Let's face it - the Eldar codex is currently the best in the entire 40k meta (crazy ally combinations and clever builds aside). So in order to no longer get called cheese and beardy, I've devised five simple things an Eldar player who is sick and tired of developing a guilty conscience every time he brings his army on the table, could do:

1) Dont use the offensive power of the serpent shield

2) Ignore the laserlock special rule on his scatterlasers

3) Pretend his shuriken catapults and shuriken cannons do not have bladestorm (make an exception for the Dire Avengers who after all lost their actual bladestorm power from previous codex and thus deserve it)

4) Do not field more than 1 Wraithknight

5) Do not ally with Dark Eldar, or if you do, do it for modelling reasons and not to abuse their webway portal to DS your toughest stuff.

...if an Eldar player observed these 5 house rules, would you say Eldar are a fair and balanced army and no longer deserve to be hissed at?

I mean, arguably. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

... And 'nids will hiss at anything...

(Sorry)

 Dannyrulx wrote:
... And 'nids will hiss at anything...

(Sorry)

Wait, I'm not understanding here. Are you saying that I hiss at Eldar because I play nids? Or because you play nids? I'm lost.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, arguably. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

Dont really agree with this train of thought.

I am happy if a Tau player doesnt bring a Triptide in his armylist though he very well could. I wouldnt consider that handicapping himself.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, arguably. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

Dont really agree with this train of thought.

I am happy if a Tau player doesnt bring a Triptide in his armylist though he very well could. I wouldnt consider that handicapping himself.

Well, there's a difference between not spamming and limitling Rules. I could NOT bring 6+ Night Scythes and that would be fair. But the minute I have to not use the Tesla rule because it's too good, there's a problem.

It's the fact that even without Laser Lock, even with only 1 Wraithknight, even without Bladestorm, Eldar have an obnoxious amount of good options, and the Wave Serpent, Wraithknight, ext would still be just as lethal. 60" S7 Ignores Cover still kills most vehicles easily, and some armies still can't deal with 1 Wraithknight. That aside, you're talking about getting rid of a lot of special rules, just to bring them in line with everyone. If I were to play against that, I would feel like the opponent is babying me, which is not fun, and makes my victory hallow, or their victory even more of a kick in the teeth.

First, I strongly agree on the need. The implementation would have to be very widely agreed upon (like 2+/4+ for 2+ rerollables) for it to really do a lot of good. But we need something.

1) Probably a good idea. I'd rather something a little less nerfie (6"? 24"/Gets Hot? Lots of ideas out there), but this is much better than the current situation. I've gone falcon-heavy, but capacity 6 and a HS slot really keep that from doing much.

2) Is Laser Lock actually stronger-than-fair outside shooting the Serpent Shield? Warwalkers are good, but fragile. Vypers and Falcons aren't great. Wraithlords are tad on the underpowered side, and usually don't take them. Anything (outside superheavies) I'm missing?

3) Shurikats - Are Guardians really a problem? And are my Autarch and Farseer's pistols all that big a deal?
ShuriCannons - Basically a weaker Assault Cannon? At a ROF of 3, has pseudorending on it done all that much?

4) Know your meta. In metas without a lot of the big-bads, even one could be too much. I'd feel bad fielding one against most of the people I play. It's not that they're bad, that's just not the game we play. On the other hand, my Exodite conversion idea for one is sooo epic....

5) What would you think of allying in some DE in a fairly pan-Eldar list (fluffwise, long story)? Is it a problem to use the WWP for Harlequins?

(Honest questions)

People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

 Quickjager wrote:
People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

Do you hate Scions from Militarum Tempestus too since they ignore 3+ saves? What about Sniper Kroot, SM sniper scouts, Eldar rangers etc?

Sniper Scouts have 5 pseudorending shots. Serpent has 3. For a lot more points.

Razorback w/AC has 4 actually-rending shots. (AC straight outclasses the SC)
Razorback Las/Plas has 2/3 ap2 s7/9 shots
Tac squads can have las/plas(/combiplas) too

Those are also a lot cheaper. And those are just some C:SM options.

Bladestorm seems to be overly feared. The Serpent is a problem, but is 3 ap5 ap2-on-a-6 shots at 24" a real problem, or just an insult atop the Serpent's injury?

Bladestorm isn't inherently troubling to me, mostly since the bodies you're paying for it on are T3/5+ or T3/4+ infantry and the shuriken cannon is taking up space that's probably better used for heavy weapons that can kill things your infantry can't. The Wraithknight isn't too much of a problem simply because it's actually fairly priced (T8/W6, yeah, but three hundred points and you only have a 3+/5++?). Laser Lock is an interesting way to differentiate an otherwise uninteresting gun, I have no objection to its existence. Especially seeing as it makes ground-based weapons not as bad as they otherwise might be when shooting flyers.

The biggest balance issues in the Codex are tied to Wave Serpents and the Seer Council. The Wave Serpent puts out way too much firepower for its price; I don't know that ignoring the Serpent Shield entirely is the solution, but since vehicles are killed by glances in this edition letting people pen you isn't enough of a sacrifice to make you stop using the extra S7 shots to keep it around. If you couldn't jink the turn after you used the Serpent Shield (or at least lost the benefit of holofields) shooting with it would be a lot more of a trade-off instead of a free extra gun. Reducing the range of the gun might help too. As to the Seer Council I've been advocating for a houserule preventing the stacking of Blessings for a long time; sure, you can have rerollable saves, or 2+ armour on jetbikes, or 3+ jink, but not rerollable 2+ armour/3+ jink/4+ Inv on the same unit at the same time. One Blessing per unit.

As to the DE Allies issue I'd suggest keeping in mind that allying in Dark Eldar lets the Eldar field some otherwise completely ass units halfway effectively, if not competitively (Raider full of Howling Banshees, anyone?). If you're annoyed by people using them to perfect-accuracy Deep Strike Wraithguard/Wraithblades into your backline I'd like to observe that Space Marines have been pulling bs like that for years and I haven't heard the clamour for drop pods to be banned yet. That said giving Wraithguard/Wraithblades a rule that prohibits Independent Characters other than Farseers/Spiritseers joining them would not be out of place.

And while we're at it is it really so much to ask that Autarchs get interesting equipment to compete with Exarchs? What kind of Warhammer army gives their sergeants fancier toys than their generals? Even if they don't get Exarch wargear some sort of library of fancy Path of Command stuff that does something beyond what grunts get might make them actually worth taking.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

Do you hate Scions from Militarum Tempestus too since they ignore 3+ saves? What about Sniper Kroot, SM sniper scouts, Eldar rangers etc?

Lol Pozy you try too hard. Don't become the morgoth of the Tau.

Hotshot Lasguns are Str3AP3, at that value you're rolling a 50/50 just to wound; not to mention the troop they're on costs 12 points base. Sniper rifles are also Heavy 1 so its not even comparable. Keep making me laugh Pozy, you're too funny when you try so hard.

Really?
Compared to a standard Shuriken round, to wound a Marine:
1/2/3 - both fail
4 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing
5 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing, Hotshot does automatically
6 - Both kill

Looks to me like HotShot eats Marines much better.

As for being 12 ppm, DAs are 13ppm, and Guardians are 9ppm, have 12" range, and are AP'ed by Boltguns.

Doesn't seem all that unfair, especially since most IG are all about special and/or heavy weapons. DAs can get one melee weapon (on a s3t3 model). Their Shuriken weapons are their point. Guardians are about being the last line if anything gets too close to their heavy weapon. So the differences seem right.

Snipers might be Heavy 1, but they're also range 36, so 2x-3x the range of a shuricat. And autowound on a 4/5. And most aren't considered great. Even with both walking and running, the Sniper Rifle outranges shuriCats by a wide margin.

I think the point is that ShuriCats are not the only way Troops have of popping Termies. Plasma Gun anyone?

I played an Eldar army for around 12 years now. My theme is a infantry based aspect warriors heavy list. My only vehicules are a squadron of Vypers and a Single Wave Serpent. The new codex gave my boys and girls a great boost in mobility and efficency and all my opponents have seen my army has fair and fun to play against.

The big problem in my new codex is the fact that Wave Serpent are too strong for their cost (they should cost around a 150 pts without any upgrades in my opinion).

Bladestorm isn't such an issue and mostly revolves around fear factor. Combat focus is such a great thing to me that I am incapable of judging it fairly and would like to have other people opinion on it.

Scatterlasers special rules are mostly devastating on a Wave Serpent for it's mostly without significant effect on other units.

I never used or played against a Wraithknight, so I can't judge its strengh really well, but I would say its price is very high and reasonnable for its strengh. Of course, three of them in a thousand point match is very excessive but that is more due to the very bad system of unit selection of 40K (which is great for special scenario and narrative play, but poor for competitive play) than the rule of the thing itself.

Seers should also be unable to ride on a jetbike. During third eddition, it was the case. Farseer were seen has to old and important to ride a jetbike like an eldar teen (those damn brats trample our flowers and call us names all the time!!!). Removing that option would make them more balance by removing them a chance for T4 and a normal 3+ save on top of ridiculous mobility. I would agree that two identical warlock blessing should not stack, but I though it was the case? Someone really claimed to have 2++ save because of two spell of protect on the same squad? That seems very stupid.

All in all, Wave Serpent and to a lesser extend Jetseers are a poison to our army for it overshadow all the good things you can do with our codex and I have no doubt that in a few years it will be adjusted. For now, I would propose Eldar player to ignore the shield completly and most of the problem linked to our army will be done. Each faction of 40K has its special thing that makes it great. To me Bladestorm, combat focus are the Eldar special stuff. Necron have Will be Back!, Tesla and gauss weapons, Space Marine Drop pods and And They Shall Know no Fear, Tau awesome long range firepower, Imperial Guard the best regular tanks in the game, etc.

Jetseers and Troops Jetbikes exist because Codex: Craftworlds got taken out and the 4e book was supposed to let the Eldar simulate the major Craftworlds, and Saim-Hann is supposed to be able to run an all-Jetbike army. They're not inherently dumb.

I'm talking about stacking different Blessings, not the same one. Protect, Conceal, and Fortune are all reasonable alone, it's when you have all of them affecting one unit that Jetseers become silly.

 Quickjager wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

Do you hate Scions from Militarum Tempestus too since they ignore 3+ saves? What about Sniper Kroot, SM sniper scouts, Eldar rangers etc?

Lol Pozy you try too hard. Don't become the morgoth of the Tau.

Hotshot Lasguns are Str3AP3, at that value you're rolling a 50/50 just to wound; not to mention the troop they're on costs 12 points base. Sniper rifles are also Heavy 1 so its not even comparable. Keep making me laugh Pozy, you're too funny when you try so hard.

What do you mean by "Morgoth of the Tau?" I'm assuming its something bad.
Its not that much of a difference to be honest.

Bharring wrote:
Really?
Compared to a standard Shuriken round, to wound a Marine:
1/2/3 - both fail
4 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing
5 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing, Hotshot does automatically
6 - Both kill

Looks to me like HotShot eats Marines much better.

Well, 22% chance to kill a marine, compared to 18% for the DAs - not sure that counts as 'much better'.

Also, bear in mind is that Hotshot lasguns are rapid fire weapons with a range of 18", whereas DA shuriken guns are assault 2 weapons with 18" range. So, at ranges 12"<18", those DAs will be getting twice as many shots as the Scions.

I never knew that shuriken guns were assault 2, I assumed that they were rapid fire. I can kinda see now why Quickjagger hated on me

I'd suggest keeping in mind also that the Eldar are supposed to be an army of elite hyper-specialized units; Dire Avengers are better at wrecking infantry at close range than most Troops, because that's their area of expertise. They're never going to compete with anyone else on anti-armour or long-ranged fire. Take out Bladestorm and Dire Avengers can't do the only task they're there for as well and they already can't do anything else.

Im actually glad that there is a post for this cause I can say the eldar are a little intense! I play vs eldar a lot. The problem I have is

1) constant psychic powers debuff, buffs, all that stuff.

2) Wraith knights with suncannon AP2 never taking terminators again!

3) Wave serpents. They are just the worst.

Besides these three things eldar are not that bad and i must say I suck when i play marines vs eldar but orks (especially with that new codex) rock vs them im able to control the board swamp the knight with dakka and claws.

Marines are just awful to play vs eldar. But maybe you guys have some pointers with fighting eldar with marines.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Im actually glad that there is a post for this cause I can say the eldar are a little intense! I play vs eldar a lot. The problem I have is

1) constant psychic powers debuff, buffs, all that stuff.

2) Wraith knights with suncannon AP2 never taking terminators again!

3) Wave serpents. They are just the worst.

Besides these three things eldar are not that bad and i must say I suck when i play marines vs eldar but orks (especially with that new codex) rock vs them im able to control the board swamp the knight with dakka and claws.

Marines are just awful to play vs eldar. But maybe you guys have some pointers with fighting eldar with marines.

I never remember, can vanilla Marines get Divination Librarians?

No.

(Tigirus and Mantis Warriors can)

@Vipoid

In the debate Scions vs Dire Avengers against Space Marines, both are comparable. Scions cost 1 less point, but are worst in close combat and at longer range were rapid fire hurts the damage output of the Scions. Deep Striking abilities and move through cover is a bigger bonus than the conter-attack abilitie of the Dire Avengers, but not by much. The fact that they have access to special weapons is an advantage for the Scion, but they pay a reasonnable price for it. They also have the possiblity to have easy to use and very effective orders on top of psychic buffs like the Dire Avengers. In the end I would say those two units are quite similar in use, endurence, strengh and points. For those reasons, I think its fair to compare a Scion to Dire Avenger. I think we could talk of good power balance between those two units who have the same niche in their respective list: elite light infantry. The big difference you, and many other player might see, is the numbers of tool Eldar have to deal against other elite armies compare to the Tempestus or the Militarum. I would also like to point that personnal lack of experience against a Tempestus army (a rare beast in my meta) might be the reason you, and others, perceive Dire Avengers has stronger than Scions. Feel free to argue against me on that point though, I am not a Mathhammer expert or even fan its just my guts talking.

@AnomanderRake

I do think its possible to recreate a very good list for Saim Hann by using a Autarch on a Jetbike for a leader and I am in favor of Jetbike has troops. But I am still on the fence about Jetseers. One thing certain, staking blessings like lego bricks shouldn't be tolerated especially on a unit like that.

@zombiekila707

Eldar always struggled against horde armies like orks or Tyranid swarms. The short range, low endurence and small numbers of most of their units makes them naturally vulnerable to that kind of strategy. On the other hand, Eldars have always been very good at defeating other elite army, especially Space Marines who, while very good units, are more generalist than the specilised Eldars. This cost them big for they have a perfect tool to beat Space Marines in every area. To defeat them with Space Marine, what works best (at least against me), is guts and the big risk of close combat where even the average Space Marine can pull its high T and S to good use. If you fail, you find yourself in the optimum range of all Eldar guns and you die fast. If you pull it off, you negate the Eldar advantage in firepower and use your resilience to defeat them. I have seen it work with massive drop pod assault a few time, but you need to deploy correctly and a bit of luck (like always). I didn't played much games against Marines these days, so I don't know much about their new tools, but I think you can achieve air superiority rather easily which would help you against our most powerful weapons. Hope it can help you a bit. By hte way, sniper scouts and sternguard veterants can take down a Wraithknight and Wraithlord for a nice price and still be efficient against other units.

epronovost wrote:
They also have the possiblity to have easy to use and very effective orders on top of psychic buffs like the Dire Avengers.

Regarding Orders, it's likely the scions will be either advancing (if they want to make full use of their short-range weapons) or deep striking - both of which can easily put them out of the range of orders (just 12").

epronovost wrote:
In the end I would say those two units are quite similar in use, endurence, strengh and points. For those reasons, I think its fair to compare a Scion to Dire Avenger. I think we could talk of good power balance between those two units who have the same niche in their respective list: elite light infantry. The big difference you, and many other player might see, is the numbers of tool Eldar have to deal against other elite armies compare to the Tempestus or the Militarum.

I'd also add that (in the AM book, at least) Scions are elite choices - whereas Dire Avengers are troops. And, getting anti-MEQ/anti-TEQ in the latter seems a little more valuable.

epronovost wrote:
I would also like to point that personnal lack of experience against a Tempestus army (a rare beast in my meta) might be the reason you, and others, perceive Dire Avengers has stronger than Scions. Feel free to argue against me on that point though, I am not a Mathhammer expert or even fan its just my guts talking.

In terms of a full Tempestus army, I also have no experience. The only thing I have to go on is what I've heard - which is that Tempestus armies aren't very good.

 Dannyrulx wrote:
... And 'nids will hiss at anything...

(Sorry)

'nids, bugs, hiss? Geddit? No? Ok, I'll eat a cookie and come back.

@Vipoid

You are perfectly right about orders and distance for Scions in the context of a Militarum army. They usually are used in the backfield for suicide strikes. But in the context of the Scions in a Tempestus army, this is much less of an issue because of the proximity of the Command squads and less suicidal strategy not to mention they are also troops in that situation. In that context I would declare the two units roughly equals, but I would concede that in a Militarum force, they may be weaker than Dire Avengers (still not by that much though). 40K isn't hard science eather. Personnal preferences might make the Dire Avengers better than the Scions (or the oposite), but I would think that considering one clearly superior to the other an error of judgement.

In my opinion, Tempestus armies plays a lot like Eldar. You move fast, strike hard, tries to gain synergie bonus between your squads to win and cross your finger when the ennemy start to shoot at you for you can drop like flies. I tried one myself (I am the one guy who plays that in my meta). Its not that bad (average I would say), but it lacks options compared to the other armies of 40K. Who knows, maybe the future. hold nice stuff for it.

You mostly replied on this board. What is your opinion on Bladestorm? I would also be interested in knowing your opinion on Dire Avengers and Scions. it could help continue our discution if you please.

I think ignoring laserlock would be enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As that gives them very definiable weaknesses even moreso against flyers.

It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It's not so much Laser Lock, but the Scatter Laser/Serpent Shield Combo.

For example, I regularly run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance (and yes I know, statistically Dual Lance is better. Shut up). I've never heard a complaint about twin-linking the Bright Lances.

With Serpents, you get 4 Twin-linked shots (at BS4) at 36". With a single hit, you can get another D6+1 BS4 shots that are Twin-linked and ignore cover. If at 24", you'll get another 3 Twin-linked BS4 shots. 4-7 shots are Strength 6, with the remaining 2-7 cover ignoring shots are Strength 7.


With all that, remember Scatter Serpents cannot touch AV14 and are then forced to rely on other units to deal with it (like all the Bright Lances I enjoy running).

Nobody has ever complained when I mount one on my Falcon.

Hi its a good suggestion and similar to that which we have implemented (with other things) in our Apocalypse games and for friendly games.

For Eldar:
We have the Serpent Shield as one shot and flamer template
Howling Banshees can assault out of any vehicle
Falcons are Dedicated Transports for all units that can have Serpents

We hadn't looked at changing Bladestorm tbh

. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

We see it as trying to achieve some degree of balance that GW singularly failed to achieve and apparently have no interest in looking at after the fact. Broken lists don't help test a persons skill or indeed anyone have fun except of course the most WAAC gamers.

Isn't it time Morgorth came in and said how underpowered and weak Wave Serpents are and how he is an exceptional skilled player because despite this and all the other disadvantages of being an Elder player he can use them effectively to beat his opponents.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Isn't it time Morgorth came in and said how underpowered and weak Wave Serpents are and how he is an exceptional skilled player because despite this and all the other disadvantages of being an Elder player he can use them effectively to beat his opponents.

Naw, he usually stays away from Proposed rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
It's not so much Laser Lock, but the Scatter Laser/Serpent Shield Combo.

For example, I regularly run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance (and yes I know, statistically Dual Lance is better. Shut up). I've never heard a complaint about twin-linking the Bright Lances.

With Serpents, you get 4 Twin-linked shots (at BS4) at 36". With a single hit, you can get another D6+1 BS4 shots that are Twin-linked and ignore cover. If at 24", you'll get another 3 Twin-linked BS4 shots. 4-7 shots are Strength 6, with the remaining 2-7 cover ignoring shots are Strength 7.


With all that, remember Scatter Serpents cannot touch AV14 and are then forced to rely on other units to deal with it (like all the Bright Lances I enjoy running).

The problem seems to be the d6+1 extra S7 shots more so than Laser Lock, if it's not actually scary anywhere else. Why not go to one of the many, many suggested nerfs to that instead of removing the Laser Lock rule that people don't seem to mind anywhere else?

To recap: suggestions that I've heard on the Serpent Shield are dropping the range to 12", making it a one-use S7/AP- flamer template, taking away jink the turn you fire it, and making it Heavy 1.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It's not so much Laser Lock, but the Scatter Laser/Serpent Shield Combo.

For example, I regularly run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance (and yes I know, statistically Dual Lance is better. Shut up). I've never heard a complaint about twin-linking the Bright Lances.

With Serpents, you get 4 Twin-linked shots (at BS4) at 36". With a single hit, you can get another D6+1 BS4 shots that are Twin-linked and ignore cover. If at 24", you'll get another 3 Twin-linked BS4 shots. 4-7 shots are Strength 6, with the remaining 2-7 cover ignoring shots are Strength 7.


With all that, remember Scatter Serpents cannot touch AV14 and are then forced to rely on other units to deal with it (like all the Bright Lances I enjoy running).

The problem seems to be the d6+1 extra S7 shots more so than Laser Lock, if it's not actually scary anywhere else. Why not go to one of the many, many suggested nerfs to that instead of removing the Laser Lock rule that people don't seem to mind anywhere else?

To recap: suggestions that I've heard on the Serpent Shield are dropping the range to 12", making it a one-use S7/AP- flamer template, taking away jink the turn you fire it, and making it Heavy 1.

You've obviously missed my suggestion.

Replace the second sentence with "In its Shooting phase, in lieu of firing any weapons, the Wave Serpent can "fire" the shield. If it does so, all units within 6" (friend and foe) immediately take a Pinning test."

Add that to the "to recap" bit above, then. Thank you for the expansion.

I've actually just amended my fix.

All units (friend or foe, but not including a unit that disembarked from the Serpent that turn) take a pinning test.

Additionally, the Serpent gains the Assault vehicle special rule the turn it uses the shield "offensively", but the disembarked unit can only declare a charge against a unit within 6" of the Serpent.

This change allows disembarking melee units such as Banshees and Scorpions a way to charge out of a Serpent.

 Happyjew wrote:
I've actually just amended my fix.

All units (friend or foe, but not including a unit that disembarked from the Serpent that turn) take a pinning test.

Additionally, the Serpent gains the Assault vehicle special rule the turn it uses the shield "offensively", but the disembarked unit can only declare a charge against a unit within 6" of the Serpent.

This change allows disembarking melee units such as Banshees and Scorpions a way to charge out of a Serpent.

Allowing Falcons as DT's will mean fewer WS on the board, if not by much since the only thing that could take them would be 5 DA and an IC (or3 WG if the unit minimum is still 3?). Raise the capacity to 12 and you might notice an actual shift. Allow Fire Prisms to be 12-DT and you will definitely see a change for the better.

Scorpions can already infiltrate/outflank so they don't need the serpent.

Banshees still suck even if they got a gunless DE raider for free. It just gives up an extra kill point, killing about half of them and the S3 T3 4+ guys who have no assault grenades still lose combat against any equal point unit not played by an idiot (aka thousand suns who have already fired overwatch and stand around in the open because of an idiot commander or an empty board). Give them assault grenades, furious charge, hit and run and a 4+ invulnerable from "acrobatic" like a vindicare gets and they might be worth taking for fun with a Wraithguard/scythe heavy list) nice counter charge options in there, if suboptimal.

There is no point in giving an AV10 (rear) vehicle a weapon with a 6" range, much less a friend or foe one. Just remove it and reduce the price of the serpent by whatever point value you think the gun portion is worth. Or remove the gun and glance portion if you think it's OP. But specify how many points you think a 12/10 AV is worth in the config you propose. There's even a thread for that very purpose.

I play "Spehhs MArinez!" and I don't have trouble with serpents. WraithKnights are the scary thing in that book. For everything else, there's a Drop Pod. Or Grav Cents and Raider. Or bikers. Or S4 AP5 bolters for that matter vs T3. The point is Marines have a LOT of tools to crush Eldar. Necron and AV 11 flyers, less so.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Isn't it time Morgorth came in and said how underpowered and weak Wave Serpents are and how he is an exceptional skilled player because despite this and all the other disadvantages of being an Elder player he can use them effectively to beat his opponents.

That's awfully high minded of you. Serpents aren't weak or underpowered, but they also have hard counters endemic to AV10 rear vehicles that are 7" long with a 12" move. It's called close combat and Krak grenades. If you cannot assault a serpent by T2, you are either running a gunline, a weak list or have poor board control and deployment skills. That doesn't mean assaulting it T2 is always the best choice, but if you can't even threaten it, of course you will get picked apart by someone who can perform a retrograde shooting action. Hell even fire warriors on the line will pick you apart in a longways deployment that way if all you can do is walk 6" and whine.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

Eliminate Laser Lock, and put Gets Hot on the Serpent Shield. The entire point of the shield is that overloading it is supposed to be a an emergency measure.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Eliminate Laser Lock, and put Gets Hot on the Serpent Shield. The entire point of the shield is that overloading it is supposed to be a an emergency measure.

Yes, but when has Fluff dictated anything in-game? >.>

 krodarklorr wrote:

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

Basically this.

It's not the rule itself, so much as the gun they chose to put it on.

Though, the stupid amount of fire power on the Wave Serpent probably doesn't help either.

 vipoid wrote:

Though, the stupid amount of fire power on the Wave Serpent probably doesn't help either.

That too. That could contribute a bit.

Whoah, are people DEFENDING the eldar codex? Seriously???

That entire thing is mostly shenanigans.

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely? Its job is too get its contents to their destination safely, meanwhile its doing more destruction than the offensive tanks. Oh boo hoo it can't deal with AV14. I'm sorry your transport can't kill a land raider, because that actually makes sense.

Army wide pseudo-rending is just ridiculous. Short ranged yes, but seeing that all your infantry move twice and still shoot somewhat mitigates that yes? Don't compare sniper scouts with avengers or guardians, higher bs with more shots and the ability to move trumps scouts so hard. The fact that people use scions for vehicle hunting and not MEQ tells you what they're good at.

And the Seerstar, even with 7th the sheer amount of firepower you have point at them is insane.

I spent most of my time just shaking my head when I read this Eldar codex for the first time.

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely?

Remember 5-th edition that everyone loves so much? Razorbacks shooting at Chimeras. Chimeras shooting at razorbacks. Repeat 5-7 times. Game ends.

 koooaei wrote:

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely?

Remember 5-th edition that everyone loves so much? Razorbacks shooting at Chimeras. Chimeras shooting at razorbacks. Repeat 5-7 times. Game ends.

So then, why do people say the game has improved?

 vipoid wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely?

Remember 5-th edition that everyone loves so much? Razorbacks shooting at Chimeras. Chimeras shooting at razorbacks. Repeat 5-7 times. Game ends.

So then, why do people say the game has improved?

Cause it's considered wrong now and it was a norm back than? I don't know Noone's saying it's a direct improvement. More like a different game with it's own goods and bads.

I agree the Serpent Shield needs toning down as a weapon, but disagree with everything else. I've never met anyone with a problem with bladestorm, but remember it's all coming from low toughness, lightly armoured units. I think some people have just been caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bladestorm has a 1 in 6 chance of going through decent armour. Return fire from those same targets will go straight through Guardians armour all the time, every turn, every game.

Very few people are defending the Wave Serpent itself. Not many people seem to think it's fair as is.

OP thinks that it'd help the game if it was never fired. I think that would be better than the current situation, but would go a little too far. I'd certainly accept it as an improvement.

Seer Council may not be entirely dead, but it is much weaker now. Invis can give many factions similar survivability to what the Seer Star had in 6th, but stacking multiple psyker buffs got a *lot* harder for anyone but Tiggy or Spell Familiars. Add to it that Eldar arent actually all that great at spamming WCs, and their good powers cost two, and you'll rarely get enough off to have more survivability than say, invis CSM bikers, and Warlock is 55 pts for 1w with 1 12" s9 ap- shot. I imagine they can do some things, but I don't see them as a major threat.

As for Battlefocus, ohnoes, Guardians do almost half as much damage to Marines as they do to guardians inside 12", and nothing outside 12. For 9ppm. Battle focus is good, but seriously, even naked Marines should have two salvos before Guardians can return fire. If the Guardians survive/hold.

As for Avengers, without Blade storm, Avenges do exactly as much damage to CSMs as CSMs do to Avengers. Assuming no cover. For the exact same number of points. But CSM destroy DAs in every other way, Blade storm or no:
-18"-24" naked
-24"+ either with a heavy weapon or by getting first salvo
-0-12 inches
-Melee
So, if CSM cost just as much as a DA, and DAs are kitted to be the specialized answer to MEQ, would it really fair that the best they could do is break even, provided they can start with and maintain 12-18"?

DAs have battlefocus. Helps to maintain 12-18". But even if they always ran 6", that would only close the range gap between a Boltgun and a Avenger Shurikat.

So DAs have:
-12-18" firepower superiority as is
-Battlefocus
-i5

CSM have:
-18"+
-0-12
-t4 3+
-s4
-Krak Grenades

I chose CSM because they're generally considered not great.

I chose naked because that's basically worst-case for CSM/best case for DAs.

Marines are supposed to be generalists. Better at choppy than the shooty boys, better at shooty than the choppy boys. Don't engage the enemy on their terms, and Marines win.

Furthermore, Marines can handle almost any threats stock, and most of their strength lies in the ability to take weapons and upgrades to take on nearly any role.

DAs are hyper specialized short range MEQ/elites hunters, with no options to be good at anything else. Can't do any more than glance AV10s, even.

As shown, however, Marines still win (per model or per point) against DAs in every matchup except 12"-18". Without Blade storm, they even lose there. While still being between substantially worse and useless against many other targets.

Shuriken cannons are in every way inferior to Assault Cannons. One less shot, one worse AP, and no rending versus vehicles, which is where Assault Cannons really shine. They are about as good as a heavy bolter. 12" shorter range, 1 worse base AP, for +1S plus occasional (less than once every other turn) pseudo rend against 2+/3+. Somewhere between a good sidegrade and a slight upgrade, IMO. It could be argued that they're too cheap, but Bladestorm certainly isn't the problem.

So what's so bad about Blade storm? It makes it so your MEQ don't auto-win against DAs? It might look strong, and is quite useful, but Eldar pay for it.

The people who are most vocal about Bladestorm are often the same ones who think Banshees and Rangers are OP because they can run around out shooting Marines with their 12" pistols then run out of range somehow.

I really don't think Bladestorm is a problem. Removing it certainly isn't a reasonable change.

It seems to me that nerfing the Serpent brings things in line. I'd like to see Jetbikes take a nerf too, and Wraithknights need to be watched, but the Eldar dex isn't that OP outside the Serpent.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
I agree the Serpent Shield needs toning down as a weapon, but disagree with everything else. I've never met anyone with a problem with bladestorm, but remember it's all coming from low toughness, lightly armoured units. I think some people have just been caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bladestorm has a 1 in 6 chance of going through decent armour. Return fire from those same targets will go straight through Guardians armour all the time, every turn, every game.

My main issue with it, as a Necron player, is the fact that almost EVERY gun Eldar have has a decent AP, or a chance at a decent AP, whereas Necrons are left in the dust of still short range guns, and almost no AP 3/2 in our book. And the fact that their troops can still ignore armor is ridiculous. Oh boy, you have to get close to shoot, whoop de do Basil. The fact that from 18" away, yes, 18" inch, you get 20 shots from 10 guys, with Bladestorm. It is ridiculous.

... And can't even glance a Rhino on front/side armor. 1/6 chance of ignoring an armor save, but no possible way to harm av11+.

Necron Warriors have a 1/6 chance of glancing a *land raider*. And any wound they inflict still has a 1/6 chance at bypassing even a 2+ armor save.

Marines can have 1 PG or MG in a 5man, and a combi as well. Among things like Krak.

So DAs pay MEQ prices for GEQ survivability, good manuverability, and a stronger but shorter range weapon. Don't Necron Warriors still beat them at 0-12", and probably marginally in melee too (t4 WBB vs slower I)?

Blade storm is probably better than having the option for PG/combiPG vs nonvehicles, but is a lot less versatile.

Bharring wrote:
... And can't even glance a Rhino on front/side armor. 1/6 chance of ignoring an armor save, but no possible way to harm av11+.

Necron Warriors have a 1/6 chance of glancing a *land raider*. And any wound they inflict still has a 1/6 chance at bypassing even a 2+ armor save.

Marines can have 1 PG or MG in a 5man, and a combi as well. Among things like Krak.

So DAs pay MEQ prices for GEQ survivability, good manuverability, and a stronger but shorter range weapon. Don't Necron Warriors still beat them at 0-12", and probably marginally in melee too (t4 WBB vs slower I)?

Blade storm is probably better than having the option for PG/combiPG vs nonvehicles, but is a lot less versatile.

I'm not saying Gauss is bad, no. I'm just saying that, sure we can kill a vehicles with ease. But as soon as you throw 2+ saves, or an MC, or an MC with a 2+ save, we have so little that can EFFECTIVELY deal with it. Deathmarks, sure, they come on and possibly kill something, then die. Eldar have things that pop vehicles *cough* entire squad of meltas *couch*, as well as MC killing things, skimmer killing things, high armor killing things, ext. Whereas, Necrons don't have things like that.

Yeah, Necrons have massive problems with MCs and armor saves. Which makes their options more frustrating for Necron players. But I think their options are mostly in line (aside from the Serpent) with Marines and others.

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, Necrons have massive problems with MCs and armor saves. Which makes their options more frustrating for Necron players. But I think their options are mostly in line (aside from the Serpent) with Marines and others.

I dunno, I still feel whenever Eldar have something similar to Space Marines, it's still directly better. Like, Eldar Missile Launchers. Also, I'd take Dark Reapers over Devastators any day.

So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

Oh, so because they CAN be beaten, means that the codex is completely fine? If that's the case, GW is amazing at balancing things. Sure seems right to me.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

Oh, so because they CAN be beaten, means that the codex is completely fine? If that's the case, GW is amazing at balancing things. Sure seems right to me.

No I think you're exaggerating things and discussing it is somewhat pointless.

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

Oh, so because they CAN be beaten, means that the codex is completely fine? If that's the case, GW is amazing at balancing things. Sure seems right to me.

No I think you're exaggerating things and discussing it is somewhat pointless.

Discussing it is completely pointless, but that's the point of forums, and this thread was to discuss the imbalance of Eldar and how we could fix it. I'm sorry that you come to forums and say that things are pointless to talk about.

Back on topic-
Missile Devs vs Starshot Dark Reapers
29 ppm + 14 ppu (Sarge) vs 38 ppm

Reapers have:
-Effective Relentless
-No Overwatch
-t3
-No grenades
-Cannot run
-No morale protection
-Ignore Jink
-s3 in melee

Devs have:
-t4
-Frag and Krak grenades
-Can Overwatch
-Can run
-Ablative wounds at 14ppm, which also have boltguns, and don't fold in melee
-decent melee
-not worried about morale (ATSKNF)
-Chapter Tactics (both UM and IF do great things for Devs)


For shooting, they're both s8 ap3 at 48".
Reapers also have Pinning and Ignore Jink
For lower S, 2xS5ap3 for Reapers or a small blast AP4 for devs.

Reapers are better per point shooting at things that jink.

Otherwise, if you need to move multiple rounds, Reapers > Devs
Otherwide, If you need to move one round, UM Devs > Reapers > other devs

If you out don't need to move, Devs > Reapers

If they take any decent amount of small arms fire, Devs > Reapers by a lot.

So Reapers outperform in a specific niche (toast jinking ground targets while not receiving returning fire), whereas Devs are better in far more situations.

Eldar warfare - especially Aspect Warriors - is all about hyper specialization, and the inability of its warriors to take substantial fire. Marines are all about being generalists that can adapt to whatever they need to do, even if they deployed with a different purpose.

Both units are better in different ways, and those ways mirror their faction's fluff and mechanics. Seems right to me.

EML vs Missile Launcher:
EML has pinning, and AP4 on it's blast version.

SM ML is 15 pts, can be added to any Marine unit 5+, or up to 4 in a Dev squad. Different points for different vehicles.

EML is 30 pts to add to a 10+ Guardian squad, cannot be added to any other Troops. Varies for heavier vehicles.

EML is strictly better, but costs more points. And is much more limited in where it can be fielded, and how concentrated it can be.

To show other examples:
ShuriKat vs Assault Cannon: AC has 1 more shot, 1 better AP, and actual-rending.

BL vs Lascannon:
BL has 12 less range
BL is +1 effective S vs av14, even vs av13, and -1s at AV12 and under

Armor:
Eldar front-line armor is 4+, elite armor is 3+
Marine front-line armor is 3+, elite armor is 2+

So no, Eldar isn't just simply better, whether or not you factor in points.

Well, I would be taking Dark Reapers with a Spirit seer (possible Shrouding) and a Farseer (Guide and possible Ignores Cover from Divination). Yeah, they might not be directly better against everything, but add in the synergy that they have with other units, and blam.

Tiggy can give the Devs 4++ and ignores cover for about the same odds, for about the same price. But he's more likely to be used elsewhere.

And Reapers + Psykers is basically a much more fragile CentStar.

You are already disregarding that Eldar can get a specific unit to do a specific job at a far cheaper cost than it takes for any other codex.

Effectively they are the most efficient per point, because when you buy them they have that ONE job, so when they do that job, compared to other factions they are so much better at it.

Anything the C:SM, C:CSM, or C:AM can do, the Eldar can do it more point efficently, ALWAYS faster.

You argue bladestorm is what is necessary for the Eldar to remain effective MEQ killers.

I suppose you won't mind not getting instawounding on it anymore? Rather just AP3?

Nothing like a Grey Knight player to see cheese in other people's codexes

 Quickjager wrote:

You are already disregarding that Eldar can get a specific unit to do a specific job at a far cheaper cost than it takes for any other codex.

I'm sure there are some T3 units that cost more than a dire avenger or guardian, but outside of Tempest Scions with AP3 on every shot, who get access to orders and cheap transports with firing points, I don't know of any off hand. Someone already did the CSM comparison and they completely left out the fact that Eldar don't get access to krak grenade equivalents on their troops.

 Quickjager wrote:

Effectively they are the most efficient per point, because when you buy them they have that ONE job, so when they do that job, compared to other factions they are so much better at it.

Yes, that's why everyone takes the Eldar Troops at maximum capacity of 20 guardians or 10 dire avengers per unit. Oh wait, almost no one does that (I did, I liked me some 20 man guardian blobs with double bright lance and a fast shot Avatar).

 Quickjager wrote:

Anything the C:SM, C:CSM, or C:AM can do, the Eldar can do it more point efficently, ALWAYS faster.

Really?
How many troop transport choices do the Eldar get at 35 points? How about 50? Because my SM get 3 with options for extra guns, dozer blades, multiple firing points and even a death wind missile launcher at that level.

How about using standard infantry troop choices to kill enemy tanks? Because my melta bomb toting sergeants have taken out landraiders, defilers and walkers, much less the krak grenades they all get standard.

How about not suffer instant death from a S6 gun on our main HQ? TFC and Shadow weavers alike murder T3 HQ. My poor IG opponent's HQ couldn't make it past T2 alive ever when I fielded either of those in pairs.

 Quickjager wrote:

You argue bladestorm is what is necessary for the Eldar to remain effective MEQ killers.

He was talking about Dire Avengers, aka the Eldar Tactical Space Marine. A whopping 1 point cheaper, but gives up 1 T, 1 S, a massive 3+ vs 4+ point of armour save, 6" on a gun (but assault vs rapid fire so ~same there), krak grenades, combat squads, chapter tactics and a hell of a lot more transport and deployment options. Also, no options for a heavy weapon in the squad, much less a heavy and special. In exchange for... AP2 on 1/6 of hits, 1/9 of shots.So instead of AP 5, they're a volailte AP 4+4/9, call it AP4.5.

 Quickjager wrote:

I suppose you won't mind not getting instawounding on it anymore? Rather just AP3?

Let me guess, your army is a GoI draigo, NDK and a FNP paladin 2+ deathstar, optionally with a NDKs.

Sure, make the terminators and NDK a 3+ and you have a houserule any Eldar player will play you with. Why push for a double nerf? You already need a 6 on the TO WOUND, not TO HIT to get the AP2 "autowound". Do you have T8/T9 in your list to worry about?

The Wave serpent is a great unit. If not for hull points it would be OP. As is, you just need to have a counter for it (ignores cover, close combat, or weight of fire to kill it with glances), just like you need a counter for flyers. Make any other vehicle int he book 20 points cheaper and they'll evaporate though. Do the point comparison between it and a Devilfish. The shield is costing the Eldar player a LOT of points.

The Eldar have tons of weaknesses for you to exploit if you face an ACTUAL list. But the internet argument is always against a tailored list. Facing monstrous creatures and landraiders? Suddenly war walkers have bright lances and are supported by firedragons. Unarmoured hordes? Suddenly it's scatter lasers and shuricannons. Everybody in your list causes fear? Then the Eldar HQ is suddenly an Avatar. The mental gymnastics in these "balancing debates" is impressive.

This sort of thinking leads to the Schrodinger's Wave Serpent - a vehicle with the perfect loadout, placed at the back edge of the board to protect AV10, yet somehow firing 14 AP2 shots at guys 48" away every round, carrying fire dragons when facing Landraiders and Banshees... well no one takes banshees when trying to win, but you get the point.

I ask that if you want to debate the "balance" of something, first find the fair V for that P before you call it OP. HEre's a nice link. It is fair and logical and reasonable, and therefore gets no attention
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614386.page

We'd need to substantially drop their price.

Boltgun hits kill 1/12 Tac termies.
Shurikat hits kill 1/6 Tac termies.
A boltgun hit kills 1 in 3 DAs.
A boltgun hit kills 1 in 6 Marines.
A shuriken hit kills 1 in 3 Marines.
(Assuming no cover).

Twice as good at killing naked tac termies in a shootout than Marines. Twice as easy for naked tac termites to kill in a shootout than Marines.

Looking at the numbers, what makes DAs a better counter to Termies than naked tac marines? And start throwing in just about any weapons upgrades, and things get really slanted really quickly.

Autowound only comes into play with t8+. Might not be necessary, but they'd need some other troop option.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

I ask again. If every complaint about the Scatter Laser has to reference its synergy with Serpent Shield instead of any other loadout on any other vehicle why nerf it instead of dialing back the Serpent Shield?

GK cheese.... yeaaaaa wasn't aware we were living in 2008 anymore. You still holding onto beanie babies while you're at that?

Rawr after everything you said, you still didn't refute anything. All you did was point out the "options" the SM codex has, the low toughness of your models (which I never said different).

Also I AM worried about dat instawound, how else will my Wraithknights live?

You're right! My list @ 1500 is

BroChamp
5-man Strike Squad-5 Falchions

Draigo
5-man Pally Squad-5 Falchions, 2 Psycannons

2 NDKs - fully loaded
5-man Interceptor Squad - 1 flamer, 1 hammer, 3 halberds, teleporter homer

SUCH A CHEESY LIST, IT MUST HAVE COME FROM A CHUCK E. CHEESE AMIRIGHT? Just lookit dat deathstar, it gets all da bitches down at Armageddon, M'kar the poor thing keeps comin' back for more each time. It's like you don't want the GK to win? It's like were dominating this edition right? Dude you can call a GK player MANY things, but cheese for taking the optimal list? The list that the codex writes itself (NSF)? Now if I doubled down on the formation to get 4 DKs....

I mean we all know how EVERY terminator is cost effective, CSM can attest to that. Meganobs and Ghazzy with his Bullyboyz are sweeping through everyone's list right?

I desist.

We were talking about Eldar, not the state of 2+ saves.

The Eldar codex comes down to three things
-Jetbikes for everyone (Same could be argued for Space Marines, I don't care I hate how bikes look)
-Wave Serpent (don't really need to talk much)
-MC abuse (I'm not touching this people get mad at me for not touching Purgation Squads)

Everything else is icing on the cake because they are all good units, it could be argued there is one dud in the codex (Banshees) and that's because they lack the ability to get into assault in a shooting game.

RAWRAIrobblerobble, I love you dude! I agree with EVERYTHING you said, GK players are so annoying, aren't they? I love how they think that its okay for them to spam dreadknights and abuse the ally system, yet they call out Eldar on EVERYTHING that they can do better than them.
"Ermagerd! You have ap2 options and I don't! Woe is me"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager, admit it, you are a cheesy player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you even said that its your optimal list, so why can't Eldar use their optimal list? Why the double standard?

Yeah, GKs have it rough for options. But do we really need to troll Robble?

Robble, I'm going to have to disagree with you about the Wave Serpent. That many mid-S shots, even with poor AP, is too much considering it's survivability. Add some Ignores Cover in there, and wow. It is a lot of points, and does have some weaknesses, but there is a reason its the hardcounter to fun *and* present in bulk in most top-10 lists.

QuickJ, let's take a look at how you play.
Skewed heavily for that 2+. Ready to make any massed boltgun cry. Looks very tech'ed against low-S high/decent AP. You're probably used to most troops outside special/heavy weapons being nearly useless against you.

Should things like the DK be able to shrug off almost all troop fire? I'm not a fan of anything like that moving fast and not being one Explodes result away from being dead. T6 2+/5++ with lots of wounds is just plain rough. Add mobility and killy to it (DK, Tide), and I'm not a huge fan. IKs and WKs are worse, IMO, though. WL should be fine, because its very slow, only has 3 wounds, and not a lot of dakka.

So let's look at the DK you're worried about.
1/6 boltgun hits wound. 1/6 bypass armor. 1/36 actually wound.
1/6 shuriken hits wound. 2/3 bypass armour. 1/9 actually wound.
For completeness, 1/2 Krak grenades wound, 1/6 bypass armour.

So 20 Shuriken shots get 20(2/3)(1/9) hits. 40/27ths, or less than 2 wounds. A dent, but by no means an effective threat to it.

20 boltgun shots is 20(2/3)(1/36) = 40/108. Less than half a wound. A naked Tac squad is unlikely to even dent it.

So Avengers can barely dent the thing, and Marines are unlikely to scratch it. Not a huge difference, but advantage - Avengers. Better gun on the squishier platform for the same points. Not seeing a problem here.

In melee, I'm going to assume a DK has WS4. Don't know the real value, but it affects both equally.

Avengers using their grenades hit 1/2, wound 1/6, bypass armor 1/6:
10(1/2)(1/6)(1/6): 10/72. Not gonna do squat.

Marines using Krak (assuming you're too cheap for a 5pt melts bomb) hit 1/2, wound 1/2, bypass 1/6:
10(1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 10/24. Might do something naked.

Neither is great, but Marines do much more in melee. Even naked. For the same points.

Either way, neither is going to stop a DK. But that's one of the reasons we almost never see naked Tacs.

So DAs do a little more to t6 2+5++ with shooting, but not enough to give pause to a DK or Tide, for the same cost as a naked CSM squad. They do less in melee, but neither do well there either.

DAs do double the damage to tac termies, but die twice as fast to their shooting, than Marines. The numbers are worse for DAs against Termies with SS or a 4+ cover.

DAs lose heavily to Marines in melee, at 0-12, and at 18+. DAs win at 12-18, but only because of Bladestorm. And by less than a 2:1 margin.

DAs lose to Marines against AV10-12, and tie against AV13+.

DAs lose to Marines for anything not both AP3- and S6+. Then they tie. They only win against Grav weaponry.

They do win against t8+. That's just Wraith MCs, Iron Arm demons, and Gargants. They don't do a lot to them, but they can inflict a wound or two. Remove bladestorm, and DAs lose this category to naked Marines.

Against GEQ, Shurikens do vanishingly little more than boltguns, shot-for-shot. Again, on a much squishier platform.

All in all, I really don't see DAs as outstripping Marines. For the same cost (13ppm).

Two substantial things to remember though:
-This was against *naked* tacs. Most people see Tacs as vehicles for special/heavy/seargent weapons. All of which make these numbers much better for Tacs, even when factoring in their price.
Second, this was compared to a CSM, not a loyalist. Generally considered a bad unit in a bad dex.

I'm really not seeing the problem?

The DK is far more broken than the wave serpent. Whilst the serpent has many mid-S shots, the DK can move 30" once a game which is ridiculous and moves 12" other times. They have awesome guns, they're psykers that can get a 4+ invulnerable save and destroys everything in combat with its 4/5 (depending on weapons) S10 attacks!

How is that not cheese?

 Quickjager wrote:
You are already disregarding that Eldar can get a specific unit to do a specific job at a far cheaper cost than it takes for any other codex.

That is also a downside to the units, they have only one specific job and cannot perform another role very well. Fire Dragons are great at taking out armour, but I have to pay over 100pts for a transport to get them any where near their target (ignoring allies). Once they have had one round of shooting they will get shredded by practically anything on the board. I'd love a nice 35pt transport that lands next to what I want to shoot at.

This has always been the case with Eldar though, not a new thing to this codex. I think the only thing that can posibbly be seen as OP is the amount of shots the serpent shield gets.

Reading the hate quickjagger has had against the wave serpent I'd just like to add my opinion. I'd much prefer to go against an eldar player with wave serpant spam and have them acknowledge it as cheese instead of a gk player (like yourself and many others) who dont see your own dk spam as cheese. At least eldar accept the serpant as op

In terms of Bladestorm, I don't know. Maybe I just haven't experienced it enough, but as far as I can recall it just never seemed to do much. Perhaps it was just overshadowed by other stuff. Don't get me wrong - it's a nice ability - it just doesn't strike me as particularly OP.

I wonder if people are more annoyed that they got it on top of all their other amazing rules? Kinda like the icing on a cake that already had icing.

Either way, it just doesn't strike me as an OP ability.


With regard to GKs, yeah, I find even two Dreadknights obnoxious to deal with. Their stupid durability, combined with a ludicrously cheap jump pack *and* teleporter (God forbid a tough model be slow) make them incredibly tedious to fight. Also, anyone who claims 7th fixed wound allocation obviously hasn't faced the delights of Draigo tanking wounds on a 2++ save.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

I ask again. If every complaint about the Scatter Laser has to reference its synergy with Serpent Shield instead of any other loadout on any other vehicle why nerf it instead of dialing back the Serpent Shield?

It is more obnoxious when combined with the Serpent Shield, butI, personally, still think it's stupidly cheap for a good amount of S6 shots at good range, half of the time Twin-linked because of what it's on, and ever on a Fire Prism or a Wraithknight, it's still WAY too good IMO. Also, as I've said, I think the Laser Lock rule is BS. Why make it happen if you get at least one hit? You're GOING to get one hit.

I find it obnoxious when people complain about the wave sepent's TL S6 shots but don't complain about TLDABLW on Tyrants/Carnifexen. They can have 12 TL shots! That's better than the wave serpent but you know what it isn't as good as? A Dreadknight!

SGTPozy wrote:
I find it obnoxious when people complain about the wave sepent's TL S6 shots but don't complain about TLDABLW on Tyrants/Carnifexen. They can have 12 TL shots! That's better than the wave serpent but you know what it isn't as good as? A Dreadknight!

Dakkafexes are good, don't get me wrong. But, it's the fact that they walk across the board, and have 18" range. That's the trade off with then. Plus, they're BS 3.

Indeed that is pretty obnoxious, but then again the dk is their only "viable option" you know because 12 force bolter shots, and a heavy psycannon is like firing tickles at the enemy

Woh people complain about the scatter lasers and blade storm?

Seriously?.

Honestly im fine with dakka fexes having 12 tl st6 shots as ironclads move up to make there acquaintance.

I had always though the number 1 issue with eldar where the serpants rediculus survivability or there insane damage output.

Im hoping GW just nerfs the shield into a much shorter range.

I don't understand all of the Eldar hate when everyone knows that GKs deserve all of our hate.

Then go start a GK thread.

As it so happens, this thread is about balancing the Eldar, of which there are issues to be balanced.

 Desubot wrote:
Woh people complain about the scatter lasers and blade storm?

Seriously?.

Honestly im fine with dakka fexes having 12 tl st6 shots as ironclads move up to make there acquaintance.

I had always though the number 1 issue with eldar where the serpants rediculus survivability or there insane damage output.

Presumably the above are issues 2 and 3 then.

 vipoid wrote:

Presumably the above are issues 2 and 3 then.

Well that true i guess though iv never EVER heard anyone complain about it before which is why im surprised

I'd much prefer to go against an eldar player with wave serpant spam and have them acknowledge it as cheese

This weekend at our local club gamer A asked gamer B:
A-Have you brought your Eldar Serpent spam once again?
B-No.
A-*shows signs of relief*
B-Today I'm playing Daemons and I'm gonna summon even MOAR SERPENT SPAM!!1!

All of us were laughing.

 Desubot wrote:
Woh people complain about the scatter lasers and blade storm?

Seriously?.

Honestly im fine with dakka fexes having 12 tl st6 shots as ironclads move up to make there acquaintance.

I had always though the number 1 issue with eldar where the serpants rediculus survivability or there insane damage output.

Im hoping GW just nerfs the shield into a much shorter range.

I just want Scatter Lasers to go up in price, even if they don't change anything. Laser lock aside, (which is still a bit much imo) it's 4 S6 shots at 36". And a lot of things can take them. So, like, come on man...

come on man what?

Necrons get a slowed amount of St7 shots at near the same distance in spades. unless we are talking about a sweeping change to all codexs then i dont think so.

Its not a balance issue ether.

The issue with the wave was the damn shield. being able to negate melta pens + jinking made it damn near impossible to kill as it flat outs away doing the zoidburg woop woop woop woop woop.

OR Hull pointing enemy tanks like no ones business with St7 ignore cover which is nearly the only defense vehicle have to survive. to top it off they are taken as DT so there slots dont even matter.

St6 is going to have a tough time killing vehicles and most things still get armor saves against it even at that range.

 Desubot wrote:
come on man what?

Necrons get a slowed amount of St7 shots at near the same distance in spades. unless we are talking about a sweeping change to all codexs then i dont think so.

Its not a balance issue ether.

The issue with the wave was the damn shield. being able to negate melta pens + jinking made it damn near impossible to kill as it flat outs away doing the zoidburg woop woop woop woop woop.

OR Hull pointing enemy tanks like no ones business with St7 ignore cover which is nearly the only defense vehicle have to survive. to top it off they are taken as DT so there slots dont even matter.

St6 is going to have a tough time killing vehicles and most things still get armor saves against it even at that range.

Our S7 is only 24", with Tesla, and that's it. And that's the only high S shooting we have, and it's on a non-fast skimmer.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Our S7 is only 24", with Tesla, and that's it. And that's the only high S shooting we have, and it's on a non-fast skimmer.

Or a insanely fast flying DT. ALL of which weapons are Twin linked already. Triarch stalkers also exist for higher ST, as well the dooooooooooom scythes and other things.


There is no good reason to nerf or points adjust Scatter lasers.

Much salt.

 krodarklorr wrote:

I just want Scatter Lasers to go up in price, even if they don't change anything. Laser lock aside, (which is still a bit much imo) it's 4 S6 shots at 36". And a lot of things can take them. So, like, come on man...

Do you think everything the Eldar have is undercosted? If not, how about the shuricannon and star cannon?

I find it helpful to honestly assess something by comparing it to other competitive options. I say competitive because you can compare any middling unit to either a great or terrible one and make it seem over/under costed as much as you want. IG Lord Commander's whining about the cost of their power sword for example, are not a productive comparison point.

Try to keep in mind that an IG Autocannon goes for just 10 points, for 2 S7 shots at AP4 with an extra 12" range. Eldar pay 20 points for the SL, but can only put it on a relatively pricey or fragile unit - ten T3 5+ save guardians for 110 with the gun, or ~200 for 3 of their AV10 walkers or ~150 on a HS tank (200 if you want to include the DAVU as a troop unit).

That said, how much do you think the SL should cost? I see it giving up the AP2 of a star cannon for an extremely limited twin-linkedness (the model needs to have two guns to benefit from it, so those guardians are SoL) and a pair of extra shots as reasonable.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the shield was supposed to be twinlinked at all, RAI, but that's another argument I'm not going to push. GW should have put out a clarification on that (and hundreds of other issues) but that's yet another threadjacking we don't need.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
St6 is going to have a tough time killing vehicles and most things still get armor saves against it even at that range.

Too bad the guns the Eldar can put on it are inevitably S6. The S7 is a 1d6+1 AP- and negates the pen protection that is the other half of the shield complaints. People always assume the serpent has it's butt to the edge, shield up when getting shot and yet somehow zipping 30" a turn in a single unobstructed move on planet bowling ball, never exposing AV10 to a charge or return fire and firing it's 24" gun. The WraithKnight is the scary thing in a competitive Eldar list, not the serpent. Properly deployed, 3 Grav Cents in a LR will wreck any serpent they want on the board in T2, and have a decent shot of taking out 2 with the sarg's split fire if they are not jinking. And that's without the land raider even shooting, much less what Tau, Necrn or flyers can do.

 Desubot wrote:
OR Hull pointing enemy tanks like no ones business with St7 ignore cover which is nearly the only defense vehicle have to survive. to top it off they are taken as DT so there slots dont even matter.

The DT slot thing I'll give you. Make them 75 points without the shield and make the 40 point shield upgrade have to come from a fast or heavy slot and we're square. But don't nix a ~40 point shield without dropping the point cost for the ONLY transport option they have.

 Desubot wrote:
The issue with the wave was the damn shield. being able to negate melta pens + jinking made it damn near impossible to kill as it flat outs away doing the zoidburg woop woop woop woop woop.

The model is huge. If you are playing on a board where it can go anywhere and be out of 6" move and 2d6=7" charge range on a 7" long model, that means your opponent has no fast moving troops, assault vehicles or redeployment options (Gate/T2 pods, etc) ANYWHERE within a 40" diameter bubble. He deserves to lose at that point. Much less for not having even a krak grenade to toss at your rear AV10 as you scuttle away...

 Sir Arun wrote:
Let's face it - the Eldar codex is currently the best in the entire 40k meta (crazy ally combinations and clever builds aside).

Did Grey Knights and Necrons stop existing? Or am I missing something?

Well GK got a bit trimmed and Necrons are still pants on head

I think what he meens by meta is the competitive meta where usually the top 10s are full of serpent spam and stuff.

@Raw: The point i was getting accross is that the SL isnt the issue about the sepeant, its the rest of it. Obviously the rear armor is the weakness but most players with working braincells that can spot a drop pod will obviously put rear into a LOS Blocker or the table edge and not shoot the shield unless they have too. and to add to that (IIRC) its a 3+ Jink save as a second line of defense. + if it isnt outright removed the guys inside can generally handle most drop cargo + the serpent can join in if need be.

My personal prefrence would just be to nerf the range on it to like 12-18" and call it a day. The thing shouldn't be 60"

The only loss the GK took was in the cash price to buy their rules. That's a legit ripoff, but buying the special edition of codexes doesn't give you a ML1 across the board, so tell it to GW, not Dakka - the points per model for the gear and stat is still tops, no matter how much they want to whine about having to rely on 35 point Psyker terminators instead of force weapon psyker troops or "Wah, my 2+ save 30" shunting psyker MC only has a heavy torrent flamer, it should be AP2 D3 wounds". Cry the Eldar a T3 river.

 Desubot wrote:

@Raw: The point i was getting accross is that the SL isnt the issue about the sepeant, its the rest of it. Obviously the rear armor is the weakness but most players with working braincells that can spot a drop pod will obviously put rear into a LOS Blocker or the table edge and not shoot the shield unless they have too. and to add to that (IIRC) its a 3+ Jink save as a second line of defense. + if it isnt outright removed the guys inside can generally handle most drop cargo + the serpent can join in if need be.

My personal prefrence would just be to nerf the range on it to like 12-18" and call it a day. The thing shouldn't be 60"

WraithKnights, yeah they're a bit much, but that's a MC issue, not an Eldar specific (and theirs is only a 3+, unlike a certain other pair of MC....)


Who is firing it out of scatter laser range anyway? It needs to be in 24" range to get the firepower people always assume it has and then the AV10 is a tremendous factor. The model is 7" long. Even if it is butt to the back edge, drop an ironclad pod in front of it and then either walk forward if you are scattered away or walk back to block it's movement and if the shield is still up. You still get a S8 pot shot without the metla rule. I've had a heavy flamer explode a defiler' rear AV10 and the serpent can't hit back when you get that close.

1" from each model means you get a ~5" bubble around the ironclad, a 6" bubble around the pod and a 7" null bubble between them. Given the model is 7" long, even if it goes nose to 1" nose from you in the movement phase, it can't even flat out 18" over you and your pod. You will either force them to flat out and give you a free S8 shot the next round, still be in charge range or take your melta s8 to the face if they can't drop yoru AV13 with a 1+d6 S7 AP- shot and give up their shield before you melta them and then charge.


WWSWSWS------IIICC------DDDPPPX (pod scatters away)
WWSWSWSDDDPPPX------IIICC (pod scatters toward WS)

These are not the only units on the board, so some of the serpent spam is getting logjammed somewhere and your pod deployment determines which ones get stuck. You dictate that, not the serpent player. Toss a a couple combat squaded pods behind them and there's no where for them to run to at all. Also, try playing with actual line of sight blocking terrain. You should not be able to see all the other 3 corners of the board from any corner. Pretend your hills are 3" high if you are using grey felt cutouts or whatever.

Granted not everyone has "who cares about S6 guns" ironclads, but Tau have IC HYMP and IA, IM has tons of stuff (no one takes it because Battle Cannon = moar fun!!). If your complaint is that your codex sucks, suggest improvements for it. But make them reasonable. I love Chapter Tactics on My Spae MArines, that's why I switched. Eldar can't play a slugfest game, a CC game (Wraith are too slow) or an air superiority game (AV10 front sucks). But Space Marines? They can do anything and are EXACTLY what a codex should be. The Eldar need craftworlds or "path of" chapter tactics equivalent, so does everyone else other than GK and Sisters, because, frankly, they can just use their models and the SM codex and they're covered.

So you are seriously saying a Wave Serpent is a fair and balanced unit in the game?

Seriously?

Seriously?

Seriously?

Its too good for the many and varied reasons that I and other ELDAR players have confirmed in so many other pages, threads, forums etc.

If your complaint is that your codex sucks, suggest improvements for it. But make them reasonable

been there done that, wrote a fandex - soooo how many pick up games against Mr Cheese Serpent spam does that get to play against then?

Don't be a Morgorth - admit the problem exists

are you kidding....i love how everyone sees the eldar as being overpowered.....to those of you who believe this, you should learn to build better armies.......

there is nothing in the eldar codex that is overpowered....as a matter of fact the eldar codex contains a bunch of crap units....

i play with one of the best eldar players i have ever seen, and he doesnt use the serpents, as a matter of fact he laughs at people who complain about serpents....

talk about being overpowered have you looked at the imperial armies.... have you actually looked at the rules with allies and battle brothers..... do you understand that marnies can get into chimeras.... or units that cant usually get into drop pods, now they can with the new ally rules....before you start talking about an army being overpowered, you should actually play with some compentant players.....

Varnos wrote:
are you kidding....i love how everyone sees the eldar as being overpowered.....to those of you who believe this, you should learn to build better armies.......

Ah, the 'L2P' argument. Clearly everyone who thinks things like wave serpents are overpowered only think so because they suck, right?

there is nothing in the eldar codex that is overpowered....as a matter of fact the eldar codex contains a bunch of crap units....

Yeah, so you genuinely, truly, and honestly think the Wave Serpent is fine?

No one is arguing there are some lemons in the Eldar codex; balance means to fix things that are broken, for better or for worse.

i play with one of the best eldar players i have ever seen, and he doesnt use the serpents, as a matter of fact he laughs at people who complain about serpents....

Oh look, anecdotal evidence presented as fact! So you know this one guy, who you happen to think is the best, laughs at people who think serpents are really good. Tell me how that is any way an argument for the strength of serpents?

talk about being overpowered have you looked at the imperial armies.... have you actually looked at the rules with allies and battle brothers..... do you understand that marnies can get into chimeras.... or units that cant usually get into drop pods, now they can with the new ally rules....before you start talking about an army being overpowered, you should actually play with some compentant players.....

And this has relevance to the balance issues in the Eldar codex...how?

In summary, your entire post is a childish 'L2P' argument backed up by a gakky anecdote about one player you know, summarized by a conclusion about armies this thread isn't about.

2/10.

Try presenting some arguments about why you think units in the book aren't balanced. Try presenting solutions. Try explaining using math and comparisons and roles.

*Edit* Try using the shift key and/or caps locks. A sentence begins with a capitalized letter and ends with a single period, not an ellipse.

Varnos wrote:
are you kidding....i love how everyone sees the eldar as being overpowered.....to those of you who believe this, you should learn to build better armies.......

there is nothing in the eldar codex that is overpowered....as a matter of fact the eldar codex contains a bunch of crap units....

i play with one of the best eldar players i have ever seen, and he doesnt use the serpents, as a matter of fact he laughs at people who complain about serpents....

talk about being overpowered have you looked at the imperial armies.... have you actually looked at the rules with allies and battle brothers..... do you understand that marnies can get into chimeras.... or units that cant usually get into drop pods, now they can with the new ally rules....before you start talking about an army being overpowered, you should actually play with some compentant players.....

I think Morgorth has made a new account.

Varnos wrote:
are you kidding....i love how everyone sees the eldar as being overpowered.....to those of you who believe this, you should learn to build better armies.......

there is nothing in the eldar codex that is overpowered....as a matter of fact the eldar codex contains a bunch of crap units....

i play with one of the best eldar players i have ever seen, and he doesnt use the serpents, as a matter of fact he laughs at people who complain about serpents....

talk about being overpowered have you looked at the imperial armies.... have you actually looked at the rules with allies and battle brothers..... do you understand that marnies can get into chimeras.... or units that cant usually get into drop pods, now they can with the new ally rules....before you start talking about an army being overpowered, you should actually play with some compentant players.....

Must be nice to be such an awesome player.................I am overcome with awe and envy.......... oh wait thats all wrong.

Did you even read the bit that said I AM A ELDAR player - guess not

 Sir Arun wrote:
Let's face it - the Eldar codex is currently the best in the entire 40k meta (crazy ally combinations and clever builds aside). So in order to no longer get called cheese and beardy, I've devised five simple things an Eldar player who is sick and tired of developing a guilty conscience every time he brings his army on the table, could do:

1) Dont use the offensive power of the serpent shield

2) Ignore the laserlock special rule on his scatterlasers

3) Pretend his shuriken catapults and shuriken cannons do not have bladestorm (make an exception for the Dire Avengers who after all lost their actual bladestorm power from previous codex and thus deserve it)

4) Do not field more than 1 Wraithknight

5) Do not ally with Dark Eldar, or if you do, do it for modelling reasons and not to abuse their webway portal to DS your toughest stuff.

...if an Eldar player observed these 5 house rules, would you say Eldar are a fair and balanced army and no longer deserve to be hissed at?

no. Just no.

C'mon guys, don't bully Varnos just because he has a different opinion to you.

SGTPozy wrote:
C'mon guys, don't bully Varnos just because he has a different opinion to you.

It's not just about having a different opinion, it's about how you go about expressing that opinion.

SGTPozy wrote:
C'mon guys, don't bully Varnos just because he has a different opinion to you.

We're bullying him because he thinks he's right and anyone who disagrees with him must not have read the rules.

SGTPozy wrote:
C'mon guys, don't bully Varnos just because he has a different opinion to you.

It has nothing to do with having a different opinion.

It has everything to do with how one backs that opinion and presents themselves.

Walking into a thread and starting off with nothing but condescension and an extremely useless 'learn to play n00b' attitude backed by nothing more than a gakky anecdote is going to be met equally with dismissal.

Its great to have an opinion on something, but you have to at least make an attempt at an effort to back it up with something.