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I would go with Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar. All are highly-esteemed commanders in their own right. However, none of them really have that whole "follow me or else" ability to muster forces like Abaddon. My vote would be for Dante though. Calgar obviously thought it was a good idea. And Grimnar probably wouldn't disagree with that either.

EDIT: I would like to say Bjorn the Fell-Handed, if they would let him do it instead of doing story time every century.

 Still Standing wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Uh, cadia isn't in the gothic sector, it's surprisingly enough in the the "Cadian Sector".

Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

SYKOJAK wrote:
There are 2 things to consider here when discussing Abbaddon here. First is his pure physical power as a battlefield badass. My choice for his physical counter part would be Castellan Crowe. I think that in a duel he is the only Imperial loyalist who stands a chance of walking away from a fight with Abbaddon. Anybody else, and Abbaddon is just going to wreck them.

The second thing to consider is Abbaddon's political power within his chosen faction, namely Chaos Space Marines. Abbaddon only really controls the Black Legion directly for traitor legions concerned. All the other traitor legions/chapters may honor him or ignore him as they see fit to do so. Chaos is very fickle and selfish to say the least.

I would say his political clout among Chaos Space Marines is probably on par with an Imperial Subsector Commander. I would base this on account of how many troops would actually be following his orders. All of the other legion/chapter masters are going to do what is in their own best interests. And that includes prosecuting yet another crusade against the Imperium.

His pure physical power and h2h counter-part would be the reborn Angel, Lord Mephiston.
As a commander, it's Lord Commander Dante. They would equal Abbaddon, IMHO.

 Tezdal wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Uh, cadia isn't in the gothic sector, it's surprisingly enough in the the "Cadian Sector".

And yet Battlefleet Gothic responded. Who would have thought the largest Sector Fleet outside of Terra would have gone to help out in a Black Crusade...

 Still Standing wrote:

 Tezdal wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Screw the Space Marines.

Admiral Ravenburg, commander of Battlefleet Gothic. He's the guy with probably the most direct military power in the Imperium. He also defeated the 13th Black Crusade...

Space Forces...... There's still the ground war to worry about.

And as soon as the Imperium realises that Cadia is lost (if and when it is), what do you think happens then? Battlefleet Gothic glasses the planet. The remaining forces have no real supply lines, bar the relatively small amounts they can summon from the warp. They have no reinforcements. They have no air support. Yes, they have a foothold, but that only lasts so long against air and space supremacy. It's not even like they can perform a guerrilla war as they cannot hide from the Imperium's technology, or blend in with the locals.

Uh, cadia isn't in the gothic sector, it's surprisingly enough in the the "Cadian Sector".

And yet Battlefleet Gothic responded. Who would have thought the largest Sector Fleet outside of Terra would have gone to help out in a Black Crusade...

Regardless, the Imperium can't glass the planet. They still need the pylons on Cadia to hold the Eye of Terror in check. Abaddon's whole plan rests on detroying the pylons. Destroy the pylons and the Imperium loses everything.

 Zande4 wrote:
Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

it'll never happen, abaddon would flee before it does

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

 Zande4 wrote:
Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

Abaddon's killed Grey Knight masters before, Draigo would go down as well.

Fluffwise, Draigo would beat Abaddon senseless in a fight. He did best a Daemon Primarch in single combat.

Abaddon is still just a marine, he isn't anything particularly special physically. His power is political in nature. He's hardly a pushover in melee, but nothing beyond what is to be expected.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, Draigo would beat Abaddon senseless in a fight. He did best a Daemon Primarch in single combat.

Abaddon is still just a marine, he isn't anything particularly special physically. His power is political in nature. He's hardly a pushover in melee, but nothing beyond what is to be expected.

Physically, he is noted to have launched an entire Black Crusade to obtain Drachn'yen. After obtaining it "his power swells to inhuman levels." That to me sounds like he's so powerful no other Chaos Lord would dare fight him. And considering some of the guys out there, that's saying something to his skills.

Draigo bested a Primarch. A DAEMON primarch. For a start, Grey Knights have so much protection against Daemons that even their own names are an anathema. Example being that Draigo was invisible to a Lord of Change, even when Draigo stood right in front of it, because "His fate belonged to another." Draigo had a curse on him at that point. Curses hold power in this setting. Plus, Draigo had Mortarion's True Name, the name the Emperor would have given him had he not been sent away by the Dark Gods. A True Name, when uttered, makes a pact of aorts with the Daemon, where the speaker of the Name is in control. He can command and control the Daemon depending on his willpower. So while some random no-name probanly wouldn't be able to use it, Draigo we know has incredible willpower and was enraged. So prophecy+True Name makes it an easy kill. He only needed to hold Mortarion still for a few seconds to kill his physical form and then does the heart carving once dead.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, Draigo would beat Abaddon senseless in a fight. He did best a Daemon Primarch in single combat.

Abaddon is still just a marine, he isn't anything particularly special physically. His power is political in nature. He's hardly a pushover in melee, but nothing beyond what is to be expected.

Draigo didn't beat Morty in combat. A recent audiodrama retconned the event (or rather, laid it out) so Draigo poked Mortarion in the eye (effectively with a psychic low blow) after he was getting thrashed in combat, then picked Morty's daemon brain off his mind while Morty was reeling from the low blow, and then Draigo banished him. There was no actual fight, and it was clear that Motarion was going to obliterate Draigo if he didn't think fast.

Abaddon on the other hand, has already killed Grey Knight grand masters before, so Draigo won't be the first. Or the last.

 Zande4 wrote:
Out of curiosity would Draigo beat Abbadon senseless in a 1v1 duel?

Only if Matt Ward writes about it.

Let's be fair, Eldrad Ulthuan taught Abbadon to a stand still...

I'll agree with those saying that the loyalists have no equivalent to Abaddon. Those that could beat him in single combat do not command the numbers he does, and those that command the numbers could not beat him in single combat.

 Wyzilla wrote:
A recent audiodrama retconned the event

Which was thankfully retconned again by the even more recent Grey Knight Codex into something more Draigoesque.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon on the other hand, has already killed Grey Knight grand masters before, so Draigo won't be the first. Or the last.

Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master, and Abaddon has been defeated by Captain Stern in the past, so don't say it like it's such a sure thing.

Although never stated, I suspect part of the Imperium's whole "Protagonist" schtick is that they defeat foes stronger than themselves via the power of friendship. (Orks would crush the Imperium if they were united, Necrons would crush the Imperium if they were united, Chaos would crush the Imperium if they were united, but the Imperium wins because unlike those guys, it's united... relatively speaking). It also brings to mind a "little guys unite to beat the big bad guy" spiel.

Because the Imperium is meant to be multiple smaller factions led by multiple smaller leaders united not because of their leader but because of the power of friendship (...relatively speaking), having a good guy who was on equal level as Abaddon would kinda defeat that point, unless it was a "llast moment of hope" sorta thing where the little guys manage to ressurect (or hold out long enough for) their own big good to save the day at the last moment. Karl Franz Ascended being one example, Gandalf arriving to save Helm's Deep being another. The Emperor reviving or the Primarchs returning would be the WH40k equivalent.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
A recent audiodrama retconned the event

Which was thankfully retconned again by the even more recent Grey Knight Codex into something more Draigoesque.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon on the other hand, has already killed Grey Knight grand masters before, so Draigo won't be the first. Or the last.

Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master, and Abaddon has been defeated by Captain Stern in the past, so don't say it like it's such a sure thing.

With the same principle as Draigo, M'kachen has sworn a curse on Stern. Essentially he is invincible to anyone but M'kachen. He even has tiny Tzeentchian demons that alter things to either improve or unhinge his luck. Such as turning aside Abaddon's blade ever so slightly for example. Also note the Stern has repeatedly refused the offer to become a Grand Master, far beyond the normal standard of Brother-Captain.

Anyone as failure ridden as Abby in the Imperium would have received the Emperor's Grace very early into their career... of course chaos in it's 'too many cooks' inept compromises between four deities that hate each other wisdom, decided to keep this bungling clot around and even put him in charge, instead of the primarchs-turned-demigods they could have chosen...


... for 10 thousand years...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Anyone as failure ridden as Abby in the Imperium would have received the Emperor's Grace very early into their career... of course chaos in it's 'too many cooks' inept compromises between four deities that hate each other wisdom, decided to keep this bungling clot around and even put him in charge, instead of the primarchs-turned-demigods they could have chosen...


... for 10 thousand years...

Where is his failure might I ask?

The Loyalist equivalent to Abaddon is Abaddon. Plot twist!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Anyone as failure ridden as Abby in the Imperium would have received the Emperor's Grace very early into their career... of course chaos in it's 'too many cooks' inept compromises between four deities that hate each other wisdom, decided to keep this bungling clot around and even put him in charge, instead of the primarchs-turned-demigods they could have chosen...


... for 10 thousand years...

Read the latest book. He has not been active for 10 thousand years. Time passes differently in the warp and initially he was wandering learning and observing before he formed the black legion out of the disparate survivors of the siege of terror and the anarchy that was the existence afterwards in the Eye of Terror. Now I am given to understand each crusade had a specific goal that was achieved.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

''My character is better than yours. Nananana''

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
''My character is better than yours. Nananana''

Yes but, does it ship?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

Yeah, he has.

1st Crusade: Secure Drachn'yen, so that he becomes unstoppable monster, unite the Chaos factions under his banner by becoming the thing that haunts their nightmares and make himself immune to attack by other Chaos Lords seeking to overthrough him. Completed.

4th Crusade: Statement of power and testing strength. Objective is to breach the "unbreachable" Citadel of the Kromarch, which he does, and sends a message to the Imperium and Chaos alike that nothing can protect against him. Completed.

7th Crusade: Personal vendetta and weakening of enemy power. Singles out the Blood Angels, sons of the most noble Primarch, sworn enemy of the Black Legion. Desecrates their corpses to deny them to ability to reproduce marines. Also sends the message that the BA, known for CC prowess, are inferior to Khorne Berserkers. Completed.

9th Crusade: Destroy the naval fortress Cancephalus, which allows him to ravage the sector at will with no navy to oppose him, and robs Cancephalus and the neighbouring Antecanis of manpower. Complete.

12th Crusade: Secure Blackstone Fortresses so that he can powrr his Planet Killer so he can either dominate space warfare or destroy Cadia and allow the Eye to expand. Also secure the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs. Completed.

13th Crusade: Ongoing, but the general gist of it is to destroy the Pylons on Cadia holding the Eye back. Ongoing

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

Yeah, he has.

1st Crusade: Secure Drachn'yen, so that he becomes unstoppable monster, unite the Chaos factions under his banner by becoming the thing that haunts their nightmares and make himself immune to attack by other Chaos Lords seeking to overthrough him. Completed.

4th Crusade: Statement of power and testing strength. Objective is to breach the "unbreachable" Citadel of the Kromarch, which he does, and sends a message to the Imperium and Chaos alike that nothing can protect against him. Completed.

7th Crusade: Personal vendetta and weakening of enemy power. Singles out the Blood Angels, sons of the most noble Primarch, sworn enemy of the Black Legion. Desecrates their corpses to deny them to ability to reproduce marines. Also sends the message that the BA, known for CC prowess, are inferior to Khorne Berserkers. Completed.

9th Crusade: Destroy the naval fortress Cancephalus, which allows him to ravage the sector at will with no navy to oppose him, and robs Cancephalus and the neighbouring Antecanis of manpower. Complete.

12th Crusade: Secure Blackstone Fortresses so that he can powrr his Planet Killer so he can either dominate space warfare or destroy Cadia and allow the Eye to expand. Also secure the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs. Completed.

13th Crusade: Ongoing, but the general gist of it is to destroy the Pylons on Cadia holding the Eye back. Ongoing

Aaand that still leaves Black Crusades 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 11 as failures. Less than Calgar, as far as I know?

Abaddon playing the long con. He'll wear them out eventually. Give him another hundred and twenty thousand years or so.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
No-one has the same level over overall command over the imperial forces, or is as much of a figurehead for the cause. Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar would probably be the closest analogs. Creed maybe, but he's a pure commander rather than a beefy superwarrior.

These. Calgar's probably the most direct analogue, although Creed and then Grimnar would be honourable mentions. They're all still outclassed (fluff-wise) by Abaddon though.

I dunno. Calgar seems to actually win his campaigns.

Abaddon's won his objectives too.

Sure he has.


"No no guys. What I meant to do was..."

Yeah, he has.

1st Crusade: Secure Drachn'yen, so that he becomes unstoppable monster, unite the Chaos factions under his banner by becoming the thing that haunts their nightmares and make himself immune to attack by other Chaos Lords seeking to overthrough him. Completed.

4th Crusade: Statement of power and testing strength. Objective is to breach the "unbreachable" Citadel of the Kromarch, which he does, and sends a message to the Imperium and Chaos alike that nothing can protect against him. Completed.

7th Crusade: Personal vendetta and weakening of enemy power. Singles out the Blood Angels, sons of the most noble Primarch, sworn enemy of the Black Legion. Desecrates their corpses to deny them to ability to reproduce marines. Also sends the message that the BA, known for CC prowess, are inferior to Khorne Berserkers. Completed.

9th Crusade: Destroy the naval fortress Cancephalus, which allows him to ravage the sector at will with no navy to oppose him, and robs Cancephalus and the neighbouring Antecanis of manpower. Complete.

12th Crusade: Secure Blackstone Fortresses so that he can powrr his Planet Killer so he can either dominate space warfare or destroy Cadia and allow the Eye to expand. Also secure the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs. Completed.

13th Crusade: Ongoing, but the general gist of it is to destroy the Pylons on Cadia holding the Eye back. Ongoing

Aaand that still leaves Black Crusades 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 11 as failures. Less than Calgar, as far as I know?

If they were failures he wouldn't have the backings of the Dark Gods and Daemon Primarchs. Those are just the ones picked out as having something of extra note. Tell me, name me just a few of Calgar's successes? I can name his 3 biggest off the top of my head. 1: Defeat the Swarmlord of Hive Fleet Kraken in melee, although losing round 1 on Macragge. 2: Defeating the Avatar in melee. 3: Tearing M'kar the Reborn limb from limb.

So let's see...lost against the Swarmlord the first time round, inexplicably won the second. His tactics failed on Macragge and nearly cost him and his chapter their homeworld and let the Tyranids into the greater Imperium, had it not been fortunate timinf that Navy from Bakka reinforced them. He defeated the Avatar in combat. No big deal really. The Vatars pretty tough. Abaddon has the loyalty of 6 Daemon Princes, any of whom would eat the Avatar for breakfast. And killing a Daemon Prince, which is basically nothing in current 40k.