I was at my FLGS today and obviously the staff there are going to praise the new book due to sales. But there was a Dark Eldar veteran there. His army was wonderful (visually; i know nothing about dark eldar)

Safe to say, when he overheard us talking about the new book and what it was like, the guy got a little miffed. He obviously wasnt happy in the slightest, and the store worker was explaining that all it was, was learning different tactics. The book still has the same concept behind it. Swift, short attacks.

Do you think its because it forces Dark eldar players that perhaps abused a certain mechanic to re buy new models? Is the Army considered a lower TIER now?

Just thoughts is all. Nothing malicious please

My understanding is lots of things were nerfed, a vehicle was nerfed and increased in price and the Archon lost their AP2 weapon.

Its probably because your veteran thinks certain units got the nerfbat and certain crutch units DE players took have now disappeared, which does win votes with the many DE players with an the older codex..

In addition it also may have peeved him/her off as they may have created a certain conversion for said units and now they don't exist it may seem in their mind that the time they put in converting and paint up said models seems a but moot in their eyes which further loses brownie points for GW in their eyes..

Not that I blame them, I would be miffed if that happened to my CSM (happened with my Orks but I never had converted any of the old SC, so I would not feel as much bitterness as those who have done so)..

But surely if you love the idea of the game, you tend to buy armies because you love their lore...you love their look. It wouldnt bother me immensely..if they changed it too much.

I'm starting my orks up on wednesday. I dont like Ghazgulls rules but im using him as my mega armoured warboss If you're proud of your conversion, surely you'd use them as your archon or whatever?

The book itself isnt that bad is it :/ even with all the nerfs

From what I've read, it is because the majority of the previous DE meta was negated. Wyches, ravagers, beastpacks, and wracks all got respectively worse. Special characters were removed. It will force a lot of players to buy new units to become competitive again.

So is the book unplayable now :/ it seems that way hearing the way people go off about them haah

What about the non wych, ravager etc. things? Like Incubii and Kabalites. How are they?

I cant imagine ravagers being bad. Just not spammable. Saying that i dont know Dark Eldar. I dont like thinking armies are unplayable. Same with tyranids. Would be a shame

I think we're just having a doom and gloom period before people establish whats good again.

Ive watched alot of battle reports by the guy called 'Skarred cast' on youtube. he seems to kick ass with his DE. In fact most of the battle reports ive watched they seem to win. even against the likes of TAU and Eldar, who are deemed OP top tier armies~?

Generally the I think the codex is a bit better overall. There is certainly better internal balance as before there were some stupidly overcosted units making them unviable. Now Scourges, Reavers and even Mandrakes have a place. People are annoyed (and maybe rightly so) that GW went through a phase of releasing powerful codexes (Eldar, Space Marines, Tau) and for whatever reason they changed direction (probably for the better) and now release more balanced codexes. Trouble is those older powerful codexes still exist and people feel they should be on par in some way. I do have a few gripes of my own which I feel were missed opportunities.

1) It doesn't feel completely like a 7th ed codex. Many of the rules which are prevalent throughout the game (e.g. Ignores Cover, Skyfire) are absent from the codex. I groan on the inside when I come up against a Heldrake, not because I dislike Heldrakes per se but because it can wreck my army and I'm not given any tools to deal with it. I'm not saying every army should be able to deal with everything (even if some can), or that a dedicated skyfire unit fits DE fluff, but a technologically advanced race should probably have a good way of knocking planes out of the sky. Our own flyers are both suited to taking out ground targets.
2) Extremely lacklustre HQ choices. Urien is okish, the rest are bad. I knew it wouldn't happen but if they had only made an Archon on a jetbike model and put that option in the codex, it would have outsold the new archon/succubus/haemonculus models combined.
3) Combat drugs number 3 (+1 initiative), which lazy feth wrote that? Great now I can strike first against those other wyches nobody will run any more.
4) The +1WS warlord trait, which lazy feth wrote THAT and gave it to Lelith? Now I can hit a Keeper of Secrets on a 3, hurray.

pm713 wrote:
What about the non wych, ravager etc. things? Like Incubii and Kabalites. How are they?

Kabalites are basically the same but a point cheaper. Trueborn are also the same, but min squad size is five so you can't ride around with an Archon in a Venom with Blasters. Incubi are cheaper but don't have access to assault grenades. As before (and as with other assault units which can only move 6") they will wreck face if they get in, but will struggle to get in.

They may be rigged BRs, or he might have just got a handle on the new book quickly.

Reasons to dislike the new dex?

1. Special Characters. The two most popular characters were removed entirely. We are the only army, to my knowledge, that can't field their own supreme commander. My entire army was based, not just in play style, but in theme and design around one of those characters, neither of which have a generic analog. For people who spent days, weeks, or months collecting the parts and spending the time to custom build the old characters, it can feel very frustrating to find out they are now essentially worthless.

2. With the exception of one, none of the problem units, the ones that DE players felt couldn't be used effectively or had major problems, received fixes. (Mandrakes are the exception.) Many good units were made worse, even when these units weren't considered OP.

3. Many units and mechanics changed the way they function in ways that aren't better or worse. What this does mean is that the army needs to be played differently now. For those who spent several years learning the way the old book worked, it's an understandable frustration to be essentially starting over. Re-learning an army can be harder than learning it in the first place, because you have old tactics and ideas you need to 'un-learn.'

4. No psychic defense. In an edition where psykers are extremely powerful, this becomes a massive Achilles' heel for the army, which already has several to begin with. We had hoped that when psychic powers got so much more ripped, we would get some degree of protection, even if we didn't get them ourselves. Being left out in the cold, unprotected, is disappointing.

5. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Part of the draw of a new Codex is the shiny new things. New characters, new units, and new mechanics. It's a big part of what justifies the huge price tag, at least to my mind. With no new characters, no new units, and a paltry scattering of new equipment, it feels less like we're getting something for our money, and more like we're just being asked to pay sixty bucks to keep playing, like we're renewing a subscription or something.

Hopefully that sheds some lit on the situation. I'm not disappointed enough to quit the army, but I definitely wish they'd just skipped us for another couple of years.

Yeah i did think they may have fixed the reports as you never saw them rolling dice... Its just such a shame!

And i couldnt agree with you more on the fact that most other armies got alot more TLC in regards to new big shiny models!!!

The reason i was going slightly in depth with them is that they were my last army before i quite 40k a few years ago. And i was hoping they were still the same spear heading, tabling by turn 3 army they once were. But obviously not :/

I was trying to choose my army that i'll be re entering 40k with. 99% on orks with a hint towards dark eldar. the 1% being that fast hitting R""e train they used to be. but if they've changed so much i'll stick with orks i think

If you want a "fast hitting rape train," DE may still be they way to go. Salamanders or Space Wolves via Drop Pod also fulfill that role, in spades. If you've never played them before, I think you'll find the new codex no more difficult to master than the old one would have been. I think the frustration is mostly confined to players of the old codex.

this coming wednesday im investing some serious cash into an army. I have to make sure its the right one i need :/ i Have no idea about the new 7th ed rulebook nor the new Dark eldar book. So im just a little sceptical. I think orks may still be the better option

I am also a ''Veteran'' Dark Eldar player, and i'll say that the New Codex is a step in the right direction, but a step away from what we used to have. Units come and go in the competitive scene, that's a fact, but Dark Eldar have been around a long time and everyone and their mother owned a Ravager or 3. Now they are ineffective, people complain, until they now notice their Scourges, Reavers and Pain Engines that have been sitting patiently on the shelf are now the new hotness.

Things are different, Dark Eldar used to be a great Alpha Strike army, but couldn't take a hit. Dark Eldar are NOW, unquestionably, the best Beta Strike army in the game. It is possible to not have a single model on the table turn 1 as long as you go second (Formation allows for Deepstrike turn 1, rest comes in turn 2), and while they still can't take a hit, army wide FNP is a great boon. Not to mention 3+ Jink saves are just obnoxious on 70pt Transports.

So, chances are your ''Vet'' will either hang up his spandex because he doesn't want to adapt to the new playstyle (or doesn't like the new competitive unit models) or will pull up his trousers and take a look at his new codex, and pick out the gems.

As for if you are looking for a fast assault army, Dark Eldar are your best choice. Specifically the new Coven Supplement, units of 2 Incubi + Klaivex and the Court of the Archon. The amount of assault you can have in their faces turn 2, all rocking 3+ jink saves, it fun to watch armies try to shoot down...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I am also a ''Veteran'' Dark Eldar player, and i'll say that the New Codex is a step in the right direction, but a step away from what we used to have. Units come and go in the competitive scene, that's a fact, but Dark Eldar have been around a long time and everyone and their mother owned a Ravager or 3. Now they are ineffective, people complain, until they now notice their Scourges, Reavers and Pain Engines that have been sitting patiently on the shelf are now the new hotness.

Things are different, Dark Eldar used to be a great Alpha Strike army, but couldn't take a hit. Dark Eldar are NOW, unquestionably, the best Beta Strike army in the game. It is possible to not have a single model on the table turn 1 as long as you go second (Formation allows for Deepstrike turn 1, rest comes in turn 2), and while they still can't take a hit, army wide FNP is a great boon. Not to mention 3+ Jink saves are just obnoxious on 70pt Transports.

So, chances are your ''Vet'' will either hang up his spandex because he doesn't want to adapt to the new playstyle (or doesn't like the new competitive unit models) or will pull up his trousers and take a look at his new codex, and pick out the gems.

As for if you are looking for a fast assault army, Dark Eldar are your best choice. Specifically the new Coven Supplement, units of 2 Incubi + Klaivex and the Court of the Archon. The amount of assault you can have in their faces turn 2, all rocking 3+ jink saves, it fun to watch armies try to shoot down...

Dude that sounds frickken awesome. With me being new... Can you just explain to me how a Beta strike works? Like an example from your own hands? Obviously i know its a second turn offence... but how would it work? I love the idea of a glass cannon, but can i do well with them? with me being new??? Especially with me being out of the game for so long, i wouldnt have to worry about learning previously bad habits?

If i were to play a 1500 point game. what Would a beta strike army look like??

Being able to use Scourges without having them shot to pieces is excellent.

Making webway portal easier to understand and utilize is also quite nice.

Wyches sucking (more) doesn't bother me.

The important placed on Wracks/Haemonculi is boring and feels like a sales tactic.

I don't play DE anymore, but I ALWAYS went 2nd if I could. Everyone expects the Alpha Strike. Also, DE were the first 40k army I looked into, and I am NOT a glass cannon type of player. They were a lot of fun, and taught me the value of allowing my opponent enough room to make a mistake.

The new dex is causing me to question switching to them from my marines. I love it and the supplement. I want to build the carnival of pain. It only uses my absolute favorite units.

I love the idea of massed shooting crippling the enemy. Like removing a vital piece in a jenga tower and watching the whole thing collapse. I just don't think I'd have the tactical prowess to pull of such an army. But is it something you can work on?? The models are just gorgeous too. The new dex is having so much flakk thrown at it too, it's quite confusing.

luckily most of the models that are being shelved don't bother me. The Wych cult to me.. has been the worst part of the army. I've always preferred kabalites, reavers, hellions, and the idea I can fart out so many dice my opening will just leave him reeling.

How is your Meta with Supplements/Formations? Because i love the new Coven one, it adds lots of fun combat elements you can play and an odd bit of toughness to your army. But my 1500pt Beta Strike list is...

HQ: Succubus w/ Archite Glaive & Webway Portal and Haywire Grenades. 135pts.

Elites: 5 Mandrakes. 70pts
5 Mandrakes. 70pts
5 Incubi with Klaivex. 130pts.
DT: Raider w/ Nightshields. 70pts

Troops: 5 Warriors. 40pts
5 Warriors. 40pts.
DT: Venom w/ Duel Cannons 65pts
DT: Venom w/ Duel Cannons 65pts

Fast Attack: 6 Reavers w/ 2 Caltrops. 126pts
6 Reavers w/ 2 Caltrops. 126pts

Fortifications: Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay. 70pts

Coven Supplement Formation: Grotesquerie

Haemonculus w/ Scissorhands & Webway Portal and Parasites Kiss.. 120pts.

4 Grotesques + Abberation 185pts

4 Grotesques + Abberation 185pts.

Total 1497pts.

Turn 1, nothing on board save for Mandrakes if you wish. Mandrakes will be rocking 2+ cover save from the defense line, Stealth and Shrouded. Their entire job is to stay alive.

Turn 2. Every thing comes on a 2+. Haemunculi joins one Grot unit, Succubus the other. Proceed to deepstrike 30 T5/6 FNP wounds into your opponents back line. Reavers come from reserves, then Turbo Boost into a position to charge next turn, they will be rocking a 3+ Jink save. Incubi deepstrike in Raider to a similar position, also rocking 3+ Jink Save. Warriors Deepstrike somewhere to give long range splinter fire support.

Turn 3. Charge. With Everything. Every unit is deadly. Those Incubi put out 23 Ws 5 Str 4 AP 2 attacks on the charge. The Grotesques do 29 Str 5 poisoned 4+ (insta-kill on 6's), not including HQ's or buffs from Formation (roll at start of game, get either Rage, Shred, 4+ FNP, Fleet, +1str or +1 T). Reavers throw out 2d6 Str 6 Rending HOW before they even strike!

I play this list, and by god it's miles more fun then the 'old' Dark Eldar. Screw Venom/Ravager spam, give me Space Elf Hulks on Drugs anytime!

Alex

.

The internal balance is still poor. Mandrakes and Incubii are unusable in a competitive setting. The flyers are average but dont shine. Ravagers got worse. Wyches are still incredibly flimsy. Wracks got worse. Baron disappeared. No more high init AP2 in CC.

They lost their obvious big crutch Beastpack and Baron, but the rest of the book hasnt really been lifted up to compensate. Its not an unusable book, but it is very much along the lines of the Grey Knights and Ork books wherein a lot of the unit choices are really sub-optimal when compared to others in the slots. Which is poor design. All units should be roughly equally viable.

On the plus side Scourges, Webway Portals and big units of Warriors improved.

Dark Eldar look more and more fun to play every day. One question though...

What is your defense against an alpha strike list? Something along the lines of GK dropping in and a dread knight dumping a heavy incinerator on your mandrakes? Just curious is all, DE have my eye right now...And I don't have a non-imperial army to play around with.

Dark Eldar are ridiculously now with 5+ FNP army wide. 3+ Jink Save. If not for my Dreadknight and Wave Serpent, I don't know what I will do against them.

bibotot wrote:
Dark Eldar are ridiculously now with 5+ FNP army wide. 3+ Jink Save. If not for my Dreadknight and Wave Serpent, I don't know what I will do against them.

Well, to be fair, Wave Serpents are pretty much good against most things.

My understanding is DE are now a great ally for CWE! I'm not sure that'd what DE players necessarily wanted though...having to purchase a second $50 book to make your army effective doesn't make for the best book.

I do think the new DE book is good, but there are some things that make it a little annoying if you are an existing DE player. Just takes some readjusting and it can sting a bit when some of your models can't be used anymore. Most complaints (and the things that annoy me) are based around Wyches, HQs, and a couple other random things.

Troops for DE have had uses other than just scoring for a long time (5th ed and prior). Wyches recently were good for jumping around sticking Haywires on vehicles or tying up expensive enemy units in combat. Losing haywires and Shardnets essentially neutralized those roles, at least for me. The hit to Wyches also kinda hurts Venom spam, at least the way I ran it, gotta divert points away from Venoms and troops in order to bring alternate anti-tank options. Wracks are out as troops too. So from my point of view that just leaves Warriors, which I can either take cheap just to get another Venom or two, or a bigger unit in a Raider with splinter racks. I often would take a unit of warriors in a Raider in the past codex, but that was also when I was taking the Duke. So at this point my troops will likely be min troops (warriors) in Venoms, leave them in reserves as long as possible to try to score late.

The HQ changes are a bit frustrating, my converted/alternate Baron, Duke, and Lady Malys can't be used. Those were the only HQs I used to use and they had units that ran with them. Hellions with the Baron, without the Baron they lose a ton of survivability, aren't troops, and don't really have a role. Warriors with Duke for better poison, losing duke hurts all the arena troops too (Wyches, Reavers, Hellions). I also ran Bloodbrides with Lady Malys, but that was more of a fluff thing. I don't really have a use for any of the current HQ choices other than as a portal caddy and to fill the required HQ slot.

Other choices are just kinda bleh, I wish the fliers were better or cheaper to justify the awesome models. Mandrakes are better, but not enough to make me want to take them. Incubi are 'better' just because there aren't many other ways to get AP2 in CC in the codex. I'm not sure why I would ever take Wracks, I like Grotesques much better. Ravagers got kinda borderline by losing the ability to move fullspeed and fire everything.


All that said, I do love things about the codex. I'm so happy Scourges are good, those models are amazing and deserve to be used. Reavers lost some utility, but hit a lot harder in CC and are a lot cheaper, I like them better now. Again, awesome models too. Couple that with the Real Space Raiders detachment and I'm happy with my lists just being 6 fast attacks slots worth of Scourges/Reavers, a Haemonculus Portaling in with a big unit of Grotesques, and some troops (doesn't really matter what). I just like Scourges and Reavers. I wish Hellions could join the party but they're benchwarmers for now. Lots of people like the Court of the Archon too, not sold on it yet though.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Dark Eldar look more and more fun to play every day. One question though...

What is your defense against an alpha strike list? Something along the lines of GK dropping in and a dread knight dumping a heavy incinerator on your mandrakes? Just curious is all, DE have my eye right now...And I don't have a non-imperial army to play around with.

Hide some units out of LOS with a comms relay, reserve everything else. Thats about it... outside of allies.

I'm not a huge fan of the book. The only benefit for me though Is that I played a heamonuli cult style army anyway and ran 2 talos and a chromos - now I can field them in squadrens and still take a ravage and/or other heavy options.

I think the book isn't bad, but I feel they ripped the soul out of it and left us with a dry husk of a codex

They neutred much of the faction's falvor by removing IC's for no reason other than greed and vindictiveness. They also removed many fluffy rules and interesting FoC-chart manipulations to coerce you into playing Unbound, and bumped certain characters into the LoW slot for no reason other than to force you to start using Unbound in your games. Again, for the sake of greed.

So basically, people dislike it for the same reason they've disliked every codex since Tyranids.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They neutred much of the faction's falvor by removing IC's for no reason other than greed and vindictiveness. They also removed many fluffy rules and interesting FoC-chart manipulations to coerce you into playing Unbound, and bumped certain characters into the LoW slot for no reason other than to force you to start using Unbound in your games. Again, for the sake of greed.

So basically, people dislike it for the same reason they've disliked every codex since Tyranids.

Not one character in this codex was made into a Lord of war..

Nope, nor in Tyranids or Imperial Guard. But it did happen in Space Wolves and Orks.

You see it every new edition, every new codex, every new model, every new everything. You have players who are so set in their ways or have found a favrite exploit/unintended loophole and dont want to see it change. You learn to make your own decisions instead of blindly listening to some guy spouting off his sour grapes.
Look at it and decide for yourself if you like it or not.

It's funny because, the people who decide for themselves that they don't like it are the ones who get labeled "set in their ways or have found a favrite exploit/unintended loophole and dont want to see it change."

Only when the shoe fits in terms of why and how they made the decision. You will notice that those are the ones who are always the most vocal and the ones who take the greatest pains to convince (read browbeat) others to agree with them or else.

The problems of the old codex, bar a couple, were issues of edition rather than ones of internal balance. A lot of things broke when sixth dropped (webway portals for instance) and a huge chunk of the army was rendered largely ineffective or relegated to unusual roles (see wyches and haywire grenades). The book has largely been hailed, and loved, by the Dark Eldar community as one of the most balanced books that games workshop has released to date.

The problem with the new book is that we were already suffering as a stand alone army. It has almost no buffs and a lot of unnecessary nerfs. Not sure what others have experienced, but the only reason I have found my army doing better is due to access to holo-fields, I mean disruption pods, I mean night-shields (all mechanically the same thing now). Power from Pain kind of helps, but it feels forced and cheap. You used to have to earn it.

They also took out a huge chunk of general options or split them up so that most are now only usable on a couple specific units. You using a power spear? Only swords. You want an electro-corrosive whip on your succubus? Not any more. Practically every character in the army could previously take a venom blade, one of the most popular options, but that is now relegated only to wracks and haemonculi.

The book works, but it feels cookie cutter and unsatisfying.

If its a new codex and you can't run what you use to it is awful until someone figures out something to do with it then its op.
In short people normally don't like change if they can't stay the same, and people normally are scared to adapt to new things that seem op (see fliers, imperial knights, super-heavy, apoc etc etc)

 EVIL INC wrote:
Only when the shoe fits in terms of why and how they made the decision. You will notice that those are the ones who are always the most vocal and the ones who take the greatest pains to convince (read browbeat) others to agree with them or else.

I haven't noticed that all, actually.

The complaints about the latest batch of codices that I've most frequently seen surround the nonsensical and arbitrary removal of flavor in the way of character/unit/special rules deletions because of a petty vindictiveness toward 3rd party modeling companies and a desire to force you to use their crappy LoW/Unbound game features, lazy and sometimes even counter-intuitive balancing and game design, and a general invalidating of the armies that people have spent money on and been using for years, all wrapped up as a product that's sold for a more inflated price despite having objectively less content then its previous incarnations.

I Completley get that people would be annoyed if they had built up an army that they can no longer use to the full extent it once was.. but alot of the hobby is collecting part of the range surely?

"Hey those wyches look awesome, and them hellions kick ass! imma get me some of them!" not all the time granted. But if you're an enthusiast of an army then isnt that what this hobby is about?? collecting, painting, and fighting with a force that you want? Just because some people specifically fight buy an army a certain way, to use exactly how its supposed to play, and then rules change? if they didnt hw boring would the game become after 20 years. You'd have a ridiculous power creep because rather then everything being overpowered, they'd be brought down to the same level and start again. (EVENTUALLY; INCLUDING TAU, ELDAR AND SPACE MARINES)

If you're playing the army from a brand new point of view, and have no models what so ever, and you're learning anew, which a relative knowledge of how the army is supposed to work, can you do it? Or are the gripes about how the previous edition has changed???

Like i stated earlier.. im going to be investing about £500.. $800 in an army this coming wednesday. The models ive always loved are Orks and Dark Eldar... but i prefer the idea how Dark eldar play. I just dont think I have the tactical prowess to play them. Can i learn it? If you dive in at the deep end do you think it would help you learn quicker??

Same boat Andy. Orks and dark eldar. I'm purchasing the entire carnival of pain formTion.

Just another question i want to ask, is it possible to play a dark eldar army without putting a damn farseer in every list!! -.-

In my opinion yes.. you just have no psychic phase. Then again neither does tau and they do just fine.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Same boat Andy. Orks and dark eldar. I'm purchasing the entire carnival of pain formTion.

How are you going about deciding?? I feel like Dark eldar are alot more tactical, But do you think that may come with rewards???

I've made a list with orks... and i pretty much like everything in the army, barr a couple of things. So when i wrote my list i was really excited!! i havent had chance with the new dark eldar yet so i dont quite know :( i love how all my favourite models seem to be the ones running the show. Scourges, Reavers, Talos, Kabalite warrs... Raiders... and i LOVE the flyers. I love the idea of massed shooting too

Speaking personally, it seems like they removed a lot of flavour from the book.

The new PfP mechanic is just boring. It's functional (just), but also very boring (player-interaction, what's that?) and seems to go against their theme a bit.

Many unique items/abilities got replaced with generic ones. To name a few:
- Urien's regeneration (which is a huge part of his fluff) is now just IWND. Yawn. Also, he lost his ability to increase the strength of Grotesques in the army.
- Night Shields are now just Stealth (I'll try to contain my excitement).
- Something like 3 different weapons had their unique effects changed to Concussive. Really? Concussive? I don't think I've seen that ability come into play since 4th. And why would we, one of the fastest races in terms of initiative values, care about making enemies strike at I1?
- Venom Blades are now unique to the two units that don't want them.
- There are no longer two kinds of Haemonculi (just the one no one ever used), nor can they be taken as 3-per-HQ Slot and they no longer make Wracks troops.
- Archons have no access whatsoever to AP2 weapons. "HAHAHAHA, yes, fear me mortals... oh... you're wearing armour... nevermind then."
- Not to worry though, GW did leave us the Djin Blade as an artefact. Remember that really bad item no one ever took? Well, obviously the best way to improve it would be to increase its cost by 50%. Wait, what problem were we fixing again?
- Wych weapons have lost their interesting effects in exchange for... well naff-all actually.
- And, of course, virtually all the SCs have now been removed. Presumably because most of them didn't have models. So, thank you GW for instead focussing on making an Archon model with the world's most boring pose and a Haemonculus model with an emo haircut. I look forward to never owning either. Also, why do I appear to be paying twice the price of the old book for less content?
- Our Warlord Table includes '+1WS' and 'Fear'. And, naturally, 2 of our 3 surviving special characters use those traits. Excuse me for a moment while I fantasise about ripping out all the 40k codex and rulebook pages that reference the Fear rule, scrunching them into a ball, and then ramming them down Kirby's word-hole.


Plus, a lot of the other changes just seem unnecessary:
- Splinter Cannon was nerfed to salvo (stupid idea, but whatever), which would be bad enough... except that it also got a price-hike. Why?
- Ravager lost its ability to move 12" and fire all 3 weapons, and went up in cost. Sorry, kids, but it's year 4 in our 8-year cycle so its the Ravager's turn to be crap for the next 4 years. Why not buy something else instead?
- Wyches lost their good weapons *and* their grenades... but got no point-drop (while our other, better,troop choice did), nor any other bonuses to actually make them worthwhile.
- Couldn't they have just made Shadowfield saves non-rerollable, rather than just jacking up the price?
- Did the Liquifier Gun really warrant a nerf?
- Not a change per se, but more a lack thereof - can we have one good anti-flier weapon for our ground troops/vehicles? Just one? Hell, I'll settle for a anti-vehicle gun with either TL or which isn't single-shot.

I get how these are all nerfs. Completely. But does anyone think they're needed? (Again I've been out of the game a while, I don't know the balance of the game)

Are dark eldar still a strong army, even with the changes??

People complain mostly because they are people.

Yea, some complaints are justified, but most are just overreactions, seeing the worst in everything or plain wrong.

Not even all units who people cry "nerfed" are ACTUALLY nerfed. some are possibly buffed (hard to tell without testing), or mere change with neither nerf or buff.


Yes, the DE is still strong.
It wont compete with Eldar, Codex Marines, or maxed-cheese tau/daemons, but these guys are the fault, not the DE.
They fare perfectly well with orks, AM, SW, GK, SoB, nids, CSM, DA and cheeseless tau/daemons.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Not even all units who people cry "nerfed" are ACTUALLY nerfed. some are possibly buffed (hard to tell without testing), or mere change with neither nerf or buff.

Would you care to name some of these units?

 Andy140491 wrote:
I Completley get that people would be annoyed if they had built up an army that they can no longer use to the full extent it once was.. but alot of the hobby is collecting part of the range surely?

"Hey those wyches look awesome, and them hellions kick ass! imma get me some of them!" not all the time granted. But if you're an enthusiast of an army then isnt that what this hobby is about?? collecting, painting, and fighting with a force that you want? Just because some people specifically fight buy an army a certain way, to use exactly how its supposed to play, and then rules change? if they didnt hw boring would the game become after 20 years. You'd have a ridiculous power creep because rather then everything being overpowered, they'd be brought down to the same level and start again. (EVENTUALLY; INCLUDING TAU, ELDAR AND SPACE MARINES)

If you're playing the army from a brand new point of view, and have no models what so ever, and you're learning anew, which a relative knowledge of how the army is supposed to work, can you do it? Or are the gripes about how the previous edition has changed???

Like i stated earlier.. im going to be investing about £500.. $800 in an army this coming wednesday. The models ive always loved are Orks and Dark Eldar... but i prefer the idea how Dark eldar play. I just dont think I have the tactical prowess to play them. Can i learn it? If you dive in at the deep end do you think it would help you learn quicker??

This actually highlights some of the biggest problems with the Dark Eldar book from the point of someone who does want to buy models because they look nice. Theres SO MANY wonderful miniatures available for Dark Eldar, but some of them are so much worse than other units in the book it is almost a waste of money if you want to use them on the tabletop.

The internal balance is horrible. Someone should be able to buy a boxed set of nearly anything and depending on the weapon load outs and upgrades or attached characters be able to make them work. Unfortunately that's not that case in a lot of instances in the DE book. And even for people who min/max and load up on the most effective units possible in a book, they still get shot off the table by wave serpents.

Reavers off the top of my heads.

how many eldar players wanted to play an all reavers army?And they are still our performed by taking eldar as ally .
On the other hand wrecks were run by a lot of people. Nerfing wychs is like making sm tacticals bad.

I hate the desing GW has for armies now. They give you a codex, but it ain't a full army. To play the real thing you either need to run ally, because your army doesn't have anti tank or strong msu units or counter units or you have to use a formation like tyranids.
It sucks that when playing DE you may not be sure which of the 2 HQs you will take, but your 100% sure you will be runing a farseer.

That is bad design and money grabing from people.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Not even all units who people cry "nerfed" are ACTUALLY nerfed. some are possibly buffed (hard to tell without testing), or mere change with neither nerf or buff.

The ones I can think of that might fit the descriptions are Mandrakes, maybe you could classify Incubi in that group, and the HQs.
Mandrakes did improve, just not enough I think.
Incubi aren't really buffed per say, but because they're now one of the only ways to get AP2 in CC their role has expanded. They did lose access to assault grenades though.
Generic HQs all had a role change. Not really CC beasts or used to change the force org or buff units anymore. Instead they are portal holders.
Beast packs maybe too? I never used beast packs though so can't say for sure. It is weird that a unit of just beast masters (without the beasts) is better than an equivalent unit of Hellions.
Technically Reavers could be classified that way too, ya they lost the cool blade vane mechanic, but hit they like a hammer now and are cheaper. I don't know anyone who thinks they got nerfed though.

Makumba wrote:
how many eldar players wanted to play an all reavers army?And they are still our performed by taking eldar as ally .
On the other hand wrecks were run by a lot of people. Nerfing wychs is like making sm tacticals bad.

I hate the desing GW has for armies now. They give you a codex, but it ain't a full army. To play the real thing you either need to run ally, because your army doesn't have anti tank or strong msu units or counter units or you have to use a formation like tyranids.
It sucks that when playing DE you may not be sure which of the 2 HQs you will take, but your 100% sure you will be runing a farseer.

That is bad design and money grabing from people.

Coulnt agree with you more. Why Should who loves Grey knights need to ally Space marines or inquisition. Why does someone who love Dark eldar feel they need to ally eldar. Its ridiculous. Bring back strong stand alone codices, with full background and FLAVOUR and stop making buyers and players mix and match with armies they feel they need to fill a gap with.

My problems with the new Codex

Took out interesting and flavourful characters and got............FA
Talk about who Wyches are awesoem CC fighters, a major part of the whole DE culture and kept them mediocre in CC and crap at actually killing stuff - awesome. They are WS 4 FFS. Happy to loose haywire grenades but why are they not WS5 or 6 and Poisoned Weapons -0 like the fluff - to help you forge that narrative.
Flickerfields - awesome fun - now we forgot hwo to put them on vehicles for....reasons.
Ravagers - everyone has one - so best screw them up.
Lots of cools stuff for Horm Covens - oh but f you want to use them at their best - oh thats another £30 and FU.
Archons - deadily CC adversary's guarded by the elite CC Incubi - cept thats not how they work - obviously. Of course you can't have a AP 2 weapon option - why would you need that?

Plus side:
Nice bomber kit..........thats about it I think

EDIT:mistake writing, delete.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Right here, Mr Morden just complained they got screwed up.

I don't see Reavers in the list Morden put up.

Unless you mean Ravagers, which are on the list.

 Andy140491 wrote:
I get how these are all nerfs. Completely. But does anyone think they're needed? (Again I've been out of the game a while, I don't know the balance of the game)

Are dark eldar still a strong army, even with the changes??

They're really in the same boat as they were before. Very competitive if you ally Eldar, and probably middle/low tier if not.
Otherwise, they are sort of a darkhorse army. They can steamroll through a tournament if they pull the right matchups. Or they can get a bad matchup or two and get tabled in 3 turns. Generally there isn't much middle ground with Dark Eldar, win big or lose big. Once us older players shift points away from HQ, troops and Heavies (unless you're coven) and into Fast Attack, then to me the power feels about the same.

The non allied list that seem to be the better of the bunch are either Coven lists, or Real Space Raiders taking as many Fast Attacks as possible (Fast Attacks = Reavers and Scourges). Add some slight variations depending on what your HQ portals are attached to.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:


Right here, Mr Morden just complained they got screwed up.

I don't see Reavers in the list Morden put up.

Unless you mean Ravagers, which are on the list.

Yea, misread that one XD

Seen plenty of "Reavers got ruined" posts though.

Happens, between Raiders, Ravagers, and Reavers, I get a little lost with DE.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:


Right here, Mr Morden just complained they got screwed up.

I don't see Reavers in the list Morden put up.

Unless you mean Ravagers, which are on the list.

Yea, misread that one XD

Seen plenty of "Reavers got ruined" posts though.

It depends on how you played them. For my the lists I played, Reavers see completely useless now. I have a bunch, so I'll be adjusting my play style once I get over my ennui. They still CAN be good, but it's a disappointing change. Kind of like someone boosting your Corvette and giving you a Vibe instead. And then everyone tells you not to complain, since the Vibe is so much "better." After all, it gets better mileage, is safer, and is much cheaper to maintain, so if you're disappointed, you're just a whiner. That's kind of how it feels.

Guys, i understand lots of people are upset and have every right to be, but complaining about the old codex won't help the OP. He is looking at starting the Dark Eldar RIGHT NOW, so, doesn't it only make sense if we can try give him tips on how to make a competitive army on the current codex. He won't know the so-called glory days of Venom Spam (Yawn), Triple Ravagers (Sigh) and being nothing more then an Eldar Supplement because all the rest of the 'flavor' was basically unplayable. What he wants to know is what can he do now, with the current codex that fit his theme of ''Fast Assault'' and ''Precise Strikes'', and that we can help him with.

The units he likes ARE the good units. Warriors in Raiders have gotten buffed in the extreme! 10 Warriors (No special weapons) in a Raider with Splinter Racks + Night Shields is 165pts. Around the same as the same unit last codex, except the Raider can jink for a 3+ Save making it much more reliable, and even when Jinking the Warriors fire unimpaired. Not to mention how the new PFP benefits exactly this kind of unit. Take 2-3 gun boats like these as a good starting force for any army.

Scourges used to be unusable, no one can deny that, plainly because they competed with Trueborn who where better at their job. Now 2 units Scourges make their way into most of my lists, Haywire Blasters & Heat Lances are some of the best anti-tank in the game and you get 4 of them for 120pts! Reavers used to be fun and flavorful, but ultimately useless because they did something the Dark Eldar already did, Anti Infantry. Now they are something legitimately useful, providing cheap, hard hitting and brutally fast assault units. Most importantly, the new detachment benefits these two units greatly, and an army with Scourges and Reavers working in concert is actually an effective counter to Serpent Spam. Speaking from experience, Reavers in assault wreck Wave Serpents and are resistant to their non-shield fire, and if he does fire them then the Scourges will have a field day.

Flyers are cheap and can throw 4 Large Blasts on the turn they come on. Nothing more has to be said...

Pain Engines have been buffed also, being able to take Talos in units is great because you can swap the leading man to tank. Special mention goes to the Coven Formations, the Dark Artisan formation and Corpsethief formations both show how powerful Talosi/Chronus are.

Honestly, people shouldn't complain about losing flavor they never used competitively, and if you didn't play competitively then why should you be overly bothered by the nerf in rules. Winning is nice, but no unit in the codex is unusable, Yes, that includes Wyches. People never used Electrocorrosive whips, don't pretend they did. And Special characters come and go with the editions, just ask Nadu Fireheart or Doomrider.

So basically Andy, if you want any specific help on what Dark Eldar you'd have to buy for a certain type of army, send me a PM with what units you like, what themes you enjoy and a point cost and i'll do my best to make an army list for you that works to fit that.

Alex

Hmm I read first post, last post, and a couple in between, looks a lot like OP was asking why people dislike he new codex, not how to play Warhammer, but maybe I missed that somewhere in the thread,

Anyway, while the new dex is playable, and Courts are cool as gak and so are the new beastpacks, the main reason to dislike this is, is that it's a pretty terribly written entry into 7th. Almost every single competitive model from 6th ed was nerfed. By that i don't mean rebalanced, and brought in line with the rest of the dex, by that I mean nerfed into unplayability. So while the new dex does have cool new offerings, it's not so much about what we gained, but the cost of transition. It's not about "whining that my army got weaker" as some particularly narrow minded players like to label all negative feedback to poorly implemented changes. We now have a new codex, except the new one has just as many unplayable units as before. So while either book could be argued as inherently better than the other, and you WILL hear good arguments for both side, to me the real issue is the cost of transition ($70 before DLC over here) and the fact that I have to rebuy my entire army if I want it to playable like my last one was, just leads me to one big question - why? The book is no more balanced than the last. There is no new models at all to be excited about. A bunch of my favourite HQs have been nerfed. And my entire army just went from top tier to unplayable.

Exactly why anyone but a Dark Eldar player who owns absolutely every model in existence, and multiple copies (sorry, I don't own that kinda cash, and have to carefully plan every purchase for my army) would be anything but disappointed by what will likely be our only update from anywhere between 2-6 years to come, is hard for me to comprehend, Even if I did own the entire range I'd still be kinda bummed, it's like, meh, ok I can use some of my new models on he tabletop, would have been nice if they had left the excellent balance they had established with our troop choices (3 arguably 4 playable troops, limited to just warriors now), or the well balanced Ravager, and even well balanced Khymerae, who without the Baron are really quite fine and fun. Instead, every single model from our competitive core was nerfed beyond reason, and to anyone who thinks that to be a coincidence I envy your obliviousness to GWs manipulation of your wallet here. I now have 75 Khymerea, 9 Venoms, 18 Wracks, 3 Ravagers, a Duke Sliscus conversion, a Baron conversion, and a handful of gak like Trueborn & Reavers sitting on my shelf, so I guess for anytime in e foreseeable future, I am no longer a Dark Eldar player because my collection is now composed largely of the worst units in the dex.

Well, that's an exaggeration as I'm obviously just going to continue to use my 5E DE book. Which kinda supports my point. This release was useless. Happy for all the people who owned a bunched of clawed fiends and court of the archons however. Glad you are now forced to use some different models in competitive / sensible builds. Too bad for the rest of us whiners too stuck in our ways unable to make our own decisions and just listening to people blindly spouting off our grapes, aye. Because there's nothing worse than people who don't formulate opinions properly and just lump everything said from a certain perpestive into one category, am I right!

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They neutred much of the faction's falvor by removing IC's for no reason other than greed and vindictiveness. They also removed many fluffy rules and interesting FoC-chart manipulations to coerce you into playing Unbound, and bumped certain characters into the LoW slot for no reason other than to force you to start using Unbound in your games. Again, for the sake of greed.

So basically, people dislike it for the same reason they've disliked every codex since Tyranids.

Not one character in this codex was made into a Lord of war..

FOC manipulations were replaced with the more open-ended formations detachments, not with unbound. I've never seen anyone run unbound.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hmm I read first post, last post, and a couple in between, looks a lot like OP was asking why people dislike he new codex, not how to play Warhammer, but maybe I missed that somewhere in the thread,

Anyway, while the new dex is playable, and Courts are cool as gak and so are the new beastpacks, the main reason to dislike this is, is that it's a pretty terribly written entry into 7th. Almost every single competitive model from 6th ed was nerfed. By that i don't mean rebalanced, and brought in line with the rest of the dex, by that I mean nerfed into unplayability. So while the new dex does have cool new offerings, it's not so much about what we gained, but the cost of transition. It's not about "whining that my army got weaker" as some particularly narrow minded players like to label all negative feedback to poorly implemented changes. We now have a new codex, except the new one has just as many unplayable units as before. So while either book could be argued as inherently better than the other, and you WILL hear good arguments for both side, to me the real issue is the cost of transition ($70 before DLC over here) and the fact that I have to rebuy my entire army if I want it to playable like my last one was, just leads me to one big question - why? The book is no more balanced than the last. There is no new models at all to be excited about. A bunch of my favourite HQs have been nerfed. And my entire army just went from top tier to unplayable.

Exactly why anyone but a Dark Eldar player who owns absolutely every model in existence, and multiple copies (sorry, I don't own that kinda cash, and have to carefully plan every purchase for my army) would be anything but disappointed by what will likely be our only update from anywhere between 2-6 years to come, is hard for me to comprehend, Even if I did own the entire range I'd still be kinda bummed, it's like, meh, ok I can use some of my new models on he tabletop, would have been nice if they had left the excellent balance they had established with our troop choices (3 arguably 4 playable troops, limited to just warriors now), or the well balanced Ravager, and even well balanced Khymerae, who without the Baron are really quite fine and fun. Instead, every single model from our competitive core was nerfed beyond reason, and to anyone who thinks that to be a coincidence I envy your obliviousness to GWs manipulation of your wallet here. I now have 75 Khymerea, 9 Venoms, 18 Wracks, 3 Ravagers, a Duke Sliscus conversion, a Baron conversion, and a handful of gak like Trueborn & Reavers sitting on my shelf, so I guess for anytime in e foreseeable future, I am no longer a Dark Eldar player because my collection is now composed largely of the worst units in the dex.

Well, that's an exaggeration as I'm obviously just going to continue to use my 5E DE book. Which kinda supports my point. This release was useless. Happy for all the people who owned a bunched of clawed fiends and court of the archons however. Glad you are now forced to use some different models in competitive / sensible builds. Too bad for the rest of us whiners too stuck in our ways unable to make our own decisions and just listening to people blindly spouting off our grapes, aye. Because there's nothing worse than people who don't formulate opinions properly and just lump everything said from a certain perpestive into one category, am I right!

So basically you're saying that whilst the new book is still playable, you're more then likely going to have to run certain lists so that you can actually have fun and do well? Due to so many of the units being nerfed too much?

Well yes. While that applies to the new book, it also applies to the old book, neither was perfect. I don't imagine the cost of entry into the new book would be any worse than the cost of entry into the last (assuming current day prices for both), but I've already paid that cost, not interested in doing it again, with almost nothing to show from my past purchases, and a couple of Venoms at best to transition into the new list, and only because 2 crappy mandatory Warrior squads that I dont even want to run, but now have to because the ONE other troop option left in the dex is now unplayable bad. I don't mind getting a few new models here, but GW should encourage me to do with tempting new units or balances fixes on new stuff to add to my army, but this greedy push by GW to force me to buy an entire new army worth of models and putting everything I already bought from them back on the shelf, all the while the cost of their entire range has been slowly climbing, is too much for me. Day 1 DLC should not exist, forcing every single DE army into 1 troop choice when we used to have 4 viable ones should not have happened. The nerf of Ravagers (who were very balanced) just to narrow us into buying new AT models, necessary to compete with adding the the 40k universe like Knights and LoW, should not have happened. They haven't fixed the balance at all in this new dex, they've kept it just as bad and are offering no real improvement at all, more of the same unplayable units plagued through the dex, while asking more than ever for your participation fee.

I'm a Nid player too, and we all know how bad that release was and how badly recieved it was almost globally by the community. So take heed to what I'm about to say, as a Nid player, I genuinely think this release is worse. Nids at least got 2 new models, and were allowed to keep at least 500 points in playable models for the Flyrant HQs, and were allowed to keep some units without a specific model that are easily converted from regular units (Swarmlord and Old One Eye). So even though we still had the core of our previous army nerfed to oblivion and lost a bunch of units won't out models, it was on smaller scale, and we at least had some cool new stuff, and replacing the holes in our build was easier because we didn't have as much nerfed. It might only be marginally better, but these are small blessings DE weren't lucky enough to receive.



The development team isn't even trying anymore, basically just saying, "Hey, here's nothing new, we just want your money!". I didn't think things would go downhill from the Nid release, but meh people keep supporting GW in purchases so I guess it's enough to keep people interested, and that's all a company looking to slash every expense cares about right now. I'd be shocked if more than a days work went into this new dex, but if I was given a million dollars to guess the correct amount of time spent rebalancing the units, I'd guess about 3 hours, including the time it took to work out which units don't have and pressing delete, for no other reason to spite the other modelling companies out there at the cost of the 40k players money and gaming experience. I guess sometimes, less is more. At least for GW it is.

I can see where you're coming from shuppet. Us that are now interested will have this as our intial purchases while you feel cheated by your past ones.. I feel that's a big reason the haemonculus supplement was what it was. It Was like.. we are sorry for taking away one of the more popular last troop choices but look! You can play them in this book for an extra $60! But with our new restrictions. I personally love and am going to build the new carnival of pain.. however I can see why to a vet it's a slap in the face

Yeah. All in all, there's nothing WRONG with the new dex in comparison to the old one, except maybe eh fact that it has less units. But for $70 and the price of rebuking a brand new army, is it really "whiny" of me to expect some improvement? Even one new unit? Improved balance? More options?

Instead all I have is objectively similar or worse, very hard to see an improvement here.


This is why it's so hard for players of other armies to see the gripes DE players may have with what they've received. Other armies see Haywire Scourges, 6 FA slots and army wide FnP, have to play against it and are like "wow new DE codex, anyone complaining about this is a whiner, I know everything best firsthand because I've now played against once" /neckbeardvoice. But really, as a DE player it's hard to view it as anything but a sidegrade, at best. It would be quite easy to call someone a power gamer for the attitude shown that all internal balance issues make you a whiner, and because your codex got overall stronger (debatably) you should be nothing but happy With the changes.

I have to admit shuppet..When i read your first thread i did just think you were hurting because the new book wasnt to your taste. BUT; when you put it like you have done... i couldnt agree more. You know if everyone read thatb im surprised they'd WANT to start a new DE army.

i suppose its like teaching a dog to sit. then punishing it. Here buy these Wyches! and stick them all in these venoms and spend hella dolla! NO!!! NO! DONT BUY THEM THEY SUCK! BUY THESE REALLY BAD SCOURGES NOW! you'd eventually be pissed.

Shuppet echos my feelings on this dex as well. If your new to DE then the codex is actually very good. It does have some very good point effective units However, existing DE players will see more like a slap in the face as many of their current units have been down graded or even flat out removed in the case of many special characters.

I also agree about it not feeling like a true 7th edition dex. 7th edition has a huge list of special traits however, not many of them actually show up in the DE codex. No skyfire/interceptor. No LOW except for what you can get on allies. It really is just a sideways shift from the old 5th edition codex and doesn't feel at all like something new.

Yeaaaaahhhhh I'll make orks my current project i think.... Dark eldar dont seem that fun anymore haha

Overall the book is very well done IMO. I think the flyers should have Vector Dancer, because why would they not, but that's beside the point. The Coven units are now obnoxious, which my DE friend played frequently before the new book anyway. I think anything that Ignores Cover (Eldar, Tau), have a much easier time killing Raiders, since the Flickerfield is gone on them. But, meh. I still think it's pretty deadly of a book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
No skyfire/interceptor. No LOW except for what you can get on allies. It really is just a sideways shift from the old 5th edition codex and doesn't feel at all like something new.

I like the book, but I do have to agree. No LoW was weird, and straight up removing Vect was a slap in the face. No Ignores Cover, Skyfire, Interceptor, all of that kinda sucks to not have.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Overall the book is very well done IMO. I think the flyers should have Vector Dancer, because why would they not, but that's beside the point. The Coven units are now obnoxious, which my DE friend played frequently before the new book anyway. I think anything that Ignores Cover (Eldar, Tau), have a much easier time killing Raiders, since the Flickerfield is gone on them. But, meh. I still think it's pretty deadly of a book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
No skyfire/interceptor. No LOW except for what you can get on allies. It really is just a sideways shift from the old 5th edition codex and doesn't feel at all like something new.

I like the book, but I do have to agree. No LoW was weird, and straight up removing Vect was a slap in the face. No Ignores Cover, Skyfire, Interceptor, all of that kinda sucks to not have.

Which is kind of odd, you'd think being raiders who invade settlements and often enjoy their 'hunts' through all sorts of hazardous terrain you'd think they'd know how to catch prey in cover.

I was in the same place as you, OP.

I really liked DE from across the table, and I was looking to start a new army. Then rumors of 7th ed came out and I froze my purchase waiting for the new codex.
Things I liked from DE:

- Sliscus is such a badass space pirate pimp-lord
- Kabalite warriors shooting poisonous stuff and wyches blowing gak up with grenades
- PIRATE SHIPS IN SPACE (Raiders and Ravagers)
- Reavers running people over

I didn't look to much at coven stuff because I don't like it too much. More interested in the space pirate stuff to be honest, and the MC feeling of coven stuff doesn't appeal to me.

So when the codex dropped and I read it... I was kinda disappointed. No new units, the only new thing(voidraven) got its AV nerfed, no skyfire/interceptor or ignore cover, i find the flyers redundant and subpar, and the new -LD gimmick is useless on the most played faction in the setting.
The result was that DE are in the backburner and I'm looking to maybe start a SW Champions of Fenris army. Some of their models are also sweet.

AWWWW MAAAAANN

I guess im gonna have to stick the DE on a back burner also. Its a real shame. I do love the idea of the 'elite' dark eldar. Just feels like they've been gimped.

Well, maybe you don't need to.

They look pretty viable if you start from scratch or ebay them.
On the table they sure seem fun, and most of the kabal/wych stuff are amazing models. Plus you can ally them with eldar which you already have plenty of, right?

As others told you, it's a bummer for someone who already had enough points of DE or a special character based list.
You can still build a viable force.

Personally, I put them in the backburner because the new codex is a sidegrade that IMO tries to push for coven stuff.
I don't like the haemunculi, and I find most of the new codex going in a direction that does not favor my idea of a fun list, so I'll use my money on something else.

Yeah they might be fun, but as you just stated. Seems like they've pushed a certain play style on the codex. I don't want to feel forced to play certain units to make my army work. And it seems they did it in the past. Like the tyranids now need to use flyrants. It's made my friend hate his army. I like you can use whatever you want in Orks so I'm gonna stick to them me thinks

As someone who has played the new codex extensively, i can say without doubt we are not a bottom tier army. If you haven't noticed, all the new releases have been balanced. We are not trying to bring all the codexes up to Tau/Eldar standard, we are trying to bring them all down to Tyranid standard. Taudar will get their re-release soon and we will hear complaints galor as they come crashing down to the same level as everyone else.

And as of this time, Dark Eldar *can* compete with all the best lists around. Old Codex games against Serpent Spam were, to put it bluntly, pointless. Now Reavers and Scourges give us legitimate answers to that which we had never had before. Invisible Centurionstar? Reavers can charge in and do a load of HOW damage which isn't even effected by Invisibility, and the Reavers only have to survive Grav Cannons (5+ armour save, 3+ Jink) and some Bolter shots. Tau fire base? Drop a Grot bomb or two into their deployment zone along with other turn 2 threats and see that Tau sweat.

If you see a Dark Eldar army that has been tailored to the new codex at work, there isn't a second you'd think they were bottom tier. The fact that certain units that used to be used are worse now shouldn't have much leverage on what is good now for a starting player, because he can make a fun, viable TAC list without much difficulty and with some level of variation. So, the question i ask you is, if the last codex was so fun and balanced and flavorful, why were the only builds i saw used competitively Spammed Venoms and Ravagers and a Baron lead Beastpack? Why did no one use Reavers or Scourges or Electrocorrosive whips? Where were the Mandrakes and Chronus engines and Lady Malys's?

They weren't there because they, like around 60% of the last codex, were either over-shadowed by the 40% or completely useless. At least now that 40% has sky rocketed to 80%, not great i grant you, but it's an improvement. So instead of seeing ''No new units, no love'' think for every unit you lost (Lady Malys, Baron, Duke) you 'gained' a unit that would of never seen the table in the old codex (Mandrakes, Scourges, Grotesques).

I am sorry that we have lost some of our characters (My lovingly converted Baron has been reduced to a Helliarch), but i can say i am not sorry we have lost Venom Spam. I am not sorry that we now have a choice of our Heavy Slot rather then insta-3-Ravager and i am not sorry Wyches lost Haywire grenades. Call it a sidegrade if you wish, but it feels definitively diagonal to me...

I didn't use Venoms - I used Raiders.
I used Incubi
I used Malys
I used an Archon with a power axe even before the FAQ that made huskblades actually good

As many have already pointed out - its not that some things were changed but that choice was taken away and very little added to replace it and in fact some bad units were made worse.

I didn't give a S%£t about competative play - but I am royally pissed that (as I said before)

They made Wyches even worse and laughed at their own fluff.
They took away interesting characters and gave us nothing.
They took Flickerfields and Nightshields away so that Cheese Serpents are once again given yet another boost (as if 7th was not enough on its own)
They now expect us to pay £60 for the Codex - plus likely some dataslates later, well FT.

Units they have removed: Lady Malys, Baron, Duke, Vect, Harlequins*.

They took away characters, but we have gained entire units worth of options. In the last codex i didn't even know their WAS a court of the Archon for all the use it did, now it's a usable and unique unit! And from past books, we KNOW that Force Org altering characters were getting the axe, just ask Wazdakka or to a lesser extent the Parasite (no force org change, but he made Ripper armies a 'thing'). Characters come and go but rarely do they axe entire units, at least now the following are usable!

Units you have gained by virtue of them previously being unplyable or overshadowed: Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Scourges, Grotesques.

Harlequins are a sore subject, because we have 2 pages of fluff for them but no actual unit. I can only see one logical reason for this and it's one i am excited about. Harlequins will be getting their own book ala Legion of the Damned or Tempetus Scions or Imperial Assassins. A grab for money? Maybe. A way to give Harlequin players a way to use them as an army in their own right is a nicer way to look at it.

Flickerfields are still a thing on Venoms, giving them something unique. And if those Serpents have no better targets then to shoot at your troop carrying Raiders then your list is seriously lacking threats. Wyches are bad, but that is nothing new. They had a brief time in the limelight of being great suicidal AV, but if that isn't laughing at their own fluff then the new stuff is basically following it to the letter. And now they expect you to pay (insert however much ALL the following new codexes will cost) plus give you the option to buy supplements and dataslates later.

With all these new options you should be wondering what to do with them all rather then mourning the loss of Special Characters, most of whom only came into existence in the last codex anyhow!

No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.

Joking aside, I did actually use the above drop in my last game. I felt dirty. I think that may have literally been my last game.

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.

Joking aside, I did actually use the above drop in my last game. I felt dirty. I think that may have literally been my last game.

I lol'd

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
We are not trying to bring all the codexes up to Tau/Eldar standard, we are trying to bring them all down to Tyranid standard.

OK I suggest you have another look at the power level differences between the Orks/Nids dex and the SM/GK/SW/IK dexes. However, this is just me responding to a statement that strikes me as incorrect, not me arguing the power level of DE to be a weak one, because honestly I couldn't care less what power level the dex sits at. In fact, I honestly prefer the underdog army. I just want internal balance.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
If you see a Dark Eldar army that has been tailored to the new codex at work, there isn't a second you'd think they were bottom tier.

Never once did I say it was bottom tier, just that it's another poorly written codex to replace the last one.

The fact that certain units that used to be used are worse now shouldn't have much leverage on what is good now for a starting player, because he can make a fun, viable TAC list without much difficulty and with some level of variation.

This is what I pretty much exactly said, it's not that there is more things wrong with the new dex in comparison, and getting into either dex from the start neither has a real heads up on the other. It's just that transitioning between the two dexes is nothing but a money steal and offering you VERY little reward for your new purchase, or reward for your old purchase. I can see that you are going to argue that there is more viable builds in the new dex, which is very debatable, it might be arguably slightly better, but I still found plenty of variation in the last dex, there was much more than Venom spam, like every other dex there is a "most popular" way of building it, and people eventually forget there are other ways to play, because copying the standard is easier than thinking. I got plenty of mileage out of Raiders, Venoms, Jets, Bombers, Reavers, Wyches, Warriors, Trueborn, Wracks, Haemonculi, Archons, Grotesques, Urien, Duke, Baron, Vect, Beastpacks, Ravagersm and Incubi. People who tell me 5th ed was nothing but Venom spam missed the mark. That was just the most popular build, and it's a matter of time before it happens with the new dex, mark my words. But regardless, assuming you are correct in your assumption that the new one is more versatile, the thing is, it's marginally at best. That's not really debateable, it went from a codex with plenty of unplayable units, to a reflection of the codex where all the playable ones become unplayable. Maybe this mirror image will have units that are playable that open up slightly more different build possibilities than before. For the cost of my entire previous army being now useless, not just the codex, I don't think it's a very good improvement. I literally have to start from scratch, not a useable unit from my last codex in a sensible competitive DE build. If this was done for the sake of good balance, and my army had just consisted of stupid OP models before this would be a change I'd be ok with. However, everything was balanced, and the only reason it was nerfed is so that everyone would buy new units. I don't think the cost of the new dex is worth over $1500 (the price of my Wyches, Khymerae, and 3 Ravagers alone).

So, the question i ask you is, if the last codex was so fun and balanced and flavorful, why were the only builds i saw used competitively Spammed Venoms and Ravagers and a Baron lead Beastpack?

Oh well I already answered this. And can you genuinely tell me that you cannot find a good competitive build inside that dex other than Venomspam? Otherwise, using "internets most popular" to argue your point of view is a really bad argument. A their will always be a champion build, show me 3 dexes released since the start of 5th that don't have one.

Why did no one use Reavers or Scourges or Electrocorrosive whips?

Actually before the beastpack gained its popularity, Reavers were the most common addition to the main Venomspam build that was so popular, you can go back and check that. But that's just a little sidepoint.

Where were the Mandrakes and Chronus engines and Lady Malys's?

Keeping the space on our shelf warm for Wyches, Khymerae, Ravagers, Duke, Baron, and excess Venoms. Well, I think Mandrakes are still sitting on the shelf btw, they didn't really get better enough. In fact, unlikely to see Malys or Chronos played a huge amount in 7th either I think.

They weren't there because they, like around 60% of the last codex, were either over-shadowed by the 40% or completely useless. At least now that 40% has sky rocketed to 80%, not great i grant you, but it's an improvement.

Ah. Just letting you know I'm sort of reading your post as I go here, and I just read this, and I can almost agree with it (I think you might to say that the useable percentage of the dex has climbed to 80% not the un-unusable right?). You are right, it's not great, but it may be a slight improvement. Maybe its 60-->80 in your eyes, for me its less. But regardless, this is an improvement I'd be OK with if there was SOME incentive to upgrade to the new dex. GW has offered me none. I can't even keep my old army and add new units to it. I still don't necessarily see it as an improvement at all. It's rife with just as many balance issues as the last.

So instead of seeing ''No new units, no love'' think for every unit you lost (Lady Malys, Baron, Duke) you 'gained' a unit that would of never seen the table in the old codex (Mandrakes, Scourges, Grotesques).

But this is exactly my issue. For every unit I gained, I either lost a model from the dex, or had a model from my army nerfed into oblivion. I understand that I gained all this stuff, what I don't think you are grasping is that we lost almost just as much, leaving us with a codex still as unbalanced internally as the last. Yes I can now use different units, but I would prefer to use the units I already bought all the models for thx, rather than having all that money just sitting on the shelf and having to start again from scratch. This is not something to be happy about, especially when the final product sits at a very similar level to the previous one.

I am sorry that we have lost some of our characters (My lovingly converted Baron has been reduced to a Helliarch), but i can say i am not sorry we have lost Venom Spam. I am not sorry that we now have a choice of our Heavy Slot rather then insta-3-Ravager and i am not sorry Wyches lost Haywire grenades. Call it a sidegrade if you wish, but it feels definitively diagonal to me...

And it definitely feels like a sidegrade, if it is diagonal its definitely diagonally downwards for me.

As someone from 3rd ed, I can understand the disappointment. I was hoping that for a few changes:

Archons used to be the bee‘s knees: A great glass hammer. While you it was never best to charge them at the super hq, they could hold their own and were great fighters. The loss of AP2 defies fluff, but what really gets my goat is that they did not regain being able to buy a bike or skyboard. Marines, Orks, and even CraftWorld eldar can have a bike hq but the faction known for lightning attacks doesn't. Come on.

Wyches I was really hoping for something better to help them get in CC. While PtP did get better, that helped everyone. The dodge save should have been usable in overwatch. Or give them "dance" options that mimicked the imperial priest (except no smash). That would have given them a unique role in the game.

While the new codex is good, I was hoping for a return to when Archons and Wyches would be scary awesome (like in third.)

Yeah, I played against some proxied Dark Eldar with my Chaos Daemons, two words no three TORMENT GRENADE LAUNCHER, YES I ENJOY THAT.

I normally hate Eldar , but the smooth PFP game mechanic, the tactical thought the army requires, etc.. really have me looking to pick this army up. I also played D Eldar initially in third as of the box set.

People complaining about Incubi.. uh.. they get Furious charge. If you come in on turn two and you have them near Urien, or you got the Animus off or they have Haemonoculus with them they have Feel No Pain 3+ armor and AP2 ST5 on the charge.

That's insane.

I think people aren't used to Codexes yet, but Formations, Dataslates etc.. are the way GW is now geared toward. Sorry if your meta doesn't like it and the Tournaments are not embracing it, but seriously that's the direction the game is going towards and it shows with Dark Eldar.

It's an army fundamentally designed to Beta Strike and to purposefully go 2nd. That's really damn interesting from a game play perspective. It never wants to go 1st.

People complaining about Incubi.. uh.. they get Furious charge. If you come in on turn two and you have them near Urien, or you got the Animus off or they have Haemonoculus with them they have Feel No Pain 3+ armor and AP2 ST5 on the charge.

That's insane.

And if they touch any hint of cover they are charging in at I1.

 Andy140491 wrote:
AWWWW MAAAAANN

I guess im gonna have to stick the DE on a back burner also. Its a real shame. I do love the idea of the 'elite' dark eldar. Just feels like they've been gimped.

I'm just going to clarify, that this isn't what I'm saying at all. DE is probably more an elite army than it used to be, with wych and venom spam getting the shoulder for stuff like 12 man courts and beastpacks, Grotesques, Bikes, etc. If you ever wanted to play DE, now is just as good a time as any, the new codex is only marginally better or worse than the old one depending on your stand point. The only real reason NOT to get into DE now if you were planning on ever doing it isn't because the gameplay, it's to deliberately not support GW's decision to completely scam its prior customers. The transition between the two dexes is horrible, and no balancing attempt has been made just an attempt to sell different models. I don't get the people who say "oh its good thing they got rid of Venomspam". No, because they just nerfed last codexes most popular build and replaced it with a new codex that will soon have something similar. They didn't FIX Wyches, they didnt fix beastpacks, they didnt fix Ravagers, they are all just super unbalanced now and absolutely unplayable. Rather than giving you new options on an equivalent level of the units in the popular build, they nerfed the worthwhile units forcing you into other choices that they improved. It would be OK if i had a choice between my Venomspam, Beastpack, Ravager build, and the new cool additions to the dex, but instead they went all out money grab tactica on the customers forcing them into the other half of the dex, providing not significantly improved from the last at all, still completely unbalanced internally and ask $70 for it so that we can all go out and rebuy a new army, and this is pretty unacceptable, and I won't be supporting this decision by spending a single dollar GW's way on this new DE release.

You see I'm fine with all the changes... I wasn't very keen on venom spam, and I love the scourge models so I'm personally enjoying the changes. Especially as I'm yet to buy and army. Eventually I'd like to have the majority of the models anyway. I want to put them in a glass cabinet and have them painted up. Even Wyches and I hate them

The one thing I am upset about is how you say they've nerfed Ravagers. Is it something that's really penalised them? Or something that's just made them slightly less usable then before?

They were a hard unit to justify before, that are so flimsy they need to be taken in multiples of 3 to secure even 1 or 2 getting a shot off. They went up 25 points and had their move before shoot range halved. They are big on unplayable. On the other hand, deepstriking with Disintegrators remains the same cost and the mobility nerf is far less relevant, this option is still playable but it was the less popular and necessary option of the two, however I think an underrated one. I guess it's not fair to describe them as UNPLAYABLE, just not a hugely useful unit at all.

So as a previous Dark eldar player, what heavy support slot would you now use? I hear the Void raven bomber is fairly expensive for armour 101010?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Units they have removed: Lady Malys, Baron, Duke, Vect, Harlequins*.

They took away characters, but we have gained entire units worth of options. In the last codex i didn't even know their WAS a court of the Archon for all the use it did, now it's a usable and unique unit! And from past books, we KNOW that Force Org altering characters were getting the axe, just ask Wazdakka or to a lesser extent the Parasite (no force org change, but he made Ripper armies a 'thing'). Characters come and go but rarely do they axe entire units, at least now the following are usable!

Units you have gained by virtue of them previously being unplyable or overshadowed: Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Scourges, Grotesques.

Harlequins are a sore subject, because we have 2 pages of fluff for them but no actual unit. I can only see one logical reason for this and it's one i am excited about. Harlequins will be getting their own book ala Legion of the Damned or Tempetus Scions or Imperial Assassins. A grab for money? Maybe. A way to give Harlequin players a way to use them as an army in their own right is a nicer way to look at it.

Flickerfields are still a thing on Venoms, giving them something unique. And if those Serpents have no better targets then to shoot at your troop carrying Raiders then your list is seriously lacking threats. Wyches are bad, but that is nothing new. They had a brief time in the limelight of being great suicidal AV, but if that isn't laughing at their own fluff then the new stuff is basically following it to the letter. And now they expect you to pay (insert however much ALL the following new codexes will cost) plus give you the option to buy supplements and dataslates later.

With all these new options you should be wondering what to do with them all rather then mourning the loss of Special Characters, most of whom only came into existence in the last codex anyhow!

Right - did you even read my post and things I was saying were a specific problem for me -

Wyches - you really think WS3 S3 is matching their fluff - they are as adept in Close Combat as a Eldar Guardian - seriously - Seriously??? So because its bad in the past - well that's fine lets keep them bad? Awesome attitude -have you any concept of internal balance and how that helps rather than hinders the game?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Units they have removed: Lady Malys, Baron, Duke, Vect, Harlequins*.

They took away characters, but we have gained entire units worth of options. In the last codex i didn't even know their WAS a court of the Archon for all the use it did, now it's a usable and unique unit! And from past books, we KNOW that Force Org altering characters were getting the axe, just ask Wazdakka or to a lesser extent the Parasite (no force org change, but he made Ripper armies a 'thing'). Characters come and go but rarely do they axe entire units, at least now the following are usable!

Units you have gained by virtue of them previously being unplyable or overshadowed: Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Scourges, Grotesques.

Harlequins are a sore subject, because we have 2 pages of fluff for them but no actual unit. I can only see one logical reason for this and it's one i am excited about. Harlequins will be getting their own book ala Legion of the Damned or Tempetus Scions or Imperial Assassins. A grab for money? Maybe. A way to give Harlequin players a way to use them as an army in their own right is a nicer way to look at it.

Flickerfields are still a thing on Venoms, giving them something unique. And if those Serpents have no better targets then to shoot at your troop carrying Raiders then your list is seriously lacking threats. Wyches are bad, but that is nothing new. They had a brief time in the limelight of being great suicidal AV, but if that isn't laughing at their own fluff then the new stuff is basically following it to the letter. And now they expect you to pay (insert however much ALL the following new codexes will cost) plus give you the option to buy supplements and dataslates later.

With all these new options you should be wondering what to do with them all rather then mourning the loss of Special Characters, most of whom only came into existence in the last codex anyhow!

Right - did you even read my post and things I was saying were a specific problem for me -

Wyches - you really think WS3 S3 is matching their fluff - they are as adept in Close Combat as a Eldar Guardian - seriously - Seriously??? So because its bad in the past - well that's fine lets keep them bad? Awesome attitude -have you any concept of internal balance and how that helps rather than hinders the game?

I don't think i got my intention across, i meant to imply what they had done in this codex is just as bad as what they did in the last codex. In neither codex are they a usable CC unit and while they did get some time as anti vehicle stars, do you really believe that should be their role? But that being said, just because they are noncompetitive doesn't mean they are unplayable. In a friendly environment take as many Melee Wych Boats as you like, just remember to take Urien (The new PFP is quite a big buff for them if you think about it) to go with them. The new codex hasn't fixed them, i agree and mourn that. I am afraid they now occupy the empty space on my shelf left by my Court and my Mandrakes. But by all means, apart from being a suicide squad, they were NEVER a competitive choice, So i don't think the design team has any clue how to make a good non-sv CC unit at all really from looking at other codexes

People who live by this myth that Wyches weren't a competitive choice in 6th are kidding themselves or still stuck in 5th.


They were hands down the best thing to put inside a Venom.

I have said several times that taking haywire was fine with me if they had made Wyches actually proper CC units. I do agree GW are getting worse and worse at this and in particular CC units.

I loved them in the first incarnation of the DE Codex - taking slaves etc -- they did this to a Greater Daemon of Khrone once - much fun - now they are just there to hold up units - awesome...........

I am not talking about Competitive play- I am talking about units matching the fluff. Its the same with Howling Banshee.

I don't want to have to take Urien, I don't want to have to take Eldar allies (even though I have a large Eldar army), I don't want to have to but supplements and data slates after a £30 Codex.

I want to be able to field a Wych Cult army on its own - and that's why this edition and this Codex will remain unbought and back to the OP - the reason why I am so angry with the Codex makers and GW.

It looks like I will use my DE army for other games /stuff, Kill team and self made games / system conversions, the 6.5 version of the rules we are now messing with.

I used to buy every Codex for all armies but this way of making Codexes has now finally killed my interest in the current edition and hence lost them my money. I'll still buy the odd model - like the new bomber but that's it.

I play Dark Eldar.


I wrote and built a list that is semi-competitive for fun. There are no OP units in the army, or groups that abuse certain rules - it's a take-all-comers force made for entertainment.


Now the two HQs that the list used (I loved their back-story and their rules allowed me to change tactics on a whim) are gone.

I now find that a number of my units are now far less effective to the point of being useless.

I now find that units I dislike the models of, that I avoided buying are now the effective units. I won't be buying any of them as I think they're ugly and not the heart and soul of the Dark Eldar - Wracks, grotesques and haemunculi are there to support an army of Dark Eldar. The main raiding parties of the Dark Eldar are Kabalites and Wytches. Instead we now find that these units are now babysitters for Haemunculi covens.

Some units I had bought - such as scourges - due to liking the way they looked have become better. But now the wargear has changed (which means remodelling them). On top of this, the plastic kits do not reflect the changes (1 of each weapon per box yet a squad can have 4). Encouraging those with more money than sense to buy multiple kits just to field one unit.



In short, GW has set up the scenario where you need to buy new models (the previously unpopular ones) to be an effective force - I can only assume they had lots of grotesques, mandrakes and wracks that hadn't sold and they are now trying to shift the stock.
You are paying an awful lot of money for what is essentially the old Dark Eldar codex with pages torn out and a few numbers re-jigged.

It's a lot of money for what - to be competitive? Unfortunately for GW I am not a child who feels like they need to be the best. I've relegated my Dark Eldar to the forces box of 'fun but rather unlikely to do anything serious or meaningful - don't expect to win more than 30% of the games'

 Andy140491 wrote:
So as a previous Dark eldar player, what heavy support slot would you now use? I hear the Void raven bomber is fairly expensive for armour 101010?

I like a three strong unit of Taloi if I've got the points, or the old standby of a Ravager otherwise.

It's clear in the last few codices that GW have intentionally set out along a path of toning the power down. What's puzzling is that the armies they've chosen to do that with, with the exception of Grey Knights, were not considered overpowering either on release (dark eldar) or for many years due to the age of the book (orks). Further puzzling to me is that rather than move to bring all options up to the level of the favored choices/builds in the books, they brought everything down to the lowest common denominator, which, in a vacuum, would have been fine, or even in a vacuum of just those books around them, similarly would have been fine, but this completely overlooks and willfully ignores that prior to the tyranid book, they were still on the crazy train of moar power and dishing out serious power to the tau, codex marines and the bloody eldar... So, again, we have a strong change in direction of codex mantra halfway through a release schedule for an edition and instead of what should be happening (a rearranging of what's hot and what's not within a codex), we are again left with a wide gulf between what's strong and what's not in armies. This leaves players penalized for the minis they liked when they chose their army and people like myself, with orks and dark eldar, with the 'exciting prospect' of showing up to games to play the NPC for the good guy players.

I applaud the notion of toning down armies across the board, but doing it in a release schedule like this, for half the armies, with the very real threat that they'll just change direction yet again by the next book or the book after, totally sucks.

Get a plan GW, then bloody well stick to it! This constant need to produce the emperor's newest clothes, this churn and bloat, is killing the game for me and many others.

Don't post things like this on Dakka.

reds8n

I've chosen to go with Dark eldar. Simply because I do like the new viable models. I like the idea of dark eldar and I love the concept of being an elite, fast hitting force. Like you said, it's a good time to start DE now as it ever was. And to be honest I don't play tournaments either. I don't like wyches, so they'll be the only models I leave out. Other then that I'll buy hellions, beast masters, and scourges aplenty. I understand why previous collectors got slapped in the face. But they can't take away anymore then they already have. So with me starting now; they can only add surely?

Perfect logic, and Dark Eldar are such a cool army, I can't blame you for wanting to start them. You'll learn what you need as you play them, and how you need to play. I remember reading something about the difference between playing DE and playing Necrons, playing Crons you learn how to sit there and roll dice, playing DE you learn to play the game at every aspect, you need to know where to hit (positioning and ranges are critical and you have to know not just your own armies but everyone elses), how much to commit to a kill (can't afford to misjudge and vastly overcommit aggressively) and when to do it (target prioritization), they are a hard army to master but a lot of fun when you play to Dark Eldars unique strengths. I just hope 4 years from now when the next codex comes out they don't screw you and the rest of us all over again, then you will truly feel my pain.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Perfect logic, and Dark Eldar are such a cool army, I can't blame you for wanting to start them. You'll learn what you need as you play them, and how you need to play. I remember reading something about the difference between playing DE and playing Necrons, playing Crons you learn how to sit there and roll dice, playing DE you learn to play the game at every aspect, you need to know where to hit (positioning and ranges are critical and you have to know not just your own armies but everyone elses), how much to commit to a kill (can't afford to misjudge and vastly overcommit aggressively) and when to do it (target prioritization), they are a hard army to master but a lot of fun when you play to Dark Eldars unique strengths. I just hope 4 years from now when the next codex comes out they don't screw you and the rest of us all over again, then you will truly feel my pain.

I can see why you're angry, but thank you for support my decision are there any key units you've seen in the new book that are worth looking at? This Is my first army that I'm back into since about 4th editor rules. So ill be new to most of it. I feel at the moment that I lack the tactical knowledge to play such a skilled army. But I want to get better so practice practice practice right?? Do you have any good starting points for me to read or learn? Say focus on one aspect per game? Learn how to move across the board first or tie them in together? I understand the term alpha and beta strike armies, but what advantages does having a beta strike have?

I'd say, Reavers. Seems like an amazingly versatile unit with brilliant speed who will trade cost effectively with just about anything. 1 unit of scourges as coverage to drop in and nuke some REALLY heavy armour, other than that, Venoms are good in the troop slots just pack min sized warrior units inside them. You asked about heavy support earlier, the Bomber is the only one really worth considering and it's pretty outclassed by the jet unless you are taking implosion missiles, luckily, implosion missiles are dope as feth and can compliment splinter weaponry really well, as the two things splinter weaponry isn't good against is armour saves and blobs, which implosions are epic against. I doubt you'd even need more than 1 bomber, and while the jet is a better model at face value, it doesn't give the important coverage that the bomber does making its role very unnecessary, and it also fights for the most important slot in the army (Fast Attack). I hope this helps you with your questions about the Bomber being overpriced. Not sure if it will be necessary for me yet or not due to the amount of Reavers I'm planning to run AP2 blast may not be important, if that's the case a single jet does an excellent job of nuking blobs much more efficiently.


This is how I'm planning to play the dex anyway. There's other options like assaulting with our S5 T5 multi wound Grots and using Oain engines and stuff,but doing that feels like I may as well be playing Orks or something and I prefer Dark Eldar for its unique style of play not the style replicable by other dexes

 Andy140491 wrote:

Do you have any good starting points for me to read or learn? Say focus on one aspect per game? Learn how to move across the board first or tie them in together? I understand the term alpha and beta strike armies, but what advantages does having a beta strike have?

Beta Strike has its advantages in that it nullifies any Alpha Strike your opponent may have had, reduces the turns you'll be getting shot at, and bumps up the turn count on the PfP chart. Thats one of the weird things about the new Power from Pain, we get bonuses whether we are causing pain or not, so its actually better for us to try be more active in the last turns of the game rather than the first turns. Its completely backwards from the last codex.

Real Space Raiders is the Detachment to use, unless you're going heavy into Coven units. Expands your Fast Attacks to 6 slots, and some other stuff.

Another key point is to try to find lynchpin units in your opponents army and take them out quick. Things like taking out transports quick to force his ground troops to chase around your Reavers and Scourges on foot, etc.

Also using your movement to reduce the number of turns enemy fliers can shoot at you, because realistically you're not going to be shooting them down, especially tough fliers like Helldrakes and Stormraven. Fliers are just something you have to survive.

As far as kits to load up on, Reavers, Scourges and some warriors in Venoms is a good start. Don't spend too many points on HQs. I like Grotesques, especially because you can use alternate models and still fit in the fluff (I think of my Haemonculi as genetic tinkerers rather than Dr. Frankenstein, so my Grotesques are Werewolves and Minotaurs, etc).
Hope that helps.

I know the dark eldar are fast as hell and hit like a cannon. But I think the pain engines and the coven supplement actually add some diversity to our army. I think it's nice that we can play a stand alone dex, and with the new supplement, not have to ally with anyone. The Void raven does sound quite interesting though, and the new kit looks killer. I might have to consider it as my first game will be against space marines with imperial knights and guard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 Andy140491 wrote:

Do you have any good starting points for me to read or learn? Say focus on one aspect per game? Learn how to move across the board first or tie them in together? I understand the term alpha and beta strike armies, but what advantages does having a beta strike have?

Beta Strike has its advantages in that it nullifies any Alpha Strike your opponent may have had, reduces the turns you'll be getting shot at, and bumps up the turn count on the PfP chart. Thats one of the weird things about the new Power from Pain, we get bonuses whether we are causing pain or not, so its actually better for us to try be more active in the last turns of the game rather than the first turns. Its completely backwards from the last codex.

Real Space Raiders is the Detachment to use, unless you're going heavy into Coven units. Expands your Fast Attacks to 6 slots, and some other stuff.

Another key point is to try to find lynchpin units in your opponents army and take them out quick. Things like taking out transports quick to force his ground troops to chase around your Reavers and Scourges on foot, etc.

Also using your movement to reduce the number of turns enemy fliers can shoot at you, because realistically you're not going to be shooting them down, especially tough fliers like Helldrakes and Stormraven. Fliers are just something you have to survive.

As far as kits to load up on, Reavers, Scourges and some warriors in Venoms is a good start. Don't spend too many points on HQs. I like Grotesques, especially because you can use alternate models and still fit in the fluff (I think of my Haemonculi as genetic tinkerers rather than Dr. Frankenstein, so my Grotesques are Werewolves and Minotaurs, etc).
Hope that helps.

To be honest, even though my first game is against marines, my main enemy will be tau. And he plays like a castle with bucket loads of marker lights, missilesides and riptides. So there won't be many transports to go for. Problem is I don't know what units he has that are able to take marker lights. My plan would be to deploy in one corner. Preferably up the side of his flanks that has some juicy targets and take out his marker lights, maybe grot bomb behind his units so he has to focus on those while my army dismantles his most potent units (fire warriors) in my opinion haha

How do you go about setting up for beta strike? As little on the table as possible? Hide as much stuff and let him go first?

Beta Strike is pretty easy, take 2 or 3 squads of Mandrakes, get a ADL put it out of LOS.

Or just take the Wrack Formation and do the same thing, since it deep strikes turn one plus you get the extra victory points.

You can also use a Autarch for the 2+ but if you don't want to ally in Eldar the ADL w/ Comms seems the way to go.

What does it gain you though :/ just have the mandrake behind the defence or in cover and wait two turns? Why not go with an alpha strike? Why do people say that dark eldar are the best beta strikers??

Castled Tau are going to be tough. You're right on the money about taking out the Markerlights quick, as well as taking out things that ignore cover. Splinter Cannons are going to be good here, just pile on long range wounds and start dropping the Markerlights. Venoms, Trueborn, and Scourges are good for splinter cannons.

Otherwise, I think a big unit of Grotesques with 3 liquifiers portaling in with a Haemonculus right into the Tau lines would be good. You'll lose the unit, but it will likely take a large amount of the Tau shooting and give time for Reavers to get into position. In the rare event he ignores the Grotesques, well 7-8 of them charging Tau lines will be hilarious.
I think Reavers will be key for taking out the Riptides and Broadsides with Blasters and Caltrops.

For setting up the beta strike it might be best to go second, hide a few units out of LOS with a comms relay. Then drop the Grots on your turn 2, deep strike in a couple units of Scourges, crank those Reavers on from your edge into ideal position for cover and a turn 3 assault. A Flier to dump big blasts on Tau infantry might not be a bad idea for that turn too.

Might work. That way Tau are basically losing their shooting for turns 1 and 2, then at the bottom of 2 your flier drops pile plates, Scourges and Venoms splinter up the Markerlights and a fat blob of Grots liquify some guys and threaten the rest of the Tau army. Turn 3 Tau shoot the hell out of the Grotesques. Bottom of 3 your Reavers move in and the slaughter ensues.
Might work...

 Andy140491 wrote:
What does it gain you though :/ just have the mandrake behind the defence or in cover and wait two turns? Why not go with an alpha strike? Why do people say that dark eldar are the best beta strikers??

Because the Power from Pain chart gets better when we waste more time, and it allows us to show up suddenly to take out units that ignore cover. Its more reliable than hoping we get first turn, especially after losing the Baron.

I can't take credit for that. ALEXisAWESOME has been helping me write a list explaining to me the basic principles of fighting with Dark eldar especially against tau!

I have to admit I love the idea of the new dex. I'm quite looking forward to gaming with them. I think I'll pick up the coven supplement too. Go for that kinda theme too

Why would reavers be best for taking on his riptides and suits? Just out of curiosity??

Alex advised me to take a few grots with a suc, for my spearhead, so I think that's still going ahead. Stick em in raider, stick em out of LOS and get ready for a second turn assault.

I really want to use the flyers. They look so slick I'm just worrier about the armour as his fire warriors can actually pen them haha

I've just noticed that unbeknownst to me I've had a post of mine red texted by a certain mod who really does seem to enjoy doing that to my posts without any alert or explanation. I speculate that it was due to my choice of words encouraging piracy, so I'm just going to reword the sentiment



If you do think that this release is crappy, I urge you not to support GW in its subpar releases with phoned in rule sets, pushes to make you rebuy your entire army, ands day 1 DLC by doing exactly what they are hoping it will achieve... Which is, you buying any of this crap. Instead, vote with your wallet, if you don't like this release find an unwanted VoidRaven on the Swap Shop, any purchases you make supporting this release just justifies their decision to them of slashing production costs in army balancing.



To make it clear, I am no longer advocating piracy in any manner, although I have seen threads literally dedicated to discussing the merits and negatives to piracy on these forums I guess some rules don't appear in the forum rules section, and only apply to me, and are only enforced on me by one certain moderator. Doesn't seem to be in Dakkas policy anywhere, but I guess I must have just missed it.


Regardless, let's not donate fund and encourage GW to cut production costs all around the board, least of which lazy attempts at balancing that the game we all want to enjoy is built on. I seriously doubt there was more than 1 person working on this dex for more than a grand total of 6 hours including some indulgent coffee breaks.

I'm starting a fresh shuppet so it's not a problem for me I do feel your pain though :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a little issue. I know it's nothing serious but I've just gone through the online store and tried to write down everything I want. After everything that I wanted I'd pretty much made an army. 2 raiders with 10 warriors to begin with. I couldn't buy reavers. 2 crimson hunters and void raven. Succubus, archon, grotesques, a Ravager. Some incubi.. I don't know if Wracks are any good?

 Andy140491 wrote:

Why would reavers be best for taking on his riptides and suits? Just out of curiosity??

Alex advised me to take a few grots with a suc, for my spearhead, so I think that's still going ahead. Stick em in raider, stick em out of LOS and get ready for a second turn assault.

For the reavers, mainly because they are fast enough to get there, and will beat them in assault. Usually can hurt them a bit with shooting. HoW hits rend and Caltrops add D6 S6 rending hits, on top of regular assaulting.

I'd be careful with Raiders, they can be hard to hide due to their weird shape. If you are attaching a character I would portal them into terrain on turn 2, a bit more reliable placement and not screwed if there isn't good enough LOS blocking terrain. Cheaper too. Both delivery methods work, just a personal preference. You're concerned that Firewarriors can bring down our fliers, they can bring down our transports just as easily.

 Andy140491 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a little issue. I know it's nothing serious but I've just gone through the online store and tried to write down everything I want. After everything that I wanted I'd pretty much made an army. 2 raiders with 10 warriors to begin with. I couldn't buy reavers. 2 crimson hunters and void raven. Succubus, archon, grotesques, a Ravager. Some incubi.. I don't know if Wracks are any good?

Wracks I wouldn't buy, they don't really serve a purpose as they aren't troops anymore. Unless you really really like those models, then they can just be a reason to bring more Venoms. And don't forget the Venoms.

So thats one less unit i can buy :/

I made an online list with Orks and i was still finding stuff to cram in my list. I still felt like i had so much to buy. I made a list with Dark eldar and felt like i'd finished already?

You are deluding yourself if you can't recognise that the only factor that GW care about when making a new codex is sales. New kit? Make it OP/auto-include. Kit not selling? Make it OP/auto-include. Kit has sold really well but is slowing down due to market saturation? Nerf.

GW hates a finished army, as a finished army = no profit. So, each codex, make half of it worthless.

 Andy140491 wrote:
So thats one less unit i can buy :/

I made an online list with Orks and i was still finding stuff to cram in my list. I still felt like i had so much to buy. I made a list with Dark eldar and felt like i'd finished already?

Wracks aren't that bad. They absolutely got less great, but they work well in coven lists, eecially with the supplement.

 Andy140491 wrote:
I've chosen to go with Dark eldar. Simply because I do like the new viable models. I like the idea of dark eldar and I love the concept of being an elite, fast hitting force. Like you said, it's a good time to start DE now as it ever was. And to be honest I don't play tournaments either. I don't like wyches, so they'll be the only models I leave out. Other then that I'll buy hellions, beast masters, and scourges aplenty. I understand why previous collectors got slapped in the face. But they can't take away anymore then they already have. So with me starting now; they can only add surely?

Good call.

Dark Eldar are a very rewarding army. The models are simply beautiful. They are a tactically rewarding army, and they now have multiple build varieties that all have a distinct flavour.
Hopefully they get a Wych cult supplement that boosts Wyches and Hellions, this would be all that is needed to complete the army in my view.

I have been playing Dark Eldar for a couple of years, but never competitively, so the new Codex does not frustrate me. Instead I applaud the internal balance of the new codex, along with the Ork codex, they have made the previously terrible units playable, and given the auto includes a bit of a nerf. The supplements have also added options as they provide solid boost, if you are prepared to shoehorn the set formation into your list. It certainly keeps you thinking when writing your lists, as so much of the flavour is now actually playable.

If you are concerned that they may be hard to win with (I don't think you will) you can always just ally in some Eldar and give them a big boost. They sync really well. (too well really).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andy140491 wrote:
I'm starting a fresh shuppet so it's not a problem for me I do feel your pain though :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a little issue. I know it's nothing serious but I've just gone through the online store and tried to write down everything I want. After everything that I wanted I'd pretty much made an army. 2 raiders with 10 warriors to begin with. I couldn't buy reavers. 2 crimson hunters and void raven. Succubus, archon, grotesques, a Ravager. Some incubi.. I don't know if Wracks are any good?

I'd consider the wracks in the scalpel squadron formation from the Coven Supplement. It is two lots of 5 wracks in venoms. It is a handy tool to allow your whole army to safely beta strike without fear of losing the game, as these guys can deep strike in turn 1. Also, if the get first blood you get a bonus D3 victory points.

Aside from that though, I am not that keen on Wracks this addition. Although I would like to write a coven army and see how they would go in that.

Also don't forget the scourges.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
You are deluding yourself if you can't recognise that the only factor that GW care about when making a new codex is sales. New kit? Make it OP/auto-include. Kit not selling? Make it OP/auto-include. Kit has sold really well but is slowing down due to market saturation? Nerf.

GW hates a finished army, as a finished army = no profit. So, each codex, make half of it worthless.

Except this isn't true, at least, not often enough to prove yourself undeniably right. I can name several new kits that are less then OP, the Haruspex, the Mutilith Beast, the Tau Fliers, the DA Fliers, Slaaneshi Chariots, Scions, Taurox's. You have examples of your idea as well, but not enough to prove yourself right over my examples. I personally think GW has no idea of balance what-so-ever, and they buff and nerf on a whim, but that's just me. Maybe there is an overarching plan to squeeze money from me in some new inventive way, and i am still here, so i guess it's working.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
You are deluding yourself if you can't recognise that the only factor that GW care about when making a new codex is sales. New kit? Make it OP/auto-include. Kit not selling? Make it OP/auto-include. Kit has sold really well but is slowing down due to market saturation? Nerf.

GW hates a finished army, as a finished army = no profit. So, each codex, make half of it worthless.

Except this isn't true, at least, not often enough to prove yourself undeniably right. I can name several new kits that are less then OP, the Haruspex, the Mutilith Beast, the Tau Fliers, the DA Fliers, Slaaneshi Chariots, Scions, Taurox's. You have examples of your idea as well, but not enough to prove yourself right over my examples. I personally think GW has no idea of balance what-so-ever, and they buff and nerf on a whim, but that's just me. Maybe there is an overarching plan to squeeze money from me in some new inventive way, and i am still here, so i guess it's working.

He never said they were competent at it.

Can i just ask one question that may seem a little out of context? and dont hate me for asking such a Juvenile question but...

Im really... REALLY stuck on choosing my army to the point that im getting a headache as im picking up said army on Wednesday. Im stuck between Orks and Dark eldar.

Can someone here tell me in their own opinions why i should play Dark eldar (in technical game terms) over orks?

(yes i know its a really daft question, but im getting to the point where im tearing my hair out because i cant decide for myself. i like both armies equally. but i only want to collect one. Given that more the like 99.9999999% of you guys have played more games with and against both armies more then i, i suspect you'll have more knowledge on both)

If anyone can give me a clear answer... i'd really. really appreciate it

I've not played the army except against it but I am considering it after I finish a few more squads for a previious army.The main reason, it's a deceptive army. At first it looks like "Oh these aren't to much"Then you actually get into playing a game against them. Let me tell you army wide Feel No Pain , Fearless, Furious Charge, etc.. is no joke.It seems like a glass cannon army but it's really not.Try and dig out a 20 man unit of just Kabalite warriors in cover with Feel No Pain is a chore. Everything get's better, and as the game goes on in the last turns of the game is when the troops get things like Rage, and Fearless. This means they're going to stick around on that objective. You'll have to get rido f every single one.Oh and then you throw in the fact that the Kabalite Warriors can charge you with Rage , Fearless ad Feel no pain.Even their basic 8 point model is dangerous at that point.Remember Orks? Remember when they had furious charge and crap armour.oward the end of the game the basic Warriors are super powered.This is not even counting the multiple ways you can manipulate the PFP chart.It's not a Alpha Strike army but if you get into long game with them it get's worse.That's why I think their the most interesting codex.

They get abilities they need in the late game. That's fascinating and a great mechanic.

 Andy140491 wrote:
Can i just ask one question that may seem a little out of context? and dont hate me for asking such a Juvenile question but...

Im really... REALLY stuck on choosing my army to the point that im getting a headache as im picking up said army on Wednesday. Im stuck between Orks and Dark eldar.

Can someone here tell me in their own opinions why i should play Dark eldar (in technical game terms) over orks?

(yes i know its a really daft question, but im getting to the point where im tearing my hair out because i cant decide for myself. i like both armies equally. but i only want to collect one. Given that more the like 99.9999999% of you guys have played more games with and against both armies more then i, i suspect you'll have more knowledge on both)

If anyone can give me a clear answer... i'd really. really appreciate it

Alright, answer these two questions and it should be easy to figure out.
1: Which models do you like best?
2: Which fluff/background do you like best?

When it comes down to it you are going to spend way more time building, painting, and thinking about your army than you ever will playing it. So you have to be sure you enjoy painting the models, and you can't secretly despise your army's background. Unless you are playing tournaments a lot the army rules are less important.

I would personally go with Dark Eldar, I revived my DE in 5th because they recieved the best models GW has ever made and I wanted a painting project that also got some tabletop time.

As far as why to pick DE in technical game terms. Would you rather have a scary horde army or a fast lethal fragile army? It's just two very different ways to play the game

Yeah I mean really it's a issue ultimately of aesthetics as well as play style. Personally I think the Dark Eldar have some fantastic models so that would be something I'd go for.

I can only echo what the others have said. Look at looks, lore and playstyle!

Dark eldar are the true evil faction with the looks to match. The longer the game goes on, the better they get which is a unique mechanic in 40K. Because of the WWP they can make almost any unit viable!

Orks are the comic relief of 40K. They a hodgepodge look to them, they have zany rules and their lore is pure bonkers. Orks are great because you can make almost any list work with them. Plus, if you like the look of the vehicles other races use, you can loot 'em!

I'd personally pick orks all the time, but then I am an ork player... I will say though, DE are a very unique faction and they have been tempting me very, very much since their newest codex has been released.

The models for Dark Eldar are excellent especially when you consider that Dark Elves from fantasy work well as stand ins for beasts etc..

So there is a ton of model variety for example these :

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Elves-Sisters-of-Slaughter

Make Excellent Wyches with ZERO conversion except a base change

These as well

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Elves-Witch-Elves

Again it's just a really cool thing that fits together well

And pretty much most of these make cool beasts

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer?Nao=48&Nu=product.repositoryId&N=102351+4294966842+4294966818+4294966644&qty=12&sorting=phl&view=table

DE models look better than Orks, but are more fragile and harder to paint.

Thanks for all your replies sorry I haven't replied till this morning I pretty much flaked out.

Well looks wise is a complete draw. Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate the fact that Dark eldar.. to ssome degree have better models but then I'm a huge fan of the rag tag orks. But on a serious scale it probably would be dark eldar if I wanted a darker evil looking army.

Background... Well. I love the concept of orks. But I'm not so keen on their stupidity as much. I find it much more enthralling reading how a weapon from the dark eldar can liquefy an enemy and make his bones explode. The detail it goes in to..

Gaming terms for me is the loggerhead. Due to me purging my games workshop before I stopped playing 40k, some 3 years ago. I think it's when fliers just starting coming out. I have no idea how 40k works anymore in terms over jinking ect. But that's where I suppose dark eldar factor into it more. People say they're more tactically rewarding. And to me.. when I've been told you can table people in two turns or be tabled is a huge attraction. He who dares wins and that. I like the concept that with Dark eldar comes a risk. They're fast. Hit hard. And can melt your skin off your body.

The power creep of later editions has slowly seen Dark Eldars firepower diminish, to the point where they would have extreme trouble tabling most 7th armies in 2 or even 3 turns, assuming a good game.

From the reports I've watched and read, from talking to a few people, the firepower for dark eldar (Again from what I've been told) is still more then potent?? Maybe only tabling on a good day as you say. But I didn't think it had diminished as much as you say it has?

The firepower is certainly potent, as poison on everything and lances for th rest means you rarely struggle to wound anything. A wriathknight is just a 6 wound marine to you, when it comes to firing poison.

Both play extremely well on the table

WRacks - given you dont need troops, especially when you take the non-OS formations that give you horrible numbers of elite choices anyway, are definitely not a bad choice.

 Jimsolo wrote:
In an edition where psykers are extremely powerful

Here's your official zero credibility card. Have a nice day.

On topic: the new DE book is I think better balanced and slightly stronger.

We'll see in the next months how it plays out.

Nice thanks for the insightful contribution Morgoth.

Its about par for the course with that poster. Always a unique viewpoint, especially when it comes to the location of car companies....

To Andy - the main thing is to try the play style out for yourself. proxy it up, build something you think would be fun, and give it a try. There is only so much people on here can say - a lot of people like to play armies that struggle, because they like to play those armies. It just fits with them.

Well I have enough cash to get me started on an army I have a friend on here who is helping me out

Do you guys have any suggestions for an all round ish starting force?

I'm gonna be spending about £500, $800

For DE? Raiders, wracks, venoms and the fighter are all fairly solid choices. Its worth looking a tthe rules, if you can, to see if any formation particularly grabs you - as pointed out, tehre is a lovely little Haemi coven formation of just 2 wracks, 2 venom, that DS turn 1. THats 24 poison shots going whereever you want....

Yeah I'm gonna pick up the coven supplement I think tomorrow I love the talos and cronos so I'm looking forward to getting them and some grotesques but I'm glad Wracks are useful too!

Theres also the murderpack (5 helbrute / aka chaos dreadnoughts) equivalent, of I think 5 Talos in a single unit. Or the talos plus haemi plus chronos unit....

Really, the whole supplement is full of fun stuff. You still of course need the main book, but there is some pretty interesting items in there.

Is that the one where they have the VP thing called 'let the harvest begin' or something like that??

Yeah I love the coven stuff apart from the hq funnily enough haha. But the idea of 3 T7 monsters drawing the fire power seems like something I'd want

5 T7 monsters. 5.

Something like that - if they score first blood you get D3 VPs, not 1

The Wyche set ($160 USD) is not bad to start. Thankfully, GW has started providing boxes that give you some cost savings.

Yeah the coven formations are all pretty much really solid. The one I think especially is dangerous is the Haemy , Talos, Chronos combo w/ WWP.

That's not pleasant.