So I have seen the silly comparisons of Star Wars/Trek vs the Imperium of Man, and due to its sheer size and the scope of the setting there really is no comparison between the settings. I have also seen some even more screwy "what ifs" where the Imperium of Man came to our Earth and it was simply a backward primitive planet.
My question is how would an Astarte Chapter fare if they were were to come to the Earth of the Marvel Universe? I know that should the full brunt of the Imperium fall on Earth is would be over in a matter of seconds. But how would a company of Astartes fare against say the Avengers?
Astartes are the most perfectly engineered warriors but how could even a squad of Assault Terminators manage the Hulk?
How would a pre Daemon Prince Angron fare against Wolverine?
Characters such as Thor or Superman from DC would still be OP and probably be able to manage even the primarchs but for now we could leave them out of the conversation.
Participate or not, just on a Marvel kick at the moment and bored.
If you mean actual Marvel Earth (616), then we're talking literally hundreds of heroes and villains, from no-hopers like Daredevil, Hawkeye and Toad that would go down in seconds, to the likes of Hulk, Prof X and Magneto that could shut down whole Companies of Marines pretty much on their own.
So I'm handing this one to Marvel on those grounds, there's a reason these guys are called superheroes.
Honestly, I would put the armed forces of at least the largest three nations on our real planet against a chapter of marines. 1000 marines (plus support) just isn't that much.
The situation as I see it is:
- Space Marine battlebarge enters orbit. - Chapter Master broadcasts something along the lines of "Surrender or Die" - China, Russia and the US moves their respective leaders into hidden remote locations. - Space Marine drop pods land in 4 cities and begin shooting everything up. - Armed forces of those nations respond. - Space Marines continue to make a mess of things. - China/Russia/US use small tactical nukes to take them out. - China/Russia/US point larger ICBM nukes at Battlebarge in orbit. - Battlebarge takes the hint and leaves.
I know the lore says that a single marine is enough for most planets, but seriously, if you have 100,000 guns, rockets, missiles and serious weapons trained on that one marine then he isn't going to be able to do squat. Also, 1,000 space marines isn't going to be enough to take out the entire C&C structure of Earth's armed forces.
It's rough to say even on the Psyker front. How would 40K psychic abilities interact with the psychic abilities of those in the Marvel verse? Look at Prof. X, Emma Frost, Phoenix, or even Shadow King, some of the Marvel world's most powerful telepaths. Some of these characters feats are just as impressive as those of the 40K world. Would they even out? Would one be stronger than the other?
I'm also wondering how this would go down if the various powerful entities get involved. (Sentry, Thanos, Mephisto/Blackheart, etc vs. Emperor/Chaos Gods)
So yea a Chapter not so much, maybe we should take this as an all or nothing approach, forgetting the fact that the Imperium might just say Feth it Exterminatus.
Or maybe on an individual basis.
What could match up against say the likes of the Hulk/Thor/Magneto.
It brings some level of parity in a sense.
Go back to the Legions. Minus its primarch match up 100k marines vs the Hulk, Juggernaut, Apocalypse, Magneto, and Thor. Numbers would weigh them down, but it would almost be like the comical kung fu movies where 3-4 bad guys go into fight with 15 dancing around them.
Capn America-Should fare fine his shield should be able block most things they fire at him, and he should match them in speed and strength thanks to the super soldier serum.
Iron Man-Bleeding Edge Armor would destroy anything not pyschic, its basically Riptide level but faster and smaller
Thor-Comicbook Thor is a god, MCU Thor would be a bulletsponge
Hulk-Smashes.
Black Widow, Hawkeye, normal human level dudes are toast maybe taking a few dozen marines with them.
X-Men would fare well enough between the various powers I think Marines would have as much trouble as they would fighting Nids or Demons.
Then you have the various galactic level threats like Thanos who would just brutalize astartes.
All in all I think your typical marvel Hero would be able to at least provide a good fight for marines....
The you have The Sentry who is secretly the Emperor
Any of the Comic Book Universes has ready answers and counters to just about anything the Imperium can throw at it.
The Marvel Universe has defeated things like Galactus. A pseudo-sci-fi army of massive scale, but relatively simple tech, is no worries at all.
Shoot, the Human Torch could just go super-hot and fly through space, just burning his way through the hulls of starships and venting their contents to the void.
Superman could just, you know, throw a Gothic-class cruiser into the Sun. Over and over again.
The Inquisition has limited numbers of Tesseract Labyrinth devices, as these are captured Necron technologies. And while they'd be able to capture the Hulk, it's not like the Hulk is the only one of his type in the setting (there is, at least, still She-Hulk).
Staying strictly within the Marvel universe, there's also the Juggernaut. And Wolverine. And Thor.
Let's not forget that! The Marvel universe has an entire range of actual deities on its side.
Frankly, I could pick 5 Marvel characters to take on a SM force of any size.
Magneto: renders their tanks and air support useless, and can crush power armour. Basically, anything he pays attention to is dead. Helmet makes him immune to psykers, probably.
Xavier: shuts down any kind of psykers, and with Cerebro, could make the Marines little more than puppets unless they had any kind of psychic defence.
Iron Man: has the firepower to cut them down like wheat, can provide mobility and coordinate attacks.
Thor: air support, ground support, basically unkillable and can annihilate most SM in seconds.
Quicksilver: what good can 100 Marines do if, between them grasping and raising their guns, every single clip, battery or magazine has been taken away? And that's just him playing nice.
Paradigm wrote: Frankly, I could pick 5 Marvel characters to take on a SM force of any size.
Magneto: renders their tanks and air support useless, and can crush power armour. Basically, anything he pays attention to is dead. Helmet makes him immune to psykers, probably.
Xavier: shuts down any kind of psykers, and with Cerebro, could make the Marines little more than puppets unless they had any kind of psychic defence.
Iron Man: has the firepower to cut them down like wheat, can provide mobility and coordinate attacks.
Thor: air support, ground support, basically unkillable and can annihilate most SM in seconds.
Quicksilver: what good can 100 Marines do if, between them grasping and raising their guns, every single clip, battery or magazine has been taken away? And that's just him playing nice.
Hell, you only really need one. Franklin Richards. Hurray reality warping/manipulation!
Though im curious if Xavier or any of the telepath connected with a warp pysker would they be able to actually handle the powers of chaos contained within?
Not exactly a imperium win but it could change the tide.
I suppose a better question would be Marval vs something far more insane like necrons or eldar.
Edit: also to be fair the final cap to this would be that space marines dont actually fight foot wars like that.
They will send in a small team to go feth up important gak by suprise using similtanious and devastating strikes. not to mention im sure magneto wouldn't be able to deal with a volcano cannon to the face from orbit. and help em if they have vortex missiles
Though im curious if Xavier or any of the telepath connected with a warp pysker would they be able to actually handle the powers of chaos contained within?
Not exactly a imperium win but it could change the tide.
I suppose a better question would be Marval vs something far more insane like necrons or eldar.
Good question. I could be mistaken, but I could of sworn Xavier has clashed minds with other, more powerful entities before. Though the dude has a damn powerful mind. I'd love to know a conclusive answer for this :p
Paradigm wrote: Frankly, I could pick 5 Marvel characters to take on a SM force of any size.
Magneto: renders their tanks and air support useless, and can crush power armour. Basically, anything he pays attention to is dead. Helmet makes him immune to psykers, probably.
Xavier: shuts down any kind of psykers, and with Cerebro, could make the Marines little more than puppets unless they had any kind of psychic defence.
Iron Man: has the firepower to cut them down like wheat, can provide mobility and coordinate attacks.
Thor: air support, ground support, basically unkillable and can annihilate most SM in seconds.
Quicksilver: what good can 100 Marines do if, between them grasping and raising their guns, every single clip, battery or magazine has been taken away? And that's just him playing nice.
Hell, you only really need one. Franklin Richards. Hurray reality warping/manipulation!
Her, I was staying away from the stupidly OP ones... Kind of. But if it's no holds barred:
Franklin Richards
Mephisto
Senty
Scarlet Witch on a bad day
Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet
Yeah, if the Imperium brings the Warp with them, all those human telepaths like Prof. X and Phoenix are toast. Instant daemonic incursion as 0.2% of the earth's populations' heads instantly explode in a shower of daemon, the likes of which they have no defence against.
Of course, the genuine magic users like Strange and Doom would probably not be quite so vulnerable to the Perils, and that's without getting into the nastiness that someone like Shadowcat could do.
I mean... Shadowcat. Imagine a Necron Wraith, but instead of being a robot caretaker, it's a super-ninja with a pet dragon. Oh, and genius-level IQ, because before she was Shadowcat, she was Sprite, whose main claim to fame was reprogramming Cerebro at age fourteen.
Who was then unofficially adopted by Wolverine.
Who then... I don't even remember where she learned the Ninja, but at some point there were alternate universes involved, and she ended up with the draconic mortal incarnation of the Blackbird as a pet.
Furyou Miko wrote: Yeah, if the Imperium brings the Warp with them, all those human telepaths like Prof. X and Phoenix are toast. Instant daemonic incursion as 0.2% of the earth's populations' heads instantly explode in a shower of daemon, the likes of which they have no defence against.
Of course, the genuine magic users like Strange and Doom would probably not be quite so vulnerable to the Perils, and that's without getting into the nastiness that someone like Shadowcat could do.
I mean... Shadowcat. Imagine a Necron Wraith, but instead of being a robot caretaker, it's a super-ninja with a pet dragon. Oh, and genius-level IQ, because before she was Shadowcat, she was Sprite, whose main claim to fame was reprogramming Cerebro at age fourteen.
Who was then unofficially adopted by Wolverine.
Who then... I don't even remember where she learned the Ninja, but at some point there were alternate universes involved, and she ended up with the draconic mortal incarnation of the Blackbird as a pet.
I guess that would depend, wouldn't it? Only the 40k Psykers require tapping into the warp to pull of their deeds. The Marvel psychics/magic users don't require it and therefore are not linked to it and couldn't get harassed mentally by it's power...right?
Though im curious if Xavier or any of the telepath connected with a warp pysker would they be able to actually handle the powers of chaos contained within?
Not exactly a imperium win but it could change the tide.
I suppose a better question would be Marval vs something far more insane like necrons or eldar.
Edit: also to be fair the final cap to this would be that space marines dont actually fight foot wars like that.
They will send in a small team to go feth up important gak by suprise using similtanious and devastating strikes. not to mention im sure magneto wouldn't be able to deal with a volcano cannon to the face from orbit. and help em if they have vortex missiles
The Warp doesn't exist in the Marvel universe in the way it exists in 40K, and their sorcerer/psyker-equivalents get on just fine, so they would not suddenly become subject to Perils of Space Marines suddenly showed up.
The Warp doesn't exist in the Marvel universe in the way it exists in 40K, and their sorcerer/psyker-equivalents get on just fine, so they would not suddenly become subject to Perils of Space Marines suddenly showed up.
Well if the warp doesn't exist in marvel universe then the librarians and navigators wouldn't work, and i am to assume no warp drive right? does vortex missiles work off warp?
edit: Also what miko was saying is what i was implying. kinda like a Telepathicily transmitted desease.
The Warp doesn't exist in the Marvel universe in the way it exists in 40K, and their sorcerer/psyker-equivalents get on just fine, so they would not suddenly become subject to Perils of Space Marines suddenly showed up.
Well if the warp doesn't exist in marvel universe then the librarians and navigators wouldn't work, and i am to assume no warp drive right? does vortex missiles work off warp?
I think the point was that, as the likes if Xavier and Frost don't draw their power from the warp, their heads aren't going to go all explodey just because they become exposed to/aware of the Warp.
The Warp doesn't exist in the Marvel universe in the way it exists in 40K, and their sorcerer/psyker-equivalents get on just fine, so they would not suddenly become subject to Perils of Space Marines suddenly showed up.
The thing is, Perils isn't a vulnerability in 40k psykers, it's a fact of life, an intrinsic part of the setting... either the warp and daemons come with the 40k merger, then the telepaths of earth will have open minds that they don't know how to shield against daemonic invasions, because you have to open your mind to use telepathic powers in the marvel universe... or the warp doesn't come with the merger, and the 40k characters suddenly get much more powerful, mystically speaking, because they aren't using up half their power avoiding being possessed.
The Warp doesn't exist in the Marvel universe in the way it exists in 40K, and their sorcerer/psyker-equivalents get on just fine, so they would not suddenly become subject to Perils of Space Marines suddenly showed up.
The thing is, Perils isn't a vulnerability in 40k psykers, it's a fact of life, an intrinsic part of the setting... either the warp and daemons come with the 40k merger, then the telepaths of earth will have open minds that they don't know how to shield against daemonic invasions, because you have to open your mind to use telepathic powers in the marvel universe... or the warp doesn't come with the merger, and the 40k characters suddenly get much more powerful, mystically speaking, because they aren't using up half their power avoiding being possessed.
XD and it's discrepancies like this that make 'what ifs' or crossovers such terrible ideas :p
The Warp doesn't exist in the Marvel universe in the way it exists in 40K, and their sorcerer/psyker-equivalents get on just fine, so they would not suddenly become subject to Perils of Space Marines suddenly showed up.
The thing is, Perils isn't a vulnerability in 40k psykers, it's a fact of life, an intrinsic part of the setting... either the warp and daemons come with the 40k merger, then the telepaths of earth will have open minds that they don't know how to shield against daemonic invasions, because you have to open your mind to use telepathic powers in the marvel universe... or the warp doesn't come with the merger, and the 40k characters suddenly get much more powerful, mystically speaking, because they aren't using up half their power avoiding being possessed.
There's nothing stating that a Psyker is using up half, or any, of his power to avoid being possessed... because it is, indeed, a vulnerability to 40k psykers.
Positing that, because 40K invades this universe, then suddenly everyone in this universe has to obey the rules of 40K is... frankly, that's stupid. The Warp and its effects don't exist in the target setting in the first place, so its characters and such are simply not subject to it at all.
Further, nothing in 40K is saying that, were it not for the Warp, Psykers would be 10 times (or any more in any sense) more powerful. That's all down to personal talent... after all, beta and alpha (even alpha-plus) psykers are believed to exist, and do not seem to be particularly "de-powered" by the presence of the Warp.
Orks will teleport half of the Marvel population into the sun, 40k wins.
By half of the population, I mean the lower half, because orks like trophy .
Now you get an Ork wearing Deadpool's mask.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Orks will teleport half of the Marvel population into the sun, 40k wins.
By half of the population, I mean the lower half, because orks like trophy .
Now you get an Ork wearing Deadpool's mask.
That is, assuming, the tellyporta works proppa! And doesn't just tellyport them a few feet to the left! (or explode)
I think if the tellyporta tellyport the lower half of almost every Marvel hero a few feet on the left, that will still leave injuries significant enough to cause death. Wolverine will not be bothered, as usual, but he will be enslaved by Dark Eldars, so he will wish he died.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I think if the tellyporta tellyport the lower half of almost every Marvel hero a few feet on the left, that will still leave injuries significant enough to cause death. Wolverine will not be bothered, as usual, but he will be enslaved by Dark Eldars, so he will wish he died.
More than likely true! But good thing for the Marvel-verse it's the Astartes and not Orks or Dark Eldar invading!
Old man Fury would have a PARTAY with all of his Life Model Decoys.
And if we want to play the almighty power game, the Beyonder. Love to see how much the 40k universe would sacrifice in order to stop the Beyonder. Lol, maybe the necrons put back together one or a few C'tan?
So many crazies out there in the Marvel 'verse that this thread could (hopefully) go on forever.
But guys like Punisher, Daredevil, etc? They're still just human. A human with a gun is effectively a Guardsman. S3, T3. With some of the training they've got sure give them higher WS and BS. But they're still ultimately human. Due to their autosenses Daredevil doesn't even have that much real benefit over a Space Marine.
Captain America is nothing more than a specimen of HUMAN perfection. While he is certainly above and beyond regular human capability, he's still nowhere near as physically capable or powerful as a Space Marine who are literally superhuman. Captain America has an unbreakable shield. Space Marines have ridiculously tough body armour.
And we know what Adeptus Astartes can do to humans.
Black Widow and Hawkeye? Callidus and Vindicare assassins, except without the body modifications or fanaticism. AKA weaker.
Iron Man is simply an Assault Marine, albeit with additional armament at the expense of any military discipline or training whatsoever.
The Hulk? Give or take a step up on a Daemon Prince. Admittedly he could do some serious damage to an Astartes force.
Thor I would put on par with a Librarian. Excellent at beating things to death, devastatingly powerful weapon, superhuman physique, and ability to blast his foes with lightning/warp powers. Sound about right?
Also, this:
reiner wrote: God, I'd love to shunt the Hulk into the Eye of Terror and see what comes out.
When it comes to psykers and the warp; Firstly, we can just assume in a merger that the Marvel heroes use powers other than the warp for their telepathy and lightning and what-not, especially since so many of them are mutations and therefore have a perfect reason not to use outside access to warp energy for their powers. Absolutely the guys like Xavier and Magneto and the Ice Queen would do devastating damage. But Magneto and Xavier have to sleep. They don't have invulnerable bodies either. Plus things like enemy psykers and the adamantine will special rules totally work against any kind of mind control/power/etc so they'd apply. An orbital bombardment of any kind could end those three no trouble at all, and Space Marines excel at pinpoint strikes.
Space Marines are the ones that get called in by local planetary authorities and the Guard to deal with specific threats like this. In fact from the fluff Space Marines are designed and trained to deal with threats like superheroes. Individuals with greater than usual levels of power are still individuals. Space Marines have to deal with Chaos Space Marines, Renegades, Chaos Psykers, Daemon Princes (Shadow King and Tzeentch, or maybe Shadow King is Be'lakor? Anyone?) all the time. They're better equipped to do the fast-insertion tactical strikes and take out key targets than they are to deal with a heavy slogging war.
On top of all of this don't forget the level of indoctrination all Space Marines undergo. They don't feel doubt or fear. ALL of Marvel's heroes do doubt themselves, their teams, or their reasons for fighting one point or another, and while for sure some marvel heroes are willing to die for the cause, most of them will be too busy trying to survive. Whereas Space Marines don't. fear. death. Only failure.
Plus, Space Marines would have the perfect reason to fight; Earth doesn't live under the Emperor's rule or light. Whereas those resisting the Space Marines are effectively fighting versus a force trying to install Law and Order, forces and causes MANY of Marvel's heroes stand for. Who's to say some of the Marvel characters wouldn't sign up with the Marines?
And Space Marines don't just give up. If beaten back, they'll call in reinforcements and have another go, escalating the level of attack. Space Marines aren't like Marvel villains who can be demoralized or beaten into submission. They won't stop until they're ALL dead or they win.
Plus, part of the reason Marvel heroes always win is they team up. Outnumber to overpower your opponent and you've got him beat. Think of all the movies and comics; in the big group fights with multiple powerful foes, Marvel heroes tend to get their butts handed to them and have to regroup before fighting back. This is one of those situations, except the SM would press the attack 'cause they know better.
Space Marines would have the planet under their control (or, worst case, launch an exterminatus) within 1 year.
Iron Man is simply an Assault Marine, albeit with additional armament at the expense of any military discipline or training whatsoever.
The Hulk? Give or take a step up on a Daemon Prince. Admittedly he could do some serious damage to an Astartes force.
Thor I would put on par with a Librarian. Excellent at beating things to death, devastatingly powerful weapon, superhuman physique, and ability to blast his foes with lightning/warp powers. Sound about right?
Everything else but these three are alright.
Iron Man is not going to be a jump unit. He's essentially an actual zooming Infantry Unit that can move at hypersonic speeds exceeding Mach 13 with a mounted Destroyer Weapons in the form of full-force Unibeam that can just punch through an entire mountain.
Hulk all depends on anger really. But I've yet to see a Daemon Prince move a tectonic plate back together or exchange a punch so powerful it did this to the world they're on: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/2500510-hulk_planet.jpg That's Hulk and Red She-Hulk exchanging a blow. And they proceeded to keep fighting afterwards.
Thor is almost always above the Hulk when fighting seriously. And that includes the shockwaves of his weapon destroying mountaintops, accidentally destroying a planet by missing the Phoenix Force when trying to strike it, massively faster than light travel as shown against Gorr in the span of a few seconds, surviving planetary explosions and walking inside the Sun, Magic weapon that can absorb an entropy bomb intended to destroy every god in the past, present, and future. Negate magic that gives Juggernaut his powers, etc.
Pretty sure Thor is much greater than a Librarian. Not when he's gone up against Glory, Mikaboshi, or Gorr.
Iron Man is simply an Assault Marine, albeit with additional armament at the expense of any military discipline or training whatsoever.
The Hulk? Give or take a step up on a Daemon Prince. Admittedly he could do some serious damage to an Astartes force.
Thor I would put on par with a Librarian. Excellent at beating things to death, devastatingly powerful weapon, superhuman physique, and ability to blast his foes with lightning/warp powers. Sound about right?
Everything else but these three are alright.
Iron Man is not going to be a jump unit. He's essentially an actual zooming Infantry Unit that can move at hypersonic speeds exceeding Mach 13 with a mounted Destroyer Weapons in the form of full-force Unibeam that can just punch through an entire mountain.
Hulk all depends on anger really. But I've yet to see a Daemon Prince move a tectonic plate back together or exchange a punch so powerful it did this to the world they're on: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/2500510-hulk_planet.jpg That's Hulk and Red She-Hulk exchanging a blow. And they proceeded to keep fighting afterwards.
Thor is almost always above the Hulk when fighting seriously. And that includes the shockwaves of his weapon destroying mountaintops, accidentally destroying a planet by missing the Phoenix Force when trying to strike it, massively faster than light travel as shown against Gorr in the span of a few seconds, surviving planetary explosions and walking inside the Sun, Magic weapon that can absorb an entropy bomb intended to destroy every god in the past, present, and future. Negate magic that gives Juggernaut his powers, etc.
Pretty sure Thor is much greater than a Librarian. Not when he's gone up against Glory, Mikaboshi, or Gorr.
Im not sure how a unibeam could count as a D weapon. considering most D weapons involve ripping time space or melting through buildings.
Hulk i could see just getting the boon of corn if he went to the eye. whether he cares or not is another thing.
Marvel wins hands down. 40K is a stupidly overpowered universe, but Marvel is one of the few that is even more stupidly overpowered.
MU earth has defeated technologically and numerically much superior invasions before.
On a side note, if the 40K invasion means no Warp for the 40k forces, that also means that there are no psykers with the 40K forces, as 40K psykers draw on the Warp to fuel their powers. No Warp, no fuel, no powers.
I'd put even money on Wolverine versus a Bloodthirste (but I'd only want to view it from a safe distance, say the next continent).
I'm also unsure how anyone can manage to sneak up on Xavier without Magneto's helmet (good luck taking that off him!).
I mean, most of the X-Men and their villains are at least comparable to Alpha level psykers in 40K. Xavier, Jean Grey, Magneto and a few others easily rate Alpha Plus. In 40K, those are killed before they can learn to harness their powers because they're considered too powerful.
And they aren't even the heaviest hitters in the MU, they're tier 2 at best.
It depends on which particular Marvel characters are in mind.
Certainly human level heroes are toast. Their skills are formidable, but their main protection in comics is plot armour.
However the human heavy hitters, as have already been mentioned, Scarlet Witch and Hope Summers (polymath, able to replicate any mutant's powers at the peak of their ability) could probably just destroy the entire Battlebarge and everyone connected to it with one, "no more Space Marines". Phoenix (if we revive her from being rendered to nothing by Hope and the Witch) lives by eating stars. She would probably pick her teeth (beak?) with a full powered C'Tan.
Thor is a literal god in Marvel terms, and at his best is probably not far off Phoenix in power. Hulk is immensely powerful, but we'll grant that his powers are limited to planet based assaults as he can't fly, and probably can't survive in space.
Magneto is claimed to possess a personal magnetic field equal to that of a planet, and can also manipulate Earth's own magnetic field for his own purposes. He can manipulate all metals that respond to magnetism, and on one occasion ripped the adamantium out of Wolverine by liquefying it within his body. If there is any magnetic metal in the attacking Space Marines' equipment then they are toast. He could probably pull the Battlebarge out of orbit and crash it if he had to.
Franklin Richards as a boy of five years in age, created an entire planet that basically replicated our own, including its inhabitants, as a refuge for the Fantastic Four and the Avengers when they were in danger of being killed by Onslaught (a manifestation of Xavier's dark side). When those people wanted to return a Celestial had to volunteer to go to sleep forever in order to provide enough power to maintain this world that Richards created in a childish panic. He could probably make the Chaos Gods cry for their mummies if he saw them as a threat to his loved ones.
Of course then there's Squirrel Girl. Her power is very simple... she always wins. Her plot armour is invincible.
The truly shocking thing though? While the Marvel universe might be seen as insane, the power levels of its heroes still fall far short of many of the regular heroes in the DC universe.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: The truly shocking thing though? While the Marvel universe might be seen as insane, the power levels of its heroes still fall far short of many of the regular heroes in the DC universe.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: The truly shocking thing though? While the Marvel universe might be seen as insane, the power levels of its heroes still fall far short of many of the regular heroes in the DC universe.
Space Marines invade DC Earth.
Superman.
The end.
End of superman ofc. Almost every race from 40k would have wits and logistics to find kryptonite and shove it up sups ass. Unless it's IG and they don't die of laughter first after seeing a guy wearing pants outside his suit.
Other heroes? Necrons kill the sun. Magneto? Nids. Galactus? One headbutt from Gork(or Mork). Thor? Emperor.
I dont know many marvell heroes but even their universe full of almost unkilable dork's Mary Sue guys would crumble under sheer riduculousness of 40k.
Would take some planning I guess but that's one call to Tzeenth. Doesn't pants man fall into traps left and right in comics and movies. Not to mention that I heard DC themselves claimed that Batman would win with Superman so all it takes is a resoueceful, clever man. You can find a few in 40k some with million years of experience. Yeah I think literaly up his ass, airborne
Necrons? Forge hacks into their mainframe and reprograms them all to fight for MU Earth side. Also, Magneto + iron warriors = one large pile of scrap metal.
Tyranids? Not even a blip. The X-men have fought off several Nid-like space critters invasions. Hell, Wolverine once took out what amounts to a Genestealer infestation singlehandedly.
In X-Men: Magik miniseries a group of five of them basically stopped a Daemonic incursion.
Emperor? Xavier is a telepath of equal or even greater skill.
And that's just one group of the many superheroes that inhabit MU Earth.
In fact, Magneto's powers alone could probably do the trick against any and all foes 40K has to offer with the possible exception of Daemons. He has one of the most ill-thought-out superpowers ever. Controlling electromagnetic fields? You mean, the very forces holding your molecules together?
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: The truly shocking thing though? While the Marvel universe might be seen as insane, the power levels of its heroes still fall far short of many of the regular heroes in the DC universe.
Space Marines invade DC Earth.
Superman.
The end.
End of superman ofc. Almost every race from 40k would have wits and logistics to find kryptonite and shove it up sups ass. Unless it's IG and they don't die of laughter first after seeing a guy wearing pants outside his suit.
Other heroes? Necrons kill the sun. Magneto? Nids. Galactus? One headbutt from Gork(or Mork). Thor? Emperor.
I dont know many marvell heroes but even their universe full of almost unkilable dork's Mary Sue guys would crumble under sheer riduculousness of 40k.
Lobo handles all of these listed with ease. After an all-night bender of cheap beer and old hotdogs, all Lobo has to do is let one rip and the Necrons will go back to sleep for another 60 million years, the Tyranids will turn tail and flee the galaxy as fast as their narvhals can take them, never to return, and the Emperor will pray (to himself) that the Golden Throne has a Febreeze dispenser.
Also, following the events of Lobo's Back's Back, Lobo cannot die. Neither Heaven nor Hell will accept his soul (since he totally wrecked both places the last time he was there). This is also a being who can staple his own severed limbs back on while cracking wise, has all the powers that Wolverine has (+10), and a bitchin' space-bike.
Eh, I think Lobo and Doomrider would kick it off as best of buds starting a bromance unlike any have seen before and those two just wouldn't give a feth about the war.
I would like to see Black Bolt vs. Every Noise Marine just to see how many syllables it would take to wipe out the Noise Marines.
Happyjew wrote: I like how the OP specifically said Space Marines vs MU, and people are claiming 40K wins because Necrons, Nids and Daemons.
I don't think even the inclusion of them would throw the war in 40k's favor. The Marvel Universe contains a lot of god level beings some of which (like Eternity) could wipe out life all life in the Universe and who knows what more to something as small as a single galaxy - when compared to the universe.
valace2 wrote: So I have seen the silly comparisons of Star Wars/Trek vs the Imperium of Man, and due to its sheer size and the scope of the setting there really is no comparison between the settings. I have also seen some even more screwy "what ifs" where the Imperium of Man came to our Earth and it was simply a backward primitive planet.
My question is how would an Astarte Chapter fare if they were were to come to the Earth of the Marvel Universe? I know that should the full brunt of the Imperium fall on Earth is would be over in a matter of seconds. But how would a company of Astartes fare against say the Avengers?
Astartes are the most perfectly engineered warriors but how could even a squad of Assault Terminators manage the Hulk?
How would a pre Daemon Prince Angron fare against Wolverine?
Characters such as Thor or Superman from DC would still be OP and probably be able to manage even the primarchs but for now we could leave them out of the conversation.
Participate or not, just on a Marvel kick at the moment and bored.
Oooh, this sounds interesting and worthwhile. Okay, here's my postulations:
1 - captain america is a supersoldier, so he's a marine equivalent.
2 - captain america and his mighty shield were able to tussle with thor (on that island where thor was trying to take loki from the shield transport plane) without getting seriously injured.
3 - iron man was also able to fight thor without getting seriously injured, and he's wearing power armour. So a marine can be roughly compared to captain america wearing ironman armour.
4 - hawkeye and scarlett johanson are largely just humans. Yes hawkeye does some good ranged firepower, but its over when scarlett reaches him in close combat.
5 - a company of marines will have an arsenal of tanks, aircraft, and support weapons (no need to weigh into the librarian/warp debate at this point).
6 - the hulk just can't be beaten. Its like gravity suddenly flowing upwards, it can't happen.
So my conclusion - everyone dies a horrible horrible death except the hulk. Only the city gets wrecked a lot more. The hulk jumps into orbit and destroys the marine's space ship, then jumps back to earth.
Power armour is effective personal body armour, but it's not Iron Man armour. Iron Man can (at full power) lift upwards of 85 tons over his head, and his repulsors can level buildings.
I would say that an unarmoured Marine is superior to main universe Captain America mano a mano, but Cap's strength, when dealing with units above his power level, is tactical organization of the Avenger's heavy hitters. Getting there firstest, fastest, with the mostest.
To be frank, without the altitude advantage given by space launching pads, a company of marines wouldn't last even against normal human level militaries in the world today. Sure, they'd do a lot of damage, but anti-armour weapons today would take them down. Marvel U has the normal militaries and super heroes (as does DC).
The kind of door to door fighting necessary to conquer Earth would be hell for Marines. It would be like fighting insurgents in Iraq, where Iraq is the entire world.
valace2 wrote: So I have seen the silly comparisons of Star Wars/Trek vs the Imperium of Man, and due to its sheer size and the scope of the setting there really is no comparison between the settings. I have also seen some even more screwy "what ifs" where the Imperium of Man came to our Earth and it was simply a backward primitive planet.
My question is how would an Astarte Chapter fare if they were were to come to the Earth of the Marvel Universe? I know that should the full brunt of the Imperium fall on Earth is would be over in a matter of seconds. But how would a company of Astartes fare against say the Avengers?
Astartes are the most perfectly engineered warriors but how could even a squad of Assault Terminators manage the Hulk?
How would a pre Daemon Prince Angron fare against Wolverine?
Characters such as Thor or Superman from DC would still be OP and probably be able to manage even the primarchs but for now we could leave them out of the conversation.
Participate or not, just on a Marvel kick at the moment and bored.
Oooh, this sounds interesting and worthwhile. Okay, here's my postulations:
1 - captain america is a supersoldier, so he's a marine equivalent.
2 - captain america and his mighty shield were able to tussle with thor (on that island where thor was trying to take loki from the shield transport plane) without getting seriously injured.
3 - iron man was also able to fight thor without getting seriously injured, and he's wearing power armour. So a marine can be roughly compared to captain america wearing ironman armour.
4 - hawkeye and scarlett johanson are largely just humans. Yes hawkeye does some good ranged firepower, but its over when scarlett reaches him in close combat.
5 - a company of marines will have an arsenal of tanks, aircraft, and support weapons (no need to weigh into the librarian/warp debate at this point).
6 - the hulk just can't be beaten. Its like gravity suddenly flowing upwards, it can't happen.
So my conclusion - everyone dies a horrible horrible death except the hulk. Only the city gets wrecked a lot more. The hulk jumps into orbit and destroys the marine's space ship, then jumps back to earth.
Movies =/= Comics
The movies toned down a lot of their stats by quite a margin, especially Hulk and Thor. Though Thor and Hulk can go toe to toe for a while, until Hulk's rage and thus strength surpasses a certain point.
But yeah, Captain America would likely be stuck in quite the jam against Astartes and almost definitely overcome. Iron man, well I guess then one has to wonder which of his many suits will he be wearing? Something light like the Centurion? Oh, is he ever so fethed. His old 2007 comics battle armor which while only a bit bulkier than his movie suit, weighs upwards of a ton? Interesting fight, probably could go toe to toe against a few Astartes at a time. Hulkbuster? Gonna need a lot of anti armor real fast, and maybe fire Mephiston out of a demolished cannon while your at it.
Hah. Doom would ally with the Marines to become Earth's Planetary Governor. There's nothing those so-called 'heroes' would be able to do.
PS: Sentry and Xavier are no more. Magneto and Emma Frost had their abilities quite reduced in power after the last Phoenix saga. Avengers are pretty reduced in power and are basically disassembled, while the new Cap (ex-Falcon) used pym particles to hold in prison a LOT of heroes. X-Men went baddy.
Only Doom can save Earth as it stands now!
(Oh, and Doom + Loki are Tzeentch's manifestations in Earth, but don't tell the Emp's glory boys that!)
You would have a select few heroes/villains who would just wreck the Imperium's face. The rest not so much. Magneto could pretty much handle them all on his own. Pheonix is basically a high Beta or maybe a borderline Alpha level Psyker. Wolverine would fair pretty well due to regeneration but his adamantium claws would be nulled pretty much. Remember that 40k uses adamantium on everything and it gets cut through just like other metals. It would take a while to kill him but eventually he would die. Hulk would be basically a super-Warboss. Hellfire rounds there. Thor could fry them and his hammer would be like a Thunder Hammer that strikes at Intitivate, but it wouldn't be much help vs things like Storm Shields. Captain America would close to Space Marines in that he is superhuman. But remember that Marines also have 19 organs that give them stuff other than strength such as the ability to ignore sleep or instantly clot wounds, as well as incredible levels of training and cold, calculating brains. They move in squads and use advanced tactics, whereas there is no-one who can really train Steve Rogers to be Superhuman, not to mention the huge guns and impenetrable armour. Humans or weak characters like Hawkeye or Toad would vanish in seconds. Imagine Hawkeye having a shootout with the likes of Telion. It would be over fairly quickly.
Iron Man might fair well due to having an army of suits to control and his agile flight abilities. Certainly, much more agile and maneurable than Jump Packs. But how would he fair vs Hunters, Stalkers, Whirlwind Hyperios, Flakk Missiles, Thunderhawks, Stormravens, Stormtalons? How would his weapon systems fair vs Power Armour? Or worse, Terminator Armour?
Then you have guys like Professor X. Would he be a match for a trained Librarian? If so, what level? A Codicer? An Epistolary? Would be be able to take on a Chief Librarian?
I also think I've heard of one Marvel character who's whispers can shatter rock with the power of them? Lives on the moon or something, but Marvel has that level of power.
Earth has ICBMs. Battle-Barge has Void shields and Cyclonic Bombardment and Macro-Cannons and Lances which can destroy whole city blocks in a single shot. Their aircraft far outstrips anythinf we have in terms of firepower, speed, maneuverability (the Stormtalon) and durability, as well as being able to carry a large amount of Space Marines.
Honestly, its a tough question. But I'd have to give it to Imperium. A society built upon making war vs modern Earth with superheroes? Let's face it, once they realised they have characters like Magneto and Pheonix to face, they'd simply Lance strike him from orbit (can't affect laser energy with metal-bending) and likely send in a Culexus Assassin. Assuming that if the two were to coexist, Pheonix and Prof X and the rest would have their powers just like 40k psykers (a mutated gene which connects them to the warp). Otherwise, Exterminatus and leave. That's assuming ahe's an Alpha Psyker, otherwise they'd have a few Librarians deal with her.
If its great crusade era and before ullanor the emperor and a legion or two hundreds of capitol ships vs non marvel military "nukes could blow up battle ships" er no void shields. hulk would smash every thing let him smash the emperor he would die in a instant all marvel psykers vs emperor ha they all die.
Deadshot wrote: Remember that 40k uses adamantium on everything and it gets cut through just like other metals.
If by everything you mean Terminator armour, than sure.
And Power Armour and Chainswords and Kraken Rounds and Power Swords and all their vehicles.
Actually power armour is only really made of ceramite plating not adamantium. Also I'm fairly sure that adamantium is only used in rarer tech like terminator armour and super-heavy vehicles. Otherwise they just use plasteel and other more ubiquitous material since adamantium is too valuable and rare to be used in everything like you say they do.
Deadshot wrote: Remember that 40k uses adamantium on everything and it gets cut through just like other metals.
If by everything you mean Terminator armour, than sure.
And Power Armour and Chainswords and Kraken Rounds and Power Swords and all their vehicles.
Actually power armour is only really made of ceramite plating not adamantium. Also I'm fairly sure that adamantium is only used in rarer tech like terminator armour and super-heavy vehicles. Otherwise they just use plasteel and other more ubiquitous material since adamantium is too valuable and rare to be used in everything like you say they do.
Quick googling has conflicting reports. Some results say Power Armour contains plasteel/adamantium layers but mostly ceramite. But even that I'm dubious about given that Ceramite is a ceramic-like material and thus not very strong (although very hard, which is not exactly what you want in armour like the marine wear). What they all agree on is that it is rare, and I fear my meaning may have been miscommunicated. I was referring only to Marine level gear. Kraken Bolts for certain I know have a solid adamantium tip for improved penetration, and I'm fairly certain a lot of Marine vehicles, definitely the Land Raiders and Flyers, have adamantium plates. Even if it is only stuff like Land Raiders and TDA, look at how easy it is for the Imperium to cut through it. Melta, Plasma, Lascannon, Grav-guns which basically ignore the fact its indestructible. Whereas in MU seemingly nothing can do gak to Wolverine's Adamantium except for Magneto (who is easily dealt with via Lance strike).
Happyjew wrote: Originally, adamantium bullets could pierce adamantium. Though I think that might have been retcon'd.
In which universe? And which sources? Movie-verse says no (X-men Origins Wolverine, shoots his skull with a Adamantium bullet, doesn't penetrate). In 40k, its down to the writer at the time.
Deadshot wrote: Remember that 40k uses adamantium on everything and it gets cut through just like other metals.
If by everything you mean Terminator armour, than sure.
And Power Armour and Chainswords and Kraken Rounds and Power Swords and all their vehicles.
Actually power armour is only really made of ceramite plating not adamantium. Also I'm fairly sure that adamantium is only used in rarer tech like terminator armour and super-heavy vehicles. Otherwise they just use plasteel and other more ubiquitous material since adamantium is too valuable and rare to be used in everything like you say they do.
All battleships are armored with meters-thick plates of "plasma-tempered adamantium".
There is nothing in the 40k universe that can compete with even some very common characters, like Shadowcat, who can be invisible and phase through matter and just destroy electronics. Nevermind the extremely powerful characters, like Phoenix, and the fact that there are a zillion characters who pretty much can't die.
40k Psykers would be facerolled by Dr. Strange or Clea. After all, the Sorceror Supreme is the greatest practitioner of magic in the *universe*. Doc Strange has singlehandedly tricked, staved off, or outright defeated most of the Marvel versions of the Greater Demons, so he clearly has the whole Chaos thing figured out. Heck, his butler could probably defeat the Emperor.
The Marvel Universe is the only universe where there is a pissing match of who is more omnipotent than the other. It's the only universe where being a "God" (like Thor, Odin or Hercules) pretty low on the "infinitely powerful" totem pole. For example, Beyonder, the Celestials, Galactus, Death and Eternity. Being a great demon prince ruling your own dimension is barely a footnote.
Let's not forget that the Marvel superheroes have defeated or staved off a good chunk of these omnipotent beings, plus the Kree and Skrull empires (that would be a stand-in for the Eldar at the height of their civilization).
At the end of the day, a Marvel comic would read more like, an army of 500 billion have come invading from an alternate universe 40,000 years in the future: can these 6 superheroes defeat them all and save Earth?
All battleships are armored with meters-thick plates of "plasma-tempered adamantium".
It's fairly common in 40K. Less so in the MU
It's not the same adamantium though, because marvel adamantium couldn't be tempered by plasma Kinda moot, because Marvel has an answer for pretty much anything. Adamantium, meet Magneto. Imperial Knight, meet Celestial.
And when all else fails, the marvel side gets to time travel back, tailor their list, or replay any turn they don't like. Plus, Loki cheats.
It's not the same adamantium though, because marvel adamantium couldn't be tempered by plasma Kinda moot, because Marvel has an answer for pretty much anything. Adamantium, meet Magneto. Imperial Knight, meet Celestial.
It is the same Adamantium. The difference being that MU doesn't have the ability to temper via plasma, nor does it have access to weapons specifically designed to cut through adamantium like Meltaguns and Plasmaguns (man-portable), Lascannons and Demolisher Cannons (vehicle sized), Turbo-lasers, Meltacannons and Volcano Cannons (Titan/Superheavy) or Macro-Cannons and Lances on Ships. Whereas the MU is still working with things like Steel and titanium, adamantium being restricted to a select few individuals like Wolverine. Captain America has sokething similar in his shield, and Thir with his Hammer, but its not the same. Don't forget, the Imperial Palace were constructed by Rogal Dorn out of layers upon layers and layers of adamantium, and we all know the Imperial Palace is literally the most well defended place, likely of any setting in modern fiction. Horus's bombardment was almost able to break through that.
Thor's hammer isn't made of adamantium. It was made from another fictional metal called uru. Which, depending on the source, had to be forged in the core of a dying star.
And Marvel still has plenty of vibranium, anti-metal, carbonadium, etc. All other fictional metals that are comparable to adamantium and have been used by characters to pierce adamantium or shield against adamantium - or in the case of a vibranium isotope, shield against and absorb the kinetic energy of a nuclear blast making it seem like nothing more than a quite whisper. Vibranium, which a few iterations of Captain America's shield has been made of, can absorb kinetic energy to strengthen the bonds between its atoms. And despite being called a super rare metal that Wakanda controls the amount available in the world, almost every Marvel character and organization has gotten their hands on vibranium at some point and may or may not still be using it.
King Pariah wrote: Thor's hammer isn't made of adamantium. It was made from another fictional metal called uru. Which, depending on the source, had to be forged in the core of a dying star.
And Marvel still has plenty of vibranium, anti-metal, carbonadium, etc. All other fictional metals that are comparable to adamantium and have been used by characters to pierce adamantium or shield against adamantium - or in the case of a vibranium isotope, shield against and absorb the kinetic energy of a nuclear blast making it seem like nothing more than a quite whisper. Vibranium, which a few iterations of Captain America's shield has been made of, can absorb kinetic energy to strengthen the bonds between its atoms. And despite being called a super rare metal that Wakanda controls the amount available in the world, almost every Marvel character and organization has gotten their hands on vibranium at some point and may or may not still be using it.
I said something similar[i], as in, Adamantium, Vibranium and Uru, are all fictional indestructible supermetals with characteristics entirely depending on the comic/script writer.
What's your point? As noted, that weapon was a bullet, not a missile. Imperium uses missiles. Lots of them. Be they Cyclonic, capable of unleashing kinetic energy that obliterates the surface of the planet, Melta Torpedoes that reduce everything for a few hundred miles to liquid slag and then vapourised under the heat, or via Virus Bombs in the chapter is particularly non-conformist. At which point, not even Iron Man's suits will protect and the only chance of survival would be to seek shelter in airtight bunkers. Remember that on Isstvan, the Life Eater was able to penetrate through Power Armour's grills and vents, despite Astartes plate being sealed even against hard vacuum. Not to mention the firestorm afterwards, as the rapid decomposition of every biological material on Earth creates a charnal house of flammable gases, promptly ignited by Lance Strike and bombardment.
Deadshot wrote:Pheonix is basically a high Beta or maybe a borderline Alpha level Psyker.
You're joking, right? Phoenix is Alpha Plus. When she went crazy she ran around the galaxy causing problems for the Shi'ar and doing Cyclonic Torpedo impersonations with nothing to help but her costume.
Deadshot wrote:Pheonix is basically a high Beta or maybe a borderline Alpha level Psyker.
You're joking, right? Phoenix is Alpha Plus. When she went crazy she ran around the galaxy causing problems for the Shi'ar and doing Cyclonic Torpedo impersonations with nothing to help but her costume.
Jean Grey - ultimate universe - also stopped what was practically a planet wide orbital bombardment of nukes with what looks like 1 nuke per every 50 sq meters by halting their fall, dismantling them and then slamming all the fissionable material together hard enough to cause it all to go supercritical and the resulting explosion she contained in an area about the size of Manhattan island far above the earth's surface. This was all at the expense of her own life.
As the Phoenix, she has gone toe to toe with the Beyonder and as the phoenix force, she has been seen annihilating entire planets in the blink of an eye as seen in the newer Nova comics where she turns an entire planet guarded by a herald of Galactus into dust - including the herald - within seconds.
Yes. Phoenix is possibly the most powerful 'hero' in the marvel universe, with the Galactus-level destruction potential. Beyonder is the single most powerful entity they have ever written, and gaming against him would be pointless. "All your models are now Smurfs! I'm bored now."
There are many other reality-altering artifacts, like the infinity gems, and reality altering powers like the power cosmic.
Re: Adamantium -- it isn't indestructible. After all, humans took it out of Wolverine. Nor is vibranium or Uru. Thor's hammer is also enchanted, and very little in the universe can affect it.
clively wrote: Honestly, I would put the armed forces of at least the largest three nations on our real planet against a chapter of marines. 1000 marines (plus support) just isn't that much.
The situation as I see it is:
- Space Marine battlebarge enters orbit.
- Chapter Master broadcasts something along the lines of "Surrender or Die"
- China, Russia and the US moves their respective leaders into hidden remote locations.
- Space Marine drop pods land in 4 cities and begin shooting everything up.
- Armed forces of those nations respond.
- Space Marines continue to make a mess of things.
- China/Russia/US use small tactical nukes to take them out.
- China/Russia/US point larger ICBM nukes at Battlebarge in orbit.
- Battlebarge takes the hint and leaves.
I know the lore says that a single marine is enough for most planets, but seriously, if you have 100,000 guns, rockets, missiles and serious weapons trained on that one marine then he isn't going to be able to do squat. Also, 1,000 space marines isn't going to be enough to take out the entire C&C structure of Earth's armed forces.
clively wrote: Honestly, I would put the armed forces of at least the largest three nations on our real planet against a chapter of marines. 1000 marines (plus support) just isn't that much.
The situation as I see it is:
- Space Marine battlebarge enters orbit.
- Chapter Master broadcasts something along the lines of "Surrender or Die"
- China, Russia and the US moves their respective leaders into hidden remote locations.
- Space Marine drop pods land in 4 cities and begin shooting everything up.
- Armed forces of those nations respond.
- Space Marines continue to make a mess of things.
- China/Russia/US use small tactical nukes to take them out.
- China/Russia/US point larger ICBM nukes at Battlebarge in orbit.
- Battlebarge takes the hint and leaves.
I know the lore says that a single marine is enough for most planets, but seriously, if you have 100,000 guns, rockets, missiles and serious weapons trained on that one marine then he isn't going to be able to do squat. Also, 1,000 space marines isn't going to be enough to take out the entire C&C structure of Earth's armed forces.
Or it could go like this:
-Inquisition arrives.
-Exterminatus.
Or it could go like this:
Imperium arrives
High Evolutionary devolves them into Homo Erectus and then stick them all into Omium steel cages so he can re-evolve former astartes back into astartes one at a time in order to help further his knowledge in building the perfect race. Or even a god as he himself sees fit.
Imperium arrives
High Evolutionary devolves them into Homo Erectus and then stick them all into Omium steel cages so he can re-evolve former astartes back into astartes one at a time in order to help further his knowledge in building the perfect race. Or even a god as he himself sees fit.
Imperium arrives
High Evolutionary devolves them into Homo Erectus and then stick them all into Omium steel cages so he can re-evolve former astartes back into astartes one at a time in order to help further his knowledge in building the perfect race. Or even a god as he himself sees fit.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Doesn't't Colonel Iron Hand Straken have an adamantium body now? While not Wolverine level, he might take on other flesh based heroes himself.
Id love to see that fight.
but really it is silly trying to compare fictional materials of the same name to other fictional materials unless we could get somekinda base line (like how do they react to various steels cross fluff)
also wonder how MU would deal with void shields (or if it would work)
Taking away all warp powered things would just be a hella handy cap against 40k so it seems very unfair.
Medium of Death wrote: Surely any Marvel Psychics suddenly become vulnerable to the predations of Daemons?
Does not need to. The soul of a psyker, including a space marine archivist, is a beacon that attract the creature of the warp. The creature of the warp have trouble invading stuff because they need to pierce the fabric of reality to do so. The Marvel Universe has so many alternate reality, and retcons, and reboots, that the fabric of reality is wet paper tissue thin then. One archivist comes into the Marvel Universe, and bang, full-scale demonic invasion. Good luck killing stuff that cannot be kill. Enjoy your Angron versus the Hulk match.
One key difference between the Marvel Universe and the Warhammer Universe is that in Warhammer (and 40k), it's a battle between factions, and even if "evil" wins, there is a winning faction (Chaos), and a loser (Imperium). The 40k world is also limited to one galaxy, right?
In the Marvel Universe, the difference between winning and losing, at times, has been the existence of the entire universe.
Another key difference is that, except for Uncle Ben, nobody stays dead in the Marvel Universe. Even Bucky came back.
Medium of Death wrote: Surely any Marvel Psychics suddenly become vulnerable to the predations of Daemons?
Does not need to. The soul of a psyker, including a space marine archivist, is a beacon that attract the creature of the warp. The creature of the warp have trouble invading stuff because they need to pierce the fabric of reality to do so. The Marvel Universe has so many alternate reality, and retcons, and reboots, that the fabric of reality is wet paper tissue thin then. One archivist comes into the Marvel Universe, and bang, full-scale demonic invasion. Good luck killing stuff that cannot be kill. Enjoy your Angron versus the Hulk match.
Ehm... no.
Being that the Warp does not exist in the MU, then having Space Marines... or anything else from the 40K universe... invade it does not suddenly make the characters of the MU subject to the rules of the 40K universe. So while the invading 40Kers might still need to deal with Perils and all that, the MU psychics and wizards and all don't. Their powers aren't Warp-based.
The warp is the alternate dimension where psychic powers exist. I've seen on some of the cartoons where the psykers (like professor x) 'look' or move/travel their minds through this dimension. Thats pretty much what cerebro does, focusing in on the 'mutant' energies.
The warp isn't the difference between the two universes, the existence of daemons is. In the marvel universe, the warp is tranquil and free for the most part, but you still get the occasions where a dead psychic character is lurking in there biding their time to attack someone back in the real world.
I don't think so. The psychic dimension that MU characters sometimes visit is called the Astral Plane, not the Warp. (And no, it's a different Astral from the AD&D one)
Bran Dawri wrote: I don't think so. The psychic dimension that MU characters sometimes visit is called the Astral Plane, not the Warp. (And no, it's a different Astral from the AD&D one)
Well the whole concept of the Warp is that it has always been there, and that 40k is simply a future version of the real world, as opposed to MU which is an alternate universe to our own and takes place in the same time period. Assuming that the Warp has always been there, is it really that hard to imagine that it has been discovered and was known by people throughout the ages? People have been called witches and sorcorers for centuries for seemingly mystical powers. Is it really a stretch to say what MU calls Astral Plane, 40k calls the Warp? Also don't forget that in 40k timeline, the Warp didn't really start throwing things about until the Long Night, somewhere between the DAoT and Great Crusade, beforehand it was generally peaceful enough. Bringing 40k stuff to MU migt cause it react similarly.
Bran Dawri wrote: I don't think so. The psychic dimension that MU characters sometimes visit is called the Astral Plane, not the Warp. (And no, it's a different Astral from the AD&D one)
Well the whole concept of the Warp is that it has always been there, and that 40k is simply a future version of the real world, as opposed to MU which is an alternate universe to our own and takes place in the same time period. Assuming that the Warp has always been there, is it really that hard to imagine that it has been discovered and was known by people throughout the ages? People have been called witches and sorcorers for centuries for seemingly mystical powers. Is it really a stretch to say what MU calls Astral Plane, 40k calls the Warp? Also don't forget that in 40k timeline, the Warp didn't really start throwing things about until the Long Night, somewhere between the DAoT and Great Crusade, beforehand it was generally peaceful enough. Bringing 40k stuff to MU migt cause it react similarly.
Except there are multiple astral planes and each astral plane is believed to be a parallel universe where everything is made up of ectoplasm as a opposed to atoms. Other than that, the astral planes are nigh identical to the standard Marvel universe except vastly populated by the Mummudrai - who are the other souls that could have possessed the physical bodies in the standard Marvel universe and that your soul had to beat to possess the body you currently reside in - for whom time exists (unlike the Warp).
Also, some psychics draw their powers from the "Brimstone" Dimension, Crimson Cosmos - which is where Juggernaut also draws his powers from, Dream Dimension - another area that Doctor Strange can draw power from although risky, The Continuum - in which Amatsu-Mikaboshi (now the Chaos King) resides as the primal embodiment of nothingness and primordial chaos that served as a natural opposing power to both Eternity and Death and has been around far longer than any of the Marvel Universes... this is probably the realm most akin to the Warp and very few individuals draw their power from this realm much less are those who do so of their own free will, and etc.
Assuming that the Warp crossed over, I think it'd probably cross over into the Continuum and Amatsu-Mikaboshi wouldn't be so nice as to team up with the chaos gods, more likely he would try to make them subservient and mere extensions of his will... after he devoured them as he has done with many other god-like entities.
Bran Dawri wrote: I don't think so. The psychic dimension that MU characters sometimes visit is called the Astral Plane, not the Warp. (And no, it's a different Astral from the AD&D one)
Well the whole concept of the Warp is that it has always been there, and that 40k is simply a future version of the real world, as opposed to MU which is an alternate universe to our own and takes place in the same time period. Assuming that the Warp has always been there, is it really that hard to imagine that it has been discovered and was known by people throughout the ages? People have been called witches and sorcorers for centuries for seemingly mystical powers. Is it really a stretch to say what MU calls Astral Plane, 40k calls the Warp? Also don't forget that in 40k timeline, the Warp didn't really start throwing things about until the Long Night, somewhere between the DAoT and Great Crusade, beforehand it was generally peaceful enough. Bringing 40k stuff to MU migt cause it react similarly.
Except there are multiple astral planes and each astral plane is believed to be a parallel universe where everything is made up of ectoplasm as a opposed to atoms. Other than that, the astral planes are nigh identical to the standard Marvel universe except vastly populated by the Mummudrai - who are the other souls that could have possessed the physical bodies in the standard Marvel universe and that your soul had to beat to possess the body you currently reside in - for whom time exists (unlike the Warp).
Also, some psychics draw their powers from the "Brimstone" Dimension, Crimson Cosmos - which is where Juggernaut also draws his powers from, Dream Dimension - another area that Doctor Strange can draw power from although risky, The Continuum - in which Amatsu-Mikaboshi (now the Chaos King) resides as the primal embodiment of nothingness and primordial chaos that served as a natural opposing power to both Eternity and Death and has been around far longer than any of the Marvel Universes... this is probably the realm most akin to the Warp and very few individuals draw their power from this realm much less are those who do so of their own free will, and etc.
Assuming that the Warp crossed over, I think it'd probably cross over into the Continuum and Amatsu-Mikaboshi wouldn't be so nice as to team up with the chaos gods, more likely he would try to make them subservient and mere extensions of his will... after he devoured them as he has done with many other god-like entities.
Honestly, most of what you are describing sounds exactly like the Warp. Daemons have to overpower your souls in order to possess a psyker; when they do its usually because the Psyker has overstretched himself and left vulnerable to attack by Daemons. Different versions and those other "dimensions" for lack of better word really just sound like different Chaos God's patronage, including minor gods. For example, Juggernaut sounds like a mix of Khorne or Nurgle, whereas Strange is could be considered Tzeentchian in some respects. Chaos King himself sounds like what the Chaos Gods are, embodiments of a raw emotion, concept or emotion. The only thing that's different is the time, and that is easily explained, because the time difference in 40k is caused by the roiling currents of the Warp taking them to a different entry point a galaxy away much quicker and in Marvel time (close to 21st Century) the Warp is pretty calm and stable.
Of course, they aren't exactly alike, granted, but I'd wager that the original creators of GW and 40k took some sort of inspiration from Marvel in creating the Warp. Even 40k Psykers have some connection to the X-Men psychics like Jean Grey and Xavier, in that their abilities are caused by a genetic mutation.
Bran Dawri wrote: I don't think so. The psychic dimension that MU characters sometimes visit is called the Astral Plane, not the Warp. (And no, it's a different Astral from the AD&D one)
Well the whole concept of the Warp is that it has always been there, and that 40k is simply a future version of the real world, as opposed to MU which is an alternate universe to our own and takes place in the same time period. Assuming that the Warp has always been there, is it really that hard to imagine that it has been discovered and was known by people throughout the ages? People have been called witches and sorcorers for centuries for seemingly mystical powers. Is it really a stretch to say what MU calls Astral Plane, 40k calls the Warp? Also don't forget that in 40k timeline, the Warp didn't really start throwing things about until the Long Night, somewhere between the DAoT and Great Crusade, beforehand it was generally peaceful enough. Bringing 40k stuff to MU migt cause it react similarly.
Except there are multiple astral planes and each astral plane is believed to be a parallel universe where everything is made up of ectoplasm as a opposed to atoms. Other than that, the astral planes are nigh identical to the standard Marvel universe except vastly populated by the Mummudrai - who are the other souls that could have possessed the physical bodies in the standard Marvel universe and that your soul had to beat to possess the body you currently reside in - for whom time exists (unlike the Warp).
Also, some psychics draw their powers from the "Brimstone" Dimension, Crimson Cosmos - which is where Juggernaut also draws his powers from, Dream Dimension - another area that Doctor Strange can draw power from although risky, The Continuum - in which Amatsu-Mikaboshi (now the Chaos King) resides as the primal embodiment of nothingness and primordial chaos that served as a natural opposing power to both Eternity and Death and has been around far longer than any of the Marvel Universes... this is probably the realm most akin to the Warp and very few individuals draw their power from this realm much less are those who do so of their own free will, and etc.
Assuming that the Warp crossed over, I think it'd probably cross over into the Continuum and Amatsu-Mikaboshi wouldn't be so nice as to team up with the chaos gods, more likely he would try to make them subservient and mere extensions of his will... after he devoured them as he has done with many other god-like entities.
Honestly, most of what you are describing sounds exactly like the Warp. Daemons have to overpower your souls in order to possess a psyker; when they do its usually because the Psyker has overstretched himself and left vulnerable to attack by Daemons. Different versions and those other "dimensions" for lack of better word really just sound like different Chaos God's patronage, including minor gods. For example, Juggernaut sounds like a mix of Khorne or Nurgle, whereas Strange is could be considered Tzeentchian in some respects. Chaos King himself sounds like what the Chaos Gods are, embodiments of a raw emotion, concept or emotion. The only thing that's different is the time, and that is easily explained, because the time difference in 40k is caused by the roiling currents of the Warp taking them to a different entry point a galaxy away much quicker and in Marvel time (close to 21st Century) the Warp is pretty calm and stable.
Of course, they aren't exactly alike, granted, but I'd wager that the original creators of GW and 40k took some sort of inspiration from Marvel in creating the Warp. Even 40k Psykers have some connection to the X-Men psychics like Jean Grey and Xavier, in that their abilities are caused by a genetic mutation.
I only really described the Continuum and the Astral Planes in general. And really I only see the Continuum being the true Warp equivalent. I think I may not have been clear about the Astral Plane and the souls fighting... so for more in depth how it works is when a human is concieved in the material world, two souls spawn in an Astral Plane, both of them potentially your soul. Those two souls have to fight against one another with one becoming triumphant and taking it's place in a flesh and blood body while the other remains in it's corresponding Astral Plane and becomes a Mummudrai. Some have found ways to gain bodies of flesh and blood such as Cassandra Nova, Professor Xavier's twin sister who was originally supposed to be his other soul but found a way to possess Xavier's twin's body - whom Xavier killed in the womb but Cassandra finds a way to come back later on.
So the astral plane is something more akin to limbo except for the could have been's and never were's. Some of the souls just go about their lives in those parallel universes, some of them seek a second chance at a flesh and blood body. Amusingly, Harry Potter's Dementors are similar to these souls as if a person of flesh and blood is unfortunate enough to somehow wind up in their presence, all their hopes and dreams are stripped away from them (usually just an unintentional side effect). So the astral planes are actual universes unto themselves with all the dimensions we experience are experienced there in, while the Warp is more akin to both a parallel universe where time has no meaning or at least is as easily traversable as our first 3 dimensions, and a mirror of emotions of the Materium. And beings in the Astral Plane can die just as easily as us, except in the Marvel Universe, when they die, that's the end, there is no afterlife for them as opposed to everything else.
I guess just as a little sidenote, souls don't go back to the Astral Plane though they can use it as a bridge of sorts to converse with the living. Bad/unworthy souls go to the Brimstone Dimension (Yep, Hell), no idea what the place good/worthy souls go is called aside from Heaven - which again is completely separate from the Astral Plane.
As for Juggernaut, the Crimson Cosmos are definitely more Tzeentchian, Juggernaut possessed the Cyttorak Ruby - an artifact of Cyttorak (a entity of more neutral alignment, he's given gifts to Dr. Strange), the ruler of the Crimson Cosmos - which gave him his immense strength but it turns out the uses of the power in the ruby are limited to one's imagination and so Juggernaut never has been able to harness the full potential of the gem because he is, in short, a meathead. Other's have been able to use the gem to fantastical extents.
And a little sidenote, Dr. Strange can draw power from all the realms, one of the benefits of being Sorcerer Supreme though he never touches the Continuum.
The Hell-lords (Mephisto, Bamphamet, Asmodeus, Lucifer, etc.) are all rulers of their own dimensions and compete with each other for human souls
Kind of strange, though, they never seem to compete for Kree or Skrull souls (and there are a lot more of those!), yet clearly Mephisto has access to souls from Zenn-La, since he offered to Silver Surfer his wife's (Shalla Bal) soul
Talys wrote: The Hell-lords (Mephisto, Bamphamet, Asmodeus, Lucifer, etc.) are all rulers of their own dimensions and compete with each other for human souls
Kind of strange, though, they never seem to compete for Kree or Skrull souls (and there are a lot more of those!), yet clearly Mephisto has access to souls from Zenn-La, since he offered to Silver Surfer his wife's (Shalla Bal) soul
They're all actually in the Brimstone Dimension. They just have carved out parts of it for themselves
edit: there's at least one exception: Dormammu with his Dark Dimension, though he only really goes for souls he thinks are worthy trophies like Dr. Strange
Psienesis wrote: So while the invading 40Kers might still need to deal with Perils and all that
“All that” being possible possession, or even being turned into a freaking portal open to the depths of the warp through which horrible legions of demons can invade realspace. That is why the Imperium hates psykers so much.
So, yeah, the archivist is turned into a grand portal, demon invasion and all that .
No Marvel character involved.
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