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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
With 1000 Space Marines per chapter, you can't have all of the ship crew be Astartes.

Don't people constantly say how that number is wrong? like, how there must be more marines to crew their tanks and whatnot?

Read the numbers GW actually gives in their "Chapter at full strength org chart!" bits in some of the books. A thousand is the on-paper strength and includes only those Marines assigned as infantry in the ten Companies, depending on the Chapter you've also got the Armoury, the Librarium, the Apothecarion, the Reclusiam, the Honour Guard, Dreadnaughts, any extra command staff, and the Fleet you're looking at around 1,500-1,700 actual Space Marines in a 1,000-Marine Chapter.

(Consider: GW presented a Battle Company in a box back at the first Apocalypse release in 4e, the box contained 106 Marines on foot, three Dreadnaughts, and eight vehicles canonically crewed by two Marines each for a grand total of 125 Space Marines in a 100-man Battle Company)

So, to chip in my bit, I'm going to go mostly from a TT angle, as that's the only place where there's a real attempt at a more objective definition, rather than a plot device for various authors.

Bolters: Like others have said, I think you've overplayed them. Bolters have the same armor penetrating power as a .30 - .50 caliber bullet (aka heavy stubbers). Don't get me wrong, that's some decent punch, and regular body armor won't stand up to it, but it has its limitations. It will severely wound unarmored targets and yeah, probably blow a limb off here and there with the occasional head splash on unlucky targets, but bolters aren't rapid fire missile launchers that mow down everything in their path. They're a high-powered small arm, nothing more.

Remember that carapace is good against it, and it can't hurt vehicles with any amount of bulletproofing.

Chainswords: They could easily have something in the machine that cleans the blade as it spins, at least enough to keep it working.

No, chainswords aren't going to be a finesse weapon, and no, they're not going to cleave someone in half with a flick of the wrist.

What a chainsword would be good for, though, is making instant casualties. You get slashed with a knife and it would really suck, but you could keep fighting, while even a gentle tap from a chainsaw is going to leave you screaming and bleeding profusely. What's good about chainswords is they're a sort of fix it and forget it weapon - just hit them once and move on to the next target.

Space marines are all about speed and maneuverability. They can't afford to waste time poking someone, waiting for them to go down. It's a shock and awe weapon.

Power weapons: Where does this idea that they're hot coming from? Everything I've read has talked about energy fields disrupting things.

Furthermore, melting stuff doesn't make sense when you consider that it's the shape of the weapon that determines its ability to bypass armor, which wouldn't matter if it was just a heat stick.

Plus, they don't get "gets hot", nor do they augment the strength of the user (once again unless they're a certain shape, but not another).

Meltaguns: Just remember that they're nothing like flamers. You can't hold down the trigger and laser-heat-beam an entire squad down with a single sweep. I like to think of them more like grenade launchers where there's a big attack and then a bunch of downtime.

Power armor: Once again, I think you're overplaying it. Remember that it's not proof against mere hot-shot lasguns, and it fails shockingly quickly to massed gunfire.

What's good about power armor, ironically, isn't the armor. It's good because of the interface with the space marine's other augmentations along with the other utility gear. Power armor allows a space marine to fight in any condition or circumstance at full strength. That's what makes it good.

Protection-wise, it's only a little better than carapace armor. Still better than a flak vest by a healthy margin, but it's not going to save you from getting chewed up if you're stupid.

TDA: Somewhat the same is true here. It's how the system augments the marine, not the thickness of the armor itself that's important.

Of course, you can also shoot it with an anti-tank weapon and it might just bounce off, so it is, you know, pretty good as far as armor goes.

Do remember, though, it still does fail against weight of fire. You can't be stupid with it, especially given how expensive/impossible it would be to replace. It's given to only the most experienced vets for the sake of the armor, more than the vet.

Physiology: 600 lbs. seems more than too much. I'm a tall guy, but you'd have to nearly triple my weight to get up to that point. The Rock is a huge guy, and even he only weighs 260.

Also don't forget the most important part of their physiology - their brain. A space marine is capable of genuine multitasking, and can sort out different information coming in from different senses as separate streams of data. They can be plotting strategy and giving orders while checking out their IR scanner and hacking someone apart with a chainsword simultaneously.

It's that superhuman intelligence that is the space marine's greatest weapon. It's why everything else about them seems so good. It drives me nuts when people assume that space marines are stupid and it's all down to their gear, not how they use it. They win battles at a million to one not because their armor or bolters are a million times better, but because they only get into situations where a million could possibly be beaten in that way. They use strategy to ensure victory before their equipment is even brought out of the locker.

Psychology: As the result of the above, space marines are nearly insane. They're sort of like human beings trying to engineer themselves to be eldar, and we all know what happened to them.

The end result is an endless, desperate attempt to repress neurosis. Hence the endless prayer and mind-focusing litanies and heavy-handed chaplains. You need look no further than the constant drain on SM numbers by them flipping to chaos or the wide array of semi-chaos loyalist armies (flesh tearers, etc. etc.) to see just how barely in control they are of the entire situation.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, to chip in my bit, I'm going to go mostly from a TT angle, as that's the only place where there's a real attempt at a more objective definition, rather than a plot device for various authors.

Bolters: Like others have said, I think you've overplayed them. Bolters have the same armor penetrating power as a .30 - .50 caliber bullet (aka heavy stubbers). Don't get me wrong, that's some decent punch, and regular body armor won't stand up to it, but it has its limitations. It will severely wound unarmored targets and yeah, probably blow a limb off here and there with the occasional head splash on unlucky targets, but bolters aren't rapid fire missile launchers that mow down everything in their path. They're a high-powered small arm, nothing more.

Remember that carapace is good against it, and it can't hurt vehicles with any amount of bulletproofing.

Chainswords: They could easily have something in the machine that cleans the blade as it spins, at least enough to keep it working.

No, chainswords aren't going to be a finesse weapon, and no, they're not going to cleave someone in half with a flick of the wrist.

What a chainsword would be good for, though, is making instant casualties. You get slashed with a knife and it would really suck, but you could keep fighting, while even a gentle tap from a chainsaw is going to leave you screaming and bleeding profusely. What's good about chainswords is they're a sort of fix it and forget it weapon - just hit them once and move on to the next target.

Space marines are all about speed and maneuverability. They can't afford to waste time poking someone, waiting for them to go down. It's a shock and awe weapon.

Power weapons: Where does this idea that they're hot coming from? Everything I've read has talked about energy fields disrupting things.

Furthermore, melting stuff doesn't make sense when you consider that it's the shape of the weapon that determines its ability to bypass armor, which wouldn't matter if it was just a heat stick.

Plus, they don't get "gets hot", nor do they augment the strength of the user (once again unless they're a certain shape, but not another).

Meltaguns: Just remember that they're nothing like flamers. You can't hold down the trigger and laser-heat-beam an entire squad down with a single sweep. I like to think of them more like grenade launchers where there's a big attack and then a bunch of downtime.

Power armor: Once again, I think you're overplaying it. Remember that it's not proof against mere hot-shot lasguns, and it fails shockingly quickly to massed gunfire.

What's good about power armor, ironically, isn't the armor. It's good because of the interface with the space marine's other augmentations along with the other utility gear. Power armor allows a space marine to fight in any condition or circumstance at full strength. That's what makes it good.

Protection-wise, it's only a little better than carapace armor. Still better than a flak vest by a healthy margin, but it's not going to save you from getting chewed up if you're stupid.

TDA: Somewhat the same is true here. It's how the system augments the marine, not the thickness of the armor itself that's important.

Of course, you can also shoot it with an anti-tank weapon and it might just bounce off, so it is, you know, pretty good as far as armor goes.

Do remember, though, it still does fail against weight of fire. You can't be stupid with it, especially given how expensive/impossible it would be to replace. It's given to only the most experienced vets for the sake of the armor, more than the vet.

Physiology: 600 lbs. seems more than too much. I'm a tall guy, but you'd have to nearly triple my weight to get up to that point. The Rock is a huge guy, and even he only weighs 260.

Also don't forget the most important part of their physiology - their brain. A space marine is capable of genuine multitasking, and can sort out different information coming in from different senses as separate streams of data. They can be plotting strategy and giving orders while checking out their IR scanner and hacking someone apart with a chainsword simultaneously.

It's that superhuman intelligence that is the space marine's greatest weapon. It's why everything else about them seems so good. It drives me nuts when people assume that space marines are stupid and it's all down to their gear, not how they use it. They win battles at a million to one not because their armor or bolters are a million times better, but because they only get into situations where a million could possibly be beaten in that way. They use strategy to ensure victory before their equipment is even brought out of the locker.

Psychology: As the result of the above, space marines are nearly insane. They're sort of like human beings trying to engineer themselves to be eldar, and we all know what happened to them.

The end result is an endless, desperate attempt to repress neurosis. Hence the endless prayer and mind-focusing litanies and heavy-handed chaplains. You need look no further than the constant drain on SM numbers by them flipping to chaos or the wide array of semi-chaos loyalist armies (flesh tearers, etc. etc.) to see just how barely in control they are of the entire situation.

Bolters are 20mm rocket propelled grenades.

A normal human hit by them will simply cease to exist in a coherent form. Light vehicles hit by them are also not only going to be penned, but likely shredded with large volumes of fire. Bolters are the same caliber of rounds used to down aircraft in WWII, or light autocannons even in the modern day.

Indeed. Angelus-calibre bolt rounds in the FFG roleplaying games are 1.0, Hundred Calibre - i.e. twice the calibre of an M2 Heavy Machine Gun. Normal people don't survive getting hit by **** like that.

Powered armour is capable of resisting it - but sustained fire can punch through even the plates. Terminator plate can stop it.

And yes, a Chapter will be about double the 'book' numbers once you add in command squads, honour guard, librarium, armoury, tank crews, warship crews, etc, etc.

The Warships are mostly crewed by servitors and chapter serfs, but even with a handful of marines aboard (the escort-class ships like the Gladius supposedly have the equivalent of a squad aboard in command positions) you're probably adding in another half company equivalent across the fleet.

The acid-spitting thing also comes up in Brothers of the Snake, where a marine (who has lost his helmet and is pinned in place by an enemy) uses his betcher's gland to blind his opponent briefly and buy enough time to kill his foe.

Ailaros, since you use the game as your fluff viewpoint, I assume you are also convinced that an average Imperial Guard Major outside of armour can survive three times as many heavy bolters shells as a stormtrooper can, while the latter is wearing armour?

Also, if we are using game mechanics, then chainswords would make no difference to fists at all.

Simply put, the game is BS that has nothing to do with the lore.

Its a good starting point.

Marines are tougher/faster/better at everything than most humans.

An IG major is not magically tougher and the wound mechanic are both obviously gamey mechanics, I mean, a Marine taking a direct shot from a meltagun should die 100%, same for most people, but they'll survive once in a while on the TT, shouldn't happen unless they have force fields.

Other example, PA doesn't fails 66% of the time, but it has weaknesses, same for Terminator armor.

Why are we even putting 'realistic' and 'Space Marines' in the same sentence?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why are we even putting 'realistic' and 'Space Marines' in the same sentence?

I think he was going for non bias true marines, instead of the OTT writing of diffrent authors.

Still impossible. Contrary to popular belief, IGhammer Space Marines are not more 'true' than any other Marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Still impossible. Contrary to popular belief, IGhammer Space Marines are not more 'true' than any other Marines.

What so we cant try to find a reasonable balance of what a IRL Spess marhine would be like?

You can try, but who deems when you are successful? You?

 Desubot wrote:
non bias

 Ashiraya wrote:
You can try, but who deems when you are successful? You?

 Desubot wrote:
non bias

No but generally once most people are happy. since ya know we can try and discus it out

 Ashiraya wrote:
IGhammer Space Marines are not more 'true' than any other Marines.

Still going on 'bout that eh?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
IGhammer Space Marines are not more 'true' than any other Marines.

Still going on 'bout that eh?

Right back at ya.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I know perfectly well how large 9' is (which is the fluff example I choose to follow). Despite some really wanting it otherwise (to the point of being snide to those who disagree), Goodwin's figure is not more canon than any other depiction or description. STCs can easily be adjusted to flatly increase the size of the components, and as Wyzilla says the interior of Imperial structures is HUGE. Unless you want them to go into an underhive. Why the hell are you sending your post-human super-elite special forces into an underhive?

No STC can't just be upscaled, you made that up. Or do you have proof?
Official Imperial Structures are huge yes. But not regular buildings where workers and lowlife live. Because if those are excessively big you are wasting a lot of space. Build smaller, and you can cram a lot more workers in the same place.
Why you would send marines into an underhive? Cmon... Because gak can dwell there that is dangerous. Cultists, weird mutants, tyranids, etc.

Oh and imagine... 9" tall. But their giant guns that are fitted to their size fire .75 cal bolts. That'd be like fixing pins for them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its a good starting point.

Marines are tougher/faster/better at everything than most humans.

An IG major is not magically tougher and the wound mechanic are both obviously gamey mechanics, I mean, a Marine taking a direct shot from a meltagun should die 100%, same for most people, but they'll survive once in a while on the TT, shouldn't happen unless they have force fields.

Other example, PA doesn't fails 66% of the time, but it has weaknesses, same for Terminator armor.

Depends on the mark of armor. Errant is practically flawless, and the only flaws of Aquila and Corvus are the knee joints and neck, although those can be fixed by adding a gorget. Iron Armor is only good for frontal assaults and suffers from mobility issues, and the Crusade Pattern is horrifically outdated. MK IV has the best sensor suite but still suffers from mobility issues.

Those are little details not really representable in the TT, just like the Kriegsmen lasgun shooting higher power beams, but not to the point to match hellguns.

Keep wrote:

No STC can't just be upscaled, you made that up. Or do you have proof?

Guardsmen can't climb. Or do you have proof?

It is obvious. Even at 7'6", you're not going to fit 10 of these guys, in full armour, into the same vehicle that also transports a maximum of, say, 10 inquisitorial henchmen. Even at lower estimates, Marines take up massive space. SM vehicles must be larger. Hell, look at the Land Raider Crusader. Try to fit 8 Terminators into it, or 12 Terminators and a Captain into a Spartan. You will fail. The models are out of scale, but you still need absolutely humongous vehicles to fit things like that.

Official Imperial Structures are huge yes. But not regular buildings where workers and lowlife live. Because if those are excessively big you are wasting a lot of space. Build smaller, and you can cram a lot more workers in the same place.
Why you would send marines into an underhive? Cmon... Because gak can dwell there that is dangerous. Cultists, weird mutants, tyranids, etc.

You have Arbites for jobs like that. If you have enemies so lethal so you can't do anything else than request Space Marines inside your underhive, then you destroy the underhive. Underhive scum are possibly the most disposable people in the Imperium, short of penal legionnaires.

Oh and imagine... 9" tall. But their giant guns that are fitted to their size fire .75 cal bolts. That'd be like fixing pins for them.

Yes, because GW calibers make sense. Oh wait, is it a Leman Russ I see over there?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Keep wrote:

No STC can't just be upscaled, you made that up. Or do you have proof?

Guardsmen can't climb. Or do you have proof?

It is obvious. Even at 7'6", you're not going to fit 10 of these guys, in full armour, into the same vehicle that also transports a maximum of, say, 10 inquisitorial henchmen. Even at lower estimates, Marines take up massive space. SM vehicles must be larger. Hell, look at the Land Raider Crusader. Try to fit 8 Terminators into it, or 12 Terminators and a Captain into a Spartan. You will fail. The models are out of scale, but you still need absolutely humongous vehicles to fit things like that.

Official Imperial Structures are huge yes. But not regular buildings where workers and lowlife live. Because if those are excessively big you are wasting a lot of space. Build smaller, and you can cram a lot more workers in the same place.
Why you would send marines into an underhive? Cmon... Because gak can dwell there that is dangerous. Cultists, weird mutants, tyranids, etc.

You have Arbites for jobs like that. If you have enemies so lethal so you can't do anything else than request Space Marines inside your underhive, then you destroy the underhive. Underhive scum are possibly the most disposable people in the Imperium, short of penal legionnaires.

Oh and imagine... 9" tall. But their giant guns that are fitted to their size fire .75 cal bolts. That'd be like fixing pins for them.

Yes, because GW calibers make sense. Oh wait, is it a Leman Russ I see over there?

\

You realize on the table vehicles are not to scale right?

hell the scale on table is wonky as feth.

There is no sane reason to assume an STC can just be upscaled, they were made THOUSANDS OF YEARS before an Astartes was even a concept. It stands to logic that they follow a STANDARD that fits normal Terrans, ie not 9 feet tall. (even though everything Hooman in the universe is stupidly huge.) It's right there in the name. STANDARD, ie, you press a button and you get a toaster, not you turn a dial, then press a button and you get a giant toaster.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is obvious. Even at 7'6", you're not going to fit 10 of these guys, in full armour, into the same vehicle that also transports a maximum of, say, 10 inquisitorial henchmen. Even at lower estimates, Marines take up massive space. SM vehicles must be larger. Hell, look at the Land Raider Crusader. Try to fit 8 Terminators into it, or 12 Terminators and a Captain into a Spartan. You will fail. The models are out of scale, but you still need absolutely humongous vehicles to fit things like that.

I was talking about the Rhino specifically, not the Landraider. And no, if your marines are not that large in the first place you dont need incredibly larger vehicles. Because the Cargo space only needs to fit 9 marines, the Sergeant drives in the front next to the driver. As Marines with 7'3" are not insanely bigger then regular humans, they can take up seated positions, provided it is of the same relative size as a chimera.

In the first two sentences you quoted, I referred to the Rhino.



Space Marines take a lot more space, and the artist here even undersized the armour (just look at the hips).

Wyzilla wrote:

Keep wrote:
Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you...
I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,

Without realising that this comes at a great cost...
not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get.
How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.

I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.

Except everything outside of the Tau is gigantic and overbuilt. There's no such thing as small buildings in 40k outside of Tau Space.

This isn't true. This is just fan myth that gets repeated and people start to believe it.

The reality is that plenty of times things in 40K have been described as small and claustrophobic. Just because there are depictions of vast things doesn't preclude the existence of small things.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In the first two sentences you quoted, I referred to the Rhino.

Spoiler:

Space Marines take a lot more space, and the artist here even undersized the armour (just look at the hips).

Picture is broken

Fixed.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Fixed.

Maybe they roll up into morph balls and gets stacked inside the rhino like a bunch of pill bugs

Thats not official art work eh?

Speaking of official is there any actual official dimensions of the rhino?

 Ashiraya wrote:
In the first two sentences you quoted, I referred to the Rhino.

Spoiler:

Space Marines take a lot more space, and the artist here even undersized the armour (just look at the hips).

That's fan art.

To be fair, it is made by a guy who makes GW art.

The point is not that a Space Marine has x inches wide shoulders, but rather the picture is to illustrate the point that they are much bulkier than one might be led to believe.

 Ashiraya wrote:
To be fair, it is made by a guy who makes GW art.

The point is not that a Space Marine has x inches wide shoulders, but rather the picture is to illustrate the point that they are much bulkier than one might be led to believe.

He made art for GW decades ago. Not to mention the idea of Power Armor seems to completely fly over Sibbering's head, especially how it's powered with synthetic muscles.

 Wyzilla wrote:
He made art for GW decades ago.

False Gods is not decades old...

Yes, he made its cover, among other things.

Not to mention the idea of Power Armor seems to completely fly over Sibbering's head, especially how it's powered with synthetic muscles.

Well, I did point out that he undersized the armour.