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Before anything else, be sure to read the first paragraph, and the whole paragraph.



Okay, so we have major inconsistencies in fluff regarding Space Marines. In some fluff, you have Space Marines cutting Battleships in half and surviving a high-powered las-shot in the face. In others, you have Space Marines being torn apart like tissue paper, and unable to kill a single Eldar Aspect Warrior as he carves through an entire Company. This is attributed to each story being told from the view of different narrators, and most of them being told as Imperial Propaganda, tales told to young Blood Claws, a Harlequin's retelling of an Eldar victory, etc. etc. but the unreliability of the narrations is KILLING me. Because if this, I would like to start building up some realistic images of each of the different kinds of troops in each faction. I'm doing this on Bolter and Chainsword once I finish compiling everything I will need for it, but right here I just want to talk about Space Marines.

I want to talk about Space Marine equipment, physical attributes, even mental attributes, so from here, I'm just going to list a few things that I think Space Marines really are like, what their weapons really do, etc. I have compiled this knowledge after reading a crap-ton of books and an insane amount of wiki pages and logically working it out what this and that would be like in real life.


Realistically, what would the true power of a Bolter be? Would a Bolt Pistol be able to make an Eldar's head explode, or would it simply leave his ears ringing? Would a Heavy Bolter be leaving dozens and dozens of dead behind from a single mag, or would it barely be able to take down half a squad of Guardsmen?

Bolts: The vast majority of Space Marines weapons fire high-tech projectiles known as "bolts". On the table, these are everyday weapons, but in fluffy 40k, these are the same as the sword Archangel Michael used to cast down the Devil. Bolts are designed to penetrate their target, then detonate inside of it, similar to the way that the explosive shells in Naval Rifles are designed to penetrate the hull of a ship before detonating within to cause maximum damage. However, should the Bolt be unable to penetrate, it will detonate externally; causing far less damage. Bolts are basically explosive shells on steroids.
-IRL: The Bolt would have a detonation far more powerful than ordinary explosive ammunition. It's detonation would be similar to that of a 32 MM Grenade Launcher, however it's design would prevent it from killing more than one target; due to detonating within the target. Should a Bolt get a direct hit on a human being, that human would die, without a doubt. If it hits the torso, whole body turns into pieces as limbs go flying. Should a limb be hit, that limb goes kaboom, and the target would be sent flying; likely killed by either the shockwave of the detonation, impact on the ground, or simply from damage to internal organs from the initial detonation (target would undoubtedly bleed out soon after being hit should it survive). Blood loss from a hit from a Bolt would be massive, even for a creature the size of a Deathclaw (for those of you unacquainted with Fallout, a Yeti with really hard skin and massive claws). Most armours cannot resist a fusilade of Bolts, and even the best of Power Armours would fall apart after perhaps four hits to the breastplate, while standard Carapace armour would be lucky to survive more than one direct hit. The kind of armour needed to resist more than a few Bolts would have to be no weaker than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.
Note: Power Armour is known to have survived several direct hits from Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, etc. but it is also (almost always) said that armour integrity is compromised.

Chainswords: The iconic weapon of the Space Marines is basically a chainsaw that's easier to work with. The chainsword is heavy, with a lot of potential in killing fleshy targets. With the size and sophistication that Astartes Chainswords have, they are able to make the teeth spin incredibly quickly.
-IRL: The chainsword would grind through flesh, but would need time to actually kill a target in the hands of an ordinary human. With the strength of an Astartes, the Chainsword would cut deeply into an ordinary human, and would proceed to grind up his fleshy innards with relative ease. However, this would take several seconds to kill the target, which would give any surrounding enemies time to kill the undefended wielder; which is why the Astartes generally stick to swift slashes instead of simply holding the chainblade against the target and letting it do the work for them. When dueling, edge-on-edge parrying and blocking would result in the foe's blade being jerked down (or down, depending on the direction of the teeth-spinning), which would also make it difficult for the wielder to maintain control of the blade. Because of this, Space Marines would be forced to use the 'flat' of the blade for defense. Should an Assault Marine jump into a group of easily killed foes, then he would soon find his blade clogged with flesh; making it unusable. One major advantage that a Chainsword presents over an ordinary melee weapon is that it would cause excruciating agony for the victim, and would make him/her completely unable to do anything but scream in pain. Swift decapitations would be next to impossible against any opponent larger than a human, and cutting a person in half would also take at least several seconds (which is the equivalent of hours when in combat). Armour penetration would be next to impossible for most chain-weapons, and would take far more time than is practical on a battlefield; this is due to the simple fact that armours are far more advanced and well-built than you would find today. Against light armours, the chainsword would fare well, but would still take a moment or two to penetrate (unless the initial impact is sufficient to penetrate said armour).

Power weapons: Perhaps the most powerful close combat weapons in 40k, Power Weapons are used by most higher-ranking Space Marines. These weapons are composed of an incredibly hard metal with a small energy field generator inside of it. When activated, this weapon-type generates a thin field of super-heated energy around it that burns anything that touches it. (See: energy swords [Halo]). Due to the insane heat of Power weapons, they are capable of easily penetrating most armours; due to the extreme heat softening the armour while the sharp blade pierces it. Power weapons would also severely burn flesh, but would also cauterize any wounds that they made; leaving almost zero chance of victim bleeding out.
-IRL: Power weapons would be able to cut through large amounts of people relatively swiftly. The power weapon would be able to easily cut through flesh and bone, and would even burn the innards of the victim. One downside of the burning effect is that, should a foe lose a limb to a Power Weapon, that foe will almost certainly survive (minimal blood loss). Most armoured foes would find that their armour would do little but slow them down in a fight against a foe wielding a Power Weapon, but the armour of, say, a Terminator would be capable of resisting a direct strike. Should an Assault Marine wielding a Power Sword charge into a crowd, they will fall before him like wheat before a scythe.

Meltaguns: Fires a blast of concentrated microwave radiation; turning anything within range into molten slag. Basically, the ultimate anti-tank weapon. Infernus Pistols are also counted as Meltaguns.
-IRL: The Meltagun would easily destroy any groups of foes it finds within range, as well as any armoured foes. This baby would also take care of any vehicles that should be unlucky enough to cross paths with it, and would likely detonate their fuel supplies. This is definitely the most effective weapon I have ever heard of (aside from nukes).

Power Armour: This is what gives the Space Marines their iconic look. Power Armour is built of ceramite (one of the hardest metals known to man) with Plasteel forming the base. This is capable of easily deflecting ordinary ballistics alongside most lasers. However, it still has weak points; like any Plate Armour, if you hit a joint, slightly thinner part, etc. than an ordinary shot could penetrate and harm the wearer, while things like grenades and rockets would be far more capable in penetrating the Armour. A common misconception about Power Armour is that it is Ceramite is a type of ceramic material, when logic alongside Codex Astartes would dictate that it is metal, as ceramic would simply crumble when struck by a significant force, and would swiftly deteriorate in any combat or survival situation.
Along with its protective qualities, Power Armour greatly enhances strength and speed of its wearer. The only downside of Power Armour is that the bigass backpack on the back would keep its wielder from doing backflips.
-IRL: Armour that's thick as hell, with extra strength and speed to boot. What's not to love? Power Armour turns ordinary supersoldiers into superheroes. With Power Armour on, a Space Marine could crash into a squad of Guardsmen and kill 'em all with nothing but his fists.

Tactical Dreadnought Armour: Power Armour on steroids.
-IRL: Terminator Armour would basically allow a single Astartes warrior to go into a USA marine base filled with WARSOK (marine special forces) marines and kill everyone inside. The vast majority of conventional small arms would be unable to penetrate this armour without a great deal of time to chip away at it, and even things like rocket launchers would not be a sure thing. TDA also amplifies its user's strength and speed even MORE than ordinary Power Armour, though its user is less dexterous.

Dreadnought Sarcophagus: TDA on steroids.
-IRL: Turns its user into a walking, talking tank. Mounted with all kinds of Bolt weapons, Power Weapons, heavy weapons, etc, Dreadnought Armour is virtually indestructable by anything other than massed heavy weapon fire, and thus its user is capable of wreaking massive amounts of havoc on the enemy. An Astartes inside of a Dreadnought would be capable of facing every soldier in the entire US Marine Corps and come out relatively unscathed.

Astartes Physiology:

Height: varies, but is usually between 7 and 8 feet, with 9 feet being the max. 9 feet = 3 meters (3 meters also being the height of most Primarchs)
Note: Astartes height is often different from author to author, but, realistically, any larger and space travel would be next to impossible inside of ordinary Imperial Navy ships.

Weight: 250 kg - 300 kg, though there are always exceptions.
Note: 250 Kg = c. 475
300 kg = c. 650 lb

Strength: At least 4 times that of a normal human. Think Arnold Schwarzeneger back when he was still Mr. Universe, and double it.

-IRL: An Astartes would be significantly stronger, taller, faster, and heavier than an ordinary human. In a fist fight, an Astartes could easily defeat several hundred humans one after another, or several dozen all at once. Interesting thought - who would win in a fist fight, Bruce Lee or Uriel Ventras?

Most Astartes also have the ability to spit acid onto their foes in battle, though this is one aspect of their physiology that is almost never mentioned. To me, that makes NO FETHING SENSE, as that is a seriously awesome ability, but that's just Black Library being Black Library, right?

Astartes have a spare for every single one of their organs that are contained within their massive torsos (except for the intestines), alongside many additional organs, which grant them many special abilities that ordinary humans can only dream of. Due to the fusing of an Astartes' rib cage, it is only logical that the rib cage would also be slightly more supple than ordinary bones.

Special abilities: limited water breathing, enhanced senses, Acid-spitting, poison-resistance, almost-complete immunity to disease, rapid blood-clotting.


Astartes Mentality:

The Space Marines have received large amounts of Psycho-indoctrination and brainwashing, so they would be fiercely loyal to their Battle-Brothers and to the Imperium as a whole. However, before all else comes the Emprah; which is why you have Chapters like the Soul Drinkers, who don't give a rat's ass for the IoM, but would die in a heartbeat for the Emprah. Any Loyalist Astartes would gladly lay his life down for his Brothers, the IoM, or the Emprah, or even for some particularly juicy tech - they don't really value their own lives too much (Duty above all).

Regarding fear: most Astartes would never run from a fight unless absolutely necessary. Astartes have almost no fear in them, except for that small amount of rational fear that basically just analyzes a threat and says "Just thought you'd wanna know, that thing right there is big, bad, and deadly".

Regarding intelligence: Astartes do have their intelligence boosted to a certain degree during the metamorphosis from human to Space Marine, however there are no definite numbers, as you have the downright idiotic Space Wolves on one hand, and the fraggin' genius Alpha Legion on the other.

Overall: An Astartes warrior is similar to a Samurai in his devotion and mindset, a US Navy Seal in his knowledge and understanding, and a Catholic Monk in his faith.

If I missed anything in the physiology portion, please tell me and I will add it. Please give me some feedback on what I said about the equipment and how it would be in real life.
What do you guys think? Should I do this for any other troop-types/factions?

 dusara217 wrote:
Bolts: The vast majority of Space Marines weapons fire high-tech projectiles known as "bolts". On the table, these are everyday weapons, but in fluffy 40k, these are the same as the sword Archangel Michael used to cast down the Devil. Bolts are designed to penetrate their target, then detonate inside of it, similar to the way that the explosive shells in Naval Rifles are designed to penetrate the hull of a ship before detonating within to cause maximum damage. However, should the Bolt be unable to penetrate, it will detonate externally; causing far less damage. Bolts are basically explosive shells on steroids.
-IRL: The Bolt would have a detonation far more powerful than ordinary explosive ammunition. It's detonation would be similar to that of a 32 MM Grenade Launcher, however it's design would prevent it from killing more than one target; due to detonating within the target. Should a Bolt get a direct hit on a human being, that human would die, without a doubt. If it hits the torso, whole body turns into pieces as limbs go flying. Should a limb be hit, that limb goes kaboom, and the target would be sent flying; likely killed by either the shockwave of the detonation, impact on the ground, or simply from damage to internal organs from the initial detonation (target would undoubtedly bleed out soon after being hit should it survive). Blood loss from a hit from a Bolt would be massive, even for a creature the size of a Deathclaw (for those of you unacquainted with Fallout, a Yeti with really hard skin and massive claws). Very few armours would actually be able to resist the power of a Bolt, and even the best of Power Armours would fall apart after maybe three hits. The kind of armour needed to resist more than a few Bolts would have to be no weaker than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

I think you're overpowering the bolts quite a bit; though I have no real problem with this. It is worth noting that carapace armor can resist direct hits from bolt rounds in much of the fluff, and in my headcanon.

 dusara217 wrote:

Chainswords: The iconic weapon of the Space Marines is basically a chainsaw that's easier to work with. The chainsword is heavy, with a lot of potential in killing fleshy targets.
-IRL: The chainsword would not slide easily through flesh, and would need time to actually kill a target. With the strength of an Astartes, the Chainsword would cut deeply into an ordinary human, and would proceed to grind up his fleshy innards. However, this would take several seconds to kill the target, which would give any surrounding enemies time to kill the undefended wielder. However, an ordinary human being would take eve more time to kill his target (see: Chainsaw Bayonet [Gears of War]). Should a chainsword be used to parry or block another blade, the other blade would be jerked downward (or upward) due to the swiftly moving teeth of the chainsword. Should an Assault Marine jump into a group of easily killed foes, then he would soon find his blade clogged with flesh; making it unusable. One major advantage that a Chainsword presents over an ordinary melee weapon is that it would cause excruciating agony for the victim, and would make him/her completely unable to do anything but scream in pain. Swift decapitations would be next to impossible, and cutting a person in half would also take a good deal of time. Armour penetration would be next to impossible for most chain-weapons, and would take far more time than is practical on a battlefield.

I agree here. It's basically a pointless weapon, though it's unpredictability makes it as hard to fence against as to wield

 dusara217 wrote:

Power weapons: Perhaps the most powerful close combat weapons in 40k, Power Weapons are used by most higher-ranking Space Marines. These weapons are composed of an incredibly hard metal with a small energy field generator inside of it. When activated, this weapon-type generates a thin field of super-heated energy around it that burns anything that touches it. (See: energy swords [Halo]). Due to the insane heat of Power weapons, they are capable of easily penetrating most armours; due to the extreme heat softening the armour while the sharp blade pierces it. Power weapons would also severely burn flesh, but would also cauterize any wounds that they made; leaving almost zero chance of victim bleeding out.
-IRL: Power weapons would be able to cut through large amounts of people relatively swiftly. The power weapon would be able to easily cut through flesh and bone, and would even burn the innards of the victim. One downside of the burning effect is that, should a foe lose a limb to a Power Weapon, that foe will almost certainly survive (minimal blood loss). Any armoured foes would find that their armour would do little but slow them down in a fight against a foe wielding a Power Weapon. Should an Assault Marine wielding a Power Sword charge into a crowd, he will them to be like wheat before a scythe.

It is worth noting that some metals (for example, the plasteel and adamantium used in tank armor) can resist the blows of a power sword rather effectively, and the Lathe-metal alloys used by the Adeptus Mechanicus can outright defeat them.

 dusara217 wrote:

Meltaguns: Fires a blast of concentrated microwave radiation; turning anything within range into molten slag. Basically, the ultimate anti-tank weapon. Infernus Pistols are also counted as Meltaguns.
-IRL: The Meltagun would easily destroy any groups of foes it finds within range, as well as any armoured foes. This baby would also take care of any vehicles that should be unlucky enough to cross paths with it, and would likely detonate their fuel supplies. This is definitely the most effective weapon I have ever heard of (aside from nukes).

Certainly effective, though their pinpoint nature can be a liability.

 dusara217 wrote:

Power Armour: This is what gives the Space Marines their iconic look. Power Armour is built of ceramite (one of the hardest metals known to man) with Plasteel forming the base. This is capable of easily deflecting ordinary ballistics alongside most lasers. Along with its protective qualities, Power Armour greatly enhances strength and speed of its wearer. The only downside of Power Armour is that the bigass backpack on the back would keep its wielder from doing backflips.
-IRL: Armour that's thick as hell, with extra strength and speed to boot. What's not to love? Power Armour turns ordinary supersoldiers into superheroes. With Power Armour on, a Space Marine could crash into a platoon of Guardsmen and kill 'em all with nothing but his fists.

Power armor is good, but not that good - IIRC the first or second edition wargear book gave it around 85% survival rate against small arms for the wearer - about the protection it provides on the Table Top against lasguns, incidentally (including the roll to wound). It is certainly great, but it is nowhere near as good as the armor on a battletank, for example.

 dusara217 wrote:

Tactical Dreadnought Armour: Power Armour on steroids.
-IRL: Terminator Armour would basically allow a single Astartes warrior to go into a USA marine base filled with WARSOK (marine special forces) marines and kill everyone inside. Almost nothing would be able to penetrate this armour without a great deal of time to chip away at it. TDA also amplifies its user's strength and speed even MORE than ordinary Power Armour, though its user is less dexterous.

This overestimates the armor a bit I think - concussive force can still injure the occupant (unless it's ridiculously padded/has compensation) and even compensation systems will sometimes encounter force that they cannot overcome. A tank round from, say, a 120mm smoothbore or the Vanquisher's cannon should be able to pulp the occupant even if it does not directly breach the armor, imo.

 dusara217 wrote:

Dreadnought Sarcophagus: TDA on steroids.
-IRL: Turns its user into a walking, talking tank. Mounted with all kinds of Bolt weapons, Power Weapons, heavy weapons, etc, Dreadnought Armour is virtually indestructable by anything other than massed heavy weapon fire, and thus its user is capabled of wreaking massive amounts of havok on the enemy. An Astartes inside of a Dreadnought would be capable of facing every soldier in the entire US Marine Corps and come out relatively unscathed.

Depending on what the marines are armed with, really - but yes, at this scale you're finally getting armor thick enough and supported enough to go up against battle tanks.

 dusara217 wrote:

Astartes Physiology:

Height: varies, but is usually between 7 and 8 feet, with 9 feet being the max. 9 feet = 3 meters (3 meters also being the height of most Primarchs)
Weight: 100 kg - 150 kg, though there are always exceptions.
Strength: At least 4 times that of a normal human. Think Arnold Schwarzeneger back when he was still Mr. Universe, and double it.

-IRL: An Astartes would be significantly stronger, taller, faster, and heavier than an ordinary human. In a fist fight, an Astartes could easily defeat a thousand humans one after another, or several dozen all at once. Interesting thought - who would win in a fist fight, Bruce Lee or Uriel Ventras?

Most Astartes also have the ability to spit acid onto their foes in battle, though this is one aspect of their physiology that is almost never mentioned. To me, that makes NO FETHING SENSE, as that is a seriously awesome ability, but that's just Black Library being Black Library, right?

Astartes have a spare for every single one of their organs that are contained within their torso, except for the intestines.

Special abilities: limited water breathing, enhanced senses, Acid-spitting, poison-resistent, complete immunity to disease.

Speaking of making no sense - this entire section. Astartes physiology makes no sense; for example, how does one's ribcage expand to breathe if it is solid? I largely agree, though the 1,000 - 1 number seems silly - more like 10 or 12 to one. The endurance of the flesh can only go so far, even if it is genetically perfect.

 dusara217 wrote:

Astartes Mindset:

The Space Marines have receive large amounts of Psycho-indoctrination and brainwashin, so they would be fiercely loyal to their Battle-Brothers and to the Imperium as a whole. However, before all else comes the Emprah; which is why you have Chapters like the Sould Drinkers, who don't give a rat's ass for the IoM, but would die in a heartbeat for the Emprah. Most Astartes would never run from a fight unless absolutely necessary. Any Loyalist Astartes would gladly lay his life down for his Brothers, the IoM, or the Emprah, or even for some particularly juicy tech. Astartes also have almost no fear in them, except for that small amount of fear that basically just analyzes a threat and says "Just thought you'd wanna know, that thing right there is big, bad, and deadly".

I am conflicted about their mindset - are they good soldiers or good warriors?

well let's step back and examine what you've said, I agree with some of it, disagree with others.


1st: Boltguns: You claim very few armors would be able to resist a bolt. not sure I agree with that assesment. we know little about how bolt guns interact with armor other then they can't nesscarily penatrate power armor. we also don't know what happens to the explosive when the round hits something it can't dig into.. does it explode? not explode? I think you're absolutly right that bolt rounds would make a absolte MESS of any lightly armored target.

2nd: Chainswords: largely agree although it depends on how fast the teeth move (I tend to assume when a chainsword is used to block space marines use the flat of the blade. this BTW would explain the general preferance among loyalist marines for one sided chainswords and chaos using two sided. two sided is more dangerous and deadly but also would make defending yourself harder) that said chainswords also have an advantage over regular blades that you need far less energy to cut something then you would with a conventional blade. the moving blades do the work for you. chainswords are proably used for short slashes using the movement of the blades to turn what would be a glancing cut into a terriably brutal wound.


not sure I agree with you on power weapons. you're assuming I think that they operate basicly like a lightsaber, but the power field doesn't work that way. a power field works by "disrupting the molecular bonds of the target" basicly it's a "disintergrator sword" I'm really not sure what impact having bits of you disintergrated would do but I bet it's nasty.



just my two cents.


one thing looking at boltguns and chainswords though is that these weapons are notably in the terriable wounds they leave even if they DON'T kill you they're gonna be nasty. this combined with the phenominon of transhuman dread makes me conclude Astarties where intended to be terror weapons as much as anything else.

I believe you may have neglected a few special organs, such as the Larraman (Rapid Clotting) and the one that neutralizes poisons. Those seem important in a combat situation.

I used to feel the same on Chainswords but having read a lot of the books of late have gotten a bit more soft on them.

The average marine would not 'duel' with chainswords, they are a butchering weapon not one of elegance. When they do need to parry a blow they are trained to do this with the flat of the blade not the teeth. They are also incredibly well engineered weapons with in built lubrication and power supplies to keep them running not to mention it is stated in the books after almost every engagement the marines first action is to reload their weapons and to wipe down their swords removing any build up of tissue and blood.

It is all well and good to tear down the gear but you have to remember the wielders of such equipment are not men anymore, they are so beyond men in terms of physical ability and of course are conditioned and trained hour after hour and day after day to use the equipment efficiently. I am sure in the hands of a man a bolter would not be as effective weapon but a marine takes his first couple of shots at an opponent and then reads the damage, the weak places on the armour and so on all in the blink of an eye and compensates for this.

The battle against the Mecharachnids in the Horus books is a good indication of this, within minutes of their first engagement the marines have completely adapted their style of fighting to that opponent.

BrianDavion wrote:well let's step back and examine what you've said, I agree with some of it, disagree with others.


1st: Boltguns: You claim very few armors would be able to resist a bolt. not sure I agree with that assesment. we know little about how bolt guns interact with armor other then they can't nesscarily penatrate power armor. we also don't know what happens to the explosive when the round hits something it can't dig into.. does it explode? not explode? I think you're absolutly right that bolt rounds would make a absolte MESS of any lightly armored target.

2nd: Chainswords: largely agree although it depends on how fast the teeth move (I tend to assume when a chainsword is used to block space marines use the flat of the blade. this BTW would explain the general preferance among loyalist marines for one sided chainswords and chaos using two sided. two sided is more dangerous and deadly but also would make defending yourself harder) that said chainswords also have an advantage over regular blades that you need far less energy to cut something then you would with a conventional blade. the moving blades do the work for you. chainswords are proably used for short slashes using the movement of the blades to turn what would be a glancing cut into a terriably brutal wound.


not sure I agree with you on power weapons. you're assuming I think that they operate basicly like a lightsaber, but the power field doesn't work that way. a power field works by "disrupting the molecular bonds of the target" basicly it's a "disintergrator sword" I'm really not sure what impact having bits of you disintergrated would do but I bet it's nasty.



just my two cents.


one thing looking at boltguns and chainswords though is that these weapons are notably in the terriable wounds they leave even if they DON'T kill you they're gonna be nasty. this combined with the phenominon of transhuman dread makes me conclude Astarties where intended to be terror weapons as much as anything else.

Regarding Boltguns: I believe that you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. What I meant was that Bolts would penetrate most armours due to impact + explosion, not that a bolt would actually do much damage once penetrating armours, unless said armour was previously weakened. After looking at the design of a standard Bolt, I have come to the conclusion that the speed plus the way that the bullet itself would hit compounded by the explosion on impact would make it penetrate most standard armours, as well as many non-standard-issue armours. Also, the reason that I have come to the conclusion that Bolts explode after not being able to dig into something is that the only logical way for something like that to work would be with some kind impact sensor that would detonate the Bolt after it has been significantly slowed - for instance, the significant slowing down that would occur inside of the flesh of a person, or from being stopped cold.

Considering the thickness of chainswords, the use of the flat of the blade does seem far more likely for blocking and parrying. And yes, it would turn even a glancing blow into a devastating strike, but, it would also be constantly biting deeper into the flesh and make it far more difficult to remove the blade from the opponent's body.

I have read oftentimes of "sizzling flesh" in regards to a Power Sword being pressed against a person's skin or its wielder pausing for a moment with his blade still buried in his victim. And, yes, it while it would disintegrate skin and meat, but, disintegration occurs primarily through heat (though there are other means of disintegrating a foe), and that, along with many other little tidbits regarding Power Weapons, leads me to believe that Power Weapons have super-heated energy fields around them that would both cauterize a wound and cut easily through flesh; disintegrating as it goes.

SirSertile wrote:I believe you may have neglected a few special organs, such as the Larraman (Rapid Clotting) and the one that neutralizes poisons. Those seem important in a combat situation.

I"ll be sure to add the Larraman Organ, I'm afraid that I'd completely forgotten about it.

The acid spit seeing little use isn't really that odd - you can't spit on people when wearing a helmet, and impressive bare-headed models or not I'd suspect no sane Space Marine goes into battle without a helmet unless he has no choice. And those enemies probably also wear helmets...

And ofc, the acid produced by Betcher's Gland is probably not that impressive as a weapon. It's called a " corrosive, blinding acid", which can help a marine trapped behind iron bars to chew his way out in a few hours. More commonly used to break down and digest materials that no one would consider edible in situations where no other food is available. Presumably it could be useful when spat into the face of an opponent - but compared to what a marine can do with his bare hands it sounds pretty tame.

1) The Chainsword has massive, monomolecular edged teeth. It slides through matter quite easily.

2) Acid-spitting, as mentioned previously, isn't for use in combat. It's for getting past gates, breaking out of chains, and similar functions. This is a utility upgrade, not a direct combat upgrade.

3) Bolts don't explode on impact. They have a mass-reactive component to their fuse. That is, it doesn't explode until after it's inside you. So, bolt hits the armor, the round senses this as its armor-piercing tip punches an inch-wide hole through you, and the fuse begins "burning", then it hits your soft bits and goes a couple inches in... and then blows a chunk out of you the size of a Space Marine's fist when the bullet explodes. If you are a man-sized target, and took one to the chest, this would destroy your lungs and, depending on where you were hit, either your stomach, liver and kidneys or your heart.

 Psienesis wrote:
3) Bolts don't explode on impact. They have a mass-reactive component to their fuse. That is, it doesn't explode until after it's inside you. So, bolt hits the armor, the round senses this as its armor-piercing tip punches an inch-wide hole through you, and the fuse begins "burning", then it hits your soft bits and goes a couple inches in... and then blows a chunk out of you the size of a Space Marine's fist when the bullet explodes.

Then again what IS a "mass reactive" fuse? What if it doesnt go in? If it doesnt explode, alot of potential is wasted. Because if you can't penetrate armor, and it is infantry, the explosion can still terribly wound the soldier. Imagine he has a good chestplate that can't be penetrated by a standard bolt. The Bolt hits on that plate. Now if it would explode there, it would do alot more damage, then just breaking apart (that's what projectiles do if they can't penetrate something). It could terribly damage the soldiers lesser protected limbs (if not even rip them off). Additionally the force of the explosion could cause additional bad effects (blunt trauma) - depending on how strong it is and other factors.

i'd say "mass reactive" fuse is just a cool word for contact fuze with delay. That was a very common item in alot of ammunition in WW2. The fuze is activated on impact, but is delayed for a few milliseconds. Just enough to let the projectile penetrate through the armor and deliver the explosive inside. Has been used extensively in WW2 Anti-Tank (Armor-Piercing-High-Explosive rounds). WW2 Aircraft autocannons also had this fuze type. It would make the most sense if bolt round had this type of fuze. Note that there can also a minimum sensivity for a fuze to activate. That means it won't activate if you shoot through a piece of cardboard for example, so you can't just defeat it with simple tricks like this/ protect yourself by using such stuff as cover.

dusara217 wrote:I have read oftentimes of "sizzling flesh" in regards to a Power Sword being pressed against a person's skin or its wielder pausing for a moment with his blade still buried in his victim. And, yes, it while it would disintegrate skin and meat, but, disintegration occurs primarily through heat (though there are other means of disintegrating a foe), and that, along with many other little tidbits regarding Power Weapons, leads me to believe that Power Weapons have super-heated energy fields around them that would both cauterize a wound and cut easily through flesh; disintegrating as it goes.

Energy can transform into other energy. So it doesnt need to be a heat field if it burns matter. If you think of electrical energy... there are enough videos on youtube to show you how a tree or whatever is in contact with a high voltage wire starts burning. I'd rather think its similar but not exactly the same as a strong electrical field that has so much energy that it somehow changes the properties of atom connections it comes into connection with, therefore bypassing the strength of many materials.

I try not to think about these things to much. It destroys the fun factor realy.

Just like us, not every SM is the same. Some are bigger,stronger or faster than another. You might even have dimwitted space marines. The truly fearless might be capable of the gratest acts of valor while a dimwitted one might just have had a lot of luck...

Just because some SM die like flies and other survive a ridiculous injury doesnt mean fluff might be incorrect. Just like there are realy talented SM there can be talented Eldar or Orks that might stand above their kind.

Just read it as is, and it will stay fun. Disecting fluff into realistic pieces just destroys the fluff

@dusra217

Your effort to describ the actual capacity of a Space Marine is a nice attempt, but I would strongly advise you not to try it in such a fashion. The first reason, is that a realistic Space Marine are impossible for the following reason (and that's just from reading a few books on biologie, first aid and bio-mechanic): dense bone mass and fused rib-cage would prevent them from breathing correctly and would cook their organs because it prevent heat transfer (just like turtles and tortoise when they start to run); it would also prevent them from bending far enought to touch their toes which would make them poorer fighter in close combat; two hearts are useless and potentially dangerous; larraman cell would cause them ACV, heart failures and dangerous organ malfunction on a regular basis and since their acid spit can corrod metal and space marine seems to be vulnerable to acid (they are still are organic of course) how come it doesn't melt their face each time they spit or even salivate? Right there, you have terrible issues to solve about Space Marine and wouldn't like to be in your chair at that point. In fiction, it's usually considered stupid to try to explain magic with science (it doesn't work) and Space Marines are has magic in my opinion just like Sauron's Ring of Power, Harry Potter's wand, Excalibur or Tinker Bell. Would anyone try to explain the powers of fairies because from one story to another it seems to change all the time (and it does)? Theologians have tried for centuries to define what a god really is and what it should be able to do and they all have failed miserably to reach unanimity in such an important subject: defining the object of potential worship. You would feel much better simply giving us your vision of the Space Marine capacities compared to all the others without trying to inject to much science in it or overexplaining your points. Just my two cents....

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Just read it as is, and it will stay fun. Disecting fluff into realistic pieces just destroys the fluff

i partially disagree. It constantly destroys the fun for me if yet again one of the lesser BL author writes bullcrap about the weapons/armor capabilities, or if people just fantasize about how awesome it is, which doesnt even match the descriptions. There is stuff (e.g. Warp stuff) that isn't explainable. And marine biology propably too, because that's not something we can do atm. I'm not good in biology and that stuff either... but technical stuff i DO understand. The laws of physics still apply to normal technology, as long as no warp is involved. It destroys the immersion everytime someone tries to force feed you with stuff that doesnt make sense at all, that contradicts even the basic laws of physics.

That's why i think it's good to give parts that are indeed explainable by realworld comparisons, a reality check, to prevent the immersion breaking (and often unnecessary) stupid things.

epronovost wrote:
@dusra217

Your effort to describ the actual capacity of a Space Marine is a nice attempt, but I would strongly advise you not to try it in such a fashion. The first reason, is that a realistic Space Marine are impossible for the following reason (and that's just from reading a few books on biologie, first aid and bio-mechanic): dense bone mass and fused rib-cage would prevent them from breathing correctly and would cook their organs because it prevent heat transfer (just like turtles and tortoise when they start to run); it would also prevent them from bending far enought to touch their toes which would make them poorer fighter in close combat; two hearts are useless and potentially dangerous; larraman cell would cause them ACV, heart failures and dangerous organ malfunction on a regular basis and since their acid spit can corrod metal and space marine seems to be vulnerable to acid (they are still are organic of course) how come it doesn't melt their face each time they spit or even salivate? Right there, you have terrible issues to solve about Space Marine and wouldn't like to be in your chair at that point. In fiction, it's usually considered stupid to try to explain magic with science (it doesn't work) and Space Marines are has magic in my opinion just like Sauron's Ring of Power, Harry Potter's wand, Excalibur or Tinker Bell. Would anyone try to explain the powers of fairies because from one story to another it seems to change all the time (and it does)? Theologians have tried for centuries to define what a god really is and what it should be able to do and they all have failed miserably to reach unanimity in such an important subject: defining the object of potential worship. You would feel much better simply giving us your vision of the Space Marine capacities compared to all the others without trying to inject to much science in it or overexplaining your points. Just my two cents....

Bones: I don't know how much actual movement goes on in the ribcage, and if the lower portion of the abdomen doesn't get futzed with I don't see how that would prevent them from being able to bend over. I don't see anything in the implants about denser bone mass, the ossmodula implant is there to let the skeleton grow to a full seven-foot Space Marine height more than anything else.

Secondary heart: Since it's also a setup to create emergency booster shots of adrenaline I suspect it's not literally an extra 'heart'. It could just as easily be a package of cybernetic enhancements to the normal heart and a secondary pump that starts going if the normal heart deactivates and it would have the same function, describing it as a 'secondary heart' could simply be the poetic side Imperial technology loves.

Acid spit: What if it's a substance that reacts with air to become acidic? It doesn't help with the not burned mouth but maybe it takes a few moments of exposure.

Larraman's Organ: I'm not sure what ACV is in this context so I can't help you with this one.

Disclaimer: I'm not actually a biologist or medical professional, I'm an amateur sci-fi writer who occasionally comes up with technobabble explanations for physically implausible things by poking around on the Internet.

But the point is that you can't come up with a 'realistic' explanation/description of most of this because the folks in charge are presumed to have tools and technology we don't and may have come up with ways around the inherent physical problems with things like Space Marines. You can stick to the facts and point out it's not real, or you can come up with not real technobabble to explain it, all you've proven is here, now, today, the human race could not create a Space Marine.

 dusara217 wrote:


Astartes Physiology:

Height: varies, but is usually between 7 and 8 feet, with 9 feet being the max. 9 feet = 3 meters (3 meters also being the height of most Primarchs)
Note: Astartes height is often different from author to author, but, realistically, any larger and space travel would be next to impossible inside of ordinary Imperial Navy ships.

Yeah, teach the controversy.

Teach. The. Controversy!

For whatever reason every doorway/tunnel/whatever seems to be specifically built for astartes power armour. Or was there any BL where the marines just couldn't advance because of an entrance they couldn't enter because of size limitations?
If i was the TAU or rebel infantry i would exclusively build tunnel systems and fortifications with human shoulder width and 1.8m heigth at max. for defences -> practically impossible to access by Marines or the average Ork.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

epronovost wrote:
@dusra217

Your effort to describ the actual capacity of a Space Marine is a nice attempt, but I would strongly advise you not to try it in such a fashion. The first reason, is that a realistic Space Marine are impossible for the following reason (and that's just from reading a few books on biologie, first aid and bio-mechanic): dense bone mass and fused rib-cage would prevent them from breathing correctly and would cook their organs because it prevent heat transfer (just like turtles and tortoise when they start to run); it would also prevent them from bending far enought to touch their toes which would make them poorer fighter in close combat; two hearts are useless and potentially dangerous; larraman cell would cause them ACV, heart failures and dangerous organ malfunction on a regular basis and since their acid spit can corrod metal and space marine seems to be vulnerable to acid (they are still are organic of course) how come it doesn't melt their face each time they spit or even salivate? Right there, you have terrible issues to solve about Space Marine and wouldn't like to be in your chair at that point. In fiction, it's usually considered stupid to try to explain magic with science (it doesn't work) and Space Marines are has magic in my opinion just like Sauron's Ring of Power, Harry Potter's wand, Excalibur or Tinker Bell. Would anyone try to explain the powers of fairies because from one story to another it seems to change all the time (and it does)? Theologians have tried for centuries to define what a god really is and what it should be able to do and they all have failed miserably to reach unanimity in such an important subject: defining the object of potential worship. You would feel much better simply giving us your vision of the Space Marine capacities compared to all the others without trying to inject to much science in it or overexplaining your points. Just my two cents....

Bones: I don't know how much actual movement goes on in the ribcage, and if the lower portion of the abdomen doesn't get futzed with I don't see how that would prevent them from being able to bend over. I don't see anything in the implants about denser bone mass, the ossmodula implant is there to let the skeleton grow to a full seven-foot Space Marine height more than anything else.

Secondary heart: Since it's also a setup to create emergency booster shots of adrenaline I suspect it's not literally an extra 'heart'. It could just as easily be a package of cybernetic enhancements to the normal heart and a secondary pump that starts going if the normal heart deactivates and it would have the same function, describing it as a 'secondary heart' could simply be the poetic side Imperial technology loves.

Acid spit: What if it's a substance that reacts with air to become acidic? It doesn't help with the not burned mouth but maybe it takes a few moments of exposure.

Larraman's Organ: I'm not sure what ACV is in this context so I can't help you with this one.

Disclaimer: I'm not actually a biologist or medical professional, I'm an amateur sci-fi writer who occasionally comes up with technobabble explanations for physically implausible things by poking around on the Internet.

But the point is that you can't come up with a 'realistic' explanation/description of most of this because the folks in charge are presumed to have tools and technology we don't and may have come up with ways around the inherent physical problems with things like Space Marines. You can stick to the facts and point out it's not real, or you can come up with not real technobabble to explain it, all you've proven is here, now, today, the human race could not create a Space Marine.

It doesn't make their bones super dense, it causes them to turn into a ceramic-like compound which is stronger then normal bone matter. While also probably making them lighter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.

Spetulhu wrote:
The acid spit seeing little use isn't really that odd - you can't spit on people when wearing a helmet, and impressive bare-headed models or not I'd suspect no sane Space Marine goes into battle without a helmet unless he has no choice. And those enemies probably also wear helmets...

And ofc, the acid produced by Betcher's Gland is probably not that impressive as a weapon. It's called a " corrosive, blinding acid", which can help a marine trapped behind iron bars to chew his way out in a few hours. More commonly used to break down and digest materials that no one would consider edible in situations where no other food is available. Presumably it could be useful when spat into the face of an opponent - but compared to what a marine can do with his bare hands it sounds pretty tame.

Yes, and how many times do you hear of captive Space Marines using said acid to chew through the bars of their cells, or the cuffs that bind them? I have yet to read a single piece of fluff where the acid spitting is used even once. If you have, please inform me of it, so I can learn something new and find an author who (hopefully) properly represents Space Marines.

Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?

I liked your post, but I just wanted to add that I'd reconsider your astartes' unarmored weight.

By your calculations, I've got between 0 and a hundred pounds of weight on them (0-50kg), and I'm only 6'3" (1.9 m) tall.
I mean, unless we're talking about the "Sons of Anorexia" chapter.

Good post, though. For your bolter section, look up gyrojet weapons. It's neat reading.

FM Argos

Edit: I see the numbers have been adjusted, much better!

 dusara217 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The acid spit seeing little use isn't really that odd - you can't spit on people when wearing a helmet, and impressive bare-headed models or not I'd suspect no sane Space Marine goes into battle without a helmet unless he has no choice. And those enemies probably also wear helmets...

And ofc, the acid produced by Betcher's Gland is probably not that impressive as a weapon. It's called a " corrosive, blinding acid", which can help a marine trapped behind iron bars to chew his way out in a few hours. More commonly used to break down and digest materials that no one would consider edible in situations where no other food is available. Presumably it could be useful when spat into the face of an opponent - but compared to what a marine can do with his bare hands it sounds pretty tame.

Yes, and how many times do you hear of captive Space Marines using said acid to chew through the bars of their cells, or the cuffs that bind them? I have yet to read a single piece of fluff where the acid spitting is used even once. If you have, please inform me of it, so I can learn something new and find an author who (hopefully) properly represents Space Marines.

Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?

First Captain Sevatar of the Night Lords in the novella Prince of Crows uses acid spit when captured on a Dark Angel battleship to dissolve the wall of a reinforced iron prison cell before being promptly discovered and thrown into a cell with force field technology.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.

Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.

Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.

Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.

Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.

Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.

Keep wrote:
For whatever reason every doorway/tunnel/whatever seems to be specifically built for astartes power armour. Or was there any BL where the marines just couldn't advance because of an entrance they couldn't enter because of size limitations?
If i was the TAU or rebel infantry i would exclusively build tunnel systems and fortifications with human shoulder width and 1.8m heigth at max. for defences -> practically impossible to access by Marines or the average Ork.

This seems like an effective strategy

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.

Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.

Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.

Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.

Yes, but I'm fairly certain that the authors aren't strong enough sci-fi writers to know that it even exists.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.

Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.

Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.

Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.

Yes, but I'm fairly certain that the authors aren't strong enough sci-fi writers to know that it even exists.

More to the point sci-fi works best, long term, when kept vague, some stuff that sounds really advanced, gets dated others don't and it's hard to tell what. which is where you get silly stuff like "THIS UBER SUPER COMPUTER CARRIES MEGABYTES OF DATA!" which might have sounded amazing in 1985 but now... less so

They aren't really strong enough sci-fi writers to do that, either

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, realistic power armor would be powered by Carbon Nanotubes, IE CNT, because CNT is so hax that it's practically magic in real life.

Fullerene is a common thing within the Schlock Mercenary universe, the basic building block of most armors. But doesn't really suit 40k, I feel.

Also, some of this stuff feels like movie marines wishlisting.

Considering this is the same universe where gravity guns are common guns, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Power Armor was made of CNT. Hell it'd make sense considering how strong the stuff is. IIRC something like an 8mm thick strand of Carbon Nanotubes is so strong it could replace your entire bicep muscle without you ever noticing the difference.

Yes, but I'm fairly certain that the authors aren't strong enough sci-fi writers to know that it even exists.

More to the point sci-fi works best, long term, when kept vague, some stuff that sounds really advanced, gets dated others don't and it's hard to tell what. which is where you get silly stuff like "THIS UBER SUPER COMPUTER CARRIES MEGABYTES OF DATA!" which might have sounded amazing in 1985 but now... less so

It's crazy to think even thirty years ago megabytes were impressive, when we're now building servers to store a yottabyte or more of information.

Times really do change.

 dusara217 wrote:
Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?

If you're within spitting distance you're also in range for a fist, chainsword or other weapon. Why waste time on triggering the acid glands - and aiming very carefully - when you have better weapons? A particularly sadistic marine might use it for toying with a totally outmatched opponent, but serious saga-seeking Space Wolves might even consider it dishonorable.

Oh, and the description of the glands mention that it's actually several different ones each producing a component of the acid. The parts becomes acid only after it's mixed up, so the marine should have a second or two to get it out of his mouth.

Much of 40k doesn't work when you apply real world physics, and most races/technology work in such a vast span - from being absolutely worthless to being unstoppable, depending on the writer - that trying to quantify anything is more a lesson of "Which version of events do I prefer/imagine happening the most in my head.

Bolter rounds have nonsensical things like "depleted deuterium core", marines technically can't breath or move much of their upper torso with a black carpace, most armor has an RHA inferior to modern tanks and many terms are applied with no actual understanding of their meaning for coolness factor (ie. Monomolecular edge would suck and no amount of mono anything is going to make chainswords a viable weapon, much less a preferred weapon considering all available options).

Then you have handwavium like meltas and everything from a Primarch fearing a single bolter shot (Guiliman) to being stepped on by a Titan and tanking a Warhound plasma shot to the face (Angron, Lorgar).

I love 40k too, and mostly for the awesome fluff that makes my boy-heart flutter and my testosterone do silly things. But don't try to quantify it. Because if you can to any great degree, you're lying to yourself and are making fanboy arguments. Better to just nod and play along to whatever you've currently got going on in your head.

Spetulhu wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Also, while most Space Marines do generally wear helmets as much as humanly possible, you still have Chapters like the Space Wolves, who rarely, if ever, wear helmets into combat. Would acid-spitting not see common use by the Vlika Fenrika when facing foes whose eyes/skin are vulnerable?

If you're within spitting distance you're also in range for a fist, chainsword or other weapon. Why waste time on triggering the acid glands - and aiming very carefully - when you have better weapons? A particularly sadistic marine might use it for toying with a totally outmatched opponent, but serious saga-seeking Space Wolves might even consider it dishonorable.

Oh, and the description of the glands mention that it's actually several different ones each producing a component of the acid. The parts becomes acid only after it's mixed up, so the marine should have a second or two to get it out of his mouth.

You trigger the acid glands WHILE you're fighting and then spit to distract your opponent while you deliver the killing blow.

I think a Marine would be much heavier than what you list. Much much much much heavier.

As far as I know, PA resists direct bolter fire unless you hit soft armour. After all, we've seen PA turn aside multiple direct hits from heavy bolters and autocannons alike.