Hi all,

It seems to me that 40k and GW in general are not well liked on this site at the moment.

I started playing few years ago. Since then I’ve bought 3 big rule books and a few codexes. Things change I get that, and I think it helps the game move along etc. That and at the end of the day it's a business. No one cares when Xbox etc release the latest must have games consol at hundreds of pounds etc.

So with all that in mind let’s share what we all like about this games that gets us going.

Me, well I love painting the models and finding ways to incorporate new kits into my existing collecting and using them in conversions. My gaming club (one year old next month) has given me loads of fun using my minis to battle who ever, even when I loose its fun. We even use the old rules from time to time (because we can there is no law that states otherwise)

Thanks for taking two minutes to have read of what I think is my longest post.

For me the lore. Stuff like Warmachine has good lore (for a game), but wh40k is much, much more. For all the inconsistencies is IMO one of the deepest and more original SF universes ever created.

Thats a good point, I do like the back stiores to each charcter let alone race. There has been a lot put into it, and it realy helps you make a army come alive.

The fluff, the models mostly are excellent apart from the odd model (unfortunately the odd models are cropping up more often lately... Anyway positive!) and especially the art, I love the art. I think it was a big part of why I started GW stuff (this was back when they had art on all the boxes, that's what caught my eye).

All the 'pros' are not unique to 40k.But are found in table top minature war gaming in general.

The only unique pro of 40k, is the asthetic of 40k, the art and background.(Since GW has stopped supporting the excellent Specialist games at least.)

Everything you listed that is positive in your '40k experience' is totally applicable to lots of other games.

However, in my experience the positives of other games/companies go beyond this.

They have careful and considered rule development to enhance game play, and clearly define rules and the type of game play the rules support.
They communicate with the customers openly and honestly to make sure they are developing the game in a way the customers want.
They work with their customers and distributors to enhance the hobby experience for everyone.
They support fan sites that promote their game systems and work with them to make the wider war gaming market a pleasure to engage with.

I hope this reply just focusing on positives, is in the spirit of the OP.
And may explain why some people are puzzled why GW 'market leader' fails to deliver ALL the positives they get elsewhere.

I think the lore and setting is pretty great, if you can ignore the over-the-top stuff of some authors.

The models are really great and the plastic sets (especially the new ones) are high quality and stuffed with extra bits.

7th edition has a nice shooty feel to it and I like that. The mission objectives are also very nice.

Space bugs, space robot skeletons, space elves and space Orks. I mean... What more do you need?

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Space bugs, space robot skeletons, space elves and space Orks. I mean... What more do you need?

Space Dwarves obviously

I, personally, really enjoy all of the fluff-driven lists that people bring to the table when playing.

Or at least I would if that ever happened. Doh

Well, the fluff is obviously a standout. It's probably my favourite sci-fi setting trumping Star Wars, Dune etc. Yes, don't bother mentioning that it borrows from these, I'm aware, it doesn't change my opinion.

Something I have to tip my hat to, is the quality of the plastic kits. I recently bought a Demolisher tank, the way it's assembled even a rookie modeller can easily have 3 separate setups with this kit, Demolisher, Punisher, and Executioner. Yes, the price could have been a bit lower, but there are plenty of other expensive hobbies I could be indulging in that are far less savoury.

I like 40K for it's mix simplicity and complexity. Simple in terms of the gameplay, complex in the vast variety of things even a single army can field.
Then there's how it works at a larger scale then most games. If both players know what they are doing, you can get through a game where half the board is covered with models relatively quickly. Small scale tactics are often not as important, so you can focus more on larger scale tactics and not have to fiddle with the exact facing on each of your infantry models.

Focus fire and msu spam is not something I would call large scale tactics.

The good thing about w40k, is that it is easier to get second hand models, both official and not, for it. It makes the cost of buying an army almost acceptable, if someone is in to large scale combats with skirmish rules.

I really enjoy the overall gameplay of 40k. Yes, there are other games that have a tighter, more balanced game system, but nothing else compares to the cinematic feel of 40k. A lucky shot exploding a rampaging dreadnought, an otherwise insignificant sargent death or glorying a tank and stopping it dead in its tracks. I've had an apocalypse game where a lone chaplain survived being hit from an ork rok from orbit, even though the surrounding squads all bit the dust. This game creates some memorable moments that have really stuck with me over the years.

I like 40k because even when a unit sucks I still want to make them to complete my Army. After all you need the bad ones to soak fire from the good ones.

The opportunities to create many different SF themed armies using all kinds of models and conversions.

Backstory vast enough that inconsistencies can be attributed to the vagries of historians over 10K years.

With almost 30 years of development and releases, there's always something 'new', especially for someone just coming into the game (been collecting since just before 7th dropped, and just now adding some Rogue Trader era models).

HUGE backstory for each faction and subfaction. Lots of room in there to model what you want.

I,started playing this to get away from computer games.. my recent high is showing others my crappy grots that look like pro work to untrained eyes.. I have a real hobby.. I can change up my list how I want.. painting makes me happy.. GWs atmosphere is worthy of my daydreams..

I've just started reading the fluff book.. I wish I had an imperial force..I like the fun that xenon are but I want an imperial army to.
I often don't care about the cost.. I am GWs sales base.. I like the experience.. I will play what I like versus any meta and apply a min max gamers mindset to a personality that cares not if I lose so long as something awesome happens.. even if it's to me..

Oya and the RT era space marines were convicts. Lol that makes the history even more fun.

For me the fluff is the only thing that keeps me looking at the game, although all of the cons thus far have stopped me from actually taking the plunge again.

Fluff though is bar none, same with the feel of customizing your army; that's one thing I don't get from Warmachine. In 40k I can make my own commander, customize him, create his background and stories with him. My entire army can have its own identity unique from anyone else.

Hey guys, I keep seeing references to space robots, either in posts or avatars/names/titles.

The thread title specifically says, NO CRONS.

While I don't play it much now, I do still love 40k and wish somebody would save it. I've made some of my best friends in his hobby, I still like my minis (especially my looted tanks, even if I can't legally use them) and playing the game with a good set of modifications (Nova Narrative) can still be fun.

What I like most about 40k right now, though, is that it gets more people playing X-Wing

Fluff and the tournament community.

LordBlades wrote:
For me the lore. Stuff like Warmachine has good lore (for a game), but wh40k is much, much more. For all the inconsistencies is IMO one of the deepest and more original SF universes ever created.

While 40k universe has not a single bit that is original, they put together an insane amount of ripoffs and it turned out to be a really cool universe. There is literally no original idea here, but the end result is awesome.

Also the art, for me it's John Blanche, and a couple of other artist, mostly in 2nd ed chaos codex that got me into the hobby (that was a time when minis were ugly as hell, but I was young and still loved them).

Just look at this ugly piece of plastic http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/6/17/378178_sm-Chaos,%20Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Khorne,%20Khorne%20Berzerker,%20Out%20Of%20Production.JPG and compare it to the drawn art goodness from the same time: http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/WorldEaterTerminatorArmor.jpg. Not to mention the old rhino http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2970&d=1349302519, it will just make you cry.

The universe is THE BEST!

The models are brilliant.

There is a large community so finding people to 'hobby' with is easy.

7th edition is better than 5th and 6th as a competitive endeavour if you dont want to just play one thing.

I find modified forms of Maelstrom as used by the ETC and UK GT circuit to be great fun.

And the universe is THE BEST!

Zsolt wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
For me the lore. Stuff like Warmachine has good lore (for a game), but wh40k is much, much more. For all the inconsistencies is IMO one of the deepest and more original SF universes ever created.

While 40k universe has not a single bit that is original, they put together an insane amount of ripoffs and it turned out to be a really cool universe. There is literally no original idea here, but the end result is awesome.

Also the art, for me it's John Blanche, and a couple of other artist, mostly in 2nd ed chaos codex that got me into the hobby (that was a time when minis were ugly as hell, but I was young and still loved them).

Just look at this ugly piece of plastic http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/6/17/378178_sm-Chaos,%20Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Khorne,%20Khorne%20Berzerker,%20Out%20Of%20Production.JPG and compare it to the drawn art goodness from the same time: http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/WorldEaterTerminatorArmor.jpg. Not to mention the old rhino http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2970&d=1349302519, it will just make you cry.

Hey! I had 20 of those old Khorne 'zerkers.
And I had a T-shirt with that Chaos termie.
And my SOB army still had an old immolator with that old rhino design.

40K pro, and no cons?

Ok then:

The RPG's exist.

Guns like the Shokk Attack Gunn. The random destruction and mayhem is entertaining!

Here is one that I don't think anyone has mentioned. And it's probably the biggest pro of all.
In Britain (not sure about other countries), unlike other table top wargames, you can find 40k players wherever you go. There is such a large customer base, that if you put any effort in what so ever, it is very easy to find a game. Not so with other wargames.
This means your investment in models is not wasted. It means your time assembling and painting is not wasted. And it means your time you have dedicated to getting engrossed in the fluff and army building is not wasted.
Yes you may start playing Infinity or Hordes with friends, but what if you move? It is far easier to find other 40k players in your new local than it is to find other wargamers. And if you are truely stuck - there is a huge chain of shops to meet such people if needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could invent the best most fluid ruleset ever made, you could use top end 3D printers to print insanely good models, you could write fluff that blows all other sci-fi out of the water. But if you can't find other players to play such a game - its not worth the time and effort. 40k will never struggle in this regard.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Here is one that I don't think anyone has mentioned. And it's probably the biggest pro of all.
In Britain (not sure about other countries), unlike other table top wargames, you can find 40k players wherever you go. There is such a large customer base, that if you put any effort in what so ever, it is very easy to find a game. Not so with other wargames.
This means your investment in models is not wasted. It means your time assembling and painting is not wasted. And it means your time you have dedicated to getting engrossed in the fluff and army building is not wasted.
Yes you may start playing Infinity or Hordes with friends, but what if you move? It is far easier to find other 40k players in your new local than it is to find other wargamers. And if you are truely stuck - there is a huge chain of shops to meet such people if needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could invent the best most fluid ruleset ever made, you could use top end 3D printers to print insanely good models, you could write fluff that blows all other sci-fi out of the water. But if you can't find other players to play such a game - its not worth the time and effort. 40k will never struggle in this regard.

While still true, it's growing less true every year. In America independent stores are far more common than GW stores so its easier to find people playing alternate games wherever you go.
Case in point. When I moved to Utah, I found three stores right off the bat that had 40k, but they also had games of FOW, WMH and Maliefaux going on.
In England it may be more difficult.
And if the game is so amazing, then yes, it is worth the time and effort. Why settle for a crap game when you can work a little harder and get a great one? There are ways to build communities of alternate games in your area. It's just about the willingness. In my area I've started a local WMH FB page so players can get on-line and set up games.
Be the change you want to see.

AlexRae wrote:
The universe is THE BEST!

The models are brilliant.

There is a large community so finding people to 'hobby' with is easy.

7th edition is better than 5th and 6th as a competitive endeavour if you dont want to just play one thing.

I find modified forms of Maelstrom as used by the ETC and UK GT circuit to be great fun.

And the universe is THE BEST!

Heh, I like this guy. Same opinion here (well, aside the large community in Brazil, but i don't live in the cities with clubs just friends)

it definitely has to be the background of the universe. Many people overlook it, but I honestly think 40k has one of the best and most detailed sci-fi universes of all time. The fact that no collecter's army or collection needs to be the same as the next, and how you can find a whole article about the types of shells that a boltgun fires really testifies how good it all is.

I also massively enjoy the models; I genuinely think that GW makes some fantastic miniatures, and they are an absolute joy to paint. And coming from a player who has to paint dozens of Guard minis, that's saying something

I think it's a shame the game lets all of this down, but I often find a way around it. And even if I quit playing, I would never dump my collection.

G.A

Definitely the fluff and the overall look for me. No other universe do I love as much as 40k, and talking about fluff and building and playing with a fluff based army is super fun. Even when the game mechanics and balance make me mad, I always come back because of the awesome universe

The general look is pretty awesome too, being a huge fan of the gothic architecture and look, and most of the models look absolutely stunning as well

The biggest pro of 40k is its crazy value for money.

I buy a model (or box thereof) for, say, $50. Then I go home and assemble and convert it, say for an hour or two. Then I paint it, once again for a few more hours. Then it gets included in many games over many years for several more hours a pop. And it strengthens my connection to other things, like the fluff I read, the armylists I make, and my time on dakka. Put it all together, and that $50 gets me hundreds of hours of entertainment. I'd like to see movie tickets or alcohol come anywhere close.

But, as mentioned, that's for mini wargames in general. True, but 40k does this even moreso. 40k has a large community, which means I get more value from easier to find games, and a larger, more diverse group of people to talk to on the internet. 40k has a lot more minis that they offer, and a LOT more written content, which means there's more stuff to enjoy and talk about - it's just a lot more developed. It also has an amazing contiguity. If I bought confrontation or AT43 or heroclix, or any of a very, very long list of failed game companies, then purchases I made years ago would no longer give me value, unlike 40k, which keeps chugging along.

The cost-per-content over time is very favorable for 40k compared to everything else. As other games start providing more content, and show that they can last for longer than 5 or 10 years, then 40k will start having some serious competition, I'm sure, but 40ks' competitive advantage is pretty well entrenched for a reason.

Doesn't warmachine exist for more then 5 years?

Privateer press was founded in 2000.

Don't know when the game was first launched.

i bought my first Warmachine minis in 2003, so the game would have launched around that time, as pretty much only the starter boxes were available when i first saw them in the stores...
so, yeah, over 10 years ago now...
maybe even 12...

of course, i've been collecting Space Marines for almost 30 years now, so that is some serious longevity...
i still enjoy the 40K universe as much now as i did when i first cracked open the Rogue Trader book, all those years ago...

the Horus Heresy stuff has made it all seem fresh and new again, too, which is awesome...
i can see myself having enough dream painting projects to last me the rest of my life...

cheers
jah

I've always loved 40k for its fluff. I love many of the models. It's great that 40k is so widespread and you always find people in new areas who will play 40k. Hell, due to the computer games there are many people who are interested in playing.

I played a lot of other wargames in all the years and 40k just is the best total package for me.

Great universe and background, nice models with lots of options for modeling, and a fun game. Huge community that generates tons of content daily.

Customisable models with lots of extra bits to make them really unique are a huge plus. That´s pretty much the main issue I miss in other games.

I really like the variety offered. Even the Space Marine big chapters (BA, DA, SW) are very distinct from each other, let alone all the other armies you can choose from. There are so many options to choose from for armies. Yes, you might not always have the most competitive army, but damnit, you sure as heck can make it unique before you even apply your first coat of paint.

And seriously, Space Egyptian Doom Robots, anime fan Mecha Space Communists, Fungus Physics-screwing Soccer Hooligans, Space Elves, Dominatrix Space Elves, and Nuns with guns!

The fluff man, without a doubt. No IP ever even comes close to being as alternately hilarious and brutal as 40k does. I love it. It's pretty much the only thing keepin me in this game

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And seriously, Space Egyptian Doom Robots, anime fan Mecha Space Communists, Fungus Physics-screwing Soccer Hooligans, Space Elves, Dominatrix Space Elves, and Nuns with guns!

The models as a whole are second to none.

The weapons are the best of any miniature -- for example, I love Privateer Press models, but their scifi weapons look so dinky compared to Citadel models.

There are some fantastic vehicles, like Ravager/Raider, which are inexpensive relative to their complexity. There are some incredible large monster models, but though these are more WHFB than 40k (like the new Glotkin). Who doesn't like Ven Dred though?

The universe and fluff is compelling.

Availability is generally good in most major cities in North America.

MPP miniatures are just great for modelling! As much as I miss metal miniatures, being able to pose and kitbash is fantastic. For example, every Borka or Bradicus (PP) will look the same, whereas virtually every non snapfit model can be built into a number of options (like weapons and heads) and many, many poses.

I love the extra parts you get out of sprues!!

The thing I like most about 40k is the Variable fluff. I can read something and say "that's awesome, I want to build an army around that!" or I can say "that's stupid, I'll ignore that" and I could be correct either way for the most part. For instance, I see the fluff behind space marines and they way they speak annoys me to no end. It's so dramatic it's like a terrible movie. I just imagine that anyone who meets a space marine probably feels the same way after not too long, but hey when the guy is 600 pounds heavier and 3 feet taller you should probably just keep saying "yes milord". Whenever I hear about a battle where space marines come to save an imperial guard force I just imagine the imperial guard commander saying "oh...great...."

I love that one person can model their orks as bloodthirsty savages and someone else can model them as idiots enjoying their version of valhalla.

I love that the fluff talks about a whole planet being wiped out in a day or 50% of a population being drafted but at the same time I can't help but wonder "so who makes the toasters and what does that guy/gal have to deal with each day?"

The fluff is huge, but it leaves so much open to take and leave whatever you want.

Couple this with the vast selection of models for each faction and the different poses they have. It's relatively easy to say "I like this about tau but not this part" and you can do that, model-wise.

I also like that I can make a small army of 500 points that actually looks like an army, or I can make an army of 5000 points and play huge battles.

The Fluff - just love it
The artwork
Much of the BL novels
Most of the People I play against

Background is amazing, but the thing that sets 40k apart is the ability to invent your own background/fluff/scheme/chapter. That's the reason I can't get into other games e.g. LOTR. There's a guy with dub step tau with a topless female tau in a hot tub and who's to say he's wrong?

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Background is amazing, but the thing that sets 40k apart is the ability to invent your own background/fluff/scheme/chapter. That's the reason I can't get into other games e.g. LOTR. There's a guy with dub step tau with a topless female tau in a hot tub and who's to say he's wrong?

Yeah, this is a very big selling point. The vastness of the background coupled with the fact that GW has never tried to nail down the universe to any rules has allowed for some insane creations. Even in WHFB, the realms and rules of the universe are rather set, so the ability to "go nuts" isn't there as much.

I enjoy the setting, the aesthetics, the models, building 40K themed terrain, and playing the game.

While there may be similar games to 40K, and I've played a few, none have the sheer number of armies and models available the 40K has

Yeah, it's a lot easier to have the planet of hats effect when they're literally separate planets.

Great response guys. It s great to see two pages (so far) of people who obvisly realy enjoy it.

It seems we all love the universe 40k is set in along with art work and creavtivity that goes into making it.

Its interesting to see people say its value for money too, when you consider just how much use you'll get out of the kits. It did make me think oh yea, my other main hobbies are rock climbing and mountain biking. These are so far from cheap!

The interesting background.

The aesthetic of the model designs.

The 'Eavy Metal painting guides.

The ease of finding other players compared with other wargames.

I like this thread!

40k is the best wargame for the following reasons:


It has the best models
It has the best story
And is the most fun and scenic to play.

It's that simple!

 Ailaros wrote:

The cost-per-content over time is very favorable for 40k compared to everything else. As other games start providing more content, and show that they can last for longer than 5 or 10 years, then 40k will start having some serious competition, I'm sure, but 40ks' competitive advantage is pretty well entrenched for a reason.

I had a similar revelation when 7th came out and I was arguing with a gaming mate about the cost of the Hardcover rulebook. $85 over the course of the next couple of years I'll get use out of it is less than a $1 a week. We were both paying $15 a month for MMORPGS, that when they were closed, left us with nothing but fond memories. We've been raiding our closets and attics for buried treasures and unearthed 40K models from all the way back to the RT Era. Fond memories and models to boot, conveneinetly with a game that lets us get use out of them.

But 6th edition 40k only lasted less than two years.

And when Battlefront upgraded their 2nd ed rules for F.O.W. they gave a free upgrade to third edition rules to players with a 2nd full edition rule book.

Like I said higher up in this thread, 40k gives players the same pros as many other games and companies do.However, some other games and companies give far more pro's than GW plc and 40k do.

Firstly, 6th ed was anomalously short. Secondly, if you have the rulebook, you can still play 6th ed 40k. You can't, as mentioned, play a mmorpg whose servers have closed down.

i didn't really specify in my earlier post, but it has always been the art that inspires my painting...
i've always had a thing for Sci-Fi art...
Star Wars was my first inspiration, then came Battletech, then Shadowrun, and finally Rogue Trader and Adeptus Titanicus seemed to turn it all up to 11...
back in the day, 40k was the first setting with art that was completely in-your-face and out-of-control, and yet on a grand scale too...
between the close-up look at the universe in Rogue Trader, and the epic scale of Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine, i was hooked from day one...
artists like Mark Gibbons, Kev Walker, Paul Bonner, and Stephen Tappin, among others, have really inspired my imagination for three decades...

as for Lanrak's comment about other companies giving you more pro's than GW, that depends entirely on what you are after...
for me it is the art, fiction, and models, and not the ruleset...
the closest thing to the depth of 40K would have to be Battletech...
while i love big stompy Mecha packing big guns, it does not inspire me like 40k...
i've read a Battletech novel or two, but i've collected almost every Black Library book, rulebook, White Dwarf, and codex through every edition of 40k ( and Warhammer) because it inspires me more than any other brand...
a few art pieces from Battletech have been awesome, but nearly every piece of GW art has blown me away...
the same goes for the models, where a few 'Mech minis are cool, i love almost every Space Marine that has been released since the first RT minis...

as for value for the money, i feel i get great value for my money...
i can paint a $20 character model and get $200 for it...
i can sell an unpainted RT marine i bought for $2 for $20...
so, for me, there is great value for the money, especially considering that models i bought 25 years ago have a higher market value today than they did when i bought them...
compare that to my surf boards, which cost between $800 and $1200...
like a car, as soon as i wax up my board and take it out for a surf, it drops by at least half in value...
not only that, but sometimes i break a board on the first wave of the day (or any wave in a session), and there goes $800 out the window...
i drop a mini, and it explodes into five pieces that i can fix, and nobody can tell the difference...
a broken surf board can be repaired, but it is never the same again, and can only be sold for $100-$200...
so, yeah, GW minis have always worked out as a good investment for me...

to keep the comparisons in the realm of minis, people look to spend about a quarter of the price on an Infinity mini painted by me versus the price of a 40K character model, and PP minis only make up about 5% of my commissions versus Space Marines, and i even used to paint for PP...
you think that would bring in more commissions, but people want my Marines...
there is just something about a GW mini's appeal to people that most other companies don't have yet...

cheers
jah

@Ailaros.
How do you know how long any edition of 40k will last?
Can I find out what is happening over the next year on GWs official forums?


Flames of War 2nd ed rules were release in 2006.(£20)
Battlefront updated the rules in 2012,and gave owners of the 2nd edition hard back rule book a free upgrade to 3rd edition.
(The majority of players approved of the changes as they improved game play, or at least understood why the changes were made because Battlefront discussed the changes with players on the official Flames of War forums.)

So £20 for a rule book ,(that has lasted 8 years and still counting), with free to use PDF army lists on the official forums, balanced well defined rules, and excellent tournament /event support.

These are all the EXTRA pros of F.o.W. that I get.(On top of inspiring background,tons of detail and models I find appealing.)

 Accolade wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Background is amazing, but the thing that sets 40k apart is the ability to invent your own background/fluff/scheme/chapter. That's the reason I can't get into other games e.g. LOTR. There's a guy with dub step tau with a topless female tau in a hot tub and who's to say he's wrong?

Yeah, this is a very big selling point. The vastness of the background coupled with the fact that GW has never tried to nail down the universe to any rules has allowed for some insane creations. Even in WHFB, the realms and rules of the universe are rather set, so the ability to "go nuts" isn't there as much.

Agreed, for me that might be one of the biggest pros about 40k. The openness.
The models used to be the best but are still dang good. (Especially Nagash...holy gak.)
The fluff is awesome but has become somewhat stagnant. Still good though.

 Godeth wrote:
Hi all,

It seems to me that 40k and GW in general are not well liked on this site at the moment.

It is still well liked. it is only a select few VERY vocal members. Despite, their words to the contrary, they do NOT speak for the majority of us. Most of us simply have them on ignore. So dont feel discouraged.
The fluff and the models that go with it keep me going. I actually like the newer rules that have introduced a greater level of tactics. Not that they are perfect but that they are better than what we had before. It is actually worth it to have a 'gun" now and flyers have added a new level.

i wont go into the company itself because that would not be much positives lol.

I also like the books. So glad they have started doing the horus heresy. My gaming group have been clamboring for that since well, since the horus heresy was concieved and let out to us.

40k PRO: gives me an awesome hobby to build, paint and socialize within. The fluff is awesome too.

Lore and setting

and most of the ascetics

Stick to the topic.

OP, I think you will find that the main issue is not actually with 40k. it is with the parent company and it's policies. Just because we dislike them or do not agree with themdoes not mean we do not like many of the games they put out. pretty much everyone here likes 40k to a degree. We may not like aspects of it (differentiation of rules or instability of fluff or whatnot but overall, we find more about 40k that we like than we dislike or we wouldnt be here.

I feel your pain in getting tired of seeing negativity all the time from a select few. I think we should ALL focus more on the aspects that we DO like and spend less time dwelling on those we dont.
We should also support one another in what we like instead of trying to tear one another down for it.
It was the fufff and models that got me into the game and what keeps me liking it despite my feelings for the parent company..
Check out the thread dedicated to what got us into the game and you will see a few more positives given.
Kudos to you for standing up and starting the thread.

Lanrak wrote: How do you know how long any edition of 40k will last?

No, but the most expected amount of time it will last is the average (or, well, the median) amount of time the others in the series have.

Plus, even if they came out with a new rules edition every 20 seconds, it wouldn't change the fact that you could still play games with whatever rulebook you choose to play with. Rulebooks are a durable good.

EVIL INC wrote:we find more about 40k that we like than we dislike or we wouldnt be here.

I am seriously beginning to wonder if this is still true.

EVIL INC wrote:I feel your pain in getting tired of seeing negativity all the time from a select few.

If only it were so simple. The makeup of dakka changes over time. If there are a bunch of trolls or super-negative people, it will deter people who aren't that way from joining, and encourage those kinds of people to sign up and start posting. Furthermore, it will cause existing posters to start expressing the same kinds of opinions, whether because they were detered from expressing them before, or because they slowly give in to the bile over time.

Of the people on my friends list, a majority of them have stopped posting as of about may or june, while the people on my ignore list seems to grow every week. Either I changed substantially over the past few months, or a very different kind of person is taking over dakka.

In this case, the whole, I would argue, is bigger than the sum of its parts. If not even a "say something good" thread can last for more than a few posts before people start only saying something bad, I'd say that's an indicator. Especially of the future health of dakka.

 Ailaros wrote:

Of the people on my friends list, a majority of them have stopped posting as of about may or june

Wasn't that about the time 7th came out?

 reds8n wrote:
Stick to the topic.

Do what the man says. Go bash GW and decry the sky is falling in another thread please.

PRO - Active fan base, with awesome online resources like DakkaDakka

I think he has a point in the part of just being forced to give in to the bile over time. If someone is ramming the negativity down your throat over time and others are afraid to stand up to them, they start to force others to think like them against their will without ven knowing it. If peoplelooked towardspositives and made some sort of attempt to find things they like this effect would work in the opposite direction and it would be a healthier community.

A few things that have not been mentioned but SHOULD be...

1. Education- Growing up, I was a bright kid (or so i've been told) but in school, I never paid attention in class or didhomework or studied. I was always too busy reading a book or fiddling with my gaming stuff. Yet, I made passing grades and eked by. I realized that a lot of the math, reading skills and comprehension, communication skills history ect ect, I had actually picked up and learned through gaming. Whether it be fantasy, 40k or D&D, I owe a lot of my education to the hobby.

2. Friends- Gaming kept my friends and I together and gave us a comman ground where otherwise, we may have drifted apart before becoming truly close or after we had aged and grown up. To this day, I could put my life in their hands and totally trust them.

3. Good times and stories- Memories. We all have good times and memories of things we did with our buddies. It doesnt matter ifit was an especially horrible game we had to laugh at or some trick we pulled that backfired or knowing that we had been dumped by an ex and got the whole story out and off our chests while playing a game.

4. Mental health- I can tell you, I have been worked up or anguished and displaced the energy into the hobby through list building and painting/converting when otherwise, my mental condition may have caused me to start drinking or fighting are even driving as fast as i could down the road hoping "the decision to be removed from my hands" if ya know what i mean.

These things and more are all things the negative people dont seem to consider at all.

 EVIL INC wrote:
I think he has a point in the part of just being forced to give in to the bile over time. If someone is ramming the negativity down your throat over time and others are afraid to stand up to them, they start to force others to think like them against their will without ven knowing it. If peoplelooked towardspositives and made some sort of attempt to find things they like this effect would work in the opposite direction and it would be a healthier community.

A few things that have not been mentioned but SHOULD be...

1. Education- Growing up, I was a bright kid (or so i've been told) but in school, I never paid attention in class or didhomework or studied. I was always too busy reading a book or fiddling with my gaming stuff. Yet, I made passing grades and eked by. I realized that a lot of the math, reading skills and comprehension, communication skills history ect ect, I had actually picked up and learned through gaming. Whether it be fantasy, 40k or D&D, I owe a lot of my education to the hobby.

2. Friends- Gaming kept my friends and I together and gave us a comman ground where otherwise, we may have drifted apart before becoming truly close or after we had aged and grown up. To this day, I could put my life in their hands and totally trust them.

3. Good times and stories- Memories. We all have good times and memories of things we did with our buddies. It doesnt matter ifit was an especially horrible game we had to laugh at or some trick we pulled that backfired or knowing that we had been dumped by an ex and got the whole story out and off our chests while playing a game.

4. Mental health- I can tell you, I have been worked up or anguished and displaced the energy into the hobby through list building and painting/converting when otherwise, my mental condition may have caused me to start drinking or fighting are even driving as fast as i could down the road hoping "the decision to be removed from my hands" if ya know what i mean.

These things and more are all things the negative people dont seem to consider at all.

But all of that can be done outside of Games Workshop. (GW aint the hobby, table-top gaming is.) Yet again, you're arguing against things nobody said.

True, it CAN be done outside of GW. But we are not discussing GW, we are discussing 40k which is only one product GW has. You can dislike the company and like the background and mythos of one of it's games.
However, while those things COULD be done outside of 40k, for many of us it WAS done making use of 40k. Dismissing out of hand how it has helped many of us because of your personal dislike is rude and impolite because it dismisses us and our lives and experiences as worthless. For many it does a better job at those things than another "product' would while for others it would do it less. Regardless the fact is that it HAS and giving it credit for that is relevant to the topic.
Also note that The thread is NOT about tabletop gaming, it is about 40k and pros of it. There are other threads dedicated to bashing. The OP specifically asked for no bashing and mods have already asked you to remain on topic.

 EVIL INC wrote:
True, it CAN be done outside of GW. But we are not discussing GW, we are discussing 40k which is only one product GW has. You can dislike the company and like the background and mythos of one of it's games.
However, while those things COULD be done outside of 40k, for many of us it WAS done making use of 40k. Dismissing out of hand how it has helped many of us because of your personal dislike is rude and impolite because it dismisses us and our lives and experiences as worthless. For many it does a better job at those things than another "product' would while for others it would do it less. Regardless the fact is that it HAS and giving it credit for that is relevant to the topic.
Also note that you are arguing against something no one has ever said. The thread is NOT about tabletop gaming, it is about 40k and pros of it. There are other threads dedicated to bashing. The OP specifically asked for no bashing and mods have already asked you to remain on topic.

I was trying to say that your "40k pro" was not specific to 40k so has little validity to a 40k specific topic. Try to stay on topic.

If Evil Inc has done all those things while playing 40K, he will associate them with 40K, and therefore is on topic.

Absolute uniqueness to 40K was not a qualification discussed by the OP

 adamsouza wrote:
If Evil Inc has done all those things while playing 40K, he will associate them with 40K, and therefore is on topic.

Absolute uniqueness to 40K was not a qualification discussed by the OP

Then I apologize. I misunderstood the topic.

I'm sure I'm not alone in those things.
True, we COULD have done it elsewhere (like in cvlasses at school for example lol) but 40k interested me enough to keep my attention and make me want to do those things where other sources just did not. For many, it would be sports while others drama or choir or whatever else caught and held their attention and assisted them in it. For many of us, this was 40k. For me in particular, it was a combination of 40k and D&D.

@EVIL INC.
I do not think anyone was trying to say that the pros of 40k are not significant or important.And I am sure lots of people enjoy the 40k hobby , for all the social and personal reasons that have been posted.

However, these pros are actually common to ALL table top war games.
The only thing that sets 40k apart is its art and background.But as other rule sets can work with this.
(Epic Armageddon /NET EPIC ,Tomorrows War, Stargrunt II,Warpath, Fast and Dirty, One page 40k, FUBAR, etc.)
I really do not see this as a 'show stopper.'

The point I was trying to make is the list of pros for other games exceeds that of the list of pros for 40k.

Lanrak wrote:
The point I was trying to make is the list of pros for other games exceeds that of the list of pros for 40k.

In your opinion.

@adamsouza.
Subjective things like how cool models look, or how much fun you have playing the game are personal opinion.

But rule sets have a objective function, so can be compared objectively to each other.
And so direct comparison of concrete metrics , like complexity of game play to level of complication in the rule sets , and cost in time and effort etc, are not just based on opinion, but are factual differences.

And in objective comparison to other game systems, 40k list of pros run out before other games list of pros do!

I'm with Evil Inc.

Sure, in my long and storied 40k journey, there are bumps in the road. However, for me, they are far outweighed by the happy memories of the game.

Most importantly, I can relate to "friends" and "good times and memories" with 40k. Could it have been done with another game? Sure, maybe. But guess what, in the 80's and 90's, there were no another scifi tabletop wargames (certainly nothing near the complexity and model range of 40k). So, in 40k, I developed many friendships and have many fond memories. I can say the same thing about Magic the Gathering. Heck, I can even say the same thing about Diablo 2 and even Diablo 3.

However, FOR ME, none of these other games have endured the test of time as has 40k. I've had long breaks from 40k, but I always come back to it in some way or another, because I just love the game universe and the models, and as I have said in other threads, the rules themselves are easily fixable.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanrak wrote:
@adamsouza.
Subjective things like how cool models look, or how much fun you have playing the game are personal opinion.

But rule sets have a objective function, so can be compared objectively to each other.
And so direct comparison of concrete metrics , like complexity of game play to level of complication in the rule sets , and cost in time and effort etc, are not just based on opinion, but are factual differences.

And in objective comparison to other game systems, 40k list of pros run out before other games list of pros do!

No, not really. It's pointless to objectively compare one set of rules with another set of rules and say X is better than Y, because at the end of the day, what's important, TO ME, is that the game is fun. if I find a game is fun, grabs me, and my friends and I can have a blast, I really don't care whether game X is more balanced than game Y or that game Z has more "pros".

I mean, that's like saying that Football is better than Hockey because if you list out all the pros and cons, Football has a longer list. Anyone who watches either sport will probably stare at you and just go... "Huh?"

And, lest I neglect to state the obvious, like sports, why should tabletop wargames be exclusionary? Just because I like 40k doesn't mean I can't play X-Wing, WHFB, and War Machine. Just because I like Halo doesn't mean I can't play Titanfall and CoD. Some people will prefer one game to the other, but the existence of more choices is GOOD for the industry and for consumers.

I'm Talys and EVIL Inc... I've played every edition, and 40K has never been perfect, far from it - but it's always been great fun, and in my opinion it has always continued to get better and offer more and more.

I don't believe GW as a company can ever 'win' at this point. One quick look at this forum and you'll see that the 'players' cannot agree on ANYTHING - how does a company make all of those people happy? My group just keeps getting together and having fun regardless.

PROS:
great models,
great historical background,
unmatched depth and breadth in regards to options, variety, races/armies, choices etc etc
except for 4th edition and the second half of 5th edition, I've loved playing every version of the game,
great spin-off alternative modes, like zone mortalis, planet strike, kill team, and apoc (my favorite)
I play 40k regularly (with good people), and I therefore I love 40k

CONS:
the player base in general rather sucks
the prices are terribly high (and have always been high in their time)
again due to high prices, this has always been a game for the more entitled, spoiled kids, and the more entitled, spoiled kids that have grown up into entitled adults
- therefore you see a lot of the "they owe me" and "why don't they do what _I_ want?" attitudes - and the constant complaining.
every edition has a few rules that are annoying, that reasonable people can just deal with, but at tournaments you will have 'issue'.
white dwarf got lame for a while, but recently I've been very much enjoying it.
resin models
mold lines!
paint containers dry out too darn fast
again, the prices

Bottom line though: I LOVE WARHAMMER 40K.

Lanrak wrote:
@adamsouza.
Subjective things like how cool models look, or how much fun you have playing the game are personal opinion.

But rule sets have a objective function, so can be compared objectively to each other.
And so direct comparison of concrete metrics , like complexity of game play to level of complication in the rule sets , and cost in time and effort etc, are not just based on opinion, but are factual differences.

And in objective comparison to other game systems, 40k list of pros run out before other games list of pros do!

You fail at even attempting to be objective.

Which game is "best" is entirely subjective based on personal values.

If it was all down to concrete metrics, we'd all be playing Chess.

Chess has less complicated rules.
Chess requires very little finiancial commitment.
Chess is widely more recognized and more prestigous than any other tabletop game.
Chess requires very little setup time.
Chess requires no time between games on preparing the models.

 Gunzhard wrote:
the player base in general rather sucks

Care to elaborate?

I'm genuinely curious what about the 40k player base in particular makes them suck.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
the player base in general rather sucks

Care to elaborate?

I'm genuinely curious what about the 40k player base in particular makes them suck.

If you are posting here, I'm assuming you've spent more than a few minutes in the Dakka 40k general... is that not enough evidence for you?

As I said in that same post, blame GW high prices - but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults. This was never a game for people of humble means. So the entitled, spoiled attitude that people seem to have towards the game and in particular GW should be no surprise... that said, GW (like every company) is not without its flaws.

 Gunzhard wrote:


If you are posting here, I'm assuming you've spent more than a few minutes in the Dakka 40k general... is that not enough evidence for you?

Well, humour aside, no. There are certainly some, uhhh, interesting characters here, but the same can be said of anywhere on the internet. I don't think Dakka or any 40k/wargame centric forum is free of gakky posting. The frequency and degree varies, but given the size of Dakka, I'd say its pretty damn good here.

As I said in that same post, blame GW high prices - but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults. This was never a game for people of humble means. So the entitled, spoiled attitude that people seem to have towards the game and in particular GW should be no surprise... that said, GW (like every company) is not without its flaws.

I really don't agree with this. At all. While GW's prices are certainly among the highest, I don't think the difference between owning a WM/H and a 40k army is such that one group is made up mostly of alleged entitled brats, and the other is not.

Then again, I haven't ran into anyone that would fit that description in real life, but most of the people I game with are military, so I avoid a few of the stereotypes that way.

Maybe I'm also missing out on this entitled behaviour online, but I feel like what some see as entitled, I see as fair criticism of a product.

 Gunzhard wrote:

As I said in that same post, blame GW high prices - but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults. This was never a game for people of humble means. So the entitled, spoiled attitude that people seem to have towards the game and in particular GW should be no surprise... .

No and Yes.

GW games have not always been insanely high and regulated to spoiled entitled kids, characterizing the entire playerbase as such is a douche move on your part.

However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

 adamsouza wrote:


However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

Which is true of many hobbies, games, and activities.

Or, indeed, life.

 Blacksails wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:


However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

Which is true of many hobbies, games, and activities.

True, but I was thinking about douchy people entitled enough to apply negative labels across the entire 40K playerbase at the time I was wrtiting that comment.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:


However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

Which is true of many hobbies, games, and activities.

True, but I was thinking about douchy people entitled enough to apply negative labels across the entire 40K playerbase at the time I was wrtiting that comment.

Nobody seems to do that, though, only to certain rabid individuals who refuse to see any fault or dismisses any criticism with nonsense and/or veiled attacks.

The biggest pro for me of 40k is the background and sometimes the figures. Everything else is subpar.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, indeed, life.

That is the point - if you think everyone is on the same level as you in "life" (which they are NOT by an enormous majority), then you are unaware of your privilege/entitlement.

Most kids cannot afford 40K and it has literally always been that way, at least here in the US. I started with Rogue Trader, and while it is ridiculously expensive now, it was always priced very high.

Were we just told to check our privileges?

WayneTheGame wrote:

Nobody seems to do that, though, only to certain rabid individuals who refuse to see any fault or dismisses any criticism with nonsense and/or veiled attacks.

but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, indeed, life.

That is the point - if you think everyone is on the same level as you in "life" (which they are NOT by an enormous majority), then you are unaware of your privilege/entitlement.

Most kids cannot afford 40K and it has literally always been that way, at least here in the US. I started with Rogue Trader, and while it is ridiculously expensive now, it was always priced very high.

What a load of old tosh.

You be trollin bro?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, indeed, life.

That is the point - if you think everyone is on the same level as you in "life" (which they are NOT by an enormous majority), then you are unaware of your privilege/entitlement.

Most kids cannot afford 40K and it has literally always been that way, at least here in the US. I started with Rogue Trader, and while it is ridiculously expensive now, it was always priced very high.

What a load of old tosh.

You be trollin bro?

It's a luxury hobby; poor kids don't 40K. You don't have to be a doctor, historian, or 'troll', to know that MOST kids in the world can't afford to get into 40K, and that's always been the case. We might be getting off topic and some entitled folks are clearly offended heh, but it is the truth, like it or not.

I really don't think entitled means what you think it means.

Unless you think it means "middle class with reasonable income."

 Gunzhard wrote:


It's a luxury hobby; poor kids don't 40K. You don't have to be a doctor, historian, or 'troll', to know that MOST kids in the world can't afford to get into 40K, and that's always been the case. We might be getting off topic and some entitled folks are clearly offended heh, but it is the truth, like it or not.

Most kids in the world live in China, so actually yeah, if they wanted to, they probably could afford to play 40k, if they play with Chinese miniatures.

You accused anyone able to play 40K as entitled and spoiled. It was offensive and you do not have a sane argument to back it up.

To bring it back on topic ..

Which rule set a person prefers is indeed subjective. They can be compared objectively simply for establishing that there are differences but the actual decision as to which is better or worse is indeed purely subjective.

I thought the topic was naming the pros of 40k?

I know one thing I used to love, and am glad to see it's being brought back with the most recent Tyranid release, is the PSAs, Imperial directives, etc. that publish how the Imperium deals with its many threats.





The absurdity of things like executing all witnesses, and the overall madness that is the Imperium is something I really enjoy about the game (aka its background).

 EVIL INC wrote:
To bring it back on topic ..

Which rule set a person prefers is indeed subjective. They can be compared objectively simply for establishing that there are differences but the actual decision as to which is better or worse is indeed purely subjective.

Not really, objectively you can establishing what rule set is better, but subjectively you can decide what one you like better.

 Accolade wrote:
I thought the topic was naming the pros of 40k?

I know one thing I used to love, and am glad to see it's being brought back with the most recent Tyranid release, is the PSAs, Imperial directives, etc. that publish how the Imperium deals with its many threats.

Wait, holy crap, Vitria?! As in, home world of the Vitrian Dragoons that nobody's heard about since the very first Gaunt's Ghosts book?

Awesome!

Noir wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
To bring it back on topic ..

Which rule set a person prefers is indeed subjective. They can be compared objectively simply for establishing that there are differences but the actual decision as to which is better or worse is indeed purely subjective.

Not really, objectively you can establishing what rule set is better, but subjectively you can decide what one you like better.

Ehm... how?

How do you determine which ruleset is "better"? Objectively speaking, that is.

Noir wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
To bring it back on topic ..

Which rule set a person prefers is indeed subjective. They can be compared objectively simply for establishing that there are differences but the actual decision as to which is better or worse is indeed purely subjective.

Not really, objectively you can establishing what rule set is better, but subjectively you can decide what one you like better.

Actually it IS all subjectively. This because it is impossible to objectively discuss which rule set is better in this case because "better" is a subjective issue. Thats the problem we have here. People think that their"better"HAS to be the one true better and all others are wrong. This is simply not the case because Better in this subjective matter is determined by personal "taste" and preference.

I like the backgrounds and specialist games quite a bit. It's something no one else really does as well.

I haven't played 40k in a while though, despite owning a bunch of armies.

Side note, no one commented on evil Inc's school post?
Slackers

 EVIL INC wrote:

Noir wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
To bring it back on topic ..

Which rule set a person prefers is indeed subjective. They can be compared objectively simply for establishing that there are differences but the actual decision as to which is better or worse is indeed purely subjective.

Not really, objectively you can establishing what rule set is better, but subjectively you can decide what one you like better.

Actually it IS all subjectively. This because it is impossible to objectively discuss which rule set is better in this case because "better" is a subjective issue. Thats the problem we have here. People think that their"better"HAS to be the one true better and all others are wrong. This is simply not the case because Better in this subjective matter is determined by personal "taste" and preference.

No, it is possible to agree on a set of criteria, compare various rules systems to those criteria and determine which is superior.

It isn't possible to judge which an individual enjoys more objectively, and an objectively superior product is not necessarily everyone's personal preference.

So along the same lines, which flavor jello is better is an objective question? or what color looks better on a tshirt is an objective question? It is along the same lines as what is "better" for one person may not be better for another.
In the matter of which rule set is "better", "better" is defined by which a person likes best or derives the most enjoyment from. By definition, that makes it subjective.
School post? I dont recal educational facilities being a part of the conversation at all. Could you cite which post in this thread brings that into question?

 EVIL INC wrote:
So along the same lines, which flavor jello is better is an objective question? or what color looks better on a tshirt is an objective question? It is along the same lines as what is "better" for one person may not be better for another.
In the matter of which rule set is "better", "better" is defined by which a person likes best or derives the most enjoyment from. By definition, that makes it subjective.

Yeah, because a game is totally like food or colours.

Things like balance, ease of learning, depth of play, and customization/options are all metrics that can be measured against to come to a mostly objective agreement on the quality of games.

 EVIL INC wrote:
So along the same lines, which flavor jello is better is an objective question? or what color looks better on a tshirt is an objective question? It is along the same lines as what is "better" for one person may not be better for another.
In the matter of which rule set is "better", "better" is defined by which a person likes best or derives the most enjoyment from. By definition, that makes it subjective.
School post? I dont recal educational facilities being a part of the conversation at all. Could you cite which post in this thread brings that into question?

You clearly don't understand the whole concept of subjective vs objective.

Do you prefer red or green? = subjective question, because it is solely down to preference.

Is red or green a better choice when attempting to conceal something in a woodland environment? = An objective question it is possible to answer with empirical evidence by conducting various tests, and a person's preferences are utterly irrelevant to the result.

Equally "which flavour of jello is your favorite?" is subjective, because the answer is wholly based on your preference, "which flavour of jello is most popular?" can be answered objectively by sales data, consumer surveys etc.

We are not discussing which is most popular or even such things as balance, ease of learning, depth of play, and customization/options, we are discussing it on an individual level. On a personal basis. We arent talking sales of profits or anything like that. We are purely discussing it on which is"better" based on which an individual prefers or gets the most enjoyment from based on personal preferences and playstyle.

YOU might be, but the point other people are making is that its possible to measure the quality of the game in broadly speaking, objective terms.

But as was already mentioned, the quality of the game doesn't have a bearing on if you enjoy the game. Feel free to enjoy a lower quality game, or hate a higher quality one. Same goes with movies, or video games. The point is that games can be measured and determine how good or bad they are.

Your subjective opinion is irrelevant in such a discussion.

 EVIL INC wrote:
We are not discussing which is most popular or even such things as balance, ease of learning, depth of play, and customization/options, we are discussing it on an individual level. On a personal basis. We arent talking sales of profits or anything like that. We are purely discussing it on which is"better" based on which an individual prefers or gets the most enjoyment from based on personal preferences and playstyle.

No, we are supposed to be discussing the advantages of 40K, but it is difficult to list too many that are specific to 40K outside of models and background which aren't just "things I like about tabletop gaming that I'm applying to 40K"

The thread is about pros. Not cons.
Therefore, I am staying on topic and discussing the pros of how many players like the game on a personal level.
there are threads where the cons of those other topics are relevent.It may be you have not read the entire thread so thats fine.
if you want to have a seperate conversation about the objective issues go right ahead but shoehorning them into the subjective discussion of people liking 40k on a personal basis.
I understand that you guys want to start a different conversation from what the thread is about but I will stay on topic Just try not to confuse your conversation with ours.

What con have I stated?

None.

I have stated that many pros of 40K are not specific to 40K.

You making stuff up again Evi?

This thread has way too much "what is on/off topic" discussion rather than actual discussion of 40k / etc.

In the future, please do not argue what is on/off-topic repeatedly in a thread, as it will only serve to make the thread about that very discussion, rather than whatever was originally intended.

Locking as this thread in its current state does not add anything not covered elsewhere.