I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why: - Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better. - Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad. - Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy. - Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss. - Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis? - No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively. - Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model. - Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists. It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.
The whole point of the Guard is that they are the underdog, the weak non-modified regular dude in a world of psychotically murderous aliens and insane God-charged supermen. The regular Joe who sees the horrors of the universe, grasps his torch and buckles up that t-shirt, and holds the line.
Somebody needs to carry the worst weapons in the game. You cannot have S4 for everybody because the Bolter is supposed to be a noteworthy weapon for how good it is. Either Guard get the bog standard, mass-produced mediocrity of S3, or Marines are being equipped with bog standard, mass-produced S4. For all the Marine books in the game, Guardsmen are supposed to be what is 'normal' in terms of equipment and power level.
And in terms of points, people seem to be taking far more of those overpriced Guardsmen than the underpriced Orks, especially when you start reading the big games. Their strengths are in mass volume of price-efficient, individually mediocre troops and grinding out in faith that your numbers will outlast theirs because they are bigger.
I kind of agree. The rules are really dumb for Guardsmen. Plus the Plastics for them are so bad.
But I realize this is because most of the rules are kind of bad in GW games.
Conscripts shouldnt exist because conscript doesnt mean what GW seems to think it means. Blobs of men are just stupid to have running around and the army is practically fearless.
Where my opinion differs is that the Guard dont suck, they are really good if used stupidly. But well everything about them in the 40k game is just dumb in my opinion.
Its my favorite faction and the only faction I play. But I hate the fact I play them really. Its more to do with how the rules work though and how the codex is written.
Yeah.. guard are one the higher tier armies right now, and the codex is fairly balanced as well. Yes boltgun individually are better weapons, but then the advantage of a lasguns is you can take 110 guardsmen all firing either 2 or 3 shots for 560pts. If you drown a tactical squad in that much lasfire it won't matter if it's strength 3 ap -, they're gonna fail at least 5 or more armour saves.
Oh and then there's the anti space marine tanks.. of which we can take 12... Yeah your average marine can survive a few las rounds, but we still outclassed you regardless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Applying modern tactics to guard don't work very well all the time, if you want success a lot then you need to treat them like they should be. They are line infantry that need to be supported by armour and heavy artillery. Fire massed volleys of lasguns fire and lob high ex shells into the enemies lines. Sure you'll take losses but you can afford to, cause chances are you'll have around a company of infantry.
Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
There is a reason that the lasgun is called a flashlight.
And, no, a machine-gun is not more effective. A standard machinegun is basically a lasgun.
An Ork Shoota is more akin to a boltgun than it is a lasgun. You're comparing apples to watermelons.
Hellguns have always been superior at armor penetration than a lasgun, but no more effective at then killing the thing inside that armor. That's just an oddity of hellguns. Not sure why.
Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
Yep. That's how it works.
Those guys that pissed Gaunt off on Aexe Cardinal by stealing the Tanith's medical supplies and punching Ana Curth in the face didn't get an Armor Save either when Gaunt drew his bolt pistol and shot them, two standing there, the other running away. It's what Commissars do. They execute the cowardly.
Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
Yep. Flak armor is cheap, mass-produced, and doesn't stop much more than the falling rain (which, as it so happens, has the same effectiveness as a lasgun). That's what it's like in the Guard.
Notice how the Tanith mostly fought guys with lasguns and not bolters? There's a reason for that.
No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
Tanks. Lots and lots of tanks. The IG Infantry is not meant to take down MCs, not without massed heavy weapons, meltabombs, lascannons, or similar weapons. The IG is not meant to fight Godzilla and win, not unless the Emperor Himself smiles upon the lowly Guardsman.
Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
That's because they pretty much are. The Conscripts are to IG Infantry what Cultists are to CSM or Grots are to Ork Boyz. They're not supposed to be compared to one another. Don't compare Cultists to Grots or IG Conscripts to Cultists. They're not the same thing.
bibotot wrote: I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
With FRFSRF I regularly put out about 60-80ish shots. As a sig once said, that's a whole lot of diddly and on every other occasion you'll probably heavily damage an infantry unit, scoring at least a few casualties usually.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
Except Mob Rule is laughable because it no longer makes you fearless- you can literally lose a few shirt boys, fail your LD7, then get a bad result on Mob Rule twice (this is hardly impossible given how luck based the game can be at times) so your 24~ Boy Mob runs away. A Commissar gives you pseudo-fearless as you will never suffer penalties from a failed morale check so long as he executes someone. And you get GTG.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
Yes, but go in cover and the only difference between Guardsmen and Marines defensively for the most part is a single point of toughness.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
....
Hahahahahaha. That practice has been ridiculously common since the tank was invented and you had things like the Mark 1 where it had its weapons switched out between ordnance and machine guns. Everyone and his dog has been doing it for a hundred years.
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
I use a combination of Vendettas, Executioners and the Pask Punisher. Every unit in my army has AP2/1 except my Chimeras. I do not struggle with 5-6 wound MC's.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
A meaty Ork Mob usually reaches about 220~ points with the Nob. I can have a fearless 30 man blob of Guardsmen for 175 points that can hold off a fair amount of infantry, especially with fire support.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
Yes, but for 175 points I could have 50 fearless Conscripts, while with Cultists there is no economical or effective way to run them in hordes period.
It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.
....hahaha.
As others have said, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
Shootas are not firing 'scrap bullets'. Shootas fire massive hunks of metal big enough and fast enough to have the same killing power as 1" diametre high explosive rounds.
The lasgun is equivalent to a 7.62×51mm NATO rifle, except it carries a significantly higher number of rounds and is considerably lighter and easier to carry.
bibotot wrote: I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:
(1) find better players.
(2) have said players 'learn to play'.
(3) weep as the guard steamroll the opposition.
Lasguns are far superior to any modern fire arm. its just that compared to all the huge nasty things in the 41st millennium they're rather weak comparatively.
A heavy stubber is Str4 ap6. The Heavy Stubber is, literally, a .50cal. The good old M2 .50 is still in production in the far future.
Lasguns are actually a very good weapon, logistically speaking. Its still strong enough to threaten most infantry sized targets when used in large numbers. And its cheap, easy to maintain, simple to use, and it only requires energy for ammo. Thats why the guard use it. Bolters, which are basically .75 caliber rocket propelled automatic rifled grenade launchers, are far more expensive. No way are you equipping everyone with a bolter. if the Imperium could, they would, but they can't, so they shant!
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
That's the point. Orks were encountered, the basic stuff of humanity (lasguns) weren't up to it so the bolter was created which was effective due to its massive stopping power vs their hardened biology. The numbers of the orks and the difficulty is the point. Its grimdark. This is the case with all alien movies and settings, from Predator to Starship Troopers, where the alien needs 20 shots vs a human who needs 1. Ork shootas are big fethers of guns. They fire huge rounds at a phenomenal ROF.
Ork punches his mate because his mate isn't running fast enough. Leather jacket/metal plate stops it. They then get back to smashing humies.
Commissar puts 1 bolter round through the skull (fluffwise, .75 armour penetrating explosive round at point blank range. Rules-wise, Str 4 AP5, and pressed against his head it is guarenteed to hit and wound.). If the man somehow survives the Commissar fires again until dead.
Bolter rounds are .75 calibre armour penetrating explosive rounds for taking down things much larger than humans wearing kevlar. Tau Pulse rifles fire plasma slugs, Eldar shurikens and DE Splinters fire monomolecular discs and needles respectively, like tiny ninja stars and pins that can pass through the fibres of their clothes. Necron Gauss strips molecules from the target. Tyranid Fleshborers (Str4 AP5) fire beetles the size of your fist that chew through your face. A kevlar vest and your breeches arn't going to help.
They've been doing that for years and its the same as every other Imperial vehicle. Its the way they build. Take a chassis, put on weapons, give the pattern a name and call it a day.
Like every other race? Asides from ID the only way to kill a 6 wound MC is weight of fire which IG do best.
So your models are cheaper than what are described as an innumerable horde that have spread everywhere it is possible to spread in the universe? Next.
Part of the setting, stop hating on the company with no good reason, stop hating on the army because you got beat and then go get good at the damn game and stop whining about how your army loses to the Orks who's new Codex screwed over numerous playstyles (Ghazkul nob and Meganob lists, Wazdakka Biker Boyz) and moved their best HQ to a slot competing with Titans and giving him the nerfbat. Meanwhile IG have been fairly solid since their last Codex at the start of 5th Ed way back in 2008 and asides from some minor characters, most things stayed the same, got cheaper or more bang for their buck, your best HQ stays in HQ slot and frees your LoW to chuck out an Outflanking Baneblade (or just switch the gun and call it another name) or Titan, plus Imperial Knights, and allies with the following Codexes: Space Marines, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, Assassins, Stormtroopers (which you can field as part of your IG force anyway) and supplements for those armies like Sentinals of Terra, Clan Raakun, Legion of the Damned, Champions of Fenris. Whereas Orks get 1 measley supplement for Ghaz, who is now in the BSLoW slot competing with Titans and Stompas, and Nerfed to kingdom come alongside being unable to field Nobs as troops.
As for being porrly represented and awesome, no they are not. Fact is that humans are an incredible squishy fragile creature. Trying to match them against the races of 40k is like asking a spaniel to fight lions, pythons and gorillas. The Orks are vastly most resilient, the Eldar of both kinds far too advanced and quick, the Tau too technologically advanced, the Necrons too resilent and advanced. Cain and Gaunt get away on plot armour. Its for story purposes. If it were any regular guardsmen they would be dead in the first chapter. Same for any action movie or TV show. Heroes get away at the last minute or die and the thing ends on shock value.
To summarise, being a human in the 41st Millenium is suicide. Going to war against vastly superior foes is suicide. That's what Space Marines, who can actually compete with the others in terms of resilience, speed, technology and add their own brand of gung-ho faith and determination that makes action heroes succeed.
I do wish that the idiosyncrasies of different guard regiments were more pronounced (bring back doctrines) but I otherwise like the way they're just ballsy, disciplined troops going about their business. Also plenty of room for historical inspired conversions.
#1: Pretend your Armour Save does not exist. Cover and Transports are your friends.
#2: Pretend Lasguns do not exist. Bring lots of better guns and have a celebration every time a Lasgun actually does kill something.
#3: Pick a freakin theme. Too many people grab a lil of this and a lil of that thinking it'll all mesh. Don't allow people that chance to kill the one thing that scares them, because you brought multiples.
#4: Bubblewrap only goes so far. You probably want an ally to help stop things before they hit your lines.
On a side note, I also think Conscripts are practically worthless. If you didn't have to buy them as part of a Platoon they would be a valid choice imo. When you've already bought a PCS and a mini-blob just to unlock them, you can't take advantage of how cheap they are.
Deadshot wrote: As for being porrly represented and awesome, no they are not. Fact is that humans are an incredible squishy fragile creature. Trying to match them against the races of 40k is like asking a spaniel to fight lions, pythons and gorillas. The Orks are vastly most resilient, the Eldar of both kinds far too advanced and quick, the Tau too technologically advanced, the Necrons too resilent and advanced. Cain and Gaunt get away on plot armour. Its for story purposes. If it were any regular guardsmen they would be dead in the first chapter. Same for any action movie or TV show. Heroes get away at the last minute or die and the thing ends on shock value.
To summarise, being a human in the 41st Millenium is suicide. Going to war against vastly superior foes is suicide. That's what Space Marines, who can actually compete with the others in terms of resilience, speed, technology and add their own brand of gung-ho faith and determination that makes action heroes succeed.
Honestly the weakness of the single guardsman in the best part. There is nothing better than a puny guardsman punching way above his weight to save the day.
A few games back I had a regular non upgraded Sgt face off against 2 wound remaining Ghazghkull in challenge once. His nob squad with painboy and armor had made it through tons of artillery and lasgun shots. The rest of his nobs ate his squad. The Sgt did a single wound before turning into paste bringing the Beast down to 1W. Next turn it took two a Vulture and Punisher Pask to score that last wound. They did have to chew through the rest of his squad. However, that Sgt did his job. He died standing while holding the line effectively doing the same thing as around 500 points of other models.
IG have problems, but they're not the worst army. Most of their armor is exceedingly easy for most armies armies to deal with in the era of HP's and none of them have been changed in cost or abilities to account for that, and the infantry, unless blobbed, is all easy to kill and not all costed accordingly, particularly heavy weapons units. The IG army sticks relatively close to the "basic" rules, not a whole lot that's Fast, no overlapping saves, their psykers aren't terribly impressive, nothing that can produce an on-demand 3+ jink save in the open, or any of the other things that keep the big dogs at the top. There's some awful internal balance on top of all that, only exacerbated by the newest codex.
That said, they aren't awful, they're just somewhat awkward.
To the specific complains
Commissar Executes - kind of a pain, but not the end of the world, especially if used in a large blob where you won't care what gets lost, and that's usually the only place they're worth taking in the first place.
Lasguns - that's the way they've always been. They're not impressive, but whatever, guardsmen are cheap.
Hotshot Lasgun - no argument, it sucks hard, as do the Stormtrooper/Scion units in general, the AP3 is largely irrelevant, the short range and low S has crippled Stormtroopers forever and GW thinks AP3 makes everything better.
5+ armor - yeah, it's largely pointless, but the infantry are cheap anyway. They're not supposed to be Space Marines. If you compared IG to other like units, such as Cultists or Guardians or whatnot, they don't come out all that bad, it's just when the basic troop is a T4 3+sv infantry unit, perceptions shift.
Baneblade - not sure what you're getting at here.
6 Wound MC's - there's nothing in the game that deals with these terribly effectively, you usually need several units to engage these.
5pt Guardsmen - Yeah, Ork boyz are way better. They're not spectacularly well priced, but cheap enough. The game has a meta-problem with infantry this cheap, in that very small adjustments make huge differences, taking 2ppm off makes them absurdly cheap, 1ppm more makes them clearly overcosted, they could stand to be 4ppm, but that's just me.
Conscripts - yeah, kinda pointless, especially with platoon blobs, goes back to that whole "bad internal balance" thing.
There's bigger things to worry about than most of these. The absurd prices of Hellhounds+variants, awful state of almost all IG Elites, the core game rules making non-skimmer Medium armor a joke, etc.
I play guard in the most unorthodox fashion. I don't use any wheeled or tracked vehicles (except the forge world tauros in the future as that works with my fluff) because they live on a forest planet where trees regrow in a years time. There are no roads because of this and thus they have to use vehicles and equipment that can operate in these conditions. That leaves Sentinels and aircraft. My regiment is a volunteer veteran organization that is not officially affiliated with the imperial guard. It receives its gear from the home world and by being contracted by imperial commanders and inquisitors. They are a very different force because of their home world and very selective recruitment process.
All of my troops are veterans and have camo cloaks.
I need sentinels which can perform a multipurpose roles
I need aircraft for rapid insertion and Anti Tank.
What the book is lacking for me is the ability to give my light infantry guys infiltrate. Since i rely on sentinels and aircraft for "heavy support" i need to run unbound armies which makes it even harder to get the infiltrate warlord trait.
Something that would also be amusing is if they gave imperial guardsmen stuff like the auxiliary krak grenade launchers.
The book itself is great and is highly competitive, there is no real problem with it if you play a traditional force. There must be something inherently wrong with op's list or something, because even i can get wins now and then.
The real strengths of the IG is the ability to bring lots of everything and the ability to meta any threat you might encounter. the key to IG is knowing which units to bring into your army list for the battle at hand.
I went undefeated this season with my 91st Cadians. This was versus Grey Knights, Salamanders, Ultramarines, Tyranids, Eldar, and Necrons. Creating the proper matchups where your units will be at their most effective is the key to running with the IG.
Sledgehammer wrote: I play guard in the most unorthodox fashion. I don't use any wheeled or tracked vehicles (except the forge world tauros in the future as that works with my fluff) because they live on a forest planet where trees regrow in a years time. There are no roads because of this and thus they have to use vehicles and equipment that can operate in these conditions. That leaves Sentinels and aircraft. My regiment is a volunteer veteran organization that is not officially affiliated with the imperial guard. It receives its gear from the home world and by being contracted by imperial commanders and inquisitors. They are a very different force because of their home world and very selective recruitment process.
All of my troops are veterans and have camo cloaks.
I need sentinels which can perform a multipurpose roles
I need aircraft for rapid insertion and Anti Tank.
What the book is lacking for me is the ability to give my light infantry guys infiltrate. Since i rely on sentinels and aircraft for "heavy support" i need to run unbound armies which makes it even harder to get the infiltrate warlord trait.
Something that would also be amusing is if they gave imperial guardsmen stuff like the auxiliary krak grenade launchers.
The book itself is great and is highly competitive, there is no real problem with it if you play a traditional force. There must be something inherently wrong with op's list or something, because even i can get wins now and then.
Still say you should use the Elysian rules as a whole, they describe your army fluff perfectly.
I have played Guard for going on four years now, and loved every second of it. I've found them to be a very flexible army in terms of gameplay, and the fluff with them is open enough that I can run them as a Baal PDF and no one questions it, because mine are red
Gameplay wise, I have two rules.
1) Keep them cheap
2) Bring enough Guardsmen so that when half your infantry dies in a turn, you still outnumber your opponent
And yet....
Point for point there is no more effective basic infantry weapon against other basic infantry than a lasgun, even before the order that makes them 33% more effective.
Funny, that.
No tools to beat MCs? Massed Lascannons, vendettas or the insanely nasty Paskisher don't count I guess. Pask puts about 10 wounds on a Riptide, with 4 on average being AP2.
Maybe your resident IG player (or you, if that's you) needs to actually learn to use their army.
- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.
Those are the default official models, and there are lots of official variants.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
Command squad orders vary this. Get enough dice rolling, they take down Terminators, hordes, everything below T7.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
Point-blank shots hurt, a lot. Also, that Commissar is going to keep shooting until the Serg is dead.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
Use cover or transports. Use tactics, not heavy, costly, armour.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
Mass-produced chassis, multiple variants. You want to complain about the Rhino chassis, too?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
Weight-of-fire. Or the various squadrons of S8-10 cannons.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
An Ork Boy has a superior stat-line. S4, T4 etc. A horde of Shootas might survive the first volley, but would easily win in a punch-up.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
Welcome to the Grimdark Imperium.
It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.
Fluff =/= gameplay. The awesomeness of the IG/AM comes from the litttle-guy holding his own against the galaxy. Heroes like the Ghosts are the inspiration the man-in-the-street needs to sign up in the first place (if he gets a choice).
Conscripts are not compulsory.
Conscripts are absolutely awsome. Lets forget about allies making them even better for a moment. 50 conscripts with a priest cost 175pts, are fearless, reroll failed hits and usually wounds in combat. Can camp an objective all game long, can tie up meaty assault units for most of the game and can give you massive board control.
40 conscripts with priest do the same and cost 145pts. A bare bones 10 man tactical squad with flamer costs the same. Guess which is tougher on average, guess which is least likely to fall back, guess which mathmatically puts out more firepower, guess which is more dangerous in combat? The answer to all is the conscripts.
In regards to the OP I have to agree, you or your resident local IG/AM player needs to learn his army a bit better and you really need to talk to people about their armies that know what they are doing, you CLEARLY don't have a lot of information when it comes to the IG. A lot of it seems that you are going off fluff compared to gameplay, they HAVE to dumb it down for the game or otherwise you would have armies like Space Marines being 6's across the board base with AP3 guns! The IG are a strong army and have some of the best flexibility available in the entire game, this includes being able to ally with other Imperial Armies and have access to their toys. However I do agree on a few points:
-Models are not great, nothing against Cadian players I just don't like the look mainly because they are the only readily available plastic option besides Catachans (don't ask me about Catachans). It is solved however by biting the bullet and going either Forgeworld Elysians (the best! ) or DKOK or even getting pewter Steel Legion.
-More variety is needed in the book, they really need or needed to bring back Doctrines. I understand that how they designed the book was to try and give you enough options to do so, however the 4th edition Guard Codex (if I remember correctly it was this one) will always be one of my favorites just because of Doctrines as it actually gave your regiment some uniqueness.
-Hot Shot Lasguns on Storm Troopers, now don't get me wrong. I understand a standard Lasgun being S3 and to me it makes perfect sense. Now in the fluff a Hot Shot Lasgun is a much more powerful beam that can penetrate power armor and readily deal with the tougher opponents of the Imperium (read the Militarium Tempestus book for more info for example). I personally would be okay with a S4 AP4 weapon over the S3 AP3 but that's just me.
Whilst I don't agree with all of the OP's points, I do feel that my IG are completely outclassed at the moment. And, when I say outclassed, I mean it even by IG standards.
Oh well, at least I can enjoy my army's unusual theme.
- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.
Well, it's certainly true that most guardsmen look like angry-potatoes (or, just to mix things up, potatoes having strokes). However, nice 28mm human miniatures aren't exactly hard to find elsewhere - and (if you happen to be a lottery-winner) Forge World do some very nice IG infantry.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
Hellgun is awful (and worse still when it jacks up the price of Scions), but Lasguns aren't so bad. They're naff individually, but on 5pt models they can be decent en mass (especially with First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!).
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
Well, it wouldn't be much of an execution of the man didn't actually die.
COMMISSAR - Deserters will be shot!
*shoots a fleeing guardsman*
*guardsman gets up*
GUARDSMAN - I'm ok! My armour actually stopped the bullet. Ha! First time for everything.
*guardsman continues running*
GUARDSMAN #2 - "Sir, can we run away and be shot as deserters too? Only, your weapon seems far less fatal than the enemy's weapons..."
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
Well, it depends on the MC. Flying ones are certainly a problem. Same with the Riptide and Wraithknight. But then, that's less of a problem with IG, and more a problem with flier rules being borked, and the latter two being OP.
However, most others are pretty susceptible to plasma and meltaguns - and our veteran squads can take 3 of either.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
I think part of the problem is that GW has written themselves into a corner when it comes to unit costs. Small changes at this level make a massive difference, and they don't seem to want to use costs like 4.5. it probably doesn't help that marines were made 14pts per model - which really didn't leave much wriggle room in terms of costing all weaker units.
Frankly, at this point, I'd settle for leaving IG infantry costs alone (with the possible exception of scions), and instead making the cost of our gear a bit more reasonable (e.g. put our power weapons/fists back to 5th edition prices).
In terms of the comparison with Ork Boyz, I'm a bit undecided. I mean, we do have better range (and, if I remember correctly, they do have to pay 1pt per model to get their 18" range weapons) and we have (arguably) better support stuff in terms of orders. In any case, with all the crap I see these days, Ork Boyz make for a pleasant change.
Also, if it makes you feel any better, we do get saves against their guns.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
Well, what do you expect? I mean, they're only human. Humans aren't particularly durable when it comes to surviving lasers, bullets etc. And, whilst they can be trained to be good in melee or shoot a gun accurately, those qualities are hardly present from birth. And, it's made pretty clear that, guardsmen and conscripts are just treated like ammunition by the Imperium.
bibotot wrote: - No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
Well, it depends on the MC. Flying ones are certainly a problem. Same with the Riptide and Wraithknight. But then, that's less of a problem with IG, and more a problem with flier rules being borked, and the latter two being OP. However, most others are pretty susceptible to plasma and meltaguns - and our veteran squads can take 3 of either.
Riptides and Wraithknights are not OP, they are 200+ point models that are on par with the cost of x2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, they better be good and they are. However they are both susceptible to massive amounts of fire, which the IG can bring pretty easily to the table. A few Heavy Weapon squads with Lascannons and Orders or a few Leman Russ Tanks can deal with them pretty easily, not to mention Vendettas.
Sledgehammer wrote: I play guard in the most unorthodox fashion. I don't use any wheeled or tracked vehicles (except the forge world tauros in the future as that works with my fluff) because they live on a forest planet where trees regrow in a years time. There are no roads because of this and thus they have to use vehicles and equipment that can operate in these conditions. That leaves Sentinels and aircraft. My regiment is a volunteer veteran organization that is not officially affiliated with the imperial guard. It receives its gear from the home world and by being contracted by imperial commanders and inquisitors. They are a very different force because of their home world and very selective recruitment process.
All of my troops are veterans and have camo cloaks.
I need sentinels which can perform a multipurpose roles
I need aircraft for rapid insertion and Anti Tank.
What the book is lacking for me is the ability to give my light infantry guys infiltrate. Since i rely on sentinels and aircraft for "heavy support" i need to run unbound armies which makes it even harder to get the infiltrate warlord trait.
Something that would also be amusing is if they gave imperial guardsmen stuff like the auxiliary krak grenade launchers.
The book itself is great and is highly competitive, there is no real problem with it if you play a traditional force. There must be something inherently wrong with op's list or something, because even i can get wins now and then.
Still say you should use the Elysian rules as a whole, they describe your army fluff perfectly.
I would probably use Elysians, but they do not have access to camo cloaks and those are modeled on all of my guys. Camo cloaks in ruins + go to ground gives a 2 up cover. You can then use get back in the fight to nullify the negative effects of going to ground.
What imperial guard really need is a system where you can get certain upgrades for a negative modifier.
For instance a mechanized infantry regiment should be able to make chimeras assault vehicles, but in return make the infantry slower on foot. (like always rolling for difficult terrain).
A light infantry regiment having moves through cover and infiltrate, but cannot take lemon russes or artillery.
An engineer corps that reduces scatter on artillery emplacements, but have -1 to leadership.
simple lines like that could make the guard so much more interesting.
Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
There is a reason that the lasgun is called a flashlight.
And, no, a machine-gun is not more effective. A standard machinegun is basically a lasgun.
An Ork Shoota is more akin to a boltgun than it is a lasgun. You're comparing apples to watermelons.
*Automatic rifle, not machine gun. There's a massive difference.
What? You're complaining about summary execution not granting an armour save? You're confusing the purpose of mob rule and SE here. The ork player wants to have those saves and keep all his attacks.
We, on the other hand, want that coward dead. There is no room for those who fail to do their duty.
The fact that I had to reply and dig up my info to do so on this site... wow... must be a real interesting thread.
I think that you don't really understand the guard as an army if you feel they are the worse thing possible as you described in your first post.
I've run a guard army since third edition, I can tell you that the force has improved and worsened through the editions, but have never been rendered unplayable. I'd rank the codex strenth as 4th, 5th, sixth and third (this is mostly due to my love of the customization available in the fourth edition guard dex.
re: model appearance: I remember the REALLY old guard models from the imperial army box, these cadians are pretty nice looking given the age of the sculpt... Catachans are older, except Tshirts and brass ones instead of helmets and armor. The models themselves are not necessarily bad, and its one of the few ranges of models that have most/all the options in plastic for them. Nowadays, command boxes (and to a degree the regular box) makes special weapons without having to buy extra dudes. While no longer the awesome deal they were in 2003 (20 for 25 freedom-bucks), the models are the same. They represent the basic, non-enhanced human soldier fighting in a galaxy of cybernetic beings, gods they can't really comprehend, super-genetically engineered warriors and alien cultures that until they took off on their recruitment lander probably never even thought of.... I think the "style" is pretty good to match the fluff. They are basically supposed to be the equivalent to the "mobile light infantry" from the starship troopers movie, rather than the MI from the book.
Re: lasgun- its a ubiquitous, simple, easily reproduced weapon that can be fired by anyone with minimal training. What says regular human better than a semi/auto rifle? The guard spends much of its time in fluff putting down insurrections, fighting cultists and other similar enemies, a shot from a lasgun is enough to put down the average enemy - another human. Ork fighting is a rarity based on the fluff. Would the US military give every soldier rocket launchers during the second world war when fighting japan? It would be impractical. Additionally, the cheapest currence in the IOM is human life, that flashlight is more valuable than the man holding it. The IG works on the "quantity has a quality all its own" idea. A ten man squad firing at 24 in will get 10 shots, if they receive FRFSRF, it becomes 20, now, if you happen to be at half range for RF, that just became thirty shots. If your guard squads are combined, say, a 30 man squad, that number goes up significantly. Its not that the shots are inidividually strong, its the fact that each enemy dudesmen will have to take a much higher number of saves, increasing the likelihood they fail saves. I've seen deathwing armies get lasgunned to death, its not as weak as you seem to think it is. Fluffwise, lasgun ammo doesn't weigh more than the cartridge put in the weapon and the weapon itself... have you ever tried carrying a large load of ammunition for a rifle? It's heavy.
Commissars "can" execute now, and this edition is much nicer than older editions. In 3rd you executed the highest rank dude and THEN took a test to see if they stayed on comm's ld, if they didn't the commissar got removed and you ran away anyway.
As for your complaints on wounding monstrous creatures, you should look at the orders the guard can give. Your HWS need to be prioritizing MCs, as should your high strength shooting. If you don't have HWS and are not playing vet guard, you are doing it wrong. If you are a vet player, 2 squads of triple plasma with a demo charge WILL put down most any creature especially with command squad support. Similarly, a pair of fully kitted leman russ executioners will make fried trout out of trygons, demon princes, etc. I personally prefer specialized HWS, one squad is full lascannon antitank/monster, another with autocannons (str7 will reliably put wounds on most big monsters) and either another Lascannon or a rocket launcher squad. I will periodically use mortars against armies like orks... give the order that allows for pinning and start dropping templates on them.
Same with saves... they are guardsmen, their lives are less costly to the imperium than the armor they wear. The guard infantry should as a rule, be deployed in cover. With the exception of marines, most armies need to use cover to improve their survivability. Want to see something difficult to shift? A full platoon in a fortress of redemption or a similar building, with commissars and priests attached. Good luck shifting that off the objective. If your guard are in close combat and you didn't mean to put them there... you did it wrong.
Conscripts are essentially untrained humans with gear on them. With the exception of using them to tie up deathstar units (attach priest and/or commissar) the unit is there to eat bullets for tanks or hop in front of your useful infantry to give cover saves.
Tempestus are supposed to be special forces... they take forever to train and get better weapons because they can work independently. They get shorter range, but stronger weapons and some extra armor. A 4+ save still gets eaten by everything ranging from chainaxes to standard heavt weapons. Think of the guard as a cross between the soviet army in ww2 and the draftee parts of the US army in the north african campaign... there are SOME competent soldiers and formations, but for the most part, the greatest strength of the army is that nearly every unit is expendable to some degree. You can feed units peacemeal to the enemy solely for the purpose of extending the amount of time you can fire at them.
Last point for me, the orders, which came into effect in 5th and were improved in the new book REALLY make the guard effective. The lasgun order is one of SEVERAL which can make a guard player's regular dudes nasty and mobile in a way you wouldn't really expect.
This edition we even get vehicle commanders AND vehicle orders.
While I am sad at the loss of my awesome griffins, I welcome a great deal of the changes.
Strong? This is the poorest attemp of trolling i have ever seen in my forum life jajajaja, imperial guard is and always be one of the toughtest armys in the 40k, fluff and rule wise. Here a quote from 1d4chan, to show how awsome are the guardsmen:
"The foot soldiers of the Imperial Guard take to the field equipped with nothing more than the 40k equivalent of flak jackets, glorified laser pointers, a copy of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer (if they have not already used it for toilet paper. Note: it is highly recommended that you do not use it as toilet paper, to prevent BLAMing) and a pair of Mars-pattern forged titanium plated balls. Please note that whilst the Lasgun and Flak armor are very good by modern standards, they're just flashlights and t-shirts compared to the automatic mini-rocket launchers and power armor everyone else uses. This means they have balls of steel (as in Duke Nukem would say, "Holy gak! I thought I had balls of steel!"). "
I agree with the description, and i am a space wolf player
Nothing funny about a factual statement, if you're having issues then you might want to change your list or tactics up.
Your subjective opinion is not fact, especially when you clearly advertise the fact that you play Tau. Let's make that clear.
Whilst I would concede that Wraith Knights are reasonably well balanced given their considerable investment, Riptides are very easy to consider to at least some degree overpowered; I refuse to bog this thread down with too much detail, but even starting off with the facts that you can get an effectively-infinite-range, near infinite LOS-due-to-height S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser that is more often than not is several orders of magnitude harder to kill than a Leman Russ and a Land Raider (even if it doesn't Nova) and moves 6+2D6 a turn for 185 points , anyone with eyes and two braincells to rub together can clearly see it doesn't match up in balance when you draw comparisons. 5 points for an Ion Accelerator, come on, seriously?
Now you can say this and that about a progressive meta, and I don't think they're as drop-dead broken now as they were at their release , but they're still slightly overpowered and against a fair portion of opponents outside of the greater competitive meta it still proves crucially unfair.
Back in the days of 6th, without the latest AM Codex, it was hell trying to kill those things; literally the only thing that worked well at killing them was plasma Vets, Vendettas and Executioners; don't feed me the bull about ignoring them either. Since the book came out all we really gained to that list was the Pask Punisher/Executioner squadron/tank and perhaps better Lascannon blobs; though I still see no great gain in taking the the blob. The good thing is that the Pask unit/tank is actually extremely effective, thank the lord, because I usually take it.
Still, if you're faced with the prospect of Riptides, the amount of variation in your list evaporates into thin air as you are forced to consider Riptide killers/tacklers. That's not as much a subjective opinion as that is an observation I've made time and time again for myself and others. The very existence of Riptides made C:IG and to a more negligible extent makes C:AM all round worse.
I used to run guard and I eventually had to switch to something else due to how frustrated I was. Seemed like I was getting trashed by turn 2 and the game was essentially over. It's an army that requires a lot of know how and balance. Lasguns are worthless everybody knows that. I hate the saying "yeah but it's easy to mass fire" I once fired 90 shots with one blob, over watched with another 60 shots and that blob failed to cause a single wound. You really need to know your stuff in order to make them effective. I had to dump them and pick up an army that was a little kinder and had things more in their favor. I love the imperial guard and I actually love the basic Cadian look. But man it was hard to have fun watching 60 men get cleaved in one assault.
They absolutely have some strong points, Pask for example is a terror on the field. But be prepared to sink some serious money into vehicles if you want to go vehicle heavy. Their armor was a lot of fun to use, but the brunt of the damage relied on ordnance and I couldn't roll a direct hit to save my life. They're a fun army but not ideal for beginners.
What I told my friend was that every battle felt like a war, every kill felt like I killed a Titan and every assault I survived felt like I went a round against mike Tyson as glass joe.
AM is boring and I have no clue how they fit into the 40k universe of high technology, power armor and badass aliens. I table them most of the time and I play SW which aren't exactly a power gamer army. If anyone wants to see how "good" guard is, check their win rate in 7th on TOF. They're barely above last place. Last time I checked they were 2% higher than the worst army in 40k. How does anyone paint so many boring looking models that are mediocre at best on the tabletop?
IG can be strong or weak, boring or interesting, depending on how you play it, I've been using IG (amongst other armies) since 3rd ed, and here are some of my observations:
1. Hobby - awesome! You can create an IG army to be whatever you want it to be. The web has tons of examples, and it's really up to you. I've got an army based on WW2 dudes, another army based on Vietnam war dudes, and one WIP army inspired by WW1 Brits. You can do a zombie-based one, samurai, spongebob, anime or whatever you like. Sure, the 2 basic plastic ranges from GW aren't the best, but being IG you're really spoiled for choice how you can convert, substitute, kit bash - or just use the basic ones anyways.
2. Flexibility - play it as you wish, it's really up to you. I find that the best way to win against almost any army is massed infantry (around 110+ infantry, 70% advancing, 30% fire support) supported by lots of Leman Russ and a couple of Hellhounds. But winning is not the end-all for IG. I also have lots of fun with Armored Company lists (9 Leman Russ +2 Chimera in 1850), veteran mechanized infantry, Air Cav and a bunch of other themed army lists.
3. My biggest gripe about IG is that the most competitive lists I have tend to be big, and are thus quite tiring to play. Other than that - love it!
Toofast wrote: AM is boring and I have no clue how they fit into the 40k universe of high technology, power armor and badass aliens. I table them most of the time and I play SW which aren't exactly a power gamer army. If anyone wants to see how "good" guard is, check their win rate in 7th on TOF. They're barely above last place. Last time I checked they were 2% higher than the worst army in 40k. How does anyone paint so many boring looking models that are mediocre at best on the tabletop?
Because they have some of the coolest looking models in the game if you're not just using the basic GW Cadians or Catachans.
Toofast wrote: AM is boring and I have no clue how they fit into the 40k universe of high technology, power armor and badass aliens. I table them most of the time and I play SW which aren't exactly a power gamer army. If anyone wants to see how "good" guard is, check their win rate in 7th on TOF. They're barely above last place. Last time I checked they were 2% higher than the worst army in 40k. How does anyone paint so many boring looking models that are mediocre at best on the tabletop?
I personally don't like them or think its plausible that they could win anything without massive casualties either. Then again that's the point of IG.
Tell your local players to get good.
A win rate online, like any other statistic, is not an accurate representation of every single game. Those only take into account tournament games or those reported on. For stuff like this you should always assume that for every game that says they suck, there is an equal or greater number than says they table every time. Win rate also doesn't take into account list builiding, player strategy or skill, opponent's skill, list and army selection, as well as mission, deployment and objectives. It could be that most of those games were against cheeseTau lists that outranged the IG platoon army while also remaining highly mobile with Devilfish to redeploy onto Maelstrom objectives, while Riptides and LongstrikeHeads blasted anything with evlnough range or firepower to be a threat. Or the IG player was a new player who decided to bring a platoon for troop #1, a Vet Squad for #2, a CCS with no specweapons, a few Leman Russ and an Ogryn squad.
Same way Ork and Nid players paint theirs, and the people who paint them like the look. Good looking or bad looking is a subjective viewpoint.
To those who have said Guard are the worst army in the game. Please could you design a TAC as possible pure BA or CSM list to defeat the following Guard list at 2k:
Pask punisher with mms and lascannon
Vanquisher with lascannon
Tank commander vanquisher with lascannon
Vanquisher with lascannon
Vet squad with demolitions and 3 melta guns
Chimera
PCS with autocannon
3 infantry squad (blobbed) each with plasma gun and autocannon
Priest
25 conscripts
Priest
Vendetta with 3 tl lascannons
3 wyverns
3 wyverns
2 wyverns
That's a basic guard mech/foot list attempting to be TAC. Absolutely nothing special - not gone for cheese by allying anything in, or going full wyvern. Try designing a TAC list then from BA or CSM to have a more than evens chance against it.
Piece of advice - don't underestimate wyverns, pask or fearless conscripts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not even included any large ap2 or 3 blasts to make it easier.
Nothing funny about a factual statement, if you're having issues then you might want to change your list or tactics up.
Your subjective opinion is not fact, especially when you clearly advertise the fact that you play Tau. Let's make that clear.
Whilst I would concede that Wraith Knights are reasonably well balanced given their considerable investment, Riptides are very easy to consider to at least some degree overpowered; I refuse to bog this thread down with too much detail, but even starting off with the facts that you can get an effectively-infinite-range, near infinite LOS-due-to-height S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser that is more often than not is several orders of magnitude harder to kill than a Leman Russ and a Land Raider (even if it doesn't Nova) and moves 6+2D6 a turn for 185 points , anyone with eyes and two braincells to rub together can clearly see it doesn't match up in balance when you draw comparisons. 5 points for an Ion Accelerator, come on, seriously?
Just because I play Tau, and barely have I started playing them and don't own any Riptides, doesn't mean my opinion is biased and that I cannot make an educated decision from looking at facts. I am stating from personal experience that the Riptide is not overpowered. And it is your opinion that they are just as it is the opinion of me and other players, not just people who play Tau, that I found them to not be broken. Does that mean they aren't strong? Not in the slightest, I would hope for something that I pay over 200 points for (because no one takes just the Ion Accelerator) would be a strong model.
I have been an Imperial Guard player for a number of years and when Riptides first dropped I never had issues with them, that includes the Tri Riptide list. The biggest reason the Riptide is so dominant that I have seen is people refusing to change their tactics or lists and people not putting enough terrain on the table which includes area and LOS blocking terrain. And so what it has a large blast 8 AP 2 weapon, you can get a strength 10 large blasts ap2 weapon for 15 points cheaper on a 14 armor hull or take multiple heavy tanks for cheap. Want to complain about Marker Lights? Guess what it's what makes the army unique and even then you're paying a good chunk of points in order to get them so when it comes to cost of said marker lights its pretty expensive and balances out. You And some people may feel the Riptide is to strong but in my experience and other fellow players at my store and others I have been to who feel that the Riptide is manageable.
Back to this thread the ig have a lot of answers for said MCsin the form of their tanks, heavy weapon teams with order, tying it up with conscripts that are fearless and the Vendetta. also one of the best ways to defeat said list was to focus and kill everything else but the Riptides which was doable.
Toofast wrote: AM is boring and I have no clue how they fit into the 40k universe of high technology, power armor and badass aliens. I table them most of the time and I play SW which aren't exactly a power gamer army. If anyone wants to see how "good" guard is, check their win rate in 7th on TOF. They're barely above last place. Last time I checked they were 2% higher than the worst army in 40k. How does anyone paint so many boring looking models that are mediocre at best on the tabletop?
I don't think the Cadians look boring. I find them to be nicely understated. They're as basic as you can go with the theme, and I can see why some don't like it, but it fits right up my alley. Drives home the theme of ordinary against the insanity for me.
With regard to Cadians, I'm personally fine with most of their design - it's just their heads I don't like.
I mean, I much prefer the simplistic approach to the current Space Marines - who can barely move for all the bling covering them.
What I dislike are the shape of the helmets (which make them look bobble-headed), and that their faces look like someone carved them out of potatoes. Thank goodness for head-swaps.
Actually, I feel I should also add 'cost' to my dislikes. Because £18 for 10 models, when you can easily field hundreds of the things, is just batty.
That's a basic guard mech/foot list attempting to be TAC. Absolutely nothing special - not gone for cheese by allying anything in, or going full wyvern.
So 8 wyvern instead of 9 is not full wyvern? You are generous.
That's a basic guard mech/foot list attempting to be TAC. Absolutely nothing special - not gone for cheese by allying anything in, or going full wyvern.
So 8 wyvern instead of 9 is not full wyvern? You are generous.
I was wondering if someone would pick up on that ;-p. I originally had a standard russ instead of the 2 wyverns plus a few other things in the list,when I originally wrote that sentence. Took the russ out to get rid of an ap3 large blast so it couldn't be said it was tailored for BA or CSM. Left that sentence in as tongue in cheek.
vipoid wrote: With regard to Cadians, I'm personally fine with most of their design - it's just their heads I don't like.
I mean, I much prefer the simplistic approach to the current Space Marines - who can barely move for all the bling covering them.
What I dislike are the shape of the helmets (which make them look bobble-headed), and that their faces look like someone carved them out of potatoes. Thank goodness for head-swaps.
Actually, I feel I should also add 'cost' to my dislikes. Because £18 for 10 models, when you can easily field hundreds of the things, is just batty.
Absolutely, Space Marines have gone crazy recently, "no man, my bike needs wings, I need more purity seals, I need some sort of protrusion on my helmet, let's spice up the back pack while we're at it, and I'll take a banner why not..."
I love the understated guardsman (not a big Vostroyan fan). Unfortunately I'm stuck with the slightly ridiculous Catachans back from when they were the only plastics. If they released Tallarn and Mordian (reasonably priced) plastics, I'd be unable to choose. Mujahideen guerrilla army or classy guardsman who wears his dress blues to save the galaxy from alien hordes...impossible decision.
I find that an Imperial Guard list needs a clear idea of what it wants to do in order to succeed. The Space Marine method of taking a little bit of this and a little bit of that for flexibility just doesn't work for them. You can't count a single Vanquisher to cover your AT, for example. You need at least three.
TheCustomLime wrote: I find that an Imperial Guard list needs a clear idea of what it wants to do in order to succeed. The Space Marine method of taking a little bit of this and a little bit of that for flexibility just doesn't work for them. You can't count a single Vanquisher to cover your AT, for example. You need at least three.
But of course. The whole IG is organised into regiments of only a single unit type: Regiments of Infantry, regiments of Artillery, regiments of Tanks, Regiments of Shadowswords. The IG works on having so much more than the other guy. The SM player might have a TripLas Predator and a Vindicator for AT. The Guard player has 3 squadrons of Vanquishers and a Vendetta or 6. The tau player has a squad of 3 suits for AA. The IG has 3 Vendettas and a squadron of Hydras. The Eldar player has a Wraithknight to back up his main force and draw fire. The IG player has allied DevCents by the bucketload. The Tyranid player has a Mawloc to deepstrike in and break up large hordes. The IG player has 2 Basilisks, 3 Wyverns and 3 Leman Russ and an allied SM Chapter Master with Orbital Bombardment for good measure.
In the current 'dex, armour really is the most viable choice. While the infantry hasn't gotten any worse per se, and orders have become more powerful, the amount of anti-infantry firepower out there which also tends to ignore cover (which everyone takes owing to no shortage of cover buffing shenanigans out here right now [stealth an shrouded stacking, and being so common really piss me off]) means footslogging guard just sort of die without accomplishing anything.
With tanks being cheaper, while not having the insane durability of skimmers, are actually pretty good for AV 14/13/10(11) with good firepower. Incidentally, with the change to heavy making the LRBT and Demolisher less attractive, the fact that their points stayed the same has made them even less attractive (BUY MORE MODELS FOOL! YA'll GOT LOTS OF THOSE - GeeDubs) but Exterminators, Eradicators (oh look, AV14 ignores cover large blast St6 AP4 for 120 points?) Punishers and so on are all excellent vehicles, several of which Pask can make downright stupid.
And, as footslogging infantry are objectively bad, vets in Chimeras were completely un-changed, and their doctrines got cheaper; they carefully avoided the Chimera price nerf by being 10 points cheaper and can still produce an unprecedented amount of special weapon firepower which makes marines green with envy.
I'd say Guard air-cav is also still quite good, especially if you've got some Forgeworld units available, or use a Forgeworld list (Elysian or D-99). Valkyries remain solid choices, vendettas are expensive but still good units, Vultures are godlike ground-support and I'm quite partial to the Avenger Strike Fighter.
Basically, like every codex update, the old, traditional guard are more or less invalid, and you've only got a handful of viable builds in the book and very little flavour. I've mostly stopped playing my Guard to be honest; my Death Korps are shelved (FW footslogging Guard list, just melts under any kind of optimized list, which as of late is all I've seen) and I take out my armoured Praetorian army now and then, but I just don't enjoy the codex to be perfectly frank. Perhaps I was spoiled by the Space Marine book having lots of viable, balanced, themed options in which I rarely feel constrained or punished for building the army I'd like to play with lots of allowances for theme and fluff. Hell, I have over 400 points in tactical terminators in that army, and still usually enjoy myself. Guard? Build the right list or die. Not as stark as, say, Tyranids, but it's certainly one of those books.
I think infantry with the right buffs can still work. Give them all Lascannons, orders and prescience and watch them obliterate the enemy with how much dice they are throwing. I think the only thing you have to worry about is Serpent Sp-
TheCustomLime wrote: I think infantry with the right buffs can still work. Give them all Lascannons, orders and prescience and watch them obliterate the enemy with how much dice they are throwing. I think the only thing you have to worry about is Serpent Sp-
Okay. Point taken.
The shield is just one part of it; look at every army, what have they received in spades since their last rendition? Ignores cover or super-high volume of mid-low strength firepower. Perfect for killing guard. Ahriman pumping out 6 witchfires or more, the Turkey, Serpent Shield, Dakkafexes, etc. Even the "bad" armies have plenty of ways to easily swat aside guardsmen. They're good in a vacuum, and have really high damage potential in blobs with specials and heavies with orders and blessings, but in an effort to give each army an ability to counter more powerful units, they've rendered light infantry light guard so much fodder, and not even the kind of fodder which serves a tactical purpose.
The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.
MajorStoffer wrote: The shield is just one part of it; look at every army, what have they received in spades since their last rendition? Ignores cover or super-high volume of mid-low strength firepower. Perfect for killing guard. Ahriman pumping out 6 witchfires or more, the Turkey, Serpent Shield, Dakkafexes, etc. Even the "bad" armies have plenty of ways to easily swat aside guardsmen. They're good in a vacuum, and have really high damage potential in blobs with specials and heavies with orders and blessings, but in an effort to give each army an ability to counter more powerful units, they've rendered light infantry light guard so much fodder, and not even the kind of fodder which serves a tactical purpose.
The other aspect is that other races have received considerable advancements in both firepower and defence, whereas our own firepower and defence has remained the same or even diminished.
timetowaste85 wrote: The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.
One big exception: the old heavy flamer troopers. They've got the big round drum tanks on their backs and a cool looking gun. Today's three tube heavy flamers look hilariously awful.
timetowaste85 wrote: The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.
Statistically, 100 BS3 lasgun shots nets you between 2 and 3 dead terminators. Not actually as impressive as it looks
timetowaste85 wrote: The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.
Statistically, 100 BS3 lasgun shots nets you between 2 and 3 dead terminators. Not actually as impressive as it looks
Even less so if the 'buff terminators' crowd get their wish and terminators end up with T5 or FNP.
timetowaste85 wrote: The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.
Statistically, 100 BS3 lasgun shots nets you between 2 and 3 dead terminators. Not actually as impressive as it looks
People are prone to the aesthetics that appeal to them the most. When it comes to discussing art, it is purely an opinionated matter entirely. One man's art is another man's trash, and vice versa. The art of the sculptures for the IG is purely subjective.
As to why represent the IG in the WH40K universe is simple. In any game, you have to show a baseline for statistics. What is the easiest way to do that? You show the basic human soldier. Which in the Grimdark of WH40k, is completely underwhelming comparing him to his competitors.
Only the Orcs and the Tyranids can boast the same volume of Troops as the Imperial Guard. But even they are limited in how many troops that they can deploy to the battlefield. The Orks are limited normally by being divided by bickering warbands. The Tyranids are limited in the fact due to their nature of razing entire planets clear of biomass. The Tyranids can only sustain what the Hive Fleet can support.
I make these points to highlight that WH40k not only needs the IG but Has to Have the IG. The IG puts everything else into proper perspective. Last time I checked, this game was designed by humans for humans to play, correct?
To the OP, You will find that a good many guard players are not out to win every game, they are out to have fun. To many the guard is not about being a superhuman, it calls out to the "average" joe" and reminds us that an individual can make a difference without having to be 8 feet tall and carrying a huge gun. We know it isnt the most competetive army but we simply dont care. At least thats the frame of mind ive seen in most of us guard players anecdotaly.
EVIL INC wrote: To the OP, You will find that a good many guard players are not out to win every game, they are out to have fun. To many the guard is not about being a superhuman, it calls out to the "average" joe" and reminds us that an individual can make a difference without having to be 8 feet tall and carrying a huge gun. We know it isnt the most competetive army but we simply dont care. At least thats the frame of mind ive seen in most of us guard players anecdotaly.
This got an exalt from me as its very true. I lose alot but my list is quite nasty with out being rude, I lose but I make you work for it (unless you are an Eldar player that brings a knight to the table, girrrrrrrrrr ).
If I win its an unlooked for bonus
Nothing funny about a factual statement, if you're having issues then you might want to change your list or tactics up.
Your subjective opinion is not fact, especially when you clearly advertise the fact that you play Tau. Let's make that clear.
Whilst I would concede that Wraith Knights are reasonably well balanced given their considerable investment, Riptides are very easy to consider to at least some degree overpowered; I refuse to bog this thread down with too much detail, but even starting off with the facts that you can get an effectively-infinite-range, near infinite LOS-due-to-height S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser that is more often than not is several orders of magnitude harder to kill than a Leman Russ and a Land Raider (even if it doesn't Nova) and moves 6+2D6 a turn for 185 points , anyone with eyes and two braincells to rub together can clearly see it doesn't match up in balance when you draw comparisons. 5 points for an Ion Accelerator, come on, seriously?
Just because I play Tau, and barely have I started playing them and don't own any Riptides, doesn't mean my opinion is biased and that I cannot make an educated decision from looking at facts. I am stating from personal experience that the Riptide is not overpowered. And it is your opinion that they are just as it is the opinion of me and other players, not just people who play Tau, that I found them to not be broken. Does that mean they aren't strong? Not in the slightest, I would hope for something that I pay over 200 points for (because no one takes just the Ion Accelerator) would be a strong model.
I have been an Imperial Guard player for a number of years and when Riptides first dropped I never had issues with them, that includes the Tri Riptide list. The biggest reason the Riptide is so dominant that I have seen is people refusing to change their tactics or lists and people not putting enough terrain on the table which includes area and LOS blocking terrain. And so what it has a large blast 8 AP 2 weapon, you can get a strength 10 large blasts ap2 weapon for 15 points cheaper on a 14 armor hull or take multiple heavy tanks for cheap. Want to complain about Marker Lights? Guess what it's what makes the army unique and even then you're paying a good chunk of points in order to get them so when it comes to cost of said marker lights its pretty expensive and balances out. You And some people may feel the Riptide is to strong but in my experience and other fellow players at my store and others I have been to who feel that the Riptide is manageable.
Back to this thread the ig have a lot of answers for said MCsin the form of their tanks, heavy weapon teams with order, tying it up with conscripts that are fearless and the Vendetta. also one of the best ways to defeat said list was to focus and kill everything else but the Riptides which was doable.
Besides your first paragraph stating the obvious and completely sidestepping the fact that you literally and indisputably said your opinion was fact as I had pointed out (honestly I couldn't care less), there's numerous issues with your arguing here. Oh, and in the first paragraph you also try to claim to be objective. For someone that has made numerous proposed army lists on DD with Riptides and stated openly they were going to use them, I can only respond there with raised eyebrows and muttering "eh".
As to the start to your second paragraph on your apparent non-existent issues with Riptides, I can see 2 things; you're either not entirely being clean with your use of the operative word "never" or you made particular use of Vendettas in your Elysian list, a suggestion which is strongly supported by the fact that most of your old proposed Elysian army lists have 2-3 almost without fail, which makes your point seem immensely weaker when you consider how broken they were back then and how not everyone took that one hard counter.
My issues with this post extend to your trump card arguments/dismissal. "Adapt your list." "Need more LOS blocking terrain so you don't die." "This makes the army unique." These are cheap instant win, indisputable phrases that are effectively meaningless to the point and don't need elaboration that leads to them falling apart. They're of course all valid points and barely relevant, but they don't contribute anything, so forgive me if I don't delve into them. You also sidestep my point on variation and originality in list design.
The Demolisher tank comparison was mildly amusing. Its a terribly overpriced and effectively now useless unit, has a third of the range of the IA, doesn't have its absurd LOS range, doesn't have half as much durability as the RT, is half as fast as it and barely costs less than a Riptide. You then talk about the counters we have; there are only 2 kinds of tank that are decent against the Riptide as I pointed out, only a 300-375+ point Lascannon blob has decent HWT firepower against it, (HWS are useless) tying it up with fearless conscripts is hardly a reliable solution and then we have the Vendetta. Yeah, I guess I can agree with that one.
The whole pointless bit about it being your opinion is perfectly valid, and if that's what you want to believe, fine. I didn't need to be reminded of that.
Overall I think the AM Codex is underpowered but manageable. The existence of Riptides brings it down a peg.
EVIL INC wrote: To the OP, You will find that a good many guard players are not out to win every game, they are out to have fun. To many the guard is not about being a superhuman, it calls out to the "average" joe" and reminds us that an individual can make a difference without having to be 8 feet tall and carrying a huge gun. We know it isnt the most competetive army but we simply dont care. At least thats the frame of mind ive seen in most of us guard players anecdotaly.
Not quite ork levels of this, of course, but not a shabby second, either.
I've definitely taken moral victories out of games with guard before. Yes, I lost the game, technically, but I'd like to see how well YOU would have done with this. Or, alternatively, seeing how well you can do with a fluffy, but very questionable guard build. There are lists I've played where I consider it a win if there's still anybody left on the table at the end of the game.
All I basically got from your response was "you use lots of Fliers and planned in the past to take Riptides in your Tau army meaning you are a WAAC type player and therefore your input is invalid". Try again buddy, the fact that you went so far to try and prove me wrong is amusing and I applaud your thoroughness to try and be a dominant internet mouthpiece. sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh
Also you totally took my comment about the tanks out of context, all I stated was the fact that the guard have access to plenty of armor 14 vehicles that can handle a lot of things, this includes MCs. And HWS squads are useless? If you play Imperial Guard I am surprised because last time I checked throwing a bunch of twin linked lascannons or autocannons into something is going to do damage. Maybe you're relying too much on Mathhammer but playing in a competitive environment these things worked for me whenever I face them. but don't mind me, you can keep your elitist attitude and snarky comments because I obviously don't know anything. Sorry to derail the thread I should know better than to feed the trolls.
gmaleron wrote: All I basically got from your response was "you use lots of Fliers and planned in the past to take Riptides in your Tau army meaning you are a WAAC type player and therefore your input is invalid". Try again buddy, the fact that you went so far to try and prove me wrong is amusing and I applaud your thoroughness to try and be a dominant internet mouthpiece. sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh
Also you totally took my comment about the tanks out of context, all I stated was the fact that the guard have access to plenty of armor 14 vehicles that can handle a lot of things, this includes MCs. And HWS squads are useless? If you play Imperial Guard I am surprised because last time I checked throwing a bunch of twin linked lascannons or autocannons into something is going to do damage. Maybe you're relying too much on Mathhammer but playing in a competitive environment these things worked for me whenever I face them. but don't mind me, you can keep your elitist attitude and snarky comments because I obviously don't know anything. Sorry to derail the thread I should know better than to feed the trolls.
All I basically got from your response was "you use lots of Fliers and planned in the past to take Riptides in your Tau army meaning you are a WAAC type player and therefore your input is invalid".
.....What? That's an utterly contrived load of bull and you know it.
Try again buddy, the fact that you went so far to try and prove me wrong is amusing and I applaud your thoroughness to try and be a dominant internet mouthpiece.
When you post in this thread to refute my points, you call for me to prove you wrong. As for the latter part here It implies you're just attempting to "troll" me, which is fairly ironic considering you have the guts to slander me as one at the end of this post.
Finally, because by this point I realise you've already bailed out of your crashing attempt to reason well with me in an argument so you can just insult and slander me , you took a unbelievable interpretation of the half sentence where I said not everyone takes Vendettas. There are two, black and white obvious things to take away from that; 1) A unit can be overpowered regardless of its balance in an ultra-competitive no-mercy meta, and 2) Not all tournament/high end lists could have, can and will fit in multiple Vendettas, the last time I saw Reecius' Guard army he had one Vendetta. That said, that's been driven off the rails entirely because that began as a reflection on the past.
If you want to debate something with me, you can post your points and arguments and I'll listen to and go through all of them , though I'm not going to just sit and watch as you use fallacies and manipulative tricks as I don't ignore any point in a logical post. If you have nothing else to say, don't feel like you can refute my points or if the line ends at "this is my opinion", don't post, or politely concede where you will.
I'm only going to reply if you're going to make logical and relevant points in your next post. If you are going to insult me though, I ask that you try something more original than misconstruing entirely what I'm saying. People have been called trolls for less.
a bit late on this - my response to wraithknights - lascannons, 3 squads of 3 getting ordered by CCS will put a dent on it, especially if its not moving and not in cover.
Riptides? Same. Drown then in a metric eff-ton of them
resipsa wrote: a bit late on this - my response to wraithknights - lascannons, 3 squads of 3 getting ordered by CCS will put a dent on it, especially if its not moving and not in cover.
Riptides? Same. Drown then in a metric eff-ton of them
The problem you'll have is that both Tau and Eldar have plenty of long-range, high strength weapons.
Your Lascannons will just be obliterated by Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons, Missiles, Serpent Shields, etc.
Also, why isn't the Riptide/Wraithknight moving or in cover? The former can JSJ (and has 72" weapons), and the latter has a 12" jump move (also with long-range weapons).
You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).
I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.
thechosen1 wrote: You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).
I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.
AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad
thechosen1 wrote: You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).
I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.
AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad
thechosen1 wrote: You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).
I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.
AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad
Because they're not Space Marines with Bolters
Fair point. Maybe its because I've been playing for a while but I've drifted from space marines quite a bit.
Even if they have long range weapons it doesn't mean that you wont get the first turn to shoot and you can take multiple heavy weapon teams and tanks kitted out to deal with MC's rather reliably. To many people cry "OP" and think they are invincible where if you prepare for them in a balanced list you should be fine.
bibotot wrote: I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:
- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.
Don't look now, but I think people think you meant it.
thechosen1 wrote: You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).
I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.
AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad
They are rather slow and need cover to survive longer , and it so happens that in 7th being fast is very important and cover gets ignored by a lot of people. And other good armies have tanks in the 100-150pts range too, offten as transports.
I would say that some folks play IG for fluff reasons. Some players play IG for aesthetics. I play IG for the numbers reason. Sure maybe the units are not the best, but typically, you can have 3 to 5 times as many for the same choice on a force org chart.
IG was my first 40k army and I always loved playing them! I have never been a very competitive player and Ive definitely lost more games then Ive won, but I love setting down my gun line with a few counter attack units for my Guard army and blasting huge chunks out of my opponents army.
All of the reasons you listed as negatives for the IG are true, but they are cheap and can have access to a wide variety of heavy weapons placed on so many different platforms (from infantry to tanks to fortifications) that an IG player can have a very effective all comers list.
thechosen1 wrote: You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).
I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.
AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad
Because you win the game by being fast and durable, which IG is not.
I know. The army is NOT weak. They are just fething stupid, completely contradicts the sci-fi theme.
I don't get this statement at all? as stated, how?
In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.
I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.
I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.
It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.
The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.
Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.
Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.
Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)
The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.
Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.
the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.
In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.
I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.
In the far future, genetically enhanced superbeings are hitting people with swords instead of high caliber weaponry.
If you're going to apply any sort of logic to 40k, at least be consistent about it. Which means pretty much nothing makes sense and you should therefore think nothing fits and is the worse thing ever.
If you wanted 40k to be accurate it'd be you rolling on a technological innovation chart to see if your society could develop the capacity to equip their unmanned space probes with weapons superior to your opponents unmanned space probes. Then you'd launch the probe unfathomable distances to fight in wars that probably ended twenty thousand years ago by the time of the engagement due to time dilation.
In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.
I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.
In the far future, genetically enhanced superbeings are hitting people with swords instead of high caliber weaponry.
If you're going to apply any sort of logic to 40k, at least be consistent about it. Which means pretty much nothing makes sense and you should therefore think nothing fits and is the worse thing ever.
Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.
Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.
In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.
I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.
In the far future, genetically enhanced superbeings are hitting people with swords instead of high caliber weaponry.
If you're going to apply any sort of logic to 40k, at least be consistent about it. Which means pretty much nothing makes sense and you should therefore think nothing fits and is the worse thing ever.
Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.
Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.
If that's what you're going off of, then hordes of poorly equipped, expendable serfs (Guardsmen) fit in rather well.
bibotot wrote: Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.
So are things like trench warfare with plasma guns.
Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.
No, they have absolutely nothing to do with either of those IPs. If anyone in 40k is a Starship Troopers ripoff it's the space marines and Tau crisis suits (in fact, give the Tau nuclear missiles on their crisis suits and you've got a perfect Starship Troopers clone). And unless there's some obscure EU thing that matches 40k the only thing in common between Star Wars and the IG is that both of them have human soldiers with guns (something that 95% of scifi armies have).
Spinner wrote:I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.
It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.
Grey Templar wrote:The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.
Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.
Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.
Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)
The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.
Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.
the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.
All things considered, i'd rather be shot with the lasgun, thank you very much.
A ww1 (or 2) soldier standing right next to me and pulling the trigger is probably going to kill me. Meanwhile a lasgun has a 50% chance to not even seriously injure me, and if i'm wearing a tanktop or muscle-shirt of some description then i've got a 33% chance of avoiding even that. To say nothing of the fact that the guardsman has a 50% chance to miss me after putting the rifle to my head.
Spinner wrote:I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.
It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.
Grey Templar wrote:The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.
Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.
Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.
Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)
The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.
Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.
the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.
All things considered, i'd rather be shot with the lasgun, thank you very much.
A ww1 (or 2) soldier standing right next to me and pulling the trigger is probably going to kill me. Meanwhile a lasgun has a 50% chance to not even seriously injure me, and if i'm wearing a tanktop or muscle-shirt of some description then i've got a 33% chance of avoiding even that. To say nothing of the fact that the guardsman has a 50% chance to miss me after putting the rifle to my head.
I suppose you also think that a tank shell fired into your chest only has a 83% chance of killing you. The game is an abstraction.
Spinner wrote:I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.
It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.
Grey Templar wrote:The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.
Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.
Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.
Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)
The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.
Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.
the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.
All things considered, i'd rather be shot with the lasgun, thank you very much.
A ww1 (or 2) soldier standing right next to me and pulling the trigger is probably going to kill me. Meanwhile a lasgun has a 50% chance to not even seriously injure me, and if i'm wearing a tanktop or muscle-shirt of some description then i've got a 33% chance of avoiding even that. To say nothing of the fact that the guardsman has a 50% chance to miss me after putting the rifle to my head.
Rules =/= fluff. The 50% chance to hit represents shooting a target thats trying not to be shot and from some degree of distance and the general training he's received. The commissar's summary execution represents a muzzle to the back of the head.
Fluff is that a hole is bored into your body that cooks the surrounding tissue. You now have third degree burns in a very large around around the initial wound, assuming the explosive force of the water in your flesh getting flash boiled at the point of impact didn't kill you outright. A las wound is only better for you than a bullet in the case of a graze because it will cauterize the wound instead of you bleeding. But a direct hit is going to be just as bad if not worse.
And to add in relation to your tank top joke,, Lasguns would be nore than capable of blasting clean through your clothes, stop being stupid. The things that represent 6+ saves are Ork armour (could be a tough leather jacket the Orks simply believe makes them tougher, or a bare metal plate that will reflect, disperse or otherwise lessen the energy hitting flesh) or Tyranid chitin (bio-engineered to be reflective and inpact resistant enough that it can resist lasbolts). The 5+ saves represent IG and basic Eldar armour, surprisingly high-tech bidy armour that is capable of stopping the large calibre rounds the Orks chuck down range. 4+ save is full body carapces and Fire Warrior and Aspect Warrior armour, as well as the Orks wearing heavy metal plates and largish Tyranids like Tyranid Warriors (2 metres tall and deadly). 3+ save is the stuff like PA that is pretty much impervious to all modern day firepower (Autocannon and Assault Cannons, equivilent to modern tank cannons and miniguns, ars AP 4), as well as the Tau battlesuitd and the heavier stuff like Carnifexes and Wraithlords. 2+ armour is the just rediculously hard stuff like Terminator Armour, Mega Armour, Wraithknights, Riptides, Tyrannofexes, ,Broadsides.
If you take it in a vacuum, the AP value of the Lasgun is bad. But when you consider what 40k actually is, which is a universe opposite to ours where armour technology far outstrips most firepower, and then consider what you are actually firing at, you'll realise that you're asking a lot. Look at the Bolter, Shurikan or even the Pulse Rifle. A .75 explosive armour penetrating round, a tiny ninja star shot as a bullet, and a weaker version of plasma. All of them can just about go through IG flak armour but you also have occurences where bolters rip massive holes from building walls, shurikens go clean through solid armour and pulse rilfes can almost compete with Snipers for range. Its like asking the AK-47 (Lasgun) wielding militia to stand up and be measured against Special Forces with the latest and greatest assault rifles, grenade launchers, bulletproof bodygloves and high quality training.
Deadshot wrote: The 5+ saves represent IG and basic Eldar armour, surprisingly high-tech bidy armour that is capable of stopping the large calibre rounds the Orks chuck down range.
Unless it's Catachan IG, in which case a 5+ save represents some torn-up scraps of a t-shirt at most. But the conclusion here isn't that lasguns are stopped by t-shirts, it's that the rules are an abstraction and give an armor save to things that shouldn't have one fluff-wise because of balance reasons.
My conclusion is that i'd rather be shot by a tank in the far future - if things get that bad, i'll take that 17% chance. I thought the game was about forging the narrative?
bibotot wrote: Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.
So are things like trench warfare with plasma guns.
Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.
No, they have absolutely nothing to do with either of those IPs. If anyone in 40k is a Starship Troopers ripoff it's the space marines and Tau crisis suits (in fact, give the Tau nuclear missiles on their crisis suits and you've got a perfect Starship Troopers clone). And unless there's some obscure EU thing that matches 40k the only thing in common between Star Wars and the IG is that both of them have human soldiers with guns (something that 95% of scifi armies have).
If they have the technology to make plasma gun, would they also have what it takes to perform Blitzkrieg?
Discipline and combat doctrines of AM are similar to that in Starship Troopers. Both of the have very harsh, warlike organization which sees the individual as next to nothing. They both use human wave tactics. Arguably, the Tyranids are 40k version of Arachnids.
Sentinels are 40k version of ATST.
Also, the Imperial Guards resemble the Nazis, but have none of their good points. They even have Commissars. fething COMMUNIST COMMISSARS! Tau are communists.
vipoid wrote: I can't believe I'm having to ask this, but which of the Nazi's good points are IG lacking?
Efficiency, competence, zealotry. Nazis don't have commissars, because they are a bunch of fanatics. The Nazis killed five times as many Russians in the Eastern Front. On the tabletop, Guardsmen will break unless you put a commissar in there, and their lasgun can't kill gak and you will always have less than 1:1 kill-ratio, except against Nids horde.
I am not trying to praise the Nazis here, but their military was one of the best in the world. It took the effort of multiple countries to bring them down. If the numbers were equal, the Germans would have the advantage.
bibotot wrote: Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.
So are things like trench warfare with plasma guns.
Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.
No, they have absolutely nothing to do with either of those IPs. If anyone in 40k is a Starship Troopers ripoff it's the space marines and Tau crisis suits (in fact, give the Tau nuclear missiles on their crisis suits and you've got a perfect Starship Troopers clone). And unless there's some obscure EU thing that matches 40k the only thing in common between Star Wars and the IG is that both of them have human soldiers with guns (something that 95% of scifi armies have).
If they have the technology to make plasma gun, would they also have what it takes to perform Blitzkrieg?
Discipline and combat doctrines of AM are similar to that in Starship Troopers. Both of the have very harsh, warlike organization which sees the individual as next to nothing. They both use human wave tactics. Arguably, the Tyranids are 40k version of Arachnids.
Sentinels are 40k version of ATST.
Also, the Imperial Guards resemble the Nazis, but have none of their good points. They even have Commissars. fething COMMUNIST COMMISSARS! Tau are communists.
IG takes the aesthetics from WW:I. Have the officers and the ruthless doctrine from the Russian army of WW:II, not Starship Troopers.
IIRC the Tyranids are a grim dark spinoff of the Alien franchise, so much in fact that I believe GW was sued for it.
vipoid wrote: I can't believe I'm having to ask this, but which of the Nazi's good points are IG lacking?
Efficiency, competence, zealotry. Nazis don't have commissars, because they are a bunch of fanatics.
One might make the case that the SS were, but (at least relative to the time), the average German soldier was hardly a fanatic, but simply well disciplined. The Feldgendarmerie was eventually tasked with things like shooting retreating troops when things started going bad post '43.
The Nazis killed five times as many Russians in the Eastern Front.
Closer to 1.5-2x, not 5x. Also by the end of the war the Red Army was far more competent than they usually get credit for.
On the tabletop, Guardsmen will break unless you put a commissar in there, and their lasgun can't kill gak and you will always have less than 1:1 kill-ratio, except against Nids horde.
That's because most tabletop games aren't playing against 90% of the IG's most common enemies, which are rebels, unassimilated humans, pirates, small random Xenos empires that are crushed all the time, etc. (Tyranids and Orks aside).
Most of the IG's games are played against foes they often would rarely face, and at ranges where their greatest assets aren't able to be utilized. It wouldn't be a particularly fun game if your IG force simply routed coordinates to an artillery battery and simply carpet bombarded the table with dozens of ordnance blasts. Within the 40k universe, foes like Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines, or Eldar, or Necrons would be very rare indeed for most IG troops, often rare to the point of being nearly mythical. When you're comparing basic guardsmen to genetically engineered and psycho-indoctrinated super soldiers, or ancient "super-people" aliens with lifetimes measured in centuries, or the daemonic forces of unreality, even relatively elite human soldiers often seem somewhat underwhelming.
Casualty rates also are somewhat odd in 40k. Playing largely mechanized armies when running a codex list, its not uncommon at all that I'll end a game having taken roughly equal (or fewer) casualties with even relatively elite opponents. I played against a Daemon army today, tabled it with my IG, and lost three relatively cheap IFV's and fewer than twenty-five Guardsmen in a 1500pt game while destroying over four dozen Daemon infantry, a Daemon Prince, some Daemonic Cavalry, and two Soul Grinders. My last game against Dark Eldar I destroyed about 40 Dark Eldar, four DE vehicles, and an allied Knight, for the loss of fourteen guarsmen and a Chimera. Even my last loss, against Space Marines, I still killed roughly three dozen marines and two tanks (and a pod) for the loss of five tanks and three dozen guardsmen.
Guardsmen morale is pretty equal to their equivalents in other armies, having identical Ld to Fire Warriors, with a sergeant they're equal to Eldar Guardians, similar to Ork mobs, etc.
The one beef I have is that the truly elite stuff like Scions/Stormtroopers still have basic Ld and WS, they really should have some better stats and a gun that isn't S3 and 18" rapid fire, but GW seems to think AP3 is a magical-fix-all...but I digress, that's another thread.
Also, not all IG forces are straight IG codex style forces either. You have subfactions like the Death Korps which have very stiff morale, but just aren't covered by the basic Codex.
bibotot wrote: If they have the technology to make plasma gun, would they also have what it takes to perform Blitzkrieg?
If they have the technology to make a plasma gun then why do space marines run screaming at the enemy and kill them with swords? IG are WWI in space for the same theme reasons that melee weapons are still relevant.
Discipline and combat doctrines of AM are similar to that in Starship Troopers. Both of the have very harsh, warlike organization which sees the individual as next to nothing. They both use human wave tactics. Arguably, the Tyranids are 40k version of Arachnids.
Err, no. Go read the book and ignore the movie, which was a parody of the book (especially Heinlein's political argument). The humans are elite super-soldiers in power armor with jetpacks and tactical nukes. They drop pod in from orbit, kill everything, and move on to the next target. In fact, you might even suggest that GW's space marines and Tau crisis suits were "inspired" by Starship Troopers.
(And no, the movie isn't relevant. It didn't exist at all until long after GW created the IG.)
Sentinels are 40k version of ATST.
Or any other bipedal light scout walker. They're only superficially similar to the AT-ST. And if a single minor unit is your best example of how the IG is a Star Wars clone then I'll take it as a concession of defeat.
Im convinced at this point Bibotot is just trolling but I do want to touch on a few of his "thoughts":
-Yes trench warfare and other older forms of warfare are still in use and why shouldn't they be? Just because it was developed at an earlier time does not make it obsolete, in fact to this day modern militaries make uses of trenches, foxholes and fortifications to the best of their ability.
-The Lasgun is a very powerful weapon, more powerful then any basic small arms we have today, however it is reflected as being weak in the rules and the fluff NOT because it is weak but because the opponents the IG are facing are that strong, you are thinking of it backwards.
-Of course there are going to be similarities and things based off other Sci-Fi games and actual history, it is one of the appeals of being an IG player to theme an army based off WWII Russians, Germans ect. Also you can look at any Sci-Fi game and see similarities to other games or universes.
-In regards to your "Nazis were better comment" you are only half correct. Over 90% of the German Wermacht was not part of the Nazi party, the SS units however were. I am a history major so this is an accurate statement, it is one of the reasons Rommel despised Hiter. And that is also reflected in the game rules, you can construct an army of Veterans (BS4 with access to x3 Special Weapons) to represent a more elite unit in the 41st Millenium.
Just one thing: As a history major, you should know that name dropping (or in this case, qualification-we-don't-have-any-way-of-verifying- dropping) is not how you prove something. You have to use accurate numbers and sources and not say "This is true because I say so."
Just one thing: As a history major, you should know that name dropping (or in this case, qualification-we-don't-have-any-way-of-verifying- dropping) is not how you prove something. You have to use accurate numbers and sources and not say "This is true because I say so."
Not proving anything? Was just stating a fact that ive learned in my course? Not writing a paper, this is an online forum so I don't think the "proper" way of doing this is really necessary here.
You have to play EPIC to see guard really shine. Massed artillery barrages from artillery parks at distance, superheavy transports, combined arms options, tank companies. Even the basic infantry squad with its autocannon is a decne tformation for the cost, and their company support is impressive, most impressive. Thats without adding in a few titans.
Bibotot doesn't know what he's talking about as regards Starship Troopers. I bet he hasn't read the book, and I'd even wager he didn't know it was a book anyway.
He dislikes Guard aesthetics, therefore our appreciation of them is wrong and they're not allowed to contribute to the Grim Dark Gothic-ness. How silly of us.
To be fair, many guard players don't like lots of Imperial Guard aesthetics
The Catachan's to me look absurd, the basic Cadians all look like they're wearing "seizure-safety" helmets with gigantic heads and facial expressions that convey intense and painful constipation, and the less said about Rough Riders the better.
But between the Steel Legion, Valhallans, DKoK, Elysians, Vostroyans, etc, there's a lot of very cool stuff.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, many guard players don't like lots of Imperial Guard aesthetics
The Catachan's to me look absurd, the basic Cadians all look like they're wearing "seizure-safety" helmets with gigantic heads and facial expressions that convey intense and painful constipation, and the less said about Rough Riders the better.
Agreed. Cadians look like they've wrapped mattresses around their heads, and suffer the same problem as Catachans - in that their heads look like someone carved vaguely-human features into some deformed potatoes.
Hellguns have always been superior at armor penetration than a lasgun, but no more effective at then killing the thing inside that armor. That's just an oddity of hellguns. Not sure why.
The problem is that the Bolter is more effective against a greater array of foes and at longer ranges, while the Hellgun/HotShot Lasgun is also stuck on a far less capable unit
Incidentally, I just did the math and Guardsmen with lasguns outshoot Shoota Boyz (which seem to be the standard for a "good troop" that the OP uses) by a significant margin.
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Vaktathi wrote: The problem is that the Bolter is more effective against a greater array of foes and at longer ranges, while the Hellgun/HotShot Lasgun is also stuck on a far less capable unit
Sure, but the point is that I am pretty sure that the hellgun's profile was determined so as to give stormtroopers and marines an equivalent chance to kill each other, shot for shot.
Vaktathi wrote: That's exactly what I did for my Codex-based IG army, they've all got Pig Iron Kolony Militia heads, and they look very good after that.
I'm pretty sure the Catachans' look is inspired by the movie Predator and the Vietnam era US military. I recall the original Tyranid codex (2d edition) had fluff about a Lictor hunting Catachans which was a pretty obvious Predator pastiche. I always kind of liked Catachans as a result - Nids vs. IG is about as iconic as it gets (and I'm guessing would also be one of the more common matchups in the 41st millennium, as compared to IG vs. SM/CSM or Eldar/DEldar/Tau).
Vaktathi wrote: The problem is that the Bolter is more effective against a greater array of foes and at longer ranges, while the Hellgun/HotShot Lasgun is also stuck on a far less capable unit
It's a product of the general MEQ environment. In 2nd edition, hotshot lasguns were basically S4 lasguns. With the AP armor system, S4 is only a small improvement compared to AP 3. The MEQ saturation means every army must get some AP 3 to be competitive.
You mean GWthinks they need AP3 to be competitive?
Because, frankly, AP3 is something I've never found very useful - especially considering how much it costs.
In virtually every case, it's better to either pay a little extra and get AP2 (which then lets you hurt terminators and 2+ save MCs, as well as giving you the ability to explode vehicles), or else just spam some cheaper firepower. Marines can easily be killed by weight of fire.
I want to like IG, but they are trying to do two things at once which only ends up sapping any interest I have for the faction.
That is, IG is often described as the weak guys, the poor normal humans like you and me, doing their best to survive in a galaxy filled with fiendishly lethal aliens and daemonic demigods throwing around tanks like tissue paper. They are trying to be charming in that way and very human, gaining sympathy and empathy. They are just normal people in a world of myths. Their chance of survival is very, very low, almost any non-human enemy they will face is going to roflstomp them without breaking stride, and yet they fight on with honest human courage. This is all well and good, something that only they have and that makes them unique and interesting,
But what is so incredibly jarring is that they also are trying to bludgeon their way onto the OP scene - I simply can't buy that the common guardsman is a courageous little soldier in a world of devilish danger and deserves sympathy when I see some IG fan happily ranting about how guardsmen carve apart Ork Nobz in melee, gun down ten Space Marines wíth a tank shot, Harker kills a Ravener in melee by crushing its throat with his biceps, and so on. It's just nothing short of absurd and makes the faction impossible for me to like. They need to decide what they want to be. Until then they will continue to be rather dull.
Well, the problem there is, one is fluff and one is crunch, Harker is a unique individual character and the players crowing that they cut Ork Nobz apart neglects to mention that this was the first time in 100 games that the Nobz didn't sweep his entire line. Sometimes, the Dice Gods truly smile upon you.
The other thing to remember is, while the individual Guardsman isn't very good (fluff or crunch)... heavy artillery doesn't give much of a feth how expensive your power armor suit is. A 200mm shell still pastes you across the country-side, and the IG has a *lot* of 200mm shell-throwing machines.
Ashiraya wrote: I want to like IG, but they are trying to do two things at once which only ends up sapping any interest I have for the faction.
That is, IG is often described as the weak guys, the poor normal humans like you and me, doing their best to survive in a galaxy filled with fiendishly lethal aliens and daemonic demigods throwing around tanks like tissue paper. They are trying to be charming in that way and very human, gaining sympathy and empathy. They are just normal people in a world of myths. Their chance of survival is very, very low, almost any non-human enemy they will face is going to roflstomp them without breaking stride, and yet they fight on with honest human courage. This is all well and good, something that only they have and that makes them unique and interesting,
But what is so incredibly jarring is that they also are trying to bludgeon their way onto the OP scene - I simply can't buy that the common guardsman is a courageous little soldier in a world of devilish danger and deserves sympathy when I see some IG fan happily ranting about how guardsmen carve apart Ork Nobz in melee, gun down ten Space Marines wíth a tank shot, Harker kills a Ravener in melee by crushing its throat with his biceps, and so on. It's just nothing short of absurd and makes the faction impossible for me to like. They need to decide what they want to be. Until then they will continue to be rather dull.
Honestly though, other than the silly Harker one, they seem quite reasonable. Just because IG are generally weak, doesn't mean there's no room for heroic accomplishments.
Hell, I've won (or at least held) many combats with guardsmen simply through attrition. It's not unreasonable for nobz to be pulled down by a mass of guardsmen.
With regard to killing 10 SMs, is that unreasonable? I thought IG were supposed to have powerful, if inaccurate, artillery. If the SMs were clustered for whatever reason, then a well-aimed shot should do a lot of damage to them.
That is not the point. The point is that I can't feel sympathy for their supposed human fragility when they can just point a gazillion I.W.I.N. artillery batteries at everything that so much as breathes at them. Or call in their stormtroopers (we are super-elite enough to match other races AND we are fragile humans at the same time! LOVE US!), and so on.
I won't buy that Guardsmen are somehow courageous for standing and fighting when a shot with a common low-dog IG meltagun will solve any huge-alien-problems without headaches.
In the game itself, four or five guardsmen will reliably beat a Marine in melee. Err, lol? Modern day martial arts masters can easily beat dozens of trained soldiers in close combat, and when you add huge size and super-armour, it would be like fighting a charging rhino with your fists.
Massive battle tanks and huge ordnance batteries that turn battlefields into cratered charnel fields where even the most powerful foes are left dead and mutilated are pretty par for the course for IG fluff.
The poor bloody infantry die to hold off the scary things long enough for those tanks and artillery to get into position
Ashiraya wrote: In the game itself, four or five guardsmen will reliably beat a Marine in melee. Err, lol? Modern day martial arts masters can easily beat dozens of trained soldiers in close combat
probably not, especially if any of them are packing knives and spades. A couple of trained soldiers? Maybe (though many soldiers today would also be considered quite competent martial artists), but three or four, much less dozens? Haha nope. Unlike movies (where fight scenes with incredible martial artists take many weeks of practice and long hours of choreographed filming), opponents don't just wade in one by one as they're whacked in turn and just try and throw a punch, usually they'll come in together and do things like grab arms, swing blades, trip legs, grab hair/heads, grapple, etc. A human (even a Space Marine) only has so many limbs and eyes, can only do so many things at once, while the elite guy is throwing a kick and taking one guy out, two others are grappling with his head from behind while another is going for his legs.
Contrary to popular opinion, numbers and sheer mass will generally defeat skill, there's a reason most martial arts events (boxing, wrestling, judo, taikwando, etc) also have weight classes and don't try to do silly things like pit one highly skilled guy against half a dozen lower ranked guys.
Ashiraya wrote: But what is so incredibly jarring is that they also are trying to bludgeon their way onto the OP scene - I simply can't buy that the common guardsman is a courageous little soldier in a world of devilish danger and deserves sympathy when I see some IG fan happily ranting about how guardsmen carve apart Ork Nobz in melee, gun down ten Space Marines wíth a tank shot, Harker kills a Ravener in melee by crushing its throat with his biceps, and so on. It's just nothing short of absurd and makes the faction impossible for me to like. They need to decide what they want to be. Until then they will continue to be rather dull.
But does anyone really say things like "guardsmen can carve apart nobz in melee"? It's a common and reasonable claim in a tactics discussion since IG blob squads are great in melee (even the worst conscripts can win if there's a hundred of them throwing dice at you), but I don't see this happening in fluff discussions. I think pretty much everyone agrees that guardsmen in melee against elite melee units are simply dead fluff-wise, even if the tabletop game always gives you at least a 1/6 chance of success on every roll.
And you have to separate out the Catachans from the other IG. Catachans are a deliberate parody army, and most of their fluff is meant to be so stupidly powerful that nobody takes them seriously. But the fact that a Catachan hero slaughters everything with his bare hands doesn't mean that anyone thinks a normal non-parody guardsman could do the same.
Psienesis wrote: The other thing to remember is, while the individual Guardsman isn't very good (fluff or crunch)... heavy artillery doesn't give much of a feth how expensive your power armor suit is. A 200mm shell still pastes you across the country-side, and the IG has a *lot* of 200mm shell-throwing machines.
This. The IG are defined as an army full of meatshields backed up by awesome tanks. The meatshields give you the "common man against a galaxy full of horrors" stories, the tanks give them the chance to be a relevant army instead of just getting slaughtered in the background until the space marines arrive.
Before you post such bs.. Read the core rulebook.
Close Combat in 40 k is not only described as a fistfight. A real military close quarter Combat is not only done with the hands.
It involves shooting from pistols from a very near distance, knife attacks etc.
Is also Stands exactly like this in the core rulebook.
Five guardsmen against a Marine...maybe they attack him with autopistols, stab knives in weak armour points, shoot lassen through visor from small distance etc.
And just for your Knowledge.
I have trained with British SAS Troopers, brillstein Security guards and so on.
I Never Never ever faced someone who was able to Beat 5 attackers at once. You get Beat down through sheer volume.
N8
Ashiraya wrote: The point is that I can't feel sympathy for their supposed human fragility when they can just point a gazillion I.W.I.N. artillery batteries at everything that so much as breathes at them.
1) That's kind of the point of the story. Guardsmen are mere humans, and their only hope for survival is that they have some tanks/artillery/whatever available to make up for their nonexistent hope of winning with their own weapons.
2) Artillery isn't an "I win" weapon in the fluff. Fluff-wise it takes time to aim at a target (time that you won't have if a space marine drop pod lands next to you), is often unavailable because the idiots running the Imperium's logistics delivered a bunch of extra food and power swords instead of artillery shells, etc. The only reason IG artillery seems like an auto-win fluff-wise is that GW's authors have trouble understanding any kind of tactics beyond "run screaming at the enemy with a chainsaw sword" and constantly put space marines and similar elites into wars of attrition for entire planets.
Or call in their stormtroopers (we are super-elite enough to match other races AND we are fragile humans at the same time! LOVE US!), and so on.
Please pretend that the awful abomination of a storm trooper codex was never published. Real IG storm troopers are the best human soldiers armed with very nice guns, but not a match for a space marine 1v1.
In the game itself, four or five guardsmen will reliably beat a Marine in melee. Err, lol? Modern day martial arts masters can easily beat dozens of trained soldiers in close combat, and when you add huge size and super-armour, it would be like fighting a charging rhino with your fists.
Game mechanics =/= fluff. Everyone knows that the chance of punching a space marine to death instead of just breaking your fists hitting a solid wall of armor is nothing more than an abstraction for gameplay reasons. Guardsmen can kill space marines in melee because GW decided that (almost) every roll has at least a 1/6 chance of success and at least a 1/6 chance of failure. Outside of a heavily abstracted tabletop game that is limited by a random number generator that can only work in 1/6 increments this would not be true. Just like we all know that a common guardsman doesn't have a 1/6 chance of surviving a direct hit from a titan's main gun.
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winterwind85 wrote: I Never Never ever faced someone who was able to Beat 5 attackers at once. You get Beat down through sheer volume.
That's because you've never faced anyone wearing power armor. Fluff-wise you could empty your entire load of pistol ammo into a space marine and all you'd do is maybe scratch the paint a bit, and you could punch them until all the bones in your arms are broken and never even do that much.
winterwind85 wrote: Before you post such bs.. Read the core rulebook.
Close Combat in 40 k is not only described as a fistfight. A real military close quarter Combat is not only done with the hands.
And I never asserted otherwise.
winterwind85 wrote: It involves shooting from pistols from a very near distance, knife attacks etc.
Is also Stands exactly like this in the core rulebook.
Five guardsmen against a Marine...maybe they attack him with autopistols, stab knives in weak armour points, shoot lassen through visor from small distance etc.
They shoot him with autopistols (which promptly bounce off his armour plating or maybe, maybe hit a weak spot where they maybe draw a little blood but otherwise won't really do much at all), stab him (see previous), and if they shoot him in the eye they must get the right angle to actually pierce visor, eye and brain and actually kill him. If they only shoot his eye out it won't even slow him down as long as he has autosenses.
And just for your Knowledge.
I have trained with British SAS Troopers, brillstein Security guards and so on.
I Never Never ever faced someone who was able to Beat 5 attackers at once. You get Beat down through sheer volume.
N8
Please, tell me more of your combat experience in the 41st Millennium. I am thrilled of how you beat alien monsters the size of flatbed trucks, or more relevantly perhaps people in power armour, in melee. Oh wait.
Peregrine's posts
Eh, fair enough. I still feel they are trying to fill two roles at once by being underdog and not underdog simultaneously.
winterwind85 wrote: And just for your Knowledge.
I have trained with British SAS Troopers, brillstein Security guards and so on.
I Never Never ever faced someone who was able to Beat 5 attackers at once. You get Beat down through sheer volume.
N8
Please, tell me more of your combat experience in the 41st Millennium. I am thrilled of how you beat alien monsters the size of flatbed trucks, or more relevantly perhaps people in power armour, in melee. Oh wait.
Says the guy who prompted the above comment with sillyness about current real life martial artists simultaneously engaging dozens of foes...
If you're gonna toss a silly retort like that back at someone who may have actual close combat training, try not to have started that line of conversation with a ridiculous statement in the first place.
If marines functioned like the fluff you would never lose when playing them. Conversely, Imperial Guard would always lose except for their characters. Abstraction for the sake of game balance.
Ok,ok i got it... Nerdrage:-) sorry.. Thought you were serious.
Really.. Them the whole Concept of closeups Combat in 40 k is.. Obsolete.. How many years combat experience does the normal Chaos Marine ?
8000?10000?
So.. A Single Chaos Marine should be able to rape whole,squads of smurfs?
winterwind85 wrote: Before you post such bs.. Read the core rulebook.
Close Combat in 40 k is not only described as a fistfight. A real military close quarter Combat is not only done with the hands.
It involves shooting from pistols from a very near distance, knife attacks etc.
Is also Stands exactly like this in the core rulebook.
Five guardsmen against a Marine...maybe they attack him with autopistols, stab knives in weak armour points, shoot lassen through visor from small distance etc.
And just for your Knowledge.
I have trained with British SAS Troopers, brillstein Security guards and so on.
I Never Never ever faced someone who was able to Beat 5 attackers at once. You get Beat down through sheer volume.
N8
Did you ever fight an armored ape swinging a chainsaw?
But yes, close combat means short range shooting, grenades, everything.
winterwind85 wrote: And just for your Knowledge.
I have trained with British SAS Troopers, brillstein Security guards and so on.
I Never Never ever faced someone who was able to Beat 5 attackers at once. You get Beat down through sheer volume.
N8
Please, tell me more of your combat experience in the 41st Millennium. I am thrilled of how you beat alien monsters the size of flatbed trucks, or more relevantly perhaps people in power armour, in melee. Oh wait.
Says the guy who prompted the above comment with sillyness about current real life martial artists simultaneously engaging dozens of foes...
If you're gonna toss a silly retort like that back at someone who may have actual close combat training, try not to have started that line of conversation with a ridiculous statement in the first place.
Perhaps it was hyperbole, but fact remains that numbers really isn't as great an advantage as many think. Not even near. You get in the way of each other, and if you are going to swing and shoot you may hit your friends. This is especially true in the case of Eldar, but Marines are not only tough, they are also lightning-fast.
I do not consider my original statement ridiculous, though. Perhaps a tad vague - 'trained soldier' and 'martial arts master' is not very specific - but it's definitely within the realm of possibility.
Claiming some kind of authority in debates of battling sci-fi monsters because you have fought humans in real life (in a condescending manner to boot) is not something I am impressed with.
Ashiraya wrote: Modern day martial arts masters can easily beat dozens of trained soldiers in close combat.
That's so unbelievably wrong.
Actually, yes. Scratch the 'easily' part, I admit that is wrong.
But someone who focuses on close combat (in addition to being exceptional enough to be a master and so on) is far above generalist soldiers, and as stated numbers is not that great of an advantage against someone who knows how to counter it.
Ashiraya wrote: Eh, fair enough. I still feel they are trying to fill two roles at once by being underdog and not underdog simultaneously.
But you have to fill those roles simultaneously. Look at it this way: every army needs something cool to make you say "wow, I want that". If an army is bad at everything and gets slaughtered every time until the real heroes of the story arrive very few people are going to have any interest in them (just ask the poor SoB). Tanks fill that role for the IG, they're the one thing that gives them a chance of winning and maybe even inspires a little envy from the other factions.
Peregrine wrote: But does anyone really say things like "guardsmen can carve apart nobz in melee"? It's a common and reasonable claim in a tactics discussion since IG blob squads are great in melee (even the worst conscripts can win if there's a hundred of them throwing dice at you), but I don't see this happening in fluff discussions.
You've obviously missed the 10,000 discussions with Melissia and Lynata where they've asserted that Guardsmen sergeants and Commissars are a match for Astartes, along with the all the attempted justifications for Cain holding his own against two Khorne Beserkers in melee and Gaunt nd Eisenhorn bisecting Marines in combat.
It does't usually take the form of Guardsmen spank so much as Space Marine penis-envy. A lot of IG fans and SoB fans have a chip on their shoulder about Space Marines and take delight in low-balling them.
This. The IG are defined as an army full of meatshields backed up by awesome tanks. The meatshields give you the "common man against a galaxy full of horrors" stories, the tanks give them the chance to be a relevant army instead of just getting slaughtered in the background until the space marines arrive.
But they don't, is the thing.
Gaunt's Ghosts is the most popular and best-selling Imperial Guard series in the Black Library, and it's chalk-full of nonsense like the Ghosts destroying armies many times their number and holding their own against forces that outnumber, outgun and out-tech them. It's also filled with plenty of plot-armor for individual characters, with many Guardsmen clearing entire rooms of enemies by themselves or dying in glorious last-stands but not before killing many-times their own number first.
Case in point, Ghost-Maker has a fantastically lulz scene in it where a lone Guardsmen kills dozens of Traitor-Guard by himself in a fire-fight by back-flipping and somersaulting around duel-wielding pistols.
To be fair, all of Abnett's writing is like that, Gaunts Ghosts or no. Brothers of the Snake was even worse, with absurdities like a single tac squad slaying literally thousands of Dark Eldar in a single close quarters engagement...
BlaxicanX wrote: It does't usually take the form of Guardsmen spank so much as Space Marine penis-envy. A lot of IG fans and SoB fans have a chip on their shoulder about Space Marines and take delight in low-balling them.
Marine fans in general bet berated a lot, but it's not like fans of other factions (particularly Eldar, Tau, IG) are any less biased and prone to show it.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, all of Abnett's writing is like that, Gaunts Ghosts or no. Brothers of the Snake was even worse, with absurdities like a single tac squad slaying literally thousands of Dark Eldar in a single close quarters engagement...
It's true, he's really bad with the plot-armor. Probably the worst in the biz. I crapped my pants when I read Titanicus when I got to the part where two Skitarri died killing something like 20+ traitor-skitarri in a stand-up gunfight.
But it's "badass" when he writes about anyone that's not a Space Marine benefiting from it.
BlaxicanX wrote: It does't usually take the form of Guardsmen spank so much as Space Marine penis-envy. A lot of IG fans and SoB fans have a chip on their shoulder about Space Marines and take delight in low-balling them.
Marine fans in general bet berated a lot, but it's not like fans of other factions (particularly Eldar, Tau, IG) are any less biased and prone to show it.
Tau and Space Marines are probably neck and neck for the most loathed faction on this site, I imagine.
Ashiraya wrote: In the game itself, four or five guardsmen will reliably beat a Marine in melee. Err, lol? Modern day martial arts masters can easily beat dozens of trained soldiers in close combat
probably not, especially if any of them are packing knives and spades. A couple of trained soldiers? Maybe (though many soldiers today would also be considered quite competent martial artists), but three or four, much less dozens? Haha nope. Unlike movies (where fight scenes with incredible martial artists take many weeks of practice and long hours of choreographed filming), opponents don't just wade in one by one as they're whacked in turn and just try and throw a punch, usually they'll come in together and do things like grab arms, swing blades, trip legs, grab hair/heads, grapple, etc. A human (even a Space Marine) only has so many limbs and eyes, can only do so many things at once, while the elite guy is throwing a kick and taking one guy out, two others are grappling with his head from behind while another is going for his legs.
Contrary to popular opinion, numbers and sheer mass will generally defeat skill, there's a reason most martial arts events (boxing, wrestling, judo, taikwando, etc) also have weight classes and don't try to do silly things like pit one highly skilled guy against half a dozen lower ranked guys.
Untrue. 3 Olympic-level fencing masters are a match for 50 amateur fencers.
The result is far closer than what you had suggested. Initial odds were more than 15:1!
Ashiraya wrote: In the game itself, four or five guardsmen will reliably beat a Marine in melee. Err, lol? Modern day martial arts masters can easily beat dozens of trained soldiers in close combat
probably not, especially if any of them are packing knives and spades. A couple of trained soldiers? Maybe (though many soldiers today would also be considered quite competent martial artists), but three or four, much less dozens? Haha nope. Unlike movies (where fight scenes with incredible martial artists take many weeks of practice and long hours of choreographed filming), opponents don't just wade in one by one as they're whacked in turn and just try and throw a punch, usually they'll come in together and do things like grab arms, swing blades, trip legs, grab hair/heads, grapple, etc. A human (even a Space Marine) only has so many limbs and eyes, can only do so many things at once, while the elite guy is throwing a kick and taking one guy out, two others are grappling with his head from behind while another is going for his legs.
Contrary to popular opinion, numbers and sheer mass will generally defeat skill, there's a reason most martial arts events (boxing, wrestling, judo, taikwando, etc) also have weight classes and don't try to do silly things like pit one highly skilled guy against half a dozen lower ranked guys.
Untrue. 3 Olympic-level fencing masters are a match for 50 amateur fencers.
The result is far closer than what you had suggested. Initial odds were more than 15:1!
They're all coming in one at a time, they're not attacking from multiple directions, very little in the way of ganging up, more than half of them are sitting back 30 feet away most of the time, they're only aiming for a very small and specific target in the most defensible possible place (small object on the chest), etc.
Not a great example. If they'd been trying to kill him, he'd have been done for in the first 15 seconds.
I have taken on if I recall about 7-1 in Live Steel Combat in an open battle and did well for a few minuets, but the key factor with that one was intimidation.
I took out the first three very quickly and the other four backed off and had to regroup before a focused charge took me down.
Now I did have reach on them and most of them it was there 1st time in full armor.
The key though was they had to make a quardinated effort to take me down after having to back off.
Anpu42 wrote: I have taken on if I recall about 7-1 in Live Steel Combat in an open battle and did well for a few minuets, but the key factor with that one was intimidation.
I took out the first three very quickly and the other four backed off and had to regroup before a focused charge took me down.
Now I did have reach on them and most of them it was there 1st time in full armor.
The key though was they had to make a quardinated effort to take me down after having to back off.
But those are amateurs, not professional soldiers like the IG, who will have received fairly extensive CQC and H2H combat training.
Anpu42 wrote: I have taken on if I recall about 7-1 in Live Steel Combat in an open battle and did well for a few minuets, but the key factor with that one was intimidation.
I took out the first three very quickly and the other four backed off and had to regroup before a focused charge took me down.
Now I did have reach on them and most of them it was there 1st time in full armor.
The key though was they had to make a quardinated effort to take me down after having to back off.
But those are amateurs, not professional soldiers like the IG, who will have received fairly extensive CQC and H2H combat training.
Do count in the intimidation factor though. You have some pretty strong instincts telling you to not try to punch that huge armoured monster and instead back off.
Anpu42 wrote: I have taken on if I recall about 7-1 in Live Steel Combat in an open battle and did well for a few minuets, but the key factor with that one was intimidation.
I took out the first three very quickly and the other four backed off and had to regroup before a focused charge took me down.
Now I did have reach on them and most of them it was there 1st time in full armor.
The key though was they had to make a quardinated effort to take me down after having to back off.
But those are amateurs, not professional soldiers like the IG, who will have received fairly extensive CQC and H2H combat training.
They did have about a year of training under them, but it you look at it.
Me the Experienced with 5 years of experience [Space Marine?] vs the Newbs [Guard?] is not a bad example of what that could be like.
If they had not backed off, I probably could have taken them.
Anpu42 wrote: I have taken on if I recall about 7-1 in Live Steel Combat in an open battle and did well for a few minuets, but the key factor with that one was intimidation.
I took out the first three very quickly and the other four backed off and had to regroup before a focused charge took me down.
Now I did have reach on them and most of them it was there 1st time in full armor.
The key though was they had to make a quardinated effort to take me down after having to back off.
But those are amateurs, not professional soldiers like the IG, who will have received fairly extensive CQC and H2H combat training.
They did have about a year of training under them, but it you look at it.
Me the Experienced with 5 years of experience [Space Marine?] vs the Newbs [Guard?] is not a bad example of what that could be like.
If they had not backed off, I probably could have taken them.
It is not equivalent. For the sake of the argument, let's say that the experience is. But the Space Marine not only has more training and experience, he is also far faster, stronger, tougher and (depending on your source) smarter than the Guardsmen can ever be. He also wears super-armour. So the difference is even greater.
Also, OP is thinking wrong about conscripts.
They are 3pp. for 90 pts I can get 30 guys on the table. for 25, they will be going nowhere with fearless and zealet.
vipoid wrote: Honestly though, other than the silly Harker one, they seem quite reasonable.
Did they told you about Yarrick getting his arm cut off by a big boss, then decapitating the boss with his other hand, cutting of the power klaw, and then WITH HIS ONLY REMAINING ARM, WHILE HIS STUMP IS STILL PISSING BLOOD AWAY, LIFTING THE HUGE POWER KLAW OVER HIS HEAD?
Totally reasonable.
Peregrine wrote: And you have to separate out the Catachans from the other IG. Catachans are a deliberate parody army, and most of their fluff is meant to be so stupidly powerful that nobody takes them seriously. But the fact that a Catachan hero slaughters everything with his bare hands doesn't mean that anyone thinks a normal non-parody guardsman could do the same.
Armageddon Orks Hunters are a match for Catachans. They scalp orks.
Yarrick is also a singularly exceptional heroe amongst the uncounted trillions of the Imperial Guard. That's another thing that must be kept in mind. When you're talking numbers like that, you'll get a few spectacularly impressive characters, but there's a reason they're unique Special Characters and not just generic HQ's.
Lord Commissar wrote: Guard are simply amazing, Blobby guard were mainstays of almost every team at ETC.
The paskisher is ridiculous. Ignore cover orders everywhere, they can easily make the best anti-Eldar list.
Dont even get me started on adding in some FW stuff like Thudd Guns.
To be fair, the Thudd Guns are old news next to the Codex-included Wyvern (S4 instead of S5, but is automatically Twin Linked, ignores cover, rerolls failed wounds, is on an AV12 hull with an extra heavy bolter and can't be made to run off the table on Ld7, and isn't immobile, for only 10ppm more). It should also be kept in mind that the "Paskisher" must be accompanied by another tank, making the unit, at a bare minimum assuming no upgrades and 1 Punisher and one cheaper Eradicator, 330pts, and is usually 400pts after kit. The Ignores Cover orders likewise are more finicky that many make them out to be, though are very useful
Vaktathi wrote: Contrary to popular opinion, numbers and sheer mass will generally defeat skill, there's a reason most martial arts events (boxing, wrestling, judo, taikwando, etc) also have weight classes and don't try to do silly things like pit one highly skilled guy against half a dozen lower ranked guys.
Untrue. 3 Olympic-level fencing masters are a match for 50 amateur fencers.
The result is far closer than what you had suggested. Initial odds were more than 15:1!
They're all coming in one at a time, they're not attacking from multiple directions, very little in the way of ganging up, more than half of them are sitting back 30 feet away most of the time, they're only aiming for a very small and specific target in the most defensible possible place (small object on the chest), etc.
Not a great example. If they'd been trying to kill him, he'd have been done for in the first 15 seconds.
No, they try to gang up, but the masters run to spread the herd out. The amateurs are just as vulnerable/invulnerable as the masters, with the same requirement for a heart hit to be taken out.
Vaktathi wrote: Contrary to popular opinion, numbers and sheer mass will generally defeat skill, there's a reason most martial arts events (boxing, wrestling, judo, taikwando, etc) also have weight classes and don't try to do silly things like pit one highly skilled guy against half a dozen lower ranked guys.
Untrue. 3 Olympic-level fencing masters are a match for 50 amateur fencers.
The result is far closer than what you had suggested. Initial odds were more than 15:1!
They're all coming in one at a time, they're not attacking from multiple directions, very little in the way of ganging up, more than half of them are sitting back 30 feet away most of the time, they're only aiming for a very small and specific target in the most defensible possible place (small object on the chest), etc.
Not a great example. If they'd been trying to kill him, he'd have been done for in the first 15 seconds.
No, they try to gang up, but the masters run to spread the herd out. The amateurs are just as vulnerable/invulnerable as the masters, with the same requirement for a heart hit to be taken out.
Easy to say, easy to watch, harder to do.
I watched the whole thing. The nature of the target in and of itself is completely different than what an actual fight would be, it limits the number of people that can attack at any one time and the direction from which they engage, many of them sit wayyy back and casually walk across the area or literally stand there 30-40 feet away for long periods of time, etc. Also, they're all only restricting themselves to trying to fence. Nobody is getting in there and grappling, kicking, punching, grabbing, tripping, jumping on him, etc.
Again, if it were a real fight, he'd have been on the ground and full of holes in about 15 seconds, you wouldn't have people surrounding him with blade points 12" away from his back and sitting around doing nothing but shuffling while one or two guys at a time lunge for what is probably the easiest spot to defend. I'm not denying he's a skilled fencer or made a good show of it, but it's 0% representative of what an actual fight would look like. The attack avenues are channeled to a very specific point and a very specific method of attack, largely negating the value of the numbers, and lots of them know they can't get anywhere close to where they'd need to be to strike (since the target and method of attack are limited) and are sitting around the outer areas doing nothing.
No, they try to gang up, but the masters run to spread the herd out. The amateurs are just as vulnerable/invulnerable as the masters, with the same requirement for a heart hit to be taken out.
Easy to say, easy to watch, harder to do.
In a war or serious battle or whathaveyou, the 30 recruits aren't required to target only one specific point on their body. They get to slice at arms, legs, bleed them to death if they can't get a 1-stroke kill. And that's assuming they don't just mob-rush them.
They can run, yes, but how far until they're off the table?
No, they try to gang up, but the masters run to spread the herd out. The amateurs are just as vulnerable/invulnerable as the masters, with the same requirement for a heart hit to be taken out.
Easy to say, easy to watch, harder to do.
In a war or serious battle or whathaveyou, the 30 recruits aren't required to target only one specific point on their body. They get to slice at arms, legs, bleed them to death if they can't get a 1-stroke kill. And that's assuming they don't just mob-rush them.
In a war or serious battle, the 50 recruits arms, legs, etc are also vulnerable - it goes both ways.
No, they try to gang up, but the masters run to spread the herd out. The amateurs are just as vulnerable/invulnerable as the masters, with the same requirement for a heart hit to be taken out.
Easy to say, easy to watch, harder to do.
In a war or serious battle or whathaveyou, the 30 recruits aren't required to target only one specific point on their body. They get to slice at arms, legs, bleed them to death if they can't get a 1-stroke kill. And that's assuming they don't just mob-rush them.
In a war or serious battle, the 50 recruits arms, legs, etc are also vulnerable - it goes both ways.
While true, there's one sword with one set of eyes against fifty swords with fifty eyes. The sword just can't be in more than one place to parry or thrust or slash at once, while their opponents can be in fifty places at once. Once he goes to strike one guy, the other 49 know they're in the clear and that's going to be it, or once he's surrounded and got twelve dudes behind him, twenty in front and eight to each side, his skill isn't going to mean much when he's getting stabbed/grabbed/punched/slashed/grappled/etc from every direction.
In a close range fight like that, where there's actual intent to harm/kill and they're not just sitting there fencing only and only aiming for one target, the one guy, no matter how skilled, is going down in just a few seconds and not taking more than a couple of guys with him at best.
At least I had a video of something that actually happened, where 3 masters took out 48 guys of lower skill in real life.
Until you have something real to show, maybe you should stop.
So...instead of offering an actual retort to any of the arguments I've made, you're relying on a pre-arrangedJapanese game show clip as your sole evidence for realistic combat involving outnumbered fights and demanding a counter-video...
That's not how any of this works.
Seriously, you don't see how silly that is?
Besides, one-sided outnumbered fights aren't exactly premium upload content, and spending a ton of time trying to find a decent video of something like that for an internet argument isn't high on my list of things to do when written arguments ignored and massive issues with the previous video go unacknowledged.
As for being "all talk", well, we're talking, this is an internet message board...but my life has been neither devoid of interpersonal conflicts, nor of training, competition, and practice.
Besides, none of the points I'm making are particularly complex. One guy can only defend against so much unless there's an artificial constraint on the method, weapon, and target area. His blade can only be in so many places and he can only see so much at any one time.
1 person cannot defeat 1 group of 5 opponents. He can, however, defeat 5 groups of 1 person. Assuming all are of lesser ability. Divide and conquer. When faced with 5 opponents the ideal situation would be to back up into a narrow alley where they can only come at you one at a time, or make them spread out enough that they can't have 2 people hitting you simultaneously.
Vaktathi wrote: While true, there's one sword with one set of eyes against fifty swords with fifty eyes. The sword just can't be in more than one place to parry or thrust or slash at once, while their opponents can be in fifty places at once.
It doesn't work that way. You can fit a lot of people around a Space Marine, but you're never going to get 50 people on him at once. Large numbers come with severe disadvantages; unless you're trained for group melee and supporting each other accordingly (something I strongly doubt Guardsmen are, beyond 'stab X with bayonet') you're going to get in each other's way and against a skilled opponent who is more than able to trick you into hitting one another... Yeah, those numbers suddenly are not that useful.
Besides, in the original case of Marines VS Guardsmen, numbers won't matter. It's not harder for the Marine to sprint through the Guardsmen than it is for the Guardsmen to sprint through high grass, and they are about as threatening as well.
Vaktathi wrote: While true, there's one sword with one set of eyes against fifty swords with fifty eyes. The sword just can't be in more than one place to parry or thrust or slash at once, while their opponents can be in fifty places at once.
It doesn't work that way. You can fit a lot of people around a Space Marine, but you're never going to get 50 people on him at once.
Not all at once, entirely true, but if you've got that many guys, even getting 1/5th or even just 1/10th of that in there will end in the same result and that's entirely feasible, but I was more referring specifically to the video, and yes, numbers can have disadvantages, but in general, unless there's been some method to channel the larger numbers, they'll usually tell unless one side is not only more skilled, but gargantuanly more capable just physically (e.g. a trained MMA fighter versus three dozen newborn kittens), One might try to make a case for Space Marines as such, but the fluff is massively inconsistent on such points and there's enough on the side of the guardsmen such that it does not make the game all that out of whack with reality or the fluff.
Large numbers come with severe disadvantages; unless you're trained for group melee and supporting each other accordingly (something I strongly doubt Guardsmen are, beyond 'stab X with bayonet') you're going to get in each other's way and against a skilled opponent who is more than able to trick you into hitting one another... Yeah, those numbers suddenly are not that useful.
Largely only if you're jammed cheek to jowl and are minimally trained as a unit. A lot also depends on the nature of the fight really, was it a coordinated charge or was it "oh hey both sides turned a corner and found each other 3 feet away" or "oh crap they all just hopped on top of us in this trench and none of us had our weapons handy". Ultimately however, guardsmen are trained professional soldiers that operate as cohesive units, not barely trained Conscripts operating as mobs (hence why there's a Conscript unit with crappier stats).
Besides, in the original case of Marines VS Guardsmen, numbers won't matter. It's not harder for the Marine to sprint through the Guardsmen than it is for the Guardsmen to sprint through high grass, and they are about as threatening as well.
Again, that's a point the fluff is massively inconsistent on. In fact we can go right back to the Dan Abnett thing, in some of his books, a single squad of Space Marines slaughter thousands of Dark Eldar in close quarters without a casualty, in other books they lose a squad (of the Chaos variety) to half a squad of guardsmen, a single Commissar, and a couple dozen primitive villagers.
Vaktathi wrote: One might try to make a case for Space Marines as such, but the fluff is massively inconsistent on such points and there's enough on the side of the guardsmen such that it does not make the game all that out of whack with reality or the fluff.
I don't think there's anything inconsistent about it, as long as you're willing to ignore obvious stupid fluff mistakes and/or character shields. A space marine wears power armor that is effective against bolters/autocannons/etc, weapons that are far more powerful than anything a human can do in melee. You could stand there punching a space marine in the chest until you break every bone in your arms while the space marine stands there ignoring you, and all you would accomplish is maybe getting blood all over the marine's armor and slightly annoying them. Meanwhile, because the space marine is wearing power armor that boosts their strength every blow the space marine delivers is going to deliver crippling injuries that real-world martial arts experts can only dream of. To take down even a single space marine in melee you'd have to throw endless waves of guardsmen at him in the desperate hope that somehow you land a one-in-a-million hit that actually accomplishes something. And that's just stupid when you have guns.
Now, a sergeant/commissar/etc with a power weapon would have a better chance since the power weapon greatly reduces the effectiveness of the marine's armor (if it doesn't ignore the armor entirely) and allows the guardsman to deliver a damaging blow if he can manage to hit the marine. And once you start talking about high-end characters it's possible for them to have enough melee experience and training to consistently beat low-end marines. But that's not really the amazing capabilities of the humble guardsman, it's the existence of weapons that negate power armor and are dangerous even in the hands of a conscript.
(And I can't believe I'm actually defending space marines...)
I don't think there's anything inconsistent about it, as long as you're willing to ignore obvious stupid fluff mistakes and/or character shields.
Which applies probably moreso to Space Marines than anything else.
A space marine wears power armor that is effective against bolters/autocannons/etc, weapons that are far more powerful than anything a human can do in melee.
And yet they die all the time to such weapons (also, with regards to Autocannons, my guess would be they're probably not proof against a direct hit, but rather the blast and shrapnel that does most of their damage). Melee combat in 40k is also not just slinging fists, but blades, pistols, grenades, traps, etc.
You could stand there punching a space marine in the chest until you break every bone in your arms while the space marine stands there ignoring you, and all you would accomplish is maybe getting blood all over the marine's armor and slightly annoying them.
Nobody is saying anything to the contrary, but that's also not what's going to be what anyone's going to do in a fight. Hell, even against a normal person I'm not going to try just punching them in the chest in a fight.
Meanwhile, because the space marine is wearing power armor that boosts their strength every blow the space marine delivers is going to deliver crippling injuries that real-world martial arts experts can only dream of. To take down even a single space marine in melee you'd have to throw endless waves of guardsmen at him in the desperate hope that somehow you land a one-in-a-million hit that actually accomplishes something.
And yet every GW game having both of these factions manages it, far lesser creatures like Gaunts or Ripper swarms are described and portrayed doing it, and we have fluff of it happening. Space Marine armor also is not inviolate, every joint has a weak spot and often so does the abdomen, not all parts are universally as strong as other parts (just like modern armor, bullet proof vests can often stop up to .308 rounds, but that same round will go through any combat helmet like it didn't exist). They've also got a big heavy and potentially vulnerable power pack and heat vent on the back that always seems to be overlooked by everything and everyone all the time
And that's just stupid when you have guns.
In general, close combat when you have guns is almost always stupid, that's why nobody does it in real life
Well, foils are dueling weapons. I've done some fencing and I imagine it would be difficult to gain a big advantage from numbers armed that way.
But that's why you give the men things like spears, pikes, lances, horses, shields... stuff that's great at running people over without much finesse.
As for the Imperial Guard, well, has anyone seen The Wind and the Lion? The marines storming the palace is kind of what I imagined IG Infantry blobs are meant for. Zero finesse, maximum discipline, just marching up and knocking out the defenders with massed rifles. Doesn't really matter if an Eldar can perceive, calculate, and react a hundred times faster than a human if an infantry platoon is just going to brazenly march up and put holes in every inch of terrain.
Depends on the type of fencing. Sabre is the closest to actual battlefield fighting, and the most skillful IMO. The target area is defined from the waist up(because thats what two fighting horsemen would aim for) and you can use the point and the front and back of the blade.
Grey Templar wrote: Depends on the type of fencing. Sabre is the closest to actual battlefield fighting, and the most skillful IMO. The target area is defined from the waist up(because thats what two fighting horsemen would aim for) and you can use the point and the front and back of the blade.
Which is delightful when I strike for someone's legs, they never see it coming, or get so out of sorts by it that I then hit them in the face.
The joys of having unconventional instructors.
Anyways, non-sequitor aside, The most I've ever seen someone hold off successfully is one master against two amateurs when practicing military fencing. Two people, attacking simultaneously from opposite directions and using blind spots, which even someone with the most training can understand, will test the limits of any human fencer I've seen. Damned impressive to watch, by the way, damned frustrating when you're one of the two peons trying to actually hit the guy.
Naturally, for the purposes of our 40k assessment, power armour and post-human-ness would doubtlessly allow a Marine to do better than any unarmoured, merely human swordsman, but provided the Marine is out in the open, being able to attack from multiple directions would still, I'd imagine, end the Marine in question. Power armour has vulnerabilities; joints and cabling are routinely the cause of death or disability for Marines in the fluff, and are within the means of someone armed with a lasgun, bayonet and some basic training to eventually utilize.
Of course, one has to ask themselves, why hasn't this marine bolter'd them to death, bull-rushed and isolated the individual guardsmen or any other variables which would preclude the Guard from being able to pile on and overwhelm the Marine and so on.
I think of it like a bunch of infantrymen attacking a tank. The tank is bristling with weapons and armor, but surrounded by attacking infantry they'll find weaknesses at close range.
At distance of course a single tank, navy seal, or even sniper can probably easily dispatch many times as many enemies.
Even the Primarchs only rated Space Marines as individually worth 10 soldiers of the Imperial Army.
That's good, but not as good as people are making it out to be.
So you got 20 guys fighting a Space Marine in hand to hand. Suddenly, the fifteen closest guys die when the Space Marine explodes because of the krak grenade someone put on the nuclear reactor that is his backpack.
Psienesis wrote: Even the Primarchs only rated Space Marines as individually worth 10 soldiers of the Imperial Army.
In-universe statement.
Are you asserting that the Primarchs were always right and only said logical things?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is also somewhat funny that people think any kind of fencing, parrying etc. would be involved. It wouldn't.
And these are Orks, who are supposed to be really good at melee.
Parrying may be redirecting force, not absorbing it, but it has its limits. You can't redirect an excavator taking a swing at you. You can't really redirect a giant supersoldier swinging at you with a huge chainsaw either.
And these are Orks, who are supposed to be really good at kicking the tar out of smaller things, which happens to include most humans.
Fixed it for ya.
A fight with Orks isn't going to involve fencing because Orks live in a perpetual barroom brawl. A melee between a Marine and, say, a handful of Guardsmen recruited from a hive world's aristocracy is probably going to include people going for precision strikes, targeting joints, and so forth (blocking would probably be an issue because, y'know. You want to keep your arm. The Guardsmen are probably better off dodging in this scenario).
It's also probably going to involve most, if not all, of the Guardsmen ending up dead or badly injured. But even an Astartes can only move so fast. I would guess it all comes down to positioning. If he gets surrounded, there's a decent chance that someone's going to have a shot at him.
And these are Orks, who are supposed to be really good at kicking the tar out of smaller things, which happens to include most humans.
Fixed it for ya.
A fight with Orks isn't going to involve fencing because Orks live in a perpetual barroom brawl. A melee between a Marine and, say, a handful of Guardsmen recruited from a hive world's aristocracy is probably going to include people going for precision strikes, targeting joints, and so forth (blocking would probably be an issue because, y'know. You want to keep your arm. The Guardsmen are probably better off dodging in this scenario).
It's also probably going to involve most, if not all, of the Guardsmen ending up dead or badly injured. But even an Astartes can only move so fast. I would guess it all comes down to positioning. If he gets surrounded, there's a decent chance that someone's going to have a shot at him.
Let's assume a normal heartbeat takes half a second.
We know that a Space Marine (Source: Void Stalker) is capable of sprinting 10 meters from stationary and vaulting a command console in that time.
Let's also assume that the vaulting part ate 1/4th of the time that the whole movement took.
That means we have 0,375 seconds for running 10 meters.
That's something like 30 meters per second, or 95 kph, or about 152 mph (!)
I made a pair of assumptions there, but I doubt shifting that number would affect the main point:
He is not only fast, he is far too fast for even the best human in the galaxy to counter. Unmodified humans have a delay time of 0,5 seconds between seeing something with their eyes and the information being registered in their brain, with additional time then added for deciding on an action and tasking the muscles with carrying out that action. Marines have faster reaction times than that, repeatedly described (I have a ton of sources if you'd like) as being able to move faster than the eye can follow and with millisecond reaction times (Example source: Space Wolf Omnibus page 258).
You can't fight something you are too slow to register, and even if you see it, your arm is too slow to intercept it. You could have a thousand Guardsmen against one Marine and they could do precisely jack because whenever they are shooting or stabbing he isn't there anymore. Surrounding him would not hamper his movement at all, he could trample them with ease or just leap through the crowds.
It's simply not a fair fight. Creatures like Astartes, Eldar Aspect Warriors and Tyranid Warriors compete in a whole different category than the common Guardsman. You don't compare the yield of WMDs and assault rifles, because they are in different categories (although the difference between IG and SM is not quite -that- big).
And before you pull up Cain or Gaunt, we have a word for that: it's called 'plot armour'.
Yes, when you override repeatedly quantified capabilities with non-specified anecdotes, it is plot armour.
Spinner wrote: A melee between a Marine and, say, a handful of Guardsmen recruited from a hive world's aristocracy is probably going to include people going for precision strikes, targeting joints, and so forth (blocking would probably be an issue because, y'know. You want to keep your arm. The Guardsmen are probably better off dodging in this scenario).
A melee between a Space Marine and a handfull of a Hive World's aristocracy is going to result in a dead Marine in no time flat.
Recall that the Hive aristocracy will have (and use) their hyper-tech Syprer suits, pumping them full of stims and such for superhuman capabilities. As the Hunters gain experience, they unlock the various enhanced features of their suits. An experienced Orrus is pretty close to a match for any regular Marine. Back him with a couple Jakaras and a Malcadon, and things finish up very quickly.
tl;dr, a solo Space Marine has ZERO chance against a full Spyre Hunt Team of a hive world's aristocracy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: We know that a Space Marine (Source: Void Stalker) is capable of sprinting 10 meters from stationary and vaulting a command console in that time.
It's simply not a fair fight.
True. But let me arm those Guardsmen with Multi-Lazors (source: C.S. Goto) and appropriate plot armor. A single Guardsmen will easily clear an entire Company of Space Marines without breaking a sweat.
Ashiraya wrote: Let's assume a normal heartbeat takes half a second.
We know that a Space Marine (Source: Void Stalker) is capable of sprinting 10 meters from stationary and vaulting a command console in that time.
Let's also assume that the vaulting part ate 1/4th of the time that the whole movement took.
That means we have 0,375 seconds for running 10 meters.
That's something like 30 meters per second, or 95 kph, or about 152 mph (!)
No, it's much worse than that. 152mph is an average time, but remember that the marine has to accelerate to reach his top speed, then slow down again to stop at the end of the 10m. So the peak speed needs to be much higher. Let's assume the best-case scenario of a constant acceleration to the midpoint, followed by a constant deceleration to a stop. Do a little physics math and this gives us a required acceleration of 28.99 Gs, and a peak speed of ~190 km/h (~188 mph). For comparison, this is well past "this could kill you" levels for a normal human and in the same general range of slamming a car into a solid wall at 75mph. So not only would the space marine probably be in danger of death or serious injury you have to consider the effects on the environment. The footsteps required to generate ~30 G acceleration would be smashing holes in the ground, etc. And this is the best-case scenario of constant acceleration. In reality you can't accelerate constantly by running, you'll have little spikes of force generated by each step. So peak acceleration would be considerably higher, and the space marine would be considerably more dead.
So, I think it's safe to say that "in the space of a single heartbeat" is not meant to be a literal description.
He is not only fast, he is far too fast for even the best human in the galaxy to counter. Unmodified humans have a delay time of 0,5 seconds between seeing something with their eyes and the information being registered in their brain, with additional time then added for deciding on an action and tasking the muscles with carrying out that action. Marines have faster reaction times than that, repeatedly described (I have a ton of sources if you'd like) as being able to move faster than the eye can follow and with millisecond reaction times (Example source: Space Wolf Omnibus page 258).
And yet somehow every time we actually see marines (for example, the GW space marine movie) they move at normal human speeds, if not slower. This is not what space marines look like:
tl;dr, a solo Space Marine has ZERO chance against a full Spyre Hunt Team of a hive world's aristocracy.
unless he is a Space Wolfs. Space Wolfs solo assasins which are breed and made to kill dudes who may have spyre rigged guards with them.
And as Ultramarines>every other marine and SW=marines, an ultramarine could solo them too.
A Space Marine cant simply travel at 95 kmph to run 10 meters. He must first start from 0 kmph and then slow down before reaching the 10M mark. This means it gets very messy when accelerating. To put it simply.
All the while reading heart beats selectively, being able to use muscles and STAYING conscious while you try take on Gs that would kill humans is beyond stupid even as an exaggeration.
I think its clear that given how GW depicts a Space Marine they are not sons of Flash and Superman.
The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.
Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.
The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.
It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.
Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.
Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.
The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.
It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.
Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.
This, 200% this. Space Marines can be cool and everything. But when they're immune to everything, faster than everything, etc, they get boring and stupid real fast, and the ability to suspend disbelief breaks and it starts to look more and more like bad internet fanfiction than badass super soldier.
They also get vastly overestimated, often to the detriment of equivalent or even more powerful units. People will accept a Marine punching all sorts of ridiculous things to death, but try to do the same with an Ogryn and the range of things they'll believe is a lot smaller, despite the Ogryn having been consistently portrayed in every iteration of Warhammer 40,000 as being much stronger and tougher.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.
Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.
The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.
It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.
Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.
This, 200% this. Space Marines can be cool at everything. When they're immune to everything, faster than everything, etc, they get boring and stupid real fast, and the ability to suspend disbelief breaks and it starts to look more and more like bad internet fanfiction than badass super soldier.
Agreed compeletely, Space Marines are my favourite faction and I agree with this whole heartidly.
Also I've missed a lot of the previous discussion but I'm from the OP, I'm assuming he doesn't have much experience with AM or particularly well rounded AM players, some of the best players and toughest games I've had have been against the original IG and now AM and they are literally one of the most iconic factions in the game/books/lore etc.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.
Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.
The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.
It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.
Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.
Exalted, couldn't agree more.
Reading 'There is Only War' at the moment - a short story collection. Probably 6-7 space marine stories in a row that get progressively worse. Was running a mental tally of some Flesh Tearers' kills (vs CSM), every bolt is a killshot, every hit sustained is 'defeated by the Astartes Battleplate(TM)'. Other highlights included a single Space Wolf killing a creature that was destroying vast agri-machines on an ocean world. The marine was around the size of this things eyeball, but that's ok because he's brooding over his lost pack and also is filled with rage(TM). And of course, it wouldn't be complete without some Dark Angel no-name killing a lord-tier Fallen veteran. Seriously. I started just skipping ahead at the first hint of power armour.
Then it moved onto a story about a war orphan by the name of Bas surviving on a world overrun by Orks. Not a space marine in sight. Fantastic read with a damn awesome ending.
Zsolt wrote:Kids, you are knee deep in the "can superman beat batman" bs. Just stop.
Nobody is arguing, so I don't know what you're saying. We're discussing how Space Marines are massively overrated in the books, and, while their power, strength and fighting prowess are formidable, the extent to which the books take it is just numbingly absurd. Also that it is just as irksome to Marine fans as it is to non-Marine fans.
The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.
Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.
The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.
It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.
Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.
Exalted, couldn't agree more.
Reading 'There is Only War' at the moment - a short story collection. Probably 6-7 space marine stories in a row that get progressively worse. Was running a mental tally of some Flesh Tearers' kills (vs CSM), every bolt is a killshot, every hit sustained is 'defeated by the Astartes Battleplate(TM)'. Other highlights included a single Space Wolf killing a creature that was destroying vast agri-machines on an ocean world. The marine was around the size of this things eyeball, but that's ok because he's brooding over his lost pack and also is filled with rage(TM). And of course, it wouldn't be complete without some Dark Angel no-name killing a lord-tier Fallen veteran. Seriously. I started just skipping ahead at the first hint of power armour.
Then it moved onto a story about a war orphan by the name of Bas surviving on a world overrun by Orks. Not a space marine in sight. Fantastic read with a damn awesome ending.
Thank you! My favourite example of awful Marine over-exaggeration is that Iron Warrior who bounces a bolt under a vehicle and kills a sharpshooter in a window two miles away. I do a lot of creative writing, so I don't understand how an author can actually put instances like that into their story without immediately realising how absurd it is. It's like something from a terrible fanfiction. A close second is a story where five Chaos Marines wander into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and proceed to whip them all to death with treads ripped off their tanks.
Frozen Ocean wrote: A close second is a story where five Chaos Marines wander into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and proceed to whip them all to death with treads ripped off their tanks.
That one is actually pretty reasonable though - it does not say all of them where whipped to death, just some.
Plus, it was a company, not a regiment.
Assuming the company just had lasguns, the CSM could very well just take their time and dismantle the company at their leisure. If they had been toting melta/plasma, then yes, they would probably have done a little less procrastinating.
What about the example where a bandolier of frag grenades exploded at a Marine's feet and his armour remained intact?
Or that time a Marine fell a kilometer and not only survived but was also soon able to walk away?
Take a look here, I get much of my debate material from this list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But there are some things I think we actually should ignore, like this one.
The First Heretic wrote:“Everything was in motion to an exacting standard – each twist of the spear haft brought the blade up to block las-fire or down to cut flesh…
A clunk, a click, and the weapon was reloaded. Sythran rose again, already cutting the air with grand sweeps, batting aside the streaking laser fire.
Sythran leapt his cadaver barricade and met them head on. They fell in pieces, and beyond a las-burn along his shoulder guard, the blood on his blade was the only evidence he’d even been fighting.”
Batting aside lasfire, suuuuuure. There's being fast, and then there's being fast.
I'll never understand why people attempt to compare e-peens.
EDIT: Okay, I take that back. I kind of get it, it can be fun to compare fluff. What I don't get is when people treat fantasy fluff as objective material representative of the "true" capabilities of a faction. Or is plot armour an objective trait of power armour (or flak armour, depending on who's being written about). You physically can't do it. It is impossible to maintain fantasy, fluff, and objectivity all at once. Literally, they are mutually exclusive.
At least I had a video of something that actually happened, where 3 masters took out 48 guys of lower skill in real life.
Until you have something real to show, maybe you should stop.
Who cares?
1 man with a belt fed chain gun can take out 50 masters in seconds.
And thats what CC is about. Its not pointy sticks. Its Pointy sticks + guns + grenades + shovels + anything.
Your grand master is facing 50 guys pointing guns at them. In the words of a certain comic strip on the same topic-FREEEM!
Just going back to an earlier point made on how each Loyalist bolt shell kills a CSM, it may not be as unreasonable as you think.
Look at the Mk V armour. Although each suit is a hodge-podge of scraps and spares, the one thing they all have in common is the bonding studs which secure extra layers of sub-standard material like plasteel. The reason for this is cited as being to add extra protection vs enemy Bolter rounds.
In Know No Fear, which details the attack on Calth, the initial attack by the Word Bearers doesn't seem at all faltered by the Ultramarine's armour. In fact, in that case, and when the XIII counterattack, it seems that PA is pretty naff vs Mass-reactives. In fact, the is a scene in it where
Spoiler:
Captain Venetanus and his company or so of marines are in a fortress or something, and bolter rounds are ripping holes in the walls due to the lack of heavy ordnance on the XVII's part
.
As we all know, GW is of the opinion that al CSM forces have the inability to manufacture or maintain the modern equipment of the Loyalists such as Razorbacks, Land Raider variants, Stormravens/Talons, Whirlwinds, Mk VIII armour. A lot of the cult troops are shown in variants of Mk 2 or 3 armour as well (looking at the Khorne Berserkers and Plague Marines in particular).
So from all of that I have a loose theory that in those novels, the CSM are wearing the older plate, Mk 2 and 3 and 4, which are lighter and not as Bolter-proof as the later Mk 5, and presumably 6 and 7, that the loyalists wear.
Frozen Ocean wrote: A close second is a story where five Chaos Marines wander into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and proceed to whip them all to death with treads ripped off their tanks.
That one is actually pretty reasonable though - it does not say all of them where whipped to death, just some.
Plus, it was a company, not a regiment.
Assuming the company just had lasguns, the CSM could very well just take their time and dismantle the company at their leisure. If they had been toting melta/plasma, then yes, they would probably have done a little less procrastinating.
What about the example where a bandolier of frag grenades exploded at a Marine's feet and his armour remained intact?
Or that time a Marine fell a kilometer and not only survived but was also soon able to walk away?
Take a look here, I get much of my debate material from this list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But there are some things I think we actually should ignore, like this one.
The First Heretic wrote:“Everything was in motion to an exacting standard – each twist of the spear haft brought the blade up to block las-fire or down to cut flesh…
A clunk, a click, and the weapon was reloaded. Sythran rose again, already cutting the air with grand sweeps, batting aside the streaking laser fire.
Sythran leapt his cadaver barricade and met them head on. They fell in pieces, and beyond a las-burn along his shoulder guard, the blood on his blade was the only evidence he’d even been fighting.”
Batting aside lasfire, suuuuuure. There's being fast, and then there's being fast.
You don't bat it aside from intercepting it mid-fight. You do how the Jedi do it. You predict where the lowly Guardsmen is aiming, and simply make sure you have your energised blade waiting for the shot. You only need it in the correct spot for a billionth of a second to block the shot. You say that's impossible to predict? Not really. Marines have a much higher mental capacity than humans due to their intense training and their stamina. Marines won't get hampered by fatigue or sleep deprivation, and will operate at full capacity even in battle due to their training to remain calm no matter what. They are trained to calculate things like angles and distance and range, plus have their autosenses to help.
They know the shot travels in a straight line as a laser. They can predict where the shot is going to be by the angle and direction of the firer. They can move faster than the Guardsman's finger, and so by the time the shot actually fires, the blade is in the way and blocks the shot.
Of course, that doesn't work if everyone in the 50 strong Guard squad is all firing at one marine. But that's unlikely to happen. If 50 Guardsmen were spread out in rows of ~10, each is going to fire at one of the 10 marines closest at him, so in reality, the Marine only has to deal with 3 enemies, all firing at slightly different times. He doesn't have to block every shot either, as some miss or go wide. There's just little point mentioning those shots.
I haven't read all the Space Marine fluff but even in the little that I've managed to read their capabilities vary so much from book to book that it's hard to draw any conclusion about what they can really do.
On the one hand in Tome of Fire for example there is at some point a battle scene between Dark Eldar and an IG Armored Column. the DE are simply to fast for the guardsmen to do anything about it, to the point they dodge bolt pisto shots at PB range. Then marines come in and are more than able to match the Dark Eldar in speed.
On the other hand, in the first books of the Horus Heresy: Loken has a rather lengthy duel vs. an Interex officer (which seems to be just a highly trained human with fancy gear) and in general the marines don't seem to be significantly faster than their human opponents (to the point that, in Galaxy in Flames during the attack on Istvaan III capital Lucius says a group of presumably human defenders with Jet Packs are 'too fast').
Let's assume a normal heartbeat takes half a second.
We know that a Space Marine (Source: Void Stalker) is capable of sprinting 10 meters from stationary and vaulting a command console in that time.
Let's also assume that the vaulting part ate 1/4th of the time that the whole movement took.
That means we have 0,375 seconds for running 10 meters.
That's something like 30 meters per second, or 95 kph, or about 152 mph (!)
I made a pair of assumptions there, but I doubt shifting that number would affect the main point:
He is not only fast, he is far too fast for even the best human in the galaxy to counter. Unmodified humans have a delay time of 0,5 seconds between seeing something with their eyes and the information being registered in their brain, with additional time then added for deciding on an action and tasking the muscles with carrying out that action. Marines have faster reaction times than that, repeatedly described (I have a ton of sources if you'd like) as being able to move faster than the eye can follow and with millisecond reaction times (Example source: Space Wolf Omnibus page 258).
This sounds...far more like Eldar hopped up on Movit #11 than something someone in a suit of power armor should be capable of. I mean, I get that this is space fantasy and physics ought to take a deep breath and go read a textbook instead of getting involved, but do we really need to steal its lunch money while we're at it?
Going from the RPGs...I don't have Deathwatch, but I do have a number of Only War books, and they've got stats for Chaos Marines in one of them. At a dead sprint, they can move at a much more reasonable six meters a second - still far faster than a regular human, but not up to superhero speeds. Seems like they should be roughly equivalent. I also get that GeeDub's not huge on enforcing The One True Canon and sources are all over the place and that I'm certainly not going to convince anyone to change their minds over the internet, of course. Just my own headcanon. I do like space marines. I think they're iconic to the setting and pretty cool when they're not overplayed. I also think they're head and shoulders - literally - above Guardsman Joe, who typically regards them as literal Angels of Death and if he's lucky might have a spent Astartes bolter casing as a holy relic. That's nifty and characterful. But I tend to see things like 'a squad of space marines can take and hold a planet' as Imperial propaganda, unless the planet was very very small or they just shot the corrupted governor in the face and teleported out so the PDF could clean up. They're impressive shock troops that rely on mobility and concentrated force, and that does have limits.
From my perspective, anyway.
Oh! Right! Guardsmen!
Still able to take your average Gretchin in a fight.
Spinner wrote: Going from the RPGs...I don't have Deathwatch, but I do have a number of Only War books, and they've got stats for Chaos Marines in one of them. At a dead sprint, they can move at a much more reasonable six meters a second - still far faster than a regular human, but not up to superhero speeds. Seems like they should be roughly equivalent. I also get that GeeDub's not huge on enforcing The One True Canon and sources are all over the place and that I'm certainly not going to convince anyone to change their minds over the internet, of course. Just my own headcanon. I do like space marines. I think they're iconic to the setting and pretty cool when they're not overplayed. I also think they're head and shoulders - literally - above Guardsman Joe, who typically regards them as literal Angels of Death and if he's lucky might have a spent Astartes bolter casing as a holy relic. That's nifty and characterful. But I tend to see things like 'a squad of space marines can take and hold a planet' as Imperial propaganda, unless the planet was very very small or they just shot the corrupted governor in the face and teleported out so the PDF could clean up. They're impressive shock troops that rely on mobility and concentrated force, and that does have limits.
From my perspective, anyway.
Oh! Right! Guardsmen!
Still able to take your average Gretchin in a fight.
I don't think I've ever heard an interpretation I liked better. Epic, gothic, characterful but also with limits and therefore both grand and believable. I can totally imagine guardsmen swapping stories around the campfire of how their great-grandpa honest-to-the-Emperor once witnessed a drop pod assault. To build on what you said, I can imagine bolter cases being sold as relics, like saintly bones in the Dark Ages!
Spinner wrote: Going from the RPGs...I don't have Deathwatch, but I do have a number of Only War books, and they've got stats for Chaos Marines in one of them. At a dead sprint, they can move at a much more reasonable six meters a second - still far faster than a regular human, but not up to superhero speeds. Seems like they should be roughly equivalent. I also get that GeeDub's not huge on enforcing The One True Canon and sources are all over the place and that I'm certainly not going to convince anyone to change their minds over the internet, of course. Just my own headcanon. I do like space marines. I think they're iconic to the setting and pretty cool when they're not overplayed. I also think they're head and shoulders - literally - above Guardsman Joe, who typically regards them as literal Angels of Death and if he's lucky might have a spent Astartes bolter casing as a holy relic. That's nifty and characterful. But I tend to see things like 'a squad of space marines can take and hold a planet' as Imperial propaganda, unless the planet was very very small or they just shot the corrupted governor in the face and teleported out so the PDF could clean up. They're impressive shock troops that rely on mobility and concentrated force, and that does have limits.
From my perspective, anyway.
Oh! Right! Guardsmen!
Still able to take your average Gretchin in a fight.
I don't think I've ever heard an interpretation I liked better. Epic, gothic, characterful but also with limits and therefore both grand and believable. I can totally imagine guardsmen swapping stories around the campfire of how their great-grandpa honest-to-the-Emperor once witnessed a drop pod assault. To build on what you said, I can imagine bolter cases being sold as relics, like saintly bones in the Dark Ages!
It turns out that the Black Library books aren't 40k themed novels, they're propaganda published by the Imperium uses to instill fervor in the general population.
Deadshot wrote: So from all of that I have a loose theory that in those novels, the CSM are wearing the older plate, Mk 2 and 3 and 4, which are lighter and not as Bolter-proof as the later Mk 5, and presumably 6 and 7, that the loyalists wear.
IIRC, the early marks of 2-5 armor employed by CSM are *better* than the current Mk. 7 used by SM.
Deadshot wrote: So from all of that I have a loose theory that in those novels, the CSM are wearing the older plate, Mk 2 and 3 and 4, which are lighter and not as Bolter-proof as the later Mk 5, and presumably 6 and 7, that the loyalists wear.
IIRC, the early marks of 2-5 armor employed by CSM are *better* than the current Mk. 7 used by SM.
They don't make 'em like they used to.
Depends on your source. The Mk 4 was superior to Mk 2 and 3 (an uparmoured 2). But the Mk 6 Corvus has many similar systems that gave the Mk4 superiority. The rotatable helmet, advanced autosenses, shielded cables. Except Mk6 was even better. Mk6 reportedly has superior autosenses. It has the shielded cables but also the compartmentalised sections that can be swapped out easily for replacements and also are apparently lighter and stealthier for no loss of protection.
And apparently Mk7 has all those features as well as some minor improvements.
? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
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