cover, tying up units in close combat , and generally being a giant pain in the ass. Then youve got plenty of points to add in artillery, tanks, aircraft, allied chaos beasties, deathstarts, etc etc. You control the board.

Another example, mutant rabble. Same pointcost, but can take units of 50 of them. For the cost of 3 IG squads. Again, pistols and CCWs. And they've got a 1 in 3 chance to get scout and acute senses (and get blinded a lot, but that can be delt with), and a 1 in 3 chance to have str4 hammer of wrath. Then for the cost of a plasmagun, you can give all 50 of them fleet. Or shred in first round of combat. Or both, if you add in a demagogue. Add an enforcer (who have 2w, and can throw out 6 power weapon attacks on the charge, by the by) and now the entire thing has rage.
So, 50 mutants with up to 4 attacks each on the charge, with fleet or shred, and with scout or hammer of wrath (or fear... woo), and rage (and some power weapon attacks) for around 200 points.
And then (if you really wanted to model them), you stick 4 or 5 of them in a list, with points to spare. Ork green hoard players would be squeeling with glee if they had that ammount of bodies.
Pop in a chaos lord, and theyre fearless.

I'm not really optmist, however.

No kidding.

I just want to see the face of horror when someone gets taken down in a major turny by a list of the lost and damned that did not even bother getting anything special

Just the "we have reserves" thing, and an absurd spam of big squads dedicated sole for board control.

I have yet to run the numbers, but I believe its possible in a 1850 point list to field over 400 models, even with mere 1/3 chance to return I don't think many top-tier lists have the theoretical kill potential to stop them from holding half or more of the objectives by sheer swarming even if the mutants themselves fail to kill anything (and with these absurd numbers, SOMETHING will die of pure buckets of dice)


Heck, fielding 5 enforcered squads is already 355 models, and its just in the 1000 point area, you got 850 points to play with...(some goes to the command suqad naturally, so lets say 750 points to play with?)




Diablix-you are doing it wrong.

You got BS2, so why take scatter lasers? take flamers or the missile thingy, and bomb away with zero care in the world that you cant aim, you simply DON'T aim.

20 will be left over from my mutant squad when it reaches you? so you hit about 36 times, assuming ALL your guns are S6 or higher, as 1 fails to wound anyway, a few more if you didnt use S6 so I got my FnP, or if you are lower than S5 and dont wound on 2, that means (with bs4) you shot at them about 48 times.
If the enemy spent 48 S6 BS4 shots on a squad I paid about 200 points for, I'd say it did her job. at the 80 on-charge attacks are bound to kill something.
The are not good because they are lethal, they are good for being dirt cheap, and throwing silly number of dice.

Okay, I see that it's pointless and we're not going anywhere. We've a different way of seeing it.
I do really hope that time will prove me wrong.

By the way do you see any possibility to build a mechanized list or at least something whose strategy is not "flood the enemy with 200 models"?

Even ignoring my opinion about their effectiveness, it is a way of playing I don't like at all. I was hoping to play something more elite or at least some tanks with the bad guys...
And I'm pretty sad right now, since it's likely we won't see it in a long long time.

From what I've gathered right now I can't see how, the lack of orders/relics totally disrupts the concept of using lots of veterans with chimeras.
While the tank commander makes an armoured company too weak, in my opinion.
Anything that I missed? Ideas?

You can kill 12-13 in a single round of bolter fire?

Amazing. because mathematically speaking, 19 bolter shots (most the tactical squad can get) should be about 7 kills on the mutants.

Your marines must be hell of a shot.


EDIT: I'm going to stop, as its obvious no matter how many mathematical examples, combo showings or examples of things they get and IG can only dream about we will post, you are going to ignore them.
Anyone else want to talk something about the list?

 BoomWolf wrote:
You can kill 12-13 in a single round of bolter fire?

Amazing. because mathematically speaking, 19 bolter shots (most the tactical squad can get) should be about 7 kills on the mutants.

Your marines must be hell of a shot.


EDIT: I'm going to stop, as its obvious no matter how many mathematical examples, combo showings or examples of things they get and IG can only dream about we will post, you are going to ignore them.
Anyone else want to talk something about the list?

It was an error I was going to correct, before I gave up with the pointless argument. I just didn't edit in time. By the way I stupidly forgot to roll to hit...
However, if you're still in the mood, in the previous post I switched to what I hope you'll consider a more constructive approach

Its is possible and viable to run a mechanised list with this codex, hell with the abundance of cheap units you can easily populate a nice variety of lists and still be able to pick and choose.

Leman Russ Squadrons - Usually I'd slap militia training on them since the tanks would be nice with the ability to shoot straight, but with the cheapest clocking in at just 110 for a front av 14 fast russ (conqueror) able to be fielded in squadrons of 3 it seems like a good win

Artillery Squadrons - Basilisks and Medusa, again cheap and cheerful even at low BS they can wreck face

Strike Squadrons - Dirt cheap griffons and wyverns, new guard tank filtered to the evil doers and so cheap its awesome.

Sentinel Squadrons - Upto 6 Sentinels in a single squad? Starting at just 20 points a piece slap on a heavy flamer.

Veteran Squads - Chimera Access, BS 3 Base, can get carapace (and bionics with hereteks). Covenant of Tzeentch means snapshooting on BS2 aswell which is lovely.

Hellhound Squadrons, Salamander Scout Squadrons, Valkerie Squadrons.

Artillery Batteries, Light Artillery Batteries, Heavy Weapon Squads (6 dirt cheap teams to hide in terrain?)

This list has a tonne of variety in it, your HQ choice letting you shape your lord of war selection but also armywide rules (My Magos giving me Decimator Access for example), adding in the flexibility of Covenants of various gods its a fantastically varied list

Arvis lighters. What to put in them? Havoks? Plaguemarines?

I think a chaos air list would be dumb as all hell, but pretty damn effective. Ulike pretty much every other army in the game, chaos has a whackload of options to play with. Hellblades/talons are some pretty baller air superiority fighters now (though the bombing rules for the talon are sort of weird. It needs some kind of multiple drop rule), fire raptors are nuts with balefire missiles and autocannons. Plague drones are extreamly durable little gunships (2+ jink). Cheap as chips arvis lighters lets you carry any troops around. And then the normal heldrakes/flying DP/GDs for good measure.

Let me start by saying I also am still waiting on my copy so please excuse me if I get something wrong.

First I would like to point out that the inclusion of the sicarn alone give CSM hope in DE and CWE match ups where their utter lack of ability to catch or kill at range the 3+ cover skimmers usually meant a very up hill game.

The biggest addition to this book is rule updates for several models and the Legacies of Ruin which has some great stuff like reroll warp dice equal to remaining HP of any malefic power cast near the vehicle...awesome.

I would also like to point out that except for against Tau I have almost never lost Be'Lakor before turn 4. You start him out of LoS behind terrain, jump him forward out of LoS behind a vehicle or central LoS blocking terrain, and then either fly him off the board or assault something turn 3. Be'Lakor only dies to greed and bad planning (and SMS...ugh), though due to these limitations he is often not worth the effort. It could be interesting to conga line massive RH units back to him and let him buff a bunch of units with a single shrouding and a leading zombie unit with invisibility, therefore a big unit of 3+/5+ cover, invisible, FnP 4+...annoying enough?, this of course making every other unit have 3+ cover saves.

I already see a number of synergistic elements to this army that are huge.

The ability to ally a bunch of artillery units to CSM and CD without having to deal with bad alliance levels is huge. This makes it much easier to play reserve based lists as artillery units are nearly extremely tough to kill turn 1. The rapier is also some of the best anti tank and AA available to Chaos, attaching a character with covenant of Tz makes this doubly true. The medusa and earthshaker are both so cheap that it is mind boggling, what a change for most chaos lists, being able to throw more firepower down range than even IG. BS is not a huge deal btw on large blast and thud guns as the initial scatter has a 1/3 chance to hit anyways. Getting more guns is always better for a blast or template weapon. Also being able to get cheap 6+ FnP on a T7 unit is pretty awesome.

T5 spawn are okay, not great, not bad. Spawn that are ObjSec and can be taken as small, fast, scoring units that can run around claiming objectives so they have to be killed are pretty awesome. They will definitely be an annoyance that is for sure. They are a lot better forward scoring option than IG gets.

The infantry platoons seem like a decent source of MSU ObjSec for most lists with the ability to make them contribute a little by getting a flamer for the unit (BS2 doesn't matter when you have a flamer and your Ld will probably never be used for a 5 model T3 unit, much more likely to just get wiped out). If you double down on them and take big units you start getting extremely good values for the upgrades and you can use different special rule to buff them up enormously, such as huron infiltrating D3 of them or if you play IC can infiltrate units then Cypher would be pretty awesome.

Veterans can get tank hunter. This can actually be a very useful addition to put on a quad gun inside a bunker. Who needs an order when you can purchase it?

I really like the plague zombies in this list. With some infiltration shenanigans and a decent CC character in the unit it could seriously hinder your opponent's movement and very possibly win you the positioning portion of the game.

Blood Slaughterers, I may be the only person who like them but I find them to be tough and more than capable of locking down the center of the board leaving you in control of the game. In an army with screening infantry to keel DSers from their rear and long range anti tank, AA, and infantry. Great.

BTW there is supposedly one special character Arkos the Faithless. Personally I am far happier with highly customizable generic characters who I can make my own special character out of.

No, I don't see a way to build a list that isn't based around "flood the table with abnormal number of models"

What's the problem? that's the ARMY.
There is no need for it to adhere to the IG mech tactics.

Even when going mech, its about spamming cheaper tanks, or lots of cheap units in lots of cheap transports.
And they got tanks, lots of tanks. every blast-based or template-based tank is even better than its IG counterpart

And you can throw some silly assault units in the mix just for kicks. you said T5 spawns are bad, but do you know how much they COST? wait till you see the list with your eyes, you will be shocked.

And you can meatshield with zombies, do the said sentinal spam (they are also VERY cheap, they come stock for less than an IG priest)

The lost and damned army is about numbers, not quality. and it's perfectly fine that it is.

CSM covers the "elite" guys, daemons are the daemons, LaD are the "hordes of chaos"
It may not be your flavor of an army, but it is an army, it is THIS army, and its a unique, stand-alone army.
And an army that is good at doing it's thing. because it can spam cheap annoying buggers in a way that makes IG, orks and nids drop jaws.

Hilariously, you could stick horrors+heralds in chimeras for witchfire dakkabus shinnanigins.

Also, the elite human approach is -sort- of viable, with Bloody Handed Reaver demagogue giving you cheap Storm-Trooper equivalents (10 of them is 100pts), which can be further upgraded with deepstrike, scout, tankhunters, and the usual chaos-covnenant goodies (fleet, 6+fnp). Objectivly, theyre much more versatile than scions, aside from the orders.

I think we need to see a 1850 list with CSM allies to appreciate all these comments ...

 McGibs wrote:
Hilariously, you could stick horrors+heralds in chimeras for witchfire dakkabus shinnanigins.

Also, the elite human approach is -sort- of viable, with Bloody Handed Reaver demagogue giving you cheap Storm-Trooper equivalents (10 of them is 100pts), which can be further upgraded with deepstrike, scout, tankhunters, and the usual chaos-covnenant goodies (fleet, 6+fnp). Objectivly, theyre much more versatile than scions, aside from the orders.

120 Points for the 10 of them, since you'll want carapace and the grenadier upgrade to be the Storm-trooper Equivalent
In taking carapace you now can no longer take deepstrike, scout, or tank hunters etc.

Its still a good unit, but costs more than stated and has less options.

I'm also curious as to why Furious Charge costs so much on a veteran squad, a single attack guardsmen really benefits more from carapace, scout, deepstrike etc all of which are cheaper. Especially in a unit where the only power weapon is on the champion

 McGibs wrote:
Hilariously, you could stick horrors+heralds in chimeras for witchfire dakkabus shinnanigins.

Also, the elite human approach is -sort- of viable, with Bloody Handed Reaver demagogue giving you cheap Storm-Trooper equivalents (10 of them is 100pts), which can be further upgraded with deepstrike, scout, tankhunters, and the usual chaos-covnenant goodies (fleet, 6+fnp). Objectivly, theyre much more versatile than scions, aside from the orders.

I was thinking about Noise Marines with full sonics riding round in that Chimera. Expensive way to ruin someone's day.

My bad, I misread that carapace came with the upgrade. sucks they cant take carapace and another doctrine.

The furious charge cost is weirdly high, though the vets come with WS4 stock, and 2 attacks (pistol/ccw). I guess theoretically, a squad of 10 could be made into an assault squad with furious charge, two flamers, and khorne covenant. It's not efficient, but, hey... its an option.

Carapace is under "may take one of the following" section which includes the tank hunter etc options

^durr, I herped again.

So I took some time to math out the probability of getting certain Ld with the tools renegades have at their disposal since kept hearing people complaining about their random Ld and figured I'd post it here too.

Just the Vox-caster reroll is easy as its the same probability for rerolling to hit and such. so Ld10 is 30.5%, 9 or higher Ld is 55.56%, 8 or higher 75% meaning that this 5pt upgrade gives a 75% of having LD at least as good as an IG sergeant. The odds of having 5-6 LD is only 11%.

Just the Fanatic rule alone has the same odds as well but it also doesn't put you in quandries of having to decide if you want to reroll a 3 or 4 to get a higher Ld so is inherently better. Is also is a fairly accessible rule because you can get a Demagogue in each platoon and you have your arch-demagogue too.

If you add them together then it compounds your success. So Ld10 is a 51.7% probability, 9+Ld is 80.2% and 8+Ld is 91.67%.

If you went on and added an Enforcer who gives +1Ld to his unit it bumps up each probability bracket by 1. So with just Vox or Fanatic by itself you have 55.56% for Ld10, 75% for Ld9 and so on. This means that with both you have a 80.2% chance at having Ld10 and 91.% at Ld9+. That is awesome. Plus Enforcer lets you reroll failed morale too (in the same way a commissar does of course).

Not to mention the chaos sigil's autopass once a turn. Basically with the sigil and one of the tools from above you should easily expect to have a Ld good enough to pass a morale check from shooting and then you can just use the sigil for if you get in combat.

Ld really seems quite manageable.

The guyz have less problems with ld than orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From what i read here, the army could be decent with lots of cheapo infantry and vehicles. Some nice tricks and a freaking mass of bodies.

The guy complains about conscripts with ccw?.. Man, my grots cost the same and are s2 t2, ini2, have no ccw and armor but are still worh fielding.

Ld is not "manageable", its erratic, but if you focus on it enough you get nearly fearless stats with all the bonuses, rerolls and autopasses you can stack on each other.

An 80% to score an LD10 mutant rabble that can reroll for an execution and autopass once per turn is not running away anytime soon.

Do we have any info on renegade ogryns? I have ordered my copy but still waiting. Post office in greece rocks... I ve heard about some upgrades they can have such as 4+ save, fnp from nurgle. I guess the power drill is a power weapon? Ap? What is the unit size? And the hounds are they as in the vraks version? I was trying to think them as allies for my CD or CSM with the mutant overlord plus a big unit of ogryns. Maybe with cypher for shrouded plus infiltrate goodness. What's your opinion of them?

Ogryn Brutes are expensive to my mine, clocking at 3 renegade sentinels for a single Ogryn

Can get Flak (5+) or Carapace (4+), packmaster can take chaos hounds which are reasonable (2 wounds a piece) and cost half a chaos ogryn each. Access to all 3 dedications for the squad though reasonably Tzeentch aint great for em.

One per unit can get lascutter or breacher drill.

3 Wounds a piece and fearless isnt anything to sniff at really. No ranged weaponry what so ever (frag grenade if you count that)

Issue with carapace upgrade is that its better value the more ogryns you have, but Ogryns cost so much it's unlikely to see much use.

Edit:

My mistake Tzeentch for ogryns gives them another CC weapon and soulblaze on their attacks, quite useful)

And their unit size? 5? Do you know what the breacher drill does?

Unit size can be up to 10, plus 6 dogs, but thats ungodly expensive. (with upgrades, they each cost more than a chimera)

Annoyingly, the breacher-drill and laser cutter arent listed (rules in one of the other books), but I think theyre something dumb like 1 unwieldly str10-ap1 attack at WS1. Not worth it.

Str 9, AP2, Unwieldy, Cumbersome for the Lascutter. (Single attack, WS1)

(Found the rules in forgeworlds Tyrant Legion PDF)

Just saw some of the legacies that you can get for vehicles and the Perdus Rift Anomaly definitely stands out: Preferred Enemy(Tau) and a reroll to seize seems pretty sweet. I'd slap it on a Sicaran for sure. Any CSM characters that give pluses to seize? I can't think of any at the moment to combine this with.

Yea, that one had me a bit bummered, CSM are going to be having PE tau tanks running around starting now....


Not sure if the legac is worth the actual cost though, PE is rather specific and rerolling seize does not in fact matter all that often (It makes a difference in 5/72 games.)

Yeah it just seemed cool if I could fit one in with my Daemons as I reeealllly want to go first against Tau in order to put up all the buffs I need. It's just PE(tau) for the one tank though right? not a huge deal. Although it could also be cool on a Fire Raptor. That's why I was wondering about any way to bump that up to a 5+ but I can't think of any. that would make it a lot more of a viable strategy.

Its still just a 30% to steal. not a strategy to build on.
Just not sure if its worth that 20 points just to counter tau a bit.
(and with tau's focal fire strategies, it will just be the first tank to be nuked)




I wonder how long till we start seeing heretic battle reports?

I've been looking at the book and have a few questions about the renegades make up.

1) Under the devotions descriptions it says "Demagogues" from the "command squad" may take a devotion. Are we to assume Demagogue means Arch-Demagogue? It is somewhat confusing because platoon command squads come with a Demagogue. I think its referring to Arch-Demagogue as that makes the most sense.

2) In the same paragraph it says any demagogue taking the devotion will automatically be the armies warlord. What if you take an allied renegades force? Does this override the general rule that your warlord must be from your primary detachment? On a side note I find it funny that it still references Ld values for determining warlords even though 7th did away with that and surely they knew this book wouldn't be out until after 7th.

3) Renegade Infantry Platoons it is said are made up of 3-5 Infantry Squads. It says they are treated as one force org choice and arrive from reserves on a single roll, but there's no such rule like 'combined squads' that AM have. So there's nothing saying you can blob them together like AM platoons do. It seems like this was the intention to allow blob squads but maybe not and its just to allow you to take more than six squads in a single force org. Can they blob or no?

4) Points costs for adding extra men to a squad seem kinda wonky for some units. I noticed Disciples and Veterans cost 35 for the first 5 (7pts per) but 10 per to add more. Is this to encourage MSU? Its not a huge difference but I don't really see the point.

EDIT:

5) Salamanders are listed as BS3 but they can pay 10 pts "increase BS to 3" should the original be BS2 or the upgrade be BS4? Does this thing have a model or is it just a chimera without lasgun arrays?

I've noticed a few little typos and errors as well, but I think its pretty safe to assume the intentions.

1) Yeah, the Arch-Demagogue
2) I'd say your primary detachment takes precedence. Its like having Abbadon (who MUST be your warlord), but if he's an ally, he's just along for the ride.
3) It means you keep the entire 3-5 squads in reserve, and you make 1 reserve roll to bring them on. Once theyre on the board, theyre treated as different units. Blobbing them up definitly wasnt the intention, as the old IG codex had a simmilar rule for platoons (in reserves, theyre essentially one unit)
4) Forgeworld has a (good) habit of playing with point costs, which GWproper could learn a thing or two from. Some units have higher or lower base costs than individual models to reflect some sort of general strategy. In this case, its probably to incentivize players to max out thier FOC before building up squads.

5)I'd assume Salamander BS is a copy-paste typo. They should be stock 2, like everything else with militia training. Though theyre also listed as BS3 in the reference at the back. In either case, militia training only gives BS3 (not +1BS), so they wouldnt get BS4.

So I think I might pick up this book, been wanting to make a renegade army force witha bunch of troops and a ton of artillery for a loooong time. Quick question, do the renegade army guys still come with a lasgun as well as a pistol and cc weapon?

I have 30 guardsmen that were going to be part of my imperial army for when FW finally get round to doing it for the horus heresy and was going to get some more with alternative gas mask heads but if they don't come with lasguns in this list they'll drive me insane all carrying them, WYSIWYG has corrupted me and I can no longer use my imagination...

Th0a wrote:
So I think I might pick up this book, been wanting to make a renegade army force witha bunch of troops and a ton of artillery for a loooong time. Quick question, do the renegade army guys still come with a lasgun as well as a pistol and cc weapon?

Generally (with some exceptions, like plague zombies) they have access to lasgun, autogan and shotguns (with the book literally saying in the wargear options "autoguns, lasguns or shotguns") which most of the times can be swapped freely with laspistols/autopistols+ccw and vice versa.

I've had a 1500 game vs renegades recently.

The enemy brought:
Demagogue with a MoT
Chaos Lord in terminator armor

3*3 Spawns
Platoon with 2 AC and 4 meltas
2 chimeras with melta-guyz inside
A small squad of mutant rebels

Plazma tank with non-overheating blasts and heavy bolters
2*3 rapiers
A squadron of 2 wyverns

My list was:
Huron
Cypher
2 squads of 20 slaanesh marines with 2 meltas, icon and combi-melta - lc - meltabomb champs
A squad of 10 chosen with 2 meltas + melta bomb on sarge from cypher formation
5 csm with a plazma + combi-plazma in a rhino

I was lucky and got the 1-st turn, Huron rolled infiltrate for 2 units, so, basically everything except a rhino had infiltrate.
It was DoW deployment and the enemy spread his forces across the whole board. And i've chosen only 1 flank to attack. On the 2-d turn the flank got overwhelmed and he also lost a Chaos Lord to a lucky melta shot. He surrendered after the 2-d turn. He made deployment mistakes, underestimated 3+ and fnp durability and mellee capabilities of bp+ccw chosen - charged them with 3 spawns and got murderized before striking thus granting me a free consolidation move towards his wiverns and leaving no bauble wrap in the way.

All in all:
Wyverns - great as usual. Even better than ig counterparts cause cheaper and bs doesn't matter there. Auto-include.

Rapiers - he didn't have a chance to fully test them cause i had only 1 vehicle and it was hidden from them. But with their stats - s9 ordnance - they're gona totally wreck armor. And they're relatively cheap - so, auto-include for at duty.

Plazma-tank - nice vehicle but s7 small blasts are just not scary. Mediocre choice all in all just cause you don't kill much stuff with small blasts. And it costs quite some ammount of points. I mean, i run KMK as an ork - they're s8 ap2 with ability to reroll scatter. But i find myself using them as chaff more often than killing something important.

Platoons really lack priests to be decent in mellee and orders to be deadly at range. So, they're clearly a bauble wrap there.

MoT Demagogue is handy and troop spawns are wonderful. Though, be mindful, they're not nearly as durable as MoN t6 spawns.

Did IA13 fix up the Chaos Spartan Assault Tank? If so I'd like the rules for it.

I think the Spartan is unchanged.

Diablix wrote:

Th0a wrote:
So I think I might pick up this book, been wanting to make a renegade army force witha bunch of troops and a ton of artillery for a loooong time. Quick question, do the renegade army guys still come with a lasgun as well as a pistol and cc weapon?

Generally (with some exceptions, like plague zombies) they have access to lasgun, autogan and shotguns (with the book literally saying in the wargear options "autoguns, lasguns or shotguns") which most of the times can be swapped freely with laspistols/autopistols+ccw and vice versa.

Yeah. You can make riflemen, but it (naturally) costs you your pistol to take it.

Leadership is.... so so.

I've now got the book, and I can see there are so many ways to amp up leadership that it's not a massive concern most of the time. Master-Voxes, the Fanatic rule, Enforcers, etc means that if you want to, your entire army will be Ld9-10 unless you really, really suck at rolling dice.

That makes your army functionally immune to morale checks from shooting, fear tests, pinning tests, and Ld-based witchfire attacks.

However, a basic blade-armed marine scout squad charging an absolutely full strength (I mean 'Master of Hordes' full strength) Renegade Infantry Squad will murder enough of them to leave you needing a double 1 to hold your ground, and that's not exactly a top-tier - or even second tier - assault unit.

It's more like Death Korps: shooting is fine, melee is instant death.

Obviously units like ogryns and marauders are more able to hold their own.

The sheer amount of cheap artillery is amusing as hell, but it's the 'tons of dudes' list that makes me giggle with stupid ideas. Four hundred respawning renegade infantry in a continuous tidal wave strikes me as funny.

Curious question, how do you actually unlock Spawn as an elite choice, I can't find any options which allow me to do so. I know the mutant Arch-Demagogue allows them as troops, and the Covenant of Tzeentch does so too, but I can't find the one which makes them elite.


I'm part way through playing a game right now. 100 men for 400 points? It's sheer awesomeness, mind you, half of them are zombies.

But I do like having five squads of ten men with grenade launchers, I really feel as though I will drown my foe in bodies.

The Sigil of Chaos allows you to ignore a failed moral check once per game turn. So at least for the first round of combat per turn, you can just ignore being swept. If by the second round youre still getting trounced by a difference of 9 kills, then its probably something that will have already obliterated the squad anyways.

Also, aside from mutant rabble hoards (who should probably be invested with a fearless leader), I feel this army does hoards as many-squads, not as giant-squads. Losing 15-20 infantry from being swept isnt a big deal when youve got four more of them right behind.

What are our answers to fighting big things like Imperial Knights and Wraithknights?

10 Vets with 2 Meltaguns, a Chimera, and the Scout rule seems solid for killing vehicles but not good enough to fight those units unless in mass. Maybe a huge mass of melta guns walking around the table will ensure enough guns get to shot at the big stuff that they will be over whelmed.

Massed infantry with meltaguns can do a pretty nice number on knights.

Bringing them down with stand-off fire is possible - rapier batteries or leman russ vanquishers can do it, but will need a lot of guns and militia training is a must.

There's something to be said for a wall of zombies. They'll stomp them flat pretty quickly but killing forty zombies takes ages even for a superheavy walker.

Remember that as a walker he can't tank shock his way through; he has to stop and chop apart each squad you throw in his way.

Didn't register that the Chaos Sigil was an option for regular renegade units. That does make a difference!
Also, the wall of martyrs is probably a good idea; it's more expensive than a regular aegis line, but in addition to being double-sided (giving some protection from overshooting mortar and whirlwind fire) they also make the defending unit Stubborn. Now stubborn with a good leadership is going to hold its ground, despite casualties.

Buying a wall of martyrs defence network, and stocking the bunkers with fire support squads, gun pits with rapiers, etc, etc could give you a decent solid defence line to hide your massed disposable minions behind. More importantly, Firestorm redoubts with escape hatches will let you 'compress' a big infantry unit and get essentially a free move out of your deployment zone to get your headlong bayonet charge as far up the field as possible....



Of course, the other problem with massed infantry armies is space. I've played a tyranid army with 90 termagants starting on the board plus spawnlings and they get in each other's way like nobody's business. I can barely imagine fitting a couple of hundred infantry in a deployment zone, let alone the 300-400 troops that a renegade army can easily field!

Lots and Lots of basilisks/earthshakers?

S9 ordenance has a very decent chance to pen a knight, and being blasts, you care little for crappy BS.
And a large blast will not miss a godamn knight often.

Militia trained annialator lemons?

Honestly I don't have great ideas here. renegades are the horde to end all hordes, but they have a slight problem taking down AV targets.

Reading this thread i've just decided to invest in the book. I thought DKOK was good but it seems you can do DKOK for cheaper, whilst countering their maneuverability weakness with things like spawn and the flying transport (plus CSM allies/Deamons).

If it costs 40pts for a BS3 squad, and assuming plasma is 15pts, mass 70pt squads also counters the MC weakness.

Quick question: Is the flying transport a DT or in a slot? Because dropping off plasma/melta armed plague marines/havocs/chosen would be uber awesome.

Also what is your opinion on the legacies compared to IA:2? Anything remotely similar to Mars, Keylek, Murder and Phall?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where did you guys get it from - I sure as hell can't find it on the FW site!

The arvis is DT for marauders, but is a 1-3 models (not squadded) per fast attack slot. So its pretty easy to fit a lot of them in.

Some of the legacies are pretty interesting, but mostly from a fluffy perspective, or need a list built around. The fact that they cant be put on daemon/possesed vehicles really limits the options to basically sicarans, and landraiders/spartans (and I guess flyers). Nothing as crazy as the IA2 ones though, no real auto-takes.
My favorite is one that basically turns the vehicle into a new objective (enemy can get a VP for killing it, or owner can get D3 VPs for keeping it alive). For 10pts, I think that's fun as hell.
Other standouts can give khorne units with icons FNP, or another can boost khorne daemon saves +1 (lots of khorne things, yay!). Another makes nearby cultists fearless (but renegades are now oodles better than cultists). Another allows maelific power rerolls equal to the number of hullpoints left. Most of the others are pretty speficic preferred enemey/hatred vs X.

Cheers for that!

Poly Ranger wrote:


If it costs 40pts for a BS3 squad, and assuming plasma is 15pts, mass 70pt squads also counters the MC weakness.

Cant do that, the 30 pt squad is a platoon unit, they cant take the BS3 upgrade.

The grenadiers are a 50 point squad with BS4 and hotshot guns but they start as 5 and they can only have a special for every 5.

Don't go looking for anti-tank in the troop section, other than grenadiers they are all "more dice, more wounds" style units. and the grenadiers are watered down scions. you got zero quality units there.

Ah - I will have to get the book before I can contribute even slightly. It's difficult to piece it all together but sounds awesome so far!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where again can I find it please? Got a link by any chance?

Its not available at the moment. it sold out pretty much instantly
Wait for another print run, it should be soon enough.

There is also a battlescribe list, but it will give you onlt a general idea for costs without covering what the rules actually DO. (it just lists page numbers of most rules, and not actually write them.)
Enough for a general clue, but not perfect.




Also, when I took another look it seems I missed something.

There are simple veterans between platoons and grenadiers. mere BS3, but at 35 pt. per squad of 5, its not bad.
Still 1 special gun per 5 guys though.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


If it costs 40pts for a BS3 squad, and assuming plasma is 15pts, mass 70pt squads also counters the MC weakness.

Cant do that, the 30 pt squad is a platoon unit, they cant take the BS3 upgrade.

The grenadiers are a 50 point squad with BS4 and hotshot guns but they start as 5 and they can only have a special for every 5.

Don't go looking for anti-tank in the troop section, other than grenadiers they are all "more dice, more wounds" style units. and the grenadiers are watered down scions. you got zero quality units there.

The infantry unit from the platoon can totally get militia training

They do?
Than my memory is betraying me.

Pretty much anything with BS2 can be upgraded to BS3. The only thing that dont get it, are thing already with BS3 (vets, mauraders), or BS4 (disciples)

With master of the hoard, you could fit 6 plasmaguns into a 30man squad for about 200pts (then theyd recycle on a 5+).

Yea, so considering that...why ever go for vets? seems wasteful.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yea, so considering that...why ever go for vets? seems wasteful.

Cheap min troop squad (since you don't need to buy 3 whole squads to fulfill a troop choice)
Comes with krak, 5+ armor, and militia training already
Gets access to cool rules like scout or deep strike

Frankly 10 Vets with 2 meltas/plasmas in a base chimera with Scout is pretty good in a mech list.

I mentioned a few pages back, vets, disciples, and marauders have sort of weird roles.

Vets I think would work best as MSU squads with rules like outflank or deepstrike. Theyre no IG vets, but they do have some interesting uses.

So what can go above 10 in a single unit? Just mutants? Or are the normal 30pt squads not capped at 10?

Scouts particularly the thing I noticed about that for Veterans that seems like it'd be a good choice.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So what can go above 10 in a single unit? Just mutants? Or are the normal 30pt squads not capped at 10?

Infantry squads can go up to 20 normally or up to 30 with Master of the Hoard (and you get 3-5 squads in a single troop slot)

Ah cheers! I'm beginning to get a better understanding of what you are all saying with each post every one makes.

Also thank you BoomWolf for letting me know its sold out - you saved me a long pointless internet search!

This is the 1850 hoard list I'm thinking of running

Arch Demagogue
+ Master of the Hoard
+ Covenant of Khorne
+ Power Axe
+ Melta Bombs
w/ 4 Disciples
+ Lascannon
5 Enforcers
+ Power Axe
+ Melta Bombs
+ Combat Drugs

Infantry Platoon
30 Infantry Command
+ Militia Training
+ Krak Grenades
+ 5 Meltaguns
+ Chaos Sigil
w/ Demagogue
+ Melta bomb
+ Khorne Covenant
30 Infantry
+ Militia Training
+ Krak Grenades
+ 5 Meltaguns
+ Chaos Sigil
w/ Champion
+ Melta bomb
+ Khorne Covenant
30 Infantry
+ Militia Training
+ Krak Grenades
+ 5 Meltaguns
+ Chaos Sigil
w/ Champion
+ Melta bomb

Infantry Platoon
30 Infantry Command
+ Militia Training
+ Krak Grenades
+ 5 Meltaguns
+ Chaos Sigil
w/ Demagogue
+ Melta bomb
+ Khorne Covenant
30 Infantry
+ Militia Training
+ Krak Grenades
+ 5 Meltaguns
+ Chaos Sigil
w/ Champion
+ Melta bomb
+ Khorne Covenant
30 Infantry
+ Militia Training
+ Krak Grenades
+ 5 Meltaguns
+ Chaos Sigil
w/ Champion
+ Melta bomb
+ Khorne Covenant

3 Laser Rapier Destroyers
+ Militia Training
+ 1 Crewmen
3 Laser Rapier Destroyers
+ Militia Training
+ 2 Crewmen
3 Earthshaker Artillery


Arch-Demagogue joins the squad without a covenant.

"We shall drown them in blood, our blood, but they'll drown."


Aaaanyway. zombies can also be over 10, they can be 50 IIRC, but you can only have one team and only if you go nurgle.


Also, artillery carriage. with extra crew members you can reach 24 crew and 3 guns. more than enough to gain a shot of reinforcements (if they EVER chew through the number of virtual T7 dudes. the current artillery rules are absurd!)
Crown, consider them for your list. even when not maxed out they are incredibly useful.
Honestly, this requires a dedicated answer X_X

Just realized just how absurd are the rapiers too, they sure AR the answer to any and all armor. even knights on front are going down.
If only they came in bigger squads...

Master of Hoards only reinforces Infantry Squads

Guys - check out the massive potential cheese that can come out of this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/620899.page
That seems mighty broken when you can reliably throw a couple of greater deamons at your opponent a turn. As well as summoning 2 more units...

I'm thinking about some renegades as allies to my csm, I noticed that rogue psyker covens and enforcer cadres -- HQ choices -- state they can't be warlords, but it doesn't say that they are non-compulsory. So it seems they still fill the HQ requirement for an allied detachment or CAD? That'd be nice since the Arch-Demagogue's Master of Renegades rule is limited to only those as a Primary Detachment Warlord.

It will appear so, yes.
Not having the book right here, so can't check it, but I don't remember anything saying you HAVE to have a command squad.

Under the assumption you still allow thevarks ICs too, you get Arkos, Necrosis and Zuphor too. though FW removed their rules, so that's iffy at best.

Demagogue command squads are 1+ (as opposed to 0-1 or whatever), meaning you NEED to have a demagogue. He is your compulsory HQ. Which makes sense. He's da boss. Your heretic rabble isnt going to follow a bunch of guttertrash witches who can barely string two words together theyre so crazy.

Ah thanks McGibs, I didn't see that 1+ up in the corner

ugh, I want this book! is there any chance of a "Normal" edition being released?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
ugh, I want this book! is there any chance of a "Normal" edition being released?

Its not about "if" but "when"

Normal version is up on FW site, 45 GBP.

Yeah that limited edition was definitely worth it then for that little difference.

Building a unit of mutant rabble, can't decide if power weapons are worth it on the champion or not, keeping in mind the unit might also have an enforcer, an arch-demagogue and a chaos lord so challenges shouldn't be a problem. This whole 'horde of weaklings' approach to melee is so alien, maybe someone who's experienced with guard style combat blobs can offer advice, I was leaning towards power axes on the lot of them, maybe fist claw on the lord.

"Horde of weakling" approach says that you will wound someone even if he has a 2+ save and you wound on 6's, if you got 36 hits.

So in mutants case, you wound your common T4 target on a 5, and he fails save on a 1-2, after hitting on 5s (wont always be that bad)
So if you throw 27 attacks, you get 9 hits, who deal 3 wounds, and one goes through.
So when say 30 of your pistol/CCW mutants are attacking, you are looking at 90 such dice.
When an enforcer with a drug is pushing them, its 120 attacks.
With a covenant of khorne champion, these attacks are no longer meaningless, than you may get some nice boon from the mutation.


The rule of numbers is simple-when you got alot of dudes, every tiny buff becomes massive. them 20 points you invested to turn your mutant to a khorne champion and 35 points in the drug enforcer turned a simple "I got alot of dice" play, to "I got alot more, and more meaningful dice" play.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I know that a whole lot of poor attacks can soon add up, just look at all the comics referencing lasguns. I was only really asking with regard to whether power weapons were worth the outlay or not on weak platforms like unarmoured guardsmen equivalents.

I figure if I give the mutant champion a covenant of slaanesh, the arch-demagogue a covenant of khorne and the chaos lord mark of nurgle with blight grenades and the enforcer combat drugs that means everyone has rage, fleet, defensive grenades and rerolls on round 1. Still leaves room for maulerfiends, blood slaughterers and other things moving up the field too.

Think I've answered my own question on the power weapons, when there's that many buffs flying around even if I lose one to a challenge the others are all going to be swinging away unimpeded.

Can the entire renegade command squad join another unit or does the arch demagogue have to detach from the command squad to do so?

In other words does the independent character rule apply to the entire squad or just the arch demagogue.

Only the Arch demagogue has the IC rule. Kinda weird for the disciple he leaves behind since they can only have 1 special and/or 1 heavy and are capped at 14 dudes. Not really enough to have any purpose other than hidden scoring or potshots with a single heavy.

So meaning my Arch Demagogue can just leave his disciples behind and join any other squad?

Can he or she do that before the start of the game?

It works exactly like any other IC

Hm, I was looking for a way to add in good fire support to my new Daemons, this might just be the ticket. Battle Brother'd Leman Russ with 2-3 Flying Daemon Princes seems pretty strong on the table.

 CrownAxe wrote:
It works exactly like any other IC

No other IC i have used has ever started already as part of a squad so no I dont know how you can say that.

 Opera wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It works exactly like any other IC

No other IC i have used has ever started already as part of a squad so no I dont know how you can say that.

What makes you think the Arch-demagogue does start as part of a squad?

 McGibs wrote:

You thought DKOK had artillery. You aint seen nothin.

The Siege list can still put out more templates because their Thudds and Heavy Mortars are in elites, sure they're more expensive, but you don't have to make a choice if you have the points.

Yea, but renegades pull them cheaper, and additional FOCs are not exactly expensive.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Opera wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It works exactly like any other IC

No other IC i have used has ever started already as part of a squad so no I dont know how you can say that.

What makes you think the Arch-demagogue does start as part of a squad?

The HQ choice is Renegade Command Squad and consists of 1 Arch-Demagogue and 4 Disciples. The Arch-Demagogue has the Independent Character special rule.

Requizen wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Opera wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It works exactly like any other IC

No other IC i have used has ever started already as part of a squad so no I dont know how you can say that.

What makes you think the Arch-demagogue does start as part of a squad?

The HQ choice is Renegade Command Squad and consists of 1 Arch-Demagogue and 4 Disciples. The Arch-Demagogue has the Independent Character special rule.

And both are, as far as I can tell, one unit - so are deployed together.

Here's a question: can a Renegade army ally with a second one, or otherwise be joined as part of multiple CADs?

I am interested in knowing whether or not it's possible to field a force that includes 2 demagogues with different devotions (without starting an argument over language).

Ally? no.

Multiple CAD? nothing ever prevents that, but you will not get an unlocking arch-demagogues in a CAD that does not have your warlord, they unlocks only happen to a warlord one.

So now that its been out a while anyone found anything fun?

After an apoc game on sunday where there were two guard players on the other side I'm back on writing a list as they were basically made of artillery.

The renegade strike battery where we find the wyvern for 10 points cheaper also gives the option of combining in griffons. Would it be worth throwing two of these in with a squad of three wyverns, both as cheap hulls for the squad and for when there's nothing for the wyverns to shoot at for a chance at glancing transports down faster. The fact that they're a whopping 40 points cheaper than the loyalist version makes me think there must surely be some purpose for them.

Some of the artillery pieces of the heretics are so cheap is feels almost criminal.

Say what you want about griffon preformace, at THAT cost? its bound to at least threaten its points back.

The real MVPs though are probably the ordnance battery.
Just spamming these super cheap pie plate krak missiles. who cares about aim when you can shoot THAT many?


Basically, every single template or blast unit it the list is fantastic.
And when you pile them up on top of each other is creates a great feel of "everything is going to hell" with the explosions hitting everywhere.

Also a fan of the rapiers, a squadron of three gives you ordnance AP1 twin linked lascannons with T7 and a 3+ save for just over 25 points cheaper than a heavy weapons squad with three normal lascannons.

I just wasn't sure about combining the griffons with wyverns but I'm packing out heavy support as it is, could always try two CAD's and take some of the cheaper troops choices to squeeze in more goodness.

Does anyone know of a way to get use out of the psykers?

rama1229 wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get use out of the psykers?

WCs to deny the witch with. That it because they don't have any good powers and can't join units.

I just got this book and I'm so happy with it that it more than makes up for my dissatisfaction with the current CSM dex.
I'm planning on primarily using it in combination with my Death Guard CSMs. My concept is a Nurgle devoted renegades army calling in Plague Marines in Dreadclaws for support. I'll probably take the Arch-Heretic Revolutionary for access to more Enforcers, but reviews of this list say it's a bad option. Can anyone explain why? The infantry in the list isn't going to storm and take anything, really. It's all tar pit type stuff. Wouldn't the inclusion of Enforcers be the BEST option because of their ability to defeat characters, boost Ld and force re-rolls on failed moral and pinning?

Its a "bad option" because you don't really need the extra enforcers.
5 of them is plenty. most of your squads are not worth the bother, as they will be cannon fodder will be decimated with ease either way.
There is very little actual need for enforcers. why pay 25 points to get your 10 guys that +1 ld, when you can pay 30 points to just get 10 more guys?
If the squad isn't huge-adding another squad is just a better option.

Compared to the other options, its just not that great. especially master of the horde, hertek magus or reaver-each granting subsential power ups to their own unique playstyles.

Arch-Heratic is useful in that it is basically Zealot for 15 points (since of the other 10 goes towards your mandatory covenant). The enforcer bonus isn't good but zealot is super good.

After playing around with the list for a bit I have made a few discoveries and decisions.

1) I really need more sentinels. The price for lascannon and autocannon sentinels is incredibly cheap for the durability and firepower they bring. Even after being upgraded to BS3 they are still a very good value. I need to buy more...which will look like empire strike back.
2) Most of the HS slot is fantastic. The top contenders in my estimation are the heavy artillery carriages, thudd guns, and wyverns. After that the rapiers and griffon are both excellent. The rest of the options are good but much more specific in use and setup.
3) Chaos Sigil is a great option if you want a unit to stick around. I am hesitant to put it on an unupgraded unit of 10 but anything more costly really should get one. Unless of course you have Ld buffs you are already taking.
4) vox net is very useful to help your artillery to not run away. The command squad is mostly useless anyways so you can put them on a quad gun in a bunker or behind an ADL and let them buff the Ld of the artillery. Very useful.
5) If I don't take an ally to handle forward scoring for me I will end up taking 3-4 units of spawn and thus my demagogue is already chosen. Nothing else in the list can compare to a few units of spawn for usefulness in both scoring and melee. Everything else is just too slow.
6) A unit or two of Chosen/CSM in dreadclaws can make for some excellent forward scoring to add to a renegades list. So can the addition of A) Nurglings and a GUO, B) 4 Tz heralds, pink horror unit or two, and a unit of ~5 screamers, or C) 2 Khorne jugger heralds (one with grimoire), hounds, and nurglings (or bloodletters to be themed). I have not been happy with forward scoring unless I take one of these allies.
7) large infantry blobbs are fun but mostly not very useful for winning games. We just don't have the easy access to buffs we can hide in the infantry units that the imperials do. Once you start fielding 200+ models the board becomes so crowded the initial barrage kills 50+ of your models. These lists are fun but very hard to actually win against many of the more popular lists. It is however super fun to throw 200+ bodies at the opponent, sometimes with the units coming back.
8) Fortifications are very useful. The tank traps have started becoming one of my favorites to block access to objectives for knights and waveserpents.

I have seen a couple sentinel heavy lists and found them wanting. They are still sentinels and go down.

If the arch-dema is a mutant and he leaves his unit to join another, what happens to the curse of mutation?

 techsoldaten wrote:
I have seen a couple sentinel heavy lists and found them wanting. They are still sentinels and go down.

They cost 20 points a piece, 120 for a full team.
Its cheaper than a tactical squad. and as much as they "go down" they don't go does quite as easy as basic infantry.

Ok, I get why Arch-Heretic Revolutionary is kind of a waste.

Being a Nurgle army, I'm having a good look at Heretic Magus. Toughness 4, 3+ armor and FNP 6+ sounds like a Nurgle army leader. Also it gets me the FNP 6+ for half the price of a Nurgle Covenant in some units.

When running Renegades and CSM together, is there any use in putting CSM units in the Valkyrie?

Pros: More transport capacity than the Dreadclaw, doesn't compete with great FA choices for units that can't take dedicated claws, doesn't need to hover for a turn when coming in from reserves.

Cons:
More expensive

GrafWattenburg wrote:
When running Renegades and CSM together, is there any use in putting CSM units in the Valkyrie?

Pros: More transport capacity than the Dreadclaw, doesn't compete with great FA choices for units that can't take dedicated claws, doesn't need to hover for a turn when coming in from reserves.

Cons:
More expensive

Surely the real advantage here is with the Arvus?

3 in one FA slot, delivers a unit of flying CSM and then gets killed, and all for a pretty cheap price tag.

Hi,
after playing some games with my recently painted renegades, I absolutely agree - mass infantry is a good way to win games (at least in my local Meta). Most players don't have builds to handle so many cheap bodies. I usually use a Baneblade making my units zealot

Double posted the same picture

 ArbitorIan wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
When running Renegades and CSM together, is there any use in putting CSM units in the Valkyrie?

Pros: More transport capacity than the Dreadclaw, doesn't compete with great FA choices for units that can't take dedicated claws, doesn't need to hover for a turn when coming in from reserves.

Cons:
More expensive

Surely the real advantage here is with the Arvus?

3 in one FA slot, delivers a unit of flying CSM and then gets killed, and all for a pretty cheap price tag.

I have looked at it! It's the closest we get point-wise to a regular drop pod, with the added bonus of being able to fly around. Downside is that it can't really hurt stuff and has really bad armour. It's also a more expenive model in terms of money. But the idea of some mean-looking Chaos Marines jumping out of the goofy looking Arvus is definitely appealing

gba01 wrote:
Hi,
after playing some games with my recently painted renegades, I absolutely agree - mass infantry is a good way to win games (at least in my local Meta). Most players don't have builds to handle so many cheap bodies. I usually use a Baneblade making my units zealot

Lovely army - are those 30-man units? If so, how are you fielding it? As a platoon per blob or as a squad per blob (I thought infantry only went up to 20?)

Your warlord has to take the devotion "Master of the Horde", so you can take 30 man squads and when a platoon is eliminated on a Roll of 5+ the Unit comes back in play.

What sort of weapon loadouts are you taking, looks like flamers and grenade launchers are your only weapons aside from the baneblade and earthshakers?

,Im going to give the mutant horde a try. 50 man units appeal, piling on the buffs. Enforcer and champion with power axe/ melta , chaos lord helping, chaos covenant, two with the demagogue.. baneblade rolling behind for fearless and hatred. Rage as well.. all makes sense to me. Best use of allies is what im struggling with

It's a shame that this FW book makes the CSM codex the codex that it should be.


I just love having a massive swarm of zombies without having Typhus, they are brilliant for objective holding and are very cheap. Plus the heavy support is brilliant and goes well with obliterators.

My actual list:
+ HQ +

Renegade Command Squad [4x Disciple w/ Shotgun, Flak Armour]
····Arch Demagogue [Covenant of Tzeentch, Flak Armour, Laspistol, Master of the Horde, Melta Bombs, Power Fist, Warlord]

+ Troops +

Renegade Infantry Platoon
····Platoon Command Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, 23x Renegade w/ Lasgun]
········Demagogue [Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
········Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil [Laspistol]
········5x Renegade w/ Grenade Launcher [5x Laspistol]
····Renegade Infantry Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, 22x Renegade w/ Autogun]
········3x Autocannon Team [3x Laspistol]
········Renegade Champion [Covenant of Tzeentch, Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
········Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil [Laspistol]
····Renegade Infantry Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, 22x Renegade w/ Autogun]
········3x Autocannon Team [3x Laspistol]
········Renegade Champion [Covenant of Tzeentch, Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
········Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil [Laspistol]

Renegade Infantry Platoon
····Platoon Command Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, 28x Renegade w/ Laspistol]
········Demagogue [Covenant of Khorne, Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
········Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil [Laspistol]
····Renegade Infantry Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, 22x Renegade w/ Autogun]
········Renegade Champion [Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
········Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil [Laspistol]
····Renegade Infantry Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, 22x Renegade w/ Autogun]
········Renegade Champion [Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
········Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil [Laspistol]


Renegade Chaos Spawn

Renegade Chaos Spawn

Renegade Chaos Spawn


+ Fast Attack +

Renegade Sentinel Squadron
····Renegade Sentinel [Heavy Flamer]
····Renegade Sentinel [Heavy Flamer]
····Renegade Sentinel [Heavy Flamer]

Renegade Sentinel Squadron
····Renegade Sentinel [Heavy Flamer]
····Renegade Sentinel [Heavy Flamer]
····Renegade Sentinel [Heavy Flamer]

+ Heavy Support +

Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery
····Artillery Carriage [4x Crew, Earthshaker Cannon]

Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery
····Artillery Carriage [4x Crew, Earthshaker Cannon]

+ Lords of War +

Renegade Baneblade Super-heavy Tank [2x Lascannon & 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Militia Training]

I did just double take the arch heretic, I'd be taking a covenant anyway, so that's fine and 15 pts for Zealot is pretty nifty, and is backup for if the baneblade explodes.

Still probably gonig to go with the heretek Magus, because I;ve had the model built since forever, and a T4 3+ save is soemthing I like in a warlord


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Loving the Renegade Baneblade, just finishing off mine.

Played a game against Tyranids today, and must say that Mutant Rabble buffed up with a Covenant of Khorne Champ and an Enforcer with Combat Drugs as well as a Arch-Heretic Demagogue for Zealot is absolutely brutal.

Through sheer weight of numbers they managed to bring down a Hive Tyrant (took some rounds as the initial first round buffs were wasted on Gargoyles - it was that new formation) and then a Mawloc.

Thudd Guns are awesome too, being able to fire all over the place and removing hordes.

Plague Zombies are also great for being a tarpit and standing on objectives. Whatever your opponent throws at them is almost guaranteed to cost more points, and once in a while you can even grind down elite units.

I won in the end, at turn 5 it was pretty close, I was leading on Maelstrom, but he had some rippers on his Emperor's Will objective and a Mawloc burrowed up on mine, clearing off the Disciples I had left there and contesting it (I also had some thudd guns within 3"), but luckily the game went on to turn 7 so I was able to clear out most of his models, leaving him with only a Tyrannofex on the board.

My best units were thudd guns (killing a lot of gargoyles first turn, forcing him to waste movement on regaining coherency instead of moving his flyrant up the board, removing ripper troops (yay for double wounds on swarms) and just being annoying), my CSM Fire Raptor (taking vector strikes like a boss and shredding through 3+ armour), mutant rabble (and their buffers) and zombies.

Very happy to hear that.