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 thegreatchimp wrote:
Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

Probably 5pts better spent elsewhere (like on Meltabombs). Keep in mind that vehicles, unless they are Fast or Heavy, can only shoot 1 weapon at full BS if they move at Combat Speed with everything else fired as Snapshots. If you Flatout, then you can't fire them at all. So if you're moving your Rhino around, which is sorta the entire point of having it in the first place, then 2 Bolter Snapshots are pretty useless.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Rhino is good for one reason. It is cheap. If there was a stronger more expensive alternative - it would be used. Something in the 90-140 point range that had multiple guns and armor 12 is what a transport needs to be. Rhinos are just cheap - that is all.

That's just wrong.

At 35 points, the Rhino and the Pod are both undercosted and amazing at their one single job.

You generally don't want mixed roles in an army, as is the case of the 140 point Wave Serpent (more like 135 -145).

Here's why:

A transport you must be able to sacrifice in order to bring its contents to their destination, as fast and as safe as possible.

The Rhino will never waste a turn shooting when it can flat out, whereas an expensive troops carrier doesn't have that option.

The Rhino doesn't care that it's going to be charged next turn, because it's 35 points, whereas an expensive troops carrier is not something you want to lose just for dropping some troops.


A good counter-example to your approach is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

When you bring a Wave Serpent close enough to drop Fire Dragons, you will either be within 18-20" with your rear armor showing, or within 13-15" with your front armor showing.
In one case, you are pretty much giving up your tank to shooting, and in the other case, to assault.
And that is just to be able to use the Fire Dragons, which will certainly die on the next turn.
If I had the option, those Fire Dragons would be in Drop Pods.

Rhinos have a lot of versatility and can certainly be worth it. The CSM variant seems to be more effective than the loyalist one.

Here's some ideas on how to use them.

1) Park some Noise Marines behind a wall of 3 of them and let the opponent come to you without moving (which is important b/c of salvo).

2) Give them havoc launchers and you basically have a Razorback.

3) Use those firing points to turn them into plasma Rhinos.

4) Keep them behind your troops to offer them some protection, and use them to get across the board when it's time to secure objectives.

Rhinos exist to give Tau and Eldar easy target-practice victories (who doesn't love ridiculous S7 spam at 36''-60'', followed up by long range AP2 pie plates), and demonstrate that even a Tactical Squad in the right place isn't effective or worth the excessive amount of points you spent on them.

In real war, a non-IFV mechanised assault can have a smoke screen created in front of it by means of mortars or artillery, and this can allow the weakly armoured transports to get their contents where they need to be facing minimal fire.

In 40k, they have to survive multiple turns of shooting from an entire gunline, and at best they can get one turn of 5+ cover that is ultimately terrible and doesn't change a thing.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Rhinos exist to give Tau and Eldar easy target-practice victories (who doesn't love ridiculous S7 spam at 36''-60'', followed up by long range AP2 pie plates), and demonstrate that even a Tactical Squad in the right place isn't effective or worth the excessive amount of points you spent on them.

In real war, a non-IFV mechanised assault can have a smoke screen created in front of it by means of mortars or artillery, and this can allow the weakly armoured transports to get their contents where they need to be facing minimal fire.

In 40k, they have to survive multiple turns of shooting from an entire gunline, and at best they can get one turn of 5+ cover that is ultimately terrible and doesn't change a thing.

In 40K, you pay 35 points, or two and a half marines, to cross most of the DMZ in a single turn.
It's too bad that there isn't very interesting cargo to transport, but that's hardly the fault of the APC.

I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

Martel732 wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Do you find that using Rhinos is almost handing First Blood to your opponent?

I play for last blood, not first blood.

Exalted!

morgoth wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

I good opponent actually should be able to mitigate the damage if they want to, but I agree that they are easier to use.

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Rhino is good for one reason. It is cheap. If there was a stronger more expensive alternative - it would be used. Something in the 90-140 point range that had multiple guns and armor 12 is what a transport needs to be. Rhinos are just cheap - that is all.

That's just wrong.

At 35 points, the Rhino and the Pod are both undercosted and amazing at their one single job.

You generally don't want mixed roles in an army, as is the case of the 140 point Wave Serpent (more like 135 -145).

Here's why:

A transport you must be able to sacrifice in order to bring its contents to their destination, as fast and as safe as possible.

The Rhino will never waste a turn shooting when it can flat out, whereas an expensive troops carrier doesn't have that option.

The Rhino doesn't care that it's going to be charged next turn, because it's 35 points, whereas an expensive troops carrier is not something you want to lose just for dropping some troops.


A good counter-example to your approach is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

When you bring a Wave Serpent close enough to drop Fire Dragons, you will either be within 18-20" with your rear armor showing, or within 13-15" with your front armor showing.
In one case, you are pretty much giving up your tank to shooting, and in the other case, to assault.
And that is just to be able to use the Fire Dragons, which will certainly die on the next turn.
If I had the option, those Fire Dragons would be in Drop Pods.

Drop pods are obviously under costed because they give you first turn deep strike (and you can walk out of them the turn your deep strike) anywhere on the board and basically ignore mishap (all for the cost of a cardboard box). Then after that they are still tougher than a rhino and therefore harder to kill. Rhinos on the other hand are cardboard boxes for 35 points - you get what you pay for with a rhino and it's not much. Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

I good opponent actually should be able to mitigate the damage if they want to, but I agree that they are easier to use.

If you try to mitigate the damage, you lose something else.

In other words, the simple fact of including Drop Pods in your army is already going to put your opponent on the back foot and net you an advantage.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Probably 5pts better spent elsewhere (like on Meltabombs). Keep in mind that vehicles, unless they are Fast or Heavy, can only shoot 1 weapon at full BS if they move at Combat Speed with everything else fired as Snapshots. If you Flatout, then you can't fire them at all. So if you're moving your Rhino around, which is sorta the entire point of having it in the first place, then 2 Bolter Snapshots are pretty useless.

Yeah I know what you mean & you're probably right -meltabombs or a flamer would be a better spend. What I had in mind with the rhino was going flat out, unloading the squad in a suitable position as soon as possible, and then leaving the rhino stationary -preferably in cover- rattling away with the 2 sb-s and generally being more than just a nuisance. I've built a heavy bolter razorback with the same role in mind but I'm started weighing it up against the above rhino loudout -the extra transport capacity might make it the better option. (I know there's better weapon options for the razorback but I'm reluctant to splash points out 30 or 40 points on an AV11 vehicle)

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

Cheap Eldar guardians ?

I don't think S3T3Sv5+ for 9 points a model qualifies for cheap tbh. And they're not better than Space Marines per point.

Rhinos themselves are undercosted, they just lack anything interesting to transport in order for it to become obvious.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

Depends on whether you're fighting armies with lots of 4+ saves, and whether you want that extra transport capacity. The main argument against giving your rhino another storm bolter is that you can only actually fire it at full BS if you don't move - which sort of defeats the point of a rhino (at the very least you should be . With a Razorback, you can at least scoot around 6" every turn and fire your gun.

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

Cheap Eldar guardians ?

I don't think S3T3Sv5+ for 9 points a model qualifies for cheap tbh. And they're not better than Space Marines per point.

Rhinos themselves are undercosted, they just lack anything interesting to transport in order for it to become obvious.

You forgot to mention BS 4, assault 2 sudo-rending shots and the ability to run afterwards to gain cover saves, making 5+ armor not matter. They're really a bargain for 9 points, especially since last iteration they were 8 points for BS 3, no sudo-rending and no ability to run after shooting.

EDIT: I'm not saying they're undercosted though. I think they're pretty good.

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then theres the issue of what to put in a rhino. If you could put some cheap eldar gardians or IG vets in them Rhinos might even be great - when you are putting overpriced and under-damaging tac marines in them - they are far from undercosted - this point has been over stated and overstated.

Cheap Eldar guardians ?

I don't think S3T3Sv5+ for 9 points a model qualifies for cheap tbh. And they're not better than Space Marines per point.

Rhinos themselves are undercosted, they just lack anything interesting to transport in order for it to become obvious.

You forgot to mention BS 4, assault 2 sudo-rending shots and the ability to run afterwards to gain cover saves, making 5+ armor not matter. They're really a bargain for 9 points, especially since last iteration they were 8 points for BS 3, no sudo-rending and no ability to run after shooting.

EDIT: I'm not saying they're undercosted though. I think they're pretty good.

Yes... sudo rending, what package is that again ? not available for my distro ? noway.

It's written pseudo rending.

Compared to SMTac, Guardians are just garbage.
The odd AP1 shot with bladestorm doesn't make up for their lack of everything. Tac Marines are way better per point against vehicles, in CC, against everything that is AP4 or worse, against everything that is S5 and less, ignore morale, have way better transport and weapon options, ...
Besides, most of the time their Battle Focus will be used to get in range, and it's not like you can hide ten guardians with just one run.
Compared to Ork Boyz, Termagants or AM footsoldiers, they're just overpriced and pointless.

Their last iteration was pure garbage, even worse than now, still doesn't make them comparable to cheap troops, like MSU Tac.

Guardians are automatically better because they're cheaper...

So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

Drop pods have an achilles heel of forcing the marine player to commit early. I've seen drop pods backfire quite a bit. They are not undercosted, and I don't even like using them. If I had access to something as good as the WS, I'd use it constantly.

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport.

Not only are those very different in terms of points, they're very different in battlefield roles and raw power.

I have explained above why the Wave Serpent is not a good transport. It's a good tank, but it's become a bad transport. You don't buy a Wave Serpent as a mobility option for a unit, you buy a unit as an excuse to get another MBT.

Rhinos are perfect, what's missing is a competitive unit that needs the transport ability, and a severe recost of the Drop Pods.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Have toyed with the idea of running 2 storm bolters on a rhino. Has anyone had much success with that? I'm weighing it up against a heavy bolter razorback.

Not since I could give them Ignores Cover and fire both storm bolters on the move. Back when I could do that, it was awesome.

Their cheap as chips and they give marines mobility to a ludicrous end. They literally are one of the most effective ways of moving models around to the point most guardsmen players would kill to acquire them because of their price and effectiveness.

Their a workhorse vehicle through and through and if all the reasons I and others have given are not enough they are iconic. Marines without rhinos is like orks not stompin on Thursday... It simply isn't done. Even the gk's use them and almost nobody in their army can ride them hahaha

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

The Rhino would be diabled by the WS trivially and then the marines shot to pieces before they could get close enough to use their weapons against the WS.

Martel732 wrote:

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport..

10 Tac Marines with Plasmagun, Plasma pistol, Power Fist and Rhino are 230 pts.
10 Gaurdians with kitted Wave Serpent is 225 pts.

What's wrong with comparing these two? They both fulfill Troops selections and both have objective secured in a combined arms detachment.

The Rhino would be diabled by the WS trivially and then the marines shot to pieces before they could get close enough to use their weapons against the WS.

And yet they cost the same. Rhinos and Tac Marines just don't fit together. Drop Pods are the only way to make Tac Marines competitive.

Its a LoS Shenanigan jerk is what it is lol

No, seriously, it is a jerk for blocking LoS.

Move - Disembark - Occupants shoot - Rhino moves flat out to block further LoS from enemies to your now disembarked unit.

35 points of SHENANIGANS!

morgoth wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I have tried Rhinos and I know how people use them but I have never had much luck with them unfortunately. I can never seem to get my troops quite where I want them before the Rhino gets blown up. I rely a lot on DS and Drop Pods now which has been a lot more effective for me. Maybe it's that I use DS tactics better but I find it performed better for me than a Rhino. I understand why people use them and I have definitely seen them work the way everyone talks about here but for some reason, I don't get the same mileage out of them.

It's just that Drop Pods are more undercosted and infinitely easier to use because your opponent can't do a thing about them and they rarely if ever fail.

Unlike Rhinos, it's almost impossible to use them wrong.

not if you roll like me 2 games i gave first blood with it by mishapping(i put it 11 inches from the edge first game and of course double 6 into the edge, one aaand FIRST BLOOD AND I LOST MY 10 MAN STERNGUARD UNIT ) second game same ... But when they aren't giving first blood then they are scattering into worst possible places... tl;dr my drop pods just hate me so i use rhinos

Rhinos are great 40k vehicles they scream, 'mad insane death or glory charges' they alway blow up or get immobilised that's what they do it the glory they achieve dong it!

cool manoeuvre to try with the rhino(s)

You will need: 2 rhinos and marines nearby (or filled with marines), incoming very assault orientated enemy squad (for example ork boyz)

when the nasties are just about to hit the squishy marines, park the two rhinos in front of the incoming squad (and with the marines behind) so the left rhino's bottom right corner is touching the right rhinos bottom left corner at a 45 degree angle. There is no need to try to escape, you can stand still and rapid fire through the gap in the rhinos joining, whilst the next turn you will be safely guarded by walls of ceramite with the opponent unable to assault you. Watch said ork/tyranid/insert horde army owner rage

This manoeuvre makes rhinos worth 35 points, as if they weren't already

 redrooster148 wrote:
cool manoeuvre to try with the rhino(s)

You will need: 2 rhinos and marines nearby (or filled with marines), incoming very assault orientated enemy squad (for example ork boyz)

when the nasties are just about to hit the squishy marines, park the two rhinos in front of the incoming squad (and with the marines behind) so the left rhino's bottom right corner is touching the right rhinos bottom left corner at a 45 degree angle. There is no need to try to escape, you can stand still and rapid fire through the gap in the rhinos joining, whilst the next turn you will be safely guarded by walls of ceramite with the opponent unable to assault you. Watch said ork/tyranid/insert horde army owner rage

This manoeuvre makes rhinos worth 35 points, as if they weren't already

This is the reason you get Rhinos. Peek a Boo tactics are always good.

morgoth wrote:

Zimko wrote:
So you're saying Eldar Gaurdians and their transport/weapon options are crap compared to Tac Marines and their options? It's really a matter of opinion but I respectfully disagree. I think they're both capable of performing their own battlefield roles for a relatively decent price.

Back on topic though... Take those same 10 Tac Marines and put them in a Rhino and compare that to 10 Gaurdians in a Wave Serpent and I think the Gaurdians are the clear winner in both objective grabbing and killing power. Drop Pods are undercosted for what they do while Rhinos just don't fit in. An above poster was saying that if Tac Marines had an option for a mid-cost transport like a Razorback with more armor then that would be viable over Drop Pods (kind of like a Wave Serpent).

You're comparing 90 points of Guardians enabling the purchase of a 145 point MBT with 140 points of Tactical Marines enabling the purchase of a 35 point transport.

Not only are those very different in terms of points, they're very different in battlefield roles and rawhide power.

I have explained above why the Wave Serpent is not a good transport. It's a good tank, but it's become a bad transport. You don't buy a Wave Serpent as a mobility option for a unit, you buy a unit as an excuse to get another MBT.

Rhinos are perfect, what's missing is a competitive unit that needs the transport ability, and a severe recost of the Drop Pods.

Skimmer so it moves over terrain. Fast skimmer so turbo-boosting is excellent. 2+ against pens, 3+ cover save in the open. Av12. That's a pretty damn good transport, if using it as a transport. Can take melta armed troops, wraithcannon armed troops and psudo rending troops.

Yeh it's good.

But nothing I ever say to you about a wave serpent will go in so lets just leave it there.