Ooohh, I wonder how this will turn out. As a Wood Elf player the idea of an Elven Legions makes me feel giddy, Brolocks working with Sisters of the Thorn? Wild Riders lead by Dreadlords? Phoenix's leading Warhawks and Skycutter Chariots lead by the Sisters of Twilight on Eagle? It makes me feel happy inside.
My only thoughts are how they will swing it lore-wise, if Malekith is still trying to destroy the High Elves, why would we have Dark/High/Wood Elf alliance? It's noted that Malekith is working with Teclis, and Arial with Allariel (She also has ties with Morathi) but they better have some damn good fluff to justify this!
So psyched for this as a high elf player. Although the competitive scene really does not need a combined elf list. I hope that doesn't turn out to be true. For pretty much the reasons thedarkavenger stated, lol.
There are reports that this book will allow you to do a force of All three Elves books, whereas Tyrion and another elf are leading those that don't join Malekith.... apparently Tyrion draws the widowmaker.... its being suggested that Tyrion is actually the bad guy, and that Malekith, being direct blood of Anerion somehow plays a part in stopping the impending doom.
.... also... its being mentioned that "Khaine leads the elves that survive".
All I know is that if Malekith is the leader of a force that can select from all 3 elven armies, and is actually the savior and phoenix king throne claimant, then its like the writers springboarded right into muh brizain and gave me the story i was always hoping for.
I cannot wait for this gak!
Also - magic changing a lot. Every lore gaining a spell that is known by all level 3 or higher wizards ; if successfully cast, it can't be dispelled by reports. Interesting.
Lots of interesting stuff here if this link has not been given yet:
.... my mind is reeling with possibilities.... like... there's so many stupid friggin combinations if you can do an Elves Undivided list, and that appears to be becoming a thing. Glad i've been quietly amassing a sizeable dark and wood elf force to go with my high elves.
I know what you mean.... i'm spinning through my 3 books right now, and it's just absurd some of the things you can do.
I am wondering if it will be a nearly undivided montage like the previous two end times, or if it will be more restrained. I dunno... as much as i love the idea, i know my opponents are going to get REAL sick of some of the horsegak i can pull off in an elves undivided list.
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature
Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature
Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
If they do that, then all elf armies will feature Teclis, as he becomes the only model in any of the 3 books who can do anything to compete with Nagash and KFA.
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature
Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
If they do that, then all elf armies will feature Teclis, as he becomes the only model in any of the 3 books who can do anything to compete with Nagash and KFA.
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature
Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
If they do that, then all elf armies will feature Teclis, as he becomes the only model in any of the 3 books who can do anything to compete with Nagash and KFA.
Its all speculation until the 29th
and no not all elf armies will have teclis.
So. How do elf armies deal with models like Nagash and KFA without them?
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
If they do that, then all elf armies will feature Teclis, as he becomes the only model in any of the 3 books who can do anything to compete with Nagash and KFA.
Its all speculation until the 29th
and no not all elf armies will have teclis.
So. How do elf armies deal with models like Nagash and KFA without them?
Probably the upgraded version of Malekith that will be in this book. And many of the 22 or so new spells.
Namiel's right, we can't accurately make any calls on that without actually having the book in hand and seeing what new toys are available.
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature
Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
If they do that, then all elf armies will feature Teclis, as he becomes the only model in any of the 3 books who can do anything to compete with Nagash and KFA.
Its all speculation until the 29th
and no not all elf armies will have teclis.
So. How do elf armies deal with models like Nagash and KFA without them?
Lots of bolt throwers..........and direct damage spells burning up his dispel dice
thedarkavenger wrote: I can finally run an eight bolt thrower army, with warlocks, a BOTWD, and Phoenixes.
I soooooo look forward to never playing this gak
- Salvage
Bolt throwers from whatever book should still be considered bolt throwers and still have their normal max's. I doubt it will say that and people will do it but thats just my opinion.
TanKoL wrote: We didn't hear much about Morathi, and she's a finecast miniature
Just sayin ...
If they kill off Morathi, I quit end times.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
I could see them doing that. Her devotion to slaanesh and all.....maybe maliketh gains some support from high elf factions by eliminating her bring her followers further under his control.
If they do that, then all elf armies will feature Teclis, as he becomes the only model in any of the 3 books who can do anything to compete with Nagash and KFA.
Its all speculation until the 29th
and no not all elf armies will have teclis.
So. How do elf armies deal with models like Nagash and KFA without them?
Lots of bolt throwers..........and direct damage spells burning up his dispel dice
Oh, you mean those bolt throwers that wound on 5s for single shots and 6s for multishots. And those direct damages that wound on 6s. SURE. That'll be considered a good method when pigs fly.
He's T7 with a 4+ armour and a 4+ ward. If you don't kill him in one turn, you've just wasted power dice/shots.
thedarkavenger wrote: I can finally run an eight bolt thrower army, with warlocks, a BOTWD, and Phoenixes.
I soooooo look forward to never playing this gak
- Salvage
Bolt throwers from whatever book should still be considered bolt throwers and still have their normal max's. I doubt it will say that and people will do it but thats just my opinion.
High elves are rare. Dark elves are specials. I am listing the normal max limitations. 4 special and 4 rare.
And I am saying that 8 bolt throwers is stupid regardless. IMO a bolt thrower is a bolt thrower weather it be special or rare and unit restrictions should reflect.
Morathi on metal is the only thing Dark Elves have that can deal with Nagash and Karl Franz.
What about all your other posts on how you've broken end times? How if they combine elves that's it you've already broken it? Seriously stop crying doom & gloom & saying how warhammer is dead & you'll quit. Be a better player & find a way to deal with it.
Really, leave, you won't be missed. I'll keep playing the game & I can always just say "Hey man, can you not bring X, I don't have a real answer" or I can try fighting an uphill battle. In tournaments if it's truly that broken it'll get comped.
Besides that we know NOTHING until the book is released. Maybe the magic rework does something. Maybe the big Khaine model can do it. Seriously stop being a howler monkey.
We know Malekith is getting new rules which will more than likely be a combined profile with a dragon, and potentially Tyrion too (with the Sword of Khaine perhaps).
I imagine they will be more than a match for Karl Franz Ascended or Nagash
I really need to save up for book 4 if it turns out to be skaven.
Hopefully christmas money (if i even get any) will really help with this.
Oh and i'm not looking forward to possibly combined elves. They're bad enough by themselves esp. with all the fast cavalry and magical fast cavalry. Chances are you haven't fought em if you don't know how bad it can be. Definitely changes the game to swamping the board, using magic and hoping shooting is enough. I dunno how warriors of chaos could beat a wood elf fast cavalry list without a flying daemon prince or something and some magic. Nothing they do can catch up to the elves and they have no shooting for the most part.
My guess is the lack of a new Malekith model = he doesn't survive the war.
Also, it seems to be that the combined elf LISTS will not be all inclusive. We know there are three factions - Malekiths, Tyrions, and the "survivors". Clearly there is rather considerable support for Malekith across the three factions, but notice that Tyrion is now the avatar of Khaine? Know who worships Khaine? Wych elves, amongst others...
I think GW is going to do a better job balancing this than you think.
So no new models for the elven release because no characters survive the book that's a shame.
Wonder when they squat the current elves to make the new survivor elves (Trade Mark) who live on.
Also from what I have heard O&G and Dwarf players should be getting nervous as any generic tropes that cannot protected will be going the same way as stuff without models. But at least there getting a more dignified send off than being eaten by nids.
They aren't going to squat O&G and Dwarfs. Those are 2 of the most iconic races in all fantasy.
Plus it's not like they're low sellers. The new dwarf release was extremely successful plus both books have featured O&G fairly decenlty having them involved in at least 1 major engagement.
Interesting..I have a theory that Morathi hexed the Pheonix Throne to deliberately twist her son to darkness. I wonder what the truth of the matter will be?
I'm very keen to see how Morathi fits into this, especially following the little tangent in the new Dark Elf book that describes her little crush on Tyrion.
Morathi backing Tyrion, as he is becoming more and more Aenerion-esque seems a possibility. As is the Cult of Khaine and Hellebron teaming up with big T now that he is the Avatar of Khaine.
The prophecy surrounding Malekith's demise at the hands of a 'male sorcerer' would be a tad too predictable if that turned out to be Teclis... I'm guessing a surprise is in store there. Will be good to see Alith Anar get some screen-time too.
I know my heart is going to be hurting after this one.
Seriously time to go buy more brolocks. Also more vampires. Nagash summons a vampire with forbidden lore and now has lore masters just wandering the streets everywhere.
I'll reserve judgement until I try it, but this seems a tad bit out there...
Also 4d6 magic does that mean 2d6 dispel? How does this affect reign of chaos?
Just a thought... What if these are like chaos ascendant and SCENARIO SPECIFIC only?
I mean come on Chaos Ascendant is pretty ridiculous but also scenario specific, if so it wouldn't be so bad but a fun way to change up games if you wanted.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: Just a thought... What if these are like chaos ascendant and SCENARIO SPECIFIC only?
I mean come on Chaos Ascendant is pretty ridiculous but also scenario specific, if so it wouldn't be so bad but a fun way to change up games if you wanted.
I dont know. 50% lords and heros made it to the brb....................
As am I. I can see it being just the new norm or a scenario specific. But if it's the new norm there will probably be an increase in dispel dice as well. I can't see them doing 4d6 power & 1d6 dispel. I mean at that point you've just removed dwarfs from competitive play.
As for loremaster everyone that may be scenario specific.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: As am I. I can see it being just the new norm or a scenario specific. But if it's the new norm there will probably be an increase in dispel dice as well. I can't see them doing 4d6 power & 1d6 dispel. I mean at that point you've just removed dwarfs from competitive play.
As for loremaster everyone that may be scenario specific.
The way storm or magic was that you got the highest 2 of the 4d6 but what this said was that both sides got the same dice
Welp if this is not scenario specific I am buying a bray shaman Death magic, a small bunker for him. a few units of horrrors and few lvl 1 of metal, and if gateway doesn't kill them final tranny will. Maybe fateweaver for the lols.
That doesn't sound fun either. now nagash is even more powerful as we have the same dice, but I have a +5+d3 to cast & a +5 to cast. Meanwhile you have a -1 to cast from my balefire...
Giving both sides the same dice would gimp magic too hard imo. The game of the magic phase is trying to bait your opponent into using their dispel dice early so you can force through your spells you REALLY want.
That doesn't sound fun either. now nagash is even more powerful as we have the same dice, but I have a +5+d3 to cast & a +5 to cast. Meanwhile you have a -1 to cast from my balefire...
Giving both sides the same dice would gimp magic too hard imo. The game of the magic phase is trying to bait your opponent into using their dispel dice early so you can force through your spells you REALLY want.
Gimp magic? With the 4d6, I can get off two purple suns and a black horror. And then my actual mages start casting!
If you have 4d6 dice & I have an equal number of dispel dice, given we both have lvl 4s we are on equal footing to cast.
Currently the caster almost always has more dice than the dispeller. This allows more spells to get through. If you even those dice, not counting for IF, there will be fewer spells actually cast.
Which would you rather have 14 dice & I have 14. Or you have 7 and I have 4? Assuming perfectly average 2d6 rolls of 7. Not accounting for the odds of IF me having 7 and you having 4 allows me to statistically get off more spells as I have a dice advantage.
iirc the odds of getting IF is around 27% on 6 dice. Should you get IF on ONE spell, I know out dice you by 6. Meaning I can stop almost any spell I want to.
If you have 4d6 dice & I have an equal number of dispel dice, given we both have lvl 4s we are on equal footing to cast.
Currently the caster almost always has more dice than the dispeller. This allows more spells to get through. If you even those dice, not counting for IF, there will be fewer spells actually cast.
Which would you rather have 14 dice & I have 14. Or you have 7 and I have 4? Assuming perfectly average 2d6 rolls of 7. Not accounting for the odds of IF me having 7 and you having 4 allows me to statistically get off more spells as I have a dice advantage.
iirc the odds of getting IF is around 27% on 6 dice. Should you get IF on ONE spell, I know out dice you by 6. Meaning I can stop almost any spell I want to.
Sorry that's about 26.3% miscast on 6d6.
When I roll an average of 14 dice, I can safely 4 dice one purple sun and 5 dice the others. This will result in Morathi's going off, one (Probably)irresistible and one dispel. On rough calculations. Even Nagash can't stop them all.
Also my argument isn't what you can CAST but what I canDISPEL. So how does only 1 get dispelled?
Maybe you missed the part where I am under the impression for namiel that both caster & dispeller have the SAME NUMBER of dice.
Except I have an equal chance at stopping them. For every 4 dice you throw I can also throw 4. For every 5 you throw I can also throw 5.
So let's say you throw 4, you have a 13% IF / Miscast chance.
if you throw 5 this goes up to 19.6. Still not a great chance.
14d6 generate on average 49 points worth of magical power. This means I have 49 points worth of magical dispel. Not accounting for special characters because gak gets wonky and I'm not a math major, the dispeller wins ties.
Also let's say you IF that 4 dice spell. Now for your next 2 spells you throw 5 dice, I throw 6 because I have a dice advantage over you.
Working on straight numbers magic would be gimped because the dispell dice receives an imbalanced boost. Power gains 2d6 dice, dispel gains 3d6.
It's a scale. if one side of the scale has 2d6 and the other has 1d6 the scale is imbalanced. If you then add 2d6 to the cast side & 3d6 to the dispell side the scales are balanced. You have given an advantage to the dispel, this has taken the advantage AWAY from casting, therefore casting has been gimped. If you have 28.5 and I have 14 you are stronger by 14. If you have 49 and I have 49 we are EQUAL, ok so technically you were't gimped but you have been made less effective by me being buffed to be more effective at stopping you.
Not to mention what happens if you IF & lose power dice, meaning I have a bigger advantage & reducing the chance of further IFs. Also yes I am aware brolocks don't miscast like normal but I'm talking in general not specifics for particular armies.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: Also my argument isn't what you can CAST but what I canDISPEL. So how does only 1 get dispelled?
Maybe you missed the part where I am under the impression for namiel that both caster & dispeller have the SAME NUMBER of dice.
Except I have an equal chance at stopping them. For every 4 dice you throw I can also throw 4. For every 5 you throw I can also throw 5.
So let's say you throw 4, you have a 13% IF / Miscast chance.
if you throw 5 this goes up to 19.6. Still not a great chance.
14d6 generate on average 49 points worth of magical power. This means I have 49 points worth of magical dispel. Not accounting for special characters because gak gets wonky and I'm not a math major, the dispeller wins ties.
Also let's say you IF that 4 dice spell. Now for your next 2 spells you throw 5 dice, I throw 6 because I have a dice advantage over you.
Working on straight numbers magic would be gimped because the dispell dice receives an imbalanced boost. Power gains 2d6 dice, dispel gains 3d6.
It's a scale. if one side of the scale has 2d6 and the other has 1d6 the scale is imbalanced. If you then add 2d6 to the cast side & 3d6 to the dispell side the scales are balanced. You have given an advantage to the dispel, this has taken the advantage AWAY from casting, therefore casting has been gimped. If you have 28.5 and I have 14 you are stronger by 14. If you have 49 and I have 49 we are EQUAL, ok so technically you were't gimped but you have been made less effective by me being buffed to be more effective at stopping you.
Not to mention what happens if you IF & lose power dice, meaning I have a bigger advantage & reducing the chance of further IFs. Also yes I am aware brolocks don't miscast like normal but I'm talking in general not specifics for particular armies.
Okay. For argument's sake, say I roll 14 dice.
Warlocks 5 dice a purple sun. Averages say it's 2 4s, and 3 3s. That's a 19. You then throw 4 dice with your level 4 to stop it.
The second unit does the same thing. Averages dictate that it's the other average. 3 4s and 2 3s. That's a 20. You then throw 5 dice. You can stop it.
With my last 4 dice. Morathi Purple suns. She gets the first average. That's 23(assuming she rolls a 2 for her bonus.) On average dice, that's either a 21 or a 22.
i think you done goofed in your math let me see if I can fix it. Also if you're going to claim morathi I claim nagash. Not accounting for special characters magic is still gimped.
So you throw 5 dice, I throw 4. You have a 19 I have a 19. Dice totals are Power:9 Dispell 10 with a lvl 4 this goes through 18 to 19
You throw 5 I throw 5. You avg 19.5 (17.5+2) I average 22.5 (17.5+5) Dice totals are now Power: 4 Dispell 5 Even on a lvl 4 I win (17.5 vs 21.5)
Morathi throws 4, scores an avg of 14 + her lvl 4 is 18 plus her bonus (2) is 20 where do you get to 23?. I throw 5 Dice to stop it. Avg is 17.5 + my lvl 5 is 22.5 I stop you by 2.5 on average. Even on a lvl 4 I stop you by 1.5.
So in your system you get through ONE spell by a power margin of ONE. Against most armies, against anyone with a lvl 5 you get NOTHING... good day sir!
Now let's say we keep using the old non gimped system.
You have 7 I have 4. Brolocks 3 dice a spell. It either goes off or I throw 2 dice to stop it. (x-1 as you had) You avg 12.5 even with nagash at +5 I only get 12. You win by .5.
now morathi uses her 4 dice to cast purple sun and I only have 2 to stop it. Morathi averages 20 I average 12 with nagash. you win again by a margin of 8
In the old system you get 2 spells off on average. I don't see how you can look at those numbers & still think this change is better for casters...
Even using your own "arguments sake" in one case you get NO spells off, in the other you clearly get one spell off, possibly 2. By a much wider margin.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At this point I have mathematically proven multiple ways (dice differential, total power differential, broken down into individual casts)
At this point if you still believe 4d6 both is better for the caster than 2d6 vs 1d6 I cannot help you as you are arguing with numbers.
Acardia wrote: Welp if this is not scenario specific I am buying a bray shaman Death magic, a small bunker for him. a few units of horrrors and few lvl 1 of metal, and if gateway doesn't kill them final tranny will. Maybe fateweaver for the lols.
"Final Tranny" - the most horrific spell in the warhammer universe lol
Spell: Final Tranny
Type: Hex
Range: 36", single model.
Description: Target must take an immediate initiative save or magically have their gender (and attire) immediately 'augmented'.
Models who fail this test must take a subsequent leadership test at the start of every round at a -4 modifier, or be forced to make an immediate flee action towards the nearest table edge to represent them running in shame as they are laughed off the battlefield by both armies.
Btw does anybody else find the "We've all been living a lie" ad for GW's main site on the khaine book to be hilarious? It sounds too much like all the elves have finally come out of the closet .
The "real" paper White Dwarf looks so much better than the stupid e-Book version which is all I can get. I was actually confused there for a second thinking it was photos of the book III itself.
Hey, Unbound Elf army sounds cool to me, as long as they let other armies keep up. My hope is to eventually see some of the others get together: Dwarfs & Ogres, Skaven & Orcs & Goblins? Any indication that there will be only 3 books in this "End Times" series? If not, then I reckon GW will keep giving us ways to spend our money on new armies.
Rumors indicate 4 or 5 books, Brettonia and Empire are all but confirmed to be combined into one list (some believe Dwarves will also be folded in with them). Ogres/Skaven/Orcs are a bit up in the air, its believed the next book will focus on Skaven so we'll see what happens, though I wouldnt expect to see them folded in with another list given that Skaven dont have the same issues as some of the other elements of the gsme (being poor sales and undefensible IP)
Morathi joins Tyrion, she dies too, treacherous bitch.
Judging by the WD previews, etc. it seems like they do a good job of portraying Malekith as something other than a mustache twirling villain, not necessarily a hero mind you, but definitely a sympathetic sort of pseudo-anti-hero.
Spell: Final Tranny
Type: Hex
Range: 36", single model.
Description: Target must take an immediate initiative save or magically have their gender (and attire) immediately 'augmented'. Models who fail this test must take a subsequent leadership test at the start of every round at a -4 modifier, or be forced to make an immediate flee action towards the nearest table edge to represent them running in shame as they are laughed off the battlefield by both armies.
Incredibly ill informed comments. Sad to see such ignorance on Dakka.
@Monders,
Really? It's not ill informed it's a joke.
Several pages have been leaked. Combined Lists, new spells, stats for alarielle, tyrion, malekith, imrik. PM me for details due to forum rules I cannot post them here.
Judging by the WD previews, etc. it seems like they do a good job of portraying Malekith as something other than a mustache twirling villain, not necessarily a hero mind you, but definitely a sympathetic sort of pseudo-anti-hero.
"When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse."
So tell me @monders and @Vetril, at what stage did you ask me what the intent of my post was before labeling me ignorant?
I was indeed making a joke. It is rather comical (and fitting, seeing as Slannesh is in fact transvestite) that a Slanneshi spell could turn a big tough Orc Warboss about to yell out a giant "WAAGH", suddenly into an Orcette(?), complete with over-the-top ridiculous chainmail bikini and laughed off the battlefield by his own army. Or having a sleek and sexy dark elf witch transformed turned into a dude, suddenly feeling very vulnerable surrounded by enraged brides of Khaine. If any of you have ever played the Baulder's Gate series, I am thinking of Edwin/Edwina's fate and the similarly comical scene it created.
If you would like me to retract the post I will. The joke was made in good faith, not aimed to deride anyone's sexual preferences or identity.
Real-world prejudice is a thing and not something I was attempting here. However I would advise on growing a thicker skin when it comes to something as innocent as a joke about a magical gender-changing spell (featuring gender-changing daemons) in a game of painted toy models before decrying it as ignorant and distasteful.
iLLiTHiD wrote: (and fitting, seeing as Slannesh is in fact transvestite)
Slaanesh is a true hermaphrodite, NOT a transvestite.
Regardless, it's still insulting and in ill taste to refer to transvestites(or transgenders or transsexuals) as "tranny".
In addition, you seem to be confused by the terminology. A Transvestite is simply someone who dresses in the style and manner of the opposite gender. What you're describing would be a forced sex change.
Regardless, it's still insulting and in ill taste to refer to transvestites(or transgenders or transsexuals) as "tranny".
Oh, I thought he meant final tranny as in transformation. Shows where you're mind is . But seriously everyone just take a chill pill & let this blow over.
See, when I see people using 'tranny' as an insult for transgenders, I just like to remind them that the logical term for people who aren't transgender is there fore 'cissy'.
That said, transvestites? It's all about the clothes. Slaanesh is a hermaphrodite in the truest sense of the word. He isn't trans* in any way, shape or form, because his gender identity matches his physical gender at all times - as a daemon, his physical form is entirely defined by his self image.
iLLiTHiD wrote: [i]I was indeed making a joke. It is rather comical (and fitting, seeing as Slannesh is in fact transvestite) that a Slanneshi spell could turn a big tough Orc Warboss about to yell out a giant "WAAGH", suddenly into an Orcette(?), complete with over-the-top ridiculous chainmail bikini and laughed off the battlefield by his own army...
If you would like me to retract the post I will. The joke was made in good faith, not aimed to deride anyone's sexual preferences or identity.
Real-world prejudice is a thing and not something I was attempting here. However I would advise on growing a thicker skin when it comes to something as innocent as a joke about a magical gender-changing spell (featuring gender-changing daemons) in a game of painted toy models before decrying it as ignorant and distasteful.
You called it "the most horrific spell". You really need to study Carlin and Pryor some more.
AT ANY RATE!! The new lists look amazing. I might have to shell out for this book.
Is there going to be a big kit for this release? So far there has not been any new miniatures. I can't remember in what order the previous two releases came in (books or minis first)
So Asuryan is basically totally chill with how Malekith handled not being elected phoenix king? Because with the past 6K years of Druchii history, i find that very odd.
Once you get around to reading the book you will be made aware that Malekith was intended to be Phoenix King all along and his being burned, etc. was the result of a treacherous plot, which kind of justifies the civil war he started... also, Asuryan might be dead.
ancraig wrote: So Asuryan is basically totally chill with how Malekith handled not being elected phoenix king? Because with the past 6K years of Druchii history, i find that very odd.
The explanation is that Asuryan was evil all along and Malekith was always his favourite. The whole Naggaroth thing was kind of like a make-up exam because he failed the first test.
chaos0xomega wrote: Once you get around to reading the book you will be made aware that Malekith was intended to be Phoenix King all along and his being burned, etc. was the result of a treacherous plot, which kind of justifies the civil war he started... also, Asuryan might be dead.
Damn, this Khaine book really has huge consequences on the lore of WHFB. While I'm usually for changes, i'm wondering if they're not going a bit too far. I was excited with the changes that the Nagash book brought, but I'm not sure I like these ones, It seems like it will destroy a lot of the charm and character of the setting, with Ulthuan and Naggaroth annhilated and all the elves back together in Athel Loren. i mean, how come you can justify corsair in Athel Loren, since the're no seaport in there?
i guess we'll have to see what happens in the last 2 books, but I'm starting to get worried for the future of the game and setting.
chaos0xomega wrote: Once you get around to reading the book you will be made aware that Malekith was intended to be Phoenix King all along and his being burned, etc. was the result of a treacherous plot, which kind of justifies the civil war he started... also, Asuryan might be dead.
Please ignore this.
Or dont.
Spoiler:
Unrelated, Richter Kless, author of the Liber Chaotica, and Drago (yes, THAT Drago) both pop up in the story, which are the coolest thing ever to me because of how non obvious it is.
streetsamurai wrote: Damn, this Khaine book really has huge consequences on the lore of WHFB. While I'm usually for changes, i'm wondering if they're not going a bit too far. I was excited with the changes that the Nagash book brought, but I'm not sure I like these ones, It seems like it will destroy a lot of the charm and character of the setting, with Ulthuan and Naggaroth annhilated and all the elves back together in Athel Loren. i mean, how come you can justify corsair in Athel Loren, since the're no seaport in there?
i guess we'll have to see what happens in the last 2 books, but I'm starting to get worried for the future of the game and setting.
Raiders doesn't necessarily mean seafaring pirates.
streetsamurai wrote: those guys whole aesthetics are based on them being seafaring. Hell their banner is an octopus. Not exactly the kind of creature you find in a forest
Their aesthetic is that of reavers. The only reason they're seafaring is because their homeland is so far afield that they can only access it by oceans. As such, they're pirate-y. Their whole thing is that of reavers though.
streetsamurai wrote: those guys whole aesthetics are based on them being seafaring. Hell their banner is an octopus. Not exactly the kind of creature you find in a forest
Their aesthetic is that of reavers. The only reason they're seafaring is because their homeland is so far afield that they can only access it by oceans. As such, they're pirate-y. Their whole thing is that of reavers though.
yeah maybe, but unless they remake the miniatures (and they won't), they look piratey-y.Same thing for lothern seaguard. Their aesthetics doesnt make sense if they dont leave near a sea or ocean, Or the Charybdis. Them looking like that and living in a forest doesn't make sense at all.
streetsamurai wrote: those guys whole aesthetics are based on them being seafaring. Hell their banner is an octopus. Not exactly the kind of creature you find in a forest
Their aesthetic is that of reavers. The only reason they're seafaring is because their homeland is so far afield that they can only access it by oceans. As such, they're pirate-y. Their whole thing is that of reavers though.
yeah maybe, but unless they remake the miniatures (and they won't), they look piratey-y.Same thing for lothern seaguard. Their aesthetics doesnt make sense if they dont leave near a sea or ocean, Or the Charybdis. Them looking like that and living in a forest doesn't make sense at all.
Don't reallt think it's something that's arguable
You're arguing aesthetics over purpose for the corsairs. In the past three editions, they've not been referred to as pirates, but as raiders. I can understand where you're coming from, but only one corsairish model has any parts that resemble pirates. That's the Fleetmaster.
sorry, but you're pretty much wrong on this. The corsair aquatic theme was always present. I have the one from the 4th edition and the codex from this era. They were always themed as pirate. They have sea dragon cloak, were sailing all over the world on black ark etc. hell, the reason at that time that I liked them was because they were pirate.
I'm not sure if i'm understanding your point clearly, cause right now, no offense, but i must admit that it don't really seem to make any sense.
streetsamurai wrote: sorry, but you're pretty much wrong on this. The corsair aquatic theme was always present. I have the one from the 4th edition and the codex from this era. They were always themed as pirate. They have sea dragon cloak, were sailing all over the world on black ark etc. hell, the reason at that time that I liked them was because they were pirate.
I'm not sure if i'm understanding your point clearly, cause right now, no offense, but i must admit that it don't really seem to make any sense.
You're claiming that corsairs were, and are, pirates. This isn't true. They have not been called such for at least two books. The sea dragon cloaks and black arcs are because of the fact that provided excellent defensive value, and they raided from naggaroth. They're just raiders. Or as the book calls them, reavers.
Guys, they have access to the worldroot now, its not so farfetched that theres an island with a fprest somewhere where they can establish a port.
As a sidenote, both raiders and reavers (as well as corsairs) are terms originally used to refer to pirates, arguing otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.
Are the Black Arks not a thing now, then? Have they all been destroyed?
'cause, you know, the Corsairs are the Dark Elves who live and work on the Black Arks, so just because Malekith's chair is in Athel Loren now doesn't mean that that the Arks aren't still in need of crew. Naggarond was landlocked too, after all.
Well theres only one mentioned over the course of the entire book (that I recall), and by the end of the book that one is most definitely not a thing anymore.
streetsamurai wrote: those guys whole aesthetics are based on them being seafaring. Hell their banner is an octopus. Not exactly the kind of creature you find in a forest
Their aesthetic is that of reavers. The only reason they're seafaring is because their homeland is so far afield that they can only access it by oceans. As such, they're pirate-y. Their whole thing is that of reavers though.
yeah maybe, but unless they remake the miniatures (and they won't), they look piratey-y.Same thing for lothern seaguard. Their aesthetics doesnt make sense if they dont leave near a sea or ocean, Or the Charybdis. Them looking like that and living in a forest doesn't make sense at all.
Don't reallt think it's something that's arguable
You're arguing aesthetics over purpose for the corsairs. In the past three editions, they've not been referred to as pirates, but as raiders. I can understand where you're coming from, but only one corsairish model has any parts that resemble pirates. That's the Fleetmaster.
I'm going to have to disagree. They're kind of explicitly pirates.
Corsair : noun
1.a fast ship used for piracy.
2.a pirate, especially formerly of the Barbary Coast.
The Wood Elf Realm of Tirsyth is not only where they nexus of the World Roots is but also on a large river as are several others -given the size of Old world rivers ocean going vessles may well be able to navigate these.....
Ocean going vessels are capable of navigating most rivers in the real world as well, its just a question of their being adequate port facilities for them.
streetsamurai wrote: those guys whole aesthetics are based on them being seafaring. Hell their banner is an octopus. Not exactly the kind of creature you find in a forest
Their aesthetic is that of reavers. The only reason they're seafaring is because their homeland is so far afield that they can only access it by oceans. As such, they're pirate-y. Their whole thing is that of reavers though.
yeah maybe, but unless they remake the miniatures (and they won't), they look piratey-y.Same thing for lothern seaguard. Their aesthetics doesnt make sense if they dont leave near a sea or ocean, Or the Charybdis. Them looking like that and living in a forest doesn't make sense at all.
Don't reallt think it's something that's arguable
You're arguing aesthetics over purpose for the corsairs. In the past three editions, they've not been referred to as pirates, but as raiders. I can understand where you're coming from, but only one corsairish model has any parts that resemble pirates. That's the Fleetmaster.
I'm going to have to disagree. They're kind of explicitly pirates.
Corsair : noun
1.a fast ship used for piracy.
2.a pirate, especially formerly of the Barbary Coast.
You misunderstand he difference between a name and a descriptive term. The use of corsairs that you supplied is a term used to describe a boat or a type of pirate.
These are called corsairs. Nothing more. As for reaver. It's a noun of them reave. Which means to plunder/pillagers. That is at corsairs are. To say that they are anything other than reavers is makingup a unit.
name: Noun
1. A word or words by which an entity is designated and distinguished from others.
2. A word or group of words used to describe or evaluate, often disparagingly.
He always has been! You've been believing revisionist historians for too long...
Here! Here! That's what I've been arguing with my HE friend for over a decade...glad to see my point has been validated after all this time!
Damned separatists!
chaos0xomega wrote:Ocean going vessels are capable of navigating most rivers in the real world as well, its just a question of their being adequate port facilities for them.
Regarding that...I wonder if the elves permanently relocated to Athel Loren, would there be any of those underworld waterways located in the mountain ranges near Athel Loren similar to the ones that the dark elves so frequently used in Naggaroth to launch surprise attacks from? You could still maintain a navy that way, without having to hold territory on a coastline.
Further to that speculation, in a post-End Times world where the elven remnant is less of a grand empire and more several lesser kingdoms and city-states scattered around the world, what would happen to the elven colonies? Which side would they join in the civil war? Do they even know what has happened to the homeland? Will they split off and form their own independent city-states?
I could see in that sort of world that old alliances collapse and new ones are formed, elves could very much become an insular, reclusive society (in the manner of the wood elves more broadly), but being more fickle and capricious...sometimes supporting the civilized world, sometimes making attacks of opportunity to raid and pillage supplies for their dwindling numbers...very much like how the Elder operate in 40k.
chaos0xomega wrote: I thought the elven colonies were abandoned long ago save for athel loren which is the only one that survived (and became a separate entity)
Reading the Lexicanium leads me to believe there were several HE colonies, although their sources are only as recent as 7th edition. Does anyone know if they are mentioned in 8th?
chaos0xomega wrote: I thought the elven colonies were abandoned long ago save for athel loren which is the only one that survived (and became a separate entity)
Various fortresses as noted in post above, plus there are Elves in the Drakwald
name: Noun
1. A word or words by which an entity is designated and distinguished from others.
2. A word or group of words used to describe or evaluate, often disparagingly.
Which dictionary did you get that name from? Because, I'd hate to burst your bubble but an adjective is what we call descriptive terms in any level of English. A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.
Also, having checked every edition of the dark elf book I own, I've yet to find a reference for corsairs being anything other than reavers. So please. Provide all the effect you can to prove hat they're pirates.
As to the whole corsair/reaver thing...surely the corsairs are a means to an ends? Dark elven economics is almost purely based on raiding and pillaging - I recall seeing some statement to that effect in the DE Army book. Now Looking at Naggaroth, aside from the Chaos Wastes to the north (far too hazardous) and the Lizardmen to the south (Lustria is too long/difficult a journey overland) it would leave the elves with naval transport as the most efficient and viable means for movement around the world.
Without sounding too obvious, having a raiding/pillaging/bandit society and being geographically isolated by two oceans means ipso facto your raiders are of the nautical variety - aka pirates. If by some means, such as the End Times, that the dark elves found themselves no longer based on Naggaroth but say, Athel Loren, and they maintained their bandit society/economy, then you would no necessarily require your 'corsairs' to be sea-faring.
I've developed some fluff for a DE army that was based around Araby and the Southlands that was heavily into the land-sea banditry in a Bedouin style society - raiding and pillaging. If for some reason they were striking inland to raid a caravan route etc, my corsairs were now bandits...sea dragon cloaks can become 'sand' dragon cloaks, useful to shield ones' self from a desert storm as well as a sea storm.
Anyhow, to summarise, the corsairs are the equivalent of pirates yes, but they only adopt that as a means to an end - pillaging. If the dark elves were based in the Old World, their society may no longer require their raiders to be sea-borne. I would like to see where the DE are at (if indeed they continue to exist as a separate political/cultural entity) post End Times.
Hate to burst your bubble but dictionary.com & Meriam-Webster both agree with me. I think Meriam-Webster is more qualified than you to say whether or not a noun can be descriptive.
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thedarkavenger wrote: A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.
Also I will accept this as you admiting to being wrong on the pirate debate.
IF a name provides a definition of what something is
AND Corsair is defined as pirate.
THEN the name of the unit defines them as being pirates.
Hate to burst your bubble but dictionary.com & Meriam-Webster both agree with me. I think Meriam-Webster is more qualified than you to say whether or not a noun can be descriptive.
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thedarkavenger wrote: A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.
Also I will accept this as you admiting to being wrong on the pirate debate.
IF a name provides a definition of what something is
AND Corsair is defined as pirate.
THEN the name of the unit defines them as being pirates.
Description and definition are two different things. They are defined as corsairs, but their actions aren't. You may claim that they're pirates. But in fact, it is merely a name given to them to reflect the fact that they're seafaring reavers. Which may be interpreted, albeit very loosely, as a pirate. You are mistaking the common name, of corsair, for the proper name, of Corsair. This is a fairly common mistake. The simplest way of explaining it is the indian ministry of home affairs. Whilst their ministry is called the ministry of home affairs, it's actual name is The Ministry of Home affairs. This makes it a unique entity. As does the the name of the Corsairs in the book.
But nowhere in at least 4 editions of books, have they been described, or defined, as pirates.
Hate to burst your bubble but dictionary.com & Meriam-Webster both agree with me. I think Meriam-Webster is more qualified than you to say whether or not a noun can be descriptive.
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thedarkavenger wrote: A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.
Also I will accept this as you admiting to being wrong on the pirate debate.
IF a name provides a definition of what something is
AND Corsair is defined as pirate.
THEN the name of the unit defines them as being pirates.
But nowhere in at least 4 editions of books, have they been described, or defined, as pirates.
Except you just admitted they were defined as pirates...
Hate to burst your bubble but dictionary.com & Meriam-Webster both agree with me. I think Meriam-Webster is more qualified than you to say whether or not a noun can be descriptive.
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thedarkavenger wrote: A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.
Also I will accept this as you admiting to being wrong on the pirate debate.
IF a name provides a definition of what something is
AND Corsair is defined as pirate.
THEN the name of the unit defines them as being pirates.
But nowhere in at least 4 editions of books, have they been described, or defined, as pirates.
Except you just admitted they were defined as pirates...
No. They are defined by the proper name that GW gave them. Of Corsairs. The common name means pirates.
At the end after everyone's living in Athel Loren, theres a passage about how the dark elves keep themselves amused by raiding and pillaging the remains of Brettonia. I imagine this is the corsairs doing their corsair thing, but they're probably using chariots or something instead of boats
As an aside, the friendly plaguebearer is my favourite thing in the entire book.
Micky wrote: At the end after everyone's living in Athel Loren, theres a passage about how the dark elves keep themselves amused by raiding and pillaging the remains of Brettonia. I imagine this is the corsairs doing their corsair thing, but they're probably using chariots or something instead of boats
As an aside, the friendly plaguebearer is my favourite thing in the entire book.
No. They are defined by the proper name that GW gave them. Of Corsairs. The common name means pirates.
So you're saying they are defined by the word Corsairs, but that the definition of the word Corsairs doesn't matter because you say so?
If that's the logic hoops you need to jump through because you don't want to admit you're wrong go ahead, I can't argue anymore because it has ceased being an argument at this point
No. They are defined by the proper name that GW gave them. Of Corsairs. The common name means pirates.
So you're saying they are defined by the word Corsairs, but that the definition of the word Corsairs doesn't matter because you say so?
If that's the logic hoops you need to jump through because you don't want to admit you're wrong go ahead, I can't argue anymore because it has ceased being an argument at this point
No. Corsair has two meanings. The common name, which is given to pirates. And the proper name, which is what GW have named the unit. Assuming that the common name defines the unit is tantamount to assuming the Earth turns because hamsters run in their wheels. I.E. Wrong.
They're defined by the proper name GW gave the unit. Which means nothing but what they are. Which is raiders and reavers.
If you want to argue English with me, study it more first.
Can we ignore TDA please? In every thread Ive seen him post in he picks a point of view and argues it endlessly even when hes plainly flat out wrong. Theres no point arguing facts with him, because he deals only in opinions, its just going to derail things further to continue. Dark Elves have a piratical seafaring tradition, except to TDA, who thinks they are hippie beatnicks of the sea.
thedarkavenger wrote: A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.
Also I will accept this as you admiting to being wrong on the pirate debate.
IF a name provides a definition of what something is
AND Corsair is defined as pirate.
THEN the name of the unit defines them as being pirates.
Did Dark Avenger just get "if p, then q"d?
The real question is: who cares? I'm still calling them elf pirates. I imagine the book, while completely tossing a grenade into the magic system, shakes up the major players of the world. That doesn't mean the entire rest of the world doesn't have pirate elves or elf pirates (whichever you prefer)... Plus, mentioned, like, ONCE?
chaos0xomega wrote: Can we ignore TDA please? In every thread Ive seen him post in he picks a point of view and argues it endlessly even when hes plainly flat out wrong. Theres no point arguing facts with him, because he deals only in opinions, its just going to derail things further to continue. Dark Elves have a piratical seafaring tradition, except to TDA, who thinks they are hippie beatnicks of the sea.
How am I wrong? I've posted a fact. There is a difference between a common name and Proper name. It's basic English that they teach you in primary school.
And Dark Elves have never had a piratical theme. Since the 4th ed book, it's been a raiding theme. It's nautical by coincidence.
Raider, corsair, pirate, and reaver are all synonyms. Really the only thing that makes a pirate a pirate is the fact that they raid other ships at sea, which, guess what, Dark Elves do on the norm. You need not exclusively raid at sea to be a pirate, and indeed historically there have been pirate incursions and attacks on settlements on dry land.
Give up the argument, because they are wrong. Your use of 'basic English' boils down to selectively warping linguistics and terminology to suit your needs at the expense of reality. I have literally zero idea what your issue with dark elves being pirates is, when they are, in fact, pirates, and the terms you are instead trying to apply to them are effectively interchangeable with the term "pirate"
chaos0xomega wrote:Ocean going vessels are capable of navigating most rivers in the real world as well, its just a question of their being adequate port facilities for them.
Except for where the rivers are too narrow, or not deep enough, or have too many bridges over them, or...
Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.
Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.
Fair enough, I generally consider rivers to be navigable, with stream or creek being used to descrube anything smaller, but the actual language is deceptively unclear.
Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.
Fair enough, I generally consider rivers to be navigable, with stream or creek being used to descrube anything smaller, but the actual language is deceptively unclear.
Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.
Fair enough, I generally consider rivers to be navigable, with stream or creek being used to descrube anything smaller, but the actual language is deceptively unclear.
No. They're not. Raider is synonymous with reaver. Pirate is completely unrelated.
An actual thesauraus says otherwise. Stop arguing opinions, it gives me an unfair disadvantage when Im using facts.
Once more I say provide evidence of this claim. As OED disagrees with you.
Why does it matter?
This thread is going to end up getting locked because people can't stay on topic.
Everyone is being childish.
I know I have a lower post count than.....all of you, (I'm not sure how much weight that holds around here) but you're all being petty.
you sound like children
"He said X"
"Nuh uh"
"uh huh"
"Nuh uh"
"Uh Huh"
"Prove it"
"I will"
"Nuh uh"
"Uh huh"
etc.
I was enjoying this thread until a few pages back.
You are (presumably) Grown adults (or damn near) arguing about a type of elf in a fantasy universe.....using real world tools, like the english language to try to defend your position.
WHO CARES?
I think this discussion jusy proves that not every Druchii went to Athel Loran. Some will certainly get their kicks reaving and committing piracy while raiding in a way similar to corsairs.
melkorthetonedeaf wrote: I think this discussion jusy proves that not every Druchii went to Athel Loran. Some will certainly get their kicks reaving and committing piracy while raiding in a way similar to corsairs.
There's a passage in the final pages of Khaine, after all the survivors are settled in Athel Loren, that says the druchii go pillaging and raiding the remains of Brettonia as a way of keeping themselves occupied and not fighting amongst themselves.
I was listening to the new garagegamer & apparently at black library weekend they said they had printed 2,000 more copies of Khaine than glottkin or Nagash. The demand was just overwhelming. Also paperbacks are in the works.
I was listening to the new garagegamer & apparently at black library weekend they said they had printed 2,000 more copies of Khaine than glottkin or Nagash. The demand was just overwhelming. Also paperbacks are in the works.
Nagash was printed based on the sales of sigmar's blood. It's why there were so few.
They didn't specifically say sigmars blood on the podcast but they did say "based on previous fantasy books" - paraphrased. It at least shows they did ramp up production to try & meet demand, just apparently not enough.
I was listening to the new garagegamer & apparently at black library weekend they said they had printed 2,000 more copies of Khaine than glottkin or Nagash. The demand was just overwhelming. Also paperbacks are in the works.
I call bull.
Glottkin and Nagash both did not sell out of their standard editions in the first three to five minutes of preorders.
Now, maybe they printed 2k more copies of the "Limited Edition"--because that thing stayed up for hours.
I don't see bull. Remember elves are INSANELY popular right now, more demand for elves than chaos or undead.
Also people have seen the end times 1 & 2 sell out & go to ebay for 2x. Now you have people looking to buy books for that. I know people who had their friends order them (since it was lmited 1 per) just to resell them on ebay.
Stores are more willing to order them now that they have proven successful. They were wary of book I & II because let's not forget how amazingly well Storm of magic, Sigmars blood & Triumph & Treachery sold. Nagash sold out so stores ordered more glottkin, glottkin sold out quicker so even more stores ordered khaine. It's not seen as a risky investment so now most stores are maxing out their orders.
Finally End times is picking up steam amongst players. With book I people didn't know if it was a campaign or an update but since the 50% L&H got put into a BRB errata it looks like the end times rules are here to stay so more people are willing to buy the book as we don't believe it will go away in under a year.
All this can easily justify them selling out even faster despite having 2k additional copies. Also there weren't even 2k copies of the limited edition lol. it satyed up for hours because nobody wanted to pay an extra $100 for a couple art prints. I'd rather pay double on ebay for a standard edition or wait for paperback than more than double & validate their "limited" edition
Nagash didn't sell out until two days(read: Sunday) later--and that was their normal edition selling out.
Glottkin sold out one day later(Saturday)--and that was their normal edition, again.
In both cases, the limited editions and spellcards went out of stock first.
Even with as popular as Elves are, do you really think that equates to the standard copy of the book selling out in minutes and the limited edition selling out in hours compared to Nagash and Glottkin? Especially when compared to Nagash where they sold out of the Nagash model before they sold out of books?
Nothing about that lines up with "We ordered more copies because of expected demand".
Actually yes. Remember nagash was book 1, people thought it was just a campaign supplement like storm of magic or sigmars blood & tended to ignore it as did the B&M stores. Glottkin sold out quicker because of increased interest BECAUSE nagash sold out. Now that both of these have sold out people KNOW there's demand and since the FaQ they KNOW this isn't just a one off campaign so they want to buy them.
The LEs are online only. The online stock that GW can sell is the production stock MINUS what the B&M stores order. Remember what is on the GW online store is the production run - what goes to GW stores - what goes to 3rd party stores. The more 3rd parties order, the less available onine.
There's also not a great ebay market for the limited editions. Think of it like foil magic cards. A lot of LGSs won't buy foils because they're too expensive to resell & finding a buyer is hard. Ebay is the same way, sure people will try to sell them but most people won't buy foils with the sole intent to resell because it's too small a market.
My point on more players picking up end times. During books 1 & 2 the players who got them were the players who were actively interested in end times, as a story or a specific campaign. These players are more likely to buy the collectors edition because they care about more than just the rules. Now that it looks like end times will be made official rules, a lot more players want to buy them so they can get & play the new rules. These people are less likely to want to spend the extra $100 dollars for special edition as they just want the rules & the new spells. They couldn't care less about the fluff book & therefore the special edition.
Also I forgot about new end times magic. Books 1 & 2 largely affected chaos & undead. True lore of undeath and Valten/KFA but meh. With this one magic has been completely redone and every single lore has new spells, leading more people to want to buy it.
Everything I can see market wise has shown that demand for these books just keeps going up. Also an extra 2k copies isn't much extra considering the demand. They will probably print even more of book 4. But due to lead time on books they didn't know how quick glottkin would sell out by the time Khaine was already off the presses & onto boats through customs.
Considering that the End Times spell cards themselves lasted longer than the Khaine book by several hours, that is a flawed argument.
And Books 1 & 2 had "for everyone" content as well. The Lore of Undeath is for EVERYONE, not just Undead Legions, Tomb Kings, or Vampire Counts.
Book 2 had the "cityfight" rules.
And the online stock numbers that GW have is a good yardstick as to how many books they've produced with a certain number of books being earmarked for their own shops. They also have a number that is allocated to the independents, of which those independents can place an order.
Their online stock sold out in 4 minutes here in the US. My local GW got shipped exactly three copies of the book, of which he had to basically hold them for myself, a friend of mine, and then he had a single copy to put out on the shelves which would be bought by him for himself if it was still there on Sunday.
Compare that to the nearest independent that I'm aware of that got it and had ten copies, of which they are still sitting on six.
Actually I know many people who don't buy the spell cards. Myself included. Most of my gaming group just buys 5 cent magic commons & glue the spell details to that card. Much more cost-effective.
I addressed lore of undeath. It's pretty meh outside undead armies. As for city fight it's scenario specific rules that nobody I know uses or cares about.
Yes GW earmarks books for their shops & they have a number allocated for independents but independents also get 1st dibs. If they want to order more, and exceed that earmarked number, GW dips into the online sales number that they have to meed independent retailer demands.
ONE of my local ish shops ordered nagash. 2 of them ordered glottkin & maxed out there order. All 5 of them ordered Khaine and are sold out.
If you have an independent sitting on six copies they either have a low customer base for fantasy or people don't know. Hell I'd buy them & ebay them.
You can be a cynic all you want but I've seen (and besides you) heard nothing but increase in demand for end times across the board that would be consistent with what black library said.
Glad i've been quietly amassing a sizeable dark and wood elf force to go with my high elves.
You could still maintain a navy that way, without having to hold territory on a coastline.
