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 Vaktathi wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Divide and conquer. The maxim of every great General who has ever lived. Love how nobody even slightly picked up on the point I just made about pod players having to divide their army or go small number pods and thus risk stranding part of their army, aka... dividing their army.

GW has made reserves far less risky and far more reliable over the editions. The issue you're talking about isn't quite as critical as you're making it out to be barring some truly terrible rolls. You can pick and choose what comes in turn 1, a smart SM player will design their army around this, having their "kill" units come in early, and consolidation forces that nab objectives or clean up survivors come in later, and if they take a couple turns to come in, that's fine, often they may not even have anything to do until turn 3.

Quite often you'll have a drop pod situation like this, 2 Sternguard units with combi-weapons, and a tac squad in a pod, the sternguard units will come in turn 1, combat squad, put the hurt on 4 units, and the tac squad will come in later, usually turn 2, and help consolidate the flank that the Sternguard shot to pieces. Not much "divide and conquer" there unless the Sternguard completely putzed their alpha strike.

I've weathered so many Sternguard drops. Their firepower is a spit in the wind compared to Tau and Eldar. And then my assaulty BA get to suplex them all the next turn. I like the crunchy sound of 30+ pt meqs. The drop scheme is even worse now that I'm meching up more and more. Drop in and take out that Rhino hull! You sure showed me!

Not just Dark Eldar... Eldar, Tau, plenty of armies have no way to counter a drop pod spam. They are the only army can dominate the whole board on the first turn with Drop pods. Anyone else has to wait until turn two, other than turbo boosting Eldar Jetbikes, who then can't shoot, whereas a drop pod and its crew can.
And yeah a tactical marine might take ages to get across the board... The same as any other unit in the game who doesn't have a transport.
And it's a bit off-topic, but with a necron lord with mindshackle scarabs, don't go into combat with it, deal with it in other ways.
And yeah Wave Serpents get all the hate, and maybe the shield should be weakened a bit, but they only become insanely broken when some tfg takes as many of them as he can fit into a list. One or two isn't game breaking, and they are only av12 on the front and av10 on the back. I only use one, and have never had a single complaint about it.
On the other hand, for the price of 2 wave serpents, you could afford 6 drop pods. three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking.
And careful deployments barely mean anything, not when a Drop pod can go wherever it wants to, without a mishap chance, plus the 6-inch deployment move.

If you're considering a squad of Sternguard popping down 10 meltagun or up to 20 plasma shots in a turn, typically at optimal ranges and often from a choice of angles, "spit in the wind", I'm not going to buy that.

Compared to tri- or tetra- Riptide or 6+ WS? I'll take the one shot- and then dead STernguards every day of the week. I beat those lists a lot with the terrible 5th ed BA codex. The proof is in the pudding. I don't fear your overcosted Sternguard combi weapons. I fear sustained withering firepower I can't get off the table.

Martel732 wrote:
Compared to tri- or tetra- Riptide or 6+ WS? I'll take the one shot- and then dead STernguards every day of the week. I beat those lists a lot with the terrible 5th ed BA codex. The proof is in the pudding. I don't fear your overcosted Sternguard combi weapons.

Triptide's aren't dumping that kind of firepower by themselves in the enemy's backfield on turn 1.

In fact, the big thing with Riptides isn't even necessarily their firepower, it's that they are just too damn hard to kill.

Wave Serpents likewise, while overpowered, aren't going to put up to 10 meltaguns at two different targets (possibly at side or rear arcs) and likely at optimal melta range, on turn 1. They're another issue of its not simply firepower, but absurd survivability as well.

I fear sustained withering firepower I can't get off the table.

Which is a very different argument than calling such firepower "spit in the wind". Having seen a couple of Sternguard squads clear flanks of armor in a single round of shooting more than once, they're very potent units, and if dismissing that capability, you're going to lose games. It's *very* powerful. Yes it's only a one-turn thing, but I've seen that win games by itself on more than one occasion, and against experienced, capable players as well.

Is it the single most overpowered thing in the game? No, but to just dismiss it because it's not so, despite how capable it might otherwise be, is absurd.

I dismiss it because I've seen it so many times, and my set up reactions to it are automatic now. So many games against Sternguard drops and SW drop. SW drops are much worse because you just can't wipe them up with counter-assaults.

No one ever gets side or rear armor that I don't give them. They get to shoot what I want them to shoot, and nothing else. Also, the melta drop has been kicked a bit with the new vehicle table. There is no way I'd pay 300+ to drop 10 melta shots. No way. It's not going to pay off, except in extreme circumstances.

Marine players keep thinking that throwing away 30+ meqs is a grand strategy. Fine by me. I'll keep chewing them up. I'll be watching out for the Tiggystar; that can melt my face. Over. And over. And over. Until I manage to neutralize it.


" in the enemy's backfield"

Who lets drop pods in their backfield on turn 1? No one I play.

" three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking. "

If only that were true. In practice, it's a good way to get a lot of marines killed really quickly.

TWilkins wrote: three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking. 

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that. He had me laughing at Tau not having an answer to DPs but this had me in stitches.

The last game of 40k I played my opponent had 3 DPs arrive and he had the Stormraven formation from WD that allowed him to assault the turn he arrived (i.e. turn 1 assault). I tabled him by simply castling in a corner and denying his alphastrike and real targets (I was using a Nid army I put together out of 2 Deathstorms so had Genestealers and warriors in it!)

3 DPs is not game breaking unless you're talking about a 600 point game. At 1850 any DP list I write would have 13-15 DPs in it with 7-8 arriving turn 1. Even that is not game breaking. Tough sure but not game breaking in any way.

I personally like one drop fragnought. Opponents won't set up against it, and so it actually gets to do its job. And it soaks anti-tank fire most of the time.

Yeah, DP lists are way more powerful than Thunderwolves, Waveserpents, Riptides, Imperial Knights, summoning Chaos, AM blobs, coven, Gun line Eldar or Tau, Farsight bomb, beast packs, WS bikes, Cron air and consistently beat all these lists.

Or they don't and you guys need to figure out how to handle a list type that more or less runs the same way it always has. Get out of your cloistered meta, or if you don't, at least be savy enough to understand the actual game balance as it compares to your sheltered club. Come on. Really? What's next, wyches and Rough Riders are OP?

Silly thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darkness Eternal. I apologize that Dakka can't read sarcasm. Do you play TitanFall. There's a player with your tag that I run into all the time.

 FlingitNow wrote:

3 DPs is not game breaking unless you're talking about a 600 point game. At 1850 any DP list I write would have 13-15 DPs in it with 7-8 arriving turn 1. Even that is not game breaking. Tough sure but not game breaking in any way.

I'm talking about it from my own experience with the armies that I use.
With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them.
With the Dark Eldar army I am starting, with the unit's I am currently looking at getting, I wouldn't be able to deal with this either.

I'll try with an analogy...
35 points for an av12 open topped fortification that can hold objectives and has a storm bolter... From my point of view that is under priced on its own. I'd say more like 40-50 points.
Then allow it to deep strike and only mishap if it goes off of the table, which is barely ever going to happen. And then make it a dedicated transport... It's a constant build up of rules that are making it better, but it's not getting any more expensive.

I'm not saying that it's an op transport that should have a complete rules-rewrite, I'm saying it should cost about 60 odd points so that when a Marine player looks in his codex and says 'My army are pretty slow' it's not so easy to go 'Oh I'll ignore that weakness and put them in a drop pod for 35 points'
If a drop pod was about 60 points, then a player would have to make compromises and using a drop-pod would have benefits and drawbacks. "If I use a drop pod, I get into the enemy deployment zone much quicker, but I then can't afford as many upgrades."
That way it actually becomes a tactical decision like every other army have to make when they are choosing units (And I'm ignoring spam lists when I say this. A spam list is just a way of saying 'I want to win without needing luck or skill' I don't use spam lists and I don't play against them if I can help it.)

For example with Eldar or Dark eldar, every upgrade and unit you take has strengths and flaws. If you take a unit of scourges with haywire blasters, you'll destroy vehicles, but you'll do nothing against infantry. And having lots of splinter cannons is great, but if my opponent hides in tanks then you can't do a thing with them.
And 5 fire dragons will destroy vehicles and teq and meq, but with a 4+ save that's a fragile unit and you need to get them across the board safely to get within 12" range; which is tough to do with a unit that most people will look at once and say 'oh I'll need to bring that down pretty quickly'. On top of that, you're then spending more points to get them across the board safely, whether it's a serpent or a falcon or a distraction mob or whatever.
Marines seems to be more like: "I'll buy some meltas. They've got a good save. Oh they're slow. It doesn't matter I'll spend 35 points and drop them behind a fire prism/Hammerhead/ravenger/monolith/land raider first turn and they'll probably make their points back."
Seems like Marines have a free pass...

"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

 FlingitNow wrote:

TWilkins wrote: three drop pods on turn one would be game breaking. 

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that. He had me laughing at Tau not having an answer to DPs but this had me in stitches.

The last game of 40k I played my opponent had 3 DPs arrive and he had the Stormraven formation from WD that allowed him to assault the turn he arrived (i.e. turn 1 assault). I tabled him by simply castling in a corner and denying his alphastrike and real targets (I was using a Nid army I put together out of 2 Deathstorms so had Genestealers and warriors in it!)

3 DPs is not game breaking unless you're talking about a 600 point game. At 1850 any DP list I write would have 13-15 DPs in it with 7-8 arriving turn 1. Even that is not game breaking. Tough sure but not game breaking in any way.

We have tried this exact setup, and holing up in a corner is a terrible idea. The BA player can grab all of the objectives, and then you blow with drop pods, and then you blow two turns just running around like an idiot trying to get rid of them... And your army is super far away from half the objectives. If you have a heavy LOS blocking map, you can't even shoot at some if the objective-claiming drop pods until T3. With the stormravens being so physically large (and a flyer), the BA player has an advantage just denying objectives if the Tyranid player starts off far from them.

Secondly, you guarantee that the BA player is going to crush with blasts, templates, grenades. Remember those stormravens are nasty against ground units. And finally, you have the problem that if you fail leadership rolls and your opponent is clever in assault, you can actually lose whole units (nowhere to flee).

I think the best answer to Angel's Fury is Flyrants. No matter what, you have to deal with 3 flyers that are quite damaging, and all the carnifexes in the world won't do jack.

Also, we have found that the higher the point level of the game, the greater the advantage of Angel's Fury and drop pods. The T1 alpha charge is especially good if you have 2500, 3000, or 3500 points to work with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

I guess that depends on what "my Eldar" are Could be 1500 points of Guardians!

no drop pods are costed right for what they do, av 12 isnt that hard to crack, compared to simliar pts levels, the eldar skimmers with TL lance weapons from forge world, artillary carriges from FW, and so on and so forth are much better for the pts, as are many many units.

drop pods are the iconic space marine thing, they are what is supposed to be good about SM's.

iconic things for armies are cheaper for those armies, necrons dont pay much if anything for their RP rolls, eldar underpay for all their skimmers, tau underpay for lots of shooty stuff, orks underpay for their choppy troops, guard underpay for their shooty stuff, and so on and so forth.

every army should have a couple things it does well/pays less for while having to pay more for other things.

as it is, drop pods are off set by expensive but still fragile troops, and they are very much a one shot pony


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to hear an ELDAR player complain about OP dedicated transports is laughable....

excuse me while I have a hearty laugh at the OP eldar player complaining about someone elses dedicated transport.

AHARHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will... eldar get super powerfull and cheap DT's, shootyness, CC, psychic powers... Im missing the thing they are supposed the be bad at....

Martel732 wrote:
"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

So is claiming Tau are ridiculously overpowered and should get nerfed when your only experience in fighting them is on a table which is basically devoid of terrain.

No offence but with how your boards are set up, any of your anecdotes about how well units perform is pretty much moot as most other people understand that terrain of various shapes and sizes is what allows this to be a tactical game.

TWilkins basically you've said "I can't deal with DPs so they need to near double in points". You also talk about the streamlined nature of Eldar units as if it were a weakness. In a strategy game where you have omniscience of the field and mobility freedom specialist units are universally better than generalists.

You claim an AV12 building with open topped and a storm bolter would be 45-50 points. But that is firstly an incorrect analogy as you can stay safe in a building (you can't in a DP) where as a bunker an AV14 all round building costs 55 points. So an open topped build you could stay in with AV12 would be in the region of 25-30 a storm bolter is worth about 5 so 30-35 sounds about right. You give up the ability to stay safe in your building (the main reason to take them) to gain safe DS ability that's about a fairtrade off.

Lets look at other similar units. The Nid one is 75 points. However it can move (a huge benefit compare points of a Bastion to a Landraider) has 6 wounds compared to 3 HPs, fights back in combat and has 15 S5 shots compared to 2 S4 ones. All in all they compare point for point quite well.

Over all yes DPs are good. No they are not hugely undercosted. No marines are not a great army and no they don't get it all their own way. They have some decent tanks (nothing as good as a Wave Serpent) some good flyers (nothing as good as a Nightscythe) but what they do have that is great are Beat stick bike characters, a strong bike army, Centurions and Drop Pods. That's about all you see at a competitive level, given that marines (in one form or another) are about half the field do we really need to hamper their iconic build? Really?

 easysauce wrote:

serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will...

Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents. They are both excellent things which are quite a problem for every opponent.

They do different things, but they are both at the same scale of "take a bunch of these to win" levels.

Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying.

They are simply the best transport (as in thing you put other guys into to get them somewhere they will be more useful) in the game and they cost less than 2-3 men worth of points, while Wave Serpents are gunships that happen to transport guys (but let's be honest, those guys are just a tax to buy a gunship).

We have tried this exact setup, and holing up in a corner is a terrible idea. The BA player can grab all of the objectives, and then you blow with drop pods, and then you blow two turns just running around like an idiot trying to get rid of them... And your army is super far away from half the objectives. If you have a heavy LOS blocking map, you can't even shoot at some if the objective-claiming drop pods until T3. With the stormravens being so physically large (and a flyer), the BA player has an advantage just denying objectives if the Tyranid player starts off far from them. 

Secondly, you guarantee that the BA player is going to crush with blasts, templates, grenades. Remember those stormravens are nasty against ground units. And finally, you have the problem that if you fail leadership rolls and your opponent is clever in assault, you can actually lose whole units (nowhere to flee). 

I think the best answer to Angel's Fury is Flyrants. No matter what, you have to deal with 3 flyers that are quite damaging, and all the carnifexes in the world won't do jack. 

Also, we have found that the higher the point level of the game, the greater the advantage of Angel's Fury and drop pods. The T1 alpha charge is especially good if you have 2500, 3000, or 3500 points to work with. 

Well it wasn't a terrible idea as I tabled my opponent with a Nid list that had 2 units of Warriors and 2 Units of Genestealers in it (illustrating it is a more fun than competitive list). He's invested more than half his army in the Formation making it reliant on that Alphastrike. Denying him that won me the game. Castling isn't always the best call against all DP armies or even all alphastriking armies but it and bubble wrap are good tools to use in the right situation.

The point is countering 3 or 4 DPs is pretty easy and possible with any codex even the much lamented Nid dex. That DPs are not OP and game breaking. The can be part of VERY effective lists and are a good tool to help an army that is hamstrung by its generalist nature. Yes you can build a top tier list with DPs however you can also build many SM top tier lists without them. They are not an auto include and do come with counters and down sides.

I have been saying this for years, drop pods are too cheap and it changes the game in some unfair ways.

Movement, and the ability to get up the board, is a big deal, moreso than ever since 6th edition. Being able to drop your toughest units in an opponent's backfield is a big deal.

I won't usually walk away from a game, but there was a Space Wolves player I would never fight again because he did drops with Long Fangs and Razorback spam. There was always an alpha strike going on and it just became the same game over and over.

 Lobukia wrote:
Yeah, DP lists are way more powerful than Thunderwolves, Waveserpents, Riptides, Imperial Knights, summoning Chaos, AM blobs, coven, Gun line Eldar or Tau, Farsight bomb, beast packs, WS bikes, Cron air and consistently beat all these lists.

Or they don't and you guys need to figure out how to handle a list type that more or less runs the same way it always has. Get out of your cloistered meta, or if you don't, at least be savy enough to understand the actual game balance as it compares to your sheltered club. Come on. Really? What's next, wyches and Rough Riders are OP?

Silly thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darkness Eternal. I apologize that Dakka can't read sarcasm. Do you play TitanFall. There's a player with your tag that I run into all the time.

You're missing my point completely. I'm not saying that drop pod lists are the most powerful things ever created. I'm saying that a single drop pod is worth a lot more than it costs.
And there's no need to be so condescending regarding Meta, believe me I wish I could play against more people. But I can't. So I make do.
And I understand game balance very well. And I understand that having an instant deep strike turn one with almost no chance of mishap and no need to roll for reserves is unbalanced. It ignores the reserves rule, the risks of deep striking, the need to roll for reserves and all for a measly 35 points.

Martel732 wrote:
"With my Eldar, at 1500 points, I would not be equipped to deal with three drop pods on turn one, plus the stuff that comes out of them. "

That's kind of unbelievable.

Well at 1500 points with my usual list I'd probably have a guardian bright lance, wraithlord bright lance, possibly war walker lances and possibly storm guardian fusion guns. That's not reliable to clear off 3 av12 with probably 2-3 hull points each in one turn. Especially considering there is also predators/rhinos ect on the other side of the board shooting at me.

Talys wrote:


I guess that depends on what "my Eldar" are Could be 1500 points of Guardians!

Indeed

 easysauce wrote:
no drop pods are costed right for what they do, av 12 isnt that hard to crack, compared to simliar pts levels, the eldar skimmers with TL lance weapons from forge world, artillary carriges from FW, and so on and so forth are much better for the pts, as are many many units.

drop pods are the iconic space marine thing, they are what is supposed to be good about SM's.

iconic things for armies are cheaper for those armies, necrons dont pay much if anything for their RP rolls, eldar underpay for all their skimmers, tau underpay for lots of shooty stuff, orks underpay for their choppy troops, guard underpay for their shooty stuff, and so on and so forth.

every army should have a couple things it does well/pays less for while having to pay more for other things.

as it is, drop pods are off set by expensive but still fragile troops, and they are very much a one shot pony


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to hear an ELDAR player complain about OP dedicated transports is laughable....

excuse me while I have a hearty laugh at the OP eldar player complaining about someone elses dedicated transport.

AHARHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

serioulsy, there are things called wave serpants that break the DT slot far more then drop pods ever will... eldar get super powerfull and cheap DT's, shootyness, CC, psychic powers... Im missing the thing they are supposed the be bad at....

First, I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge that most of forge worlds point costs are completely ridiculous.
And I believe the 'iconic' space marine thing is their ability to do pretty much anything. They only thing I can think of that they cannot bring to the table is a Monstrous creature. Good psykers, T4 sv3+. units with 3+ invulnerable saves, plenty of high strength weapons... ect.

And yes I play Eldar. I've played them for 8 years straight and I own one wave serpent, which to be completely honest has never done anything much for me other than getting a unit from one place to another.
Yes people all say the wave serpent is over powered. But that doesn't change my point that a drop pod is ridiculously cheap. Lets switch the tables around. You can have my wave serpents, and I'll take two drop pods. I bet whatever I did with them would be considered overpowered.
And to answer your question... Eldar are supposed to be an unforgiving army. If you make mistakes you pay for it. Most things have 4+ saves, we rely on cover and our close combat is hardly 'super powerful'. I would happily and gladly ditch my serpent shield and replace it with some form of assault vehicle that lets banshees get a chance again. Maybe something like this will pop up with all the harlequin rumours that are flying around?

I wish people would stop looking at TFG with his wave serpent spam and just paint every Eldar player with the same brush.

 FlingitNow wrote:
TWilkins basically you've said "I can't deal with DPs so they need to near double in points". You also talk about the streamlined nature of Eldar units as if it were a weakness. In a strategy game where you have omniscience of the field and mobility freedom specialist units are universally better than generalists.

You claim an AV12 building with open topped and a storm bolter would be 45-50 points. But that is firstly an incorrect analogy as you can stay safe in a building (you can't in a DP) where as a bunker an AV14 all round building costs 55 points. So an open topped build you could stay in with AV12 would be in the region of 25-30 a storm bolter is worth about 5 so 30-35 sounds about right. You give up the ability to stay safe in your building (the main reason to take them) to gain safe DS ability that's about a fairtrade off.

Lets look at other similar units. The Nid one is 75 points. However it can move (a huge benefit compare points of a Bastion to a Landraider) has 6 wounds compared to 3 HPs, fights back in combat and has 15 S5 shots compared to 2 S4 ones. All in all they compare point for point quite well.

Over all yes DPs are good. No they are not hugely undercosted. No marines are not a great army and no they don't get it all their own way. They have some decent tanks (nothing as good as a Wave Serpent) some good flyers (nothing as good as a Nightscythe) but what they do have that is great are Beat stick bike characters, a strong bike army, Centurions and Drop Pods. That's about all you see at a competitive level, given that marines (in one form or another) are about half the field do we really need to hamper their iconic build? Really?

That's not what I have been trying to get at. Most armies will struggle when they get hit by three drop pods turn one. And the streamline nature is both a strength and a weakness. If an Eldar army looses its anti-tank then usually other things will struggle to fill that role, but with space marines they can hit things with different purpose.

And I will apologise, I thought the av14 bastion was 75 points.

It's not about hampering their iconic build, it's about making them less game-changing. If they had to roll for their drop pods then i'd be less annoyed. Or if they came in like any other reserves. Or if they could scatter. But they don't do any of that. It forces you to play the game 'their way'.

If I field say two wave serpents. It probably wont change your play style at all. Maybe you'll target them first because everyone apparently shudders at the thought of one.
If you field six drop pods, you will completely change the way I play. I'll be on the defensive from the start and turn one, two and most likely three, i'll be trying to clear my own board edge rather than attacking yours.

And also, fair point about the tyranid spore. But seeing as it has a toughness value it can be insta-killed and tarpitted. And plus on a whole tyranids are cheaper than space marines anyway.

 DarknessEternal wrote:


Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying.

Very true.

"Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents."

Wow.

droppods are part of what makes Marines Marines. Marines are all about dropping in and hitting a weak spot with high precision firepower. thats basicly one of the over arching THEMES of the Marine. it'd be like complaining that Guards are OP cause they can blob

"Well at 1500 points with my usual list I'd probably have a guardian bright lance, wraithlord bright lance, possibly war walker lances and possibly storm guardian fusion guns. That's not reliable to clear off 3 av12 with probably 2-3 hull points each in one turn. Especially considering there is also predators/rhinos ect on the other side of the board shooting at me. "

You don't have to kill them immediately. The drop pods can't hurt you. Kill all the marines that come out of them and then mop up the pods when you are moping up his tac squads. You know, the phase of the game after you have eliminated all marine models that can hurt you.

BrianDavion wrote:
droppods are part of what makes Marines Marines. Marines are all about dropping in and hitting a weak spot with high precision firepower. thats basicly one of the over arching THEMES of the Marine. it'd be like complaining that Guards are OP cause they can blob

I'd agree with you... If they didn't also have strong vehicles, foot units, artillery, bikes, terminators...
They have so many different ways they can play a game. Drop pods are just one of the alternatives.

Marines have weak vehicles and terminators are terrible. Yes, the TFC is nice, and bikers are very nice, but there is a lot more bad units in the marine codex than good ones. That's why you see the good ones over and over.

So what you mean is they have a few ways to win the game and a ton of ways to lose.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly. The WS is perhaps the best model in the game. It's certainly in the running. I've seen drop pods back fire way too many times to even consider them more than "good".

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly. The WS is perhaps the best model in the game. It's certainly in the running. I've seen drop pods back fire way too many times to even consider them more than "good".

I'm not sure that I've met anyone who plays 40k even semi-competitively who argues that Wave Serpents aren't the best DT in the game, and I'm not certain that I've met even one player who wouldn't say "Wave Serpent" if asked what the most abusable unit is in 40k.

DPs are not nearly as *flexible* units as WS. I mean, it's not even remotely close. Plus, as you say, you can frag up DPs in an epic way. OTOH, a half dozen Wave Serpents take virtually no skill to play.

Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying. 

Lol then why pray tell do most tournament winning mqrine lists not include any drop pods? I've run many different types of marine lists in my life and most haven't included drop pods.

Lets compare look at any Tournament placing Eldar list and I can near Guarantee it will have 4+ Wave Serpents in it. That tells you something about the Serpent. Compare with similar Marine lists and over half won't have a single DP in them.

Yes DPs change the game, that's the point of them and they can give you free reign of the field and can give you board control. That is literally their point, it is why they exist. Can they be countered? Yes and often fairly easily. Do they force you to split your force and/or show your hand turn 1? Again yes.

Are they massively undercosted? Nope. Are they something that desperately needs fixing? Again not at all. The idea that a drop pod that can't move has 3 HPs and 2 S4 shots in a generalist army should be only 15 points less than a drop pod that can move, fight in assault (at Ap2), has 6 wounds, 15 S5 shots and is in a more specialist army is frankly laughable.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop Pods are exactly as powerful as Wave Serpents.

Yep, you are correct.

You are completely incorrect. In fact, the way many marine players use them, they are a hindrance. They are a good way to get a lot of expensive marines killed VERY quickly. The WS is perhaps the best model in the game. It's certainly in the running. I've seen drop pods back fire way too many times to even consider them more than "good".

yup the thing about things like wave serpents is that they are ALWAYS going to be good, you will never ever not want/need a highly durable highly mobile scoring powerful firebase that has ignores cover and twin linked bs4.

drop pods can often not help at all, or even be a hindrance to you in a lot of match ups where you want to stay far away ect

that being said, they are good, but not OP good.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ask any player of any army if they'd use Drop Pods if they were in they're army and they wanted to win the game. Anyone who says no would be lying. 

Lol then why pray tell do most tournament winning mqrine lists not include any drop pods? I've run many different types of marine lists in my life and most haven't included drop pods.

Lets compare look at any Tournament placing Eldar list and I can near Guarantee it will have 4+ Wave Serpents in it. That tells you something about the Serpent. Compare with similar Marine lists and over half won't have a single DP in them.

Yes DPs change the game, that's the point of them and they can give you free reign of the field and can give you board control. That is literally their point, it is why they exist. Can they be countered? Yes and often fairly easily. Do they force you to split your force and/or show your hand turn 1? Again yes.

Are they massively undercosted? Nope. Are they something that desperately needs fixing? Again not at all. The idea that a drop pod that can't move has 3 HPs and 2 S4 shots in a generalist army should be only 15 points less than a drop pod that can move, fight in assault (at Ap2), has 6 wounds, 15 S5 shots and is in a more specialist army is frankly laughable.

Except it's not about their immobility or firepower.

It's about their ability to deliver any infantry unit to exactly where it needs to be, in almost perfect safety, often exactly when it wants to be there, and to do it before an opponent can really do anything about it aside from hoping bubble-wrap works.

They really are very cheap for that capability, to say nothing of being able to block movement, control objectives, etc.

Out of the last...probably three of four years and playing in multiple different cities hundreds of miles apart, playing largely on a weekly basis, I think only two SM players I've faced did not routinely run drop pods, and one of those was an all biker army.


As for Tournament placing Eldar and Tournament placing SM armies, the top SM list at the Nova Open had 6 drop pods IIRC, the top Eldar list had 5 or 6 WS's, but the 2nd top Eldar list (and 3rd overall) only had 2, and the 7th overall place Eldar list had none.