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You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).

I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.

thechosen1 wrote:
You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).

I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.

AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad

 Ustrello wrote:

thechosen1 wrote:
You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).

I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.

AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad

Because they're not Space Marines with Bolters

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

thechosen1 wrote:
You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).

I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.

AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad

Because they're not Space Marines with Bolters

Fair point. Maybe its because I've been playing for a while but I've drifted from space marines quite a bit.

Even if they have long range weapons it doesn't mean that you wont get the first turn to shoot and you can take multiple heavy weapon teams and tanks kitted out to deal with MC's rather reliably. To many people cry "OP" and think they are invincible where if you prepare for them in a balanced list you should be fine.

bibotot wrote:
I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:
- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.

Don't look now, but I think people think you meant it.

Lovely sarcasm, congrats.

 Ustrello wrote:

thechosen1 wrote:
You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).

I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.

AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad

They are rather slow and need cover to survive longer , and it so happens that in 7th being fast is very important and cover gets ignored by a lot of people. And other good armies have tanks in the 100-150pts range too, offten as transports.

I would say that some folks play IG for fluff reasons. Some players play IG for aesthetics. I play IG for the numbers reason. Sure maybe the units are not the best, but typically, you can have 3 to 5 times as many for the same choice on a force org chart.

IG was my first 40k army and I always loved playing them! I have never been a very competitive player and Ive definitely lost more games then Ive won, but I love setting down my gun line with a few counter attack units for my Guard army and blasting huge chunks out of my opponents army.

All of the reasons you listed as negatives for the IG are true, but they are cheap and can have access to a wide variety of heavy weapons placed on so many different platforms (from infantry to tanks to fortifications) that an IG player can have a very effective all comers list.

 Ustrello wrote:

thechosen1 wrote:
You forget that the aesthetic of the Guard is taken from the same sources that Gears, Halo, and the others you mention rip off of; Starship Troopers (the book) and Aliens (among others, those two being the most prominent).

I guess you're new to the game. From around 2008-till the new Codex dropped, Guard were formidable. They still are. Guard still have a reputation for power in my gaming group.

AV14 tanks for 130-150 points, mass infantry on the cheap, good flyers. I really don't see how OP thinks guard is bad

Because you win the game by being fast and durable, which IG is not.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wow, yeah. Clearly you're not a guard player, or have ever played against a decent one before.

What you're describing are characteristics of the army, not weaknesses.

I know. The army is NOT weak. They are just fething stupid, completely contradicts the sci-fi theme.

bibotot wrote:


I know. The army is NOT weak. They are just fething stupid, completely contradicts the sci-fi theme.

How?

bibotot wrote:

I know. The army is NOT weak. They are just fething stupid, completely contradicts the sci-fi theme.

I don't get this statement at all? as stated, how?

 gmaleron wrote:

bibotot wrote:

I know. The army is NOT weak. They are just fething stupid, completely contradicts the sci-fi theme.

I don't get this statement at all? as stated, how?

In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.

I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.

I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.

It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.

The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.

Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.

Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.

Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)

The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.

Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.

the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.

If I recall some of the fluff the Batteries of Las-Guns can be recharged by placing them next to a fire for a few hours.

They can be placed in a fire to recharge them, although this does reduce the life of the battery.

The power packs can absorb light and heat, but the most efficient way to charge them is to plug in.

bibotot wrote:

In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.

I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.

In the far future, genetically enhanced superbeings are hitting people with swords instead of high caliber weaponry.

If you're going to apply any sort of logic to 40k, at least be consistent about it. Which means pretty much nothing makes sense and you should therefore think nothing fits and is the worse thing ever.

If you wanted 40k to be accurate it'd be you rolling on a technological innovation chart to see if your society could develop the capacity to equip their unmanned space probes with weapons superior to your opponents unmanned space probes. Then you'd launch the probe unfathomable distances to fight in wars that probably ended twenty thousand years ago by the time of the engagement due to time dilation.

 Blacksails wrote:

bibotot wrote:

In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.

I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.

In the far future, genetically enhanced superbeings are hitting people with swords instead of high caliber weaponry.

If you're going to apply any sort of logic to 40k, at least be consistent about it. Which means pretty much nothing makes sense and you should therefore think nothing fits and is the worse thing ever.

Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.

Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.

bibotot wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

bibotot wrote:

In the far future, we have fething trench war, with fething soldiers using weapons even worse than the ones in WW1. If the Orks can manufacture better guns more easily, then why the Imperials don't follow their technology and mass produce shootas for all of their Guardsmen? Shootas for all Guardsmen.

I get that in previous editions, the Orks have bolters instead of machine guns, but come on.

In the far future, genetically enhanced superbeings are hitting people with swords instead of high caliber weaponry.

If you're going to apply any sort of logic to 40k, at least be consistent about it. Which means pretty much nothing makes sense and you should therefore think nothing fits and is the worse thing ever.

Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.

Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.

If that's what you're going off of, then hordes of poorly equipped, expendable serfs (Guardsmen) fit in rather well.

bibotot wrote:
Swords, Power Armor and Daemons are what make up the Gothic theme of the game.

So are things like trench warfare with plasma guns.

Imperial Guards are ripoff from Star Wars and Starship troopers, with excellent portrayals in books but terrible representation on the tabletop.

No, they have absolutely nothing to do with either of those IPs. If anyone in 40k is a Starship Troopers ripoff it's the space marines and Tau crisis suits (in fact, give the Tau nuclear missiles on their crisis suits and you've got a perfect Starship Troopers clone). And unless there's some obscure EU thing that matches 40k the only thing in common between Star Wars and the IG is that both of them have human soldiers with guns (something that 95% of scifi armies have).

Spinner wrote:I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.

It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.

Grey Templar wrote:The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.

Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.

Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.

Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)

The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.

Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.

the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.

All things considered, i'd rather be shot with the lasgun, thank you very much.

A ww1 (or 2) soldier standing right next to me and pulling the trigger is probably going to kill me. Meanwhile a lasgun has a 50% chance to not even seriously injure me, and if i'm wearing a tanktop or muscle-shirt of some description then i've got a 33% chance of avoiding even that. To say nothing of the fact that the guardsman has a 50% chance to miss me after putting the rifle to my head.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Spinner wrote:I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.

It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.

Grey Templar wrote:The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.

Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.

Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.

Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)

The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.

Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.

the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.

All things considered, i'd rather be shot with the lasgun, thank you very much.

A ww1 (or 2) soldier standing right next to me and pulling the trigger is probably going to kill me. Meanwhile a lasgun has a 50% chance to not even seriously injure me, and if i'm wearing a tanktop or muscle-shirt of some description then i've got a 33% chance of avoiding even that. To say nothing of the fact that the guardsman has a 50% chance to miss me after putting the rifle to my head.

I suppose you also think that a tank shell fired into your chest only has a 83% chance of killing you. The game is an abstraction.

There's also mentions in the fluff how you can chop an arm with a lasgun. A even decapitate a SM with a longlas + hotshot rounds.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Spinner wrote:I suspect that a lightweight, semiautomatic (or automatic, depending on the source, I suppose), easy to aim weapon that is capable of burning a hole clean through someone and can be reloaded by placing expended magazines in a campfire is not, in fact, worse than small arms used in WWI.

It's just that no one had to fight a bioweapon that can't decide if it's on a religious crusade or a pub crawl and that is fully capable of pulling your arms off with its bare hands in WWI.

Grey Templar wrote:The Lasgun is far superior to any modern small arms.

Its got a decently powerful shot, ammo can be replenished by charging it for a little bit, its accurate, and easy to maintain and operate.

Its powerful. But everything else in the 41st millennium is very very powerful.

Its not efficient to equip the Imperial Guard with more powerful, and expensive, Bolters. That would mean you'd need to increase your supply lines to now supply bolter ammo when before they supplied no ammo at all. A single bolt round is more expensive than a lasgun(which is silly cheap)

The Imperium's greatest resource is the literally endless supply of manpower it has. Its more efficient to send 100 guardsmen with lasguns into a fighter where they'll take 80% casualties than it is to send 1 guardsmen with a bolter.

Suffer a deliberate reduction in firepower to make up the difference in numbers, something you have in abundance.

the Imperium has the population to, at even just 0.5% growth, to add billions upon billions of soldiers each year to replenish losses.

All things considered, i'd rather be shot with the lasgun, thank you very much.

A ww1 (or 2) soldier standing right next to me and pulling the trigger is probably going to kill me. Meanwhile a lasgun has a 50% chance to not even seriously injure me, and if i'm wearing a tanktop or muscle-shirt of some description then i've got a 33% chance of avoiding even that. To say nothing of the fact that the guardsman has a 50% chance to miss me after putting the rifle to my head.

Rules =/= fluff. The 50% chance to hit represents shooting a target thats trying not to be shot and from some degree of distance and the general training he's received. The commissar's summary execution represents a muzzle to the back of the head.

Fluff is that a hole is bored into your body that cooks the surrounding tissue. You now have third degree burns in a very large around around the initial wound, assuming the explosive force of the water in your flesh getting flash boiled at the point of impact didn't kill you outright. A las wound is only better for you than a bullet in the case of a graze because it will cauterize the wound instead of you bleeding. But a direct hit is going to be just as bad if not worse.

And to add in relation to your tank top joke,, Lasguns would be nore than capable of blasting clean through your clothes, stop being stupid. The things that represent 6+ saves are Ork armour (could be a tough leather jacket the Orks simply believe makes them tougher, or a bare metal plate that will reflect, disperse or otherwise lessen the energy hitting flesh) or Tyranid chitin (bio-engineered to be reflective and inpact resistant enough that it can resist lasbolts). The 5+ saves represent IG and basic Eldar armour, surprisingly high-tech bidy armour that is capable of stopping the large calibre rounds the Orks chuck down range. 4+ save is full body carapces and Fire Warrior and Aspect Warrior armour, as well as the Orks wearing heavy metal plates and largish Tyranids like Tyranid Warriors (2 metres tall and deadly). 3+ save is the stuff like PA that is pretty much impervious to all modern day firepower (Autocannon and Assault Cannons, equivilent to modern tank cannons and miniguns, ars AP 4), as well as the Tau battlesuitd and the heavier stuff like Carnifexes and Wraithlords. 2+ armour is the just rediculously hard stuff like Terminator Armour, Mega Armour, Wraithknights, Riptides, Tyrannofexes, ,Broadsides.

If you take it in a vacuum, the AP value of the Lasgun is bad. But when you consider what 40k actually is, which is a universe opposite to ours where armour technology far outstrips most firepower, and then consider what you are actually firing at, you'll realise that you're asking a lot. Look at the Bolter, Shurikan or even the Pulse Rifle. A .75 explosive armour penetrating round, a tiny ninja star shot as a bullet, and a weaker version of plasma. All of them can just about go through IG flak armour but you also have occurences where bolters rip massive holes from building walls, shurikens go clean through solid armour and pulse rilfes can almost compete with Snipers for range. Its like asking the AK-47 (Lasgun) wielding militia to stand up and be measured against Special Forces with the latest and greatest assault rifles, grenade launchers, bulletproof bodygloves and high quality training.

 Deadshot wrote:
The 5+ saves represent IG and basic Eldar armour, surprisingly high-tech bidy armour that is capable of stopping the large calibre rounds the Orks chuck down range.

Unless it's Catachan IG, in which case a 5+ save represents some torn-up scraps of a t-shirt at most. But the conclusion here isn't that lasguns are stopped by t-shirts, it's that the rules are an abstraction and give an armor save to things that shouldn't have one fluff-wise because of balance reasons.

An autocannon is a 40mm canon, its nowhere near the 125mm stuff we have on our tanks.