This is a personal issue I have always had with Drop Pods...
They can hold objectives in the new rules... They come with an inbuilt weapon... Have av12 all round... Makes mishap very difficult to occur... And Bs 4... For 35 points? No way.
They only have two 'equivalents' that I'm aware of... The tyranid spore which I don't know enough about to comment on... And the Dark Eldar Webway portal.
The Webway portal cannot hold objectives... It has no weapon, no armour... No ballistic skill... I can only take two at max in a single foc... And is essentially one use only. And on top of that I have to have an Archon to take them, which means the Archon has to go with the unit that travels and you have to pay 60 points for the Archon on top of the webway portal for 40 points.
So the only real advantage of the Webway portal over the Drop pod is that the Webway portal doesn't scatter and that the Webway portal has a 'transport capacity' of 21-ish being a unit of 20 plus the Archon and then any other IC's you stick in there.
I really don't think that those two advantages of the webway portal make it worth more than the Drop Pod. And the Dark Eldar are supposed to be a relatively low points cost army!!
The drop pod could easily be doubled in points cost for what you get. Fair enough it can't move... But it can shoot, control objectives, and has good armour all around. And even if it does scatter, the guys who get out have a 6" move to get into position anyway... It is far too cheap for what you are getting, and it's not like other armies get their equivalent? And to make things even worse, you can drop dreadnoughts as well.
If say Dark Eldar had a 35 point upgrade that gave a Talos Pain Engine deep strike, people would be calling cheese. Same if Wraithlords could deep strike... Or Cronos...
Now if that same 35 point upgrade had a gun, av12 all round, BS 4 and could hold objectives... People would be seriously peeved about it all.
I think that a drop-pod should be 60-70 points stock for what you're getting. Particularly because it is something that most army's have no equivalent in the slightest. Dark Eldar Vehicles can deep strike, and yes they have better weapons. But they have less armour, and will mishap much easier, and cannot transport a dreadnought.
Does anyone else agree with me here? Or am I being harsh on the Marine players? Or have I missed a rule out somewhere? Because from where I see it, Drop-Pods are extremely under-priced.

I don't think this rant belongs on a forum for rules interpretations. Perhaps the General Discussion or Proposed Rules board is what you're looking for.

 TWilkins wrote:
This is a personal issue I have always had with Drop Pods...
They can hold objectives in the new rules... They come with an inbuilt weapon... Have av12 all round... Makes mishap very difficult to occur... And Bs 4... For 35 points? No way.
They only have two 'equivalents' that I'm aware of... The tyranid spore which I don't know enough about to comment on... And the Dark Eldar Webway portal.
The Webway portal cannot hold objectives... It has no weapon, no armour... No ballistic skill... I can only take two at max in a single foc... And is essentially one use only. And on top of that I have to have an Archon to take them, which means the Archon has to go with the unit that travels and you have to pay 60 points for the Archon on top of the webway portal for 40 points.
So the only real advantage of the Webway portal over the Drop pod is that the Webway portal doesn't scatter and that the Webway portal has a 'transport capacity' of 21-ish being a unit of 20 plus the Archon and then any other IC's you stick in there.
I really don't think that those two advantages of the webway portal make it worth more than the Drop Pod. And the Dark Eldar are supposed to be a relatively low points cost army!!
The drop pod could easily be doubled in points cost for what you get. Fair enough it can't move... But it can shoot, control objectives, and has good armour all around. And even if it does scatter, the guys who get out have a 6" move to get into position anyway... It is far too cheap for what you are getting, and it's not like other armies get their equivalent? And to make things even worse, you can drop dreadnoughts as well.
If say Dark Eldar had a 35 point upgrade that gave a Talos Pain Engine deep strike, people would be calling cheese. Same if Wraithlords could deep strike... Or Cronos...
Now if that same 35 point upgrade had a gun, av12 all round, BS 4 and could hold objectives... People would be seriously peeved about it all.
I think that a drop-pod should be 60-70 points stock for what you're getting. Particularly because it is something that most army's have no equivalent in the slightest. Dark Eldar Vehicles can deep strike, and yes they have better weapons. But they have less armour, and will mishap much easier, and cannot transport a dreadnought.
Does anyone else agree with me here? Or am I being harsh on the Marine players? Or have I missed a rule out somewhere? Because from where I see it, Drop-Pods are extremely under-priced.

You are being harsh on the Marine players.

It has a stormbolter, which is fairly useless... 35 points is about right IMO.

Eh, I happen to somewhat agree that drop pods are amazing unit multipliers. It's not only that they're a cheap decent-armor immobilized vehicle that practically can't mishap, but that they take the problem of "how am I going to get this awesome close-range badass mofo to the enemy without getting killed first," and make that problem vanish. The better the unit, the more important the pod is. A fragioso, for example, or combat squad sternguard with combi's. They're amazing transports that totally bypass the part where the transport needs to survive to get the unit where it wants to be. They just auto-win at their job.

CSM would live to have drop pods.

 Filch wrote:
CSM would live to have drop pods.

M

Well they'd live longer or at least kill more.


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BTW, my marines would trade DP for WWPs any day. You actually debunked your post in your post

 Filch wrote:
CSM would live to have drop pods.

Well CSM have a drop pods if you play with forgeworld rules. The problem is that the dreadclaw drop pod (that is it's name) costs 100 points and is generally inferier to the SM drop pod

The WWP can also transport ANY vehicle and can be taken on more than just an Archon. It is pretty brutal on a Dark Artisan. Not everything has the same value in every dex. The cost of the WWP reflects the fact it can deliver stuff like Fragons, Wraithcannons and D-Scythes into short range which all have better damage output to points than anything Marines or even Imperials can muster. The nearest Imps can get being Grav Cents.

Drop Pods are great and very strong for their points particularly if you're playing proper 7th in all its glory. Coukd they go up in points and still be useful. Sure to maybe 40, 45 absolute tops but they are certainly not a million miles away and you could say the same for any strong choice in any codex. It's not like the Wyvern which could be 100 points and still be worth it...

Yes. They are.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Eh, I happen to somewhat agree that drop pods are amazing unit multipliers. It's not only that they're a cheap decent-armor immobilized vehicle that practically can't mishap, but that they take the problem of "how am I going to get this awesome close-range badass mofo to the enemy without getting killed first," and make that problem vanish. The better the unit, the more important the pod is. A fragioso, for example, or combat squad sternguard with combi's. They're amazing transports that totally bypass the part where the transport needs to survive to get the unit where it wants to be. They just auto-win at their job.

Yeah that's what I find annoying. It allows you to take a unit, kit it out a certain way, which then has certain drawbacks. For example a squad with meltas or something similar. And then for 35 points you remove this drawback, and on top of that get a decent armour vehicle with the ability to hold objectives and shoot.
@DeathReaper I know the storm bolter isn't great, but still better than nothing. It's also cheap enough that the missile upgrade gun is easier to take because the whole thing only comes to like 55 points. If the base was 55 points it would mean the upgrade would become more difficult to take and would require more thinking about it. And even a storm bolter can wreck the back armour of a lot of vehicles.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The WWP can also transport ANY vehicle and can be taken on more than just an Archon. It is pretty brutal on a Dark Artisan. Not everything has the same value in every dex. The cost of the WWP reflects the fact it can deliver stuff like Fragons, Wraithcannons and D-Scythes into short range which all have better damage output to points than anything Marines or even Imperials can muster. The nearest Imps can get being Grav Cents.

Okay that is fair. Eldar battle brothers allow the webway portal to become insanely good.
Here's a scenario though...
A Webway portal with 5 wraithguard with D-Scythes come on turn two and land perfectly. They would kill a unit unless they had really bad luck with wound rolls. But they wouldn't make back the 310+ points the unit cost unless they hit something pretty hefty. And then next turn they would almost always be wiped out.
On the other hand, for probably less points you could get two dreadnaughts in my deployment zone on the first turn of the game. These are units which I'll have to hit with anti tank weapons, and with three hull points each I probably wont kill them all turn 1. Then turn two another drop pod can come down, plus any I didn't kill first turn, with the storm bolters doing their stuff as well and the rest of your army that I couldn't shoot at because I had a drop-pod in the way.

Essentially the drop pods change the game, allow you to pretty much always hit your target, behind tanks, onto objectives ect.
Not only this, but you get to do it on the first turn of the game.
And for 35 points for it, if it landed on an objective I would probably need to kill it. Now I have to fire anti-tank at it. Yes I could kill it in a turn with 4 haywire scourges. But that's 120 points that was completely wasted for a turn because I had to clear a 35 point drop pod out of the way. You could do that on two-three objectives and I'd have to dedicate my anti-tank to those instead of the predators which are destroying my tanks and just taking away all of my mobility.
That is the problem I have with it. They are so cheap, yet can accomplish so much more than they are worth, and just get in the way whilst the other things in your army shoot at me. They are an annoyance on their own that then has to be dealt with, along with the fact they brought something dangerous right up into my face possibly before I've even been able to move yet, and possibly getting behind all of my cover and doing a ton of damage that there was no way I could have done anything to stop.
If they came in on turn two, then they would still be a massive issue, but at least I had a turn to actually attack the stuff that was shooting at me on the other side of the board.
Personally even two squads of wraithguard/fire dragons wouldn't accomplish this.
Fire dragons will kill one tank, then be wiped out without a chance.
Wraithguard do have a chance at surviving a turn if you don't have much plasma or an equivalent. But it would probably take 2-3 turns for a unit of D-scythes to make their points back, in which time they're probably dead and as 1/5th of my army at 1500 points they didn't accomplish much. But two dreadnaughts in pods for a simular cost would probably take a turn or two of focus fire to get rid off, plus the drop pods, plus making me ignore any other tanks you bought.
Do you see where I am coming from?

I completely agree with this,

its the ability on turn one to drop 2 or 3 units of things that can utterly win the game in a turn.

Im a dark eldar player, and one of the lads in our group uses drop pods to the exlusion of anything else, first turn he drops a flamer dread, and two units of tac marines each with a libby, and flamers. up go my transports and the guys inside, whilst the libby shrieks at other targets.

Im then having to start nearly everyhting off the table, to combat this, which in maelstrom missions, can be a killer, and rely on reserve rolls.


so 5 35 point drop pods force me to completely change my plan, and offer massive damage potential, that i cant match.

on top of that, as has been mentioned, it can then sit there holding an objective (which i find to be nonsense in any case) which forces me to shoot the thing with dark lances that cost 10 points a pop (or 15 for blasters) of which i would need probably 10 to get rid of it!!!

way undercosted. should be around 50 points i think.

*Shrug*

They're just another SM unit that bypasses core rules that every other faction has to deal with.

It's a theme people just have to get used to.

well given that they cannot move, can instead can deeps trike, and in every way are "about on par with a rhino" I can see the logic behind the cost. I suppose it's a matter of "how much do you place on deep striking" value wise. and how much do you belvie not being able to move is a problem

Lord puberis wrote:
I completely agree with this,

its the ability on turn one to drop 2 or 3 units of things that can utterly win the game in a turn.

Im a dark eldar player, and one of the lads in our group uses drop pods to the exlusion of anything else, first turn he drops a flamer dread, and two units of tac marines each with a libby, and flamers. up go my transports and the guys inside, whilst the libby shrieks at other targets.

Im then having to start nearly everyhting off the table, to combat this, which in maelstrom missions, can be a killer, and rely on reserve rolls.


so 5 35 point drop pods force me to completely change my plan, and offer massive damage potential, that i cant match.

on top of that, as has been mentioned, it can then sit there holding an objective (which i find to be nonsense in any case) which forces me to shoot the thing with dark lances that cost 10 points a pop (or 15 for blasters) of which i would need probably 10 to get rid of it!!!

way undercosted. should be around 50 points i think.

Hmm, 50 points stock would be reasonable I guess.
And I feel that pain my friend. I'm starting dark eldar again soon and they're an army I just do not want to deal with. I've not played many games against space marines, but each time it has either been a lucky draw or I've lost, and this is against Eldar. (Maybe it's because I don't spam serpents? And that is the reason Eldar have been labelled the devils of 40k)

MarsNZ wrote:
*Shrug*

They're just another SM unit that bypasses core rules that every other faction has to deal with.

It's a theme people just have to get used to.

Unfortunately yes...

Ironically these are usually the first people to complain about Tau and Eldar.

They shouldn't be able to hold objectives, and either their AV or Hull Points could be dropped by one. I don't really mind them aside for those details.

there strong enough to survive dropping from orbit, entry at thousands of miles a hour penetrating atmosphere and generating intense heat.

having a ok AV does not sound too much of a push.

The fact that they can hold objectives is not an issue with the drop pods themselves, but an issue with the current rules allowing all dedicated transports to hold objectives.

I think they are fine at what they currently are and WWP is drastically better, especially when allied with Eldar. Going back to your situation with the wraith guard, put them in a WS with a farseer and an archon with the 2+ invun. try and get fortune, put archon in front for 2++ rerollable and then watch that unit evaporate any unit, out side of a tank, which can be taken out by WS.
Then trying to get drop pods on tank's back armor, put far back, so drop pods still need to scatter and if near board edge can roll off and mishap. Or if throwing a bunch of melta in there and scatter far away and they become less useful.

Also there are no units in SM outside of veterans/sternguard, do not play much that know proper names, that can bring multiple meltaguns and in those cases they are one use only and then they have bolters.

They can hold objectives, but armor 12 open top is not that hard to kill anything str 7 or higher can kill it with 1 shot.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The fact that they can hold objectives is not an issue with the drop pods themselves, but an issue with the current rules allowing all dedicated transports to hold objectives.

In the old rules, holding objectives only happened a the end of the game. This ignores that vehicles couldn't score.
Now though, (nearly) everyone scores, and it happens every turn. So, drop 3 pods on turn 1, take the 3 objectives the enemy holds, and contest or take them off them. score points from the start, and there's little the enemy can to about it.

35 points is too little for a guaranteed objective scorer.
It was about right in older versions.

Drop pods should probably cost more like 60 points.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Yes. They are.

Indeed.

They are objectively the best unit in the entire game; a league apart from everything else.

This so evidently true that I'm not sure a discussion even needs to take place. Everyone just accepts Drop Pods are horrifically under priced so there's no argument about it. It's like the one thing the internet can agree on.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The fact that they can hold objectives is not an issue with the drop pods themselves, but an issue with the current rules allowing all dedicated transports to hold objectives.

In the old rules, holding objectives only happened a the end of the game. This ignores that vehicles couldn't score.
Now though, (nearly) everyone scores, and it happens every turn. So, drop 3 pods on turn 1, take the 3 objectives the enemy holds, and contest or take them off them. score points from the start, and there's little the enemy can to about it.

35 points is too little for a guaranteed objective scorer.
It was about right in older versions.

You score every turn if you are playing maelstrom and in that case only if you drew/ rolled to hold that objective. Also if your opponent goes first and is holding the objective you both need they get the points and if the unit has objsec you have to kill the entire unit to claim the objective.

I can understand the complaints about drop pods, in particular their ability to hold an objective. A dedicated transport at least has a crew, unlike a drop pod.

The reason I can't really agree with a points cost increase (outside of maybe 45) is that they seem about the same value as rhinos, and rhinos are 35. The only way that a drop pod outperforms a rhino is the dreadnought delivery, hence my approval of a small increase.

A rhino can hold an objective, a rhino can deliver units to the other side of the board by turn 2, units can fire from inside a rhino and a librarian can shriek from the protection of a rhino. It's a drop of 1 point in armor, but dark eldar are still going to have to devote anti-armor to bringing it down. I tend to prefer rhinos honestly (against everyone but tau).

I find them meh. Drop pods necessarily peacemeal your enemy's army for you, unless they pay for extra pods.

The only drop lists I find really scary are SW followed by salamanders. Otherwise, I just find to be delivery systems for inefficient alpha strikes.

I would agree if the units drop pods were transporting weren't overpriced.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would agree if the units drop pods were transporting weren't overpriced.

This too.

I think the only thing that needs to be done to drop pods is to take away their ability to hold an objective. Give them a rule like "Unmanned - This Unit may not hold objectives". Done. Their price is fine because they are immobile.

In response to the post stating that they only earn points in maelstrom if the cards are drawn. this is true, but they also have value in at least one other mission.
the one you get a card for every objective you hold.
again, as a dark eldar player, i had null deployed, mostly (i had a DA on the board), we drew this mission, and he proceeded to drop his two pods onto two objectives, moved his two razor backs up onto another two and had an assasin hiding on a fifth.
Game over, i couldnt get enough firepower onto the pod, and the unit in the pod to kill them, giving him massive amounts of cards and therefore opportunities for points every turn.

Had i started everything on the board, i could have kissed goodbye to the majority of my troops, and probably a fair number of their transports, hence losing the game.
they dont have to score in order for it to be ridiculous that they can hold objectives. its frankly ridiculous that they can in the first place.

Again, that's an issue with the current scoring rules allowing everything to be a scoring unit, and not the drop pods themselves. I don't see anyone arguing in favor of raising the points on Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau transports that can quickly hop onto an objective turn 1 and just jink and ignore half of all incoming hits.

So the argument is that Drop Pods are to harsh on Dark Elder so their points should be increased, is that it?

well I think mindshackle scarabs are incredibly unfair and far to effective against my close combat heavies, how in the world should Logan, Draigo, and Lysander lose to some bargain basement Lord with mss. Should be a minimum 60pts upgrade.

Dont really like Wave Serpents either definitely need point increases.

The odds of a tactical marine with a melta gun making it across the table and getting off a meaningful shot is slim, yet it is a 10 point upgrade on an already 15 point marine.

The cost of the drop pod is mitigating by the higher costs found elsewhere in the codex.

As far as dreadnaught delivery, the dreadnaught is damn near dead how many marine players even use foot slogging dreadnaughts anymore.

On top of all this with careful deployments you can mitigate the arrival of drop pods by offering them lesser targets.

Good bubblewrapping and usage of terrain can completely shut down a melta drop strategy and neuter a plasma drop. I know, because I have a lot of practice against SW. Of course, then they kill you in HTH when you assault them, so that's why they are the primary drop list I fear.

I am a big fan of Imperial Fist drop pods with close range bolter drill, so many twin linked rapid fire bolters. Wish they had access to heavy flamers.

Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

I run them with grav gun/heavy bolter or melta/ multi melta find it to be a great jack of all trade unit coming out of a pod.

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

You will notice I said a rapid firing bolter is almost as good. Yes they can't assault after but they still get 2 shots and with Fists it's still twin linked.

16 twin linked str 4 shots is a threat to any normal infantry.

valace2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

You will notice I said a rapid firing bolter is almost as good. Yes they can't assault after but they still get 2 shots and with Fists it's still twin linked.

16 twin linked str 4 shots is a threat to any normal infantry.

You're right, especially when cover is easily obtained and we have the privilege of AP5. Wrong thread, but this was discussed elsewhere as to why Bolters are pretty bad weapons.

valace2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

You will notice I said a rapid firing bolter is almost as good. Yes they can't assault after but they still get 2 shots and with Fists it's still twin linked.

16 twin linked str 4 shots is a threat to any normal infantry.

No, it really isn't. And you are paying a lot of points to accomplish nothing. You are also making the HUGE assumption there exists targetable "normal" infantry in your opponent's list.


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valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

I run them with grav gun/heavy bolter or melta/ multi melta find it to be a great jack of all trade unit coming out of a pod.

Too bad this game punishes jack of all trades units very harshly.

In response to the point about mind shackle scarabs, you are using an example from a codex that is now seriously out of date and will probably be changed in the coming codex.
As for wave serpents. They are widely lauded as heavily op and a lot of arguments are made that they are the single most poorly costed unit in the game.
And it's not just dark eldar is it? Orks struggle against them with their open topped transports.

It's just that my experience is as a dark eldar player, and as this is a forum, my opinion and experience is valid.

You need to take advantage of the fact that the player using drop pods is committing their forces early an often irrevocably. Initial army set up is key against drop forces, as you can often force pods into very sub-optimal places.

And there's always the good news that most marine shooting is overpriced and therefore ineffective in the scheme of things.

Orks have no excuse not to effectively bubblewrap. I do it with BA, Orks can do it four times better.

Drop Pods are so unbelievably broken and OP that the Tournament scene is awash with nothing but DP armies. I mean all the big tournaments are always won by DP armies. Oh wait no they are not.

DPs are fine. They are a good choice and you can make a strong DP army. But marines are massive generalists which hurts them in so many ways lets let them have this one decent tactic shall we? I mean with out DPs dreads are completely pointless (and only really effective if spammed with them, no competent player is remotely worried by 2 Dreads in drop pods). Even then if you're against Tau those DPs just become coffins (as the DP will largely remain unharmed as the contents are wiped on interceptor).

Seriously I can't even believe this is a discussion.

I think there are too many inbred metas where players aren't exposed with how to deal with them. I had to learn in 5th because SW players relentlessly dropped the damn things all over the place.

I find the concept that a 3 year old codex is seriously out of date as laughable considering the gap in between their latest codex and the one before it, and more so with the gap in Tau codices.

Yes I noticed a thread called bolters are crap or some such thing but didn't bother to read it. Yes bolters are not the God like weapons you find in the fluff, in case you haven't noticed the typical game doesn't include 2000 orks to 100 marines either. In terms of game play you can't have basic marines killing avatars and greater daemons.

I stand by my statement that Imperial Fists with bolters coming out of drops pods aren't that bad. The shame of it is the only way people want to play them is with sternguard loaded down with melta and that's a shame.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would agree if the units drop pods were transporting weren't overpriced.

This too.

No, just this. The Drop pod is actually quite a hilariously powerful transport if it was available basically everything BUT power armor units.
The fact that the drop pod is so cheap is really only due to the fact that it would cause an already over costed unit to become grossly over costed. Anyone who nerd rage and quake in fear against a list with horrible dreads, horrible tactical marines, 300+ points melta units, costly command squads, all of which is incapable of alpha striking against any Daemons, formation Tyranids, WS/knight list, tau list or any other list with proper bubble wrap, really need to reevaluate their list and skills as a plastic toy general.

Yah but when you put IG special weapon squads or vets in them you see how broken they are...Still though they make everything you put in them shine.

valace2 wrote:
I find the concept that a 3 year old codex is seriously out of date as laughable considering the gap in between their latest codex and the one before it, and more so with the gap in Tau codices.

Yes I noticed a thread called bolters are crap or some such thing but didn't bother to read it. Yes bolters are not the God like weapons you find in the fluff, in case you haven't noticed the typical game doesn't include 2000 orks to 100 marines either. In terms of game play you can't have basic marines killing avatars and greater daemons.

I stand by my statement that Imperial Fists with bolters coming out of drops pods aren't that bad. The shame of it is the only way people want to play them is with sternguard loaded down with melta and that's a shame.

Your loss, then. Bolters are bad. I've shown other marine generals this over and over and over. Now, the grav toys the standard marines get are lethal as hell. And why my BA are marines -1 in their now codex.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Yah but when you put IG special weapon squads or vets in them you see how broken they are...Still though they make everything you put in them shine.

Not exactly, as per my above statement. What they do is force the general to commit to an alpha strike. If the alpha doesn't do enough damage, there is no fall back position.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I don't see anyone arguing in favor of raising the points on Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau transports that can quickly hop onto an objective turn 1 and just jink and ignore half of all incoming hits.

You don't? Is this your first day on the internet? There's seven threads about that on the first page of this forum.

Also, those of you asserting Tactical Marines being overpriced are laughable, but we already have that thread too.

If drop pods all arrived T1 they would be MASSIVELY underpriced. But as it is, half your drop pods are in reserve, which if going drop pod heavy, allows the marine opponent to focus on one part of the marine army at once. That is huge.
This is why many marine players pay a tax to take extra drop pod units they wouldn't take otherwise, or even empty pods for TFCs and devs.
It definitely balances out tactically.
Also marine players need a way to get that 32pt combi-sternguard model to the opponents unit. As if he is shot down it is a huge points cost. Whereas a AM vet with melta is 16pts (half the cost), has more than 1 shot and has a squad with usually 7 6pt vets who can take the wounds for him (compared to the 22pt sternguard taking a wound). Due to their high cost SM need a cheap way to be delivered.
Also remember, once they are down, they are slow ass infantry units.
Lastly, if taking a full pod army, you suffer from only having half your army as mentioned above. Whilst if you take less than 5 pods, you risk stranding your pod squads unsupported. At first glance they look amazing, but when you really consider the tactical situation behind them, you will see glaring drawbacks.

The lists I fear the most usually start with max firepower on the board and just don't let up the entire game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I don't see anyone arguing in favor of raising the points on Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau transports that can quickly hop onto an objective turn 1 and just jink and ignore half of all incoming hits.

You don't? Is this your first day on the internet? There's seven threads about that on the first page of this forum.

It would seem that, in your rush to edit my post to make a pointlessly snarky comment, you completely missed the point I was making. I'll give you a hint: it's in the part you cut out.

Drop Pods are admittedly very cheap for what they do.

Risk free (barring board edge) deep striking that very often increases scatter accuracy is probably worth 35pts at *least* in and of itself for most units, to say nothing of being able to come on turn 1 with some of them.

Getting an AV12 tower that can hold objectives and blocking movement on top of that makes the bargain even more hilarious.

They could certainly do with bit of a price hike.

That said, unfortunately there's a number of other things that need such attention before drop pods do.

DP are under cost without a doubt. It being the same cost as a rhino? really? its way better than a rhino. It cant move? oh well that doesnt matter when you can place it wherever you want without worrying about a mishap. Tau would be the only army that can honestly counter a DP list without worry.

I counter them all the time.

Martel732 wrote:
I counter them all the time.

How would you counter them if they have the first turn and 2 orbital bombardments coming in turn 1? Put everything in reserve?

Yep, as do the majority of experienced guard players, easily.

Every army can counter a DP list, yes Tau do it best but Interceptor is not the only way to counter DPs. A DP is not better than a Rhino. It is just different. A DP does its work in 1 turn and then sits there not achieving much unless it is on a relevant objective. The Rhino can manoeuvre every turn ferry multiple units and take more advantage of cover. It can also be used to block units to help sniping or protect other units from return fire.

Drop Pods are good and are good for their points. But there is a reason they are rarely seen on top tier tables and it is not because top tier players are clueless and missing out on this must have unit...

Divide and conquer. The maxim of every great General who has ever lived. Love how nobody even slightly picked up on the point I just made about pod players having to divide their army or go small number pods and thus risk stranding part of their army, aka... dividing their army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I counter them all the time.

How would you counter them if they have the first turn and 2 orbital bombardments coming in turn 1? Put everything in reserve?

I just pretend I'm playing against Tau for a turn. And then, unlike against Tau, things get better after I get to go.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Divide and conquer. The maxim of every great General who has ever lived. Love how nobody even slightly picked up on the point I just made about pod players having to divide their army or go small number pods and thus risk stranding part of their army, aka... dividing their army.

GW has made reserves far less risky and far more reliable over the editions. The issue you're talking about isn't quite as critical as you're making it out to be barring some truly terrible rolls. You can pick and choose what comes in turn 1, a smart SM player will design their army around this, having their "kill" units come in early, and consolidation forces that nab objectives or clean up survivors come in later, and if they take a couple turns to come in, that's fine, often they may not even have anything to do until turn 3.

Quite often you'll have a drop pod situation like this, 2 Sternguard units with combi-weapons, and a tac squad in a pod, the sternguard units will come in turn 1, combat squad, put the hurt on 4 units, and the tac squad will come in later, usually turn 2, and help consolidate the flank that the Sternguard shot to pieces. Not much "divide and conquer" there unless the Sternguard completely putzed their alpha strike.

I agree, but then I also think rhinos are too cheap but drop pods are much better than rhinos for a few editions now.

a drop pod will almost guarantee you get to place your unit where you want to, without the unit getting its ride blown up before it gets placed.

A rhino will not.

you can do the above with half of your drop pods turn 1, normally other armies cannot bring in reserves until turn 2+, you dont even need to roll.

should cost more points.

as for the comment they are rarely seen on top tables, thats pretty incorrect.

The top 8 of most tournaments includes at least 1 player with drop pods.

Example in point, current post on LVO practice tournament top player = drop pod player.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Divide and conquer. The maxim of every great General who has ever lived. Love how nobody even slightly picked up on the point I just made about pod players having to divide their army or go small number pods and thus risk stranding part of their army, aka... dividing their army.

GW has made reserves far less risky and far more reliable over the editions. The issue you're talking about isn't quite as critical as you're making it out to be barring some truly terrible rolls. You can pick and choose what comes in turn 1, a smart SM player will design their army around this, having their "kill" units come in early, and consolidation forces that nab objectives or clean up survivors come in later, and if they take a couple turns to come in, that's fine, often they may not even have anything to do until turn 3.

Quite often you'll have a drop pod situation like this, 2 Sternguard units with combi-weapons, and a tac squad in a pod, the sternguard units will come in turn 1, combat squad, put the hurt on 4 units, and the tac squad will come in later, usually turn 2, and help consolidate the flank that the Sternguard shot to pieces. Not much "divide and conquer" there unless the Sternguard completely putzed their alpha strike.

I've weathered so many Sternguard drops. Their firepower is a spit in the wind compared to Tau and Eldar. And then my assaulty BA get to suplex them all the next turn. I like the crunchy sound of 30+ pt meqs. The drop scheme is even worse now that I'm meching up more and more. Drop in and take out that Rhino hull! You sure showed me!

Not just Dark Eldar... Eldar, Tau, plenty of armies have no way to counter a drop pod spam. They are the only army can dominate the whole board on the first turn with Drop pods. Anyone else has to wait until turn two, other than turbo boosting Eldar Jetbikes, who then can't shoot, whereas a drop pod and its crew can.
And yeah a tactical marine might take ages to get across the board... The same as any other unit in the game who doesn't have a transport.
And it's a bit off-topic, but with a necron lord with mindshackle scarabs, don't go into combat with it, deal with it in other ways.
And yeah Wave Serpents get all the hate, and maybe the shield should be weakened a bit, but they only become insanely broken when some tfg takes as many of them as he can fit into a list. One or two isn't game breaking, and they are only av12 on the front and av10 on the back. I only use one, and have never had a single complaint about it.
On the other hand, for the price of 2 wave serpents, you could afford 6 drop pods. three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking.
And careful deployments barely mean anything, not when a Drop pod can go wherever it wants to, without a mishap chance, plus the 6-inch deployment move.

If you're considering a squad of Sternguard popping down 10 meltagun or up to 20 plasma shots in a turn, typically at optimal ranges and often from a choice of angles, "spit in the wind", I'm not going to buy that.

Compared to tri- or tetra- Riptide or 6+ WS? I'll take the one shot- and then dead STernguards every day of the week. I beat those lists a lot with the terrible 5th ed BA codex. The proof is in the pudding. I don't fear your overcosted Sternguard combi weapons. I fear sustained withering firepower I can't get off the table.

Martel732 wrote:
Compared to tri- or tetra- Riptide or 6+ WS? I'll take the one shot- and then dead STernguards every day of the week. I beat those lists a lot with the terrible 5th ed BA codex. The proof is in the pudding. I don't fear your overcosted Sternguard combi weapons.

Triptide's aren't dumping that kind of firepower by themselves in the enemy's backfield on turn 1.

In fact, the big thing with Riptides isn't even necessarily their firepower, it's that they are just too damn hard to kill.

Wave Serpents likewise, while overpowered, aren't going to put up to 10 meltaguns at two different targets (possibly at side or rear arcs) and likely at optimal melta range, on turn 1. They're another issue of its not simply firepower, but absurd survivability as well.

I fear sustained withering firepower I can't get off the table.

Which is a very different argument than calling such firepower "spit in the wind". Having seen a couple of Sternguard squads clear flanks of armor in a single round of shooting more than once, they're very potent units, and if dismissing that capability, you're going to lose games. It's *very* powerful. Yes it's only a one-turn thing, but I've seen that win games by itself on more than one occasion, and against experienced, capable players as well.

Is it the single most overpowered thing in the game? No, but to just dismiss it because it's not so, despite how capable it might otherwise be, is absurd.

I dismiss it because I've seen it so many times, and my set up reactions to it are automatic now. So many games against Sternguard drops and SW drop. SW drops are much worse because you just can't wipe them up with counter-assaults.

No one ever gets side or rear armor that I don't give them. They get to shoot what I want them to shoot, and nothing else. Also, the melta drop has been kicked a bit with the new vehicle table. There is no way I'd pay 300+ to drop 10 melta shots. No way. It's not going to pay off, except in extreme circumstances.

Marine players keep thinking that throwing away 30+ meqs is a grand strategy. Fine by me. I'll keep chewing them up. I'll be watching out for the Tiggystar; that can melt my face. Over. And over. And over. Until I manage to neutralize it.


" in the enemy's backfield"

Who lets drop pods in their backfield on turn 1? No one I play.

" three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking. "

If only that were true. In practice, it's a good way to get a lot of marines killed really quickly.

TWilkins wrote: three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking. 

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that. He had me laughing at Tau not having an answer to DPs but this had me in stitches.

The last game of 40k I played my opponent had 3 DPs arrive and he had the Stormraven formation from WD that allowed him to assault the turn he arrived (i.e. turn 1 assault). I tabled him by simply castling in a corner and denying his alphastrike and real targets (I was using a Nid army I put together out of 2 Deathstorms so had Genestealers and warriors in it!)

3 DPs is not game breaking unless you're talking about a 600 point game. At 1850 any DP list I write would have 13-15 DPs in it with 7-8 arriving turn 1. Even that is not game breaking. Tough sure but not game breaking in any way.

I personally like one drop fragnought. Opponents won't set up against it, and so it actually gets to do its job. And it soaks anti-tank fire most of the time.

Yeah, DP lists are way more powerful than Thunderwolves, Waveserpents, Riptides, Imperial Knights, summoning Chaos, AM blobs, coven, Gun line Eldar or Tau, Farsight bomb, beast packs, WS bikes, Cron air and consistently beat all these lists.

Or they don't and you guys need to figure out how to handle a list type that more or less runs the same way it always has. Get out of your cloistered meta, or if you don't, at least be savy enough to understand the actual game balance as it compares to your sheltered club. Come on. Really? What's next, wyches and Rough Riders are OP?

Silly thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darkness Eternal. I apologize that Dakka can't read sarcasm. Do you play TitanFall. There's a player with your tag that I run into all the time.

 FlingitNow wrote:

3 DPs is not game breaking unless you're talking about a 600 point game. At 1850 any DP list I write would have 13-15 DPs in it with 7-8 arriving turn 1. Even that is not game breaking. Tough sure but not game breaking in any way.

I'm talking about it from my own experience with the armies that I use.
With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them.
With the Dark Eldar army I am starting, with the unit's I am currently looking at getting, I wouldn't be able to deal with this either.

I'll try with an analogy...
35 points for an av12 open topped fortification that can hold objectives and has a storm bolter... From my point of view that is under priced on its own. I'd say more like 40-50 points.
Then allow it to deep strike and only mishap if it goes off of the table, which is barely ever going to happen. And then make it a dedicated transport... It's a constant build up of rules that are making it better, but it's not getting any more expensive.

I'm not saying that it's an op transport that should have a complete rules-rewrite, I'm saying it should cost about 60 odd points so that when a Marine player looks in his codex and says 'My army are pretty slow' it's not so easy to go 'Oh I'll ignore that weakness and put them in a drop pod for 35 points'
If a drop pod was about 60 points, then a player would have to make compromises and using a drop-pod would have benefits and drawbacks. "If I use a drop pod, I get into the enemy deployment zone much quicker, but I then can't afford as many upgrades."
That way it actually becomes a tactical decision like every other army have to make when they are choosing units (And I'm ignoring spam lists when I say this. A spam list is just a way of saying 'I want to win without needing luck or skill' I don't use spam lists and I don't play against them if I can help it.)

For example with Eldar or Dark eldar, every upgrade and unit you take has strengths and flaws. If you take a unit of scourges with haywire blasters, you'll destroy vehicles, but you'll do nothing against infantry. And having lots of splinter cannons is great, but if my opponent hides in tanks then you can't do a thing with them.
And 5 fire dragons will destroy vehicles and teq and meq, but with a 4+ save that's a fragile unit and you need to get them across the board safely to get within 12" range; which is tough to do with a unit that most people will look at once and say 'oh I'll need to bring that down pretty quickly'. On top of that, you're then spending more points to get them across the board safely, whether it's a serpent or a falcon or a distraction mob or whatever.
Marines seems to be more like: "I'll buy some meltas. They've got a good save. Oh they're slow. It doesn't matter I'll spend 35 points and drop them behind a fire prism/Hammerhead/ravenger/monolith/land raider first turn and they'll probably make their points back."
Seems like Marines have a free pass...

"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

 FlingitNow wrote:

TWilkins wrote: three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking. 

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that. He had me laughing at Tau not having an answer to DPs but this had me in stitches.

The last game of 40k I played my opponent had 3 DPs arrive and he had the Stormraven formation from WD that allowed him to assault the turn he arrived (i.e. turn 1 assault). I tabled him by simply castling in a corner and denying his alphastrike and real targets (I was using a Nid army I put together out of 2 Deathstorms so had Genestealers and warriors in it!)

3 DPs is not game breaking unless you're talking about a 600 point game. At 1850 any DP list I write would have 13-15 DPs in it with 7-8 arriving turn 1. Even that is not game breaking. Tough sure but not game breaking in any way.

We have tried this exact setup, and holing up in a corner is a terrible idea. The BA player can grab all of the objectives, and then you blow with drop pods, and then you blow two turns just running around like an idiot trying to get rid of them... And your army is super far away from half the objectives. If you have a heavy LOS blocking map, you can't even shoot at some if the objective-claiming drop pods until T3. With the stormravens being so physically large (and a flyer), the BA player has an advantage just denying objectives if the Tyranid player starts off far from them.

Secondly, you guarantee that the BA player is going to crush with blasts, templates, grenades. Remember those stormravens are nasty against ground units. And finally, you have the problem that if you fail leadership rolls and your opponent is clever in assault, you can actually lose whole units (nowhere to flee).

I think the best answer to Angel's Fury is Flyrants. No matter what, you have to deal with 3 flyers that are quite damaging, and all the carnifexes in the world won't do jack.

Also, we have found that the higher the point level of the game, the greater the advantage of Angel's Fury and drop pods. The T1 alpha charge is especially good if you have 2500, 3000, or 3500 points to work with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

I guess that depends on what "my Eldar" are Could be 1500 points of Guardians!

no drop pods are costed right for what they do, av 12 isnt that hard to crack, compared to simliar pts levels, the eldar skimmers with TL lance weapons from forge world, artillary carriges from FW, and so on and so forth are much better for the pts, as are many many units.

drop pods are the iconic space marine thing, they are what is supposed to be good about SM's.

iconic things for armies are cheaper for those armies, necrons dont pay much if anything for their RP rolls, eldar underpay for all their skimmers, tau underpay for lots of shooty stuff, orks underpay for their choppy troops, guard underpay for their shooty stuff, and so on and so forth.

every army should have a couple things it does well/pays less for while having to pay more for other things.

as it is, drop pods are off set by expensive but still fragile troops, and they are very much a one shot pony


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to hear an ELDAR player complain about OP dedicated transports is laughable....

excuse me while I have a hearty laugh at the OP eldar player complaining about someone elses dedicated transport.

AHARHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will... eldar get super powerfull and cheap DT's, shootyness, CC, psychic powers... Im missing the thing they are supposed the be bad at....

Martel732 wrote:
"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

So is claiming Tau are ridiculously overpowered and should get nerfed when your only experience in fighting them is on a table which is basically devoid of terrain.

No offence but with how your boards are set up, any of your anecdotes about how well units perform is pretty much moot as most other people understand that terrain of various shapes and sizes is what allows this to be a tactical game.

TWilkins basically you've said "I can't deal with DPs so they need to near double in points". You also talk about the streamlined nature of Eldar units as if it were a weakness. In a strategy game where you have omniscience of the field and mobility freedom specialist units are universally better than generalists.

You claim an AV12 building with open topped and a storm bolter would be 45-50 points. But that is firstly an incorrect analogy as you can stay safe in a building (you can't in a DP) where as a bunker an AV14 all round building costs 55 points. So an open topped build you could stay in with AV12 would be in the region of 25-30 a storm bolter is worth about 5 so 30-35 sounds about right. You give up the ability to stay safe in your building (the main reason to take them) to gain safe DS ability that's about a fairtrade off.

Lets look at other similar units. The Nid one is 75 points. However it can move (a huge benefit compare points of a Bastion to a Landraider) has 6 wounds compared to 3 HPs, fights back in combat and has 15 S5 shots compared to 2 S4 ones. All in all they compare point for point quite well.

Over all yes DPs are good. No they are not hugely undercosted. No marines are not a great army and no they don't get it all their own way. They have some decent tanks (nothing as good as a Wave Serpent) some good flyers (nothing as good as a Nightscythe) but what they do have that is great are Beat stick bike characters, a strong bike army, Centurions and Drop Pods. That's about all you see at a competitive level, given that marines (in one form or another) are about half the field do we really need to hamper their iconic build? Really?

 easysauce wrote:

serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will...

Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents. They are both excellent things which are quite a problem for every opponent.

They do different things, but they are both at the same scale of "take a bunch of these to win" levels.

Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying.

They are simply the best transport (as in thing you put other guys into to get them somewhere they will be more useful) in the game and they cost less than 2-3 men worth of points, while Wave Serpents are gunships that happen to transport guys (but let's be honest, those guys are just a tax to buy a gunship).

We have tried this exact setup, and holing up in a corner is a terrible idea. The BA player can grab all of the objectives, and then you blow with drop pods, and then you blow two turns just running around like an idiot trying to get rid of them... And your army is super far away from half the objectives. If you have a heavy LOS blocking map, you can't even shoot at some if the objective-claiming drop pods until T3. With the stormravens being so physically large (and a flyer), the BA player has an advantage just denying objectives if the Tyranid player starts off far from them. 

Secondly, you guarantee that the BA player is going to crush with blasts, templates, grenades. Remember those stormravens are nasty against ground units. And finally, you have the problem that if you fail leadership rolls and your opponent is clever in assault, you can actually lose whole units (nowhere to flee). 

I think the best answer to Angel's Fury is Flyrants. No matter what, you have to deal with 3 flyers that are quite damaging, and all the carnifexes in the world won't do jack. 

Also, we have found that the higher the point level of the game, the greater the advantage of Angel's Fury and drop pods. The T1 alpha charge is especially good if you have 2500, 3000, or 3500 points to work with. 

Well it wasn't a terrible idea as I tabled my opponent with a Nid list that had 2 units of Warriors and 2 Units of Genestealers in it (illustrating it is a more fun than competitive list). He's invested more than half his army in the Formation making it reliant on that Alphastrike. Denying him that won me the game. Castling isn't always the best call against all DP armies or even all alphastriking armies but it and bubble wrap are good tools to use in the right situation.

The point is countering 3 or 4 DPs is pretty easy and possible with any codex even the much lamented Nid dex. That DPs are not OP and game breaking. The can be part of VERY effective lists and are a good tool to help an army that is hamstrung by its generalist nature. Yes you can build a top tier list with DPs however you can also build many SM top tier lists without them. They are not an auto include and do come with counters and down sides.

I have been saying this for years, drop pods are too cheap and it changes the game in some unfair ways.

Movement, and the ability to get up the board, is a big deal, moreso than ever since 6th edition. Being able to drop your toughest units in an opponent's backfield is a big deal.

I won't usually walk away from a game, but there was a Space Wolves player I would never fight again because he did drops with Long Fangs and Razorback spam. There was always an alpha strike going on and it just became the same game over and over.

 Lobukia wrote:
Yeah, DP lists are way more powerful than Thunderwolves, Waveserpents, Riptides, Imperial Knights, summoning Chaos, AM blobs, coven, Gun line Eldar or Tau, Farsight bomb, beast packs, WS bikes, Cron air and consistently beat all these lists.

Or they don't and you guys need to figure out how to handle a list type that more or less runs the same way it always has. Get out of your cloistered meta, or if you don't, at least be savy enough to understand the actual game balance as it compares to your sheltered club. Come on. Really? What's next, wyches and Rough Riders are OP?

Silly thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darkness Eternal. I apologize that Dakka can't read sarcasm. Do you play TitanFall. There's a player with your tag that I run into all the time.

You're missing my point completely. I'm not saying that drop pod lists are the most powerful things ever created. I'm saying that a single drop pod is worth a lot more than it costs.
And there's no need to be so condescending regarding Meta, believe me I wish I could play against more people. But I can't. So I make do.
And I understand game balance very well. And I understand that having an instant deep strike turn one with almost no chance of mishap and no need to roll for reserves is unbalanced. It ignores the reserves rule, the risks of deep striking, the need to roll for reserves and all for a measly 35 points.

Martel732 wrote:
"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

Well at 1500 points with my usual list I'd probably have a guardian bright lance, wraithlord bright lance, possibly war walker lances and possibly storm guardian fusion guns. That's not reliable to clear off 3 av12 with probably 2-3 hull points each in one turn. Especially considering there is also predators/rhinos ect on the other side of the board shooting at me.

Talys wrote:


I guess that depends on what "my Eldar" are Could be 1500 points of Guardians!

Indeed

 easysauce wrote:
no drop pods are costed right for what they do, av 12 isnt that hard to crack, compared to simliar pts levels, the eldar skimmers with TL lance weapons from forge world, artillary carriges from FW, and so on and so forth are much better for the pts, as are many many units.

drop pods are the iconic space marine thing, they are what is supposed to be good about SM's.

iconic things for armies are cheaper for those armies, necrons dont pay much if anything for their RP rolls, eldar underpay for all their skimmers, tau underpay for lots of shooty stuff, orks underpay for their choppy troops, guard underpay for their shooty stuff, and so on and so forth.

every army should have a couple things it does well/pays less for while having to pay more for other things.

as it is, drop pods are off set by expensive but still fragile troops, and they are very much a one shot pony


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to hear an ELDAR player complain about OP dedicated transports is laughable....

excuse me while I have a hearty laugh at the OP eldar player complaining about someone elses dedicated transport.

AHARHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will... eldar get super powerfull and cheap DT's, shootyness, CC, psychic powers... Im missing the thing they are supposed the be bad at....

First, I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge that most of forge worlds point costs are completely ridiculous.
And I believe the 'iconic' space marine thing is their ability to do pretty much anything. They only thing I can think of that they cannot bring to the table is a Monstrous creature. Good psykers, T4 sv3+. units with 3+ invulnerable saves, plenty of high strength weapons... ect.

And yes I play Eldar. I've played them for 8 years straight and I own one wave serpent, which to be completely honest has never done anything much for me other than getting a unit from one place to another.
Yes people all say the wave serpent is over powered. But that doesn't change my point that a drop pod is ridiculously cheap. Lets switch the tables around. You can have my wave serpents, and I'll take two drop pods. I bet whatever I did with them would be considered overpowered.
And to answer your question... Eldar are supposed to be an unforgiving army. If you make mistakes you pay for it. Most things have 4+ saves, we rely on cover and our close combat is hardly 'super powerful'. I would happily and gladly ditch my serpent shield and replace it with some form of assault vehicle that lets banshees get a chance again. Maybe something like this will pop up with all the harlequin rumours that are flying around?

I wish people would stop looking at TFG with his wave serpent spam and just paint every Eldar player with the same brush.

 FlingitNow wrote:
TWilkins basically you've said "I can't deal with DPs so they need to near double in points". You also talk about the streamlined nature of Eldar units as if it were a weakness. In a strategy game where you have omniscience of the field and mobility freedom specialist units are universally better than generalists.

You claim an AV12 building with open topped and a storm bolter would be 45-50 points. But that is firstly an incorrect analogy as you can stay safe in a building (you can't in a DP) where as a bunker an AV14 all round building costs 55 points. So an open topped build you could stay in with AV12 would be in the region of 25-30 a storm bolter is worth about 5 so 30-35 sounds about right. You give up the ability to stay safe in your building (the main reason to take them) to gain safe DS ability that's about a fairtrade off.

Lets look at other similar units. The Nid one is 75 points. However it can move (a huge benefit compare points of a Bastion to a Landraider) has 6 wounds compared to 3 HPs, fights back in combat and has 15 S5 shots compared to 2 S4 ones. All in all they compare point for point quite well.

Over all yes DPs are good. No they are not hugely undercosted. No marines are not a great army and no they don't get it all their own way. They have some decent tanks (nothing as good as a Wave Serpent) some good flyers (nothing as good as a Nightscythe) but what they do have that is great are Beat stick bike characters, a strong bike army, Centurions and Drop Pods. That's about all you see at a competitive level, given that marines (in one form or another) are about half the field do we really need to hamper their iconic build? Really?

That's not what I have been trying to get at. Most armies will struggle when they get hit by three drop pods turn one. And the streamline nature is both a strength and a weakness. If an Eldar army looses its anti-tank then usually other things will struggle to fill that role, but with space marines they can hit things with different purpose.

And I will apologise, I thought the av14 bastion was 75 points.

It's not about hampering their iconic build, it's about making them less game-changing. If they had to roll for their drop pods then i'd be less annoyed. Or if they came in like any other reserves. Or if they could scatter. But they don't do any of that. It forces you to play the game 'their way'.

If I field say two wave serpents. It probably wont change your play style at all. Maybe you'll target them first because everyone apparently shudders at the thought of one.
If you field six drop pods, you will completely change the way I play. I'll be on the defensive from the start and turn one, two and most likely three, i'll be trying to clear my own board edge rather than attacking yours.

And also, fair point about the tyranid spore. But seeing as it has a toughness value it can be insta-killed and tarpitted. And plus on a whole tyranids are cheaper than space marines anyway.

 DarknessEternal wrote:


Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying.

Very true.

"Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents."

Wow.

droppods are part of what makes Marines Marines. Marines are all about dropping in and hitting a weak spot with high precision firepower. thats basicly one of the over arching THEMES of the Marine. it'd be like complaining that Guards are OP cause they can blob

"Well at 1500 points with my usual list I'd probably have a guardian bright lance, wraithlord bright lance, possibly war walker lances and possibly storm guardian fusion guns. That's not reliable to clear off 3 av12 with probably 2-3 hull points each in one turn. Especially considering there is also predators/rhinos ect on the other side of the board shooting at me. "

You don't have to kill them immediately. The drop pods can't hurt you. Kill all the marines that come out of them and then mop up the pods when you are moping up his tac squads. You know, the phase of the game after you have eliminated all marine models that can hurt you.

BrianDavion wrote:
droppods are part of what makes Marines Marines. Marines are all about dropping in and hitting a weak spot with high precision firepower. thats basicly one of the over arching THEMES of the Marine. it'd be like complaining that Guards are OP cause they can blob

I'd agree with you... If they didn't also have strong vehicles, foot units, artillery, bikes, terminators...
They have so many different ways they can play a game. Drop pods are just one of the alternatives.

Marines have weak vehicles and terminators are terrible. Yes, the TFC is nice, and bikers are very nice, but there is a lot more bad units in the marine codex than good ones. That's why you see the good ones over and over.

So what you mean is they have a few ways to win the game and a ton of ways to lose.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly. The WS is perhaps the best model in the game. It's certainly in the running. I've seen drop pods back fire way too many times to even consider them more than "good".

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly. The WS is perhaps the best model in the game. It's certainly in the running. I've seen drop pods back fire way too many times to even consider them more than "good".

I'm not sure that I've met anyone who plays 40k even semi-competitively who argues that Wave Serpents aren't the best DT in the game, and I'm not certain that I've met even one player who wouldn't say "Wave Serpent" if asked what the most abusable unit is in 40k.

DPs are not nearly as *flexible* units as WS. I mean, it's not even remotely close. Plus, as you say, you can frag up DPs in an epic way. OTOH, a half dozen Wave Serpents take virtually no skill to play.

Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying. 

Lol then why pray tell do most tournament winning mqrine lists not include any drop pods? I've run many different types of marine lists in my life and most haven't included drop pods.

Lets compare look at any Tournament placing Eldar list and I can near Guarantee it will have 4+ Wave Serpents in it. That tells you something about the Serpent. Compare with similar Marine lists and over half won't have a single DP in them.

Yes DPs change the game, that's the point of them and they can give you free reign of the field and can give you board control. That is literally their point, it is why they exist. Can they be countered? Yes and often fairly easily. Do they force you to split your force and/or show your hand turn 1? Again yes.

Are they massively undercosted? Nope. Are they something that desperately needs fixing? Again not at all. The idea that a drop pod that can't move has 3 HPs and 2 S4 shots in a generalist army should be only 15 points less than a drop pod that can move, fight in assault (at Ap2), has 6 wounds, 15 S5 shots and is in a more specialist army is frankly laughable.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly. The WS is perhaps the best model in the game. It's certainly in the running. I've seen drop pods back fire way too many times to even consider them more than "good".

yup the thing about things like wave serpents is that they are ALWAYS going to be good, you will never ever not want/need a highly durable highly mobile scoring powerful firebase that has ignores cover and twin linked bs4.

drop pods can often not help at all, or even be a hindrance to you in a lot of match ups where you want to stay far away ect

that being said, they are good, but not OP good.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying. 

Lol then why pray tell do most tournament winning mqrine lists not include any drop pods? I've run many different types of marine lists in my life and most haven't included drop pods.

Lets compare look at any Tournament placing Eldar list and I can near Guarantee it will have 4+ Wave Serpents in it. That tells you something about the Serpent. Compare with similar Marine lists and over half won't have a single DP in them.

Yes DPs change the game, that's the point of them and they can give you free reign of the field and can give you board control. That is literally their point, it is why they exist. Can they be countered? Yes and often fairly easily. Do they force you to split your force and/or show your hand turn 1? Again yes.

Are they massively undercosted? Nope. Are they something that desperately needs fixing? Again not at all. The idea that a drop pod that can't move has 3 HPs and 2 S4 shots in a generalist army should be only 15 points less than a drop pod that can move, fight in assault (at Ap2), has 6 wounds, 15 S5 shots and is in a more specialist army is frankly laughable.

Except it's not about their immobility or firepower.

It's about their ability to deliver any infantry unit to exactly where it needs to be, in almost perfect safety, often exactly when it wants to be there, and to do it before an opponent can really do anything about it aside from hoping bubble-wrap works.

They really are very cheap for that capability, to say nothing of being able to block movement, control objectives, etc.

Out of the last...probably three of four years and playing in multiple different cities hundreds of miles apart, playing largely on a weekly basis, I think only two SM players I've faced did not routinely run drop pods, and one of those was an all biker army.


As for Tournament placing Eldar and Tournament placing SM armies, the top SM list at the Nova Open had 6 drop pods IIRC, the top Eldar list had 5 or 6 WS's, but the 2nd top Eldar list (and 3rd overall) only had 2, and the 7th overall place Eldar list had none.

Why can't sm assault out of dp then i taje them but they just don't do what i believe thet should let you do attack ur opponent on ur terms not oh lets get and stand here a trun before we can charge

zilka86 wrote:
Why can't sm assault out of dp then i taje them but they just don't do what i believe thet should let you do attack ur opponent on ur terms not oh lets get and stand here a trun before we can charge

Seriously dude, spellcheck. As for why, because the rules forbid it.

I would still pay up to like 70 points for a pod on a BA fragioso.

In fact I'm pretty sure that without the pod, I would shelf my fragiosos until a more walker-friendly edition. MAYBE put one in a raven every once in a while.

I have yet to lose to a drop pod army. In my local, the Salamanders player loves them to death. He likes putting just about every imaginable combination of infantry and Dreadnaughts possible into them. You name the unit that can go into a Drop Pod, he has tried at least once, if not multiple times.

The strength of the "Drop Pod" army list is the infiltration of your deployment zone, on turns 1 and 2 respectively. Which in turn, allows the DP player to score a lot of line breaker secondary objectives.

The disadvantage of the DP army list is, it effectively divides their force into 2 or 3 smaller forces that are more easily taken out piecemeal. The DP marine player can have his units taken out by the full might of the opposing army.

A good deployment of the forces at your disposal, will insure that you can choose where he might get to set up his Drop Pods. If your mission starts with Objectives on the board during set up. You can choose to place your objective tokens in your zone. Then by placing your Troops around them, they can then secure that objective. It is easy enough to huddle your Troops around an objective, using proper squad dispersion, to disallow a drop pod the minimum, to be able to score that objective by itself.

Can anyone deny that drop pods are not part of the fluff for Space Marines? They have been a part of the fluff since Rogue Trader. It only took GW like 5 or 6 editions to make the models a reality. What is that? Like 20 to 25 years? In my opinion, Drop Pods have been long over due concerning the fluff.

So, in summary, I think the Drop Pods are just fine, as is.

 TWilkins wrote:


You're missing my point completely. I'm not saying that drop pod lists are the most powerful things ever created. I'm saying that a single drop pod is worth a lot more than it costs.
And there's no need to be so condescending regarding Meta, believe me I wish I could play against more people. But I can't. So I make do.
And I understand game balance very well. And I understand that having an instant deep strike turn one with almost no chance of mishap and no need to roll for reserves is unbalanced. It ignores the reserves rule, the risks of deep striking, the need to roll for reserves and all for a measly 35 points.

If I'm missing your point, you're making mine. Game balance (and not that there is any in 40k) has to be measured in lists and detachmetnts. If you're playing unbound, then what does balance matter anyway?

Unit cost is only relevant in so far that it creates a list. There is no unbalanced list with drop pods in it. Even a BA/SW list with AM melta vets popping out of it shouldn't break anything. If a unit can't yield a broken list with it's only possible uses, then it's just fine. Units can't be taken in a vacuum.

For example. If chaplains suddenly dropped to 20points... It probably wouldn't change the meta much, if at all. It'd still take up a spot in a slot, and still would have to run around with marines.

Drop pods aren't deploying all melta Fire Dragons or Crisis Suits or move shoot move rending Dires. It's at best a Sternguard suicude squad, which can be bubble wrapped against, which is 40k 101 type stuff. Its like saying an Ork bike is broken because it's so much better than a marine bike (and it is) without thinking about the fact that only Orks can use it with only Ork options. If you can't follow why looking at units out of the context of their codex is a non sequitur, well that might be why you're losing games to an AV 12 deployment mechanic.

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have tried this exact setup, and holing up in a corner is a terrible idea. The BA player can grab all of the objectives, and then you blow with drop pods, and then you blow two turns just running around like an idiot trying to get rid of them... And your army is super far away from half the objectives. If you have a heavy LOS blocking map, you can't even shoot at some if the objective-claiming drop pods until T3. With the stormravens being so physically large (and a flyer), the BA player has an advantage just denying objectives if the Tyranid player starts off far from them. 

Secondly, you guarantee that the BA player is going to crush with blasts, templates, grenades. Remember those stormravens are nasty against ground units. And finally, you have the problem that if you fail leadership rolls and your opponent is clever in assault, you can actually lose whole units (nowhere to flee). 

I think the best answer to Angel's Fury is Flyrants. No matter what, you have to deal with 3 flyers that are quite damaging, and all the carnifexes in the world won't do jack. 

Also, we have found that the higher the point level of the game, the greater the advantage of Angel's Fury and drop pods. The T1 alpha charge is especially good if you have 2500, 3000, or 3500 points to work with. 

Well it wasn't a terrible idea as I tabled my opponent with a Nid list that had 2 units of Warriors and 2 Units of Genestealers in it (illustrating it is a more fun than competitive list). He's invested more than half his army in the Formation making it reliant on that Alphastrike. Denying him that won me the game. Castling isn't always the best call against all DP armies or even all alphastriking armies but it and bubble wrap are good tools to use in the right situation.

The point is countering 3 or 4 DPs is pretty easy and possible with any codex even the much lamented Nid dex. That DPs are not OP and game breaking. The can be part of VERY effective lists and are a good tool to help an army that is hamstrung by its generalist nature. Yes you can build a top tier list with DPs however you can also build many SM top tier lists without them. They are not an auto include and do come with counters and down sides.

I completely agree with your point that SM are not dependent on DP. DP can also be used effectively without being cheesy and spammy. Maybe I came off too strong -- I just was trying to make the point that sticking your Tyranids in a corner as a counter to deep strike T1 charge isn't generally a winning strategy, as it it has functional weaknesses, and essentially concedes two-thirds of a 6x4 board to your opponent for at least a couple of turns and half the board for longer than that (especially if you have ground-slogging army. Just because an army can null deploy deep strike charge doesn't mean that it HAS to charge, and it's not like your opponent wont know exactly what he's charging into.

By the way, if your buddy got foiled by a couple of warrior and genestealer units... Well, he is doing something wrong The deep strike alpha charge is cool, but those thousand points aren't exactly thrown away. The three stormravens and thirty tacticals are solid, useful units. Really, the only "tax" is about 15 of the tacticals.

easysauce wrote:serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will... eldar get super powerfull and cheap DT's, shootyness, CC, psychic powers... Im missing the thing they are supposed the be bad at....

Losing?

DarknessEternal wrote:Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying.

As a SoB player, I'd volunteer for the Repentia or as a Penitent Engine "pilot" for my army to have DP as a native option.

zilka86 wrote:
Why can't sm assault out of dp then i taje them but they just don't do what i believe thet should let you do attack ur opponent on ur terms not oh lets get and stand here a trun before we can charge

SM cannot *charge* from a drop pod on the turn it lands, because units arriving from deep strike can't charge on the turn they arrive. If you want to do this, play Angelo's Fury, which has a special rule that overrides this under certain conditions.

SYKOJAK wrote:
I have yet to lose to a drop pod army. In my local, the Salamanders player loves them to death. He likes putting just about every imaginable combination of infantry and Dreadnaughts possible into them. You name the unit that can go into a Drop Pod, he has tried at least once, if not multiple times.

The strength of the "Drop Pod" army list is the infiltration of your deployment zone, on turns 1 and 2 respectively. Which in turn, allows the DP player to score a lot of line breaker secondary objectives.

The disadvantage of the DP army list is, it effectively divides their force into 2 or 3 smaller forces that are more easily taken out piecemeal. The DP marine player can have his units taken out by the full might of the opposing army.

A good deployment of the forces at your disposal, will insure that you can choose where he might get to set up his Drop Pods. If your mission starts with Objectives on the board during set up. You can choose to place your objective tokens in your zone. Then by placing your Troops around them, they can then secure that objective. It is easy enough to huddle your Troops around an objective, using proper squad dispersion, to disallow a drop pod the minimum, to be able to score that objective by itself.

Can anyone deny that drop pods are not part of the fluff for Space Marines? They have been a part of the fluff since Rogue Trader. It only took GW like 5 or 6 editions to make the models a reality. What is that? Like 20 to 25 years? In my opinion, Drop Pods have been long over due concerning the fluff.

So, in summary, I think the Drop Pods are just fine, as is.

This poster explains my position very well.

Martel732 wrote:

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly.

That's just delusional. I'm not going to participate in that level of willful ignorance.

Not really. Read the above posts. I'm not the only one saying that drop pods can backfire big time.

Anything can backfire or fail to work.

But a well built drop pod list isn't anything to sneeze at.

Having a mix of mechanized units and drop pods can be a devastating mix. You drop some units turn 1, they shoot at stuff while your mechanized forces advance, now your opponent has to deal with a ton of infantry amongst their lines *and* stopping the imminent arrival of whatever mechanized forces you have plus any support elements sitting in the backfield.

I've seen that work dozens of times.

And it's not like they're an auto-win button or anything. The fact that they aren't doesn't mean they aren't really, really good. A bad player with a good army will still lose plenty of games.

By the way, if your buddy got foiled by a couple of warrior and genestealer units... Well, he is doing something wrong  The deep strike alpha charge is cool, but those thousand points aren't exactly thrown away. The three stormravens and thirty tacticals are solid, useful units. Really, the only "tax" is about 15 of the tacticals.

He didn't get foiled by the Warriors and Stealers they largely achieved very little. The Flyrants, Dakafex and Zoanthropes did the majority of the killing. Whilst the spores largely did the bubble wrapping.

I knew my opponent and his army. His army is built on that Alphastrike and he only knows how to use it that way. I still had mobility in Flyrants, was not in my Deployment Zone due to infiltrating bubble wrap and I had a pod of my own. So at the end of the game I was winning fairly comfortably on VPs too.

DPs are a solid choice and can be used effectively. Your best ways to counter them are deployment and interceptor. If you can't deploy to counter them at all that is your fault not a game balance issue with DPs.

Yes they allow someone to deliver short ranged units into range. But putting them at near the same cost as a Wyvern that can deliver far more death turn 1 without having to put expensive units at risk is madness. Likewise Broadsides, Wave Serpents etc that have great long range firepower can do all the killing they want turn 1 again without having to put themselves in harms way.

Drop Pods are fine. They are currently a good unit. They are not a great unit, nor an auto include. They are not as easy to use as many other units (like the 3 mentioned above). They do not give a game breaking tactical advantage. They give a tactical option that you have to commit to and they force your hand and give you little fall back options.

If you're playing unbound, then what does balance matter anyway?

Why would balance not matter if you're playing with an unbound list? Sure they in general aren't up there with the top tier battleforged lists but you can still do some very strong unbound lists though they're generally one dimensional (double TC'tan is probably the best unbound list,though it has hard counters).

I really believe you should be able to charge out of a dropod the trun it arrives as it seems the point of drop pod not just to oh lets land right in the enemys back yard and shoot at him and make hime mad .


DROP PODS SHOULD LET YOU CHARGE THE TRUB U ARRIVE NOT JUST SHOOT. IF SO IT WOULD MAKE ASSAULT MARINES AND BOTH KIND OF TERMYS WAY MORE USEFUL IN MY BOOK. I HAVE HOUSE RULED IT THAT YOU CAN ASSAULT OUT OF DROP PODS. AS THAT SEEMS WHAT DROP PODS ARE FOR. AND IT STILL DON'T MAKE PODS THAT GOOD

Spell Check is your friend.

And they removed charging from Drop Pods just as it got removed from Rhinos. Why would they be any different? The "cannot charge" is explained by the fact that they need time to get out of their harnesses etc.

"It seems that's how drop pods work" right?
Also, as the hatch opens, you can fire a shot or 2 before you remove your harness, hence allowed to shoot

zilka86 wrote:
[Translation on]I really believe you should be able to charge out of a drop pod the turn it arrives. It seems the point of drop pods is not just to "oh, lets land right in the enemy's back yard, shoot at him and make him mad".

Drop pods should let you charge the turn you arrive, not just shoot. If so, it would make assault marines, and both kind of termys, way more useful in my book. I have house-ruled that you can assault out of drop pods, as that seems what drop pods are for. And, it still doesn't make pods that good.[Translation off]

I hope that is what you intended to type.

Fluff-wise, being thrown out of space in a harness takes time to recover from. Once the pod has hit the ground, and every non-enhanced person on board has stuffed their brains back in their ears, the doors have to drop, and the passengers are free to disembark.
Once you let them get their gear and size-up the enemy standing around outside, it's time for the next turn.
So after "jets, thud, clank, whoosh, groan, stomp", there's barely time left to let off a few rounds.

House-rule all you like. Why not just let Marines get Rending with CCW while you're at it. They're augmented super-soldiers, right?

Did someone actually say drop pods are a hindrance? Easy to counter? You've got it completely backwards? What kind of foresight do your drop pod enemies have where you play?

Easy to counter why? because you can bubble wrap and hide in a corner? I'm forcing my enemy to start bunched up in a corner and you think you are countering me? Give me the table for 140 points of pods which are gonna hassle you all game regardless of where you start? All of the best strategic locations will be mine? Oh and by the way...I've got 2 Chapter masters with Orbital bombardment...the first 2 drop pods I drop will be empty and we can start this all over again next turn while you continue your bubble wrap and hid in the corner strategy. Drop pods control the field....If you think otherwise you are delusional.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did someone actually say drop pods are a hindrance? Easy to counter? You've got it completely backwards? What kind of foresight do your drop pod enemies have where you play?

Easy to counter why? because you can bubble wrap and hide in a corner? I'm forcing my enemy to start bunched up in a corner and you think you are countering me? Give me the table for 140 points of pods which are gonna hassle you all game regardless of where you start? All of the best strategic locations will be mine? Oh and by the way...I've got 2 Chapter masters with Orbital bombardment...the first 2 drop pods I drop will be empty and we can start this all over again next turn while you continue your bubble wrap and hid in the corner strategy. Drop pods control the field....If you think otherwise you are delusional.

They control the field until I kill what came out of them. I said they COULD be a hindrance SOMETIMES. And, yes, relatively easy to counter with practice.

Playing Adepta Sororitas, i'd guess the enemy has as many Drop Pods (or less) than i have Rhinos.

He can pop 1 or 2 (possibly), but then my Units get to fire back.

I don't think it's as OP as people think. Sure it's quite brutal and possibly surprising, but that's all.

How can it be surprising when you see their list ahead of time?

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did someone actually say drop pods are a hindrance? Easy to counter? You've got it completely backwards? What kind of foresight do your drop pod enemies have where you play?

Easy to counter why? because you can bubble wrap and hide in a corner? I'm forcing my enemy to start bunched up in a corner and you think you are countering me? Give me the table for 140 points of pods which are gonna hassle you all game regardless of where you start? All of the best strategic locations will be mine? Oh and by the way...I've got 2 Chapter masters with Orbital bombardment...the first 2 drop pods I drop will be empty and we can start this all over again next turn while you continue your bubble wrap and hid in the corner strategy. Drop pods control the field....If you think otherwise you are delusional.

They control the field until I kill what came out of them. I said they COULD be a hindrance SOMETIMES. And, yes, relatively easy to counter with practice.

I play agianst pods all the time. They are always a hassle no matter what I do. Their cheapest use is SW with IG allies and put 60 point special weapon teams in them with 3 meltas orcompany commands with orders or vetren squads in them with melta and demo and grey hunters in some of them. Nothing you can do to stop those squads from killing more than they are worth unless ofc they roll badly.

Yeah, I already said SW pods are unhinged. For the rest of the marines, though, they get less effective. Quickly.

Drop pods are high risk, high reward. Against someone who isn’t ready for them, either due to lack of units to bubble wrap with or inexperience, you are going to alpha strike them right off the table. Against someone who knows what they are doing, it can be an uphill battle as half your army faces all of theirs.

As a drop pod player, you need to be very careful how you build your list, and where you drop what. Because all of your mobility is front loaded, once you commit, you are stuck. And there is a time and place for suicide drops, but sometimes it’s better to use a safer, flank drop.

I don’t think they are undercosted for what they do. While they excel in their transport job, putting their cargo in optimal range with next to no risk, the force you into a high-risk mode of play. Which is not always the best option.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I already said SW pods are unhinged. For the rest of the marines, though, they get less effective. Quickly.

Thats just because marines really don't have anything spectacular to put in them outside of a venerable dreadnought or centurions maybe DA veterans. Still though - With IG gaining access to them they become broken beyond belief - even sisters in pods is out of control. Just goes to show you that marines in general are awful units they can't even abuse the most under-costed transport in the game - grey-hunters do it okay just because grey-hunters are actually decent meq which is quite a rarity. Wish I could put purgation squads in pods - sucks grey-knights got no pod.

I think grey-knights have enough toys.

Martel732 wrote:
I think grey-knights have enough toys.

Dread knights, affordable term troops with a usable heavy weapon, and purifiers. We lose drop pods though...pretty big drawback. We get NSF but...gotta roll for the alpha...not reliable. I think most marine armies could use a few new toys.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I already said SW pods are unhinged. For the rest of the marines, though, they get less effective. Quickly.

You have heard of the Flesh Tearer Detachment then? 1 HQ+1Troop that allows for 6 Pods? (for those IG and Sisters )

Marine armies need fewer toys in general and more things that work. All one needs to do to see how dependent marines are on a few selections by comparing BA to regular marines. Because the BA lost all of them, imo. I don't count the drop pod. I wouldn't miss it much, except for Furiosos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I already said SW pods are unhinged. For the rest of the marines, though, they get less effective. Quickly.

You have heard of the Flesh Tearer Detachment then? 1 HQ+1Troop that allows for 6 Pods? (for those IG and Sisters )

What's your point? That's IG and Sisters being good drop troops, not marines.

Point was you though SW were unhinged, but i thing the new BA Codex gives more pods for a cheaper Tax

Well, the Exterminatus book technically...

Martel732 wrote:
Marine armies need fewer toys in general and more things that work. All one needs to do to see how dependent marines are on a few selections by comparing BA to regular marines. Because the BA lost all of them, imo. I don't count the drop pod. I wouldn't miss it much, except for Furiosos.

Aren't pretty much all Blood Angel vehicles Fast? Moving 12" and still being able to fire at full BS is a big deal. I'd pay quite a few points for my Hammerheads to have that ability again.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Aren't pretty much all Blood Angel vehicles Fast?

Their drop pods are quite quick, yeah

 BlackTalos wrote:
Point was you though SW were unhinged, but i thing the new BA Codex gives more pods for a cheaper Tax

Well, the Exterminatus book technically...

The SW are unhinged because you can't assault them effectively after they drop. Not because of the drops themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine armies need fewer toys in general and more things that work. All one needs to do to see how dependent marines are on a few selections by comparing BA to regular marines. Because the BA lost all of them, imo. I don't count the drop pod. I wouldn't miss it much, except for Furiosos.

Aren't pretty much all Blood Angel vehicles Fast? Moving 12" and still being able to fire at full BS is a big deal. I'd pay quite a few points for my Hammerheads to have that ability again.

That's a small comfort with no grav cents, storm talons, smashbane, grav biker troops, TFCs, or AA tanks. After a few games, I feel the BA are still toward the cellar in the army pecking order. Still bullied by SW. Can't touch the power codices. Still can't handle the GK.

Martel732 wrote:
Marine armies need fewer toys in general and more things that work. All one needs to do to see how dependent marines are on a few selections by comparing BA to regular marines. Because the BA lost all of them, imo. I don't count the drop pod. I wouldn't miss it much, except for Furiosos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I already said SW pods are unhinged. For the rest of the marines, though, they get less effective. Quickly.

You have heard of the Flesh Tearer Detachment then? 1 HQ+1Troop that allows for 6 Pods? (for those IG and Sisters )

What's your point? That's IG and Sisters being good drop troops, not marines.

Yeah thats totally the point. Since all IOM can utilize the drop pod it is under-costed. If a drop pod stated in it's rules that only space marines could board it then by all rights they should be free to take for all marine squads considering their points and what they are armed with.

I guess. I'm just not feeling it. I guess I'll have to go up against it to fully understand.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. I'm just not feeling it. I guess I'll have to go up against it to fully understand.

Company command and a vet squad drop together. Cast orders on each squad to ignore cover or tank hunter and it's GG your two biggest tanks, IK, or whatever you got. Really tough for me to stop with my DA who like to field a lot of armor. It's part of the reason I started playing Grey-knights more exclusively.

Assuming they can even drop within melta range.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. I'm just not feeling it. I guess I'll have to go up against it to fully understand.

Company command and a vet squad drop together. Cast orders on each squad to ignore cover or tank hunter and it's GG your two biggest tanks, IK, or whatever you got. Really tough for me to stop with my DA who like to field a lot of armor. It's part of the reason I started playing Grey-knights more exclusively.

The answer to this problem is in deployment. When you deploy your army, and you look down at the table, you should be able to see that the space you left open next to your predators and whirlwinds is wide open. At this point your mind should be telling you, "Hey, I know they have drop pods, and I know what's in them. They have melta guns. I shouldn't let them drop there".

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

Drop Pods are predictable. You know when they are coming, you know how they are coming, you can usually guess where they are going, and you know what's coming. They aren't impossibly difficult game enders like it seems some here are arguing (not directed at you Xenomancers). Most of the counter to them is in the deployment phase.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. I'm just not feeling it. I guess I'll have to go up against it to fully understand.

Company command and a vet squad drop together. Cast orders on each squad to ignore cover or tank hunter and it's GG your two biggest tanks, IK, or whatever you got. Really tough for me to stop with my DA who like to field a lot of armor. It's part of the reason I started playing Grey-knights more exclusively.

The answer to this problem is in deployment. When you deploy your army, and you look down at the table, you should be able to see that the space you left open next to your predators and whirlwinds is wide open. At this point your mind should be telling you, "Hey, I know they have drop pods, and I know what's in them. They have melta guns. I shouldn't let them drop there".

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

Drop Pods are predictable. You know when they are coming, you know how they are coming, you can usually guess where they are going, and you know what's coming. They aren't impossibly difficult game enders like it seems some here are arguing (not directed at you Xenomancers). Most of the counter to them is in the deployment phase.

This is why I still use MM attack bikes.

 Ignatius wrote:

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

How?

 vipoid wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

How?

By spacing your units and utilizing terrain they can't legally drop into. In fact, their own pod will carry them away from you. Irony, indeed.

Many play groups I've seen stipulate that you have to be able to deploy the doors, as well.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

How?

By setting up the rest of your units around the tanks? By putting them next to area terrain? Buildings? Table edges? Honestly there are tons of ways to manipulate where your enemy decides to come in. Give them a throw away unit that looks too good to be true (and is). A huge part of strategy games is dictating the terms of engagements, knowing what the opponent will do and creating counters to it.

Admittedly, it helps that we play with a lot of terrain. Just not much blocks LOS. But you don't need LOS blocking to shield yourself from pods.

 Ignatius wrote:

By setting up the rest of your units around the tanks?

What if you don't have any expendable tanks to spare for this? Or, not enough to blockade them off?

 Ignatius wrote:
By putting them next to area terrain? Buildings? Table edges?

Depends on the area terrain, surely? I thought Drop Pods could land in some area terrain?

 Ignatius wrote:
Honestly there are tons of ways to manipulate where your enemy decides to come in. Give them a throw away unit that looks too good to be true (and is). A huge part of strategy games is dictating the terms of engagements, knowing what the opponent will do and creating counters to it.

My point is simply that you don't always have multiple 'spare' units you can afford to just throw to the drop pods. Or terrain that's perfect for deploying all your valuable stuff behind.

And, even if you do, your opponent is able to massively influence your deployment with those units - whilst still potentially doing a lot of damage to you.

No, drop pods can not enter any kind of terrain.

"whilst still potentially doing a lot of damage to you."

Not as much as I'm going to do back against non-SW.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. I'm just not feeling it. I guess I'll have to go up against it to fully understand.

Company command and a vet squad drop together. Cast orders on each squad to ignore cover or tank hunter and it's GG your two biggest tanks, IK, or whatever you got. Really tough for me to stop with my DA who like to field a lot of armor. It's part of the reason I started playing Grey-knights more exclusively.

The answer to this problem is in deployment. When you deploy your army, and you look down at the table, you should be able to see that the space you left open next to your predators and whirlwinds is wide open. At this point your mind should be telling you, "Hey, I know they have drop pods, and I know what's in them. They have melta guns. I shouldn't let them drop there".

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

Drop Pods are predictable. You know when they are coming, you know how they are coming, you can usually guess where they are going, and you know what's coming. They aren't impossibly difficult game enders like it seems some here are arguing (not directed at you Xenomancers). Most of the counter to them is in the deployment phase.

Unless you are a hoard army or want to deploy in a corner castle (which almost always will lose you the game anyways) There is no way to cover every angle to your armor with drop pod meltas if you have a significant amount of armor. I'm doing everything you suggest you just can't cover the whole board with models. Maybe you play with a lot more impassable terrain than I do or something. Drop pods are actually very unpredictable - they can drop them anywhere - and they can put squads with different specialties in them (plasma or melta) - you know whats in them but they don't have to drop them in any order. Sometimes people will even have empty pods so they can put alpha strike and go for beta strike against castles (it's not just a drop pod tax - it's options.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
No, drop pods can not enter any kind of terrain.

"whilst still potentially doing a lot of damage to you."

Not as much as I'm going to do back against non-SW.

Drop pods just get pushed to the minimum distance to allow you to deploy it then the units inside get full movement out of the dang thing. they cost 35 points is the only issue. I'm not saying they are unbeatable or anything cause they aren't. They are however to good for their points.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

By setting up the rest of your units around the tanks?

What if you don't have any expendable tanks to spare for this? Or, not enough to blockade them off?

Well at this point then you are giving up your tanks. If you don't have the resources necessary to protect them, then either your army list is unbalanced or your tanks are not as important to you as you think. There's no way that you don't have any units to bubble wrap with. What about tacticals and such? Put them around the vehicles at max coherency and dominate your deployment zone.

 Ignatius wrote:
By putting them next to area terrain? Buildings? Table edges?

Depends on the area terrain, surely? I thought Drop Pods could land in some area terrain?

No sir, not that I'm aware of. Essentially, what I'm advocating is using the terrain and table edges to deny landings where you are unable to bubble wrap with units.

 Ignatius wrote:
Honestly there are tons of ways to manipulate where your enemy decides to come in. Give them a throw away unit that looks too good to be true (and is). A huge part of strategy games is dictating the terms of engagements, knowing what the opponent will do and creating counters to it.

My point is simply that you don't always have multiple 'spare' units you can afford to just throw to the drop pods. Or terrain that's perfect for deploying all your valuable stuff behind.

And, even if you do, your opponent is able to massively influence your deployment with those units - whilst still potentially doing a lot of damage to you.

It's a give and take. Sure they are able to influence you in that you have to make sure that your units are protecting your tanks- a minor inconvenience. At the same time however, you are influencing them by making their choice of where to put their pods very difficult. Remember that they MUST bring half of them on turn one. If you can set it up right, you may even scare them enough into just dropping them on objectives or midfield instead of right next to your armor. All I'm saying here is that the application of tactical placement and thinking goes a long way against drop pod lists.

 Ignatius wrote:
Well at this point then you are giving up your tanks. If you don't have the resources necessary to protect them, then either your army list is unbalanced or your tanks are not as important to you as you think. There's no way that you don't have any units to bubble wrap with. What about tacticals and such? Put them around the vehicles at max coherency and dominate your deployment zone. ]

Since when was I talking about marines?

I'm thinking of my DE army here.

If I put any units outside their vehicles then those models are dead.

Don't DE have any cheap, expendable infantry?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. I'm just not feeling it. I guess I'll have to go up against it to fully understand.

Company command and a vet squad drop together. Cast orders on each squad to ignore cover or tank hunter and it's GG your two biggest tanks, IK, or whatever you got. Really tough for me to stop with my DA who like to field a lot of armor. It's part of the reason I started playing Grey-knights more exclusively.

The answer to this problem is in deployment. When you deploy your army, and you look down at the table, you should be able to see that the space you left open next to your predators and whirlwinds is wide open. At this point your mind should be telling you, "Hey, I know they have drop pods, and I know what's in them. They have melta guns. I shouldn't let them drop there".

And then something incredible happens. You don't allow them to drop there. Mind. Blown.

Drop Pods are predictable. You know when they are coming, you know how they are coming, you can usually guess where they are going, and you know what's coming. They aren't impossibly difficult game enders like it seems some here are arguing (not directed at you Xenomancers). Most of the counter to them is in the deployment phase.

Unless you are a hoard army or want to deploy in a corner castle (which almost always will lose you the game anyways) There is no way to cover every angle to your armor with drop pod meltas if you have a significant amount of armor. I'm doing everything you suggest you just can't cover the whole board with models. Maybe you play with a lot more impassable terrain than I do or something. Drop pods are actually very unpredictable - they can drop them anywhere - and they can put squads with different specialties in them (plasma or melta) - you know whats in them but they don't have to drop them in any order. Sometimes people will even have empty pods so they can put alpha strike and go for beta strike against castles (it's not just a drop pod tax - it's options.)

Okay let's look at it from a costs-benefit perspective. A unit of Space Marine Sternguard Melta Veterans drop pods in. Because you are smart, you have placed your most valuable armor units in bubble wraps and in cover. Sadly, you did not have enough units to cover all your armor. One of your (I don't know what army you play, but let's use... Chaos. I don't know) Maulerfiends is out in the open. Your opponent sees this, and puts his drop pod in a manner that he is able to land next to your vehicle. The drop pod scores a direct hit! It lands right next to it. Unfortunately, your Maulerfiend stands no chance. It dies horribly. Your turn comes however, and you want revenge. You assault his sternguard with some Spawn you have with your MoK Juggerlord. Buh bye sternguard.

So, you managed to take out what was probably one of what? 2? 3? 4?! units on the enemy side that can hurt your Land Raider (your high value armor that you bubble wrapped) for the cost of one Maulerfiend. Worth it? Well, YMMV but I'd say yes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
No, drop pods can not enter any kind of terrain.

"whilst still potentially doing a lot of damage to you."

Not as much as I'm going to do back against non-SW.

Drop pods just get pushed to the minimum distance to allow you to deploy it then the units inside get full movement out of the dang thing. they cost 35 points is the only issue. I'm not saying they are unbeatable or anything cause they aren't. They are however to good for their points.

Yes, they are good for their points. But so are a lot of other units in the game. Being good for the points shouldn't make it necessary for them to be reduced. If we just went around raising the prices of the good units in the game, then we are left with a standard that is below average- which is fun for no one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Well at this point then you are giving up your tanks. If you don't have the resources necessary to protect them, then either your army list is unbalanced or your tanks are not as important to you as you think. There's no way that you don't have any units to bubble wrap with. What about tacticals and such? Put them around the vehicles at max coherency and dominate your deployment zone. ]

Since when was I talking about marines?

I'm thinking of my DE army here.

If I put any units outside their vehicles then those models are dead.

Okay my apologies. I didn't know what army you had and used Space Marines as a filler.

I know for a fact that Dark Eldar Warriors are cheap and plentiful. I also know that they have Webway Portals that you can reserve a significant amount of your armor in. I know they have Nightshields which laugh at melta. Raiders and Venoms are spammable, cheap, and plentiful. They are capable of deep striking themselves. There is always answers. If you'd like we can go through every army and tourny winning list and I can show you, but I don't think that would be the proper use of our time.

It seems the consensus for stopping drop pods is using interceptor and counter-deployment...
A lot of armies have no access to interceptor in their Codex, hell some of them don't even have skyfire.
And as far as expendable troops go, yes you can do this with Orcs, 'Nids, Chaos... But Eldar and Dark Eldar can't really afford expendable troops.
And as far as Deep Striking venoms and raiders go, they don't have the ability to practically ignore all DS mishap and a lot of players won't risk deep striking the raider especially because of its awkward shape. And as far as Night Shields laughing at Melta goes, we loose our ability too shoot most of the time because we need to Jink. To stop this a lot of players are savy and deploy out of line of sight or behind buildings to get better saves, but drop pods ignore our careful deployment and force us into jinking.
Not to mention that deep striking Flamers will probably ruin a DE player turn one. I don't think anyone can deny this fact. No cover, no saves, auto-hit and auto-kill our units inside, all you need to do is wound. Drop pods hurt the Dark Eldar the most of all I believe, which may be bias on my point of view.
Drop Pod spam is probably easy to counter for Marines and whatnot. But for other armies who are relying on mobility, particularly Eldar and Dark Eldar, they can't afford to hide in a corner and get no victory points.
And Even if you do scatter say the full 12" away from what you wanted to shoot at. With the 6" disembarkation you can get into range with everything apart from possibly an unlucky melta range weapon. Scatter doesn't mean much to a vehicle that has no risks when it comes to deep striking other than a table edge. If I deploy my whole army around the table edge, then I loose all of my mobility and you can still just drop down in the rest of my deployment zone that I haven't used.
In a maelstrom mission, Drop Pods are an incredible and efficient way to capture objectives, and then deny the enemy from capturing objectives.
Essentially from the point of a Dark Eldar player, they are too cheap for what they do. From the point of a Space Marine player, it seems as though they are not.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't DE have any cheap, expendable infantry?

Not really, no.

 Ignatius wrote:

Okay my apologies. I didn't know what army you had and used Space Marines as a filler.

No worries.

 Ignatius wrote:

I know for a fact that Dark Eldar Warriors are cheap and plentiful.

Cheap perhaps, but that's not the same as plentiful. Nor the same as expendable.

 Ignatius wrote:
I also know that they have Webway Portals that you can reserve a significant amount of your armor in.

Are we not discussing a TAC list here? WWPs have to be bought in advance - I can't just see that my opponent is using lots of drop pods and suddenly decide to take 10 of the things.

Furthermore, each WWP also requires a character - meaning you have the cost of said character and need to attach that character to the vehicle (which is frequently impossible when venoms are capacity 5 and most of our squads are minimum-5).

 Ignatius wrote:
I know they have Nightshields which laugh at melta.

I wasn't aware that Night Shields were free.

Also, I assume you're referring to my Jinking - in which case I'm crippling my own firepower.

Also also, Night Shields really don't laugh at melta. Most of the time, it only takes one failed save and your vehicle is dead.

 Ignatius wrote:
They are capable of deep striking themselves.

Which often isn't remotely desirable.

 Ignatius wrote:
There is always answers

Yes, and so far they all involve clairvoyance on my part, feeding different units to those drop pods, or else crippling my deployment.

Even if they don't get to my juiciest targets, can you not see how badly these drop pods are affecting my deployment?

Your whole problem seems to center around the changes to open-topped transports. Given how stupid good open-topped has been for some time, it was a necessary change, because open-topped vehicles were just super-cheap assault vehicles.

Eldar don't need expendable troops. The Eldar just weather the storm with their shields and then crush the drop troops.

Martel732 wrote:
Your whole problem seems to center around the changes to open-topped transports. Given how stupid good open-topped has been for some time, it was a necessary change, because open-topped vehicles were just super-cheap assault vehicles.

Yeah, our open-top vehicles have no disadvantages whatsoever.

Not like they're really fragile or made more vulnerable by being open-topped.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Your whole problem seems to center around the changes to open-topped transports. Given how stupid good open-topped has been for some time, it was a necessary change, because open-topped vehicles were just super-cheap assault vehicles.

Yeah, our open-top vehicles have no disadvantages whatsoever.

Not like they're really fragile or made more vulnerable by being open-topped.

+1 to the pen result was far too little of a disadvantage to be given *assault transport* in return.

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Your whole problem seems to center around the changes to open-topped transports. Given how stupid good open-topped has been for some time, it was a necessary change, because open-topped vehicles were just super-cheap assault vehicles.

Yeah, our open-top vehicles have no disadvantages whatsoever.

Not like they're really fragile or made more vulnerable by being open-topped.

+1 to the pen result was far too little of a disadvantage to be given *assault transport* in return.

+1 to damage roll is a pretty big deal when you have AV10 on all sides.

Meltas have a 97.2% chance to penetrate an AV10 vehicle within half range. Outside of half range they have a 66% chance to pen. Then they have a 50% chance of exploding the vehicle (and in 6th it was a 66% chance to explode)

Sounds like +1 to damage roll is pretty damn powerful, if you ask me. I know my Tau railguns loved playing Dark Eldar, especially before our new book when broadsides were S10.

AV 10 is just as easily HPed out and real weapons shot at other targets. The assault upgrade is easily worth the +1 and then some.

Martel732 wrote:
AV 10 is just as easily HPed out and real weapons shot at other targets. The assault upgrade is easily worth the +1 and then some.

Except for the part where Dark Eldar typically don't have many other targets to shoot AT at.
So you might as well pop the vehicles with high AP guns then hose down the survivors with the rest of your guns.

All of their vehicles are AV10 except for the Ravager, the only other thing to shoot AT weapons at are the Cronos and Talos, who are pretty slow so they can wait.

Dark eldar really need to have the first turn...I have no idea why they took vect out of the book. I mean...he was the lord of the dark eldar....

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark eldar really need to have the first turn...I have no idea why they took vect out of the book. I mean...he was the lord of the dark eldar....

Because there wasn't a model for him.

I mean, it's not like GW could just make a model or anything...

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark eldar really need to have the first turn...I have no idea why they took vect out of the book. I mean...he was the lord of the dark eldar....

Because there wasn't a model for him.

I mean, it's not like GW could just make a model or anything...

Yeah, you know instead of making Space Wolf sleighs no one wanted...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark eldar really need to have the first turn...I have no idea why they took vect out of the book. I mean...he was the lord of the dark eldar....

Because there wasn't a model for him.

I mean, it's not like GW could just make a model or anything...

Yeah, you know instead of making Space Wolf sleighs no one wanted...

Wasn't there a model for vect on his transport a while ago?

oz of the north wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dark eldar really need to have the first turn...I have no idea why they took vect out of the book. I mean...he was the lord of the dark eldar....

Because there wasn't a model for him.

I mean, it's not like GW could just make a model or anything...

Yeah, you know instead of making Space Wolf sleighs no one wanted...

Wasn't there a model for vect on his transport a while ago?

If there was then it was a looooong time ago. Before the Dark Eldar got their previous codex old.

The model was still available just a couple of years ago however, even though it was of ~1999 vintage.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The model was still available just a couple of years ago however, even though it was of ~1999 vintage.

He was not present in the ’99 catalog, but is in the ’00 one, so good guess on the age!

Martel732 wrote:Admittedly, it helps that we play with a lot of terrain. Just not much blocks LOS. But you don't need LOS blocking to shield yourself from pods.

We play with lots of LOS blocking terrain. It greatly equalizes things, and disadvantages models like wave serpents and gunlines that rely on long, unobstructed firing lanes for cheeseplay. It is literally impossible to do a 6" creep from a wave serpent line in 95% of our maps, because you wouldn't have any targets to shoot at. Mostly, though, we just play with terrain because it's cool -- not to mention, reflective of the real world.

Drop pods holding objectives has little to no support from common sense or fluff.

Troops dropping down and holding it themselves makes more sense.


Complaining about the storm bolter though just seems like grasping for - and making up - more 'issues' than there really are to validate a gripe.

Lack of scatter followed by mishap makes sense. These things are built to smash down out of orbit and slam into the ground - I doubt a few trees or rocks will cause issue.
Deep striking dark eldar aren't designed for that sort of punishment.


Most people just ignore the drop pods during the game - but that said, we don't play with the drop pod objective rule in use because that at least is dumb.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Lack of scatter followed by mishap makes sense. These things are built to smash down out of orbit and slam into the ground - I doubt a few trees or rocks will cause issue.
Deep striking dark eldar aren't designed for that sort of punishment.

Dark Eldar don't deep strike by smashing their stuff into the ground.

 vipoid wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Lack of scatter followed by mishap makes sense. These things are built to smash down out of orbit and slam into the ground - I doubt a few trees or rocks will cause issue.
Deep striking dark eldar aren't designed for that sort of punishment.

Dark Eldar don't deep strike by smashing their stuff into the ground.

That was my point... while drop pods are

But that's the thing - you say that drop pods should be better at surviving punishment (and I agree), but what are DE hitting?

Are they deliberately deep-striking to land an inch off the ground - such that any raised surface will obliterate them?

Oooh I see, sorry I misunderstood what you had said!

I get the impression that when they deep strike from orbit, their anti-grav system will work, but if something sharp or jagged with a small surface area is sticking up, the over-all pressure upon point will not be negated by the imaginary anti-gravity field and so will cause the craft to be speared

Difficult to explain, imagine trying to prevent something streamlined from moving - it'll take much more force/pressure applied to prevent it, especially if the rest of the craft acts like a lever continuing downwards around that point (imagining that the 'anti-gravity' starts to fold around the area). That's probably as clear as mud but it's the best I can think of to explain it.

Attempt 2:
Eh, difference between a man in a zorb landing on flat ground and bouncing, or landing on a sharp rock and popping - except the zorb is an invisible, made up forcefield and the inside edge is the hull of the craft?

 Wulfmar wrote:

Lack of scatter followed by mishap makes sense. These things are built to smash down out of orbit and slam into the ground - I doubt a few trees or rocks will cause issue.
Deep striking dark eldar aren't designed for that sort of punishment.

And yet tanks, designed for all terrain mobility, will throw a track on every 6th patch of boggy ground. Again, silly mechanics that everyone has to deal with, except space marines often dont.

Oh the tanks bit I think is daft, I don't disagree with you there on that one. You'd think a futuristic tank would have something other than WWI-era tracks

 TWilkins wrote:
Because from where I see it, Drop-Pods are extremely under-priced.

That's the thing though, I could take a drop pod for 60-70 points but then I'll just use a razorback which as a superior weapon base compared to either a storm bolter or deathwind missile launcher. The drop pod only can cap objectives if it is taken for a troop choice in maelstrom of war because of objective secure, and even then, only when using the basic FOC in the core rulebook; or if you build an unbound list in which case they can only hold the objective as long as the drop pod is not charged or destroyed. 35 points are fair because a drop pod is so limited in it's use. Effectively it's just a means of transporting troops then you forget it, objective secure is becoming less important since all codices are getting their own special FOCs and those armies are usually better off using their own FOCs.

At least in the case of tyranids the tyrannocite is a monstrous creature that can also have objective secured as well as being a monstrous creature. So at least the drop pod option for nids is actually useful after it delivers its payload.

35 points seems very fair in my opinion as someone who has played all available armies since 6th ed with the exception of Sisters.