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iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Ashiraya wrote: I think a Marine would be much heavier than what you list. Much much much much heavier.
As far as I know, PA resists direct bolter fire unless you hit soft armour. After all, we've seen PA turn aside multiple direct hits from heavy bolters and autocannons alike.
This is true. An "average" human with "healthy" musculature at around 6'5" should weigh in nearly 200 pounds according to U.S. Health guidelines.
At 7'5"-8" this becomes 260-300 pounds.
Now include their enormous musculature, enhanced bones, black carapace. Easily 600-700, or more depending on material and thickness of the carapace (skeletal muscle/FMM raises weight pretty quickly relative to size the taller you get).
Add on power armor?
That's just one more kink! Suddenly you have 8'-8.5' (in armor) unable to get into most buildings and falling through all the floors, breaking all the elevators and stair shifts giving way out from beneath them.
As said, Warhammer doesn't work well with physics. The entire place runs on Rule of Cool.
Ashiraya wrote: I think a Marine would be much heavier than what you list. Much much much much heavier.
As far as I know, PA resists direct bolter fire unless you hit soft armour. After all, we've seen PA turn aside multiple direct hits from heavy bolters and autocannons alike.
This is true. An "average" human with "healthy" musculature at around 6'5" should weigh in nearly 200 pounds according to U.S. Health guidelines.
At 7'5"-8" this becomes 260-300 pounds.
Now include their enormous musculature, enhanced bones, black carapace. Easily 600-700, or more depending on material and thickness of the carapace (skeletal muscle/FMM raises weight pretty quickly relative to size the taller you get).
Add on power armor?
That's just one more kink! Suddenly you have 8'-8.5' (in armor) unable to get into most buildings and falling through all the floors, breaking all the elevators and stair shifts giving way out from beneath them.
As said, Warhammer doesn't work well with physics. The entire place runs on Rule of Cool.
And rockcrete/duracrete/whatnot (I keep forgetting which technobabble-super-concrete goes to which setting, one of those may be Star Wars).
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Well, Marines have very large footprints, remember that. A car weighs a ton and only a small part of the car touches the ground, but it does not fall through the ground anyway.
But sending them into a muddy swamp is probably still not the best idea.
Ashiraya wrote: Well, Marines have very large footprints, remember that. A car weighs a ton and only a small part of the car touches the ground, but it does not fall through the ground anyway.
But sending them into a muddy swamp is probably still not the best idea.
Yes, but things like bridges must maintain the entirety of the car's weight, regardless of it's ground bearing pressure per square inch.
For marines, that means that stairs, the ground floor of a house if it has a basement, every upper story (including the entirety of some Imperial Hives), etc. must all bear their weight.
It's also interesting to consider that SM warships must be slower to accelerate, what with all the crewmembers weighing half a ton (instead of 1/20th).
Ashiraya wrote: With 1000 Space Marines per chapter, you can't have all of the ship crew be Astartes.
Or how the ships Astartes hold in their fleets are the size of entire towns or cities and how even a hundred thousand space marines wouldn't even have a noticeable drain on the acceleration speed.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
It's space. The gravity aboard the vessel is artificial. The mass of even 1000 Marines aboard is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall mass of the ship (and its resulting inertia). The engines are not taxed to any real degree moving a fully-loaded vessel than they are one piloted by servitors.
The structural integrity of a stairwell is going to depend greatly on the nature and materials of its construction... but most found in any modern commercial building are capable of supporting thousands of pounds of weight. Marines going up and down them would not fall through the floor. Given that there are dot-coms that have their one-ton server racks on the fifth or sixth floors (or higher) of commercial office buildings, Space Marines likewise won't be falling through the floor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/14 11:05:58
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
The pilots/operators of the SM vehicles are accounted for. It's generally the Reserve Company, though this may vary by Chapter. In some cases, it's Chapter Serfs or Servitors.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
I really do wonder how heavy Brother Genericus in his PA would be.
People's opinions on Marine size are all over the place. I have seen people argue for everything between 6'6" and 10'.
I won't bother with trying to find a consensus because that's empirically proven impossible. Instead, I'm going to ask it like this (do count in armour):
If a Marine is 7', how heavy would he be?
7'6"?
8'?
9'?
Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you...
I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost...
not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get.
How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/14 18:12:23
Another thing to remember about an Astartes mindset. They HATE, and it is a long lived hate, between hypno indoctrination and chapter traditions, they would not be nice "people" to interact with. the idea of cuddly friendly astartes (Salamanders etc...) would be far from the norm imo. You get the nice versions in fiction because you cant have your posterboys be insufferable jerks, but if you think about it, that's what they would be.
Yeah, on the height thing. I tend towards the numbers Jes presented as well. With armor on you end up around 8 feet, plus. I think a lot of people underestimate just how BIG 7' tall is, combined with probably 400lbs of mass, thats GINORMOUS. Seriously, look at Hong Man Choi, the korean MMA fighter, now picture adding about 100 or so lbs of muscle mass to him. That's about what an unarmored Astartes is going to look like.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/14 19:08:12
Psienesis wrote: It's space. The gravity aboard the vessel is artificial. The mass of even 1000 Marines aboard is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall mass of the ship (and its resulting inertia). The engines are not taxed to any real degree moving a fully-loaded vessel than they are one piloted by servitors.
The structural integrity of a stairwell is going to depend greatly on the nature and materials of its construction... but most found in any modern commercial building are capable of supporting thousands of pounds of weight. Marines going up and down them would not fall through the floor. Given that there are dot-coms that have their one-ton server racks on the fifth or sixth floors (or higher) of commercial office buildings, Space Marines likewise won't be falling through the floor.
Probably my favorite part of the Black Library is when a Deathwing Terminator is walking through a wooden house and falls right through the stairs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep wrote: Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you...
I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost...
not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get.
How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
Except everything outside of the Tau is gigantic and overbuilt. There's no such thing as small buildings in 40k outside of Tau Space.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/14 19:43:34
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Psienesis wrote: It's space. The gravity aboard the vessel is artificial. The mass of even 1000 Marines aboard is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall mass of the ship (and its resulting inertia). The engines are not taxed to any real degree moving a fully-loaded vessel than they are one piloted by servitors.
Fair enough.
The structural integrity of a stairwell is going to depend greatly on the nature and materials of its construction... but most found in any modern commercial building are capable of supporting thousands of pounds of weight. Marines going up and down them would not fall through the floor. Given that there are dot-coms that have their one-ton server racks on the fifth or sixth floors (or higher) of commercial office buildings, Space Marines likewise won't be falling through the floor.
Well, a company of marines are a hundred of those one-ton server racks... so yeah.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Who stuffs a company of Marines into one building?
Keep wrote: Jes Goodwin stated 7'-7'6", that's the designer of THE space marine for you... I think some authors but more so fanboys just want to make their marines bigger and bigger because "COOOL" ,
Without realising that this comes at a great cost... not beeing able to enter certain areas, beeing a giant target, easy to hit from afar ... it all gets worse the bigger they get. How big of a transporter would you need for 10" marines. Its just ridiculous. Especially if you consider that the Rhino was designed for humans, and used/modified by Marines later as their APC.
I think Jes Goodwins figure is impressive enough, if you dont just consider heigth but also mass & physique. Then add armor onto that.
I know perfectly well how large 9' is (which is the fluff example I choose to follow). Despite some really wanting it otherwise (to the point of being snide to those who disagree), Goodwin's figure is not more canon than any other depiction or description. STCs can easily be adjusted to flatly increase the size of the components, and as Wyzilla says the interior of Imperial structures is HUGE. Unless you want them to go into an underhive. Why the hell are you sending your post-human super-elite special forces into an underhive?
Please, let's not try to debate which height is '''''''correct'''''', it's been done before and always failed.
I was asking about weight, though, not height. Still looking for opinions on this:
Spoiler:
Ashiraya wrote: I really do wonder how heavy Brother Genericus in his PA would be.
People's opinions on Marine size are all over the place. I have seen people argue for everything between 6'6" and 10'.
I won't bother with trying to find a consensus because that's empirically proven impossible. Instead, I'm going to ask it like this (do count in armour):
If a Marine is 7', how heavy would he be? 7'6"? 8'? 9'?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/14 23:00:19
At 7'6" they're said to be 750 pounds. The normal weight variance for a large-framed man, at 6" jumps (so between a 6'0" man and a 6'6" man) is an average of 25 pounds, at the upper limit of a healthy BMI (which, let's face it, Space Marines would be).
Based on that commonly-used fan-made image of a Space Marine compared to a basketball player, the 7'6" SM is over twice the weight of the 7'6" basketball player (750 lbs vs 350 lbs). That suggests that the increased bone and muscle mass, implants, etc. of the Space Marine more than doubles his weight, but only marginally above a 100% increase.
So, simplifying the math a bit:
At 7'0": 700 pounds
At 7'6": 750 pounds
At 8'0": 800 pounds
At 8'6": 850 pounds
At 9'0": 900 pounds
At 9'6": 950 pounds
At 10'0": 1000 pounds
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The normal weight variance for a large-framed man, at 6" jumps (so between a 6'0" man and a 6'6" man) is an average of 25 pounds, at the upper limit of a healthy BMI (which, let's face it, Space Marines would be).
Huh? I'm sure they'd be far outside the BMI list, just as strongmen and other very large people are. Hafþór Júlíus "Thor" Björnsson (the latest Ser Clegane in Game of Thrones) looks nothing out of the ordinary in pictures, until you get a picture with him and a normal 5' 6'' or so Lena Hedey who comes up to his shoulder - barely. The guy is 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) and 195 kg (430 lb). That's HUGE and HEAVY. BMI calculator says 46.0, and 30+ is obesity. Under 25 is "normal"...
That guy would be a perfectly fine Space Marine. And he already weighs over twice what I weigh, as a somewhat overweight man at about 177cm tall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/14 23:52:47
The problem with that is there's very little data to base a mathematical model on. While Bjornsson is definitely a huge dude, huge dudes like him are such a small percentage of the population that tables that track their height and weight don't really exist.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Ashiraya wrote: Now imagine if he had far more muscle, bigger bones, extra organs and so on, and if he was 7/8/9 feet et cetera.
There's really no need for him to be bigger than that. But let's say another 100 pounds of muscle and bones (we don't actually know if the bones of marines are heavier, just strengthened). They'd already be closer to 250 kilos - and add in the armor. You'd need to use freight elevators if you wanted to bring up a full squad at once.
Keep in mind, human bones have 5 times higher of a strength/mass ratio than steel does-- it's immensely strong for its weight, but bones are also incredibly light, as well. Most likely, if the bones are stronger, they're probably heavier. How much so is anyone's guess.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/15 00:44:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Ashiraya wrote: Makes me wonder if bone armour as a concept really is that stupid after all?
Not stupid at all, it's just really difficult to find a piece of bone large enough to for a chest piece AND being able to reshape said bone piece into a chest piece without reducing its integrity.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/15 01:54:28
Melissia wrote: Keep in mind, human bones have 5 times higher of a strength/mass ratio than steel does-- it's immensely strong for its weight, but bones are also incredibly light, as well. Most likely, if the bones are stronger, they're probably heavier. How much so is anyone's guess.
I'm fairly certain that they said that the bones were "denser", so it seems like they would be heavier than normal on top of being stronger than normal.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Guys... 195 kilograms (430 lbs). For a single man "only" 2.06meters (6'9'') tall. And he's pretty impressive already. The famous marine poster is of one 7' tall in full armor.
It might not be a concern for a great starship to carry a company of them, but if they weigh 400 kilos instead of 200 you will get noticable effects for squad ground transports. I mean a Rhino, for example. It can carry ten men in flak or carapace, or ten SoB in Angel Pattern PA, or ten Space Marines in Astartes Pa. How much farther and faster can it carry the men, or the SoB, if the marines weigh half a ton before donning armor?
Hmm... And how much does the average SoB weigh with and without armor, btw? She's just a "normal" woman at peak physical condition.
