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Well, I would be taking Dark Reapers with a Spirit seer (possible Shrouding) and a Farseer (Guide and possible Ignores Cover from Divination). Yeah, they might not be directly better against everything, but add in the synergy that they have with other units, and blam.

Tiggy can give the Devs 4++ and ignores cover for about the same odds, for about the same price. But he's more likely to be used elsewhere.

And Reapers + Psykers is basically a much more fragile CentStar.

You are already disregarding that Eldar can get a specific unit to do a specific job at a far cheaper cost than it takes for any other codex.

Effectively they are the most efficient per point, because when you buy them they have that ONE job, so when they do that job, compared to other factions they are so much better at it.

Anything the C:SM, C:CSM, or C:AM can do, the Eldar can do it more point efficently, ALWAYS faster.

You argue bladestorm is what is necessary for the Eldar to remain effective MEQ killers.

I suppose you won't mind not getting instawounding on it anymore? Rather just AP3?

Nothing like a Grey Knight player to see cheese in other people's codexes

 Quickjager wrote:

You are already disregarding that Eldar can get a specific unit to do a specific job at a far cheaper cost than it takes for any other codex.

I'm sure there are some T3 units that cost more than a dire avenger or guardian, but outside of Tempest Scions with AP3 on every shot, who get access to orders and cheap transports with firing points, I don't know of any off hand. Someone already did the CSM comparison and they completely left out the fact that Eldar don't get access to krak grenade equivalents on their troops.

 Quickjager wrote:

Effectively they are the most efficient per point, because when you buy them they have that ONE job, so when they do that job, compared to other factions they are so much better at it.

Yes, that's why everyone takes the Eldar Troops at maximum capacity of 20 guardians or 10 dire avengers per unit. Oh wait, almost no one does that (I did, I liked me some 20 man guardian blobs with double bright lance and a fast shot Avatar).

 Quickjager wrote:

Anything the C:SM, C:CSM, or C:AM can do, the Eldar can do it more point efficently, ALWAYS faster.

Really?
How many troop transport choices do the Eldar get at 35 points? How about 50? Because my SM get 3 with options for extra guns, dozer blades, multiple firing points and even a death wind missile launcher at that level.

How about using standard infantry troop choices to kill enemy tanks? Because my melta bomb toting sergeants have taken out landraiders, defilers and walkers, much less the krak grenades they all get standard.

How about not suffer instant death from a S6 gun on our main HQ? TFC and Shadow weavers alike murder T3 HQ. My poor IG opponent's HQ couldn't make it past T2 alive ever when I fielded either of those in pairs.

 Quickjager wrote:

You argue bladestorm is what is necessary for the Eldar to remain effective MEQ killers.

He was talking about Dire Avengers, aka the Eldar Tactical Space Marine. A whopping 1 point cheaper, but gives up 1 T, 1 S, a massive 3+ vs 4+ point of armour save, 6" on a gun (but assault vs rapid fire so ~same there), krak grenades, combat squads, chapter tactics and a hell of a lot more transport and deployment options. Also, no options for a heavy weapon in the squad, much less a heavy and special. In exchange for... AP2 on 1/6 of hits, 1/9 of shots.So instead of AP 5, they're a volailte AP 4+4/9, call it AP4.5.

 Quickjager wrote:

I suppose you won't mind not getting instawounding on it anymore? Rather just AP3?

Let me guess, your army is a GoI draigo, NDK and a FNP paladin 2+ deathstar, optionally with a NDKs.

Sure, make the terminators and NDK a 3+ and you have a houserule any Eldar player will play you with. Why push for a double nerf? You already need a 6 on the TO WOUND, not TO HIT to get the AP2 "autowound". Do you have T8/T9 in your list to worry about?

The Wave serpent is a great unit. If not for hull points it would be OP. As is, you just need to have a counter for it (ignores cover, close combat, or weight of fire to kill it with glances), just like you need a counter for flyers. Make any other vehicle int he book 20 points cheaper and they'll evaporate though. Do the point comparison between it and a Devilfish. The shield is costing the Eldar player a LOT of points.

The Eldar have tons of weaknesses for you to exploit if you face an ACTUAL list. But the internet argument is always against a tailored list. Facing monstrous creatures and landraiders? Suddenly war walkers have bright lances and are supported by firedragons. Unarmoured hordes? Suddenly it's scatter lasers and shuricannons. Everybody in your list causes fear? Then the Eldar HQ is suddenly an Avatar. The mental gymnastics in these "balancing debates" is impressive.

This sort of thinking leads to the Schrodinger's Wave Serpent - a vehicle with the perfect loadout, placed at the back edge of the board to protect AV10, yet somehow firing 14 AP2 shots at guys 48" away every round, carrying fire dragons when facing Landraiders and Banshees... well no one takes banshees when trying to win, but you get the point.

I ask that if you want to debate the "balance" of something, first find the fair V for that P before you call it OP. HEre's a nice link. It is fair and logical and reasonable, and therefore gets no attention
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614386.page

We'd need to substantially drop their price.

Boltgun hits kill 1/12 Tac termies.
Shurikat hits kill 1/6 Tac termies.
A boltgun hit kills 1 in 3 DAs.
A boltgun hit kills 1 in 6 Marines.
A shuriken hit kills 1 in 3 Marines.
(Assuming no cover).

Twice as good at killing naked tac termies in a shootout than Marines. Twice as easy for naked tac termites to kill in a shootout than Marines.

Looking at the numbers, what makes DAs a better counter to Termies than naked tac marines? And start throwing in just about any weapons upgrades, and things get really slanted really quickly.

Autowound only comes into play with t8+. Might not be necessary, but they'd need some other troop option.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

I ask again. If every complaint about the Scatter Laser has to reference its synergy with Serpent Shield instead of any other loadout on any other vehicle why nerf it instead of dialing back the Serpent Shield?

GK cheese.... yeaaaaa wasn't aware we were living in 2008 anymore. You still holding onto beanie babies while you're at that?

Rawr after everything you said, you still didn't refute anything. All you did was point out the "options" the SM codex has, the low toughness of your models (which I never said different).

Also I AM worried about dat instawound, how else will my Wraithknights live?

You're right! My list @ 1500 is

BroChamp
5-man Strike Squad-5 Falchions

Draigo
5-man Pally Squad-5 Falchions, 2 Psycannons

2 NDKs - fully loaded
5-man Interceptor Squad - 1 flamer, 1 hammer, 3 halberds, teleporter homer

SUCH A CHEESY LIST, IT MUST HAVE COME FROM A CHUCK E. CHEESE AMIRIGHT? Just lookit dat deathstar, it gets all da bitches down at Armageddon, M'kar the poor thing keeps comin' back for more each time. It's like you don't want the GK to win? It's like were dominating this edition right? Dude you can call a GK player MANY things, but cheese for taking the optimal list? The list that the codex writes itself (NSF)? Now if I doubled down on the formation to get 4 DKs....

I mean we all know how EVERY terminator is cost effective, CSM can attest to that. Meganobs and Ghazzy with his Bullyboyz are sweeping through everyone's list right?

I desist.

We were talking about Eldar, not the state of 2+ saves.

The Eldar codex comes down to three things
-Jetbikes for everyone (Same could be argued for Space Marines, I don't care I hate how bikes look)
-Wave Serpent (don't really need to talk much)
-MC abuse (I'm not touching this people get mad at me for not touching Purgation Squads)

Everything else is icing on the cake because they are all good units, it could be argued there is one dud in the codex (Banshees) and that's because they lack the ability to get into assault in a shooting game.

RAWRAIrobblerobble, I love you dude! I agree with EVERYTHING you said, GK players are so annoying, aren't they? I love how they think that its okay for them to spam dreadknights and abuse the ally system, yet they call out Eldar on EVERYTHING that they can do better than them.
"Ermagerd! You have ap2 options and I don't! Woe is me"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager, admit it, you are a cheesy player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you even said that its your optimal list, so why can't Eldar use their optimal list? Why the double standard?

Yeah, GKs have it rough for options. But do we really need to troll Robble?

Robble, I'm going to have to disagree with you about the Wave Serpent. That many mid-S shots, even with poor AP, is too much considering it's survivability. Add some Ignores Cover in there, and wow. It is a lot of points, and does have some weaknesses, but there is a reason its the hardcounter to fun *and* present in bulk in most top-10 lists.

QuickJ, let's take a look at how you play.
Skewed heavily for that 2+. Ready to make any massed boltgun cry. Looks very tech'ed against low-S high/decent AP. You're probably used to most troops outside special/heavy weapons being nearly useless against you.

Should things like the DK be able to shrug off almost all troop fire? I'm not a fan of anything like that moving fast and not being one Explodes result away from being dead. T6 2+/5++ with lots of wounds is just plain rough. Add mobility and killy to it (DK, Tide), and I'm not a huge fan. IKs and WKs are worse, IMO, though. WL should be fine, because its very slow, only has 3 wounds, and not a lot of dakka.

So let's look at the DK you're worried about.
1/6 boltgun hits wound. 1/6 bypass armor. 1/36 actually wound.
1/6 shuriken hits wound. 2/3 bypass armour. 1/9 actually wound.
For completeness, 1/2 Krak grenades wound, 1/6 bypass armour.

So 20 Shuriken shots get 20(2/3)(1/9) hits. 40/27ths, or less than 2 wounds. A dent, but by no means an effective threat to it.

20 boltgun shots is 20(2/3)(1/36) = 40/108. Less than half a wound. A naked Tac squad is unlikely to even dent it.

So Avengers can barely dent the thing, and Marines are unlikely to scratch it. Not a huge difference, but advantage - Avengers. Better gun on the squishier platform for the same points. Not seeing a problem here.

In melee, I'm going to assume a DK has WS4. Don't know the real value, but it affects both equally.

Avengers using their grenades hit 1/2, wound 1/6, bypass armor 1/6:
10(1/2)(1/6)(1/6): 10/72. Not gonna do squat.

Marines using Krak (assuming you're too cheap for a 5pt melts bomb) hit 1/2, wound 1/2, bypass 1/6:
10(1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 10/24. Might do something naked.

Neither is great, but Marines do much more in melee. Even naked. For the same points.

Either way, neither is going to stop a DK. But that's one of the reasons we almost never see naked Tacs.

So DAs do a little more to t6 2+5++ with shooting, but not enough to give pause to a DK or Tide, for the same cost as a naked CSM squad. They do less in melee, but neither do well there either.

DAs do double the damage to tac termies, but die twice as fast to their shooting, than Marines. The numbers are worse for DAs against Termies with SS or a 4+ cover.

DAs lose heavily to Marines in melee, at 0-12, and at 18+. DAs win at 12-18, but only because of Bladestorm. And by less than a 2:1 margin.

DAs lose to Marines against AV10-12, and tie against AV13+.

DAs lose to Marines for anything not both AP3- and S6+. Then they tie. They only win against Grav weaponry.

They do win against t8+. That's just Wraith MCs, Iron Arm demons, and Gargants. They don't do a lot to them, but they can inflict a wound or two. Remove bladestorm, and DAs lose this category to naked Marines.

Against GEQ, Shurikens do vanishingly little more than boltguns, shot-for-shot. Again, on a much squishier platform.

All in all, I really don't see DAs as outstripping Marines. For the same cost (13ppm).

Two substantial things to remember though:
-This was against *naked* tacs. Most people see Tacs as vehicles for special/heavy/seargent weapons. All of which make these numbers much better for Tacs, even when factoring in their price.
Second, this was compared to a CSM, not a loyalist. Generally considered a bad unit in a bad dex.

I'm really not seeing the problem?

The DK is far more broken than the wave serpent. Whilst the serpent has many mid-S shots, the DK can move 30" once a game which is ridiculous and moves 12" other times. They have awesome guns, they're psykers that can get a 4+ invulnerable save and destroys everything in combat with its 4/5 (depending on weapons) S10 attacks!

How is that not cheese?

 Quickjager wrote:
You are already disregarding that Eldar can get a specific unit to do a specific job at a far cheaper cost than it takes for any other codex.

That is also a downside to the units, they have only one specific job and cannot perform another role very well. Fire Dragons are great at taking out armour, but I have to pay over 100pts for a transport to get them any where near their target (ignoring allies). Once they have had one round of shooting they will get shredded by practically anything on the board. I'd love a nice 35pt transport that lands next to what I want to shoot at.

This has always been the case with Eldar though, not a new thing to this codex. I think the only thing that can posibbly be seen as OP is the amount of shots the serpent shield gets.

Reading the hate quickjagger has had against the wave serpent I'd just like to add my opinion. I'd much prefer to go against an eldar player with wave serpant spam and have them acknowledge it as cheese instead of a gk player (like yourself and many others) who dont see your own dk spam as cheese. At least eldar accept the serpant as op

In terms of Bladestorm, I don't know. Maybe I just haven't experienced it enough, but as far as I can recall it just never seemed to do much. Perhaps it was just overshadowed by other stuff. Don't get me wrong - it's a nice ability - it just doesn't strike me as particularly OP.

I wonder if people are more annoyed that they got it on top of all their other amazing rules? Kinda like the icing on a cake that already had icing.

Either way, it just doesn't strike me as an OP ability.


With regard to GKs, yeah, I find even two Dreadknights obnoxious to deal with. Their stupid durability, combined with a ludicrously cheap jump pack *and* teleporter (God forbid a tough model be slow) make them incredibly tedious to fight. Also, anyone who claims 7th fixed wound allocation obviously hasn't faced the delights of Draigo tanking wounds on a 2++ save.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It seems like nobody likes laser lock much. Can anyone elaborate on their concerns?

It is the most obnoxious rule, combined with all of Eldar's good guns. And I feel the ruling is stupid. IF you get 1 hit, at BS 4 twin-linked. Oh boy, like that's not gonna happen. Might as well just say if you shoot the damn thing, everything else is twin-linked. Then there's the fact that it's dirt cheap for S6 and a long range. The gun, not the rule, I mean. I just overall hate Scatter Lasers.

I ask again. If every complaint about the Scatter Laser has to reference its synergy with Serpent Shield instead of any other loadout on any other vehicle why nerf it instead of dialing back the Serpent Shield?

It is more obnoxious when combined with the Serpent Shield, butI, personally, still think it's stupidly cheap for a good amount of S6 shots at good range, half of the time Twin-linked because of what it's on, and ever on a Fire Prism or a Wraithknight, it's still WAY too good IMO. Also, as I've said, I think the Laser Lock rule is BS. Why make it happen if you get at least one hit? You're GOING to get one hit.

I find it obnoxious when people complain about the wave sepent's TL S6 shots but don't complain about TLDABLW on Tyrants/Carnifexen. They can have 12 TL shots! That's better than the wave serpent but you know what it isn't as good as? A Dreadknight!

SGTPozy wrote:
I find it obnoxious when people complain about the wave sepent's TL S6 shots but don't complain about TLDABLW on Tyrants/Carnifexen. They can have 12 TL shots! That's better than the wave serpent but you know what it isn't as good as? A Dreadknight!

Dakkafexes are good, don't get me wrong. But, it's the fact that they walk across the board, and have 18" range. That's the trade off with then. Plus, they're BS 3.

Indeed that is pretty obnoxious, but then again the dk is their only "viable option" you know because 12 force bolter shots, and a heavy psycannon is like firing tickles at the enemy

Woh people complain about the scatter lasers and blade storm?

Seriously?.

Honestly im fine with dakka fexes having 12 tl st6 shots as ironclads move up to make there acquaintance.

I had always though the number 1 issue with eldar where the serpants rediculus survivability or there insane damage output.

Im hoping GW just nerfs the shield into a much shorter range.

I don't understand all of the Eldar hate when everyone knows that GKs deserve all of our hate.

Then go start a GK thread.

As it so happens, this thread is about balancing the Eldar, of which there are issues to be balanced.

 Desubot wrote:
Woh people complain about the scatter lasers and blade storm?

Seriously?.

Honestly im fine with dakka fexes having 12 tl st6 shots as ironclads move up to make there acquaintance.

I had always though the number 1 issue with eldar where the serpants rediculus survivability or there insane damage output.

Presumably the above are issues 2 and 3 then.

 vipoid wrote:

Presumably the above are issues 2 and 3 then.

Well that true i guess though iv never EVER heard anyone complain about it before which is why im surprised

I'd much prefer to go against an eldar player with wave serpant spam and have them acknowledge it as cheese

This weekend at our local club gamer A asked gamer B:
A-Have you brought your Eldar Serpent spam once again?
B-No.
A-*shows signs of relief*
B-Today I'm playing Daemons and I'm gonna summon even MOAR SERPENT SPAM!!1!

All of us were laughing.

 Desubot wrote:
Woh people complain about the scatter lasers and blade storm?

Seriously?.

Honestly im fine with dakka fexes having 12 tl st6 shots as ironclads move up to make there acquaintance.

I had always though the number 1 issue with eldar where the serpants rediculus survivability or there insane damage output.

Im hoping GW just nerfs the shield into a much shorter range.

I just want Scatter Lasers to go up in price, even if they don't change anything. Laser lock aside, (which is still a bit much imo) it's 4 S6 shots at 36". And a lot of things can take them. So, like, come on man...

come on man what?

Necrons get a slowed amount of St7 shots at near the same distance in spades. unless we are talking about a sweeping change to all codexs then i dont think so.

Its not a balance issue ether.

The issue with the wave was the damn shield. being able to negate melta pens + jinking made it damn near impossible to kill as it flat outs away doing the zoidburg woop woop woop woop woop.

OR Hull pointing enemy tanks like no ones business with St7 ignore cover which is nearly the only defense vehicle have to survive. to top it off they are taken as DT so there slots dont even matter.

St6 is going to have a tough time killing vehicles and most things still get armor saves against it even at that range.

 Desubot wrote:
come on man what?

Necrons get a slowed amount of St7 shots at near the same distance in spades. unless we are talking about a sweeping change to all codexs then i dont think so.

Its not a balance issue ether.

The issue with the wave was the damn shield. being able to negate melta pens + jinking made it damn near impossible to kill as it flat outs away doing the zoidburg woop woop woop woop woop.

OR Hull pointing enemy tanks like no ones business with St7 ignore cover which is nearly the only defense vehicle have to survive. to top it off they are taken as DT so there slots dont even matter.

St6 is going to have a tough time killing vehicles and most things still get armor saves against it even at that range.

Our S7 is only 24", with Tesla, and that's it. And that's the only high S shooting we have, and it's on a non-fast skimmer.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Our S7 is only 24", with Tesla, and that's it. And that's the only high S shooting we have, and it's on a non-fast skimmer.

Or a insanely fast flying DT. ALL of which weapons are Twin linked already. Triarch stalkers also exist for higher ST, as well the dooooooooooom scythes and other things.


There is no good reason to nerf or points adjust Scatter lasers.

Much salt.

 krodarklorr wrote:

I just want Scatter Lasers to go up in price, even if they don't change anything. Laser lock aside, (which is still a bit much imo) it's 4 S6 shots at 36". And a lot of things can take them. So, like, come on man...

Do you think everything the Eldar have is undercosted? If not, how about the shuricannon and star cannon?

I find it helpful to honestly assess something by comparing it to other competitive options. I say competitive because you can compare any middling unit to either a great or terrible one and make it seem over/under costed as much as you want. IG Lord Commander's whining about the cost of their power sword for example, are not a productive comparison point.

Try to keep in mind that an IG Autocannon goes for just 10 points, for 2 S7 shots at AP4 with an extra 12" range. Eldar pay 20 points for the SL, but can only put it on a relatively pricey or fragile unit - ten T3 5+ save guardians for 110 with the gun, or ~200 for 3 of their AV10 walkers or ~150 on a HS tank (200 if you want to include the DAVU as a troop unit).

That said, how much do you think the SL should cost? I see it giving up the AP2 of a star cannon for an extremely limited twin-linkedness (the model needs to have two guns to benefit from it, so those guardians are SoL) and a pair of extra shots as reasonable.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the shield was supposed to be twinlinked at all, RAI, but that's another argument I'm not going to push. GW should have put out a clarification on that (and hundreds of other issues) but that's yet another threadjacking we don't need.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
St6 is going to have a tough time killing vehicles and most things still get armor saves against it even at that range.

Too bad the guns the Eldar can put on it are inevitably S6. The S7 is a 1d6+1 AP- and negates the pen protection that is the other half of the shield complaints. People always assume the serpent has it's butt to the edge, shield up when getting shot and yet somehow zipping 30" a turn in a single unobstructed move on planet bowling ball, never exposing AV10 to a charge or return fire and firing it's 24" gun. The WraithKnight is the scary thing in a competitive Eldar list, not the serpent. Properly deployed, 3 Grav Cents in a LR will wreck any serpent they want on the board in T2, and have a decent shot of taking out 2 with the sarg's split fire if they are not jinking. And that's without the land raider even shooting, much less what Tau, Necrn or flyers can do.

 Desubot wrote:
OR Hull pointing enemy tanks like no ones business with St7 ignore cover which is nearly the only defense vehicle have to survive. to top it off they are taken as DT so there slots dont even matter.

The DT slot thing I'll give you. Make them 75 points without the shield and make the 40 point shield upgrade have to come from a fast or heavy slot and we're square. But don't nix a ~40 point shield without dropping the point cost for the ONLY transport option they have.

 Desubot wrote:
The issue with the wave was the damn shield. being able to negate melta pens + jinking made it damn near impossible to kill as it flat outs away doing the zoidburg woop woop woop woop woop.

The model is huge. If you are playing on a board where it can go anywhere and be out of 6" move and 2d6=7" charge range on a 7" long model, that means your opponent has no fast moving troops, assault vehicles or redeployment options (Gate/T2 pods, etc) ANYWHERE within a 40" diameter bubble. He deserves to lose at that point. Much less for not having even a krak grenade to toss at your rear AV10 as you scuttle away...

 Sir Arun wrote:
Let's face it - the Eldar codex is currently the best in the entire 40k meta (crazy ally combinations and clever builds aside).

Did Grey Knights and Necrons stop existing? Or am I missing something?

Well GK got a bit trimmed and Necrons are still pants on head

I think what he meens by meta is the competitive meta where usually the top 10s are full of serpent spam and stuff.

@Raw: The point i was getting accross is that the SL isnt the issue about the sepeant, its the rest of it. Obviously the rear armor is the weakness but most players with working braincells that can spot a drop pod will obviously put rear into a LOS Blocker or the table edge and not shoot the shield unless they have too. and to add to that (IIRC) its a 3+ Jink save as a second line of defense. + if it isnt outright removed the guys inside can generally handle most drop cargo + the serpent can join in if need be.

My personal prefrence would just be to nerf the range on it to like 12-18" and call it a day. The thing shouldn't be 60"