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Hi its a good suggestion and similar to that which we have implemented (with other things) in our Apocalypse games and for friendly games.

For Eldar:
We have the Serpent Shield as one shot and flamer template
Howling Banshees can assault out of any vehicle
Falcons are Dedicated Transports for all units that can have Serpents

We hadn't looked at changing Bladestorm tbh

. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

We see it as trying to achieve some degree of balance that GW singularly failed to achieve and apparently have no interest in looking at after the fact. Broken lists don't help test a persons skill or indeed anyone have fun except of course the most WAAC gamers.

Isn't it time Morgorth came in and said how underpowered and weak Wave Serpents are and how he is an exceptional skilled player because despite this and all the other disadvantages of being an Elder player he can use them effectively to beat his opponents.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Isn't it time Morgorth came in and said how underpowered and weak Wave Serpents are and how he is an exceptional skilled player because despite this and all the other disadvantages of being an Elder player he can use them effectively to beat his opponents.

Naw, he usually stays away from Proposed rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
It's not so much Laser Lock, but the Scatter Laser/Serpent Shield Combo.

For example, I regularly run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance (and yes I know, statistically Dual Lance is better. Shut up). I've never heard a complaint about twin-linking the Bright Lances.

With Serpents, you get 4 Twin-linked shots (at BS4) at 36". With a single hit, you can get another D6+1 BS4 shots that are Twin-linked and ignore cover. If at 24", you'll get another 3 Twin-linked BS4 shots. 4-7 shots are Strength 6, with the remaining 2-7 cover ignoring shots are Strength 7.


With all that, remember Scatter Serpents cannot touch AV14 and are then forced to rely on other units to deal with it (like all the Bright Lances I enjoy running).

The problem seems to be the d6+1 extra S7 shots more so than Laser Lock, if it's not actually scary anywhere else. Why not go to one of the many, many suggested nerfs to that instead of removing the Laser Lock rule that people don't seem to mind anywhere else?

To recap: suggestions that I've heard on the Serpent Shield are dropping the range to 12", making it a one-use S7/AP- flamer template, taking away jink the turn you fire it, and making it Heavy 1.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It's not so much Laser Lock, but the Scatter Laser/Serpent Shield Combo.

For example, I regularly run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance (and yes I know, statistically Dual Lance is better. Shut up). I've never heard a complaint about twin-linking the Bright Lances.

With Serpents, you get 4 Twin-linked shots (at BS4) at 36". With a single hit, you can get another D6+1 BS4 shots that are Twin-linked and ignore cover. If at 24", you'll get another 3 Twin-linked BS4 shots. 4-7 shots are Strength 6, with the remaining 2-7 cover ignoring shots are Strength 7.


With all that, remember Scatter Serpents cannot touch AV14 and are then forced to rely on other units to deal with it (like all the Bright Lances I enjoy running).

The problem seems to be the d6+1 extra S7 shots more so than Laser Lock, if it's not actually scary anywhere else. Why not go to one of the many, many suggested nerfs to that instead of removing the Laser Lock rule that people don't seem to mind anywhere else?

To recap: suggestions that I've heard on the Serpent Shield are dropping the range to 12", making it a one-use S7/AP- flamer template, taking away jink the turn you fire it, and making it Heavy 1.

You've obviously missed my suggestion.

Replace the second sentence with "In its Shooting phase, in lieu of firing any weapons, the Wave Serpent can "fire" the shield. If it does so, all units within 6" (friend and foe) immediately take a Pinning test."

Add that to the "to recap" bit above, then. Thank you for the expansion.

I've actually just amended my fix.

All units (friend or foe, but not including a unit that disembarked from the Serpent that turn) take a pinning test.

Additionally, the Serpent gains the Assault vehicle special rule the turn it uses the shield "offensively", but the disembarked unit can only declare a charge against a unit within 6" of the Serpent.

This change allows disembarking melee units such as Banshees and Scorpions a way to charge out of a Serpent.

 Happyjew wrote:
I've actually just amended my fix.

All units (friend or foe, but not including a unit that disembarked from the Serpent that turn) take a pinning test.

Additionally, the Serpent gains the Assault vehicle special rule the turn it uses the shield "offensively", but the disembarked unit can only declare a charge against a unit within 6" of the Serpent.

This change allows disembarking melee units such as Banshees and Scorpions a way to charge out of a Serpent.

Allowing Falcons as DT's will mean fewer WS on the board, if not by much since the only thing that could take them would be 5 DA and an IC (or3 WG if the unit minimum is still 3?). Raise the capacity to 12 and you might notice an actual shift. Allow Fire Prisms to be 12-DT and you will definitely see a change for the better.

Scorpions can already infiltrate/outflank so they don't need the serpent.

Banshees still suck even if they got a gunless DE raider for free. It just gives up an extra kill point, killing about half of them and the S3 T3 4+ guys who have no assault grenades still lose combat against any equal point unit not played by an idiot (aka thousand suns who have already fired overwatch and stand around in the open because of an idiot commander or an empty board). Give them assault grenades, furious charge, hit and run and a 4+ invulnerable from "acrobatic" like a vindicare gets and they might be worth taking for fun with a Wraithguard/scythe heavy list) nice counter charge options in there, if suboptimal.

There is no point in giving an AV10 (rear) vehicle a weapon with a 6" range, much less a friend or foe one. Just remove it and reduce the price of the serpent by whatever point value you think the gun portion is worth. Or remove the gun and glance portion if you think it's OP. But specify how many points you think a 12/10 AV is worth in the config you propose. There's even a thread for that very purpose.

I play "Spehhs MArinez!" and I don't have trouble with serpents. WraithKnights are the scary thing in that book. For everything else, there's a Drop Pod. Or Grav Cents and Raider. Or bikers. Or S4 AP5 bolters for that matter vs T3. The point is Marines have a LOT of tools to crush Eldar. Necron and AV 11 flyers, less so.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Isn't it time Morgorth came in and said how underpowered and weak Wave Serpents are and how he is an exceptional skilled player because despite this and all the other disadvantages of being an Elder player he can use them effectively to beat his opponents.

That's awfully high minded of you. Serpents aren't weak or underpowered, but they also have hard counters endemic to AV10 rear vehicles that are 7" long with a 12" move. It's called close combat and Krak grenades. If you cannot assault a serpent by T2, you are either running a gunline, a weak list or have poor board control and deployment skills. That doesn't mean assaulting it T2 is always the best choice, but if you can't even threaten it, of course you will get picked apart by someone who can perform a retrograde shooting action. Hell even fire warriors on the line will pick you apart in a longways deployment that way if all you can do is walk 6" and whine.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

Eliminate Laser Lock, and put Gets Hot on the Serpent Shield. The entire point of the shield is that overloading it is supposed to be a an emergency measure.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Eliminate Laser Lock, and put Gets Hot on the Serpent Shield. The entire point of the shield is that overloading it is supposed to be a an emergency measure.

Yes, but when has Fluff dictated anything in-game? >.>

 krodarklorr wrote:

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

Basically this.

It's not the rule itself, so much as the gun they chose to put it on.

Though, the stupid amount of fire power on the Wave Serpent probably doesn't help either.

 vipoid wrote:

Though, the stupid amount of fire power on the Wave Serpent probably doesn't help either.

That too. That could contribute a bit.

Whoah, are people DEFENDING the eldar codex? Seriously???

That entire thing is mostly shenanigans.

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely? Its job is too get its contents to their destination safely, meanwhile its doing more destruction than the offensive tanks. Oh boo hoo it can't deal with AV14. I'm sorry your transport can't kill a land raider, because that actually makes sense.

Army wide pseudo-rending is just ridiculous. Short ranged yes, but seeing that all your infantry move twice and still shoot somewhat mitigates that yes? Don't compare sniper scouts with avengers or guardians, higher bs with more shots and the ability to move trumps scouts so hard. The fact that people use scions for vehicle hunting and not MEQ tells you what they're good at.

And the Seerstar, even with 7th the sheer amount of firepower you have point at them is insane.

I spent most of my time just shaking my head when I read this Eldar codex for the first time.

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely?

Remember 5-th edition that everyone loves so much? Razorbacks shooting at Chimeras. Chimeras shooting at razorbacks. Repeat 5-7 times. Game ends.

 koooaei wrote:

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely?

Remember 5-th edition that everyone loves so much? Razorbacks shooting at Chimeras. Chimeras shooting at razorbacks. Repeat 5-7 times. Game ends.

So then, why do people say the game has improved?

 vipoid wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:

Spamming a TROOP TRANSPORT being one of the best builds in the game should tell you something surely?

Remember 5-th edition that everyone loves so much? Razorbacks shooting at Chimeras. Chimeras shooting at razorbacks. Repeat 5-7 times. Game ends.

So then, why do people say the game has improved?

Cause it's considered wrong now and it was a norm back than? I don't know Noone's saying it's a direct improvement. More like a different game with it's own goods and bads.

I agree the Serpent Shield needs toning down as a weapon, but disagree with everything else. I've never met anyone with a problem with bladestorm, but remember it's all coming from low toughness, lightly armoured units. I think some people have just been caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bladestorm has a 1 in 6 chance of going through decent armour. Return fire from those same targets will go straight through Guardians armour all the time, every turn, every game.

Very few people are defending the Wave Serpent itself. Not many people seem to think it's fair as is.

OP thinks that it'd help the game if it was never fired. I think that would be better than the current situation, but would go a little too far. I'd certainly accept it as an improvement.

Seer Council may not be entirely dead, but it is much weaker now. Invis can give many factions similar survivability to what the Seer Star had in 6th, but stacking multiple psyker buffs got a *lot* harder for anyone but Tiggy or Spell Familiars. Add to it that Eldar arent actually all that great at spamming WCs, and their good powers cost two, and you'll rarely get enough off to have more survivability than say, invis CSM bikers, and Warlock is 55 pts for 1w with 1 12" s9 ap- shot. I imagine they can do some things, but I don't see them as a major threat.

As for Battlefocus, ohnoes, Guardians do almost half as much damage to Marines as they do to guardians inside 12", and nothing outside 12. For 9ppm. Battle focus is good, but seriously, even naked Marines should have two salvos before Guardians can return fire. If the Guardians survive/hold.

As for Avengers, without Blade storm, Avenges do exactly as much damage to CSMs as CSMs do to Avengers. Assuming no cover. For the exact same number of points. But CSM destroy DAs in every other way, Blade storm or no:
-18"-24" naked
-24"+ either with a heavy weapon or by getting first salvo
-0-12 inches
-Melee
So, if CSM cost just as much as a DA, and DAs are kitted to be the specialized answer to MEQ, would it really fair that the best they could do is break even, provided they can start with and maintain 12-18"?

DAs have battlefocus. Helps to maintain 12-18". But even if they always ran 6", that would only close the range gap between a Boltgun and a Avenger Shurikat.

So DAs have:
-12-18" firepower superiority as is
-Battlefocus
-i5

CSM have:
-18"+
-0-12
-t4 3+
-s4
-Krak Grenades

I chose CSM because they're generally considered not great.

I chose naked because that's basically worst-case for CSM/best case for DAs.

Marines are supposed to be generalists. Better at choppy than the shooty boys, better at shooty than the choppy boys. Don't engage the enemy on their terms, and Marines win.

Furthermore, Marines can handle almost any threats stock, and most of their strength lies in the ability to take weapons and upgrades to take on nearly any role.

DAs are hyper specialized short range MEQ/elites hunters, with no options to be good at anything else. Can't do any more than glance AV10s, even.

As shown, however, Marines still win (per model or per point) against DAs in every matchup except 12"-18". Without Blade storm, they even lose there. While still being between substantially worse and useless against many other targets.

Shuriken cannons are in every way inferior to Assault Cannons. One less shot, one worse AP, and no rending versus vehicles, which is where Assault Cannons really shine. They are about as good as a heavy bolter. 12" shorter range, 1 worse base AP, for +1S plus occasional (less than once every other turn) pseudo rend against 2+/3+. Somewhere between a good sidegrade and a slight upgrade, IMO. It could be argued that they're too cheap, but Bladestorm certainly isn't the problem.

So what's so bad about Blade storm? It makes it so your MEQ don't auto-win against DAs? It might look strong, and is quite useful, but Eldar pay for it.

The people who are most vocal about Bladestorm are often the same ones who think Banshees and Rangers are OP because they can run around out shooting Marines with their 12" pistols then run out of range somehow.

I really don't think Bladestorm is a problem. Removing it certainly isn't a reasonable change.

It seems to me that nerfing the Serpent brings things in line. I'd like to see Jetbikes take a nerf too, and Wraithknights need to be watched, but the Eldar dex isn't that OP outside the Serpent.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
I agree the Serpent Shield needs toning down as a weapon, but disagree with everything else. I've never met anyone with a problem with bladestorm, but remember it's all coming from low toughness, lightly armoured units. I think some people have just been caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bladestorm has a 1 in 6 chance of going through decent armour. Return fire from those same targets will go straight through Guardians armour all the time, every turn, every game.

My main issue with it, as a Necron player, is the fact that almost EVERY gun Eldar have has a decent AP, or a chance at a decent AP, whereas Necrons are left in the dust of still short range guns, and almost no AP 3/2 in our book. And the fact that their troops can still ignore armor is ridiculous. Oh boy, you have to get close to shoot, whoop de do Basil. The fact that from 18" away, yes, 18" inch, you get 20 shots from 10 guys, with Bladestorm. It is ridiculous.

... And can't even glance a Rhino on front/side armor. 1/6 chance of ignoring an armor save, but no possible way to harm av11+.

Necron Warriors have a 1/6 chance of glancing a *land raider*. And any wound they inflict still has a 1/6 chance at bypassing even a 2+ armor save.

Marines can have 1 PG or MG in a 5man, and a combi as well. Among things like Krak.

So DAs pay MEQ prices for GEQ survivability, good manuverability, and a stronger but shorter range weapon. Don't Necron Warriors still beat them at 0-12", and probably marginally in melee too (t4 WBB vs slower I)?

Blade storm is probably better than having the option for PG/combiPG vs nonvehicles, but is a lot less versatile.

Bharring wrote:
... And can't even glance a Rhino on front/side armor. 1/6 chance of ignoring an armor save, but no possible way to harm av11+.

Necron Warriors have a 1/6 chance of glancing a *land raider*. And any wound they inflict still has a 1/6 chance at bypassing even a 2+ armor save.

Marines can have 1 PG or MG in a 5man, and a combi as well. Among things like Krak.

So DAs pay MEQ prices for GEQ survivability, good manuverability, and a stronger but shorter range weapon. Don't Necron Warriors still beat them at 0-12", and probably marginally in melee too (t4 WBB vs slower I)?

Blade storm is probably better than having the option for PG/combiPG vs nonvehicles, but is a lot less versatile.

I'm not saying Gauss is bad, no. I'm just saying that, sure we can kill a vehicles with ease. But as soon as you throw 2+ saves, or an MC, or an MC with a 2+ save, we have so little that can EFFECTIVELY deal with it. Deathmarks, sure, they come on and possibly kill something, then die. Eldar have things that pop vehicles *cough* entire squad of meltas *couch*, as well as MC killing things, skimmer killing things, high armor killing things, ext. Whereas, Necrons don't have things like that.

Yeah, Necrons have massive problems with MCs and armor saves. Which makes their options more frustrating for Necron players. But I think their options are mostly in line (aside from the Serpent) with Marines and others.

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, Necrons have massive problems with MCs and armor saves. Which makes their options more frustrating for Necron players. But I think their options are mostly in line (aside from the Serpent) with Marines and others.

I dunno, I still feel whenever Eldar have something similar to Space Marines, it's still directly better. Like, Eldar Missile Launchers. Also, I'd take Dark Reapers over Devastators any day.

So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

Oh, so because they CAN be beaten, means that the codex is completely fine? If that's the case, GW is amazing at balancing things. Sure seems right to me.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

Oh, so because they CAN be beaten, means that the codex is completely fine? If that's the case, GW is amazing at balancing things. Sure seems right to me.

No I think you're exaggerating things and discussing it is somewhat pointless.

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:
So you're annoyed Necrons aren't the Eldar?

Well, I'm annoyed with Necrons recently in general. But that's not what this argument is about. My argument is that Eldar have an obnoxiously good book, regardless of if they're playing for fun or not.

If it was as good as you seem to think it would be impossible for them to lose. Which it isn't.

Oh, so because they CAN be beaten, means that the codex is completely fine? If that's the case, GW is amazing at balancing things. Sure seems right to me.

No I think you're exaggerating things and discussing it is somewhat pointless.

Discussing it is completely pointless, but that's the point of forums, and this thread was to discuss the imbalance of Eldar and how we could fix it. I'm sorry that you come to forums and say that things are pointless to talk about.

Back on topic-
Missile Devs vs Starshot Dark Reapers
29 ppm + 14 ppu (Sarge) vs 38 ppm

Reapers have:
-Effective Relentless
-No Overwatch
-t3
-No grenades
-Cannot run
-No morale protection
-Ignore Jink
-s3 in melee

Devs have:
-t4
-Frag and Krak grenades
-Can Overwatch
-Can run
-Ablative wounds at 14ppm, which also have boltguns, and don't fold in melee
-decent melee
-not worried about morale (ATSKNF)
-Chapter Tactics (both UM and IF do great things for Devs)


For shooting, they're both s8 ap3 at 48".
Reapers also have Pinning and Ignore Jink
For lower S, 2xS5ap3 for Reapers or a small blast AP4 for devs.

Reapers are better per point shooting at things that jink.

Otherwise, if you need to move multiple rounds, Reapers > Devs
Otherwide, If you need to move one round, UM Devs > Reapers > other devs

If you out don't need to move, Devs > Reapers

If they take any decent amount of small arms fire, Devs > Reapers by a lot.

So Reapers outperform in a specific niche (toast jinking ground targets while not receiving returning fire), whereas Devs are better in far more situations.

Eldar warfare - especially Aspect Warriors - is all about hyper specialization, and the inability of its warriors to take substantial fire. Marines are all about being generalists that can adapt to whatever they need to do, even if they deployed with a different purpose.

Both units are better in different ways, and those ways mirror their faction's fluff and mechanics. Seems right to me.

EML vs Missile Launcher:
EML has pinning, and AP4 on it's blast version.

SM ML is 15 pts, can be added to any Marine unit 5+, or up to 4 in a Dev squad. Different points for different vehicles.

EML is 30 pts to add to a 10+ Guardian squad, cannot be added to any other Troops. Varies for heavier vehicles.

EML is strictly better, but costs more points. And is much more limited in where it can be fielded, and how concentrated it can be.

To show other examples:
ShuriKat vs Assault Cannon: AC has 1 more shot, 1 better AP, and actual-rending.

BL vs Lascannon:
BL has 12 less range
BL is +1 effective S vs av14, even vs av13, and -1s at AV12 and under

Armor:
Eldar front-line armor is 4+, elite armor is 3+
Marine front-line armor is 3+, elite armor is 2+

So no, Eldar isn't just simply better, whether or not you factor in points.