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Let's face it - the Eldar codex is currently the best in the entire 40k meta (crazy ally combinations and clever builds aside). So in order to no longer get called cheese and beardy, I've devised five simple things an Eldar player who is sick and tired of developing a guilty conscience every time he brings his army on the table, could do:

1) Dont use the offensive power of the serpent shield

2) Ignore the laserlock special rule on his scatterlasers

3) Pretend his shuriken catapults and shuriken cannons do not have bladestorm (make an exception for the Dire Avengers who after all lost their actual bladestorm power from previous codex and thus deserve it)

4) Do not field more than 1 Wraithknight

5) Do not ally with Dark Eldar, or if you do, do it for modelling reasons and not to abuse their webway portal to DS your toughest stuff.

...if an Eldar player observed these 5 house rules, would you say Eldar are a fair and balanced army and no longer deserve to be hissed at?

I mean, arguably. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

... And 'nids will hiss at anything...

(Sorry)

 Dannyrulx wrote:
... And 'nids will hiss at anything...

(Sorry)

Wait, I'm not understanding here. Are you saying that I hiss at Eldar because I play nids? Or because you play nids? I'm lost.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, arguably. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

Dont really agree with this train of thought.

I am happy if a Tau player doesnt bring a Triptide in his armylist though he very well could. I wouldnt consider that handicapping himself.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, arguably. they could still be hissed at because they're simply handicapping themselves, which in itself is a slap to the face of the opponent.

Dont really agree with this train of thought.

I am happy if a Tau player doesnt bring a Triptide in his armylist though he very well could. I wouldnt consider that handicapping himself.

Well, there's a difference between not spamming and limitling Rules. I could NOT bring 6+ Night Scythes and that would be fair. But the minute I have to not use the Tesla rule because it's too good, there's a problem.

It's the fact that even without Laser Lock, even with only 1 Wraithknight, even without Bladestorm, Eldar have an obnoxious amount of good options, and the Wave Serpent, Wraithknight, ext would still be just as lethal. 60" S7 Ignores Cover still kills most vehicles easily, and some armies still can't deal with 1 Wraithknight. That aside, you're talking about getting rid of a lot of special rules, just to bring them in line with everyone. If I were to play against that, I would feel like the opponent is babying me, which is not fun, and makes my victory hallow, or their victory even more of a kick in the teeth.

First, I strongly agree on the need. The implementation would have to be very widely agreed upon (like 2+/4+ for 2+ rerollables) for it to really do a lot of good. But we need something.

1) Probably a good idea. I'd rather something a little less nerfie (6"? 24"/Gets Hot? Lots of ideas out there), but this is much better than the current situation. I've gone falcon-heavy, but capacity 6 and a HS slot really keep that from doing much.

2) Is Laser Lock actually stronger-than-fair outside shooting the Serpent Shield? Warwalkers are good, but fragile. Vypers and Falcons aren't great. Wraithlords are tad on the underpowered side, and usually don't take them. Anything (outside superheavies) I'm missing?

3) Shurikats - Are Guardians really a problem? And are my Autarch and Farseer's pistols all that big a deal?
ShuriCannons - Basically a weaker Assault Cannon? At a ROF of 3, has pseudorending on it done all that much?

4) Know your meta. In metas without a lot of the big-bads, even one could be too much. I'd feel bad fielding one against most of the people I play. It's not that they're bad, that's just not the game we play. On the other hand, my Exodite conversion idea for one is sooo epic....

5) What would you think of allying in some DE in a fairly pan-Eldar list (fluffwise, long story)? Is it a problem to use the WWP for Harlequins?

(Honest questions)

People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

 Quickjager wrote:
People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

Do you hate Scions from Militarum Tempestus too since they ignore 3+ saves? What about Sniper Kroot, SM sniper scouts, Eldar rangers etc?

Sniper Scouts have 5 pseudorending shots. Serpent has 3. For a lot more points.

Razorback w/AC has 4 actually-rending shots. (AC straight outclasses the SC)
Razorback Las/Plas has 2/3 ap2 s7/9 shots
Tac squads can have las/plas(/combiplas) too

Those are also a lot cheaper. And those are just some C:SM options.

Bladestorm seems to be overly feared. The Serpent is a problem, but is 3 ap5 ap2-on-a-6 shots at 24" a real problem, or just an insult atop the Serpent's injury?

Bladestorm isn't inherently troubling to me, mostly since the bodies you're paying for it on are T3/5+ or T3/4+ infantry and the shuriken cannon is taking up space that's probably better used for heavy weapons that can kill things your infantry can't. The Wraithknight isn't too much of a problem simply because it's actually fairly priced (T8/W6, yeah, but three hundred points and you only have a 3+/5++?). Laser Lock is an interesting way to differentiate an otherwise uninteresting gun, I have no objection to its existence. Especially seeing as it makes ground-based weapons not as bad as they otherwise might be when shooting flyers.

The biggest balance issues in the Codex are tied to Wave Serpents and the Seer Council. The Wave Serpent puts out way too much firepower for its price; I don't know that ignoring the Serpent Shield entirely is the solution, but since vehicles are killed by glances in this edition letting people pen you isn't enough of a sacrifice to make you stop using the extra S7 shots to keep it around. If you couldn't jink the turn after you used the Serpent Shield (or at least lost the benefit of holofields) shooting with it would be a lot more of a trade-off instead of a free extra gun. Reducing the range of the gun might help too. As to the Seer Council I've been advocating for a houserule preventing the stacking of Blessings for a long time; sure, you can have rerollable saves, or 2+ armour on jetbikes, or 3+ jink, but not rerollable 2+ armour/3+ jink/4+ Inv on the same unit at the same time. One Blessing per unit.

As to the DE Allies issue I'd suggest keeping in mind that allying in Dark Eldar lets the Eldar field some otherwise completely ass units halfway effectively, if not competitively (Raider full of Howling Banshees, anyone?). If you're annoyed by people using them to perfect-accuracy Deep Strike Wraithguard/Wraithblades into your backline I'd like to observe that Space Marines have been pulling bs like that for years and I haven't heard the clamour for drop pods to be banned yet. That said giving Wraithguard/Wraithblades a rule that prohibits Independent Characters other than Farseers/Spiritseers joining them would not be out of place.

And while we're at it is it really so much to ask that Autarchs get interesting equipment to compete with Exarchs? What kind of Warhammer army gives their sergeants fancier toys than their generals? Even if they don't get Exarch wargear some sort of library of fancy Path of Command stuff that does something beyond what grunts get might make them actually worth taking.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

Do you hate Scions from Militarum Tempestus too since they ignore 3+ saves? What about Sniper Kroot, SM sniper scouts, Eldar rangers etc?

Lol Pozy you try too hard. Don't become the morgoth of the Tau.

Hotshot Lasguns are Str3AP3, at that value you're rolling a 50/50 just to wound; not to mention the troop they're on costs 12 points base. Sniper rifles are also Heavy 1 so its not even comparable. Keep making me laugh Pozy, you're too funny when you try so hard.

Really?
Compared to a standard Shuriken round, to wound a Marine:
1/2/3 - both fail
4 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing
5 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing, Hotshot does automatically
6 - Both kill

Looks to me like HotShot eats Marines much better.

As for being 12 ppm, DAs are 13ppm, and Guardians are 9ppm, have 12" range, and are AP'ed by Boltguns.

Doesn't seem all that unfair, especially since most IG are all about special and/or heavy weapons. DAs can get one melee weapon (on a s3t3 model). Their Shuriken weapons are their point. Guardians are about being the last line if anything gets too close to their heavy weapon. So the differences seem right.

Snipers might be Heavy 1, but they're also range 36, so 2x-3x the range of a shuricat. And autowound on a 4/5. And most aren't considered great. Even with both walking and running, the Sniper Rifle outranges shuriCats by a wide margin.

I think the point is that ShuriCats are not the only way Troops have of popping Termies. Plasma Gun anyone?

I played an Eldar army for around 12 years now. My theme is a infantry based aspect warriors heavy list. My only vehicules are a squadron of Vypers and a Single Wave Serpent. The new codex gave my boys and girls a great boost in mobility and efficency and all my opponents have seen my army has fair and fun to play against.

The big problem in my new codex is the fact that Wave Serpent are too strong for their cost (they should cost around a 150 pts without any upgrades in my opinion).

Bladestorm isn't such an issue and mostly revolves around fear factor. Combat focus is such a great thing to me that I am incapable of judging it fairly and would like to have other people opinion on it.

Scatterlasers special rules are mostly devastating on a Wave Serpent for it's mostly without significant effect on other units.

I never used or played against a Wraithknight, so I can't judge its strengh really well, but I would say its price is very high and reasonnable for its strengh. Of course, three of them in a thousand point match is very excessive but that is more due to the very bad system of unit selection of 40K (which is great for special scenario and narrative play, but poor for competitive play) than the rule of the thing itself.

Seers should also be unable to ride on a jetbike. During third eddition, it was the case. Farseer were seen has to old and important to ride a jetbike like an eldar teen (those damn brats trample our flowers and call us names all the time!!!). Removing that option would make them more balance by removing them a chance for T4 and a normal 3+ save on top of ridiculous mobility. I would agree that two identical warlock blessing should not stack, but I though it was the case? Someone really claimed to have 2++ save because of two spell of protect on the same squad? That seems very stupid.

All in all, Wave Serpent and to a lesser extend Jetseers are a poison to our army for it overshadow all the good things you can do with our codex and I have no doubt that in a few years it will be adjusted. For now, I would propose Eldar player to ignore the shield completly and most of the problem linked to our army will be done. Each faction of 40K has its special thing that makes it great. To me Bladestorm, combat focus are the Eldar special stuff. Necron have Will be Back!, Tesla and gauss weapons, Space Marine Drop pods and And They Shall Know no Fear, Tau awesome long range firepower, Imperial Guard the best regular tanks in the game, etc.

Jetseers and Troops Jetbikes exist because Codex: Craftworlds got taken out and the 4e book was supposed to let the Eldar simulate the major Craftworlds, and Saim-Hann is supposed to be able to run an all-Jetbike army. They're not inherently dumb.

I'm talking about stacking different Blessings, not the same one. Protect, Conceal, and Fortune are all reasonable alone, it's when you have all of them affecting one unit that Jetseers become silly.

 Quickjager wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
People are just annoyed a basic troop weapon can invalidate a 2+ save unit. It's obnoxious to know your points can be invalidated for so little.

Do you hate Scions from Militarum Tempestus too since they ignore 3+ saves? What about Sniper Kroot, SM sniper scouts, Eldar rangers etc?

Lol Pozy you try too hard. Don't become the morgoth of the Tau.

Hotshot Lasguns are Str3AP3, at that value you're rolling a 50/50 just to wound; not to mention the troop they're on costs 12 points base. Sniper rifles are also Heavy 1 so its not even comparable. Keep making me laugh Pozy, you're too funny when you try so hard.

What do you mean by "Morgoth of the Tau?" I'm assuming its something bad.
Its not that much of a difference to be honest.

Bharring wrote:
Really?
Compared to a standard Shuriken round, to wound a Marine:
1/2/3 - both fail
4 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing
5 - Shuriken has a 1/3 of killing, Hotshot does automatically
6 - Both kill

Looks to me like HotShot eats Marines much better.

Well, 22% chance to kill a marine, compared to 18% for the DAs - not sure that counts as 'much better'.

Also, bear in mind is that Hotshot lasguns are rapid fire weapons with a range of 18", whereas DA shuriken guns are assault 2 weapons with 18" range. So, at ranges 12"<18", those DAs will be getting twice as many shots as the Scions.

I never knew that shuriken guns were assault 2, I assumed that they were rapid fire. I can kinda see now why Quickjagger hated on me

I'd suggest keeping in mind also that the Eldar are supposed to be an army of elite hyper-specialized units; Dire Avengers are better at wrecking infantry at close range than most Troops, because that's their area of expertise. They're never going to compete with anyone else on anti-armour or long-ranged fire. Take out Bladestorm and Dire Avengers can't do the only task they're there for as well and they already can't do anything else.

Im actually glad that there is a post for this cause I can say the eldar are a little intense! I play vs eldar a lot. The problem I have is

1) constant psychic powers debuff, buffs, all that stuff.

2) Wraith knights with suncannon AP2 never taking terminators again!

3) Wave serpents. They are just the worst.

Besides these three things eldar are not that bad and i must say I suck when i play marines vs eldar but orks (especially with that new codex) rock vs them im able to control the board swamp the knight with dakka and claws.

Marines are just awful to play vs eldar. But maybe you guys have some pointers with fighting eldar with marines.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Im actually glad that there is a post for this cause I can say the eldar are a little intense! I play vs eldar a lot. The problem I have is

1) constant psychic powers debuff, buffs, all that stuff.

2) Wraith knights with suncannon AP2 never taking terminators again!

3) Wave serpents. They are just the worst.

Besides these three things eldar are not that bad and i must say I suck when i play marines vs eldar but orks (especially with that new codex) rock vs them im able to control the board swamp the knight with dakka and claws.

Marines are just awful to play vs eldar. But maybe you guys have some pointers with fighting eldar with marines.

I never remember, can vanilla Marines get Divination Librarians?

No.

(Tigirus and Mantis Warriors can)

@Vipoid

In the debate Scions vs Dire Avengers against Space Marines, both are comparable. Scions cost 1 less point, but are worst in close combat and at longer range were rapid fire hurts the damage output of the Scions. Deep Striking abilities and move through cover is a bigger bonus than the conter-attack abilitie of the Dire Avengers, but not by much. The fact that they have access to special weapons is an advantage for the Scion, but they pay a reasonnable price for it. They also have the possiblity to have easy to use and very effective orders on top of psychic buffs like the Dire Avengers. In the end I would say those two units are quite similar in use, endurence, strengh and points. For those reasons, I think its fair to compare a Scion to Dire Avenger. I think we could talk of good power balance between those two units who have the same niche in their respective list: elite light infantry. The big difference you, and many other player might see, is the numbers of tool Eldar have to deal against other elite armies compare to the Tempestus or the Militarum. I would also like to point that personnal lack of experience against a Tempestus army (a rare beast in my meta) might be the reason you, and others, perceive Dire Avengers has stronger than Scions. Feel free to argue against me on that point though, I am not a Mathhammer expert or even fan its just my guts talking.

@AnomanderRake

I do think its possible to recreate a very good list for Saim Hann by using a Autarch on a Jetbike for a leader and I am in favor of Jetbike has troops. But I am still on the fence about Jetseers. One thing certain, staking blessings like lego bricks shouldn't be tolerated especially on a unit like that.

@zombiekila707

Eldar always struggled against horde armies like orks or Tyranid swarms. The short range, low endurence and small numbers of most of their units makes them naturally vulnerable to that kind of strategy. On the other hand, Eldars have always been very good at defeating other elite army, especially Space Marines who, while very good units, are more generalist than the specilised Eldars. This cost them big for they have a perfect tool to beat Space Marines in every area. To defeat them with Space Marine, what works best (at least against me), is guts and the big risk of close combat where even the average Space Marine can pull its high T and S to good use. If you fail, you find yourself in the optimum range of all Eldar guns and you die fast. If you pull it off, you negate the Eldar advantage in firepower and use your resilience to defeat them. I have seen it work with massive drop pod assault a few time, but you need to deploy correctly and a bit of luck (like always). I didn't played much games against Marines these days, so I don't know much about their new tools, but I think you can achieve air superiority rather easily which would help you against our most powerful weapons. Hope it can help you a bit. By hte way, sniper scouts and sternguard veterants can take down a Wraithknight and Wraithlord for a nice price and still be efficient against other units.

epronovost wrote:
They also have the possiblity to have easy to use and very effective orders on top of psychic buffs like the Dire Avengers.

Regarding Orders, it's likely the scions will be either advancing (if they want to make full use of their short-range weapons) or deep striking - both of which can easily put them out of the range of orders (just 12").

epronovost wrote:
In the end I would say those two units are quite similar in use, endurence, strengh and points. For those reasons, I think its fair to compare a Scion to Dire Avenger. I think we could talk of good power balance between those two units who have the same niche in their respective list: elite light infantry. The big difference you, and many other player might see, is the numbers of tool Eldar have to deal against other elite armies compare to the Tempestus or the Militarum.

I'd also add that (in the AM book, at least) Scions are elite choices - whereas Dire Avengers are troops. And, getting anti-MEQ/anti-TEQ in the latter seems a little more valuable.

epronovost wrote:
I would also like to point that personnal lack of experience against a Tempestus army (a rare beast in my meta) might be the reason you, and others, perceive Dire Avengers has stronger than Scions. Feel free to argue against me on that point though, I am not a Mathhammer expert or even fan its just my guts talking.

In terms of a full Tempestus army, I also have no experience. The only thing I have to go on is what I've heard - which is that Tempestus armies aren't very good.

 Dannyrulx wrote:
... And 'nids will hiss at anything...

(Sorry)

'nids, bugs, hiss? Geddit? No? Ok, I'll eat a cookie and come back.

@Vipoid

You are perfectly right about orders and distance for Scions in the context of a Militarum army. They usually are used in the backfield for suicide strikes. But in the context of the Scions in a Tempestus army, this is much less of an issue because of the proximity of the Command squads and less suicidal strategy not to mention they are also troops in that situation. In that context I would declare the two units roughly equals, but I would concede that in a Militarum force, they may be weaker than Dire Avengers (still not by that much though). 40K isn't hard science eather. Personnal preferences might make the Dire Avengers better than the Scions (or the oposite), but I would think that considering one clearly superior to the other an error of judgement.

In my opinion, Tempestus armies plays a lot like Eldar. You move fast, strike hard, tries to gain synergie bonus between your squads to win and cross your finger when the ennemy start to shoot at you for you can drop like flies. I tried one myself (I am the one guy who plays that in my meta). Its not that bad (average I would say), but it lacks options compared to the other armies of 40K. Who knows, maybe the future. hold nice stuff for it.

You mostly replied on this board. What is your opinion on Bladestorm? I would also be interested in knowing your opinion on Dire Avengers and Scions. it could help continue our discution if you please.

I think ignoring laserlock would be enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As that gives them very definiable weaknesses even moreso against flyers.

It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It's not so much Laser Lock, but the Scatter Laser/Serpent Shield Combo.

For example, I regularly run War Walkers with Scatter Laser/Bright Lance (and yes I know, statistically Dual Lance is better. Shut up). I've never heard a complaint about twin-linking the Bright Lances.

With Serpents, you get 4 Twin-linked shots (at BS4) at 36". With a single hit, you can get another D6+1 BS4 shots that are Twin-linked and ignore cover. If at 24", you'll get another 3 Twin-linked BS4 shots. 4-7 shots are Strength 6, with the remaining 2-7 cover ignoring shots are Strength 7.


With all that, remember Scatter Serpents cannot touch AV14 and are then forced to rely on other units to deal with it (like all the Bright Lances I enjoy running).

Nobody has ever complained when I mount one on my Falcon.