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This is a personal issue I have always had with Drop Pods...
They can hold objectives in the new rules... They come with an inbuilt weapon... Have av12 all round... Makes mishap very difficult to occur... And Bs 4... For 35 points? No way.
They only have two 'equivalents' that I'm aware of... The tyranid spore which I don't know enough about to comment on... And the Dark Eldar Webway portal.
The Webway portal cannot hold objectives... It has no weapon, no armour... No ballistic skill... I can only take two at max in a single foc... And is essentially one use only. And on top of that I have to have an Archon to take them, which means the Archon has to go with the unit that travels and you have to pay 60 points for the Archon on top of the webway portal for 40 points.
So the only real advantage of the Webway portal over the Drop pod is that the Webway portal doesn't scatter and that the Webway portal has a 'transport capacity' of 21-ish being a unit of 20 plus the Archon and then any other IC's you stick in there.
I really don't think that those two advantages of the webway portal make it worth more than the Drop Pod. And the Dark Eldar are supposed to be a relatively low points cost army!!
The drop pod could easily be doubled in points cost for what you get. Fair enough it can't move... But it can shoot, control objectives, and has good armour all around. And even if it does scatter, the guys who get out have a 6" move to get into position anyway... It is far too cheap for what you are getting, and it's not like other armies get their equivalent? And to make things even worse, you can drop dreadnoughts as well.
If say Dark Eldar had a 35 point upgrade that gave a Talos Pain Engine deep strike, people would be calling cheese. Same if Wraithlords could deep strike... Or Cronos...
Now if that same 35 point upgrade had a gun, av12 all round, BS 4 and could hold objectives... People would be seriously peeved about it all.
I think that a drop-pod should be 60-70 points stock for what you're getting. Particularly because it is something that most army's have no equivalent in the slightest. Dark Eldar Vehicles can deep strike, and yes they have better weapons. But they have less armour, and will mishap much easier, and cannot transport a dreadnought.
Does anyone else agree with me here? Or am I being harsh on the Marine players? Or have I missed a rule out somewhere? Because from where I see it, Drop-Pods are extremely under-priced.

I don't think this rant belongs on a forum for rules interpretations. Perhaps the General Discussion or Proposed Rules board is what you're looking for.

 TWilkins wrote:
This is a personal issue I have always had with Drop Pods...
They can hold objectives in the new rules... They come with an inbuilt weapon... Have av12 all round... Makes mishap very difficult to occur... And Bs 4... For 35 points? No way.
They only have two 'equivalents' that I'm aware of... The tyranid spore which I don't know enough about to comment on... And the Dark Eldar Webway portal.
The Webway portal cannot hold objectives... It has no weapon, no armour... No ballistic skill... I can only take two at max in a single foc... And is essentially one use only. And on top of that I have to have an Archon to take them, which means the Archon has to go with the unit that travels and you have to pay 60 points for the Archon on top of the webway portal for 40 points.
So the only real advantage of the Webway portal over the Drop pod is that the Webway portal doesn't scatter and that the Webway portal has a 'transport capacity' of 21-ish being a unit of 20 plus the Archon and then any other IC's you stick in there.
I really don't think that those two advantages of the webway portal make it worth more than the Drop Pod. And the Dark Eldar are supposed to be a relatively low points cost army!!
The drop pod could easily be doubled in points cost for what you get. Fair enough it can't move... But it can shoot, control objectives, and has good armour all around. And even if it does scatter, the guys who get out have a 6" move to get into position anyway... It is far too cheap for what you are getting, and it's not like other armies get their equivalent? And to make things even worse, you can drop dreadnoughts as well.
If say Dark Eldar had a 35 point upgrade that gave a Talos Pain Engine deep strike, people would be calling cheese. Same if Wraithlords could deep strike... Or Cronos...
Now if that same 35 point upgrade had a gun, av12 all round, BS 4 and could hold objectives... People would be seriously peeved about it all.
I think that a drop-pod should be 60-70 points stock for what you're getting. Particularly because it is something that most army's have no equivalent in the slightest. Dark Eldar Vehicles can deep strike, and yes they have better weapons. But they have less armour, and will mishap much easier, and cannot transport a dreadnought.
Does anyone else agree with me here? Or am I being harsh on the Marine players? Or have I missed a rule out somewhere? Because from where I see it, Drop-Pods are extremely under-priced.

You are being harsh on the Marine players.

It has a stormbolter, which is fairly useless... 35 points is about right IMO.

Eh, I happen to somewhat agree that drop pods are amazing unit multipliers. It's not only that they're a cheap decent-armor immobilized vehicle that practically can't mishap, but that they take the problem of "how am I going to get this awesome close-range badass mofo to the enemy without getting killed first," and make that problem vanish. The better the unit, the more important the pod is. A fragioso, for example, or combat squad sternguard with combi's. They're amazing transports that totally bypass the part where the transport needs to survive to get the unit where it wants to be. They just auto-win at their job.

CSM would live to have drop pods.

 Filch wrote:
CSM would live to have drop pods.

M

Well they'd live longer or at least kill more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, my marines would trade DP for WWPs any day. You actually debunked your post in your post

 Filch wrote:
CSM would live to have drop pods.

Well CSM have a drop pods if you play with forgeworld rules. The problem is that the dreadclaw drop pod (that is it's name) costs 100 points and is generally inferier to the SM drop pod

The WWP can also transport ANY vehicle and can be taken on more than just an Archon. It is pretty brutal on a Dark Artisan. Not everything has the same value in every dex. The cost of the WWP reflects the fact it can deliver stuff like Fragons, Wraithcannons and D-Scythes into short range which all have better damage output to points than anything Marines or even Imperials can muster. The nearest Imps can get being Grav Cents.

Drop Pods are great and very strong for their points particularly if you're playing proper 7th in all its glory. Coukd they go up in points and still be useful. Sure to maybe 40, 45 absolute tops but they are certainly not a million miles away and you could say the same for any strong choice in any codex. It's not like the Wyvern which could be 100 points and still be worth it...

Yes. They are.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Eh, I happen to somewhat agree that drop pods are amazing unit multipliers. It's not only that they're a cheap decent-armor immobilized vehicle that practically can't mishap, but that they take the problem of "how am I going to get this awesome close-range badass mofo to the enemy without getting killed first," and make that problem vanish. The better the unit, the more important the pod is. A fragioso, for example, or combat squad sternguard with combi's. They're amazing transports that totally bypass the part where the transport needs to survive to get the unit where it wants to be. They just auto-win at their job.

Yeah that's what I find annoying. It allows you to take a unit, kit it out a certain way, which then has certain drawbacks. For example a squad with meltas or something similar. And then for 35 points you remove this drawback, and on top of that get a decent armour vehicle with the ability to hold objectives and shoot.
@DeathReaper I know the storm bolter isn't great, but still better than nothing. It's also cheap enough that the missile upgrade gun is easier to take because the whole thing only comes to like 55 points. If the base was 55 points it would mean the upgrade would become more difficult to take and would require more thinking about it. And even a storm bolter can wreck the back armour of a lot of vehicles.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The WWP can also transport ANY vehicle and can be taken on more than just an Archon. It is pretty brutal on a Dark Artisan. Not everything has the same value in every dex. The cost of the WWP reflects the fact it can deliver stuff like Fragons, Wraithcannons and D-Scythes into short range which all have better damage output to points than anything Marines or even Imperials can muster. The nearest Imps can get being Grav Cents.

Okay that is fair. Eldar battle brothers allow the webway portal to become insanely good.
Here's a scenario though...
A Webway portal with 5 wraithguard with D-Scythes come on turn two and land perfectly. They would kill a unit unless they had really bad luck with wound rolls. But they wouldn't make back the 310+ points the unit cost unless they hit something pretty hefty. And then next turn they would almost always be wiped out.
On the other hand, for probably less points you could get two dreadnaughts in my deployment zone on the first turn of the game. These are units which I'll have to hit with anti tank weapons, and with three hull points each I probably wont kill them all turn 1. Then turn two another drop pod can come down, plus any I didn't kill first turn, with the storm bolters doing their stuff as well and the rest of your army that I couldn't shoot at because I had a drop-pod in the way.

Essentially the drop pods change the game, allow you to pretty much always hit your target, behind tanks, onto objectives ect.
Not only this, but you get to do it on the first turn of the game.
And for 35 points for it, if it landed on an objective I would probably need to kill it. Now I have to fire anti-tank at it. Yes I could kill it in a turn with 4 haywire scourges. But that's 120 points that was completely wasted for a turn because I had to clear a 35 point drop pod out of the way. You could do that on two-three objectives and I'd have to dedicate my anti-tank to those instead of the predators which are destroying my tanks and just taking away all of my mobility.
That is the problem I have with it. They are so cheap, yet can accomplish so much more than they are worth, and just get in the way whilst the other things in your army shoot at me. They are an annoyance on their own that then has to be dealt with, along with the fact they brought something dangerous right up into my face possibly before I've even been able to move yet, and possibly getting behind all of my cover and doing a ton of damage that there was no way I could have done anything to stop.
If they came in on turn two, then they would still be a massive issue, but at least I had a turn to actually attack the stuff that was shooting at me on the other side of the board.
Personally even two squads of wraithguard/fire dragons wouldn't accomplish this.
Fire dragons will kill one tank, then be wiped out without a chance.
Wraithguard do have a chance at surviving a turn if you don't have much plasma or an equivalent. But it would probably take 2-3 turns for a unit of D-scythes to make their points back, in which time they're probably dead and as 1/5th of my army at 1500 points they didn't accomplish much. But two dreadnaughts in pods for a simular cost would probably take a turn or two of focus fire to get rid off, plus the drop pods, plus making me ignore any other tanks you bought.
Do you see where I am coming from?

I completely agree with this,

its the ability on turn one to drop 2 or 3 units of things that can utterly win the game in a turn.

Im a dark eldar player, and one of the lads in our group uses drop pods to the exlusion of anything else, first turn he drops a flamer dread, and two units of tac marines each with a libby, and flamers. up go my transports and the guys inside, whilst the libby shrieks at other targets.

Im then having to start nearly everyhting off the table, to combat this, which in maelstrom missions, can be a killer, and rely on reserve rolls.


so 5 35 point drop pods force me to completely change my plan, and offer massive damage potential, that i cant match.

on top of that, as has been mentioned, it can then sit there holding an objective (which i find to be nonsense in any case) which forces me to shoot the thing with dark lances that cost 10 points a pop (or 15 for blasters) of which i would need probably 10 to get rid of it!!!

way undercosted. should be around 50 points i think.

*Shrug*

They're just another SM unit that bypasses core rules that every other faction has to deal with.

It's a theme people just have to get used to.

well given that they cannot move, can instead can deeps trike, and in every way are "about on par with a rhino" I can see the logic behind the cost. I suppose it's a matter of "how much do you place on deep striking" value wise. and how much do you belvie not being able to move is a problem

Lord puberis wrote:
I completely agree with this,

its the ability on turn one to drop 2 or 3 units of things that can utterly win the game in a turn.

Im a dark eldar player, and one of the lads in our group uses drop pods to the exlusion of anything else, first turn he drops a flamer dread, and two units of tac marines each with a libby, and flamers. up go my transports and the guys inside, whilst the libby shrieks at other targets.

Im then having to start nearly everyhting off the table, to combat this, which in maelstrom missions, can be a killer, and rely on reserve rolls.


so 5 35 point drop pods force me to completely change my plan, and offer massive damage potential, that i cant match.

on top of that, as has been mentioned, it can then sit there holding an objective (which i find to be nonsense in any case) which forces me to shoot the thing with dark lances that cost 10 points a pop (or 15 for blasters) of which i would need probably 10 to get rid of it!!!

way undercosted. should be around 50 points i think.

Hmm, 50 points stock would be reasonable I guess.
And I feel that pain my friend. I'm starting dark eldar again soon and they're an army I just do not want to deal with. I've not played many games against space marines, but each time it has either been a lucky draw or I've lost, and this is against Eldar. (Maybe it's because I don't spam serpents? And that is the reason Eldar have been labelled the devils of 40k)

MarsNZ wrote:
*Shrug*

They're just another SM unit that bypasses core rules that every other faction has to deal with.

It's a theme people just have to get used to.

Unfortunately yes...

Ironically these are usually the first people to complain about Tau and Eldar.

They shouldn't be able to hold objectives, and either their AV or Hull Points could be dropped by one. I don't really mind them aside for those details.

there strong enough to survive dropping from orbit, entry at thousands of miles a hour penetrating atmosphere and generating intense heat.

having a ok AV does not sound too much of a push.

The fact that they can hold objectives is not an issue with the drop pods themselves, but an issue with the current rules allowing all dedicated transports to hold objectives.

I think they are fine at what they currently are and WWP is drastically better, especially when allied with Eldar. Going back to your situation with the wraith guard, put them in a WS with a farseer and an archon with the 2+ invun. try and get fortune, put archon in front for 2++ rerollable and then watch that unit evaporate any unit, out side of a tank, which can be taken out by WS.
Then trying to get drop pods on tank's back armor, put far back, so drop pods still need to scatter and if near board edge can roll off and mishap. Or if throwing a bunch of melta in there and scatter far away and they become less useful.

Also there are no units in SM outside of veterans/sternguard, do not play much that know proper names, that can bring multiple meltaguns and in those cases they are one use only and then they have bolters.

They can hold objectives, but armor 12 open top is not that hard to kill anything str 7 or higher can kill it with 1 shot.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The fact that they can hold objectives is not an issue with the drop pods themselves, but an issue with the current rules allowing all dedicated transports to hold objectives.

In the old rules, holding objectives only happened a the end of the game. This ignores that vehicles couldn't score.
Now though, (nearly) everyone scores, and it happens every turn. So, drop 3 pods on turn 1, take the 3 objectives the enemy holds, and contest or take them off them. score points from the start, and there's little the enemy can to about it.

35 points is too little for a guaranteed objective scorer.
It was about right in older versions.

Drop pods should probably cost more like 60 points.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Yes. They are.

Indeed.

They are objectively the best unit in the entire game; a league apart from everything else.

This so evidently true that I'm not sure a discussion even needs to take place. Everyone just accepts Drop Pods are horrifically under priced so there's no argument about it. It's like the one thing the internet can agree on.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The fact that they can hold objectives is not an issue with the drop pods themselves, but an issue with the current rules allowing all dedicated transports to hold objectives.

In the old rules, holding objectives only happened a the end of the game. This ignores that vehicles couldn't score.
Now though, (nearly) everyone scores, and it happens every turn. So, drop 3 pods on turn 1, take the 3 objectives the enemy holds, and contest or take them off them. score points from the start, and there's little the enemy can to about it.

35 points is too little for a guaranteed objective scorer.
It was about right in older versions.

You score every turn if you are playing maelstrom and in that case only if you drew/ rolled to hold that objective. Also if your opponent goes first and is holding the objective you both need they get the points and if the unit has objsec you have to kill the entire unit to claim the objective.

I can understand the complaints about drop pods, in particular their ability to hold an objective. A dedicated transport at least has a crew, unlike a drop pod.

The reason I can't really agree with a points cost increase (outside of maybe 45) is that they seem about the same value as rhinos, and rhinos are 35. The only way that a drop pod outperforms a rhino is the dreadnought delivery, hence my approval of a small increase.

A rhino can hold an objective, a rhino can deliver units to the other side of the board by turn 2, units can fire from inside a rhino and a librarian can shriek from the protection of a rhino. It's a drop of 1 point in armor, but dark eldar are still going to have to devote anti-armor to bringing it down. I tend to prefer rhinos honestly (against everyone but tau).

I find them meh. Drop pods necessarily peacemeal your enemy's army for you, unless they pay for extra pods.

The only drop lists I find really scary are SW followed by salamanders. Otherwise, I just find to be delivery systems for inefficient alpha strikes.

I would agree if the units drop pods were transporting weren't overpriced.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would agree if the units drop pods were transporting weren't overpriced.

This too.

I think the only thing that needs to be done to drop pods is to take away their ability to hold an objective. Give them a rule like "Unmanned - This Unit may not hold objectives". Done. Their price is fine because they are immobile.

In response to the post stating that they only earn points in maelstrom if the cards are drawn. this is true, but they also have value in at least one other mission.
the one you get a card for every objective you hold.
again, as a dark eldar player, i had null deployed, mostly (i had a DA on the board), we drew this mission, and he proceeded to drop his two pods onto two objectives, moved his two razor backs up onto another two and had an assasin hiding on a fifth.
Game over, i couldnt get enough firepower onto the pod, and the unit in the pod to kill them, giving him massive amounts of cards and therefore opportunities for points every turn.

Had i started everything on the board, i could have kissed goodbye to the majority of my troops, and probably a fair number of their transports, hence losing the game.
they dont have to score in order for it to be ridiculous that they can hold objectives. its frankly ridiculous that they can in the first place.

Again, that's an issue with the current scoring rules allowing everything to be a scoring unit, and not the drop pods themselves. I don't see anyone arguing in favor of raising the points on Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau transports that can quickly hop onto an objective turn 1 and just jink and ignore half of all incoming hits.

So the argument is that Drop Pods are to harsh on Dark Elder so their points should be increased, is that it?

well I think mindshackle scarabs are incredibly unfair and far to effective against my close combat heavies, how in the world should Logan, Draigo, and Lysander lose to some bargain basement Lord with mss. Should be a minimum 60pts upgrade.

Dont really like Wave Serpents either definitely need point increases.

The odds of a tactical marine with a melta gun making it across the table and getting off a meaningful shot is slim, yet it is a 10 point upgrade on an already 15 point marine.

The cost of the drop pod is mitigating by the higher costs found elsewhere in the codex.

As far as dreadnaught delivery, the dreadnaught is damn near dead how many marine players even use foot slogging dreadnaughts anymore.

On top of all this with careful deployments you can mitigate the arrival of drop pods by offering them lesser targets.