Before anything else, be sure to read the first paragraph, and the whole paragraph.
Okay, so we have major inconsistencies in fluff regarding Space Marines. In some fluff, you have Space Marines cutting Battleships in half and surviving a high-powered las-shot in the face. In others, you have Space Marines being torn apart like tissue paper, and unable to kill a single Eldar Aspect Warrior as he carves through an entire Company. This is attributed to each story being told from the view of different narrators, and most of them being told as Imperial Propaganda, tales told to young Blood Claws, a Harlequin's retelling of an Eldar victory, etc. etc. but the unreliability of the narrations is KILLING me. Because if this, I would like to start building up some realistic images of each of the different kinds of troops in each faction. I'm doing this on Bolter and Chainsword once I finish compiling everything I will need for it, but right here I just want to talk about Space Marines.
I want to talk about Space Marine equipment, physical attributes, even mental attributes, so from here, I'm just going to list a few things that I think Space Marines really are like, what their weapons really do, etc. I have compiled this knowledge after reading a crap-ton of books and an insane amount of wiki pages and logically working it out what this and that would be like in real life.
Realistically, what would the true power of a Bolter be? Would a Bolt Pistol be able to make an Eldar's head explode, or would it simply leave his ears ringing? Would a Heavy Bolter be leaving dozens and dozens of dead behind from a single mag, or would it barely be able to take down half a squad of Guardsmen?
Bolts: The vast majority of Space Marines weapons fire high-tech projectiles known as "bolts". On the table, these are everyday weapons, but in fluffy 40k, these are the same as the sword Archangel Michael used to cast down the Devil. Bolts are designed to penetrate their target, then detonate inside of it, similar to the way that the explosive shells in Naval Rifles are designed to penetrate the hull of a ship before detonating within to cause maximum damage. However, should the Bolt be unable to penetrate, it will detonate externally; causing far less damage. Bolts are basically explosive shells on steroids.
-IRL: The Bolt would have a detonation far more powerful than ordinary explosive ammunition. It's detonation would be similar to that of a 32 MM Grenade Launcher, however it's design would prevent it from killing more than one target; due to detonating within the target. Should a Bolt get a direct hit on a human being, that human would die, without a doubt. If it hits the torso, whole body turns into pieces as limbs go flying. Should a limb be hit, that limb goes kaboom, and the target would be sent flying; likely killed by either the shockwave of the detonation, impact on the ground, or simply from damage to internal organs from the initial detonation (target would undoubtedly bleed out soon after being hit should it survive). Blood loss from a hit from a Bolt would be massive, even for a creature the size of a Deathclaw (for those of you unacquainted with Fallout, a Yeti with really hard skin and massive claws). Most armours cannot resist a fusilade of Bolts, and even the best of Power Armours would fall apart after perhaps four hits to the breastplate, while standard Carapace armour would be lucky to survive more than one direct hit. The kind of armour needed to resist more than a few Bolts would have to be no weaker than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.
Note: Power Armour is known to have survived several direct hits from Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, etc. but it is also (almost always) said that armour integrity is compromised.
Chainswords: The iconic weapon of the Space Marines is basically a chainsaw that's easier to work with. The chainsword is heavy, with a lot of potential in killing fleshy targets. With the size and sophistication that Astartes Chainswords have, they are able to make the teeth spin incredibly quickly.
-IRL: The chainsword would grind through flesh, but would need time to actually kill a target in the hands of an ordinary human. With the strength of an Astartes, the Chainsword would cut deeply into an ordinary human, and would proceed to grind up his fleshy innards with relative ease. However, this would take several seconds to kill the target, which would give any surrounding enemies time to kill the undefended wielder; which is why the Astartes generally stick to swift slashes instead of simply holding the chainblade against the target and letting it do the work for them. When dueling, edge-on-edge parrying and blocking would result in the foe's blade being jerked down (or down, depending on the direction of the teeth-spinning), which would also make it difficult for the wielder to maintain control of the blade. Because of this, Space Marines would be forced to use the 'flat' of the blade for defense. Should an Assault Marine jump into a group of easily killed foes, then he would soon find his blade clogged with flesh; making it unusable. One major advantage that a Chainsword presents over an ordinary melee weapon is that it would cause excruciating agony for the victim, and would make him/her completely unable to do anything but scream in pain. Swift decapitations would be next to impossible against any opponent larger than a human, and cutting a person in half would also take at least several seconds (which is the equivalent of hours when in combat). Armour penetration would be next to impossible for most chain-weapons, and would take far more time than is practical on a battlefield; this is due to the simple fact that armours are far more advanced and well-built than you would find today. Against light armours, the chainsword would fare well, but would still take a moment or two to penetrate (unless the initial impact is sufficient to penetrate said armour).
Power weapons: Perhaps the most powerful close combat weapons in 40k, Power Weapons are used by most higher-ranking Space Marines. These weapons are composed of an incredibly hard metal with a small energy field generator inside of it. When activated, this weapon-type generates a thin field of super-heated energy around it that burns anything that touches it. (See: energy swords [Halo]). Due to the insane heat of Power weapons, they are capable of easily penetrating most armours; due to the extreme heat softening the armour while the sharp blade pierces it. Power weapons would also severely burn flesh, but would also cauterize any wounds that they made; leaving almost zero chance of victim bleeding out.
-IRL: Power weapons would be able to cut through large amounts of people relatively swiftly. The power weapon would be able to easily cut through flesh and bone, and would even burn the innards of the victim. One downside of the burning effect is that, should a foe lose a limb to a Power Weapon, that foe will almost certainly survive (minimal blood loss). Most armoured foes would find that their armour would do little but slow them down in a fight against a foe wielding a Power Weapon, but the armour of, say, a Terminator would be capable of resisting a direct strike. Should an Assault Marine wielding a Power Sword charge into a crowd, they will fall before him like wheat before a scythe.
Meltaguns: Fires a blast of concentrated microwave radiation; turning anything within range into molten slag. Basically, the ultimate anti-tank weapon. Infernus Pistols are also counted as Meltaguns.
-IRL: The Meltagun would easily destroy any groups of foes it finds within range, as well as any armoured foes. This baby would also take care of any vehicles that should be unlucky enough to cross paths with it, and would likely detonate their fuel supplies. This is definitely the most effective weapon I have ever heard of (aside from nukes).
Power Armour: This is what gives the Space Marines their iconic look. Power Armour is built of ceramite (one of the hardest metals known to man) with Plasteel forming the base. This is capable of easily deflecting ordinary ballistics alongside most lasers. However, it still has weak points; like any Plate Armour, if you hit a joint, slightly thinner part, etc. than an ordinary shot could penetrate and harm the wearer, while things like grenades and rockets would be far more capable in penetrating the Armour. A common misconception about Power Armour is that it is Ceramite is a type of ceramic material, when logic alongside Codex Astartes would dictate that it is metal, as ceramic would simply crumble when struck by a significant force, and would swiftly deteriorate in any combat or survival situation.
Along with its protective qualities, Power Armour greatly enhances strength and speed of its wearer. The only downside of Power Armour is that the bigass backpack on the back would keep its wielder from doing backflips.
-IRL: Armour that's thick as hell, with extra strength and speed to boot. What's not to love? Power Armour turns ordinary supersoldiers into superheroes. With Power Armour on, a Space Marine could crash into a squad of Guardsmen and kill 'em all with nothing but his fists.
Tactical Dreadnought Armour: Power Armour on steroids.
-IRL: Terminator Armour would basically allow a single Astartes warrior to go into a USA marine base filled with WARSOK (marine special forces) marines and kill everyone inside. The vast majority of conventional small arms would be unable to penetrate this armour without a great deal of time to chip away at it, and even things like rocket launchers would not be a sure thing. TDA also amplifies its user's strength and speed even MORE than ordinary Power Armour, though its user is less dexterous.
Dreadnought Sarcophagus: TDA on steroids.
-IRL: Turns its user into a walking, talking tank. Mounted with all kinds of Bolt weapons, Power Weapons, heavy weapons, etc, Dreadnought Armour is virtually indestructable by anything other than massed heavy weapon fire, and thus its user is capable of wreaking massive amounts of havoc on the enemy. An Astartes inside of a Dreadnought would be capable of facing every soldier in the entire US Marine Corps and come out relatively unscathed.
Astartes Physiology:
Height: varies, but is usually between 7 and 8 feet, with 9 feet being the max. 9 feet = 3 meters (3 meters also being the height of most Primarchs)
Note: Astartes height is often different from author to author, but, realistically, any larger and space travel would be next to impossible inside of ordinary Imperial Navy ships.
Weight: 250 kg - 300 kg, though there are always exceptions.
Note: 250 Kg = c. 475
300 kg = c. 650 lb
Strength: At least 4 times that of a normal human. Think Arnold Schwarzeneger back when he was still Mr. Universe, and double it.
-IRL: An Astartes would be significantly stronger, taller, faster, and heavier than an ordinary human. In a fist fight, an Astartes could easily defeat several hundred humans one after another, or several dozen all at once. Interesting thought - who would win in a fist fight, Bruce Lee or Uriel Ventras?
Most Astartes also have the ability to spit acid onto their foes in battle, though this is one aspect of their physiology that is almost never mentioned. To me, that makes NO FETHING SENSE, as that is a seriously awesome ability, but that's just Black Library being Black Library, right?
Astartes have a spare for every single one of their organs that are contained within their massive torsos (except for the intestines), alongside many additional organs, which grant them many special abilities that ordinary humans can only dream of. Due to the fusing of an Astartes' rib cage, it is only logical that the rib cage would also be slightly more supple than ordinary bones.
Special abilities: limited water breathing, enhanced senses, Acid-spitting, poison-resistance, almost-complete immunity to disease, rapid blood-clotting.
Astartes Mentality:
The Space Marines have received large amounts of Psycho-indoctrination and brainwashing, so they would be fiercely loyal to their Battle-Brothers and to the Imperium as a whole. However, before all else comes the Emprah; which is why you have Chapters like the Soul Drinkers, who don't give a rat's ass for the IoM, but would die in a heartbeat for the Emprah. Any Loyalist Astartes would gladly lay his life down for his Brothers, the IoM, or the Emprah, or even for some particularly juicy tech - they don't really value their own lives too much (Duty above all).
Regarding fear: most Astartes would never run from a fight unless absolutely necessary. Astartes have almost no fear in them, except for that small amount of rational fear that basically just analyzes a threat and says "Just thought you'd wanna know, that thing right there is big, bad, and deadly".
Regarding intelligence: Astartes do have their intelligence boosted to a certain degree during the metamorphosis from human to Space Marine, however there are no definite numbers, as you have the downright idiotic Space Wolves on one hand, and the fraggin' genius Alpha Legion on the other.
Overall: An Astartes warrior is similar to a Samurai in his devotion and mindset, a US Navy Seal in his knowledge and understanding, and a Catholic Monk in his faith.
If I missed anything in the physiology portion, please tell me and I will add it. Please give me some feedback on what I said about the equipment and how it would be in real life.
What do you guys think? Should I do this for any other troop-types/factions?
dusara217 wrote: Bolts: The vast majority of Space Marines weapons fire high-tech projectiles known as "bolts". On the table, these are everyday weapons, but in fluffy 40k, these are the same as the sword Archangel Michael used to cast down the Devil. Bolts are designed to penetrate their target, then detonate inside of it, similar to the way that the explosive shells in Naval Rifles are designed to penetrate the hull of a ship before detonating within to cause maximum damage. However, should the Bolt be unable to penetrate, it will detonate externally; causing far less damage. Bolts are basically explosive shells on steroids.
-IRL: The Bolt would have a detonation far more powerful than ordinary explosive ammunition. It's detonation would be similar to that of a 32 MM Grenade Launcher, however it's design would prevent it from killing more than one target; due to detonating within the target. Should a Bolt get a direct hit on a human being, that human would die, without a doubt. If it hits the torso, whole body turns into pieces as limbs go flying. Should a limb be hit, that limb goes kaboom, and the target would be sent flying; likely killed by either the shockwave of the detonation, impact on the ground, or simply from damage to internal organs from the initial detonation (target would undoubtedly bleed out soon after being hit should it survive). Blood loss from a hit from a Bolt would be massive, even for a creature the size of a Deathclaw (for those of you unacquainted with Fallout, a Yeti with really hard skin and massive claws). Very few armours would actually be able to resist the power of a Bolt, and even the best of Power Armours would fall apart after maybe three hits. The kind of armour needed to resist more than a few Bolts would have to be no weaker than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.
I think you're overpowering the bolts quite a bit; though I have no real problem with this. It is worth noting that carapace armor can resist direct hits from bolt rounds in much of the fluff, and in my headcanon.
Chainswords: The iconic weapon of the Space Marines is basically a chainsaw that's easier to work with. The chainsword is heavy, with a lot of potential in killing fleshy targets.
-IRL: The chainsword would not slide easily through flesh, and would need time to actually kill a target. With the strength of an Astartes, the Chainsword would cut deeply into an ordinary human, and would proceed to grind up his fleshy innards. However, this would take several seconds to kill the target, which would give any surrounding enemies time to kill the undefended wielder. However, an ordinary human being would take eve more time to kill his target (see: Chainsaw Bayonet [Gears of War]). Should a chainsword be used to parry or block another blade, the other blade would be jerked downward (or upward) due to the swiftly moving teeth of the chainsword. Should an Assault Marine jump into a group of easily killed foes, then he would soon find his blade clogged with flesh; making it unusable. One major advantage that a Chainsword presents over an ordinary melee weapon is that it would cause excruciating agony for the victim, and would make him/her completely unable to do anything but scream in pain. Swift decapitations would be next to impossible, and cutting a person in half would also take a good deal of time. Armour penetration would be next to impossible for most chain-weapons, and would take far more time than is practical on a battlefield.
I agree here. It's basically a pointless weapon, though it's unpredictability makes it as hard to fence against as to wield
Power weapons: Perhaps the most powerful close combat weapons in 40k, Power Weapons are used by most higher-ranking Space Marines. These weapons are composed of an incredibly hard metal with a small energy field generator inside of it. When activated, this weapon-type generates a thin field of super-heated energy around it that burns anything that touches it. (See: energy swords [Halo]). Due to the insane heat of Power weapons, they are capable of easily penetrating most armours; due to the extreme heat softening the armour while the sharp blade pierces it. Power weapons would also severely burn flesh, but would also cauterize any wounds that they made; leaving almost zero chance of victim bleeding out.
-IRL: Power weapons would be able to cut through large amounts of people relatively swiftly. The power weapon would be able to easily cut through flesh and bone, and would even burn the innards of the victim. One downside of the burning effect is that, should a foe lose a limb to a Power Weapon, that foe will almost certainly survive (minimal blood loss). Any armoured foes would find that their armour would do little but slow them down in a fight against a foe wielding a Power Weapon. Should an Assault Marine wielding a Power Sword charge into a crowd, he will them to be like wheat before a scythe.
It is worth noting that some metals (for example, the plasteel and adamantium used in tank armor) can resist the blows of a power sword rather effectively, and the Lathe-metal alloys used by the Adeptus Mechanicus can outright defeat them.
Meltaguns: Fires a blast of concentrated microwave radiation; turning anything within range into molten slag. Basically, the ultimate anti-tank weapon. Infernus Pistols are also counted as Meltaguns.
-IRL: The Meltagun would easily destroy any groups of foes it finds within range, as well as any armoured foes. This baby would also take care of any vehicles that should be unlucky enough to cross paths with it, and would likely detonate their fuel supplies. This is definitely the most effective weapon I have ever heard of (aside from nukes).
Certainly effective, though their pinpoint nature can be a liability.
Power Armour: This is what gives the Space Marines their iconic look. Power Armour is built of ceramite (one of the hardest metals known to man) with Plasteel forming the base. This is capable of easily deflecting ordinary ballistics alongside most lasers. Along with its protective qualities, Power Armour greatly enhances strength and speed of its wearer. The only downside of Power Armour is that the bigass backpack on the back would keep its wielder from doing backflips.
-IRL: Armour that's thick as hell, with extra strength and speed to boot. What's not to love? Power Armour turns ordinary supersoldiers into superheroes. With Power Armour on, a Space Marine could crash into a platoon of Guardsmen and kill 'em all with nothing but his fists.
Power armor is good, but not that good - IIRC the first or second edition wargear book gave it around 85% survival rate against small arms for the wearer - about the protection it provides on the Table Top against lasguns, incidentally (including the roll to wound). It is certainly great, but it is nowhere near as good as the armor on a battletank, for example.
Tactical Dreadnought Armour: Power Armour on steroids.
-IRL: Terminator Armour would basically allow a single Astartes warrior to go into a USA marine base filled with WARSOK (marine special forces) marines and kill everyone inside. Almost nothing would be able to penetrate this armour without a great deal of time to chip away at it. TDA also amplifies its user's strength and speed even MORE than ordinary Power Armour, though its user is less dexterous.
This overestimates the armor a bit I think - concussive force can still injure the occupant (unless it's ridiculously padded/has compensation) and even compensation systems will sometimes encounter force that they cannot overcome. A tank round from, say, a 120mm smoothbore or the Vanquisher's cannon should be able to pulp the occupant even if it does not directly breach the armor, imo.
Dreadnought Sarcophagus: TDA on steroids.
-IRL: Turns its user into a walking, talking tank. Mounted with all kinds of Bolt weapons, Power Weapons, heavy weapons, etc, Dreadnought Armour is virtually indestructable by anything other than massed heavy weapon fire, and thus its user is capabled of wreaking massive amounts of havok on the enemy. An Astartes inside of a Dreadnought would be capable of facing every soldier in the entire US Marine Corps and come out relatively unscathed.
Depending on what the marines are armed with, really - but yes, at this scale you're finally getting armor thick enough and supported enough to go up against battle tanks.
Height: varies, but is usually between 7 and 8 feet, with 9 feet being the max. 9 feet = 3 meters (3 meters also being the height of most Primarchs)
Weight: 100 kg - 150 kg, though there are always exceptions.
Strength: At least 4 times that of a normal human. Think Arnold Schwarzeneger back when he was still Mr. Universe, and double it.
-IRL: An Astartes would be significantly stronger, taller, faster, and heavier than an ordinary human. In a fist fight, an Astartes could easily defeat a thousand humans one after another, or several dozen all at once. Interesting thought - who would win in a fist fight, Bruce Lee or Uriel Ventras?
Most Astartes also have the ability to spit acid onto their foes in battle, though this is one aspect of their physiology that is almost never mentioned. To me, that makes NO FETHING SENSE, as that is a seriously awesome ability, but that's just Black Library being Black Library, right?
Astartes have a spare for every single one of their organs that are contained within their torso, except for the intestines.
Special abilities: limited water breathing, enhanced senses, Acid-spitting, poison-resistent, complete immunity to disease.
Speaking of making no sense - this entire section. Astartes physiology makes no sense; for example, how does one's ribcage expand to breathe if it is solid? I largely agree, though the 1,000 - 1 number seems silly - more like 10 or 12 to one. The endurance of the flesh can only go so far, even if it is genetically perfect.
The Space Marines have receive large amounts of Psycho-indoctrination and brainwashin, so they would be fiercely loyal to their Battle-Brothers and to the Imperium as a whole. However, before all else comes the Emprah; which is why you have Chapters like the Sould Drinkers, who don't give a rat's ass for the IoM, but would die in a heartbeat for the Emprah. Most Astartes would never run from a fight unless absolutely necessary. Any Loyalist Astartes would gladly lay his life down for his Brothers, the IoM, or the Emprah, or even for some particularly juicy tech. Astartes also have almost no fear in them, except for that small amount of fear that basically just analyzes a threat and says "Just thought you'd wanna know, that thing right there is big, bad, and deadly".
I am conflicted about their mindset - are they good soldiers or good warriors?
well let's step back and examine what you've said, I agree with some of it, disagree with others.
1st: Boltguns: You claim very few armors would be able to resist a bolt. not sure I agree with that assesment. we know little about how bolt guns interact with armor other then they can't nesscarily penatrate power armor. we also don't know what happens to the explosive when the round hits something it can't dig into.. does it explode? not explode? I think you're absolutly right that bolt rounds would make a absolte MESS of any lightly armored target.
2nd: Chainswords: largely agree although it depends on how fast the teeth move (I tend to assume when a chainsword is used to block space marines use the flat of the blade. this BTW would explain the general preferance among loyalist marines for one sided chainswords and chaos using two sided. two sided is more dangerous and deadly but also would make defending yourself harder) that said chainswords also have an advantage over regular blades that you need far less energy to cut something then you would with a conventional blade. the moving blades do the work for you. chainswords are proably used for short slashes using the movement of the blades to turn what would be a glancing cut into a terriably brutal wound.
not sure I agree with you on power weapons. you're assuming I think that they operate basicly like a lightsaber, but the power field doesn't work that way. a power field works by "disrupting the molecular bonds of the target" basicly it's a "disintergrator sword" I'm really not sure what impact having bits of you disintergrated would do but I bet it's nasty.
just my two cents.
one thing looking at boltguns and chainswords though is that these weapons are notably in the terriable wounds they leave even if they DON'T kill you they're gonna be nasty. this combined with the phenominon of transhuman dread makes me conclude Astarties where intended to be terror weapons as much as anything else.
I believe you may have neglected a few special organs, such as the Larraman (Rapid Clotting) and the one that neutralizes poisons. Those seem important in a combat situation.
I used to feel the same on Chainswords but having read a lot of the books of late have gotten a bit more soft on them.
The average marine would not 'duel' with chainswords, they are a butchering weapon not one of elegance. When they do need to parry a blow they are trained to do this with the flat of the blade not the teeth. They are also incredibly well engineered weapons with in built lubrication and power supplies to keep them running not to mention it is stated in the books after almost every engagement the marines first action is to reload their weapons and to wipe down their swords removing any build up of tissue and blood.
It is all well and good to tear down the gear but you have to remember the wielders of such equipment are not men anymore, they are so beyond men in terms of physical ability and of course are conditioned and trained hour after hour and day after day to use the equipment efficiently. I am sure in the hands of a man a bolter would not be as effective weapon but a marine takes his first couple of shots at an opponent and then reads the damage, the weak places on the armour and so on all in the blink of an eye and compensates for this.
The battle against the Mecharachnids in the Horus books is a good indication of this, within minutes of their first engagement the marines have completely adapted their style of fighting to that opponent.
BrianDavion wrote:well let's step back and examine what you've said, I agree with some of it, disagree with others.
1st: Boltguns: You claim very few armors would be able to resist a bolt. not sure I agree with that assesment. we know little about how bolt guns interact with armor other then they can't nesscarily penatrate power armor. we also don't know what happens to the explosive when the round hits something it can't dig into.. does it explode? not explode? I think you're absolutly right that bolt rounds would make a absolte MESS of any lightly armored target.
2nd: Chainswords: largely agree although it depends on how fast the teeth move (I tend to assume when a chainsword is used to block space marines use the flat of the blade. this BTW would explain the general preferance among loyalist marines for one sided chainswords and chaos using two sided. two sided is more dangerous and deadly but also would make defending yourself harder) that said chainswords also have an advantage over regular blades that you need far less energy to cut something then you would with a conventional blade. the moving blades do the work for you. chainswords are proably used for short slashes using the movement of the blades to turn what would be a glancing cut into a terriably brutal wound.
not sure I agree with you on power weapons. you're assuming I think that they operate basicly like a lightsaber, but the power field doesn't work that way. a power field works by "disrupting the molecular bonds of the target" basicly it's a "disintergrator sword" I'm really not sure what impact having bits of you disintergrated would do but I bet it's nasty.
just my two cents.
one thing looking at boltguns and chainswords though is that these weapons are notably in the terriable wounds they leave even if they DON'T kill you they're gonna be nasty. this combined with the phenominon of transhuman dread makes me conclude Astarties where intended to be terror weapons as much as anything else.
Regarding Boltguns: I believe that you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. What I meant was that Bolts would penetrate most armours due to impact + explosion, not that a bolt would actually do much damage once penetrating armours, unless said armour was previously weakened. After looking at the design of a standard Bolt, I have come to the conclusion that the speed plus the way that the bullet itself would hit compounded by the explosion on impact would make it penetrate most standard armours, as well as many non-standard-issue armours. Also, the reason that I have come to the conclusion that Bolts explode after not being able to dig into something is that the only logical way for something like that to work would be with some kind impact sensor that would detonate the Bolt after it has been significantly slowed - for instance, the significant slowing down that would occur inside of the flesh of a person, or from being stopped cold.
Considering the thickness of chainswords, the use of the flat of the blade does seem far more likely for blocking and parrying. And yes, it would turn even a glancing blow into a devastating strike, but, it would also be constantly biting deeper into the flesh and make it far more difficult to remove the blade from the opponent's body.
I have read oftentimes of "sizzling flesh" in regards to a Power Sword being pressed against a person's skin or its wielder pausing for a moment with his blade still buried in his victim. And, yes, it while it would disintegrate skin and meat, but, disintegration occurs primarily through heat (though there are other means of disintegrating a foe), and that, along with many other little tidbits regarding Power Weapons, leads me to believe that Power Weapons have super-heated energy fields around them that would both cauterize a wound and cut easily through flesh; disintegrating as it goes.
SirSertile wrote:I believe you may have neglected a few special organs, such as the Larraman (Rapid Clotting) and the one that neutralizes poisons. Those seem important in a combat situation.
I"ll be sure to add the Larraman Organ, I'm afraid that I'd completely forgotten about it.
The acid spit seeing little use isn't really that odd - you can't spit on people when wearing a helmet, and impressive bare-headed models or not I'd suspect no sane Space Marine goes into battle without a helmet unless he has no choice. And those enemies probably also wear helmets...
And ofc, the acid produced by Betcher's Gland is probably not that impressive as a weapon. It's called a " corrosive, blinding acid", which can help a marine trapped behind iron bars to chew his way out in a few hours. More commonly used to break down and digest materials that no one would consider edible in situations where no other food is available. Presumably it could be useful when spat into the face of an opponent - but compared to what a marine can do with his bare hands it sounds pretty tame.
1) The Chainsword has massive, monomolecular edged teeth. It slides through matter quite easily.
2) Acid-spitting, as mentioned previously, isn't for use in combat. It's for getting past gates, breaking out of chains, and similar functions. This is a utility upgrade, not a direct combat upgrade.
3) Bolts don't explode on impact. They have a mass-reactive component to their fuse. That is, it doesn't explode until after it's inside you. So, bolt hits the armor, the round senses this as its armor-piercing tip punches an inch-wide hole through you, and the fuse begins "burning", then it hits your soft bits and goes a couple inches in... and then blows a chunk out of you the size of a Space Marine's fist when the bullet explodes. If you are a man-sized target, and took one to the chest, this would destroy your lungs and, depending on where you were hit, either your stomach, liver and kidneys or your heart.
Psienesis wrote: 3) Bolts don't explode on impact. They have a mass-reactive component to their fuse. That is, it doesn't explode until after it's inside you. So, bolt hits the armor, the round senses this as its armor-piercing tip punches an inch-wide hole through you, and the fuse begins "burning", then it hits your soft bits and goes a couple inches in... and then blows a chunk out of you the size of a Space Marine's fist when the bullet explodes.
Then again what IS a "mass reactive" fuse? What if it doesnt go in? If it doesnt explode, alot of potential is wasted. Because if you can't penetrate armor, and it is infantry, the explosion can still terribly wound the soldier. Imagine he has a good chestplate that can't be penetrated by a standard bolt. The Bolt hits on that plate. Now if it would explode there, it would do alot more damage, then just breaking apart (that's what projectiles do if they can't penetrate something). It could terribly damage the soldiers lesser protected limbs (if not even rip them off). Additionally the force of the explosion could cause additional bad effects (blunt trauma) - depending on how strong it is and other factors.
i'd say "mass reactive" fuse is just a cool word for contact fuze with delay. That was a very common item in alot of ammunition in WW2. The fuze is activated on impact, but is delayed for a few milliseconds. Just enough to let the projectile penetrate through the armor and deliver the explosive inside. Has been used extensively in WW2 Anti-Tank (Armor-Piercing-High-Explosive rounds). WW2 Aircraft autocannons also had this fuze type. It would make the most sense if bolt round had this type of fuze. Note that there can also a minimum sensivity for a fuze to activate. That means it won't activate if you shoot through a piece of cardboard for example, so you can't just defeat it with simple tricks like this/ protect yourself by using such stuff as cover.
dusara217 wrote:I have read oftentimes of "sizzling flesh" in regards to a Power Sword being pressed against a person's skin or its wielder pausing for a moment with his blade still buried in his victim. And, yes, it while it would disintegrate skin and meat, but, disintegration occurs primarily through heat (though there are other means of disintegrating a foe), and that, along with many other little tidbits regarding Power Weapons, leads me to believe that Power Weapons have super-heated energy fields around them that would both cauterize a wound and cut easily through flesh; disintegrating as it goes.
Energy can transform into other energy. So it doesnt need to be a heat field if it burns matter. If you think of electrical energy... there are enough videos on youtube to show you how a tree or whatever is in contact with a high voltage wire starts burning. I'd rather think its similar but not exactly the same as a strong electrical field that has so much energy that it somehow changes the properties of atom connections it comes into connection with, therefore bypassing the strength of many materials.
I try not to think about these things to much. It destroys the fun factor realy.
Just like us, not every SM is the same. Some are bigger,stronger or faster than another. You might even have dimwitted space marines. The truly fearless might be capable of the gratest acts of valor while a dimwitted one might just have had a lot of luck...
Just because some SM die like flies and other survive a ridiculous injury doesnt mean fluff might be incorrect. Just like there are realy talented SM there can be talented Eldar or Orks that might stand above their kind.
Just read it as is, and it will stay fun. Disecting fluff into realistic pieces just destroys the fluff
Your effort to describ the actual capacity of a Space Marine is a nice attempt, but I would strongly advise you not to try it in such a fashion. The first reason, is that a realistic Space Marine are impossible for the following reason (and that's just from reading a few books on biologie, first aid and bio-mechanic): dense bone mass and fused rib-cage would prevent them from breathing correctly and would cook their organs because it prevent heat transfer (just like turtles and tortoise when they start to run); it would also prevent them from bending far enought to touch their toes which would make them poorer fighter in close combat; two hearts are useless and potentially dangerous; larraman cell would cause them ACV, heart failures and dangerous organ malfunction on a regular basis and since their acid spit can corrod metal and space marine seems to be vulnerable to acid (they are still are organic of course) how come it doesn't melt their face each time they spit or even salivate? Right there, you have terrible issues to solve about Space Marine and wouldn't like to be in your chair at that point. In fiction, it's usually considered stupid to try to explain magic with science (it doesn't work) and Space Marines are has magic in my opinion just like Sauron's Ring of Power, Harry Potter's wand, Excalibur or Tinker Bell. Would anyone try to explain the powers of fairies because from one story to another it seems to change all the time (and it does)? Theologians have tried for centuries to define what a god really is and what it should be able to do and they all have failed miserably to reach unanimity in such an important subject: defining the object of potential worship. You would feel much better simply giving us your vision of the Space Marine capacities compared to all the others without trying to inject to much science in it or overexplaining your points. Just my two cents....
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: Just read it as is, and it will stay fun. Disecting fluff into realistic pieces just destroys the fluff
i partially disagree. It constantly destroys the fun for me if yet again one of the lesser BL author writes bullcrap about the weapons/armor capabilities, or if people just fantasize about how awesome it is, which doesnt even match the descriptions. There is stuff (e.g. Warp stuff) that isn't explainable. And marine biology propably too, because that's not something we can do atm. I'm not good in biology and that stuff either... but technical stuff i DO understand. The laws of physics still apply to normal technology, as long as no warp is involved. It destroys the immersion everytime someone tries to force feed you with stuff that doesnt make sense at all, that contradicts even the basic laws of physics.
That's why i think it's good to give parts that are indeed explainable by realworld comparisons, a reality check, to prevent the immersion breaking (and often unnecessary) stupid things.
Your effort to describ the actual capacity of a Space Marine is a nice attempt, but I would strongly advise you not to try it in such a fashion. The first reason, is that a realistic Space Marine are impossible for the following reason (and that's just from reading a few books on biologie, first aid and bio-mechanic): dense bone mass and fused rib-cage would prevent them from breathing correctly and would cook their organs because it prevent heat transfer (just like turtles and tortoise when they start to run); it would also prevent them from bending far enought to touch their toes which would make them poorer fighter in close combat; two hearts are useless and potentially dangerous; larraman cell would cause them ACV, heart failures and dangerous organ malfunction on a regular basis and since their acid spit can corrod metal and space marine seems to be vulnerable to acid (they are still are organic of course) how come it doesn't melt their face each time they spit or even salivate? Right there, you have terrible issues to solve about Space Marine and wouldn't like to be in your chair at that point. In fiction, it's usually considered stupid to try to explain magic with science (it doesn't work) and Space Marines are has magic in my opinion just like Sauron's Ring of Power, Harry Potter's wand, Excalibur or Tinker Bell. Would anyone try to explain the powers of fairies because from one story to another it seems to change all the time (and it does)? Theologians have tried for centuries to define what a god really is and what it should be able to do and they all have failed miserably to reach unanimity in such an important subject: defining the object of potential worship. You would feel much better simply giving us your vision of the Space Marine capacities compared to all the others without trying to inject to much science in it or overexplaining your points. Just my two cents....
Bones: I don't know how much actual movement goes on in the ribcage, and if the lower portion of the abdomen doesn't get futzed with I don't see how that would prevent them from being able to bend over. I don't see anything in the implants about denser bone mass, the ossmodula implant is there to let the skeleton grow to a full seven-foot Space Marine height more than anything else.
Secondary heart: Since it's also a setup to create emergency booster shots of adrenaline I suspect it's not literally an extra 'heart'. It could just as easily be a package of cybernetic enhancements to the normal heart and a secondary pump that starts going if the normal heart deactivates and it would have the same function, describing it as a 'secondary heart' could simply be the poetic side Imperial technology loves.
Acid spit: What if it's a substance that reacts with air to become acidic? It doesn't help with the not burned mouth but maybe it takes a few moments of exposure.
Larraman's Organ: I'm not sure what ACV is in this context so I can't help you with this one.
Disclaimer: I'm not actually a biologist or medical professional, I'm an amateur sci-fi writer who occasionally comes up with technobabble explanations for physically implausible things by poking around on the Internet.
But the point is that you can't come up with a 'realistic' explanation/description of most of this because the folks in charge are presumed to have tools and technology we don't and may have come up with ways around the inherent physical problems with things like Space Marines. You can stick to the facts and point out it's not real, or you can come up with not real technobabble to explain it, all you've proven is here, now, today, the human race could not create a Space Marine.
Height: varies, but is usually between 7 and 8 feet, with 9 feet being the max. 9 feet = 3 meters (3 meters also being the height of most Primarchs) Note: Astartes height is often different from author to author, but, realistically, any larger and space travel would be next to impossible inside of ordinary Imperial Navy ships.
For whatever reason every doorway/tunnel/whatever seems to be specifically built for astartes power armour. Or was there any BL where the marines just couldn't advance because of an entrance they couldn't enter because of size limitations?
If i was the TAU or rebel infantry i would exclusively build tunnel systems and fortifications with human shoulder width and 1.8m heigth at max. for defences -> practically impossible to access by Marines or the average Ork.
Your effort to describ the actual capacity of a Space Marine is a nice attempt, but I would strongly advise you not to try it in such a fashion. The first reason, is that a realistic Space Marine are impossible for the following reason (and that's just from reading a few books on biologie, first aid and bio-mechanic): dense bone mass and fused rib-cage would prevent them from breathing correctly and would cook their organs because it prevent heat transfer (just like turtles and tortoise when they start to run); it would also prevent them from bending far enought to touch their toes which would make them poorer fighter in close combat; two hearts are useless and potentially dangerous; larraman cell would cause them ACV, heart failures and dangerous organ malfunction on a regular basis and since their acid spit can corrod metal and space marine seems to be vulnerable to acid (they are still are organic of course) how come it doesn't melt their face each time they spit or even salivate? Right there, you have terrible issues to solve about Space Marine and wouldn't like to be in your chair at that point. In fiction, it's usually considered stupid to try to explain magic with science (it doesn't work) and Space Marines are has magic in my opinion just like Sauron's Ring of Power, Harry Potter's wand, Excalibur or Tinker Bell. Would anyone try to explain the powers of fairies because from one story to another it seems to change all the time (and it does)? Theologians have tried for centuries to define what a god really is and what it should be able to do and they all have failed miserably to reach unanimity in such an important subject: defining the object of potential worship. You would feel much better simply giving us your vision of the Space Marine capacities compared to all the others without trying to inject to much science in it or overexplaining your points. Just my two cents....
Bones: I don't know how much actual movement goes on in the ribcage, and if the lower portion of the abdomen doesn't get futzed with I don't see how that would prevent them from being able to bend over. I don't see anything in the implants about denser bone mass, the ossmodula implant is there to let the skeleton grow to a full seven-foot Space Marine height more than anything else.
Secondary heart: Since it's also a setup to create emergency booster shots of adrenaline I suspect it's not literally an extra 'heart'. It could just as easily be a package of cybernetic enhancements to the normal heart and a secondary pump that starts going if the normal heart deactivates and it would have the same function, describing it as a 'secondary heart' could simply be the poetic side Imperial technology loves.
Acid spit: What if it's a substance that reacts with air to become acidic? It doesn't help with the not burned mouth but maybe it takes a few moments of exposure.
Larraman's Organ: I'm not sure what ACV is in this context so I can't help you with this one.
Disclaimer: I'm not actually a biologist or medical professional, I'm an amateur sci-fi writer who occasionally comes up with technobabble explanations for physically implausible things by poking around on the Internet.
But the point is that you can't come up with a 'realistic' explanation/description of most of this because the folks in charge are presumed to have tools and technology we don't and may have come up with ways around the inherent physical problems with things like Space Marines. You can stick to the facts and point out it's not real, or you can come up with not real technobabble to explain it, all you've proven is here, now, today, the human race could not create a Space Marine.
It doesn't make their bones super dense, it causes them to turn into a ceramic-like compound which is stronger then normal bone matter. While also probably making them lighter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.
Spetulhu wrote: The acid spit seeing little use isn't really that odd - you can't spit on people when wearing a helmet, and impressive bare-headed models or not I'd suspect no sane Space Marine goes into battle without a helmet unless he has no choice. And those enemies probably also wear helmets...
And ofc, the acid produced by Betcher's Gland is probably not that impressive as a weapon. It's called a " corrosive, blinding acid", which can help a marine trapped behind iron bars to chew his way out in a few hours. More commonly used to break down and digest materials that no one would consider edible in situations where no other food is available. Presumably it could be useful when spat into the face of an opponent - but compared to what a marine can do with his bare hands it sounds pretty tame.
Yes, and how many times do you hear of captive Space Marines using said acid to chew through the bars of their cells, or the cuffs that bind them? I have yet to read a single piece of fluff where the acid spitting is used even once. If you have, please inform me of it, so I can learn something new and find an author who (hopefully) properly represents Space Marines.
Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?
I liked your post, but I just wanted to add that I'd reconsider your astartes' unarmored weight.
By your calculations, I've got between 0 and a hundred pounds of weight on them (0-50kg), and I'm only 6'3" (1.9 m) tall.
I mean, unless we're talking about the "Sons of Anorexia" chapter.
Good post, though. For your bolter section, look up gyrojet weapons. It's neat reading.
FM Argos
Edit: I see the numbers have been adjusted, much better!
Spetulhu wrote: The acid spit seeing little use isn't really that odd - you can't spit on people when wearing a helmet, and impressive bare-headed models or not I'd suspect no sane Space Marine goes into battle without a helmet unless he has no choice. And those enemies probably also wear helmets...
And ofc, the acid produced by Betcher's Gland is probably not that impressive as a weapon. It's called a " corrosive, blinding acid", which can help a marine trapped behind iron bars to chew his way out in a few hours. More commonly used to break down and digest materials that no one would consider edible in situations where no other food is available. Presumably it could be useful when spat into the face of an opponent - but compared to what a marine can do with his bare hands it sounds pretty tame.
Yes, and how many times do you hear of captive Space Marines using said acid to chew through the bars of their cells, or the cuffs that bind them? I have yet to read a single piece of fluff where the acid spitting is used even once. If you have, please inform me of it, so I can learn something new and find an author who (hopefully) properly represents Space Marines.
Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?
First Captain Sevatar of the Night Lords in the novella Prince of Crows uses acid spit when captured on a Dark Angel battleship to dissolve the wall of a reinforced iron prison cell before being promptly discovered and thrown into a cell with force field technology.
Wyzilla wrote: Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.
Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.
Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.
Wyzilla wrote: Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.
Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.
Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.
Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.
Keep wrote: For whatever reason every doorway/tunnel/whatever seems to be specifically built for astartes power armour. Or was there any BL where the marines just couldn't advance because of an entrance they couldn't enter because of size limitations?
If i was the TAU or rebel infantry i would exclusively build tunnel systems and fortifications with human shoulder width and 1.8m heigth at max. for defences -> practically impossible to access by Marines or the average Ork.
Wyzilla wrote: Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.
Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.
Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.
Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.
Yes, but I'm fairly certain that the authors aren't strong enough sci-fi writers to know that it even exists.
Wyzilla wrote: Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.
Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.
Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.
Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.
Yes, but I'm fairly certain that the authors aren't strong enough sci-fi writers to know that it even exists.
More to the point sci-fi works best, long term, when kept vague, some stuff that sounds really advanced, gets dated others don't and it's hard to tell what. which is where you get silly stuff like "THIS UBER SUPER COMPUTER CARRIES MEGABYTES OF DATA!" which might have sounded amazing in 1985 but now... less so
Wyzilla wrote: Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.
Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.
Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.
Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.
Yes, but I'm fairly certain that the authors aren't strong enough sci-fi writers to know that it even exists.
More to the point sci-fi works best, long term, when kept vague, some stuff that sounds really advanced, gets dated others don't and it's hard to tell what. which is where you get silly stuff like "THIS UBER SUPER COMPUTER CARRIES MEGABYTES OF DATA!" which might have sounded amazing in 1985 but now... less so
It's crazy to think even thirty years ago megabytes were impressive, when we're now building servers to store a yottabyte or more of information.
dusara217 wrote: Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?
If you're within spitting distance you're also in range for a fist, chainsword or other weapon. Why waste time on triggering the acid glands - and aiming very carefully - when you have better weapons? A particularly sadistic marine might use it for toying with a totally outmatched opponent, but serious saga-seeking Space Wolves might even consider it dishonorable.
Oh, and the description of the glands mention that it's actually several different ones each producing a component of the acid. The parts becomes acid only after it's mixed up, so the marine should have a second or two to get it out of his mouth.
Much of 40k doesn't work when you apply real world physics, and most races/technology work in such a vast span - from being absolutely worthless to being unstoppable, depending on the writer - that trying to quantify anything is more a lesson of "Which version of events do I prefer/imagine happening the most in my head.
Bolter rounds have nonsensical things like "depleted deuterium core", marines technically can't breath or move much of their upper torso with a black carpace, most armor has an RHA inferior to modern tanks and many terms are applied with no actual understanding of their meaning for coolness factor (ie. Monomolecular edge would suck and no amount of mono anything is going to make chainswords a viable weapon, much less a preferred weapon considering all available options).
Then you have handwavium like meltas and everything from a Primarch fearing a single bolter shot (Guiliman) to being stepped on by a Titan and tanking a Warhound plasma shot to the face (Angron, Lorgar).
I love 40k too, and mostly for the awesome fluff that makes my boy-heart flutter and my testosterone do silly things. But don't try to quantify it. Because if you can to any great degree, you're lying to yourself and are making fanboy arguments. Better to just nod and play along to whatever you've currently got going on in your head.
dusara217 wrote: Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?
If you're within spitting distance you're also in range for a fist, chainsword or other weapon. Why waste time on triggering the acid glands - and aiming very carefully - when you have better weapons? A particularly sadistic marine might use it for toying with a totally outmatched opponent, but serious saga-seeking Space Wolves might even consider it dishonorable.
Oh, and the description of the glands mention that it's actually several different ones each producing a component of the acid. The parts becomes acid only after it's mixed up, so the marine should have a second or two to get it out of his mouth.
You trigger the acid glands WHILE you're fighting and then spit to distract your opponent while you deliver the killing blow.
I think a Marine would be much heavier than what you list. Much much much much heavier.
As far as I know, PA resists direct bolter fire unless you hit soft armour. After all, we've seen PA turn aside multiple direct hits from heavy bolters and autocannons alike.
Ashiraya wrote: I think a Marine would be much heavier than what you list. Much much much much heavier.
As far as I know, PA resists direct bolter fire unless you hit soft armour. After all, we've seen PA turn aside multiple direct hits from heavy bolters and autocannons alike.
This is true. An "average" human with "healthy" musculature at around 6'5" should weigh in nearly 200 pounds according to U.S. Health guidelines.
At 7'5"-8" this becomes 260-300 pounds.
Now include their enormous musculature, enhanced bones, black carapace. Easily 600-700, or more depending on material and thickness of the carapace (skeletal muscle/FMM raises weight pretty quickly relative to size the taller you get).
Add on power armor?
That's just one more kink! Suddenly you have 8'-8.5' (in armor) unable to get into most buildings and falling through all the floors, breaking all the elevators and stair shifts giving way out from beneath them.
As said, Warhammer doesn't work well with physics. The entire place runs on Rule of Cool.
Ashiraya wrote: I think a Marine would be much heavier than what you list. Much much much much heavier.
As far as I know, PA resists direct bolter fire unless you hit soft armour. After all, we've seen PA turn aside multiple direct hits from heavy bolters and autocannons alike.
This is true. An "average" human with "healthy" musculature at around 6'5" should weigh in nearly 200 pounds according to U.S. Health guidelines.
At 7'5"-8" this becomes 260-300 pounds.
Now include their enormous musculature, enhanced bones, black carapace. Easily 600-700, or more depending on material and thickness of the carapace (skeletal muscle/FMM raises weight pretty quickly relative to size the taller you get).
Add on power armor?
That's just one more kink! Suddenly you have 8'-8.5' (in armor) unable to get into most buildings and falling through all the floors, breaking all the elevators and stair shifts giving way out from beneath them.
As said, Warhammer doesn't work well with physics. The entire place runs on Rule of Cool.
And rockcrete/duracrete/whatnot (I keep forgetting which technobabble-super-concrete goes to which setting, one of those may be Star Wars).
Well, Marines have very large footprints, remember that. A car weighs a ton and only a small part of the car touches the ground, but it does not fall through the ground anyway.
But sending them into a muddy swamp is probably still not the best idea.
Ashiraya wrote: Well, Marines have very large footprints, remember that. A car weighs a ton and only a small part of the car touches the ground, but it does not fall through the ground anyway.
But sending them into a muddy swamp is probably still not the best idea.
Yes, but things like bridges must maintain the entirety of the car's weight, regardless of it's ground bearing pressure per square inch.
For marines, that means that stairs, the ground floor of a house if it has a basement, every upper story (including the entirety of some Imperial Hives), etc. must all bear their weight.
It's also interesting to consider that SM warships must be slower to accelerate, what with all the crewmembers weighing half a ton (instead of 1/20th).
Ashiraya wrote: With 1000 Space Marines per chapter, you can't have all of the ship crew be Astartes.
Or how the ships Astartes hold in their fleets are the size of entire towns or cities and how even a hundred thousand space marines wouldn't even have a noticeable drain on the acceleration speed.
It's space. The gravity aboard the vessel is artificial. The mass of even 1000 Marines aboard is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall mass of the ship (and its resulting inertia). The engines are not taxed to any real degree moving a fully-loaded vessel than they are one piloted by servitors.
The structural integrity of a stairwell is going to depend greatly on the nature and materials of its construction... but most found in any modern commercial building are capable of supporting thousands of pounds of weight. Marines going up and down them would not fall through the floor. Given that there are dot-coms that have their one-ton server racks on the fifth or sixth floors (or higher) of commercial office buildings, Space Marines likewise won't be falling through the floor.
The pilots/operators of the SM vehicles are accounted for. It's generally the Reserve Company, though this may vary by Chapter. In some cases, it's Chapter Serfs or Servitors.
I really do wonder how heavy Brother Genericus in his PA would be.
People's opinions on Marine size are all over the place. I have seen people argue for everything between 6'6" and 10'.
I won't bother with trying to find a consensus because that's empirically proven impossible. Instead, I'm going to ask it like this (do count in armour):
If a Marine is 7', how heavy would he be?
7'6"?
8'?
9'?
Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you...
I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost...
not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get.
How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
Another thing to remember about an Astartes mindset. They HATE, and it is a long lived hate, between hypno indoctrination and chapter traditions, they would not be nice "people" to interact with. the idea of cuddly friendly astartes (Salamanders etc...) would be far from the norm imo. You get the nice versions in fiction because you cant have your posterboys be insufferable jerks, but if you think about it, that's what they would be.
Yeah, on the height thing. I tend towards the numbers Jes presented as well. With armor on you end up around 8 feet, plus. I think a lot of people underestimate just how BIG 7' tall is, combined with probably 400lbs of mass, thats GINORMOUS. Seriously, look at Hong Man Choi, the korean MMA fighter, now picture adding about 100 or so lbs of muscle mass to him. That's about what an unarmored Astartes is going to look like.
Psienesis wrote: It's space. The gravity aboard the vessel is artificial. The mass of even 1000 Marines aboard is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall mass of the ship (and its resulting inertia). The engines are not taxed to any real degree moving a fully-loaded vessel than they are one piloted by servitors.
The structural integrity of a stairwell is going to depend greatly on the nature and materials of its construction... but most found in any modern commercial building are capable of supporting thousands of pounds of weight. Marines going up and down them would not fall through the floor. Given that there are dot-coms that have their one-ton server racks on the fifth or sixth floors (or higher) of commercial office buildings, Space Marines likewise won't be falling through the floor.
Probably my favorite part of the Black Library is when a Deathwing Terminator is walking through a wooden house and falls right through the stairs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep wrote: Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you...
I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost...
not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get.
How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
Except everything outside of the Tau is gigantic and overbuilt. There's no such thing as small buildings in 40k outside of Tau Space.
Psienesis wrote: It's space. The gravity aboard the vessel is artificial. The mass of even 1000 Marines aboard is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall mass of the ship (and its resulting inertia). The engines are not taxed to any real degree moving a fully-loaded vessel than they are one piloted by servitors.
Fair enough.
The structural integrity of a stairwell is going to depend greatly on the nature and materials of its construction... but most found in any modern commercial building are capable of supporting thousands of pounds of weight. Marines going up and down them would not fall through the floor. Given that there are dot-coms that have their one-ton server racks on the fifth or sixth floors (or higher) of commercial office buildings, Space Marines likewise won't be falling through the floor.
Well, a company of marines are a hundred of those one-ton server racks... so yeah.
Who stuffs a company of Marines into one building?
Keep wrote: Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you... I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost... not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get. How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
I know perfectly well how large 9' is (which is the fluff example I choose to follow). Despite some really wanting it otherwise (to the point of being snide to those who disagree), Goodwin's figure is not more canon than any other depiction or description. STCs can easily be adjusted to flatly increase the size of the components, and as Wyzilla says the interior of Imperial structures is HUGE. Unless you want them to go into an underhive. Why the hell are you sending your post-human super-elite special forces into an underhive?
Please, let's not try to debate which height is '''''''correct'''''', it's been done before and always failed.
I was asking about weight, though, not height. Still looking for opinions on this:
Spoiler:
Ashiraya wrote: I really do wonder how heavy Brother Genericus in his PA would be.
People's opinions on Marine size are all over the place. I have seen people argue for everything between 6'6" and 10'.
I won't bother with trying to find a consensus because that's empirically proven impossible. Instead, I'm going to ask it like this (do count in armour):
If a Marine is 7', how heavy would he be? 7'6"? 8'? 9'?
At 7'6" they're said to be 750 pounds. The normal weight variance for a large-framed man, at 6" jumps (so between a 6'0" man and a 6'6" man) is an average of 25 pounds, at the upper limit of a healthy BMI (which, let's face it, Space Marines would be).
Based on that commonly-used fan-made image of a Space Marine compared to a basketball player, the 7'6" SM is over twice the weight of the 7'6" basketball player (750 lbs vs 350 lbs). That suggests that the increased bone and muscle mass, implants, etc. of the Space Marine more than doubles his weight, but only marginally above a 100% increase.
So, simplifying the math a bit:
At 7'0": 700 pounds
At 7'6": 750 pounds
At 8'0": 800 pounds
At 8'6": 850 pounds
At 9'0": 900 pounds
At 9'6": 950 pounds
At 10'0": 1000 pounds
Psienesis wrote: The normal weight variance for a large-framed man, at 6" jumps (so between a 6'0" man and a 6'6" man) is an average of 25 pounds, at the upper limit of a healthy BMI (which, let's face it, Space Marines would be).
Huh? I'm sure they'd be far outside the BMI list, just as strongmen and other very large people are. Hafþór JúlÃus "Thor" Björnsson (the latest Ser Clegane in Game of Thrones) looks nothing out of the ordinary in pictures, until you get a picture with him and a normal 5' 6'' or so Lena Hedey who comes up to his shoulder - barely. The guy is 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) and 195 kg (430 lb). That's HUGE and HEAVY. BMI calculator says 46.0, and 30+ is obesity. Under 25 is "normal"...
That guy would be a perfectly fine Space Marine. And he already weighs over twice what I weigh, as a somewhat overweight man at about 177cm tall.
The problem with that is there's very little data to base a mathematical model on. While Bjornsson is definitely a huge dude, huge dudes like him are such a small percentage of the population that tables that track their height and weight don't really exist.
Ashiraya wrote: Now imagine if he had far more muscle, bigger bones, extra organs and so on, and if he was 7/8/9 feet et cetera.
There's really no need for him to be bigger than that. But let's say another 100 pounds of muscle and bones (we don't actually know if the bones of marines are heavier, just strengthened). They'd already be closer to 250 kilos - and add in the armor. You'd need to use freight elevators if you wanted to bring up a full squad at once.
Keep in mind, human bones have 5 times higher of a strength/mass ratio than steel does-- it's immensely strong for its weight, but bones are also incredibly light, as well. Most likely, if the bones are stronger, they're probably heavier. How much so is anyone's guess.
Ashiraya wrote: Makes me wonder if bone armour as a concept really is that stupid after all?
Not stupid at all, it's just really difficult to find a piece of bone large enough to for a chest piece AND being able to reshape said bone piece into a chest piece without reducing its integrity.
Melissia wrote: Keep in mind, human bones have 5 times higher of a strength/mass ratio than steel does-- it's immensely strong for its weight, but bones are also incredibly light, as well. Most likely, if the bones are stronger, they're probably heavier. How much so is anyone's guess.
I'm fairly certain that they said that the bones were "denser", so it seems like they would be heavier than normal on top of being stronger than normal.
Guys... 195 kilograms (430 lbs). For a single man "only" 2.06meters (6'9'') tall. And he's pretty impressive already. The famous marine poster is of one 7' tall in full armor.
It might not be a concern for a great starship to carry a company of them, but if they weigh 400 kilos instead of 200 you will get noticable effects for squad ground transports. I mean a Rhino, for example. It can carry ten men in flak or carapace, or ten SoB in Angel Pattern PA, or ten Space Marines in Astartes Pa. How much farther and faster can it carry the men, or the SoB, if the marines weigh half a ton before donning armor?
Hmm... And how much does the average SoB weigh with and without armor, btw? She's just a "normal" woman at peak physical condition.
Ashiraya wrote: With 1000 Space Marines per chapter, you can't have all of the ship crew be Astartes.
Don't people constantly say how that number is wrong? like, how there must be more marines to crew their tanks and whatnot?
Read the numbers GW actually gives in their "Chapter at full strength org chart!" bits in some of the books. A thousand is the on-paper strength and includes only those Marines assigned as infantry in the ten Companies, depending on the Chapter you've also got the Armoury, the Librarium, the Apothecarion, the Reclusiam, the Honour Guard, Dreadnaughts, any extra command staff, and the Fleet you're looking at around 1,500-1,700 actual Space Marines in a 1,000-Marine Chapter.
(Consider: GW presented a Battle Company in a box back at the first Apocalypse release in 4e, the box contained 106 Marines on foot, three Dreadnaughts, and eight vehicles canonically crewed by two Marines each for a grand total of 125 Space Marines in a 100-man Battle Company)
So, to chip in my bit, I'm going to go mostly from a TT angle, as that's the only place where there's a real attempt at a more objective definition, rather than a plot device for various authors.
Bolters: Like others have said, I think you've overplayed them. Bolters have the same armor penetrating power as a .30 - .50 caliber bullet (aka heavy stubbers). Don't get me wrong, that's some decent punch, and regular body armor won't stand up to it, but it has its limitations. It will severely wound unarmored targets and yeah, probably blow a limb off here and there with the occasional head splash on unlucky targets, but bolters aren't rapid fire missile launchers that mow down everything in their path. They're a high-powered small arm, nothing more.
Remember that carapace is good against it, and it can't hurt vehicles with any amount of bulletproofing.
Chainswords: They could easily have something in the machine that cleans the blade as it spins, at least enough to keep it working.
No, chainswords aren't going to be a finesse weapon, and no, they're not going to cleave someone in half with a flick of the wrist.
What a chainsword would be good for, though, is making instant casualties. You get slashed with a knife and it would really suck, but you could keep fighting, while even a gentle tap from a chainsaw is going to leave you screaming and bleeding profusely. What's good about chainswords is they're a sort of fix it and forget it weapon - just hit them once and move on to the next target.
Space marines are all about speed and maneuverability. They can't afford to waste time poking someone, waiting for them to go down. It's a shock and awe weapon.
Power weapons: Where does this idea that they're hot coming from? Everything I've read has talked about energy fields disrupting things.
Furthermore, melting stuff doesn't make sense when you consider that it's the shape of the weapon that determines its ability to bypass armor, which wouldn't matter if it was just a heat stick.
Plus, they don't get "gets hot", nor do they augment the strength of the user (once again unless they're a certain shape, but not another).
Meltaguns: Just remember that they're nothing like flamers. You can't hold down the trigger and laser-heat-beam an entire squad down with a single sweep. I like to think of them more like grenade launchers where there's a big attack and then a bunch of downtime.
Power armor: Once again, I think you're overplaying it. Remember that it's not proof against mere hot-shot lasguns, and it fails shockingly quickly to massed gunfire.
What's good about power armor, ironically, isn't the armor. It's good because of the interface with the space marine's other augmentations along with the other utility gear. Power armor allows a space marine to fight in any condition or circumstance at full strength. That's what makes it good.
Protection-wise, it's only a little better than carapace armor. Still better than a flak vest by a healthy margin, but it's not going to save you from getting chewed up if you're stupid.
TDA: Somewhat the same is true here. It's how the system augments the marine, not the thickness of the armor itself that's important.
Of course, you can also shoot it with an anti-tank weapon and it might just bounce off, so it is, you know, pretty good as far as armor goes.
Do remember, though, it still does fail against weight of fire. You can't be stupid with it, especially given how expensive/impossible it would be to replace. It's given to only the most experienced vets for the sake of the armor, more than the vet.
Physiology: 600 lbs. seems more than too much. I'm a tall guy, but you'd have to nearly triple my weight to get up to that point. The Rock is a huge guy, and even he only weighs 260.
Also don't forget the most important part of their physiology - their brain. A space marine is capable of genuine multitasking, and can sort out different information coming in from different senses as separate streams of data. They can be plotting strategy and giving orders while checking out their IR scanner and hacking someone apart with a chainsword simultaneously.
It's that superhuman intelligence that is the space marine's greatest weapon. It's why everything else about them seems so good. It drives me nuts when people assume that space marines are stupid and it's all down to their gear, not how they use it. They win battles at a million to one not because their armor or bolters are a million times better, but because they only get into situations where a million could possibly be beaten in that way. They use strategy to ensure victory before their equipment is even brought out of the locker.
Psychology: As the result of the above, space marines are nearly insane. They're sort of like human beings trying to engineer themselves to be eldar, and we all know what happened to them.
The end result is an endless, desperate attempt to repress neurosis. Hence the endless prayer and mind-focusing litanies and heavy-handed chaplains. You need look no further than the constant drain on SM numbers by them flipping to chaos or the wide array of semi-chaos loyalist armies (flesh tearers, etc. etc.) to see just how barely in control they are of the entire situation.
Ailaros wrote: So, to chip in my bit, I'm going to go mostly from a TT angle, as that's the only place where there's a real attempt at a more objective definition, rather than a plot device for various authors.
Bolters: Like others have said, I think you've overplayed them. Bolters have the same armor penetrating power as a .30 - .50 caliber bullet (aka heavy stubbers). Don't get me wrong, that's some decent punch, and regular body armor won't stand up to it, but it has its limitations. It will severely wound unarmored targets and yeah, probably blow a limb off here and there with the occasional head splash on unlucky targets, but bolters aren't rapid fire missile launchers that mow down everything in their path. They're a high-powered small arm, nothing more.
Remember that carapace is good against it, and it can't hurt vehicles with any amount of bulletproofing.
Chainswords: They could easily have something in the machine that cleans the blade as it spins, at least enough to keep it working.
No, chainswords aren't going to be a finesse weapon, and no, they're not going to cleave someone in half with a flick of the wrist.
What a chainsword would be good for, though, is making instant casualties. You get slashed with a knife and it would really suck, but you could keep fighting, while even a gentle tap from a chainsaw is going to leave you screaming and bleeding profusely. What's good about chainswords is they're a sort of fix it and forget it weapon - just hit them once and move on to the next target.
Space marines are all about speed and maneuverability. They can't afford to waste time poking someone, waiting for them to go down. It's a shock and awe weapon.
Power weapons: Where does this idea that they're hot coming from? Everything I've read has talked about energy fields disrupting things.
Furthermore, melting stuff doesn't make sense when you consider that it's the shape of the weapon that determines its ability to bypass armor, which wouldn't matter if it was just a heat stick.
Plus, they don't get "gets hot", nor do they augment the strength of the user (once again unless they're a certain shape, but not another).
Meltaguns: Just remember that they're nothing like flamers. You can't hold down the trigger and laser-heat-beam an entire squad down with a single sweep. I like to think of them more like grenade launchers where there's a big attack and then a bunch of downtime.
Power armor: Once again, I think you're overplaying it. Remember that it's not proof against mere hot-shot lasguns, and it fails shockingly quickly to massed gunfire.
What's good about power armor, ironically, isn't the armor. It's good because of the interface with the space marine's other augmentations along with the other utility gear. Power armor allows a space marine to fight in any condition or circumstance at full strength. That's what makes it good.
Protection-wise, it's only a little better than carapace armor. Still better than a flak vest by a healthy margin, but it's not going to save you from getting chewed up if you're stupid.
TDA: Somewhat the same is true here. It's how the system augments the marine, not the thickness of the armor itself that's important.
Of course, you can also shoot it with an anti-tank weapon and it might just bounce off, so it is, you know, pretty good as far as armor goes.
Do remember, though, it still does fail against weight of fire. You can't be stupid with it, especially given how expensive/impossible it would be to replace. It's given to only the most experienced vets for the sake of the armor, more than the vet.
Physiology: 600 lbs. seems more than too much. I'm a tall guy, but you'd have to nearly triple my weight to get up to that point. The Rock is a huge guy, and even he only weighs 260.
Also don't forget the most important part of their physiology - their brain. A space marine is capable of genuine multitasking, and can sort out different information coming in from different senses as separate streams of data. They can be plotting strategy and giving orders while checking out their IR scanner and hacking someone apart with a chainsword simultaneously.
It's that superhuman intelligence that is the space marine's greatest weapon. It's why everything else about them seems so good. It drives me nuts when people assume that space marines are stupid and it's all down to their gear, not how they use it. They win battles at a million to one not because their armor or bolters are a million times better, but because they only get into situations where a million could possibly be beaten in that way. They use strategy to ensure victory before their equipment is even brought out of the locker.
Psychology: As the result of the above, space marines are nearly insane. They're sort of like human beings trying to engineer themselves to be eldar, and we all know what happened to them.
The end result is an endless, desperate attempt to repress neurosis. Hence the endless prayer and mind-focusing litanies and heavy-handed chaplains. You need look no further than the constant drain on SM numbers by them flipping to chaos or the wide array of semi-chaos loyalist armies (flesh tearers, etc. etc.) to see just how barely in control they are of the entire situation.
Bolters are 20mm rocket propelled grenades.
A normal human hit by them will simply cease to exist in a coherent form. Light vehicles hit by them are also not only going to be penned, but likely shredded with large volumes of fire. Bolters are the same caliber of rounds used to down aircraft in WWII, or light autocannons even in the modern day.
Indeed. Angelus-calibre bolt rounds in the FFG roleplaying games are 1.0, Hundred Calibre - i.e. twice the calibre of an M2 Heavy Machine Gun. Normal people don't survive getting hit by **** like that.
Powered armour is capable of resisting it - but sustained fire can punch through even the plates. Terminator plate can stop it.
And yes, a Chapter will be about double the 'book' numbers once you add in command squads, honour guard, librarium, armoury, tank crews, warship crews, etc, etc.
The Warships are mostly crewed by servitors and chapter serfs, but even with a handful of marines aboard (the escort-class ships like the Gladius supposedly have the equivalent of a squad aboard in command positions) you're probably adding in another half company equivalent across the fleet.
The acid-spitting thing also comes up in Brothers of the Snake, where a marine (who has lost his helmet and is pinned in place by an enemy) uses his betcher's gland to blind his opponent briefly and buy enough time to kill his foe.
Ailaros, since you use the game as your fluff viewpoint, I assume you are also convinced that an average Imperial Guard Major outside of armour can survive three times as many heavy bolters shells as a stormtrooper can, while the latter is wearing armour?
Also, if we are using game mechanics, then chainswords would make no difference to fists at all.
Simply put, the game is BS that has nothing to do with the lore.
Marines are tougher/faster/better at everything than most humans.
An IG major is not magically tougher and the wound mechanic are both obviously gamey mechanics, I mean, a Marine taking a direct shot from a meltagun should die 100%, same for most people, but they'll survive once in a while on the TT, shouldn't happen unless they have force fields.
Other example, PA doesn't fails 66% of the time, but it has weaknesses, same for Terminator armor.
Ashiraya wrote: I know perfectly well how large 9' is (which is the fluff example I choose to follow). Despite some really wanting it otherwise (to the point of being snide to those who disagree), Goodwin's figure is not more canon than any other depiction or description. STCs can easily be adjusted to flatly increase the size of the components, and as Wyzilla says the interior of Imperial structures is HUGE. Unless you want them to go into an underhive. Why the hell are you sending your post-human super-elite special forces into an underhive?
No STC can't just be upscaled, you made that up. Or do you have proof?
Official Imperial Structures are huge yes. But not regular buildings where workers and lowlife live. Because if those are excessively big you are wasting a lot of space. Build smaller, and you can cram a lot more workers in the same place.
Why you would send marines into an underhive? Cmon... Because gak can dwell there that is dangerous. Cultists, weird mutants, tyranids, etc.
Oh and imagine... 9" tall. But their giant guns that are fitted to their size fire .75 cal bolts. That'd be like fixing pins for them.
Marines are tougher/faster/better at everything than most humans.
An IG major is not magically tougher and the wound mechanic are both obviously gamey mechanics, I mean, a Marine taking a direct shot from a meltagun should die 100%, same for most people, but they'll survive once in a while on the TT, shouldn't happen unless they have force fields.
Other example, PA doesn't fails 66% of the time, but it has weaknesses, same for Terminator armor.
Depends on the mark of armor. Errant is practically flawless, and the only flaws of Aquila and Corvus are the knee joints and neck, although those can be fixed by adding a gorget. Iron Armor is only good for frontal assaults and suffers from mobility issues, and the Crusade Pattern is horrifically outdated. MK IV has the best sensor suite but still suffers from mobility issues.
Those are little details not really representable in the TT, just like the Kriegsmen lasgun shooting higher power beams, but not to the point to match hellguns.
No STC can't just be upscaled, you made that up. Or do you have proof?
Guardsmen can't climb. Or do you have proof?
It is obvious. Even at 7'6", you're not going to fit 10 of these guys, in full armour, into the same vehicle that also transports a maximum of, say, 10 inquisitorial henchmen. Even at lower estimates, Marines take up massive space. SM vehicles must be larger. Hell, look at the Land Raider Crusader. Try to fit 8 Terminators into it, or 12 Terminators and a Captain into a Spartan. You will fail. The models are out of scale, but you still need absolutely humongous vehicles to fit things like that.
Official Imperial Structures are huge yes. But not regular buildings where workers and lowlife live. Because if those are excessively big you are wasting a lot of space. Build smaller, and you can cram a lot more workers in the same place. Why you would send marines into an underhive? Cmon... Because gak can dwell there that is dangerous. Cultists, weird mutants, tyranids, etc.
You have Arbites for jobs like that. If you have enemies so lethal so you can't do anything else than request Space Marines inside your underhive, then you destroy the underhive. Underhive scum are possibly the most disposable people in the Imperium, short of penal legionnaires.
Oh and imagine... 9" tall. But their giant guns that are fitted to their size fire .75 cal bolts. That'd be like fixing pins for them.
Yes, because GW calibers make sense. Oh wait, is it a Leman Russ I see over there?
No STC can't just be upscaled, you made that up. Or do you have proof?
Guardsmen can't climb. Or do you have proof?
It is obvious. Even at 7'6", you're not going to fit 10 of these guys, in full armour, into the same vehicle that also transports a maximum of, say, 10 inquisitorial henchmen. Even at lower estimates, Marines take up massive space. SM vehicles must be larger. Hell, look at the Land Raider Crusader. Try to fit 8 Terminators into it, or 12 Terminators and a Captain into a Spartan. You will fail. The models are out of scale, but you still need absolutely humongous vehicles to fit things like that.
Official Imperial Structures are huge yes. But not regular buildings where workers and lowlife live. Because if those are excessively big you are wasting a lot of space. Build smaller, and you can cram a lot more workers in the same place.
Why you would send marines into an underhive? Cmon... Because gak can dwell there that is dangerous. Cultists, weird mutants, tyranids, etc.
You have Arbites for jobs like that. If you have enemies so lethal so you can't do anything else than request Space Marines inside your underhive, then you destroy the underhive. Underhive scum are possibly the most disposable people in the Imperium, short of penal legionnaires.
Oh and imagine... 9" tall. But their giant guns that are fitted to their size fire .75 cal bolts. That'd be like fixing pins for them.
Yes, because GW calibers make sense. Oh wait, is it a Leman Russ I see over there?
\
You realize on the table vehicles are not to scale right?
There is no sane reason to assume an STC can just be upscaled, they were made THOUSANDS OF YEARS before an Astartes was even a concept. It stands to logic that they follow a STANDARD that fits normal Terrans, ie not 9 feet tall. (even though everything Hooman in the universe is stupidly huge.) It's right there in the name. STANDARD, ie, you press a button and you get a toaster, not you turn a dial, then press a button and you get a giant toaster.
Ashiraya wrote: It is obvious. Even at 7'6", you're not going to fit 10 of these guys, in full armour, into the same vehicle that also transports a maximum of, say, 10 inquisitorial henchmen. Even at lower estimates, Marines take up massive space. SM vehicles must be larger. Hell, look at the Land Raider Crusader. Try to fit 8 Terminators into it, or 12 Terminators and a Captain into a Spartan. You will fail. The models are out of scale, but you still need absolutely humongous vehicles to fit things like that.
I was talking about the Rhino specifically, not the Landraider. And no, if your marines are not that large in the first place you dont need incredibly larger vehicles. Because the Cargo space only needs to fit 9 marines, the Sergeant drives in the front next to the driver. As Marines with 7'3" are not insanely bigger then regular humans, they can take up seated positions, provided it is of the same relative size as a chimera.
Keep wrote: Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you...
I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost...
not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get.
How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
Except everything outside of the Tau is gigantic and overbuilt. There's no such thing as small buildings in 40k outside of Tau Space.
This isn't true. This is just fan myth that gets repeated and people start to believe it.
The reality is that plenty of times things in 40K have been described as small and claustrophobic. Just because there are depictions of vast things doesn't preclude the existence of small things.
The point is not that a Space Marine has x inches wide shoulders, but rather the picture is to illustrate the point that they are much bulkier than one might be led to believe.
Ashiraya wrote: To be fair, it is made by a guy who makes GW art.
The point is not that a Space Marine has x inches wide shoulders, but rather the picture is to illustrate the point that they are much bulkier than one might be led to believe.
He made art for GW decades ago. Not to mention the idea of Power Armor seems to completely fly over Sibbering's head, especially how it's powered with synthetic muscles.
Sibbering has his very own special ideas about the 40k universe... like that lasguns function like an electro shocker, nonlethal most of the time and stuff like that...
Wyzilla wrote:Bolters are 20mm rocket propelled grenades.
A normal human hit by them will simply cease to exist in a coherent form.
No, it wouldn't. A normal human wearing a bomb-proof vest is wearing enough armor to shrug off a few hits from a boltgun. Bolters likewise can't hurt a taurox driving at them, and that's little more than an armored car.
Also, don't forget that caliber isn't the only thing that matters.
Note that both bullets on the left are both .50 cal. One of them can punch through two inches of steel plate, while the other struggles with kevlar. How much powder and what kind of bullets they are made a world of difference.
Same with the bolter. Even if they're 20mm, that doesn't mean that they're backed up by a half pound of gunpowder and can shoot down airplanes at altitude. Heck, a 12 ga. shotgun is also 20mm, but you're not going to see someone use buckshot to take down a 747...
Space Marines take a lot more space, and the artist here even undersized the armour (just look at the hips).
Apparently the Astartes power armor is even more skintight than the Sororitas one .
Yeah, Sibbering at times tends to go off a cliff and make stuff that doesn't even resemble something remotely sensible. An actual astartes outside of armor would probably look something like this guy.
Wyzilla wrote:Bolters are 20mm rocket propelled grenades.
A normal human hit by them will simply cease to exist in a coherent form.
No, it wouldn't. A normal human wearing a bomb-proof vest is wearing enough armor to shrug off a few hits from a boltgun. Bolters likewise can't hurt a taurox driving at them, and that's little more than an armored car.
Also, don't forget that caliber isn't the only thing that matters.
Note that both bullets on the left are both .50 cal. One of them can punch through two inches of steel plate, while the other struggles with kevlar. How much powder and what kind of bullets they are made a world of difference.
Same with the bolter. Even if they're 20mm, that doesn't mean that they're backed up by a half pound of gunpowder and can shoot down airplanes at altitude. Heck, a 12 ga. shotgun is also 20mm, but you're not going to see someone use buckshot to take down a 747...
I think the fact that the Bolt would go THROUGH the vest before detonating would make a world of difference. Plus, that person wouldn't be able to just "shrug it off" even if he did survive; that's be like shrugging off getting kicked in the face by Bruce Lee as hard as he possibly can.
Wyzilla wrote:Bolters are 20mm rocket propelled grenades.
A normal human hit by them will simply cease to exist in a coherent form.
No, it wouldn't. A normal human wearing a bomb-proof vest is wearing enough armor to shrug off a few hits from a boltgun. Bolters likewise can't hurt a taurox driving at them, and that's little more than an armored car.
Also, don't forget that caliber isn't the only thing that matters.
Note that both bullets on the left are both .50 cal. One of them can punch through two inches of steel plate, while the other struggles with kevlar. How much powder and what kind of bullets they are made a world of difference.
Same with the bolter. Even if they're 20mm, that doesn't mean that they're backed up by a half pound of gunpowder and can shoot down airplanes at altitude. Heck, a 12 ga. shotgun is also 20mm, but you're not going to see someone use buckshot to take down a 747...
Except we also know bolters are long rounds given their range in FFG and the Lore.
And again, stop using the TT to justify anything. The 40KTT is a horribly outdated, pathetic system that is several decades old and requires the use of an archaic six sided dice. The entire TT is senseless and stupid and needs to be completely demolished and rebooted in a more advanced, effecient system using something like a ten or twenty sided die to actually support advanced mechanics compared to the 6x (Y) system of rolling. It should never be used to justify anything as an actual "real life" 40k, that's what the Lore and RPG's are for.
The tabletop meanwhile is just a poorly designed, ancient game that makes zero practical sense.
40K as a game is like that old crippled horse that you need to shoot through the head for it's own good.
Melissia wrote: Well then Wyzilla, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
Using the TT to judge anything is asinine and silly. It's an outdated system that, objectively, is a bad game. Using it to determine the ballistics of weapons it features is such a hysterical notion that I cannot decide whether to laugh or embed my head in the nearest desk out of complete disdain for such a silly notion. Especially when FFG made a far superior system, or when GW has published hundreds of books for us to go over and dissect.
This is the same game system where 7.62mm and .600 Express would be lobbed together as generic "autoguns", or how lasguns universally perform the exact same way (when we know they explicitly don't), or power armor be penned by bayonets. Or people wearing flak jackets survive getting shot by .50 BMG.
I can't even comprehend why anyone would suggest the TT be used for anything. It's garbage quite frankly that people (including me) largely play just because it's 40k. But the system and the rules cannot be extrapolated into actual lore or any in-depth analysis, it doesn't make sense. It's far better to run calculations on quotations from the Black Library or go into FFG's system, which used a D100.
You mean the system where I could make a Rank 8 Ascended Magos who, when strapped naked to the wall, would be completely unharmed by an Astartes bolter fired full-auto into his eye for all eternity?
You mean the system where I could make a Rank 8 Ascended Magos who, when strapped naked to the wall, would be completely unharmed by an Astartes bolter fired full-auto into his eye for all eternity?
Yup, good system.
Well he is a psyker.
Besides, it's better then 40k where flak vests get saves against even heavy stubbers when the KE would splatter you even if your armor stopped the round from penning.
You mean the system where I could make a Rank 8 Ascended Magos who, when strapped naked to the wall, would be completely unharmed by an Astartes bolter fired full-auto into his eye for all eternity?
Yup, good system.
Well he is a psyker.
Besides, it's better then 40k where flak vests get saves against even heavy stubbers when the KE would splatter you even if your armor stopped the round from penning.
Since when were Magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus psykers? And not really that much better.... like at all. It has its own silly idiosyncrasies.
You mean the system where I could make a Rank 8 Ascended Magos who, when strapped naked to the wall, would be completely unharmed by an Astartes bolter fired full-auto into his eye for all eternity?
Yup, good system.
Well he is a psyker.
Besides, it's better then 40k where flak vests get saves against even heavy stubbers when the KE would splatter you even if your armor stopped the round from penning.
Since when were Magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus psykers? And not really that much better.... like at all. It has its own silly idiosyncrasies.
Oh lol, for some reason I was thinking you referring to a Genestealer Magus. But for the Magos, they're the Mechanicum. Something like a body made of adamantanium is not impossible, but even likely depending on the wealth and influence of the Magos.
Elite Skitari after all can give Astartes a run for their money, or even rip them to shreds and shrug off bolter rounds.
Or, maybe just understand that game rules, no matter what the system, will never be an accurate representation of a universe since game rules are a compromise of playability.
Old timers will remember games like Phoenix Command that tried to simulate battles as accurately as possible. And it took hours to play ridiculously short combat encounters, lol.
In the end, the tabletop game is making a simple ruleset predicated on selling miniature plastic toys and splits degrees of difficulty into 16.6% segments.
The RPG is based on an essentially uncapped sliding scale of heroic play. Neither should ever be looked to for questions of canoncity or of accurate mechanical representation.
Honestly I skipped a bit, but I did read the original post.
On chainswords I agree that the blade would be spinning incredibly fast as well as having teeth with a monomolecular edge, this would make it nearly as effective as a power sword against lightly armored opponents yet still acceptable against other foes in power armor. Also it would make sense that they would be trained to go for the soft parts of armor at the joints as opposed to thick ceramite plates. On whether or not it would get gunked up during battle, I would say probably not due to the incredibly high speed of the blade puree-ing any fleshy bits that don't wind up clearing off due to centrifugal force as well as anti-fouling vanes inside the shroud.
On bolter rounds: As I read it there is a kicker charge (so much for caseless ammunition- retconned fluff evidently due to sculpts having ejection ports and ill-informed artists portraying shells being ejected) that gives a high muzzle velocity which overcomes the real world drawbacks of gyro-jet weapons. However this kicker charge is too weak to propel the .75 cal/20mm round more than a few dozen yards/meters downrange. Within that space the rounds rocket motor and stabilization gizmos kick in and for a few moments the shell reaches it's peak velocity.
I also agree that a bolter shell is designed to penetrate a target then detonate for maximum effect, however there is some speculation as to how that would affect heavier armored targets that weren't penetrated. Some seemed to feel as though there would be little to no effect other than a slight ringing in the ears, however I submit that just because the round fails to penetrate it is still fully capable of full detonation. This also could crack armor, weakening it for the next round to wreck the target, or cause enough concussive damage to scramble the soft tissues of the wearer, at least enough to take them out of the fight.
On power swords and power axes: I would submit that these weapons are sonic in nature. The blade of the weapon is subject to a high rate of vibration which causes the light to coruscate along the blade which also heats the monomolecular edge. The vibration coupled with the heat and single molecule sharpness cuts through hardened materials like the hot razor through butter.
This principle is also involved in the operation of Lightning Claws with the added power of a disruption field from the power-fist base that the claws are mounted on, which is what makes LC's so utterly devastating.
On other power weapons (fists, mauls, thunder hammers). As others have said already, and said well I feel, there is a disruption field generated by these weapons which weakens the molecular bond of the material it comes in contact with allowing the wielder to smash through the medium like so much lime jello.
Melta: Already been said, High energy, short range microwave burst which heats up the target to its melting point.
Plasma: Let's just say there is a truely scientific reason as to why 'gets hot' is a viable concern for the trooper honored with the use of such a blessed weapon. As it is now if we could generate the amount of plasma that a plasma gun needs to put out; as soon as the shot were to leave the muzzle, everyone, friend and foe alike, would be bacon. Unless, of course, there were a way to maintain the magnetic field (jar?) around the shot until it impacted its target. There is more science than I care to go into @ 3 am, but that's the nutshell.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Or, maybe just understand that game rules, no matter what the system, will never be an accurate representation of a universe since game rules are a compromise of playability.
Old timers will remember games like Phoenix Command that tried to simulate battles as accurately as possible. And it took hours to play ridiculously short combat encounters, lol.
In the end, the tabletop game is making a simple ruleset predicated on selling miniature plastic toys and splits degrees of difficulty into 16.6% segments.
The RPG is based on an essentially uncapped sliding scale of heroic play. Neither should ever be looked to for questions of canoncity or of accurate mechanical representation.
Correct. Certain examples can be found in both, examples that make it obvious that neither could possibly represent canon.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Old timers will remember games like Phoenix Command that tried to simulate battles as accurately as possible. And it took hours to play ridiculously short combat encounters, lol.
Which is why most games make it either very simple (40Kd6 rolls and 1-10 stats) or very heroic (like how heroes hit most of the time with just about any attack). In RPGs you probably finish a small combat without even reloading since you're heroic enough to count the enemies and identify their guns in a split second, then one shot is one kill.
the TT is a very big simplification. There's no need to get anal about it. Having D100 in TT and all the detail you have in an RPG would make it unplayable.
That's like having a physical simulation down to atom level, just to determine how much force your body applies to the ground...
xraytango wrote: I also agree that a bolter shell is designed to penetrate a target then detonate for maximum effect, however there is some speculation as to how that would affect heavier armored targets that weren't penetrated. Some seemed to feel as though there would be little to no effect other than a slight ringing in the ears, however I submit that just because the round fails to penetrate it is still fully capable of full detonation. This also could crack armor, weakening it for the next round to wreck the target, or cause enough concussive damage to scramble the soft tissues of the wearer, at least enough to take them out of the fight.
Here's the thing about explosions outside of armor:
The explosion energy goes wherever there is the least resistance. And the least resistance is not where the armor is, it's the air around it. That's why the effect of an explosion outside of armor is very very limited compared to exploding inside. You need a substantially bigger explosion on the outside to achieve a similar affect like you would get inside.
Therefore you only get very little effect on the armor. Maybe fragments of the explosion hurt more vulnerable part, but it's not guaranteed.
If you have a partial penetration it could make a little crater into the armor, but the fragments from that explosion go into the opposite direction, away from the armor.
Basically, compare having a firecracker explode on your palm, vs having it explode while your hand is wrapped around it. In the former, you'll get a few burns at most, in the latter, you'll lose your fingers.
I think I may not have explained my point well enough.
The point being that the bolter round impacts on the outside of the armor and subsequently explodes will probably not vaporize the target, but it will dent/crater the armor and cause a percussive/concussive force to the target which would possibly cause everything from disorientation to disability. Dis ability in the sense of being knocked out or enough of the shockwave transferred to the wearer to disrupt internal organs.
And Star Wars isn't the only sci-fi setting to use vibrational edged weapons.
Everyone says that power blades work off of heat (due to some bad BL writing) I say that more logically the heat is a side effect of the energy transferrence down the length of the blade. This is actually everything from the interaction of the edge with the air around it as well as heat being a byproduct of energy transmission.
Also if the heat is the main reason for a power blade to work and that it heats up the material it is cutting through then the amount of heat needed would in fact melt the blade and make it useless for anything, therefore a sonic vibration paired with a monomolecular edge makes more sense while having the heat as a byproduct from mechanical interaction. Now the amount of heat generated by this product isn't enough to cause the failure of the blade but it is enough to aid in its passing through materials of lesser quality than the blade, as well as the equation of the force of the swing being focused on a point of impact the size of a molecule which is at the same time scraping aside molecules on either side of it as it heats that area (by way of friction) to a failure point, or at least enough to expand the space between those molecules a bit more as the blade passes through.
He made art for GW decades ago. Not to mention the idea of Power Armor seems to completely fly over Sibbering's head, especially how it's powered with synthetic muscles.
Um, it is powered by synthetic muscles, synthetic fibre power bundles to be exact. When you read fluff mentioning the whine of servos and the hiss of hydraulics the author hasn't got a fething clue about how power armour works.
Unfortunately that's getting more and more common these days, authors aren't doing their research first. That's why they write about 'retinal displays' and marines looking out through their helmet lenses; when they put their helmet on they 'see' through the suits auto-senses, they don't see their helmet at all.
He made art for GW decades ago. Not to mention the idea of Power Armor seems to completely fly over Sibbering's head, especially how it's powered with synthetic muscles.
Um, it is powered by synthetic muscles, synthetic fibre power bundles to be exact. When you read fluff mentioning the whine of servos and the hiss of hydraulics the author hasn't got a fething clue about how power armour works.
Unfortunately that's getting more and more common these days, authors aren't doing their research first. That's why they write about 'retinal displays' and marines looking out through their helmet lenses; when they put their helmet on they 'see' through the suits auto-senses, they don't see their helmet at all.
...
I was talking about how Sibbering seems to be a bit of an idiot and completely fails to account for the synthetic muscles in power armor. Or even the armor.
I was talking about how Sibbering seems to be a bit of an idiot and completely fails to account for the synthetic muscles in power armor. Or even the armor.
Wyzilla wrote: Using the TT to judge anything is asinine and silly. It's an outdated system that, objectively, is a bad game. Using it to determine the ballistics of weapons it features is such a hysterical notion that I cannot decide whether to laugh or embed my head in the nearest desk out of complete disdain for such a silly notion. Especially when FFG made a far superior system, or when GW has published hundreds of books for us to go over and dissect.
...
I can't even comprehend why anyone would suggest the TT be used for anything. It's garbage quite frankly that people (including me) largely play just because it's 40k.
Would it being a better 'game' make it more valid as a source? I don't see a causal relationship here. Is it about liking the game? does liking it make it a better source (actually I'd say yes, at least when taken as a better source for yourself, and not in an absolute sense[see discussion below]).
Wyzilla wrote: But the system and the rules cannot be extrapolated into actual lore or any in-depth analysis, it doesn't make sense.
It may seem absurd to you, but this:
Wyzilla wrote: . . .run calculations on quotations from the Black Library. . .
seems just as absurd to me. What? when a writer says: "he had the strength of 100 men" you going to determine the average strength of a man, and multiply it by 100 and treat that as a hard number?
To me that's . . . I don't even know where to begin with that. But if that's how you roll; so be it.
I maintain that the table-top game is as valid a source as any other. It behoves us to remember that 40K has (explicitly) no hard cannon, and fans are required (due to rampant inconsistency) to determine, for themselves, their own image of the 40K setting. To do that they have a variety of sources to chose from, from source books to novels to RPGs to computer games, to 'lore' books (like the Uplifting Primer & Xenobiology). Such sources may be from the core studio, a sub-department or attached business, or even a independent 3rd party. There is such a wealth of material, and soo much of it is inconsistent, fans find themselves deriving systems to make their own images of the setting coherent. We decide if one this is more valid than another for constructing our individual images of the setting, but these are choices. At a fundamental level, no source is better than any other. They all have their virtues and issues. None are created purely to accurately convey the setting precisely and scientifically, all are subservient to other requirements. The game may have to make 'compromises' to be balanced (YMMV), but the novels have to be entertaining, and are more than subject to poetic licence and (worse) poor writing. And don't even get me started on the computer games.
40K is not like other settings, cannon is individual and we all chose what works for us. These discussions can help inform that process, but there is huge room for different interpretations, and those people with different ideas are not the enemy to be chased off or shut down, they are our comrades, engaged in the same pursuit and love of this setting as we are, even if they are using different tools to do so.
Wyzilla wrote: . . .run calculations on quotations from the Black Library. . .
seems just as absurd to me. What? when a writer says: "he had the strength of 100 men" you going to determine the average strength of a man, and multiply it by 100 and treat that as a hard number?
Aye. You also have the books where marines die like flies, and the books where a squad (or even a single marine) cuts down dozens of enemies faster than they can react. So which one is a more "realistic" piece to extrapolate from?
Tabletop isn't a perfect measure either thanks to the 1-10 stats and d6 system, but that's where you fill it in with fluff later. The traitor IG may haved mowed down all those poor loyalist marines in the game, but as we know a casualty isn't necessarily dead but only unable to continue fighting. The guys hit by lascannons or melta are probably dust, those hit by plasma will need extensive surgery and bionics - the rest might be fine the next day or week, or just need to dig themself out from under the wall that fell on them when the battlecannon shot detonated nearby. Meanwhile the only fallen traitor guard that can be put back in the fight later is the guy who took a wound from a failed Dangerous Terrain test.
I think a lot of you are under-estimating the bolter. It has limited magazine capacity, limited magazines on the marine, yet is the basic weapon used and marines are reknowned for holding against great odds.
I imagine a bolter round is a mini grenade - when it hits it explodes and does major damage to soft targets within its blast radius.
A marine is trained and has the coordination to place his shots into a mass of oncoming enemies.
He aims for a target in the second row of attackers - it hits - the target is blasted apart and several others are either killed or wounded.
That was the first round of a burst that emptied the magazine - every round hit and took out several enemies with not overlap for maximum effectiveness.
The marine already had a spare clip coming up to bolter when the last round was fired.
Seconds later and the next magazine is being emptied.
That's not movie stuff, that's what a marine should be able to do, otherwise what is the point.
in response to the fluff part of this discussion,
i too have noticed the inconsistency in the stories. in response to the "how would this correlate to reality" part, i have had MANY daydreams about space marine battles. then, (unfortunately), inevitably, i remember that it's not real. so i guess what i'm trynna say is, how close (or far away) do you think we are to some of this tech?
Wyzilla wrote: Using the TT to judge anything is asinine and silly. It's an outdated system that, objectively, is a bad game. Using it to determine the ballistics of weapons it features is such a hysterical notion that I cannot decide whether to laugh or embed my head in the nearest desk out of complete disdain for such a silly notion. Especially when FFG made a far superior system, or when GW has published hundreds of books for us to go over and dissect.
...
I can't even comprehend why anyone would suggest the TT be used for anything. It's garbage quite frankly that people (including me) largely play just because it's 40k.
Would it being a better 'game' make it more valid as a source? I don't see a causal relationship here. Is it about liking the game? does liking it make it a better source (actually I'd say yes, at least when taken as a better source for yourself, and not in an absolute sense[see discussion below]).
Because the game was made to be a game. It is constrained by game mechanics and thus by its very existence is arbitrary. Especially when we have well over a hundred books of established lore to pour over.
Wyzilla wrote: But the system and the rules cannot be extrapolated into actual lore or any in-depth analysis, it doesn't make sense.
It may seem absurd to you, but this:
Wyzilla wrote: . . .run calculations on quotations from the Black Library. . .
seems just as absurd to me. What? when a writer says: "he had the strength of 100 men" you going to determine the average strength of a man, and multiply it by 100 and treat that as a hard number?
To me that's . . . I don't even know where to begin with that. But if that's how you roll; so be it.
I maintain that the table-top game is as valid a source as any other. It behoves us to remember that 40K has (explicitly) no hard cannon, and fans are required (due to rampant inconsistency) to determine, for themselves, their own image of the 40K setting. To do that they have a variety of sources to chose from, from source books to novels to RPGs to computer games, to 'lore' books (like the Uplifting Primer & Xenobiology). Such sources may be from the core studio, a sub-department or attached business, or even a independent 3rd party. There is such a wealth of material, and soo much of it is inconsistent, fans find themselves deriving systems to make their own images of the setting coherent. We decide if one this is more valid than another for constructing our individual images of the setting, but these are choices. At a fundamental level, no source is better than any other. They all have their virtues and issues. None are created purely to accurately convey the setting precisely and scientifically, all are subservient to other requirements. The game may have to make 'compromises' to be balanced (YMMV), but the novels have to be entertaining, and are more than subject to poetic licence and (worse) poor writing. And don't even get me started on the computer games.
40K is not like other settings, cannon is individual and we all chose what works for us. These discussions can help inform that process, but there is huge room for different interpretations, and those people with different ideas are not the enemy to be chased off or shut down, they are our comrades, engaged in the same pursuit and love of this setting as we are, even if they are using different tools to do so.
Obviously you do not take such things as "they have the strength of a hundred men" literally unless the author is clear that he fully intends for such a statement to be literal. Do you understand the concept of "feats"?
in response to the fluff part of this discussion,
i too have noticed the inconsistency in the stories. in response to the "how would this correlate to reality" part, i have had MANY daydreams about space marine battles. then, (unfortunately), inevitably, i remember that it's not real. so i guess what i'm trynna say is, how close (or far away) do you think we are to some of this tech?
prof. squirrel wrote: in response to the fluff part of this discussion,
i too have noticed the inconsistency in the stories. in response to the "how would this correlate to reality" part, i have had MANY daydreams about space marine battles. then, (unfortunately), inevitably, i remember that it's not real. so i guess what i'm trynna say is, how close (or far away) do you think we are to some of this tech?
There are weapons which can fire mini grenades which can be exploded at will. I saw a youtube video where targets were behind a wall. The round is fired through a window for instance and explodes just after it gets through the window hitting whatever is on the other side. Not mass-reactive, timed charge which is more advanced.
Wyzilla wrote: Obviously you do not take such things as "they have the strength of a hundred men" literally unless the author is clear that he fully intends for such a statement to be literal. Do you understand the concept of "feats"?
Not as such. I'm always fascinated by the ways people develop their own coherent image of 40K, and I've heard you mention 'feats' in passing before, so colour me intrigued.
'Feats' is a typical concept used in, say, versus debates. You look at all the impressive gak someone has pulled off, look at all the impressive gak someone else has pulled off, how easily they did it, and then compare it.
In this context, you're effectively taking everything a Marine has been capable of doing, eliminate impossible outliers (like the Mach 180 Marines) and then use that as the basis for their ability.
Obviously, it works better for some people than others. Some have a very narrow definition of 'possible', and vice versa.
Computron wrote: I think a lot of you are under-estimating the bolter. It has limited magazine capacity, limited magazines on the marine, yet is the basic weapon used and marines are reknowned for holding against great odds.
I imagine a bolter round is a mini grenade - when it hits it explodes and does major damage to soft targets within its blast radius.
A marine is trained and has the coordination to place his shots into a mass of oncoming enemies.
He aims for a target in the second row of attackers - it hits - the target is blasted apart and several others are either killed or wounded.
That was the first round of a burst that emptied the magazine - every round hit and took out several enemies with not overlap for maximum effectiveness.
The marine already had a spare clip coming up to bolter when the last round was fired.
Seconds later and the next magazine is being emptied.
That's not movie stuff, that's what a marine should be able to do, otherwise what is the point.
That does seem like the most logical way to build the Bolters, but after looking at the design of the Bolt and Bolter here http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter#WikiaArticle And after reading about how they react on the TT and in the fluff, it seems most logical and most likely that they would be designed to first penetrate the target, then explode, as they were originally intended to deal with not only humans, but also the innumerable monstrosities that one will encounter as a Space Marine. Now, these monstrous aliens will not be on the tabletop, as they are many and varied and would not bring in too much profit for GW to start making models for them.
