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 SHUPPET wrote:
Hmm I read first post, last post, and a couple in between, looks a lot like OP was asking why people dislike he new codex, not how to play Warhammer, but maybe I missed that somewhere in the thread,

Anyway, while the new dex is playable, and Courts are cool as gak and so are the new beastpacks, the main reason to dislike this is, is that it's a pretty terribly written entry into 7th. Almost every single competitive model from 6th ed was nerfed. By that i don't mean rebalanced, and brought in line with the rest of the dex, by that I mean nerfed into unplayability. So while the new dex does have cool new offerings, it's not so much about what we gained, but the cost of transition. It's not about "whining that my army got weaker" as some particularly narrow minded players like to label all negative feedback to poorly implemented changes. We now have a new codex, except the new one has just as many unplayable units as before. So while either book could be argued as inherently better than the other, and you WILL hear good arguments for both side, to me the real issue is the cost of transition ($70 before DLC over here) and the fact that I have to rebuy my entire army if I want it to playable like my last one was, just leads me to one big question - why? The book is no more balanced than the last. There is no new models at all to be excited about. A bunch of my favourite HQs have been nerfed. And my entire army just went from top tier to unplayable.

Exactly why anyone but a Dark Eldar player who owns absolutely every model in existence, and multiple copies (sorry, I don't own that kinda cash, and have to carefully plan every purchase for my army) would be anything but disappointed by what will likely be our only update from anywhere between 2-6 years to come, is hard for me to comprehend, Even if I did own the entire range I'd still be kinda bummed, it's like, meh, ok I can use some of my new models on he tabletop, would have been nice if they had left the excellent balance they had established with our troop choices (3 arguably 4 playable troops, limited to just warriors now), or the well balanced Ravager, and even well balanced Khymerae, who without the Baron are really quite fine and fun. Instead, every single model from our competitive core was nerfed beyond reason, and to anyone who thinks that to be a coincidence I envy your obliviousness to GWs manipulation of your wallet here. I now have 75 Khymerea, 9 Venoms, 18 Wracks, 3 Ravagers, a Duke Sliscus conversion, a Baron conversion, and a handful of gak like Trueborn & Reavers sitting on my shelf, so I guess for anytime in e foreseeable future, I am no longer a Dark Eldar player because my collection is now composed largely of the worst units in the dex.

Well, that's an exaggeration as I'm obviously just going to continue to use my 5E DE book. Which kinda supports my point. This release was useless. Happy for all the people who owned a bunched of clawed fiends and court of the archons however. Glad you are now forced to use some different models in competitive / sensible builds. Too bad for the rest of us whiners too stuck in our ways unable to make our own decisions and just listening to people blindly spouting off our grapes, aye. Because there's nothing worse than people who don't formulate opinions properly and just lump everything said from a certain perpestive into one category, am I right!

So basically you're saying that whilst the new book is still playable, you're more then likely going to have to run certain lists so that you can actually have fun and do well? Due to so many of the units being nerfed too much?

Well yes. While that applies to the new book, it also applies to the old book, neither was perfect. I don't imagine the cost of entry into the new book would be any worse than the cost of entry into the last (assuming current day prices for both), but I've already paid that cost, not interested in doing it again, with almost nothing to show from my past purchases, and a couple of Venoms at best to transition into the new list, and only because 2 crappy mandatory Warrior squads that I dont even want to run, but now have to because the ONE other troop option left in the dex is now unplayable bad. I don't mind getting a few new models here, but GW should encourage me to do with tempting new units or balances fixes on new stuff to add to my army, but this greedy push by GW to force me to buy an entire new army worth of models and putting everything I already bought from them back on the shelf, all the while the cost of their entire range has been slowly climbing, is too much for me. Day 1 DLC should not exist, forcing every single DE army into 1 troop choice when we used to have 4 viable ones should not have happened. The nerf of Ravagers (who were very balanced) just to narrow us into buying new AT models, necessary to compete with adding the the 40k universe like Knights and LoW, should not have happened. They haven't fixed the balance at all in this new dex, they've kept it just as bad and are offering no real improvement at all, more of the same unplayable units plagued through the dex, while asking more than ever for your participation fee.

I'm a Nid player too, and we all know how bad that release was and how badly recieved it was almost globally by the community. So take heed to what I'm about to say, as a Nid player, I genuinely think this release is worse. Nids at least got 2 new models, and were allowed to keep at least 500 points in playable models for the Flyrant HQs, and were allowed to keep some units without a specific model that are easily converted from regular units (Swarmlord and Old One Eye). So even though we still had the core of our previous army nerfed to oblivion and lost a bunch of units won't out models, it was on smaller scale, and we at least had some cool new stuff, and replacing the holes in our build was easier because we didn't have as much nerfed. It might only be marginally better, but these are small blessings DE weren't lucky enough to receive.



The development team isn't even trying anymore, basically just saying, "Hey, here's nothing new, we just want your money!". I didn't think things would go downhill from the Nid release, but meh people keep supporting GW in purchases so I guess it's enough to keep people interested, and that's all a company looking to slash every expense cares about right now. I'd be shocked if more than a days work went into this new dex, but if I was given a million dollars to guess the correct amount of time spent rebalancing the units, I'd guess about 3 hours, including the time it took to work out which units don't have and pressing delete, for no other reason to spite the other modelling companies out there at the cost of the 40k players money and gaming experience. I guess sometimes, less is more. At least for GW it is.

I can see where you're coming from shuppet. Us that are now interested will have this as our intial purchases while you feel cheated by your past ones.. I feel that's a big reason the haemonculus supplement was what it was. It Was like.. we are sorry for taking away one of the more popular last troop choices but look! You can play them in this book for an extra $60! But with our new restrictions. I personally love and am going to build the new carnival of pain.. however I can see why to a vet it's a slap in the face

Yeah. All in all, there's nothing WRONG with the new dex in comparison to the old one, except maybe eh fact that it has less units. But for $70 and the price of rebuking a brand new army, is it really "whiny" of me to expect some improvement? Even one new unit? Improved balance? More options?

Instead all I have is objectively similar or worse, very hard to see an improvement here.


This is why it's so hard for players of other armies to see the gripes DE players may have with what they've received. Other armies see Haywire Scourges, 6 FA slots and army wide FnP, have to play against it and are like "wow new DE codex, anyone complaining about this is a whiner, I know everything best firsthand because I've now played against once" /neckbeardvoice. But really, as a DE player it's hard to view it as anything but a sidegrade, at best. It would be quite easy to call someone a power gamer for the attitude shown that all internal balance issues make you a whiner, and because your codex got overall stronger (debatably) you should be nothing but happy With the changes.

I have to admit shuppet..When i read your first thread i did just think you were hurting because the new book wasnt to your taste. BUT; when you put it like you have done... i couldnt agree more. You know if everyone read thatb im surprised they'd WANT to start a new DE army.

i suppose its like teaching a dog to sit. then punishing it. Here buy these Wyches! and stick them all in these venoms and spend hella dolla! NO!!! NO! DONT BUY THEM THEY SUCK! BUY THESE REALLY BAD SCOURGES NOW! you'd eventually be pissed.

Shuppet echos my feelings on this dex as well. If your new to DE then the codex is actually very good. It does have some very good point effective units However, existing DE players will see more like a slap in the face as many of their current units have been down graded or even flat out removed in the case of many special characters.

I also agree about it not feeling like a true 7th edition dex. 7th edition has a huge list of special traits however, not many of them actually show up in the DE codex. No skyfire/interceptor. No LOW except for what you can get on allies. It really is just a sideways shift from the old 5th edition codex and doesn't feel at all like something new.

Yeaaaaahhhhh I'll make orks my current project i think.... Dark eldar dont seem that fun anymore haha

Overall the book is very well done IMO. I think the flyers should have Vector Dancer, because why would they not, but that's beside the point. The Coven units are now obnoxious, which my DE friend played frequently before the new book anyway. I think anything that Ignores Cover (Eldar, Tau), have a much easier time killing Raiders, since the Flickerfield is gone on them. But, meh. I still think it's pretty deadly of a book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
No skyfire/interceptor. No LOW except for what you can get on allies. It really is just a sideways shift from the old 5th edition codex and doesn't feel at all like something new.

I like the book, but I do have to agree. No LoW was weird, and straight up removing Vect was a slap in the face. No Ignores Cover, Skyfire, Interceptor, all of that kinda sucks to not have.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Overall the book is very well done IMO. I think the flyers should have Vector Dancer, because why would they not, but that's beside the point. The Coven units are now obnoxious, which my DE friend played frequently before the new book anyway. I think anything that Ignores Cover (Eldar, Tau), have a much easier time killing Raiders, since the Flickerfield is gone on them. But, meh. I still think it's pretty deadly of a book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
No skyfire/interceptor. No LOW except for what you can get on allies. It really is just a sideways shift from the old 5th edition codex and doesn't feel at all like something new.

I like the book, but I do have to agree. No LoW was weird, and straight up removing Vect was a slap in the face. No Ignores Cover, Skyfire, Interceptor, all of that kinda sucks to not have.

Which is kind of odd, you'd think being raiders who invade settlements and often enjoy their 'hunts' through all sorts of hazardous terrain you'd think they'd know how to catch prey in cover.

I was in the same place as you, OP.

I really liked DE from across the table, and I was looking to start a new army. Then rumors of 7th ed came out and I froze my purchase waiting for the new codex.
Things I liked from DE:

- Sliscus is such a badass space pirate pimp-lord
- Kabalite warriors shooting poisonous stuff and wyches blowing gak up with grenades
- PIRATE SHIPS IN SPACE (Raiders and Ravagers)
- Reavers running people over

I didn't look to much at coven stuff because I don't like it too much. More interested in the space pirate stuff to be honest, and the MC feeling of coven stuff doesn't appeal to me.

So when the codex dropped and I read it... I was kinda disappointed. No new units, the only new thing(voidraven) got its AV nerfed, no skyfire/interceptor or ignore cover, i find the flyers redundant and subpar, and the new -LD gimmick is useless on the most played faction in the setting.
The result was that DE are in the backburner and I'm looking to maybe start a SW Champions of Fenris army. Some of their models are also sweet.

AWWWW MAAAAANN

I guess im gonna have to stick the DE on a back burner also. Its a real shame. I do love the idea of the 'elite' dark eldar. Just feels like they've been gimped.

Well, maybe you don't need to.

They look pretty viable if you start from scratch or ebay them.
On the table they sure seem fun, and most of the kabal/wych stuff are amazing models. Plus you can ally them with eldar which you already have plenty of, right?

As others told you, it's a bummer for someone who already had enough points of DE or a special character based list.
You can still build a viable force.

Personally, I put them in the backburner because the new codex is a sidegrade that IMO tries to push for coven stuff.
I don't like the haemunculi, and I find most of the new codex going in a direction that does not favor my idea of a fun list, so I'll use my money on something else.

Yeah they might be fun, but as you just stated. Seems like they've pushed a certain play style on the codex. I don't want to feel forced to play certain units to make my army work. And it seems they did it in the past. Like the tyranids now need to use flyrants. It's made my friend hate his army. I like you can use whatever you want in Orks so I'm gonna stick to them me thinks

As someone who has played the new codex extensively, i can say without doubt we are not a bottom tier army. If you haven't noticed, all the new releases have been balanced. We are not trying to bring all the codexes up to Tau/Eldar standard, we are trying to bring them all down to Tyranid standard. Taudar will get their re-release soon and we will hear complaints galor as they come crashing down to the same level as everyone else.

And as of this time, Dark Eldar *can* compete with all the best lists around. Old Codex games against Serpent Spam were, to put it bluntly, pointless. Now Reavers and Scourges give us legitimate answers to that which we had never had before. Invisible Centurionstar? Reavers can charge in and do a load of HOW damage which isn't even effected by Invisibility, and the Reavers only have to survive Grav Cannons (5+ armour save, 3+ Jink) and some Bolter shots. Tau fire base? Drop a Grot bomb or two into their deployment zone along with other turn 2 threats and see that Tau sweat.

If you see a Dark Eldar army that has been tailored to the new codex at work, there isn't a second you'd think they were bottom tier. The fact that certain units that used to be used are worse now shouldn't have much leverage on what is good now for a starting player, because he can make a fun, viable TAC list without much difficulty and with some level of variation. So, the question i ask you is, if the last codex was so fun and balanced and flavorful, why were the only builds i saw used competitively Spammed Venoms and Ravagers and a Baron lead Beastpack? Why did no one use Reavers or Scourges or Electrocorrosive whips? Where were the Mandrakes and Chronus engines and Lady Malys's?

They weren't there because they, like around 60% of the last codex, were either over-shadowed by the 40% or completely useless. At least now that 40% has sky rocketed to 80%, not great i grant you, but it's an improvement. So instead of seeing ''No new units, no love'' think for every unit you lost (Lady Malys, Baron, Duke) you 'gained' a unit that would of never seen the table in the old codex (Mandrakes, Scourges, Grotesques).

I am sorry that we have lost some of our characters (My lovingly converted Baron has been reduced to a Helliarch), but i can say i am not sorry we have lost Venom Spam. I am not sorry that we now have a choice of our Heavy Slot rather then insta-3-Ravager and i am not sorry Wyches lost Haywire grenades. Call it a sidegrade if you wish, but it feels definitively diagonal to me...

I didn't use Venoms - I used Raiders.
I used Incubi
I used Malys
I used an Archon with a power axe even before the FAQ that made huskblades actually good

As many have already pointed out - its not that some things were changed but that choice was taken away and very little added to replace it and in fact some bad units were made worse.

I didn't give a S%£t about competative play - but I am royally pissed that (as I said before)

They made Wyches even worse and laughed at their own fluff.
They took away interesting characters and gave us nothing.
They took Flickerfields and Nightshields away so that Cheese Serpents are once again given yet another boost (as if 7th was not enough on its own)
They now expect us to pay £60 for the Codex - plus likely some dataslates later, well FT.

Units they have removed: Lady Malys, Baron, Duke, Vect, Harlequins*.

They took away characters, but we have gained entire units worth of options. In the last codex i didn't even know their WAS a court of the Archon for all the use it did, now it's a usable and unique unit! And from past books, we KNOW that Force Org altering characters were getting the axe, just ask Wazdakka or to a lesser extent the Parasite (no force org change, but he made Ripper armies a 'thing'). Characters come and go but rarely do they axe entire units, at least now the following are usable!

Units you have gained by virtue of them previously being unplyable or overshadowed: Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Scourges, Grotesques.

Harlequins are a sore subject, because we have 2 pages of fluff for them but no actual unit. I can only see one logical reason for this and it's one i am excited about. Harlequins will be getting their own book ala Legion of the Damned or Tempetus Scions or Imperial Assassins. A grab for money? Maybe. A way to give Harlequin players a way to use them as an army in their own right is a nicer way to look at it.

Flickerfields are still a thing on Venoms, giving them something unique. And if those Serpents have no better targets then to shoot at your troop carrying Raiders then your list is seriously lacking threats. Wyches are bad, but that is nothing new. They had a brief time in the limelight of being great suicidal AV, but if that isn't laughing at their own fluff then the new stuff is basically following it to the letter. And now they expect you to pay (insert however much ALL the following new codexes will cost) plus give you the option to buy supplements and dataslates later.

With all these new options you should be wondering what to do with them all rather then mourning the loss of Special Characters, most of whom only came into existence in the last codex anyhow!

No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.

Joking aside, I did actually use the above drop in my last game. I felt dirty. I think that may have literally been my last game.

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.

Joking aside, I did actually use the above drop in my last game. I felt dirty. I think that may have literally been my last game.

I lol'd

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
We are not trying to bring all the codexes up to Tau/Eldar standard, we are trying to bring them all down to Tyranid standard.

OK I suggest you have another look at the power level differences between the Orks/Nids dex and the SM/GK/SW/IK dexes. However, this is just me responding to a statement that strikes me as incorrect, not me arguing the power level of DE to be a weak one, because honestly I couldn't care less what power level the dex sits at. In fact, I honestly prefer the underdog army. I just want internal balance.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
If you see a Dark Eldar army that has been tailored to the new codex at work, there isn't a second you'd think they were bottom tier.

Never once did I say it was bottom tier, just that it's another poorly written codex to replace the last one.

The fact that certain units that used to be used are worse now shouldn't have much leverage on what is good now for a starting player, because he can make a fun, viable TAC list without much difficulty and with some level of variation.

This is what I pretty much exactly said, it's not that there is more things wrong with the new dex in comparison, and getting into either dex from the start neither has a real heads up on the other. It's just that transitioning between the two dexes is nothing but a money steal and offering you VERY little reward for your new purchase, or reward for your old purchase. I can see that you are going to argue that there is more viable builds in the new dex, which is very debatable, it might be arguably slightly better, but I still found plenty of variation in the last dex, there was much more than Venom spam, like every other dex there is a "most popular" way of building it, and people eventually forget there are other ways to play, because copying the standard is easier than thinking. I got plenty of mileage out of Raiders, Venoms, Jets, Bombers, Reavers, Wyches, Warriors, Trueborn, Wracks, Haemonculi, Archons, Grotesques, Urien, Duke, Baron, Vect, Beastpacks, Ravagersm and Incubi. People who tell me 5th ed was nothing but Venom spam missed the mark. That was just the most popular build, and it's a matter of time before it happens with the new dex, mark my words. But regardless, assuming you are correct in your assumption that the new one is more versatile, the thing is, it's marginally at best. That's not really debateable, it went from a codex with plenty of unplayable units, to a reflection of the codex where all the playable ones become unplayable. Maybe this mirror image will have units that are playable that open up slightly more different build possibilities than before. For the cost of my entire previous army being now useless, not just the codex, I don't think it's a very good improvement. I literally have to start from scratch, not a useable unit from my last codex in a sensible competitive DE build. If this was done for the sake of good balance, and my army had just consisted of stupid OP models before this would be a change I'd be ok with. However, everything was balanced, and the only reason it was nerfed is so that everyone would buy new units. I don't think the cost of the new dex is worth over $1500 (the price of my Wyches, Khymerae, and 3 Ravagers alone).

So, the question i ask you is, if the last codex was so fun and balanced and flavorful, why were the only builds i saw used competitively Spammed Venoms and Ravagers and a Baron lead Beastpack?

Oh well I already answered this. And can you genuinely tell me that you cannot find a good competitive build inside that dex other than Venomspam? Otherwise, using "internets most popular" to argue your point of view is a really bad argument. A their will always be a champion build, show me 3 dexes released since the start of 5th that don't have one.

Why did no one use Reavers or Scourges or Electrocorrosive whips?

Actually before the beastpack gained its popularity, Reavers were the most common addition to the main Venomspam build that was so popular, you can go back and check that. But that's just a little sidepoint.

Where were the Mandrakes and Chronus engines and Lady Malys's?

Keeping the space on our shelf warm for Wyches, Khymerae, Ravagers, Duke, Baron, and excess Venoms. Well, I think Mandrakes are still sitting on the shelf btw, they didn't really get better enough. In fact, unlikely to see Malys or Chronos played a huge amount in 7th either I think.

They weren't there because they, like around 60% of the last codex, were either over-shadowed by the 40% or completely useless. At least now that 40% has sky rocketed to 80%, not great i grant you, but it's an improvement.

Ah. Just letting you know I'm sort of reading your post as I go here, and I just read this, and I can almost agree with it (I think you might to say that the useable percentage of the dex has climbed to 80% not the un-unusable right?). You are right, it's not great, but it may be a slight improvement. Maybe its 60-->80 in your eyes, for me its less. But regardless, this is an improvement I'd be OK with if there was SOME incentive to upgrade to the new dex. GW has offered me none. I can't even keep my old army and add new units to it. I still don't necessarily see it as an improvement at all. It's rife with just as many balance issues as the last.

So instead of seeing ''No new units, no love'' think for every unit you lost (Lady Malys, Baron, Duke) you 'gained' a unit that would of never seen the table in the old codex (Mandrakes, Scourges, Grotesques).

But this is exactly my issue. For every unit I gained, I either lost a model from the dex, or had a model from my army nerfed into oblivion. I understand that I gained all this stuff, what I don't think you are grasping is that we lost almost just as much, leaving us with a codex still as unbalanced internally as the last. Yes I can now use different units, but I would prefer to use the units I already bought all the models for thx, rather than having all that money just sitting on the shelf and having to start again from scratch. This is not something to be happy about, especially when the final product sits at a very similar level to the previous one.

I am sorry that we have lost some of our characters (My lovingly converted Baron has been reduced to a Helliarch), but i can say i am not sorry we have lost Venom Spam. I am not sorry that we now have a choice of our Heavy Slot rather then insta-3-Ravager and i am not sorry Wyches lost Haywire grenades. Call it a sidegrade if you wish, but it feels definitively diagonal to me...

And it definitely feels like a sidegrade, if it is diagonal its definitely diagonally downwards for me.

As someone from 3rd ed, I can understand the disappointment. I was hoping that for a few changes:

Archons used to be the bee‘s knees: A great glass hammer. While you it was never best to charge them at the super hq, they could hold their own and were great fighters. The loss of AP2 defies fluff, but what really gets my goat is that they did not regain being able to buy a bike or skyboard. Marines, Orks, and even CraftWorld eldar can have a bike hq but the faction known for lightning attacks doesn't. Come on.

Wyches I was really hoping for something better to help them get in CC. While PtP did get better, that helped everyone. The dodge save should have been usable in overwatch. Or give them "dance" options that mimicked the imperial priest (except no smash). That would have given them a unique role in the game.

While the new codex is good, I was hoping for a return to when Archons and Wyches would be scary awesome (like in third.)

Yeah, I played against some proxied Dark Eldar with my Chaos Daemons, two words no three TORMENT GRENADE LAUNCHER, YES I ENJOY THAT.

I normally hate Eldar , but the smooth PFP game mechanic, the tactical thought the army requires, etc.. really have me looking to pick this army up. I also played D Eldar initially in third as of the box set.

People complaining about Incubi.. uh.. they get Furious charge. If you come in on turn two and you have them near Urien, or you got the Animus off or they have Haemonoculus with them they have Feel No Pain 3+ armor and AP2 ST5 on the charge.

That's insane.

I think people aren't used to Codexes yet, but Formations, Dataslates etc.. are the way GW is now geared toward. Sorry if your meta doesn't like it and the Tournaments are not embracing it, but seriously that's the direction the game is going towards and it shows with Dark Eldar.

It's an army fundamentally designed to Beta Strike and to purposefully go 2nd. That's really damn interesting from a game play perspective. It never wants to go 1st.

People complaining about Incubi.. uh.. they get Furious charge. If you come in on turn two and you have them near Urien, or you got the Animus off or they have Haemonoculus with them they have Feel No Pain 3+ armor and AP2 ST5 on the charge.

That's insane.

And if they touch any hint of cover they are charging in at I1.

 Andy140491 wrote:
AWWWW MAAAAANN

I guess im gonna have to stick the DE on a back burner also. Its a real shame. I do love the idea of the 'elite' dark eldar. Just feels like they've been gimped.

I'm just going to clarify, that this isn't what I'm saying at all. DE is probably more an elite army than it used to be, with wych and venom spam getting the shoulder for stuff like 12 man courts and beastpacks, Grotesques, Bikes, etc. If you ever wanted to play DE, now is just as good a time as any, the new codex is only marginally better or worse than the old one depending on your stand point. The only real reason NOT to get into DE now if you were planning on ever doing it isn't because the gameplay, it's to deliberately not support GW's decision to completely scam its prior customers. The transition between the two dexes is horrible, and no balancing attempt has been made just an attempt to sell different models. I don't get the people who say "oh its good thing they got rid of Venomspam". No, because they just nerfed last codexes most popular build and replaced it with a new codex that will soon have something similar. They didn't FIX Wyches, they didnt fix beastpacks, they didnt fix Ravagers, they are all just super unbalanced now and absolutely unplayable. Rather than giving you new options on an equivalent level of the units in the popular build, they nerfed the worthwhile units forcing you into other choices that they improved. It would be OK if i had a choice between my Venomspam, Beastpack, Ravager build, and the new cool additions to the dex, but instead they went all out money grab tactica on the customers forcing them into the other half of the dex, providing not significantly improved from the last at all, still completely unbalanced internally and ask $70 for it so that we can all go out and rebuy a new army, and this is pretty unacceptable, and I won't be supporting this decision by spending a single dollar GW's way on this new DE release.

You see I'm fine with all the changes... I wasn't very keen on venom spam, and I love the scourge models so I'm personally enjoying the changes. Especially as I'm yet to buy and army. Eventually I'd like to have the majority of the models anyway. I want to put them in a glass cabinet and have them painted up. Even Wyches and I hate them

The one thing I am upset about is how you say they've nerfed Ravagers. Is it something that's really penalised them? Or something that's just made them slightly less usable then before?

They were a hard unit to justify before, that are so flimsy they need to be taken in multiples of 3 to secure even 1 or 2 getting a shot off. They went up 25 points and had their move before shoot range halved. They are big on unplayable. On the other hand, deepstriking with Disintegrators remains the same cost and the mobility nerf is far less relevant, this option is still playable but it was the less popular and necessary option of the two, however I think an underrated one. I guess it's not fair to describe them as UNPLAYABLE, just not a hugely useful unit at all.

So as a previous Dark eldar player, what heavy support slot would you now use? I hear the Void raven bomber is fairly expensive for armour 101010?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Units they have removed: Lady Malys, Baron, Duke, Vect, Harlequins*.

They took away characters, but we have gained entire units worth of options. In the last codex i didn't even know their WAS a court of the Archon for all the use it did, now it's a usable and unique unit! And from past books, we KNOW that Force Org altering characters were getting the axe, just ask Wazdakka or to a lesser extent the Parasite (no force org change, but he made Ripper armies a 'thing'). Characters come and go but rarely do they axe entire units, at least now the following are usable!

Units you have gained by virtue of them previously being unplyable or overshadowed: Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Scourges, Grotesques.

Harlequins are a sore subject, because we have 2 pages of fluff for them but no actual unit. I can only see one logical reason for this and it's one i am excited about. Harlequins will be getting their own book ala Legion of the Damned or Tempetus Scions or Imperial Assassins. A grab for money? Maybe. A way to give Harlequin players a way to use them as an army in their own right is a nicer way to look at it.

Flickerfields are still a thing on Venoms, giving them something unique. And if those Serpents have no better targets then to shoot at your troop carrying Raiders then your list is seriously lacking threats. Wyches are bad, but that is nothing new. They had a brief time in the limelight of being great suicidal AV, but if that isn't laughing at their own fluff then the new stuff is basically following it to the letter. And now they expect you to pay (insert however much ALL the following new codexes will cost) plus give you the option to buy supplements and dataslates later.

With all these new options you should be wondering what to do with them all rather then mourning the loss of Special Characters, most of whom only came into existence in the last codex anyhow!

Right - did you even read my post and things I was saying were a specific problem for me -

Wyches - you really think WS3 S3 is matching their fluff - they are as adept in Close Combat as a Eldar Guardian - seriously - Seriously??? So because its bad in the past - well that's fine lets keep them bad? Awesome attitude -have you any concept of internal balance and how that helps rather than hinders the game?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Units they have removed: Lady Malys, Baron, Duke, Vect, Harlequins*.

They took away characters, but we have gained entire units worth of options. In the last codex i didn't even know their WAS a court of the Archon for all the use it did, now it's a usable and unique unit! And from past books, we KNOW that Force Org altering characters were getting the axe, just ask Wazdakka or to a lesser extent the Parasite (no force org change, but he made Ripper armies a 'thing'). Characters come and go but rarely do they axe entire units, at least now the following are usable!

Units you have gained by virtue of them previously being unplyable or overshadowed: Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Scourges, Grotesques.

Harlequins are a sore subject, because we have 2 pages of fluff for them but no actual unit. I can only see one logical reason for this and it's one i am excited about. Harlequins will be getting their own book ala Legion of the Damned or Tempetus Scions or Imperial Assassins. A grab for money? Maybe. A way to give Harlequin players a way to use them as an army in their own right is a nicer way to look at it.

Flickerfields are still a thing on Venoms, giving them something unique. And if those Serpents have no better targets then to shoot at your troop carrying Raiders then your list is seriously lacking threats. Wyches are bad, but that is nothing new. They had a brief time in the limelight of being great suicidal AV, but if that isn't laughing at their own fluff then the new stuff is basically following it to the letter. And now they expect you to pay (insert however much ALL the following new codexes will cost) plus give you the option to buy supplements and dataslates later.

With all these new options you should be wondering what to do with them all rather then mourning the loss of Special Characters, most of whom only came into existence in the last codex anyhow!

Right - did you even read my post and things I was saying were a specific problem for me -

Wyches - you really think WS3 S3 is matching their fluff - they are as adept in Close Combat as a Eldar Guardian - seriously - Seriously??? So because its bad in the past - well that's fine lets keep them bad? Awesome attitude -have you any concept of internal balance and how that helps rather than hinders the game?

I don't think i got my intention across, i meant to imply what they had done in this codex is just as bad as what they did in the last codex. In neither codex are they a usable CC unit and while they did get some time as anti vehicle stars, do you really believe that should be their role? But that being said, just because they are noncompetitive doesn't mean they are unplayable. In a friendly environment take as many Melee Wych Boats as you like, just remember to take Urien (The new PFP is quite a big buff for them if you think about it) to go with them. The new codex hasn't fixed them, i agree and mourn that. I am afraid they now occupy the empty space on my shelf left by my Court and my Mandrakes. But by all means, apart from being a suicide squad, they were NEVER a competitive choice, So i don't think the design team has any clue how to make a good non-sv CC unit at all really from looking at other codexes

People who live by this myth that Wyches weren't a competitive choice in 6th are kidding themselves or still stuck in 5th.


They were hands down the best thing to put inside a Venom.

I have said several times that taking haywire was fine with me if they had made Wyches actually proper CC units. I do agree GW are getting worse and worse at this and in particular CC units.

I loved them in the first incarnation of the DE Codex - taking slaves etc -- they did this to a Greater Daemon of Khrone once - much fun - now they are just there to hold up units - awesome...........

I am not talking about Competitive play- I am talking about units matching the fluff. Its the same with Howling Banshee.

I don't want to have to take Urien, I don't want to have to take Eldar allies (even though I have a large Eldar army), I don't want to have to but supplements and data slates after a £30 Codex.

I want to be able to field a Wych Cult army on its own - and that's why this edition and this Codex will remain unbought and back to the OP - the reason why I am so angry with the Codex makers and GW.

It looks like I will use my DE army for other games /stuff, Kill team and self made games / system conversions, the 6.5 version of the rules we are now messing with.

I used to buy every Codex for all armies but this way of making Codexes has now finally killed my interest in the current edition and hence lost them my money. I'll still buy the odd model - like the new bomber but that's it.