Is there an imperial, loyalist counterpart similar to what abbadon is for Chaos?

I would imagine that would be Kaldor Draigo.

No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

In terms of brutishness (And cool evil-ness), probably Asterion Moloc.

In terms of military power and command, Marneus Calgar.

Asterion Calgar would be the chap you're looking for.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

Grand Master Azrael. He has power over the largest number of Space Marines in the galaxy. Every Dark Angels successor chapter is answerable to him, and if he calls on them, they will join his cause.

 tommse wrote:
Is there an imperial, loyalist counterpart similar to what abbadon is for Chaos?

Sigismund.

Creed for sure. They're both as close as you get to having complete command over their respective factions.

Sure, Abaddon is more physically capable, but then again Creed doesn't need to personally fight because Tactical Genius!

The Master of the Administratum?

According to Lexicanum, the highest military rank in the Imperium is the Lord Commander Militant, who has a seat as High Lords of Terra. He is mostly concerned with bureaucratic and administrative tasks, and military operations are handled by the Lord Commanders, who each are in charge of one of the segmentums. So those would be the closest analogues to Abaddon in terms of overall command.

Was gonna say something along the same lines. No marine has the same level of control (which is the whole point of chapters). It'd be some guard Militant/Solar.

Lord Solar Macharius. He may be dead now, but has been around within the last 600 years. He led a crusade as large as Abaddons... and actually achieved stuff - so I guess he's not the equivalent after all.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Master of the Administratum?

Whether you're being pedantic or joking it does fit better than it should.

After all while Chaos relies on evil, cunning and violence the Imperium is ultimately fed by bureaucracy. Don't care how big your thunderwolf is, if those Guard boys don't their requisition forms stamped you're going home in a body bag.

 Jape wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Master of the Administratum?

Whether you're being pedantic or joking it does fit better than it should.

After all while Chaos relies on evil, cunning and violence the Imperium is ultimately fed by bureaucracy. Don't care how big your thunderwolf is, if those Guard boys don't their requisition forms stamped you're going home in a body bag.

Why does my post suggest pedantry or jokiness?

I was being neither, thank you very much. I was posing a question in response to the OP, would it be the Master of the Administratum, as the most powerful of the High Lords.

They might not have any where near Abaddons level of combat prowess but they certainly have as much authority and power as he does.

Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jape wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Master of the Administratum?

Whether you're being pedantic or joking it does fit better than it should.

After all while Chaos relies on evil, cunning and violence the Imperium is ultimately fed by bureaucracy. Don't care how big your thunderwolf is, if those Guard boys don't their requisition forms stamped you're going home in a body bag.

Why does my post suggest pedantry or jokiness?

I was being neither, thank you very much.

Didn't mean to offend, apologies.

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

Lord Solar Macharius really is. Sure he was a normal human, conquered far more territory, and is dead, but he's the closest. Both have the huge, never ending crusade as their MO, both brought together a massive part of their faction, but still not all of it, both are charismatic leaders who lead from the front, not paper pushers, and unlike loyalist SM's who only ever have authority over their own chapters, Macharius, like Abaddon, was actually the supreme authority over his entire forces.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Aun'Va!

 Nemo of Vulkan wrote:

 tommse wrote:
Is there an imperial, loyalist counterpart similar to what abbadon is for Chaos?

Sigismund.

abbadon kills Sigismund, just saying

I'm not sure about Calgar... Does he have the far-reaching reputation and authority over his side that Abbaddon has over his? Of course, he's an important guy in the Imperium, but I'm not sure he is to the majority of Imperial forces what Abbaddon is to the Chaos side.

I think I'd vote for Creed, if anyone. Given that he's directly opposed to Abbaddon in the struggle for Cadia, and presumably has overall command over the IG (thus most of the Imperial side).

I think fluff wise, Bjorn comes the closest. While he does not lead often, it seems everyone will kneel to him and heed his words. The imperium gets all swoony when around someone who walked with a primarch.

Command wise, probably Calgar, then Logan. Calgar having the command over a huge force, and Logan having the charisma and reputation to rally those to his aid.

There is no loyalist counterpart.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Command wise, probably Calgar, then Logan. Calgar having the command over a huge force, and Logan having the charisma and reputation to rally those to his aid.

Or Commander Dante of the Blood Angels. If two other First Founding Chapters (Salamanders and Ultramarines) can agree that he should be in command of the marines on Armageddon he's certainly in the running.

The Imperium doesn't have a counterpart to Abaddon.

They would have collapsed already due to the enormous pressure they are constantly under if they had anyone that incompetent in charge of their military. Zing!

There are 2 things to consider here when discussing Abbaddon here. First is his pure physical power as a battlefield badass. My choice for his physical counter part would be Castellan Crowe. I think that in a duel he is the only Imperial loyalist who stands a chance of walking away from a fight with Abbaddon. Anybody else, and Abbaddon is just going to wreck them.

The second thing to consider is Abbaddon's political power within his chosen faction, namely Chaos Space Marines. Abbaddon only really controls the Black Legion directly for traitor legions concerned. All the other traitor legions/chapters may honor him or ignore him as they see fit to do so. Chaos is very fickle and selfish to say the least.

I would say his political clout among Chaos Space Marines is probably on par with an Imperial Subsector Commander. I would base this on account of how many troops would actually be following his orders. All of the other legion/chapter masters are going to do what is in their own best interests. And that includes prosecuting yet another crusade against the Imperium.

The Imperium has no central commander or leader (except Him) due to the Heresy, for the same reason Astartes were split into Chapters, so that no one can wield as much power as Horus did. The entire IG revolts? So, they can't go anywhere without the Navy and Marines crush the revolts planet by planet. The AdMech turns? They have no soldiers bar the Titans, who can be taken by ships, and no way to gain new resources or bodies without the people of the Imperium. The Astartes go traitor? Not enough equipment or manpower to oppose the Imperium. The Inquisition hasn't the manpower, the Assassins the mumbers or resources, the Custodes the numbers. The Navy could revolt and go places but they'd have no soldiers or army to conquer with

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

The 13th Black Crusade hasn't ended (it has, in fact, just started), and the last time they let it roll out to its conclusion the Imperium lost.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

The 13th Black Crusade hasn't ended (it has, in fact, just started), and the last time they let it roll out to its conclusion the Imperium lost.

but apparently won in space.

I would go with Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar. All are highly-esteemed commanders in their own right. However, none of them really have that whole "follow me or else" ability to muster forces like Abaddon. My vote would be for Dante though. Calgar obviously thought it was a good idea. And Grimnar probably wouldn't disagree with that either.

EDIT: I would like to say Bjorn the Fell-Handed, if they would let him do it instead of doing story time every century.

 Still Standing wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Uh, cadia isn't in the gothic sector, it's surprisingly enough in the the "Cadian Sector".

Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

SYKOJAK wrote:
There are 2 things to consider here when discussing Abbaddon here. First is his pure physical power as a battlefield badass. My choice for his physical counter part would be Castellan Crowe. I think that in a duel he is the only Imperial loyalist who stands a chance of walking away from a fight with Abbaddon. Anybody else, and Abbaddon is just going to wreck them.

The second thing to consider is Abbaddon's political power within his chosen faction, namely Chaos Space Marines. Abbaddon only really controls the Black Legion directly for traitor legions concerned. All the other traitor legions/chapters may honor him or ignore him as they see fit to do so. Chaos is very fickle and selfish to say the least.

I would say his political clout among Chaos Space Marines is probably on par with an Imperial Subsector Commander. I would base this on account of how many troops would actually be following his orders. All of the other legion/chapter masters are going to do what is in their own best interests. And that includes prosecuting yet another crusade against the Imperium.

His pure physical power and h2h counter-part would be the reborn Angel, Lord Mephiston.
As a commander, it's Lord Commander Dante. They would equal Abbaddon, IMHO.

 Tezdal wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Uh, cadia isn't in the gothic sector, it's surprisingly enough in the the "Cadian Sector".

And yet Battlefleet Gothic responded. Who would have thought the largest Sector Fleet outside of Terra would have gone to help out in a Black Crusade...

 Still Standing wrote:

 Tezdal wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Uh, cadia isn't in the gothic sector, it's surprisingly enough in the the "Cadian Sector".

And yet Battlefleet Gothic responded. Who would have thought the largest Sector Fleet outside of Terra would have gone to help out in a Black Crusade...

Regardless, the Imperium can't glass the planet. They still need the pylons on Cadia to hold the Eye of Terror in check. Abaddon's whole plan rests on detroying the pylons. Destroy the pylons and the Imperium loses everything.

 Zande4 wrote:
Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

it'll never happen, abaddon would flee before it does

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

 Zande4 wrote:
Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

Abaddon's killed Grey Knight masters before, Draigo would go down as well.

Fluffwise, Draigo would beat Abaddon senseless in a fight. He did best a Daemon Primarch in single combat.

Abaddon is still just a marine, he isn't anything particularly special physically. His power is political in nature. He's hardly a pushover in melee, but nothing beyond what is to be expected.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, Draigo would beat Abaddon senseless in a fight. He did best a Daemon Primarch in single combat.

Abaddon is still just a marine, he isn't anything particularly special physically. His power is political in nature. He's hardly a pushover in melee, but nothing beyond what is to be expected.

Physically, he is noted to have launched an entire Black Crusade to obtain Drachn'yen. After obtaining it "his power swells to inhuman levels." That to me sounds like he's so powerful no other Chaos Lord would dare fight him. And considering some of the guys out there, that's saying something to his skills.

Draigo bested a Primarch. A DAEMON primarch. For a start, Grey Knights have so much protection against Daemons that even their own names are an anathema. Example being that Draigo was invisible to a Lord of Change, even when Draigo stood right in front of it, because "His fate belonged to another." Draigo had a curse on him at that point. Curses hold power in this setting. Plus, Draigo had Mortarion's True Name, the name the Emperor would have given him had he not been sent away by the Dark Gods. A True Name, when uttered, makes a pact of aorts with the Daemon, where the speaker of the Name is in control. He can command and control the Daemon depending on his willpower. So while some random no-name probanly wouldn't be able to use it, Draigo we know has incredible willpower and was enraged. So prophecy+True Name makes it an easy kill. He only needed to hold Mortarion still for a few seconds to kill his physical form and then does the heart carving once dead.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, Draigo would beat Abaddon senseless in a fight. He did best a Daemon Primarch in single combat.

Abaddon is still just a marine, he isn't anything particularly special physically. His power is political in nature. He's hardly a pushover in melee, but nothing beyond what is to be expected.

Draigo didn't beat Morty in combat. A recent audiodrama retconned the event (or rather, laid it out) so Draigo poked Mortarion in the eye (effectively with a psychic low blow) after he was getting thrashed in combat, then picked Morty's daemon brain off his mind while Morty was reeling from the low blow, and then Draigo banished him. There was no actual fight, and it was clear that Motarion was going to obliterate Draigo if he didn't think fast.

Abaddon on the other hand, has already killed Grey Knight grand masters before, so Draigo won't be the first. Or the last.

 Zande4 wrote:
Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

Only if Matt Ward writes about it.

Let's be fair, Eldrad Ulthuan taught Abbadon to a stand still...

I'll agree with those saying that the loyalists have no equivalent to Abaddon. Those that could beat him in single combat do not command the numbers he does, and those that command the numbers could not beat him in single combat.

 Wyzilla wrote:
A recent audiodrama retconned the event

Which was thankfully retconned again by the even more recent Grey Knight Codex into something more Draigoesque.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon on the other hand, has already killed Grey Knight grand masters before, so Draigo won't be the first. Or the last.

Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master, and Abaddon has been defeated by Captain Stern in the past, so don't say it like it's such a sure thing.

Although never stated, I suspect part of the Imperium's whole "Protagonist" schtick is that they defeat foes stronger than themselves via the power of friendship. (Orks would crush the Imperium if they were united, Necrons would crush the Imperium if they were united, Chaos would crush the Imperium if they were united, but the Imperium wins because unlike those guys, it's united... relatively speaking). It also brings to mind a "little guys unite to beat the big bad guy" spiel.

Because the Imperium is meant to be multiple smaller factions led by multiple smaller leaders united not because of their leader but because of the power of friendship (...relatively speaking), having a good guy who was on equal level as Abaddon would kinda defeat that point, unless it was a "llast moment of hope" sorta thing where the little guys manage to ressurect (or hold out long enough for) their own big good to save the day at the last moment. Karl Franz Ascended being one example, Gandalf arriving to save Helm's Deep being another. The Emperor reviving or the Primarchs returning would be the WH40k equivalent.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
A recent audiodrama retconned the event

Which was thankfully retconned again by the even more recent Grey Knight Codex into something more Draigoesque.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon on the other hand, has already killed Grey Knight grand masters before, so Draigo won't be the first. Or the last.

Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master, and Abaddon has been defeated by Captain Stern in the past, so don't say it like it's such a sure thing.

With the same principle as Draigo, M'kachen has sworn a curse on Stern. Essentially he is invincible to anyone but M'kachen. He even has tiny Tzeentchian demons that alter things to either improve or unhinge his luck. Such as turning aside Abaddon's blade ever so slightly for example. Also note the Stern has repeatedly refused the offer to become a Grand Master, far beyond the normal standard of Brother-Captain.

Anyone as failure ridden as Abby in the Imperium would have received the Emperor's Grace very early into their career... of course chaos in it's 'too many cooks' inept compromises between four deities that hate each other wisdom, decided to keep this bungling clot around and even put him in charge, instead of the primarchs-turned-demigods they could have chosen...


... for 10 thousand years...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Anyone as failure ridden as Abby in the Imperium would have received the Emperor's Grace very early into their career... of course chaos in it's 'too many cooks' inept compromises between four deities that hate each other wisdom, decided to keep this bungling clot around and even put him in charge, instead of the primarchs-turned-demigods they could have chosen...


... for 10 thousand years...

Where is his failure might I ask?

The Loyalist equivalent to Abaddon is Abaddon. Plot twist!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Anyone as failure ridden as Abby in the Imperium would have received the Emperor's Grace very early into their career... of course chaos in it's 'too many cooks' inept compromises between four deities that hate each other wisdom, decided to keep this bungling clot around and even put him in charge, instead of the primarchs-turned-demigods they could have chosen...


... for 10 thousand years...

Read the latest book. He has not been active for 10 thousand years. Time passes differently in the warp and initially he was wandering learning and observing before he formed the black legion out of the disparate survivors of the siege of terror and the anarchy that was the existence afterwards in the Eye of Terror. Now I am given to understand each crusade had a specific goal that was achieved.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

''My character is better than yours. Nananana''

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
''My character is better than yours. Nananana''

Yes but, does it ship?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

Yeah, he has.

1st Crusade: Secure Drachn'yen, so that he becomes unstoppable monster, unite the Chaos factions under his banner by becoming the thing that haunts their nightmares and make himself immune to attack by other Chaos Lords seeking to overthrough him. Completed.

4th Crusade: Statement of power and testing strength. Objective is to breach the "unbreachable" Citadel of the Kromarch, which he does, and sends a message to the Imperium and Chaos alike that nothing can protect against him. Completed.

7th Crusade: Personal vendetta and weakening of enemy power. Singles out the Blood Angels, sons of the most noble Primarch, sworn enemy of the Black Legion. Desecrates their corpses to deny them to ability to reproduce marines. Also sends the message that the BA, known for CC prowess, are inferior to Khorne Berserkers. Completed.

9th Crusade: Destroy the naval fortress Cancephalus, which allows him to ravage the sector at will with no navy to oppose him, and robs Cancephalus and the neighbouring Antecanis of manpower. Complete.

12th Crusade: Secure Blackstone Fortresses so that he can powrr his Planet Killer so he can either dominate space warfare or destroy Cadia and allow the Eye to expand. Also secure the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs. Completed.

13th Crusade: Ongoing, but the general gist of it is to destroy the Pylons on Cadia holding the Eye back. Ongoing

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

Yeah, he has.

1st Crusade: Secure Drachn'yen, so that he becomes unstoppable monster, unite the Chaos factions under his banner by becoming the thing that haunts their nightmares and make himself immune to attack by other Chaos Lords seeking to overthrough him. Completed.

4th Crusade: Statement of power and testing strength. Objective is to breach the "unbreachable" Citadel of the Kromarch, which he does, and sends a message to the Imperium and Chaos alike that nothing can protect against him. Completed.

7th Crusade: Personal vendetta and weakening of enemy power. Singles out the Blood Angels, sons of the most noble Primarch, sworn enemy of the Black Legion. Desecrates their corpses to deny them to ability to reproduce marines. Also sends the message that the BA, known for CC prowess, are inferior to Khorne Berserkers. Completed.

9th Crusade: Destroy the naval fortress Cancephalus, which allows him to ravage the sector at will with no navy to oppose him, and robs Cancephalus and the neighbouring Antecanis of manpower. Complete.

12th Crusade: Secure Blackstone Fortresses so that he can powrr his Planet Killer so he can either dominate space warfare or destroy Cadia and allow the Eye to expand. Also secure the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs. Completed.

13th Crusade: Ongoing, but the general gist of it is to destroy the Pylons on Cadia holding the Eye back. Ongoing

Aaand that still leaves Black Crusades 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 11 as failures. Less than Calgar, as far as I know?

Abaddon playing the long con. He'll wear them out eventually. Give him another hundred and twenty thousand years or so.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

Yeah, he has.

1st Crusade: Secure Drachn'yen, so that he becomes unstoppable monster, unite the Chaos factions under his banner by becoming the thing that haunts their nightmares and make himself immune to attack by other Chaos Lords seeking to overthrough him. Completed.

4th Crusade: Statement of power and testing strength. Objective is to breach the "unbreachable" Citadel of the Kromarch, which he does, and sends a message to the Imperium and Chaos alike that nothing can protect against him. Completed.

7th Crusade: Personal vendetta and weakening of enemy power. Singles out the Blood Angels, sons of the most noble Primarch, sworn enemy of the Black Legion. Desecrates their corpses to deny them to ability to reproduce marines. Also sends the message that the BA, known for CC prowess, are inferior to Khorne Berserkers. Completed.

9th Crusade: Destroy the naval fortress Cancephalus, which allows him to ravage the sector at will with no navy to oppose him, and robs Cancephalus and the neighbouring Antecanis of manpower. Complete.

12th Crusade: Secure Blackstone Fortresses so that he can powrr his Planet Killer so he can either dominate space warfare or destroy Cadia and allow the Eye to expand. Also secure the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs. Completed.

13th Crusade: Ongoing, but the general gist of it is to destroy the Pylons on Cadia holding the Eye back. Ongoing

Aaand that still leaves Black Crusades 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 11 as failures. Less than Calgar, as far as I know?

If they were failures he wouldn't have the backings of the Dark Gods and Daemon Primarchs. Those are just the ones picked out as having something of extra note. Tell me, name me just a few of Calgar's successes? I can name his 3 biggest off the top of my head. 1: Defeat the Swarmlord of Hive Fleet Kraken in melee, although losing round 1 on Macragge. 2: Defeating the Avatar in melee. 3: Tearing M'kar the Reborn limb from limb.

So let's see...lost against the Swarmlord the first time round, inexplicably won the second. His tactics failed on Macragge and nearly cost him and his chapter their homeworld and let the Tyranids into the greater Imperium, had it not been fortunate timinf that Navy from Bakka reinforced them. He defeated the Avatar in combat. No big deal really. The Vatars pretty tough. Abaddon has the loyalty of 6 Daemon Princes, any of whom would eat the Avatar for breakfast. And killing a Daemon Prince, which is basically nothing in current 40k.

And the 13th has failed. Total spacial supremacy by the Imperium.

Dark angels supreme grand master?

not the same CC deamon powered monster but has large numbers at hand, yes distrusted but the authority of a first founding chapter master.

and one well experienced in war, plus where better to hunt the fallen.

 Still Standing wrote:
And the 13th has failed. Total spacial supremacy by the Imperium.

Inb4 End Times retcon.

1st Crusade "I will lead the hordes of the unholy to conquer the entire... erm, how about I just get this sword and go home, that's totally what I set out to do, yes!"

2nd through 12th - rinse and repeat, failure and excuses... 'Oh I totally just wanted to fight the blood angels and go home', 'Oh I fully charged up a planet killer and some blackstone fortresses so I could... go home' etc etc etc...

"I entirely planned to be driven back to the eye, yet again, because it's all part of the plan guys!"

Sooner Ghazghkull tears off his stupid head and uses his ridiculous topknot to eat his brains like a lollipop, the happier everyone will be.

Still Standing wrote:And the 13th has failed. Total spacial supremacy by the Imperium.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:1st Crusade "I will lead the hordes of the unholy to conquer the entire... erm, how about I just get this sword and go home, that's totally what I set out to do, yes!"

2nd through 12th - rinse and repeat, failure and excuses... 'Oh I totally just wanted to fight the blood angels and go home', 'Oh I fully charged up a planet killer and some blackstone fortresses so I could... go home' etc etc etc...

"I entirely planned to be driven back to the eye, yet again, because it's all part of the plan guys!"

Sooner Ghazghkull tears off his stupid head and uses his ridiculous topknot to eat his brains like a lollipop, the happier everyone will be.

The 13th is ongoing. Can't fail when its only just been launched.

The first crusade's only objective was to capture Drachnyen. The 12th was solely to capture Blackstones. The 9th to weaken enemy power. But all of them were simply preparation for the 13th. Driven back, or retreated, its irrelevant. They achieved their primary objectives. Capture this, destroy that, test defences and learn for No 13. He did all that. That's the definition of success, not failure.

At what point can the 13th be considered a failure?

When their fleets are scattered? When they are confined to a foothold on a single planet? When there are several sector fleets sat watching just waiting to glass the entire continent?

Oh, all that already happened.

Captain General of the Custodes? Valdor if he is still alive? He bested a primarch in single combat before, he would wipe Abbaddon's

If Abaddon were a failure, the gods would have spawned him long ago. Instead he canonically keeps getting offers from them to be a daemon prince but rejects them so he can continue pursing the long war.

This is very explicit. All this jibber jabber about him being a failure is only due to narrative fault of the authors being unable to portray competence. Regardless of that fault, he canonically explicitly is successful in clear terms as stated by fluff sources, no matter how you try to interpret the events.

Except he canonically ends up defeated every time, no matter how you try to interpret them.

He wins battles, but never wars. Talon of Horus just offers Abaddon's PR spin on events, lol.

"No guys! I swear, this time I've got a great plan."

Maybe Abaddon is kept aroun not because he's successful, but because he's the least failure. Who else does Chaos have? Angron the Repeatedly Banished who leads thoughtless rampages before being bansihed back to the warp? Lorgar the Bookworm? Perturabo the Paranoid? Abaddon, despite his repeated defeats, is still the only guy they have who can put an army together.

Chaos is doomed to eternal failure. That's part of the curse of their treachery. In their hubris, they grasped at glory and now they're cursed to live lives of eternal bitterness and regret.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Except he canonically ends up defeated every time, no matter how you try to interpret them.

He wins battles, but never wars. Talon of Horus just offers Abaddon's PR spin on events, lol.

"No guys! I swear, this time I've got a great plan."

Maybe Abaddon is kept aroun not because he's successful, but because he's the least failure. Who else does Chaos have? Angron the Repeatedly Banished who leads thoughtless rampages before being bansihed back to the warp? Lorgar the Bookworm? Perturabo the Paranoid? Abaddon, despite his repeated defeats, is still the only guy they have who can put an army together.

Chaos is doomed to eternal failure. That's part of the curse of their treachery. In their hubris, they grasped at glory and now they're cursed to live lives of eternal bitterness and regret.

Hmmmm well then I'm going to argue that SM have no massive victories. Draigo's big three were only one because of other characters, includes killing the most pathetic daemon prince ever, an avatar of khaine which is a joke to kill, and the only reason Ultramar won was because they cheat the Imperium's orders and a fleet of human beings saved the UM's butts

Seriously though. Horus has won. Even if he had failed that many times, the fact he still lives is what's impressive! When you are generally pointed as the main enemy of 40k against the protagonists that the writers obviously have a bigger liking for it's not surprising. And if you disagree with that I'll just point out how the only reason the Imperium is still alive is because of an infinite number of plot devise movements. Sure Orks if united would slaughter everyone else, sure chaos if they get past cadia will kill everyonelse, sure if Necrons awaken enough they will autowin, sure tyranids will autowin when more of them come, etc. There's a lot of sures then there are groups like Tau that have a massive plot shield to survive

40k is a silly stupid world. I like it but it's built for nothing to ever really happen.

Meanwhile, on Terra...

My Lord! The Chaos Lord Abbadon the Despoiler has begun a new campaign!

(mild yawns reply).

Alright, up the count. We're on what... Abbadon's 13th Successive Failure now?

I'm guessing you thought that was pretty insightful.

All I'm saying is that people miss the very clear parable of the 40K universe. Lorgar wriites a book nobody will ever read. Perturabo fortifies a planet nobody will ever attack. Angron spends most of his existence confined to the Warp because he keeps getting banished. Those are the rewards of Chaos. Eternal madness and bitterness.

Chaos's champions don't win. They're tools. Pawns. Chaos gains nothing from total victory, which is why they have no vested interest in wholly supporting the efforts. They dangle carrots in front of their subjects, spurning them to further acts of Chaos.



And the Imperium doesn't exist because of plot device, lol. Orks exist because of plot device, heh. They used to just be the galaxy's obnoxious neighbors stuck in an eternal Mad Max cosplay acid trip that were only a huge threat when a warlord emerged who could contol that many Orks at a time through kult of personality. Then somebody turned them into infinitely spawning space fungus because +1 Grimdark. Traitor Marines exist solely because of a plot device. What do you think the Eye of Terror is? A convenient place for the Traitors to run away to every time they lose where the Imperium cannot finish them for good. It's their Cambodia, lol.

And it's not about the writers "liking" the Imperium more. That's the 40K universe. There's this giant Imperium which spans the galaxy being slowly eaten away by various otside elements. If the writers really liked the Imperium more, the fluff would all be Macharian Crusades, rather than Black Crusades and Abyssal Crusades.

 Killionaire wrote:
Meanwhile, on Terra...

My Lord! The Chaos Lord Abbadon the Despoiler has begun a new campaign!

(mild yawns reply).

Alright, up the count. We're on what... Abbadon's 13th Successive Failure now?

Nope 14th!

Ah look who is high and mighty now. The one that's going on and whining about every faction when their main faction is the one that gets the vast majority of the love and constantly gets humans and Space marines that defy all logic to survive. And all that glorious Draigo and Matt Ward fluff

Now joking aside. I'm going to be honest. 40k fluff is god awful. It is preposterously bad. It's everything is really really stupid. But it also happens to be so stupid it is charming. It's grimderp really! It's a story of one group that gets grinded away at the sides and fights the impossible odds against it grating down gradually, where nobody is supposed to matter but swords and CC are a surprisingly iconic and regular enough thing to be brought to the field of battle, where terribly clunky tanks and flashlights are the primary armament of the largest force (discounting tyranids and mainly hinting at the Imperium).

 Still Standing wrote:
At what point can the 13th be considered a failure?

When their fleets are scattered? When they are confined to a foothold on a single planet? When there are several sector fleets sat watching just waiting to glass the entire continent?

Oh, all that already happened.

No, when he retreats with the pylons and the Eye same as before. As long as the pylons are destroyed, he is successful. His objectives for the first 12 were completed. Doesn't matter that he retreated, its irrelevant. The other thing that determines success or failure is completed. Anything else is a bonus.

Since when was Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade a failure?
Even in the the actual player based summer campaign, Chaos won.

Umm, they scored better in the ground campaign. The Imperium crushed them in the space campaign. What use is a force of Marines without support?

The Imperium won the space lanes, but Chaos still had their fleets within the sector.

(Sigh) I thought this debate was settled. Abaddon won the 13th Crusade. Period. End of story. It's in the campaign books, it's in the official report and the ending you spout was made up. Were you guys not their for the actual campaign or are you still butthurt over the results?

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
(Sigh) I thought this debate was settled. Abaddon won the 13th Crusade. Period. End of story. It's in the campaign books, it's in the official report and the ending you spout was made up. Were you guys not their for the actual campaign or are you still butthurt over the results?

I was there for the campaign, and played neither Chaos nor Imperial. I remember the results unbiased by anything else.

"The campaign ran for eight weeks, in which more than 40,000 players registered to submit over a quarter of a million games results to the campaign website. The conclusion of the campaign resulted in a minor victory for Chaos. The line was held in many places but on the strategic level the Disorder players were considered to have consistently out-fought and out-maneuvered their opponents, and held over half of Cadia itself. The Forces of Chaos made slow but somewhat steady progress on many fronts, yet could not claim a decisive victory, especially when a "backstage" plan to gain a foothold in the Eldar Webway system turned into a complete and total failure. In addition, Abaddon suffered severe losses to his fleet in the Crusade, which allowed the forces of Order to bottle up the Chaotics on Cadia itself, preventing them from launching a full invasion of the Imperium."

Most people don't understand what it means to lose your fleets in a naval battle... How well would the US have done in the pacific arena of WW2 if they landed their troops on a particular island, then lost their ships?

Its a different thing altogether. The Imperium has the orbital superiority (at the moment mind, but moving on) but it does them no good when Chaos can materialise reinforcements directly to the planet anyway. Not only that, but the ships cannot just glass the planet. Cadia is absolutely vital to the Imperium's survival. Have I and the fluff not made that clear?

Why would they need to destroy the entire planet? They only need to destroy those parts of the planet that have buildups of Chaos forces, or more more importantly, their command, control and logistic elements. Chaos cannot simply materialise enough supplies to run an entire army. If they could, they would have materialised themselves there long ago.

 Still Standing wrote:
Why would they need to destroy the entire planet? They only need to destroy those parts of the planet that have buildups of Chaos forces, or more more importantly, their command, control and logistic elements. Chaos cannot simply materialise enough supplies to run an entire army. If they could, they would have materialised themselves there long ago.

Because those Chaos forces happen to be in the areas the Imperium needs to control? Because collateral damage? Because they can't do bombing while the Chaos Fleets present a risk that if ignored could regain dominance? Because they need to focus on not having the Planet Killer wreck face. Any number of reasons.

It sounds like from the after-action report that the 13th Crusade failed it's objectives and is now bottled up on Cadia. That is not a good position to be in.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It sounds like from the after-action report that the 13th Crusade failed it's objectives and is now bottled up on Cadia. That is not a good position to be in.

Failure can only come after completion. The Crusade is ongoing, and until Abaddon has no way to push forth, it hasn't failed. Note also that the Crusade has pnly just launched and he already has a major foothold on the primary target. Much of his forces are still to come including the Daemon Primarchs and Daemon Lords.

 Still Standing wrote:
Umm, they scored better in the ground campaign. The Imperium crushed them in the space campaign. What use is a force of Marines without support?

Abaddon doesn't need space support, he can simply open portals through the Warp and march men and materials through them.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Umm, they scored better in the ground campaign. The Imperium crushed them in the space campaign. What use is a force of Marines without support?

Abaddon doesn't need space support, he can simply open portals through the Warp and march men and materials through them.

If that were possible on a large enough scale be matter he'd have done it already, and on far more important planets than Cadia. Terra, for example.

Terra is fairly protected against such things, that's the whole thing about the Infinity Gate and the like.

Also, Abaddon would need to land Sorcerers on Terra first to open the gate there to send things out of the Eye from the staging world. However, Abaddon on Cadia has that problem already solved.

One of the problems with the GW writing team is that they forget what capabilities their various factions actually have. They seem to forget, quite frequently, that Chaos has magic readily available. It's, like, the whole schtick of Chaos, is that it's fething magic swords and gak.

This is 40k. The magic is limited.

Maybe on the tabletop, but definitely not in the books or background.

Really? In all the books I've read they have struggled to bring even a few men through the warp. This is usually on planets without super tech Necron psy suppressing pylons.

I think that a war was never over and Abbaddon didn't lose war! he lost battles or took major damage in battles or whatever ! I mean, all that stuff like "well spec marines kicked his butt mwahaha like 12 times" is trash, you can win battle and lose your whole army ! Look at the game sometimes you win with 10% of your forces after you lose like 90 % of your models on the table ! I think it's goals that matter . Look at Vietnam they lost like 10 time more soldiers but they won that war!( I don't want to offend anyone by this if its sounds like that btw) So i don't really get that all failbadon stuff , I think there's no one like Aby on imperium side !

 darkflame182 wrote:
I think that a war was never over and Abadon didnt luse war! he lost battles or took major damage in battles or what ewer ! I mean all that stuf like well spec marines kicked his but muahaha like 12 time is trash you can win battle losing whole ur army ! Look at the game sometimes you win with your 10% of forces after you lose like 90 % of your models on the table ! I think its goals that mether . Look at Vietnam they lost like 10 time more soldiers but they win that war! ( I dont want to ofend eny on by this if its sounds like that) So i dont realy get that all failbadon stuff i think theres no one like Aby on imperium side !

Was that English?

If I understand what you're on about you think you can win a war after suffering 90% casualties? No, an expeditionary force like the 13th Black Crusade cannot sustain those sorts of casualties against an endless opponent like the Imperium and call it a victory. Luckily, I don't think they're in that situation...

 Still Standing wrote:


Was that English?

If I understand what you're on about you think you can win a war after suffering 90% casualties? No, an expeditionary force like the 13th Black Crusade cannot sustain those sorts of casualties against an endless opponent like the Imperium and call it a victory. Luckily, I don't think they're in that situation...

Abbaddon didnt lose war, he lost battles, war was never over and I meant that a battle may be considered a victory even if your forces got obliterated, but you achieved some of your goals ! + He's chaos, his resources are a lot more flexible than imperium's, he doesn't care if he lost 10 000 heretics, just replace them with demons or new heretics, as long as he achieves his objectives ! For example, if he didn't achieve his goal in first crusade, maybe there wouldn't be a second one ! And so on...

 Still Standing wrote:

Was that English?

Notice that little flag next to his name?

By writing in a second language he's clearly making an effort to engage in the conversation. If you don't want to reciprocate with a small effort to understand him, then just don't answer. I thought his message was perfectly understandable.

tgjensen wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:

Was that English?

Notice that little flag next to his name?

By writing in a second language he's clearly making an effort to engage in the conversation. If you don't want to reciprocate with a small effort to understand him, then just don't answer. I thought his message was perfectly understandable.

No, I didn't. His English is far better than my Latvian. I read his post as a native speaker who was purposefully trying to text speak. I guess that means his English is pretty good.

Ah well, apologies for the snappy tone in my post then. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by an oversight, and all that.

I believe you will find Hanlon's Razoor is "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." That is quite apt here.

If we could leave aside the epeen waving over which faction won/lost what crusade:

The point is precisely that the Imperium doesn't have an equivalent to Abaddon. He's the Warmaster, basically for life. The Imperium occasionally has a Warmaster - or the bowdlerized Lord Solar - but even Macharius didn't command all the resources of the Imperium, though he did have all the elements of his Crusade under his authority.

And that's by design - the settlement after the Heresy was that there would never again be someone like Horus - heck, look what happened when Goge Vandire pulled his mini-Heresy. All this talk about who can beat up whom is pointless; as in the comics world a fan can always cite authorial fiat/external circumstances/plot armour if they don't like a conclusion, and a writer can use the same reasons to produce whatever outcome they feel like. But the narrative role that Abaddon has is not reflected on the Imperial side.

Also, I'm not sure why anyone's committed to the position that Abaddon has failed at 12 crusades. There are any number of human wars in our history that haven't been fought for total conquest, and there's no reason to think that all the Black Crusades were either. I'm also not in favour of the "just as planned" view that each one was an unequivocal success, but that's also an equally boring position.

As an aside, Talon of Horus makes clear - and it's been hinted at plenty of times elsewhere - that there's a distinction to be drawn between the Daemon Primarchs and Abaddon + his mortal chums. Take the basic nature of the Daemon - it's an existence of tension, because a daemon wants to manifest in the mortal world, but also can't do it very easily, because the mortal realm is pretty much anathema to it. The Daemon Primarchs and the gods themselves have sort of the same love/hate relationship going on - it seems quite clear that none of them want total dominion over the physical world, because what would they do then? Angron turns up for some bloodshed now and then, but the others have pretty resolutely been caught up in the otherworld frippery of the gods.

Abaddon - and other veterans of the long war, if I might borrow the phrase - aren't interested in any of that - they want to see the galaxy burn, topple the corpse god, etc. etc. I'm not really concerned that they have anything so inane as governance or legitimacy on their minds beyond that. Imagine, for a moment, that Abaddon succeeds where Horus failed. He shatters the gates of Terra, dethrones the Emperor... then what? Is he going to get up on that grand golden seat himself and rekindle the Great Crusade? Would the gods draw away their favour before or after this moment? Certainly they seem uninterested in extending the Eye of Terror's warp/realspace bleed all across the galaxy - what, after all, would any of them do other than plot against each other, then? (And run up against the Necrons or Tyranids, but that's another plotline).