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Good bubblewrapping and usage of terrain can completely shut down a melta drop strategy and neuter a plasma drop. I know, because I have a lot of practice against SW. Of course, then they kill you in HTH when you assault them, so that's why they are the primary drop list I fear.

I am a big fan of Imperial Fist drop pods with close range bolter drill, so many twin linked rapid fire bolters. Wish they had access to heavy flamers.

Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

I run them with grav gun/heavy bolter or melta/ multi melta find it to be a great jack of all trade unit coming out of a pod.

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

You will notice I said a rapid firing bolter is almost as good. Yes they can't assault after but they still get 2 shots and with Fists it's still twin linked.

16 twin linked str 4 shots is a threat to any normal infantry.

valace2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

You will notice I said a rapid firing bolter is almost as good. Yes they can't assault after but they still get 2 shots and with Fists it's still twin linked.

16 twin linked str 4 shots is a threat to any normal infantry.

You're right, especially when cover is easily obtained and we have the privilege of AP5. Wrong thread, but this was discussed elsewhere as to why Bolters are pretty bad weapons.

valace2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

Except Storm Bolters are a 24" Assault 2 weapon, so NO, regular Bolters aren't even close to being as good.

You will notice I said a rapid firing bolter is almost as good. Yes they can't assault after but they still get 2 shots and with Fists it's still twin linked.

16 twin linked str 4 shots is a threat to any normal infantry.

No, it really isn't. And you are paying a lot of points to accomplish nothing. You are also making the HUGE assumption there exists targetable "normal" infantry in your opponent's list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? They're bolters. Clinically proven to do jack and nothing without Sternguard ammo.

At close range with rerolls to hit bolters can be quite affective.

Most of the knock against bolters is that you have to be within rapid fire range to truly get the most out of them.

A rapid firing bolter is damn near as good as a storm bolter and people praise grey knights for having army wide access to them.

I run them with grav gun/heavy bolter or melta/ multi melta find it to be a great jack of all trade unit coming out of a pod.

Too bad this game punishes jack of all trades units very harshly.

In response to the point about mind shackle scarabs, you are using an example from a codex that is now seriously out of date and will probably be changed in the coming codex.
As for wave serpents. They are widely lauded as heavily op and a lot of arguments are made that they are the single most poorly costed unit in the game.
And it's not just dark eldar is it? Orks struggle against them with their open topped transports.

It's just that my experience is as a dark eldar player, and as this is a forum, my opinion and experience is valid.

You need to take advantage of the fact that the player using drop pods is committing their forces early an often irrevocably. Initial army set up is key against drop forces, as you can often force pods into very sub-optimal places.

And there's always the good news that most marine shooting is overpriced and therefore ineffective in the scheme of things.

Orks have no excuse not to effectively bubblewrap. I do it with BA, Orks can do it four times better.

Drop Pods are so unbelievably broken and OP that the Tournament scene is awash with nothing but DP armies. I mean all the big tournaments are always won by DP armies. Oh wait no they are not.

DPs are fine. They are a good choice and you can make a strong DP army. But marines are massive generalists which hurts them in so many ways lets let them have this one decent tactic shall we? I mean with out DPs dreads are completely pointless (and only really effective if spammed with them, no competent player is remotely worried by 2 Dreads in drop pods). Even then if you're against Tau those DPs just become coffins (as the DP will largely remain unharmed as the contents are wiped on interceptor).

Seriously I can't even believe this is a discussion.

I think there are too many inbred metas where players aren't exposed with how to deal with them. I had to learn in 5th because SW players relentlessly dropped the damn things all over the place.

I find the concept that a 3 year old codex is seriously out of date as laughable considering the gap in between their latest codex and the one before it, and more so with the gap in Tau codices.

Yes I noticed a thread called bolters are crap or some such thing but didn't bother to read it. Yes bolters are not the God like weapons you find in the fluff, in case you haven't noticed the typical game doesn't include 2000 orks to 100 marines either. In terms of game play you can't have basic marines killing avatars and greater daemons.

I stand by my statement that Imperial Fists with bolters coming out of drops pods aren't that bad. The shame of it is the only way people want to play them is with sternguard loaded down with melta and that's a shame.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would agree if the units drop pods were transporting weren't overpriced.

This too.

No, just this. The Drop pod is actually quite a hilariously powerful transport if it was available basically everything BUT power armor units.
The fact that the drop pod is so cheap is really only due to the fact that it would cause an already over costed unit to become grossly over costed. Anyone who nerd rage and quake in fear against a list with horrible dreads, horrible tactical marines, 300+ points melta units, costly command squads, all of which is incapable of alpha striking against any Daemons, formation Tyranids, WS/knight list, tau list or any other list with proper bubble wrap, really need to reevaluate their list and skills as a plastic toy general.

Yah but when you put IG special weapon squads or vets in them you see how broken they are...Still though they make everything you put in them shine.

valace2 wrote:
I find the concept that a 3 year old codex is seriously out of date as laughable considering the gap in between their latest codex and the one before it, and more so with the gap in Tau codices.

Yes I noticed a thread called bolters are crap or some such thing but didn't bother to read it. Yes bolters are not the God like weapons you find in the fluff, in case you haven't noticed the typical game doesn't include 2000 orks to 100 marines either. In terms of game play you can't have basic marines killing avatars and greater daemons.

I stand by my statement that Imperial Fists with bolters coming out of drops pods aren't that bad. The shame of it is the only way people want to play them is with sternguard loaded down with melta and that's a shame.

Your loss, then. Bolters are bad. I've shown other marine generals this over and over and over. Now, the grav toys the standard marines get are lethal as hell. And why my BA are marines -1 in their now codex.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Yah but when you put IG special weapon squads or vets in them you see how broken they are...Still though they make everything you put in them shine.

Not exactly, as per my above statement. What they do is force the general to commit to an alpha strike. If the alpha doesn't do enough damage, there is no fall back position.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I don't see anyone arguing in favor of raising the points on Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau transports that can quickly hop onto an objective turn 1 and just jink and ignore half of all incoming hits.

You don't? Is this your first day on the internet? There's seven threads about that on the first page of this forum.

Also, those of you asserting Tactical Marines being overpriced are laughable, but we already have that thread too.

If drop pods all arrived T1 they would be MASSIVELY underpriced. But as it is, half your drop pods are in reserve, which if going drop pod heavy, allows the marine opponent to focus on one part of the marine army at once. That is huge.
This is why many marine players pay a tax to take extra drop pod units they wouldn't take otherwise, or even empty pods for TFCs and devs.
It definitely balances out tactically.
Also marine players need a way to get that 32pt combi-sternguard model to the opponents unit. As if he is shot down it is a huge points cost. Whereas a AM vet with melta is 16pts (half the cost), has more than 1 shot and has a squad with usually 7 6pt vets who can take the wounds for him (compared to the 22pt sternguard taking a wound). Due to their high cost SM need a cheap way to be delivered.
Also remember, once they are down, they are slow ass infantry units.
Lastly, if taking a full pod army, you suffer from only having half your army as mentioned above. Whilst if you take less than 5 pods, you risk stranding your pod squads unsupported. At first glance they look amazing, but when you really consider the tactical situation behind them, you will see glaring drawbacks.

The lists I fear the most usually start with max firepower on the board and just don't let up the entire game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I don't see anyone arguing in favor of raising the points on Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau transports that can quickly hop onto an objective turn 1 and just jink and ignore half of all incoming hits.

You don't? Is this your first day on the internet? There's seven threads about that on the first page of this forum.

It would seem that, in your rush to edit my post to make a pointlessly snarky comment, you completely missed the point I was making. I'll give you a hint: it's in the part you cut out.

Drop Pods are admittedly very cheap for what they do.

Risk free (barring board edge) deep striking that very often increases scatter accuracy is probably worth 35pts at *least* in and of itself for most units, to say nothing of being able to come on turn 1 with some of them.

Getting an AV12 tower that can hold objectives and blocking movement on top of that makes the bargain even more hilarious.

They could certainly do with bit of a price hike.

That said, unfortunately there's a number of other things that need such attention before drop pods do.

DP are under cost without a doubt. It being the same cost as a rhino? really? its way better than a rhino. It cant move? oh well that doesnt matter when you can place it wherever you want without worrying about a mishap. Tau would be the only army that can honestly counter a DP list without worry.

I counter them all the time.

Martel732 wrote:
I counter them all the time.

How would you counter them if they have the first turn and 2 orbital bombardments coming in turn 1? Put everything in reserve?

Yep, as do the majority of experienced guard players, easily.

Every army can counter a DP list, yes Tau do it best but Interceptor is not the only way to counter DPs. A DP is not better than a Rhino. It is just different. A DP does its work in 1 turn and then sits there not achieving much unless it is on a relevant objective. The Rhino can manoeuvre every turn ferry multiple units and take more advantage of cover. It can also be used to block units to help sniping or protect other units from return fire.

Drop Pods are good and are good for their points. But there is a reason they are rarely seen on top tier tables and it is not because top tier players are clueless and missing out on this must have unit...

Divide and conquer. The maxim of every great General who has ever lived. Love how nobody even slightly picked up on the point I just made about pod players having to divide their army or go small number pods and thus risk stranding part of their army, aka... dividing their army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I counter them all the time.

How would you counter them if they have the first turn and 2 orbital bombardments coming in turn 1? Put everything in reserve?

I just pretend I'm playing against Tau for a turn. And then, unlike against Tau, things get better after I get to go.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Divide and conquer. The maxim of every great General who has ever lived. Love how nobody even slightly picked up on the point I just made about pod players having to divide their army or go small number pods and thus risk stranding part of their army, aka... dividing their army.

GW has made reserves far less risky and far more reliable over the editions. The issue you're talking about isn't quite as critical as you're making it out to be barring some truly terrible rolls. You can pick and choose what comes in turn 1, a smart SM player will design their army around this, having their "kill" units come in early, and consolidation forces that nab objectives or clean up survivors come in later, and if they take a couple turns to come in, that's fine, often they may not even have anything to do until turn 3.

Quite often you'll have a drop pod situation like this, 2 Sternguard units with combi-weapons, and a tac squad in a pod, the sternguard units will come in turn 1, combat squad, put the hurt on 4 units, and the tac squad will come in later, usually turn 2, and help consolidate the flank that the Sternguard shot to pieces. Not much "divide and conquer" there unless the Sternguard completely putzed their alpha strike.

I agree, but then I also think rhinos are too cheap but drop pods are much better than rhinos for a few editions now.

a drop pod will almost guarantee you get to place your unit where you want to, without the unit getting its ride blown up before it gets placed.

A rhino will not.

you can do the above with half of your drop pods turn 1, normally other armies cannot bring in reserves until turn 2+, you dont even need to roll.

should cost more points.

as for the comment they are rarely seen on top tables, thats pretty incorrect.

The top 8 of most tournaments includes at least 1 player with drop pods.

Example in point, current post on LVO practice tournament top player = drop pod player.