I took a long break from playing my Warhammer 40k armies for a bit and I've just came back. I played a game recently of 1500pts but I left some of my pieces back home so I included a few rhinos to see what would happen (I usually don't use Rhinos that often as I prefer to use the Razorback). It was rather annoying and my two Rhinos blew up due to some unlucky dice rolls which left me rather angry at the sheer "uselessness" of the Rhino.

So leading to the topic question: What is the point of the Rhino? It may be a few points cheaper than the Razorback and have more transport space but is it really worth it?

It's a cheap transport with 3 HP and Objective Secured (if taken for troops).
What's not to like? The Razorback has same HP and armour values like the Rhino, so they would have also blown up in your game.

35 point troop shield that moves.

A rhino is as expensive as 2.5 space marines and gives you more protection than 2.5 extra body count ever would. If a Rhino is wrecked, nothing happens to your passengers (except a pinning test). If a Rhino explodes, then you do take some minor damage, but the point is, it gives your squad mobility + protection for dirt cheap (pointswise, not $$$wise).

Also you can use a Rhino as a block of mobile cover for another troop.

But for the same cost as a rhino+tac, you could take bikers with better range, that are faster and have two relentless gravguns.

The Rhino is a great mobility platform, and when it has dropped its contents serves really well as a shield, Line of Sight-blocking item, and as a Tank shock driver.

My Rhino made a Squad of 3 Obliterators run off the board. That's when you like Rhinos more!

Not everyone has that option though.
Also, you take Tacs because you need Troops for your CAD/AAD. In that context, a Rhino is a good investment.

If you take bikes as troops, then yes, the fail is not with the Rhino, but with the Tac's it transports.

First of all, rhinos are versatile. essentially you get a transport, and if you choose a storm bolter. Now, you can use it as a shield for either the transported squad, or other squads.

The second good point, is that if taken as a Personal Transport, it will not cost a FOC piece, meaning you have a piece of armor on the field for essentially little cost, it can ignore most low strength shots, (Strength 4 through 5 if you position correctly)

I've won games based on my rhinos. (Took 2 of them against a guard army)

The point of a rhino is to drive your tactical marines directly at the enemies basic troops if they are out shooting you.

Move 12". Flat Out into cover or fire smoke launchers. At this point there is a fork in the road. Either, your rhino is destroyed, and your marines are placed (hopefully on an objective) mostly unharmed, or, your rhino survives to repeat the process.

Makumba wrote:
But for the same cost as a rhino+tac, you could take bikers with better range, that are faster and have two relentless gravguns.

A single volley can wipe three T5 3+sv wounds off the face of the battlefield.

METAL BOXES are pretty okay.
Cheap
They make your dudes immune to infantry fire
They protect your dudes from strong fire for a turn or so, especially template weapons (e.g., thunderfire, baleflamers, ion accelerators)
Cheap
Lets you truck around the board and take objectives, or lets you move a stranded unit across the board late in the game (drop pods can't do that)
Has two firepoints, so you can camp and still shoot your heavy/special weapons
Cheap
Acts as a mobile wall for your dudes, especailly useful if you abuse turbo-boost to move after they shoot.
Can tank-shock, which is a highly underappreciated tactic when facing armies with low Ld
Has smoke launchers and a spotlight, which are underappreciated
Can buy cheap dozer blades and then basically ignore terrain
Can un-imobilize itself
CHEAP

Of course, the downside is that there is a little false advertising going on... they are, in fact, CARDBOARD BOXES that explode when the enemey so much as glares at them. The OP's annoyance with them is pretty much par for the course. I've reached that zen where I plan on them all being smouldering wrecks by turn 2, and I do still find them rather useful.

They were better in previous editions - I spent most of 5th scratching the paint off of Rhino hulls with Ork Boyz - but they are still an effective force multiplier for a bargain price. Basically, there is nothing else that you can take for the same points that will make your basic Troop units as effective, both at surviving enemy fire and at taking objectives.

Dirt cheap Rhinos are one of the reasons that 40k Marine armies are not as cheap moneywise to buy as you'd expect.

SM transports are just the epitome of transport for me.

For 35 points, you can just do whatever you want to do, transport wise.

Deepstrike anywhere, with a bunker that has a gun and without real DS risk ? check.
Move 18" a turn with a line blocking aluminum foil box ? check.

The only drawback to Rhinos is their cargo, which is currently not as competitive as other choices and thus not that interesting to transport in the first place.

It's important is very underestimated. Yes it is not very heavily armored but think of it as a small buffer that can get your marines up the board quickly and provide some cover.

When you get out you can maneuver it as a LOS blocking unit to further help you marines.

Its a very cheap mobile cover save. For 35 points you get a APC with which to get tac sqauds up the board faster.

About 50-55 with HK missile, a blade and other extras if you like them semi tooled up.

And I've found they can be used as ad hoc walls or used to block a line of advance up unless they can blow it up.

Rhinos are awesome, they're so versatile for an extremely low price. They get your troops where you need them, protect them from anti-infantry power (and any damage they might suffer in a wreck is chump change compared to getting nailed with an AP3 blast weapon), provide cover/block LOS, can score objectives without wasting expensive troops for the task, can tank shock (nothing better than running your opponent's Riptide off the table with a Rhino), provide armour saturation, and are generally just a waste of shots for your opponent if you're running a target saturation list.

I might be alone on this one, but IMHO Rhinos are actually better than drop pods. In addition to the above points, you aren't forced to commit everything to an alpha strike that can be easily countered through various tricks (reserving, hiding rear armour, etc), they help you out as long as they're alive and don't leave you stranded after Turn 1. They do require a bit more finesse to pull off successfully though, but as far as I'm concerned, they can do much more as a result.

Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

People always say this, but no, I don't. In fact, it's rare for me to see first blood before turn 2... even turn 3 on rare occasions. Sure, if I'm fighting Tau or Eldar then I'm probably going to give it up, but I was likely going to give it up to those armies anyway. Having a bunch of OS Rhinos should more than make up for 1 VP anyway between objective grabbing and good potential for Linebreaker. Of course, if you play on a table with no BLOS cover then that sort of thing makes a big difference.

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

I'd say fielding drop pods is more likely to yield first blood to the opponent.

Of course, if you have a single Rhino in a 1500 point army that's mainly a gunline and you use your Rhino to move one troop forward, then yes, that's first blood. But when used with other stuff advancing, you force your opponent to split his fire.

You have to play them somewhat smart because they are so thin, that does not make them bad it makes you thin a bit more about where you place them. I reun BA army so they are a bit more pricey (totaly worth it seeing there fast) and I have won more than one game because I can sprint him basicly acrost the table in a turn to cap an objective/puch a unit off objective or even just run units off table. it is a very good unit, just use it like it was ment to be used and not try to force it into a IFV role.

Rhino is good for one reason. It is cheap. If there was a stronger more expensive alternative - it would be used. Something in the 90-140 point range that had multiple guns and armor 12 is what a transport needs to be. Rhinos are just cheap - that is all.

If you want durable get the 200+ point land raider.

Its a rough 5th the cost at least cheaper for a basic rhino.
There thin but they are a reliable basic transport just don,t expect it to kill much or tank tons off hits.

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

I play for last blood, not first blood.

Look at it this way. The Rhino is valued just like the Ork Trukk is valued. Ork Trukks are 30 points base, but usually 35 because you want the ram to redo dangerous terrain. But unlike the Rhino, the Trukk is only 10/10/10 and open topped. Has a transport capacity of 12. Our vehicle can be destroyed by even the lightest of breezes. But most any Ork player will bring them each and every game. Why?

Because they are cheap. They are fast. They get troops where they NEED to be. You don't expect a light vehicle to survive a long time. That isn't their goal. They are not combat vehicles. They are transports. And for 35 points, both Trukks and Rhinos do their job, then die.

If for some reason your transport is not killed, you dump your troops where you need them, and then use the transport as either another (Fast moving) objective holder, or as a mobile shield for other units, or even a 'battering ram' of sorts by tank shocking and detracting fire. Yes, they can be easy kill points, but their role is one of the few that has proved strong over time.

And if they're shooting at my rhinos, they're leaving my predators alone!

I like them because not only are they shielding my troops inside but I can also use them as mobile cover for my TWC.

Honestly it remindes me the renegades thread when someone tried to claim the flame-sentinals were bad because thy die easy.
Never mind that they cost practically nothing, a heavy flamer infantry dies even more easy.


Even if you look at a rhino as a gun platfom, or abltive wounds-its still better than another body in many cases.
When you factor the ability to zoom around, and the SM ability to make 3 OS units with 1 tac rhino squad, it falls in the wonderland of "assume included unless you got a reason not to"

If you take 6-8 of them some will likely survive as no one is going to pop them all in one round and after they will have more important targets. At that point you flat out towards backfield objectives and free up your guys to do something other than sit out the fight.

Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

Probably 5pts better spent elsewhere (like on Meltabombs). Keep in mind that vehicles, unless they are Fast or Heavy, can only shoot 1 weapon at full BS if they move at Combat Speed with everything else fired as Snapshots. If you Flatout, then you can't fire them at all. So if you're moving your Rhino around, which is sorta the entire point of having it in the first place, then 2 Bolter Snapshots are pretty useless.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Rhino is good for one reason. It is cheap. If there was a stronger more expensive alternative - it would be used. Something in the 90-140 point range that had multiple guns and armor 12 is what a transport needs to be. Rhinos are just cheap - that is all.

That's just wrong.

At 35 points, the Rhino and the Pod are both undercosted and amazing at their one single job.

You generally don't want mixed roles in an army, as is the case of the 140 point Wave Serpent (more like 135 -145).

Here's why:

A transport you must be able to sacrifice in order to bring its contents to their destination, as fast and as safe as possible.

The Rhino will never waste a turn shooting when it can flat out, whereas an expensive troops carrier doesn't have that option.

The Rhino doesn't care that it's going to be charged next turn, because it's 35 points, whereas an expensive troops carrier is not something you want to lose just for dropping some troops.


A good counter-example to your approach is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

When you bring a Wave Serpent close enough to drop Fire Dragons, you will either be within 18-20" with your rear armor showing, or within 13-15" with your front armor showing.
In one case, you are pretty much giving up your tank to shooting, and in the other case, to assault.
And that is just to be able to use the Fire Dragons, which will certainly die on the next turn.
If I had the option, those Fire Dragons would be in Drop Pods.

Rhinos have a lot of versatility and can certainly be worth it. The CSM variant seems to be more effective than the loyalist one.

Here's some ideas on how to use them.

1) Park some Noise Marines behind a wall of 3 of them and let the opponent come to you without moving (which is important b/c of salvo).

2) Give them havoc launchers and you basically have a Razorback.

3) Use those firing points to turn them into plasma Rhinos.

4) Keep them behind your troops to offer them some protection, and use them to get across the board when it's time to secure objectives.

Rhinos exist to give Tau and Eldar easy target-practice victories (who doesn't love ridiculous S7 spam at 36''-60'', followed up by long range AP2 pie plates), and demonstrate that even a Tactical Squad in the right place isn't effective or worth the excessive amount of points you spent on them.

In real war, a non-IFV mechanised assault can have a smoke screen created in front of it by means of mortars or artillery, and this can allow the weakly armoured transports to get their contents where they need to be facing minimal fire.

In 40k, they have to survive multiple turns of shooting from an entire gunline, and at best they can get one turn of 5+ cover that is ultimately terrible and doesn't change a thing.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Rhinos exist to give Tau and Eldar easy target-practice victories (who doesn't love ridiculous S7 spam at 36''-60'', followed up by long range AP2 pie plates), and demonstrate that even a Tactical Squad in the right place isn't effective or worth the excessive amount of points you spent on them.

In real war, a non-IFV mechanised assault can have a smoke screen created in front of it by means of mortars or artillery, and this can allow the weakly armoured transports to get their contents where they need to be facing minimal fire.

In 40k, they have to survive multiple turns of shooting from an entire gunline, and at best they can get one turn of 5+ cover that is ultimately terrible and doesn't change a thing.

In 40K, you pay 35 points, or two and a half marines, to cross most of the DMZ in a single turn.
It's too bad that there isn't very interesting cargo to transport, but that's hardly the fault of the APC.

I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

Martel732 wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

I play for last blood, not first blood.

Exalted!

morgoth wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

I good opponent actually should be able to mitigate the damage if they want to, but I agree that they are easier to use.

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Rhino is good for one reason. It is cheap. If there was a stronger more expensive alternative - it would be used. Something in the 90-140 point range that had multiple guns and armor 12 is what a transport needs to be. Rhinos are just cheap - that is all.

That's just wrong.

At 35 points, the Rhino and the Pod are both undercosted and amazing at their one single job.

You generally don't want mixed roles in an army, as is the case of the 140 point Wave Serpent (more like 135 -145).

Here's why:

A transport you must be able to sacrifice in order to bring its contents to their destination, as fast and as safe as possible.

The Rhino will never waste a turn shooting when it can flat out, whereas an expensive troops carrier doesn't have that option.

The Rhino doesn't care that it's going to be charged next turn, because it's 35 points, whereas an expensive troops carrier is not something you want to lose just for dropping some troops.


A good counter-example to your approach is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

When you bring a Wave Serpent close enough to drop Fire Dragons, you will either be within 18-20" with your rear armor showing, or within 13-15" with your front armor showing.
In one case, you are pretty much giving up your tank to shooting, and in the other case, to assault.
And that is just to be able to use the Fire Dragons, which will certainly die on the next turn.
If I had the option, those Fire Dragons would be in Drop Pods.

Drop pods are obviously under costed because they give you first turn deep strike (and you can walk out of them the turn your deep strike) anywhere on the board and basically ignore mishap (all for the cost of a cardboard box). Then after that they are still tougher than a rhino and therefore harder to kill. Rhinos on the other hand are cardboard boxes for 35 points - you get what you pay for with a rhino and it's not much. Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

I good opponent actually should be able to mitigate the damage if they want to, but I agree that they are easier to use.

If you try to mitigate the damage, you lose something else.

In other words, the simple fact of including Drop Pods in your army is already going to put your opponent on the back foot and net you an advantage.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Probably 5pts better spent elsewhere (like on Meltabombs). Keep in mind that vehicles, unless they are Fast or Heavy, can only shoot 1 weapon at full BS if they move at Combat Speed with everything else fired as Snapshots. If you Flatout, then you can't fire them at all. So if you're moving your Rhino around, which is sorta the entire point of having it in the first place, then 2 Bolter Snapshots are pretty useless.

Yeah I know what you mean & you're probably right -meltabombs or a flamer would be a better spend. What I had in mind with the rhino was going flat out, unloading the squad in a suitable position as soon as possible, and then leaving the rhino stationary -preferably in cover- rattling away with the 2 sb-s and generally being more than just a nuisance. I've built a heavy bolter razorback with the same role in mind but I'm started weighing it up against the above rhino loudout -the extra transport capacity might make it the better option. (I know there's better weapon options for the razorback but I'm reluctant to splash points out 30 or 40 points on an AV11 vehicle)

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

Cheap Eldar guardians ?

I don't think S3T3Sv5+ for 9 points a model qualifies for cheap tbh. And they're not better than Space Marines per point.

Rhinos themselves are undercosted, they just lack anything interesting to transport in order for it to become obvious.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

Depends on whether you're fighting armies with lots of 4+ saves, and whether you want that extra transport capacity. The main argument against giving your rhino another storm bolter is that you can only actually fire it at full BS if you don't move - which sort of defeats the point of a rhino (at the very least you should be . With a Razorback, you can at least scoot around 6" every turn and fire your gun.

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

Cheap Eldar guardians ?

I don't think S3T3Sv5+ for 9 points a model qualifies for cheap tbh. And they're not better than Space Marines per point.

Rhinos themselves are undercosted, they just lack anything interesting to transport in order for it to become obvious.

You forgot to mention BS 4, assault 2 sudo-rending shots and the ability to run afterwards to gain cover saves, making 5+ armor not matter. They're really a bargain for 9 points, especially since last iteration they were 8 points for BS 3, no sudo-rending and no ability to run after shooting.

EDIT: I'm not saying they're undercosted though. I think they're pretty good.

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

Cheap Eldar guardians ?

I don't think S3T3Sv5+ for 9 points a model qualifies for cheap tbh. And they're not better than Space Marines per point.

Rhinos themselves are undercosted, they just lack anything interesting to transport in order for it to become obvious.

You forgot to mention BS 4, assault 2 sudo-rending shots and the ability to run afterwards to gain cover saves, making 5+ armor not matter. They're really a bargain for 9 points, especially since last iteration they were 8 points for BS 3, no sudo-rending and no ability to run after shooting.

EDIT: I'm not saying they're undercosted though. I think they're pretty good.

Yes... sudo rending, what package is that again ? not available for my distro ? noway.

It's written pseudo rending.

Compared to SMTac, Guardians are just garbage.
The odd AP1 shot with bladestorm doesn't make up for their lack of everything. Tac Marines are way better per point against vehicles, in CC, against everything that is AP4 or worse, against everything that is S5 and less, ignore morale, have way better transport and weapon options, ...
Besides, most of the time their Battle Focus will be used to get in range, and it's not like you can hide ten guardians with just one run.
Compared to Ork Boyz, Termagants or AM footsoldiers, they're just overpriced and pointless.

Their last iteration was pure garbage, even worse than now, still doesn't make them comparable to cheap troops, like MSU Tac.

Guardians are automatically better because they're cheaper...

So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

Drop pods have an achilles heel of forcing the marine player to commit early. I've seen drop pods backfire quite a bit. They are not undercosted, and I don't even like using them. If I had access to something as good as the WS, I'd use it constantly.

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport.

Not only are those very different in terms of points, they're very different in battlefield roles and raw power.

I have explained above why the Wave Serpent is not a good transport. It's a good tank, but it's become a bad transport. You don't buy a Wave Serpent as a mobility option for a unit, you buy a unit as an excuse to get another MBT.

Rhinos are perfect, what's missing is a competitive unit that needs the transport ability, and a severe recost of the Drop Pods.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

Not since I could give them Ignores Cover and fire both storm bolters on the move. Back when I could do that, it was awesome.

Their cheap as chips and they give marines mobility to a ludicrous end. They literally are one of the most effective ways of moving models around to the point most guardsmen players would kill to acquire them because of their price and effectiveness.

Their a workhorse vehicle through and through and if all the reasons I and others have given are not enough they are iconic. Marines without rhinos is like orks not stompin on Thursday... It simply isn't done. Even the gk's use them and almost nobody in their army can ride them hahaha

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

The Rhino would be diabled by the WS trivially and then the marines shot to pieces before they could get close enough to use their weapons against the WS.

Martel732 wrote:

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

The Rhino would be diabled by the WS trivially and then the marines shot to pieces before they could get close enough to use their weapons against the WS.

And yet they cost the same. Rhinos and Tac Marines just don't fit together. Drop Pods are the only way to make Tac Marines competitive.

Its a LoS Shenanigan jerk is what it is lol

No, seriously, it is a jerk for blocking LoS.

Move - Disembark - Occupants shoot - Rhino moves flat out to block further LoS from enemies to your now disembarked unit.

35 points of SHENANIGANS!

morgoth wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

not if you roll like me 2 games i gave first blood with it by mishapping(i put it 11 inches from the edge first game and of course double 6 into the edge, one aaand FIRST BLOOD AND I LOST MY 10 MAN STERNGUARD UNIT ) second game same ... But when they aren't giving first blood then they are scattering into worst possible places... tl;dr my drop pods just hate me so i use rhinos

Rhinos are great 40k vehicles they scream, 'mad insane death or glory charges' they alway blow up or get immobilised that's what they do it the glory they achieve dong it!

cool manoeuvre to try with the rhino(s)

You will need: 2 rhinos and marines nearby (or filled with marines), incoming very assault orientated enemy squad (for example ork boyz)

when the nasties are just about to hit the squishy marines, park the two rhinos in front of the incoming squad (and with the marines behind) so the left rhino's bottom right corner is touching the right rhinos bottom left corner at a 45 degree angle. There is no need to try to escape, you can stand still and rapid fire through the gap in the rhinos joining, whilst the next turn you will be safely guarded by walls of ceramite with the opponent unable to assault you. Watch said ork/tyranid/insert horde army owner rage

This manoeuvre makes rhinos worth 35 points, as if they weren't already

 redrooster148 wrote:
cool manoeuvre to try with the rhino(s)

You will need: 2 rhinos and marines nearby (or filled with marines), incoming very assault orientated enemy squad (for example ork boyz)

when the nasties are just about to hit the squishy marines, park the two rhinos in front of the incoming squad (and with the marines behind) so the left rhino's bottom right corner is touching the right rhinos bottom left corner at a 45 degree angle. There is no need to try to escape, you can stand still and rapid fire through the gap in the rhinos joining, whilst the next turn you will be safely guarded by walls of ceramite with the opponent unable to assault you. Watch said ork/tyranid/insert horde army owner rage

This manoeuvre makes rhinos worth 35 points, as if they weren't already

This is the reason you get Rhinos. Peek a Boo tactics are always good.

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport.

Not only are those very different in terms of points, they're very different in battlefield roles and rawhide power.

I have explained above why the Wave Serpent is not a good transport. It's a good tank, but it's become a bad transport. You don't buy a Wave Serpent as a mobility option for a unit, you buy a unit as an excuse to get another MBT.

Rhinos are perfect, what's missing is a competitive unit that needs the transport ability, and a severe recost of the Drop Pods.

Skimmer so it moves over terrain. Fast skimmer so turbo-boosting is excellent. 2+ against pens, 3+ cover save in the open. Av12. That's a pretty damn good transport, if using it as a transport. Can take melta armed troops, wraithcannon armed troops and psudo rending troops.

Yeh it's good.

But nothing I ever say to you about a wave serpent will go in so lets just leave it there.

Some interesting things in here that make me want to re-try Rhinos but I have committed a lot to making my SM army a drop pod list and I have made my GK army be almost pure DS. If I didn't have to overhaul most of lists in order to put in Rhinos, I think I would want to try some of these tactics.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

I'd say fielding drop pods is more likely to yield first blood to the opponent.

Of course, if you have a single Rhino in a 1500 point army that's mainly a gunline and you use your Rhino to move one troop forward, then yes, that's first blood. But when used with other stuff advancing, you force your opponent to split his fire.

Meh...if you're fielding an army heavy on drop pods and you don't get first blood, it's either a really bad dice problem or an issue of generalship.

What cover save TWC would get behind a Rhino? I'd like to hide my wolves in and behind Rhinos but I guess vs Tau Drop Pods are better - Rhinos simply get poppet 1st turn and my Troops are still far away from their effective range.

TBH getting to Tau is the hard part no matter the army, interceptor 60inch guns make things painful.

 Springfluter wrote:
What cover save TWC would get behind a Rhino? I'd like to hide my wolves in and behind Rhinos but I guess vs Tau Drop Pods are better - Rhinos simply get poppet 1st turn and my Troops are still far away from their effective range.

Cover saves are 5+ unless stated otherwise. You would only get that cover save if the model is at least 25% obscured from TLOS from at least one model in the firing unit.

I'll take Drop pods over Rhinos any day of the week. I bring three 10 man tac squads in drop pods (at 1850) and the work wonders for me. Because I combat squad them, my opponents seem to have a tough time because that is 9 OS units to try to force off objectives all while dealing with the more Leathal aspects of my army.

Crazy Jay wrote:
I bring three 10 man tac squads and the work wonders for me.

The internet won't accept this.
Common wisdom is that you must spam bikes and hate the hobby.

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

235 points.

What's wrong ?

You can take MSU Tac Marines, those Guardians are already MSU.

Nobody wants Tacticals, everybody wants Wave Serpents.

That comparison is worthless except to point out once more that the only failure of the Rhino is what it transports.

Crazy Jay wrote:
I'll take Drop pods over Rhinos any day of the week. I bring three 10 man tac squads in drop pods (at 1850) and the work wonders for me. Because I combat squad them, my opponents seem to have a tough time because that is 9 OS units to try to force off objectives all while dealing with the more Leathal aspects of my army.

Then your opponents aren't seeing clearly. Kill the parts of your army that matter -> then kill useless tactical marines -> profit $$. It's right out of the guidebook of how to wipe up non-optimized marine lists. Basically, marines are short bodies and putting bodies on the board that can be ignored is not a good plan for marines. You don't have to spam bikes, but tac marines are horrid in practice.

Drop Pods are plain crazy, especially unbound.

Imagine that you can just cut the table in two with 350 points.

That's some crazy tactical power, almost auto-win against Tau.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Its a LoS Shenanigan jerk is what it is lol

No, seriously, it is a jerk for blocking LoS.

Move - Disembark - Occupants shoot - Rhino moves flat out to block further LoS from enemies to your now disembarked unit.

35 points of SHENANIGANS!

I'm pretty sure you can't flat out after disembarking, sadly. However, you can do this every turn after you disembark, so it still works pretty well.

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport.

Not only are those very different in terms of points, they're very different in battlefield roles and raw power.

I have explained above why the Wave Serpent is not a good transport. It's a good tank, but it's become a bad transport. You don't buy a Wave Serpent as a mobility option for a unit, you buy a unit as an excuse to get another MBT.

Rhinos are perfect, what's missing is a competitive unit that needs the transport ability, and a severe recost of the Drop Pods.

The best transport is a fast vehicle that's hard to kill and has a bunch of guns. Being a good tank in no way negatively effects the WS as a transport - in fact it makes it the best transport in the game. Your logic is especially flawed and you obviously play a lot of eldar. You are correct about the lack of competitive units to put in the rhino though this doesn't help their case ether.

Also you are totally disregarding the superiority of the units that go inside them too. Guardians are perfectly pointed for what they do - which is provide more firepower than a tactical squad for about half the points.

As a CSM player, I don't own enough rhinos. CSM rhinos get all sorts of neat upgrades like dirge casters (no enemy overwatch for units in range) and a set of blades that let you deal damage to enemy infantry every time the rhino tank shocks. Add a havoc launcher for some twin linked blast template fun and you have an effective, albeit much more expensive, anti infantry box. Dropping its payload close to the enemy, where a kitted CSM squad is quite deadly, and then offering up some wonderful support makes them invaluable. The table that you're playing on really affects their usefulness, though. If there's little cover, a rhino is going down FAST. However, the local tournament rules require a fair amount of cove so that bleeds over into the meta., So usually I'm riding up behind cover and disembarking, then the rhino lends its support to infantry in conjuction with my TL lascannon/heavy bolter predator, usually making people ignore the predator for a turn or two.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The best transport is a fast vehicle that's hard to kill and has a bunch of guns. Being a good tank in no way negatively effects the WS as a transport - in fact it makes it the best transport in the game. Your logic is especially flawed and you obviously play a lot of eldar. You are correct about the lack of competitive units to put in the rhino though this doesn't help their case ether.

Also you are totally disregarding the superiority of the units that go inside them too. Guardians are perfectly pointed for what they do - which is provide more firepower than a tactical squad for about half the points.

The best transport has no guns whatsoever.
It's cheap, fast, lasts until target is reached.
Having guns gives it a dual purpose which makes it worse at being a transport, that's how things work.

WRT Guardians, no they are not perfectly pointed, and there are no good Eldar troops except jetbikes (and only when playing Maelstrom type games), especially not when compared to Tactical marines, which cost one and a half Guardian a piece with T4S4Sv3+, good heavy weapon options, combat squadding, ATSKNF, krak grenades, access to pods and rhinos.


The Wave Serpent is an awesome MBT and a horribly overcosted transport - and we make it work by playing it as an MBT first, and as a transport second.

I'll take DA all day every day over tac marines. But that's another thread, I suppose. To say there are no good Eldar troops and then talk about tac marines is pretty laughable. Tac marines are one of the worst troops in the game, imo, because of their pt/efficacy ratio. Basically, you are paying a lot of points to do nothing with tac marines.

This is simple: Things that kill a lot of infantry models really fast don't move very much (with the exception of flamers) Heavy/ordinance. You have very few models if they die you lose game also they are 12inch range at best so you want them there so you get rhino to get them there then you shoot enemy and win

Yeah... the WS is a grossly undercosted tank that happens to have a transport capacity (why not?).

The Rhino is good because it's cheap for what it does, but suffers because tactical squads are meh. As a SoB player, I like them because I can carry Dominions 20 points cheaper than an immolator and it's less likely to blow up because it doesn't have a TL MM on top that screams kill me. This generally means that while the enemy is murdering my melta doms after their alpha strike, they ignore my Rhino that drives around a bit then parks on an objective I cleared from long range.

If you want to see why a "better, more expensive" transport fails, see the Devilfish. It's almost as survivable as the WS (minus the ignoring pens bit, but it's got a 3+ jink and AV12 too) and cheaper, but without the option to fire 10+ shots a turn, it just ends turns into an expensive reminder that your Fire Warriors really don't really want to fly away from where you set up your gunline, and they definitely don't want to double the cost of their squad to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, I think Scouts in an LSS are a much better troop + transport choice for marines. It saddened me deeply that BA didn't get it. (Imagine 3 S5, I5 attacks + open topped fast skimmer transport on a map with enough terrain to hide behind then pop over with your skimmer.)

I'll agree that the Rhino is more cost effective than the Devil Fish. The Tau need their pseudo-fast vehicles back. They should have never lost them and never gained the Riptide.

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The best transport is a fast vehicle that's hard to kill and has a bunch of guns. Being a good tank in no way negatively effects the WS as a transport - in fact it makes it the best transport in the game. Your logic is especially flawed and you obviously play a lot of eldar. You are correct about the lack of competitive units to put in the rhino though this doesn't help their case ether.

Also you are totally disregarding the superiority of the units that go inside them too. Guardians are perfectly pointed for what they do - which is provide more firepower than a tactical squad for about half the points.

The best transport has no guns whatsoever.
It's cheap, fast, lasts until target is reached.
Having guns gives it a dual purpose which makes it worse at being a transport, that's how things work.

I actually have to agree in this regard, Wave Serpents are not a great choice if all you're looking for is a transport. Being fast and survivable is great, but in order to transport effectively they have to show their rear armour and sacrifice basically all of their mobility and shooting. In this regard, yes, they're not particularly amazing. However, they're still ridiculous elsewhere.

Anybody run upgunned razorbacks? I know they have considerably more punch with ass can or lascannon, but have my doubts about spending points on something which can be taken out so easily, my thinking being it'd be better to invest in more surviveable vehicles like predators or vindicators.

Lascannon is better than AC because you might be able to outrange opponents and protect your AV 11 hull.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Anybody run upgunned razorbacks? I know they have considerably more punch with ass can or lascannon, but have my doubts about spending points on something which can be taken out so easily, my thinking being it'd be better to invest in more surviveable vehicles like predators or vindicators.

I still like lascannon/twin-plasma gun Razorbacks. You can use the range of the lascannon in the early game and three AP2 shots at short range are a decent threat against assault units/FMCs that get close.

Martel732 wrote:
Lascannon is better than AC because you might be able to outrange opponents and protect your AV 11 hull.

But hanging around way backfield shooting lascannons runs counter to the Razorback's other purpose: transporting your dudes to where they need to be (which is usually near the enemy). If your razorback is driving around within 24" of the enemy anyhow, then you might as well give it an AC (which is better than the LS in most cases).

I like the lasplas a lot because it lets you fill both role effectively. A non-TL Lascannon is not that much worse than a TL'd one.

You don't necessarily have to hang around the backfield. Sometimes you can drive away from the anti-tank threat but still towards an objective.

Martel732 wrote:

Crazy Jay wrote:
I'll take Drop pods over Rhinos any day of the week. I bring three 10 man tac squads in drop pods (at 1850) and the work wonders for me. Because I combat squad them, my opponents seem to have a tough time because that is 9 OS units to try to force off objectives all while dealing with the more Leathal aspects of my army.

Then your opponents aren't seeing clearly. Kill the parts of your army that matter -> then kill useless tactical marines -> profit $$. It's right out of the guidebook of how to wipe up non-optimized marine lists. Basically, marines are short bodies and putting bodies on the board that can be ignored is not a good plan for marines. You don't have to spam bikes, but tac marines are horrid in practice.

If my opponents ignore my Tacs, then I utterly destroy them on objectives. I truly hate the internet mindset of there only being one correct way to play. Just because one person doesn't know how to utilize a unit, doesn't make it worthless.

Ok, here is something you should know about rhinos.
Razorback: Less transport, moar weapons.
Rhino: moar transport, less weapons.
But the good thing is, the Rhino has a storm bolter for defensive purposes.

Crazy Jay wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Crazy Jay wrote:
I'll take Drop pods over Rhinos any day of the week. I bring three 10 man tac squads in drop pods (at 1850) and the work wonders for me. Because I combat squad them, my opponents seem to have a tough time because that is 9 OS units to try to force off objectives all while dealing with the more Leathal aspects of my army.

Then your opponents aren't seeing clearly. Kill the parts of your army that matter -> then kill useless tactical marines -> profit $$. It's right out of the guidebook of how to wipe up non-optimized marine lists. Basically, marines are short bodies and putting bodies on the board that can be ignored is not a good plan for marines. You don't have to spam bikes, but tac marines are horrid in practice.

If my opponents ignore my Tacs, then I utterly destroy them on objectives. I truly hate the internet mindset of there only being one correct way to play. Just because one person doesn't know how to utilize a unit, doesn't make it worthless.

No you won't, because the last two turns will be a tac massacre after all your real units have been dealt with. I've done this to marine player over and over with the worst codex (at the time) in the game. (Arguably still the worst, just not nearly as bad)

Playing with a tac heavy list is basically crippling your own ability to reduce the amount of fire you take each turn. This disparity increases every turn as your opponent kills more and more of your units and you kill less and less back, as they are fragging your dangerous units and leaving your helpless units alone until the point where you can cause no damage to their list because all you have is tacs. There is no good way to utilize tacs because they don't really have any game effects to utilize from an offense per point perspective.

That's wierd. I was under the impression that I was the one present at my games and not you. I'll have to let my opponents know that they actually did win those games, I'm sure they'll be thrilled to know it.

You make it sound like I play 1850 worth of standard space marines. That I don't bring bikes, and tanks and other things. I can't help that you feel tactial marines are worthless and I'm not going to change your mind. However, stepping off your high horse might enable you to see other points of view.

Crazy Jay wrote:
That's wierd. I was under the impression that I was the one present at my games and not you. I'll have to let my opponents know that they actually did win those games, I'm sure they'll be thrilled to know it.

You make it sound like I play 1850 worth of standard space marines. That I don't bring bikes, and tanks and other things. I can't help that you feel tactial marines are worthless and I'm not going to change your mind. However, stepping off your high horse might enable you to see other points of view.

You can win with them, but they don't contribute anything in those victories. Generally speaking. If you are bringing bikes, it would be strictly better to dump all the tacs and bring more bikes. That's the problem with the current rules. I just don't feel tactical marines are useless. I've observed them being usless since 5th ed dropped.

I'm curious what army(ies) you own and play. While biker marine is better than an infantry marine, bike armies suffer from low model count. It's also fair to say that different units work better for different play styles and against different armies. Finally to say the tactical marines don't contribute to my victories when they are often holding a majority of objectives for multiple turns is to deny what actually wins games, victory points.

I have BA. And I play against admittedly a lot of Tau and Eldar power lists. See, I get tabled a lot. So I have nothing holding anything at the end of the game usually. Bringing more units that don't help me not get tabled is useless.

At the same time, pre-grav marines tried that tac holding action crap against me a lot, and I tabled them over and over with the old BA codex. And the ones who didn't catch on to the Tiggystar right away were STILL being tabled by my BA because their tac marines contributed nothing against me.

Yeah, I used to think Battle Sister Squads were bad, but they can at least take two melta guns in a squad of 5 and cost 10 points less than a 5 man tac squad.

Like everyone said, they're cheap as hell and good protection. Imagine a S8 AP3 Large Blast. Normally, that would wreck your marines, but instead, is most likely a glance/pen on your Rhino, that can't blow it up. Also, Dedicated is great being a fast objective holder (faster than your marines).

I like Razorbacks too, but they're a little more expensive and limited on capacity. Either way, don't forget you can tank shock to try and force units off an objective, or I've used it next to my Devestators to deny my opponents from flanking my backside.

My regular opponent lost his Landraider Terminus Ultra to a single shot from my Lascannon squad on the second turn ( Roll to hit: 2, 3, 5 roll to pen 6 roll to damage 6 - and yes, he was on full HP and undamaged 8) )

Does that make the Terminus Ultra useless?

I run 3 rhinos and a land raider in both HH and SM.

Really fun when done right.

Also, not sure if already mentioned, but Ravenguard can scout Rhinos. That is insanely useful for early rushes/Maelstrom objectives

My preferred set up is 2 squads of 5 Tacs with a Plasmagun and maybe a Combi-Plas in Rhinos.

Even when not using the extra capacity, I don't think it's worth the extra points for a Razorback. They're not even close to worth it for the H. Bolter, and the weapon upgrades are on the expensive side for AV 11.

The extra points saved help me to field more of the competitive units in the dex or even units that are more fun to play like Tac Terminators.

 master of ordinance wrote:
My regular opponent lost his Landraider Terminus Ultra to a single shot from my Lascannon squad on the second turn ( Roll to hit: 2, 3, 5 roll to pen 6 roll to damage 6 - and yes, he was on full HP and undamaged 8) )

Does that make the Terminus Ultra useless?

I'm sure we both realize that's a misrepresentation. Flip the argument - does this make Tacs amazing? Can you reliably expect a Tac Squad to blow up a Land Raider Terminus Ultra in one shot? Can you reliably expect to lose a Terminus Ultra in one lascannon shot? Anecdotes can be handy, but don't expect them to shift an argument...

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

Nope. Then again, my Rhinos are almost never on the board at the start of the game. My Rhinos are also Fast, so when they come in from Reserve, they can be anywhere in my table half on the turn they arrive, and anywhere on the board the following turn.

Reserves are very, very risky.

Reserves are only risky when you need them as soon as possible. Tactical Squads in Rhinos from a BSF aren't the sort of unit that I'll go crazy trying to get onto the table as soon as possible.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Reserves are only risky when you need them as soon as possible. Tactical Squads in Rhinos from a BSF aren't the sort of unit that I'll go crazy trying to get onto the table as soon as possible.

True, but the Rhinos do add to armor saturation still.