Warhammer - games workshop models are already too expensive and rising excessively in price over the years. Then go take a look at forge world. Basically everything at least double the cost for a comparable item from GW - plus you gotta ship it from England. I know this is losing them business because I don't see their models anywhere. I was actually about to buy one until I figured the conversion rate to USD and was just shocked what they are charging for fine-cast models that probably don't even fit together right. Thought it would be cool to have one of those and fun to play with but nah...I'll just buy another IK instead.

I was looking to get some earthshaker cannons. Until I saw they cost £71 each!!! Plus 12% shipping for uk. So £79.52 for 1. AND you have to pay that 12% no matter how many models you buy.

Absolutely crazy! A basilisk which includes the earthshaker plus a whole bloody tank to mount it on costs £31 from GW. What on earth are FW playing at with that pricing??? I can get more than 2 and a half basilisks for the price of 1 frikkin earthshaker. WT holy F?

Yes, FW is expensive. Nothing new about that.

Honestly, the price is what it is, you either feel the product is worth the asking price or it isn't.

The big issue is the dumb shipping charges and the somewhat lacklustre service that accompanies it. I finally caved and ordered some decals last week, as I had a number of projects either stalled or pending that my life will be a lot easier when completing them with the proper decals.

It's taken me several weeks to convince myself the time saved and finished quality will be worth the price, having finally made my peace with It and placed the order.

Assuming they don't work weekends, it took almost three days to dispatch and then it was sent 2nd class. Not exactly a premium service, and worse than many small EBay sellers and etailers I've used - and I've paid somewhere in the region of 3x the cost of the postage for it.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Plus 12% shipping for uk. So £79.52 for 1. AND you have to pay that 12% no matter how many models you buy.

In case you weren't aware, FW Express shipping is free worldwide for orders over £250. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Home/Shipping-Charges.html

(Not making any comment about their prices, just wanted to point out that it isn't true that shipping is 12% "no matter how many models you buy".)

Plus they have the worst out of bag quality I have ever seen from a model company.

Can't you get Forge World shipped to your local Games Workshop store for free? I haven't been to be local GW store for obvious reasons, but I don't see why the stores wouldn't still have pretty much their only reason for existence.

I've bought a fair bit of HH stuff and the quality has been pretty spot on. Yeah it's expensive, but the models are lovely, the written material is fantastic, and it always has been expensive. It's nearly cheaper than actual GW stuff in Australia, they don't hike their prices very often unlike GW and I actually feel like I get what you pay for.

Not that I'd complain if they did drop their prices, but it is what it is. They're obviously doing okay with the prices where they are now.

The evidence is that Forge World model sales are not falling in the same way as GW's. Thus, they are not overpriced.

The reason is that Forge World are the real version of what GW claims to sell -- high quality special models for serious modellers and collectors.

FW stuff is expensive, in some cases absurdly so. However, they've always claimed to be the expensive niche studio, and have been up front and honest about that. Additionally, their prices rise largely in line with inflation and are largely stagnant. They're expensive, but they stay honestly expensive.

GW's core products on the other hand have gotten increasingly expensive, out of all proportion with inflation, to the point where many of their products now match equivalent FW models on price (things like blister-pack characters, Tempestus Scions vs DKoK Grenadiers, etc).

Ferraris are expensive! They should be more affordable, too.

Can you guys get any more entitled? It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money.

Ferraris are a Veblen good.

The OP suggests that keener pricing may result in greater sales, which isn't an idea without merit.

Can you please try and contribute rather than just hurl insults?

I don't mind (as much) for paying for Forge World items, though what I DO mind is paying out the ass for shipping. It does NOT cost that much to put it in a box with some bubble wrap and send it on its merry way. Especially for a business.

Forgewould should drop their prices if they want me to buy directly from them instead of...other...sources.

 Magos Explorator wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Plus 12% shipping for uk. So £79.52 for 1. AND you have to pay that 12% no matter how many models you buy.

In case you weren't aware, FW Express shipping is free worldwide for orders over £250. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Home/Shipping-Charges.html

(Not making any comment about their prices, just wanted to point out that it isn't true that shipping is 12% "no matter how many models you buy".)

Ah no I was not aware of this. Thank you for the info. Sorry to anyone if I accidentally misled.

Forge World losing business hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I`m sorry but no. Hell i`d guess FW most likely make up most of GW`s revenue.

I they are expensive but what`s not now a days

Motograter wrote:
Forge World losing business hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I`m sorry but no. Hell i`d guess FW most likely make up most of GW`s revenue.

I they are expensive but what`s not now a days

I dont know, not very often GW has to pull things off thew shelves because they dont sell. FW has ha to pull their giant Kroot chickens and Tallarn riders and more off the product line.

Also FW by the sounds of it needs to replace like every 5 kits it sends out (probably why their shipping coasts are high, to try pay for all their failures) so I dont think they are doing that well.

Just my opinion though.

 crazyredpraetorian wrote:
Ferraris are expensive! They should be more affordable, too.

Can you guys get any more entitled? It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money.

This.

 Peregrine wrote:

 crazyredpraetorian wrote:
Ferraris are expensive! They should be more affordable, too.

Can you guys get any more entitled? It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money.

This.

Just because you look vaguely like one of the guys from the Inbetweeners doesn't give you the right to be so disparaging

It's not Ferrari anyway, it's Porsche.

Although, does anyone genuinely buy FW because of the name/brand? Or, is it a vehicle that's capable of leaving others behind in the dust and with a roar of engine to set your veins on fire (to draw out the analogy, are FW that much better than another sculpt?)

I think the comparison stops there.

Motograter wrote:
Forge World losing business hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I`m sorry but no. Hell i`d guess FW most likely make up most of GW`s revenue.

I they are expensive but what`s not now a days

Not sure on the last interim, but IIRC the last full year report put FW and BL combined at ~10% of revenue.

So, yeah, if you had to guess, you'd have been massively off. When it comes to companies that are legally compelled to disclose their accounting details, there's really no need to.

 Pacific wrote:
to draw out the analogy, are FW that much better than another sculpt?

Compared to "main" GW? Yes.

Anyway, whether or not FW is truly a Ferrari equivalent doesn't really matter. The point here is that the OP is yet another "I can't afford X so they should make it cheaper because I want it" rant with no purpose. If you're going to talk about what GW should do then you need to support it with some analysis of GW's financial situation and arguments that doing what you propose would benefit GW, and that's completely absent here.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Forgewould should drop their prices if they want me to buy directly from them instead of...other...sources.

It seems I'm not alone in this

In my modest opinion FW are way too expensive for what they offer. They have some really interesting kits, yes, and I would be interested in them if they were like half the price. As they are now, sorry, but not worth the money as I see it.

And as far as I know, considering what they charge and the "boutique product" aura, they have some serious issues with quality control.

 Swastakowey wrote:

I dont know, not very often GW has to pull things off thew shelves because they dont sell. FW has ha to pull their giant Kroot chickens and Tallarn riders and more off the product line.

They're not pulled off the shelves - they just sell what stock they have and don't do another production run.

Since no one else has said it yet, FW is the same price as GW for an alarmingly large number of items when looking at OZ, NZ and I think Japanese prices.


Having said that I really feel FW isn't worth what they are asking anymore. Once upon a time they where the boutique store selling things at a high prince but at excellent quality to make up for it. These days they just pump out the same HH stuff over and over again with different iconography or weapon loadouts and you no longer are amazed by every single thing you see them put out. The quality has dropped well below being worth the asking prince IMO.

Of course actually lowering prices is impractical in so many ways, but the value isn't there anymore.

As someone who owns alot of forgeworld stuff I would say it is pretty reasonably priced, the quality on the kits is fantastic and they are always the models in my army that my opponent admires the most, part of they joy is that not everyone owns the exact same models.

Forge world and Black Library are carrying GW on their shoulders at this time. They are the only two arms of the company not shrinking and are in fact growing.

Forge World was always expensive, always a 'premier' line. What's remarkable and sad and, I would suggest, a reason GW is so far into the gak right now, is that it really isn't that much more expensive than GW's plastics these days. It really isn't a leap to move from collecting a Guard army to a DKoK one... That should be raising alarm bells, but in the self fulfilling circle jerk at the top of GW, they believe they can move the entire range into 'niche', when the entire range was always in 'niche' and always considered expensive when i was a kid getting into it, 30 years ago, now it's gotten to the stage that I cannot really justify much of any purchase from GW proper when I can drop a couple of bucks more and get the FW version.

FW prices are what they are, it's the GW plastics that should go through the floor. Soon or else...

Vote with your wallet. When their sales go down so will the prices.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Since no one else has said it yet, FW is the same price as GW for an alarmingly large number of items when looking at OZ, NZ and I think Japanese prices.

I remember someone on here saying that in Japan, it's cheaper to order DKoK from FW than it is to buy plastic Cadians in store, because FW charge you in GBP and your bank converts it at the current rate, whilst GW uses some fantasy rate.

That said, there are characters that are cheaper from FW than GW now, I think it's apothecaries are available in a 2-pack from FW for about £24, whilst the plastic GW equivalents are about £18 each.

Not that it's not overpriced, it's just compared to the crazt prices of base GW stuff, FW looks better value because it's hand-cast resin and is that bit more exclusive. I still can't bring myself to buy much of it though.

 Korinov wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Forgewould should drop their prices if they want me to buy directly from them instead of...other...sources.

It seems I'm not alone in this

In my modest opinion FW are way too expensive for what they offer. They have some really interesting kits, yes, and I would be interested in them if they were like half the price. As they are now, sorry, but not worth the money as I see it.

And as far as I know, considering what they charge and the "boutique product" aura, they have some serious issues with quality control.

QFT!

Just recently I found a different "source" I now have 3 armies comprised of all FW and it cost less than one of their armies. I would rather my money go to FW but they are insane to charge what they do.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Forge world and Black Library are carrying GW on their shoulders at this time. They are the only two arms of the company not shrinking and are in fact growing.

Well, BL and FW are counted under the "Mail Order" umbrella in their financial report. Both in the current interim report and last year's the mail order category accounts for approx 20% of the overall revenue, and the amount of actual cash taken in the latest report has fallen YOY.

So while I can't categorically state you're wrong about BL and FW's growing, as they may well be accounting for a larger percentage of the Mail Order category this year than last - neither is there any data I can see to support the assertion that they're growing.

One thing is for certain, one can't state that two sub-divisions that, in total, don't account for 20% of the total revenue combined are carrying the company in a financial sense. FW alone are probably responsible for preserving a substantial amount of any remaining goodwill, but financially? Nope.

I think that complaining about FW and buying GW is gagging on a gnat and swallowing a horse.

FW is a little bit expensive, but it is also a specialty product. FW doesn't sell, doesn't expect to sell, and isn't set up to sell a huge amount of product. If FW started selling a single kit like some GW kits, they'd need to restructure the company. It is designed as a specialty store, to sell limited amounts of models to hobbyists. They don''t benefit from the economies of scale of other GW production, and they don't get the budget for design, modeling, and production that GW central does. It isn't two guys in a basement, but it's not the Design Studio and the GW production line, either.

I think that their prices could be a little lower, but overall, they are about in line with what business they anticipate doing.

On the other hand, you have GW proper, who has in-house plastic mold tooling, and charges completely random prices for various kits with the exact same number of sprues and size. $20 to $28 US for a single monopose character in plastic? Ridiculous. $50 for some 10 man units? Insane.

When the part of the company that is doing 90% of the business overcharges by about 30%, complaining about the 10% of the business that overcharges maybe 20% seems misguided.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ferraris are a Veblen good.

The OP suggests that keener pricing may result in greater sales, which isn't an idea without merit.

Can you please try and contribute rather than just hurl insults?

Maybe or is it just more thinly veiled whining about pricing? The reality is that business does not increase enough to cover deep discounts and lets be honest here that is what hobbyists are looking for. It's just does not make good business sense. Look at how many discount retailers go out of business. It is not a sustainable business model unless huge volumes are being turned over.

BTW, I owned game stores for over 10 years. So, I do a know a thing or two about this business.

I didn't hurl insults, I made an observation. The constant complaining about GW's pricing is the deadest horse on the ranch. So, please stop being so oversensitive.

 primalexile wrote:
Just recently I found a different "source" I now have 3 armies comprised of all FW and it cost less than one of their armies. I would rather my money go to FW but they are insane to charge what they do.

And of course, what price whine thread would be complete without people proudly declaring how they're entitled to buy illegal recasts if GW doesn't give them what they want.

As resin miniatures go - they aren't horribly priced. Some are even fair.

The nature of their work has suffered though - what with their new focus as Marines'R'Us. I used to like to see what the new releases were - but that has largely gone the way of the dodo, each release is a lot like the last release.

It would be interesting to see them raise their prices a touch. That would probably kill off GWs business in the RotW outside of Europe and North America. I know a lot of people in Australia and New Zealand in particular who are only still buying GW products in the form of Forge World...

Da Butcha wrote:
I think that complaining about FW and buying GW is gagging on a gnat and swallowing a horse.

FW is a little bit expensive, but it is also a specialty product. FW doesn't sell, doesn't expect to sell, and isn't set up to sell a huge amount of product. If FW started selling a single kit like some GW kits, they'd need to restructure the company. It is designed as a specialty store, to sell limited amounts of models to hobbyists. They don''t benefit from the economies of scale of other GW production, and they don't get the budget for design, modeling, and production that GW central does. It isn't two guys in a basement, but it's not the Design Studio and the GW production line, either.

I think that their prices could be a little lower, but overall, they are about in line with what business they anticipate doing.

On the other hand, you have GW proper, who has in-house plastic mold tooling, and charges completely random prices for various kits with the exact same number of sprues and size. $20 to $28 US for a single monopose character in plastic? Ridiculous. $50 for some 10 man units? Insane.

When the part of the company that is doing 90% of the business overcharges by about 30%, complaining about the 10% of the business that overcharges maybe 20% seems misguided.

This is my main problem, too. Forge World models are expensive, yes, but they're gorgeous, well sculpted, and made of better quality material. If I really wanted something from Forge World, I'd have no problem with the prices. They're honestly quite fair, when you take into account the work that goes into the master sculpts, the size, the quality, etc.

My problem is when I want a handful of Skyclaws, and it's $40 for ten of them, in plastic. Or when a pack of 3 TWC that contains less plastic and took less work to produce costs $15 more, because on top of their already inflated prices, they then price things based on how they perform on the field, screwing the young player who can't afford more than some boyz, grots, and a couple meks on the pay from their first, crappy, minimum wage job, but giving guaranteed wins to the guy who can drop $450 on a 3 Knight without blinking.

 crazyredpraetorian wrote:
Ferraris are expensive! They should be more affordable, too.

Can you guys get any more entitled? It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money.

And the award for adding absolutely nothing to the conversation goes to...

 Peregrine wrote:

 primalexile wrote:
Just recently I found a different "source" I now have 3 armies comprised of all FW and it cost less than one of their armies. I would rather my money go to FW but they are insane to charge what they do.

And of course, what price whine thread would be complete without people proudly declaring how they're entitled to buy illegal recasts if GW doesn't give them what they want.

Probably not a discussion for this thread, but that's usually what people tends to do: when someone does not give you what you want, you look for it elsewhere.

 Korinov wrote:
Probably not a discussion for this thread, but that's usually what people tends to do: when someone does not give you what you want, you look for it elsewhere.

No, that's what entitled people do. A more reasonable person would say "GW's prices are too high, I'll spend my money on something else" instead of buying illegal recasts because they feel entitled to have GW's products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
And the award for adding absolutely nothing to the conversation goes to...

You, for posting a spammy reply to a perfectly legitimate post. Pointing out that most GW price complaints are the equivalent of demanding a cheaper Ferrari is a constructive thing to say. The fact that you disagree with an opinion doesn't mean that it isn't adding anything to the discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
they then price things based on how they perform on the field

No they don't. GW's product line is full of expensive kits with terrible rules, and cheaper kits with awesome rules. And knights are in that second category: the model is expensive, but since it costs so many points it's actually very cost-effective compared to an equal point total built from multiple cheaper kits.

Peregrine mate, your coming across as a proper elitist snob, I don't think that's your intent but that is how your coming across.

Its not entitlement to want something to cost less so they can enjoy it, it is simply wanting to pay what they believe to be a fair price, which is entirely subjective, calling them entitled for making an entirely fair and subjective point makes you seem alto worse than I think you intended.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Probably not a discussion for this thread, but that's usually what people tends to do: when someone does not give you what you want, you look for it elsewhere.

No, that's what entitled people do. A more reasonable person would say "GW's prices are too high, I'll spend my money on something else" instead of buying illegal recasts because they feel entitled to have GW's products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
And the award for adding absolutely nothing to the conversation goes to...

You, for posting a spammy reply to a perfectly legitimate post. Pointing out that most GW price complaints are the equivalent of demanding a cheaper Ferrari is a constructive thing to say. The fact that you disagree with an opinion doesn't mean that it isn't adding anything to the discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
they then price things based on how they perform on the field

No they don't. GW's product line is full of expensive kits with terrible rules, and cheaper kits with awesome rules. And knights are in that second category: the model is expensive, but since it costs so many points it's actually very cost-effective compared to an equal point total built from multiple cheaper kits.

Yeah, until you take into account that Knights basically cost more in terms of actual money in exchange for the fact that they cost 1/2-2/3 of what they should cost, pointswise, for how they perform.

And c'mon Man, you know Damn well That gw prices models based on how they perform on the table, they have always done this in the 25 years I've been playing, I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed

 Formosa wrote:
PIts not entitlement to want something to cost less so they can enjoy it, it is simply wanting to pay what they believe to be a fair price, which is entirely subjective, calling them entitled for making an entirely fair and subjective point makes you seem alto worse than I think you intended.

Wanting something to cost less isn't entitlement. What is entitlement is buying illegal recasts when GW doesn't meet your demands because you feel like you have a right to own GW's products no matter how many laws you have to break to get them.

Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

 Formosa wrote:
And c'mon Man, you know Damn well That gw prices models based on how they perform on the table, they have always done this in the 25 years I've been playing, I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed

No, GW very clearly does not price their models based on their tabletop performance. Example:

Stormtalon gunship, a decent flyer rules-wise that a lot of marine players like: $45 (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Stormtalon-Gunship)

Nephilim fighter, one of the worst units in the game and a model kit that nobody who cares about winning would ever buy (unless it's for a conversion project): $75 (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-Nephilim-Jetfigher)

What GW does do is a degree of pricing units relative to their point cost rather than their material costs (tactical squads are more expensive than guardsmen, etc) so that the total cost of buying X points worth of models is relatively constant, but that doesn't have anything to do with how powerful the unit is. The real explanation for expensive overpowered models is that GW sucks at writing rules, and the "pay to win" stuff is the most memorable form of their balance failures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Yeah, until you take into account that Knights basically cost more in terms of actual money in exchange for the fact that they cost 1/2-2/3 of what they should cost, pointswise, for how they perform.

No, they don't cost more, and that's the whole point of what I was saying. Add up the price of the model kits required to build "conventional" units with a total point cost equal to a single knight and you'll find there isn't much of a price difference. In fact, depending on what army you play, buying X points worth of knights might actually be cheaper than buying X points worth of "conventional" units. The whole "knights cost too much" thing is nothing more than a myth started by people who stopped thinking about it once they saw the $140 price tag.

you have made the big mistake. Gw prices the models based on how they do on the table, elites cost more because there better, fast attack too, but since gw doesn't have a clue about there own game these days, they still price them this way, and sure you can throw a couple of examples of where it failed, but near enough the entire line is priced in this way, it's worse in fantasy

 Peregrine wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And c'mon Man, you know Damn well That gw prices models based on how they perform on the table, they have always done this in the 25 years I've been playing, I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed

No, GW very clearly does not price their models based on their tabletop performance. Example:

Stormtalon gunship, a decent flyer rules-wise that a lot of marine players like: $45 (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Stormtalon-Gunship)

Nephilim fighter, one of the worst units in the game and a model kit that nobody who cares about winning would ever buy (unless it's for a conversion project): $75 (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-Nephilim-Jetfigher)

What GW does do is a degree of pricing units relative to their point cost rather than their material costs (tactical squads are more expensive than guardsmen, etc), but that doesn't have anything to do with how powerful the unit is. The real explanation for expensive overpowered models is that GW sucks at writing rules, and the "pay to win" stuff is the most memorable form of their balance failures.

If I buy a wolf pack, with ten marines in it, I can run it as a maximum of 560pts, just with the bitz provided in the box, by running it with the most expensive weaponry in the box. All together, there's about 800 points worth of possible combinations in the box. If I buy a box of TWC for $15 more, I can run them at a maximum of 285 points, with maybe 400 points worth of total gear in that one box. That's not pricing based on the points, that's pricing based on the fact that hands down, TWC perform better on the table. That's not to say that there are never exceptions. Land Speeders, for example, are on of the most reasonably priced models I've seen compared to their utility, size, number of components, etc. But by and large, GW prices are largely based on tabletop performance.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Yeah, until you take into account that Knights basically cost more in terms of actual money in exchange for the fact that they cost 1/2-2/3 of what they should cost, pointswise, for how they perform.

No, they don't cost more, and that's the whole point of what I was saying. Add up the price of the model kits required to build "conventional" units with a total point cost equal to a single knight and you'll find there isn't much of a price difference. In fact, depending on what army you play, buying X points worth of knights might actually be cheaper than buying X points worth of "conventional" units. The whole "knights cost too much" thing is nothing more than a myth started by people who stopped thinking about it once they saw the $140 price tag.

 Formosa wrote:
elites cost more because there better, fast attack too

This is just laughably wrong, for two reasons:

1) Elites and FA aren't better. Each unit is generally more powerful, but they also tend to cost more points to make up for it. Remember, overpowered units are defined by their price to performance ratio, not merely by how big their numbers are.

2) GW's prices don't work this way. A 5-man terminator squad costs $50 compared to $40 for a 10-man tactical squad, but the 5-man terminator squad also costs a minimum of 200 points compared to ~150ish for the tactical squad. So if you want to add 1000 points to your army as cheaply as possible you're better off buying the terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
If I buy a wolf pack, with ten marines in it, I can run it as a maximum of 560pts

Why are we talking about stupid units? Nobody is ever going to use a 560 point squad of 10 marines unless they hate winning. When you instead look at more realistic units that you'll see that price and power are weakly connected at most, while price and point cost tend to have a much stronger connection.

But by and large, GW prices are largely based on tabletop performance.

Except they really aren't. Bad units often have expensive kits, and cheaper kits can be some of the most overpowered models. The idea that the most overpowered stuff is the most expensive is nothing more than confirmation bias.

Sigh, I see your one of those people that need everything spelled out for them and is unwilling to even consider that other opinions may have merit, ok I will do my best.

Here's what we know, terminators are bad in the current meta, this is due to the mass amount of ap2 around, we know this because we play(test) the game, thus we see terminators as subpar and not very good for the points. The plastic box has less in it that the tactical box but still costs more, why is this?

now in the world of gw, terminators are an excellent choice for everyone, they are an elite choice and thus you will need less of them, they are great on the tabletop due to stormbolters and a 2+ save, but a low model count, so let's charge a bit more as they are better and as an elite, you will likely only want a couple of boxes.

Back to reality, we know how the game works, so we wonder "why am I paying more for less plastic? " your answer is that gw seems to pick a magical number out of a hat and apply it to units arbitrarily, my answer uses prior knowledge and experience of gw business practices.

have I explained this better than last time?

AnFéasógMór wrote:
which disadvantages people who chose to spread out their spending

Sorry, but if people don't have enough self control to save up their money for a single big purchase instead of rushing to spend their money as fast as they earn it then they get no sympathy from me.

or even people who preferred to build an army conceptually, rather than just to win tournaments.

What does that have to do with prices? I'm not disputing the fact that GW's game balance sucks and hurts people whose theme is on the weak end of their balance mistakes, but those balance mistakes happen the same way regardless of the price of the models involved.

 Peregrine wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
If I buy a wolf pack, with ten marines in it, I can run it as a maximum of 560pts

Why are we talking about stupid units? Nobody is ever going to use a 560 point squad of 10 marines unless they hate winning. When you instead look at more realistic units that you'll see that price and power are weakly connected at most, while price and point cost tend to have a much stronger connection.
.

Except that the overall point value of the box is relevant. Of course nobody's going to run a 560 point squad of 10 marines. It's the fact that the points are there that matters. When I built my second squad of wolf pack marines, the only things I touched off of the sprue were the legs and torsoes. There were so many good weapons available on the first sprue, I didn't need the ones from the second one. My TWC? All armed with the weaponry from my wolf packs, because the TWC box doesn't come with most of the really good weaponry I need. My Las-Plas on my razorbacks? Converted with plasma guns from wolf packs, because they don't come with the kit needed to make the twin-linked plasma gun. Many of the cheapest, basic marine boxes contain more overall utility and gear than a lot of your elite units. But they're priced lower just because GW says "oh, well, they're just basic marines, so they should cost less than this elite box".

 Formosa wrote:
The plastic box has less in it that the tactical box but still costs more, why is this?

Because GW's pricing policy includes a rule that one point should cost $X. The terminators cost more for less plastic because they're more points than a tactical squad, which makes buying 1000 points of terminators cost the same as buying 1000 points of tactical squads. This eliminates the option to save money by buying a low model count army and ensures that GW gets the same amount of money from you no matter what army you choose to play.

now in the world of gw, terminators are an excellent choice for everyone, they are an elite choice and thus you will need less of them, they are great on the tabletop due to stormbolters and a 2+ save, but a low model count, so let's charge a bit more as they are better and as an elite, you will likely only want a couple of boxes.

Do you have any evidence for this train of thought from GW, or are you just assuming it works that way because it fits with your ideas about how GW must work?

your answer is that gw seems to pick a magical number out of a hat and apply it to units arbitrarily

No, that's not it. Did you read what I said at all? The whole point is that it isn't arbitrary, it's a calculated attempt to keep "cheap" armies out of the game. You can't save money by buying an all-terminator army like you could if prices were only determined by the amount of plastic in the box. Nor can you save money by playing with lots of troops instead of expensive elites. If you want a 1500 point Ultramarines army you're going to have to pay at least GW's target price for 1500 points.

have I explained this better than last time?

You're making the mistake of assuming that the fact that I disagree with you means that I didn't understand your explanation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Probably not a discussion for this thread, but that's usually what people tends to do: when someone does not give you what you want, you look for it elsewhere.

No, that's what entitled people do. A more reasonable person would say "GW's prices are too high, I'll spend my money on something else" instead of buying illegal recasts because they feel entitled to have GW's products.

Well, you may like it or not, but people are actually entitled to do what they please with their own money. And technically recasts are not only "something else", but something that many times has superior quality if compared with the original, official, ridiculously expensive product.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Of course nobody's going to run a 560 point squad of 10 marines. It's the fact that the points are there that matters.

If I'm never going to use that squad then why does it matter?

When I built my second squad of wolf pack marines, the only things I touched off of the sprue were the legs and torsoes. There were so many good weapons available on the first sprue, I didn't need the ones from the second one.

Now you're talking about extra bits on the sprue, not game balance. The infantry box isn't a good deal because of power level, it's a good deal because it has lots of spare conversion parts.

But they're priced lower just because GW says "oh, well, they're just basic marines, so they should cost less than this elite box".

But what does this have to do with game balance? Some of GW's worst balance mistakes are overpowered "basic troops". For example, if you build a troops-heavy IG army instead of using the expensive elite kits you'll get a cheaper army AND a more powerful army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
Well, you may like it or not, but people are actually entitled to do what they please with their own money.

And I'm entitled to judge them for buying illegal recasts instead of doing the right thing and accepting that they aren't going to own GW's products.

And technically recasts are not only "something else", but something that many times has superior quality if compared with the original, official, ridiculously expensive product.

That's nice. They're still illegal.

 Peregrine wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
which disadvantages people who chose to spread out their spending

Sorry, but if people don't have enough self control to save up their money for a single big purchase instead of rushing to spend their money as fast as they earn it then they get no sympathy from me.

or even people who preferred to build an army conceptually, rather than just to win tournaments.

What does that have to do with prices? I'm not disputing the fact that GW's game balance sucks and hurts people whose theme is on the weak end of their balance mistakes, but those balance mistakes happen the same way regardless of the price of the models involved.

Choosing to spread out your spending rather than buy a single big model has nothing to do with lack of self-control. I've dropped $150 bucks on a single 40k shopping trip. Hell, last contract I was working, I could have bought a Knight out of hand if I chose to. I chose to spend that money on multiple boxes, though. Partially, because I have never like Knights, and have no interest in playing one, but mostly because for me, I enjoy painting, I enjoy running a diverse squad, and I enjoy doing conversion work, and buying multiple boxes is better suited to that aspect of the hobby. That's my problem with it, is that GW is punishing players for not buying the one expensive model they want players to buy, just because it gets the money in their pockets faster.

after a quick Google search I can't see why it's ilegal to buy recasts, as I asked before, is this an American thing?

 Formosa wrote:
after a quick Google search I can't see why it's ilegal to buy recasts, as I asked before, is this an American thing?

It's illegal to create the recasts, so whether or not buying them is illegal it's still supporting illegal activity. It's only difficult to understand this concept if you're the kind of person whose moral system consists of little more than "what is best for me".

 Peregrine wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Of course nobody's going to run a 560 point squad of 10 marines. It's the fact that the points are there that matters.

If I'm never going to use that squad then why does it matter?

Um, for exactly the reasons I proceeded to explain literally a second later, in the exact same post?

 Peregrine wrote:
And I'm entitled to judge them for buying illegal recasts instead of doing the right thing and accepting that they aren't going to own GW's products.

Everybody's entitled to his/her own opinion. What the "right thing" is also tends to depend on each one's opinion, don't forget that. I'm also entitled to judge people who buys ridiculously overpriced products from companies with a history of dubiously moral practices.

And by the way, I don't see how "buying recasts" and "accepting they aren't going to own GW's products" are contradictory. Recasts are not GW's products.

That's nice. They're still illegal.

As pirated games and music, I guess.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Choosing to spread out your spending rather than buy a single big model has nothing to do with lack of self-control.

Yes it does. If you can't buy a $150 kit because every week you obsessively spend your entire hobby budget on the latest new release then that's nothing more than a lack of self control.

Partially, because I have never like Knights, and have no interest in playing one, but mostly because for me, I enjoy painting, I enjoy running a diverse squad, and I enjoy doing conversion work, and buying multiple boxes is better suited to that aspect of the hobby.

But what does that have to do with prices? Your preference to build lots of smaller models instead of one big one doesn't mean that the big one is overpriced.

That's my problem with it, is that GW is punishing players for not buying the one expensive model they want players to buy, just because it gets the money in their pockets faster.

Except that GW doesn't consistently do this. Their product line is full of expensive kits that are weaker than the cheaper alternatives (see the DA flyer vs C:SM flyer example). The knight happens to be a bit too powerful, but it could easily have been the equivalent of the IG Baneblade kit: a weak model that hardly any competitive players would ever use. And then you'd be punished for buying the single expensive model instead of several smaller ones that are better at winning games.

Ok so it's not ilegal, please stop calling people criminals then, and supporting ilegal activities is a massive grey area, you know that thing the whole world is, shades of grey, if your saying that by buying an item that supports ilegal activities makes us guilty of supporting crime, take all your sweatshop clothes back, stop eating McDonald's, stop shopping at walmart, hell just stop everything and go to prison on that white steed and live in that myopic black and white world of yours.

I hate to be insulting, but calling people guilty by association is plain wrong.

 Peregrine wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Choosing to spread out your spending rather than buy a single big model has nothing to do with lack of self-control.

Yes it does. If you can't buy a $150 kit because every week you obsessively spend your entire hobby budget on the latest new release then that's nothing more than a lack of self control.

You're not very good with reading comprehension, are you? You seem to have this tendency to pick the first sentence of people's posts, use it as a strawman to insult them, and ignore the rest of it. I explained exactly why it's not an issue of self control. The fact that other people like to do their hobbying in a different manner than you do isn't a negative reflection on their character. The fact that you feel a compulsive need to insult them for having a different approach to the hobby, that reflects very poorly on you.

Somebody who goes and buys 2 steaks at the store rather than one steak at Outback isn't lacking the self-control to save up to buy an outback steak, they're making a choice that they'd rather have two steaks from the grocery store.

Partially, because I have never like Knights, and have no interest in playing one, but mostly because for me, I enjoy painting, I enjoy running a diverse squad, and I enjoy doing conversion work, and buying multiple boxes is better suited to that aspect of the hobby.

But what does that have to do with prices? Your preference to build lots of smaller models instead of one big one doesn't mean that the big one is overpriced.

Because my point was that you're being punished in terms of game play for buying all the smaller models, at the same monetary cost, instead of the one big, expensive model you don't want or need.

 Korinov wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
Probably not a discussion for this thread, but that's usually what people tends to do: when someone does not give you what you want, you look for it elsewhere.

No, that's what entitled people do. A more reasonable person would say "GW's prices are too high, I'll spend my money on something else" instead of buying illegal recasts because they feel entitled to have GW's products.

Well, you may like it or not, but people are actually entitled to do what they please with their own money. And technically recasts are not only "something else", but something that many times has superior quality if compared with the original, official, ridiculously expensive product.

People are 'entitled' to do what they please with their own money. What does this mean in the discussion?

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying that I agree with Peregrine on this, but I don't know what stance you are taking.

If a person is 'entitled' to do what they please with their own money, then presumably, they are entitled to purchase illegal recasts, or pay a criminal to steal product from GW, or pay someone to assassinate bean-counters at GW until the terrified clerks decide to lower prices to appease a bloodthirsty mob. I don't think that you are arguing that people are actually entitled to do ANYTHING they please with their own money, but maybe you are.

If the point you are making is that they are entitled to do whatever they want with their own money, but they should expect to suffer any legal consequences of doing so, then that seems to be a trivial point to be making.

I don't want to put words in Peregrine's mouth, but I think his label of 'entitled' is being applied because the poster is not only saying that he intends to pay money for illegally recast merchandise, but also is confident that he will suffer no repercussions from doing so, and does not feel any moral qualms about violating either IP law or the general concept of counterfeiting, nor does he feel any social shame about boasting about doing so. Presumably, many such buyers would be outraged if they personally were supplied with counterfeit goods under false pretenses, but feel entitled to make such purchases themselves.

I don't want to get into a big discussion on the validity of IP law or the specifics of those laws in various countries. I do, however, think that 'entitled' is not a particularly bad word to describe someone who actually states an intention to violate the law simply because he cannot acquire a luxury product he wants under the law.

I mean, I'm not portraying myself as some crusading do-gooder, but when I could not afford Forgeworld products I wanted, I saved up the money, bought them second hand (and NOT from some mysteriously discounted Chinese/Russian source), or I didn't buy them. If I were planning on giving money to someone who was illlegally recasting FW models and selling them illegally, I certainly wouldn't be hinting at it obviously on the internet. I might feel shame or concern for violating the law.

I think that doing otherwise is the mark of someone who feels entitled to the models, whether they have any legal right to a box of them or not. We're not talking about being unable to afford food, or medicine here. It's not some basic human right that isn't being met. Someone can't buy the toys they want with the money they have.


(I also understand a lot of the vitriol directed at GW in general, but every single bloke I have ever met from Forgeworld seems like a totally decent guy, and any penny I spend on recasts instead of originals feels like money that they didn't get in their paycheck. I can understand the whole Robin Hood mentality, but the guys at FW don't seem like rich barons to me.)

 Formosa wrote:
Ok so it's not ilegal, please stop calling people criminals then, and supporting ilegal activities is a massive grey area, you know that thing the whole world is, shades of grey, if your saying that by buying an item that supports ilegal activities makes us guilty of supporting crime, take all your sweatshop clothes back, stop eating McDonald's, stop shopping at walmart, hell just stop everything and go to prison on that white steed and live in that myopic black and white world of yours.

I hate to be insulting, but calling people guilty by association is plain wrong.

Allow me to (hopefully) shed some light on matters.

Peregrine is generally only capable of arguing in black or white, trying to discuss any nuanced subject with shades of any colour is largely pointless.

Peregrine has mentioned in other threads he owns recasts, so any morality based argument he is making is on decidedly shaky ground.

Peregrine likes a fight - he's managed to argue with me in threads where I was agreeing with him.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Somebody who goes and buys 2 steaks at the store rather than one steak at Outback isn't lacking the self-control to save up to buy an outback steak, they're making a choice that they'd rather have two steaks from the grocery store.

But what does this analogy have to do with GW's prices? If buying multiple smaller things is the result of a genuine preference for smaller things (instead of the inability to save up for the big thing) then why is the existence of the big thing a problem? How is that evidence for "unfair" pricing?

Because my point was that you're being punished in terms of game play for buying all the smaller models, at the same monetary cost, instead of the one big, expensive model you don't want or need.

Except, again, this isn't how GW's prices work. You're focusing on one example of the big model being more powerful than the smaller models and ignoring the cases where the opposite is true. For example, a $140 Baneblade kit is weaker than its point cost in "normal" units, so in that case you're being "punished in terms of game play" for buying the bigger model instead of several smaller ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Peregrine has mentioned in other threads he owns recasts, so any morality based argument he is making is on decidedly shaky ground.

Well, if you count a pile of miscast garbage (most of it from ebay scammers) that maybe someday I'll turn into wrecked tank terrain then yeah, I own recasts. And no, it doesn't undermine my argument because I'm not claiming that I buy recasts as some kind of protest against GW's prices. And that's really the core of my argument. I wouldn't judge people nearly as much if they openly admitted that they buy recasts because they're selfish and don't care about anything besides getting what they want as cheaply as possible. The people that really annoy me are the ones who claim some bizarre moral high ground where buying recasts is justified because GW's prices are immoral.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Assuming they don't work weekends, it took almost three days to dispatch and then it was sent 2nd class. Not exactly a premium service, and worse than many small EBay sellers and etailers I've used - and I've paid somewhere in the region of 3x the cost of the postage for it.

I've always been wary of FW shipping ever since I ordered a pair of Macharius' with the more expensive "express shipping" option. It took about 2 days for them to arrive from the UK to Oz, which is super fast. Of course, it took 'em over a month to actually dispatch the damned things.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Peregrine has mentioned in other threads he owns recasts, so any morality based argument he is making is on decidedly shaky ground.

Well, if you count a pile of miscast garbage (most of it from ebay scammers) that maybe someday I'll turn into wrecked tank terrain then yeah, I own recasts. And no, it doesn't undermine my argument because I'm not claiming that I buy recasts as some kind of protest against GW's prices. And that's really the core of my argument. I wouldn't judge people nearly as much if they openly admitted that they buy recasts because they're selfish and don't care about anything besides getting what they want as cheaply as possible. The people that really annoy me are the ones who claim some bizarre moral high ground where buying recasts is justified because GW's prices are immoral.

Personally, I think the fact you're judging them at all for something that has no impact on you whatsoever is a fairly poor direction to be coming from in the first place, but meh.

Miscast garbage or not, if you haven't destroyed it, or sent it back to FW/GW as evidence, and reported every single seller who's supplied it to you to the proper authorities and made sure they were shut down, then it's irrelevant what you do with it, you're as guilty as anyone who bought stuff with prior knowledge once you're aware of what you have.

(I'm quite liking this facile, binary arguing thing, I might try it for a while.)

For the most part Im pretty much OK with most of the prices. What bothers me is that the shipping is expensive and less than stellar. What pisses me off is that Im charged the prices including VAT. Complete BS on their part.

 Korinov wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 primalexile wrote:
Just recently I found a different "source" I now have 3 armies comprised of all FW and it cost less than one of their armies. I would rather my money go to FW but they are insane to charge what they do.

And of course, what price whine thread would be complete without people proudly declaring how they're entitled to buy illegal recasts if GW doesn't give them what they want.

Probably not a discussion for this thread, but that's usually what people tends to do: when someone does not give you what you want, you look for it elsewhere.

We've already had someone in this thread say that 'if FW was cheaper, I'd totes by from them instead of recasters. Honest.' Now, maybe it's just that they're lying to themselves, and not us specifically, but recasts are always going to be cheaper than FW, and thus that person is always going to be recasts and never FW.

I think you should drop and give me 50 for posting silly threads...

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok so it's not ilegal, please stop calling people criminals then, and supporting ilegal activities is a massive grey area, you know that thing the whole world is, shades of grey, if your saying that by buying an item that supports ilegal activities makes us guilty of supporting crime, take all your sweatshop clothes back, stop eating McDonald's, stop shopping at walmart, hell just stop everything and go to prison on that white steed and live in that myopic black and white world of yours.

I hate to be insulting, but calling people guilty by association is plain wrong.

Allow me to (hopefully) shed some light on matters.

Peregrine is generally only capable of arguing in black or white, trying to discuss any nuanced subject with shades of any colour is largely pointless.

Peregrine has mentioned in other threads he owns recasts, so any morality based argument he is making is on decidedly shaky ground.

Peregrine likes a fight - he's managed to argue with me in threads where I was agreeing with him.

Ah I see, thanks

If you cant afford it dont buy it. Or buy elsewhere or here's an idea, save up. Problem solved

Motograter wrote:
If you cant afford it dont buy it. Or buy elsewhere or here's an idea, save up. Problem solved

I don't think this is about whether people can afford it, it's about whether or not the models are worth the asking price.

Da Butcha wrote:People are 'entitled' to do what they please with their own money. What does this mean in the discussion?

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying that I agree with Peregrine on this, but I don't know what stance you are taking.

If a person is 'entitled' to do what they please with their own money, then presumably, they are entitled to purchase illegal recasts, or pay a criminal to steal product from GW, or pay someone to assassinate bean-counters at GW until the terrified clerks decide to lower prices to appease a bloodthirsty mob. I don't think that you are arguing that people are actually entitled to do ANYTHING they please with their own money, but maybe you are.

If the point you are making is that they are entitled to do whatever they want with their own money, but they should expect to suffer any legal consequences of doing so, then that seems to be a trivial point to be making.

Of course. You're entitled to do what you want with your money. If by doing so you violate the law, you may expect to suffer consequent repercusions.

I don't want to put words in Peregrine's mouth, but I think his label of 'entitled' is being applied because the poster is not only saying that he intends to pay money for illegally recast merchandise, but also is confident that he will suffer no repercussions from doing so, and does not feel any moral qualms about violating either IP law or the general concept of counterfeiting, nor does he feel any social shame about boasting about doing so. Presumably, many such buyers would be outraged if they personally were supplied with counterfeit goods under false pretenses, but feel entitled to make such purchases themselves.

I don't want to get into a big discussion on the validity of IP law or the specifics of those laws in various countries. I do, however, think that 'entitled' is not a particularly bad word to describe someone who actually states an intention to violate the law simply because he cannot acquire a luxury product he wants under the law.

I mean, I'm not portraying myself as some crusading do-gooder, but when I could not afford Forgeworld products I wanted, I saved up the money, bought them second hand (and NOT from some mysteriously discounted Chinese/Russian source), or I didn't buy them. If I were planning on giving money to someone who was illlegally recasting FW models and selling them illegally, I certainly wouldn't be hinting at it obviously on the internet. I might feel shame or concern for violating the law.

I think that doing otherwise is the mark of someone who feels entitled to the models, whether they have any legal right to a box of them or not. We're not talking about being unable to afford food, or medicine here. It's not some basic human right that isn't being met. Someone can't buy the toys they want with the money they have.

It's up to each one's conscience.

Besides, I fail to see where the entitlement is. I don't think that's the issue here. It's more like people wanting a certain product, and resorting to an alternative (even if not exactly legal) supplier because they deem the official price too high. Counterfeiting has happened left and right throughout the whole human history, and this is not even counterfeiting, because recasters are very open about stating they're merely selling replicas, and that if someone is concerned about their products' quality, they should actually go and buy the official thing.

The funny part here, is that more than once the recasts end up being of higher quality than the original stuff they're supposed to be replicating.

(I also understand a lot of the vitriol directed at GW in general, but every single bloke I have ever met from Forgeworld seems like a totally decent guy, and any penny I spend on recasts instead of originals feels like money that they didn't get in their paycheck. I can understand the whole Robin Hood mentality, but the guys at FW don't seem like rich barons to me.)

I'm sure Apple and GW are also full of decent chaps who just try to make a living and do not share the administration board's point of view or attitude. Still I consider both companies to be obnoxious.

Bookwrack wrote:We've already had someone in this thread say that 'if FW was cheaper, I'd totes by from them instead of recasters. Honest.' Now, maybe it's just that they're lying to themselves, and not us specifically, but recasts are always going to be cheaper than FW, and thus that person is always going to be recasts and never FW.

I don't agree with the "recasts are always going to be cheaper than FW" line of thought.

As any other business (legit or not), recasters operate within a certain profit margin. They will usually sell things at half the official price (sometimes 1/3, sometimes even cheaper). This currently gives them a lot of space to maneuver since both GW and FW's prices are extremely high.

If GW and FW were to drop their prices to 50% (we all know it's not going to happen, and nowadays it would simply ruin them), recasters would be forced to drop their prices in such a dramatic way their profit margins would probably not be enough anymore for most of what they recast, and it would be likely they would be forced to reduce their catalogue a lot. I guess they would be able to keep their best sellers (afaiac, death korps of krieg, contemptors and a few more 30k things) and little else.

As an example, FW currently sells their contemptors' bodies (without arms) for around 45€. Meanwhile recasters charge around 20€. If FW dropped their prices by half... well I would be the first one to say "great product at pretty good price" (I wouldn't buy since I'm not interested in contemptors, either legal or recast). And it's unlikely recasters could cope with it, since 1) they would be forced to drop their prices below the 15€ tag in order to stay competitive so 2) their profit margins would be significantly reduced and 3) many more people would feel like buying the official product regardless of what recasters may offer.

In my experience, 99% of the people, even if they despise the company, will buy a product if they believe it's priced correctly. People turn to recasts because, let's be honest about this, 45€ for a contemptor body, plus 12€ more for each arm (making a total of almost 70€ for a contemptor mini) is ridiculous. You don't even have to go the recast route, alternative suppliers (a.k.a. Puppets War) offer two dreadnought-compatible arms for 14€, and even a complete dreadnought-sized battlewalker for 29€ (including both arms).

And before anyone starts making assumptions, I will state it outright: Forgeworld, Games Workshop and any other company in the world are entitled to charge as much as they want for their products. Prospective buyers are also entitled to consider such prices ridiculously overpriced, and seek alternatives wherever they may find them.

People are entitled to think the prices are ridiculous and look for alternatives, that entitlement doesn't stretch to being entitled to buy illegally recasted models. Buying them may be legal but you're still supporting illegal activity.

I'm curious, is it entitled and immoral for me to walk into my local $2 shop and buy a 'totally not Power Ranger' or a pink Pikachu?

 jonolikespie wrote:
I'm curious, is it entitled and immoral for me to walk into my local $2 shop and buy a 'totally not Power Ranger' or a pink Pikachu?

It's a bit different isn't it, because they haven't directly cast them to make a model which is literally exactly the same.

People we have already established that buying recasts isn't illegal, if you find it morally reprehensible, fine, but keep that unwanted and unneeded opinion to yourselves, this discussion has already been derailed (by me also) enough.

On topic.
Ok here's what I think on the fw price subject, is it worth the cost, answer is most of the time yes, some things (such as the contemptor) are quite massively over priced, others are either a steal or very reasonable,

Buying recasts may not be illegal but making them sure as hell IS and you are supporting scabs in the industry.

FW does seem a bit overpriced to me, they are very good sculpts but I don't imagine they cost anywhere near that much to make, they may sell in smaller quantities than other GW stuff but I imagine they still sell enough that the cost of the initial sculpt would be quite heavily diluted.

 Crazie German wrote:
Buying recasts may not be illegal but making them sure as hell IS and you are supporting scabs in the industry.

If you want to know what you're supporting when you buy from GW, have a read at weeble's upgoming review of the GW vs. Chapterhouse litigation.

Also, somebody please explain why buying recasts is inmoral and denotes some sort of "arrogant entitlement", but outsourcing production to countries like China in an effort to cut costs is perfectly understandable and acceptable. Perhaps if GW was unable to meet ends by keeping their production in Europe they shouldn't have felt "entitled" to outsource production to developing countries where workers rights and salaries are a joke, and just reduce business volume or either shut down.

 Crazie German wrote:
Buying recasts may not be illegal but making them sure as hell IS and you are supporting scabs in the industry.

"Scabs" that only have space to operate because of the original's flabby pricing.

Piracy, in whatever form, tends to only occur where there's enough headroom for the Pirates to operate and make money, the easiest way for a company to eliminate rip offs is to price their own product as keenly as possible. There would be certain examples, premium watches perhaps, where a price cut would actually be more harmful than whatever damage is done by fakes (if you can afford a real Rolex, you're not going to buy a fake, in all likelihood) and would actually damage the brand (unlike the delusion GW has that price cuts and sales would damage their brand - the value of the GW brand right now is questionable)

As I've said before, if the recast business is causing GW any pain (and it predates their current financial downturn, so the simple availability of recasts cannot be attributed to that) then it lies within their hands to attack it and significantly reduce, if not eliminate, it. Not, as is their usual bully-boy technique of sending in the lawyers, which is a futile exercise, but by focussing on making a desirable product at an attractive price, something they've been consistently struggling to do for several years now.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I'm curious, is it entitled and immoral for me to walk into my local $2 shop and buy a 'totally not Power Ranger' or a pink Pikachu?

It's a bit different isn't it, because they haven't directly cast them to make a model which is literally exactly the same.

Quite a few of them seem to be exactly that. A lot are marketed using actual trademarked names. This is an IP issue rather than it being illegal to physically recast. The models being made are infringing GWs copywrites* (many of which they don't own btw), but marketing a pink Pikachu as a 'Pokemon' is, as I understand it, a lot worse than copying the physical design elements of a model because half of trademark/copyright law is actually about protecting the consumer from buying something labeled as, for example, 'Pokemon' without it being official 'Pokemon' merchandise.

If recasters are open about them being recasts then that puts them on the lower level of 'illegal' and into the moraly grey area rather than 'immoral scabs'.

*Pretty sure it's copyright, might be trademark. Unfortunatly I only know the difference a little better than GW's head of IP

 Korinov wrote:

 Crazie German wrote:
Buying recasts may not be illegal but making them sure as hell IS and you are supporting scabs in the industry.

If you want to know what you're supporting when you buy from GW, have a read at weeble's upgoming review of the GW vs. Chapterhouse litigation.

Also, somebody please explain why buying recasts is inmoral and denotes some sort of "arrogant entitlement", but outsourcing production to countries like China in an effort to cut costs is perfectly understandable and acceptable. Perhaps if GW was unable to meet ends by keeping their production in Europe they shouldn't have felt "entitled" to outsource production to developing countries where workers rights and salaries are a joke, and just reduce business volume or either shut down.

GW manufacture all of their good in the UK.

You seem to be making facile points to keep a facile arguement going.

 notprop wrote:
GW manufacture all of their good in the UK.

You seem to be making facile points to keep a facile arguement going.

AFAIK, that is not true. White Dwarf is printed in China, or at least it was until yesterday.

In regards to miniatures, both GW and FW did outsource production to China in the past. In fact, when FW stopped doing that and went back to manufacture models only in the west, their overall quality went down significantly.

You seen to not have any idea of what you're talking about.

 Korinov wrote:

 notprop wrote:
GW manufacture all of their good in the UK.

You seem to be making facile points to keep a facile arguement going.

AFAIK, that is not true. White Dwarf is printed in China, or at least it was until yesterday.

In regards to miniatures, both GW and FW did outsource production to China in the past. In fact, when FW stopped doing that and went back to manufacture models only in the west, their overall quality went down significantly.

You seen to not have any idea of what you're talking about.

Models are produced in the UK, the hardcover books in China.

Side note, they use the UK not our of selfless desire to create jobs but because when they tried production in China recast apparently flooded the market.

 Formosa wrote:
if you find it morally reprehensible, fine, but keep that unwanted and unneeded opinion to yourselves

If there's one thing that I think is very much needed here, it's more people reminding you that it's morally reprehensible.

 Korinov wrote:

 notprop wrote:
GW manufacture all of their good in the UK.

You seem to be making facile points to keep a facile arguement going.

AFAIK, that is not true. White Dwarf is printed in China, or at least it was until yesterday.

In regards to miniatures, both GW and FW did outsource production to China in the past. In fact, when FW stopped doing that and went back to manufacture models only in the west, their overall quality went down significantly.

You seen to not have any idea of what you're talking about.

GW's printed material is printed in Cina, that's about standard for most companies due to the cost of printing.

FW did test out casting resin in China, I only have second-hand info about why they stopped but apparently is was due to low-quality, miscommunication and issues with management in China.

GW had a few sprues cast in China, mostly scenery like the Arcane Ruins set, but their actual miniatures were all produced in Lenton.

The only reason I know of personally about issues with China was with product being sent to Memphis from China being constantly damaged and having to be repacked in Memphis. Why do the same thing twice?

IIRC the pallets of the Arcane Ruins that were made in the GW China facility, apparently as a test, were crushed in shipping. Someone in China chose to change the type of cardboard the box sets were made from to a thinner card so the weight of the product on top crushed the boxes underneath. We had to order new boxes and repack everything in Memphis, which also meant shipping them out late to customers.

There were more quality issues about China, but it would take too long to go into detail about them all here.

Suffice to say, I don't think GW will ever let any manufacturing of miniatures out of their site ever again.

GW and it's affiliated products are just straight up overpriced and lackluster in quality and value.. nothing new.

 Vermis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
if you find it morally reprehensible, fine, but keep that unwanted and unneeded opinion to yourselves

If there's one thing that I think is very much needed here, it's more people reminding you that it's morally reprehensible.

A bit naughty maybe, but reprehensible? If this is your idea of morally reprehensible, read the news more.

GW have lost a lot of goodwill in recent years and their model quality has dropped right off all while prices being screwed up. That's why there's less loyalty and more people feeling neutral about recasts being bought and used. If you give your money to GW you get a product full of air bubbles and they use the money to fund their legal bullying. What exactly does GW do to win over customers?

mechanicalhorizon wrote:GW's printed material is printed in Cina, that's about standard for most companies due to the cost of printing.

So we're accepting it's ok for companies to outsource printing process to developing countries where labor rights and salaries are a joke due to "cost" issues. Not morally reprehensible nor anything like that.

FW did test out casting resin in China, I only have second-hand info about why they stopped but apparently is was due to low-quality, miscommunication and issues with management in China.

According to things I've read, I'd say it was more than a simple test.

I don't know to what degree low-quality could have been an issue, since nowadays some recasters offer models of higher quality than the official FW products.

GW had a few sprues cast in China, mostly scenery like the Arcane Ruins set, but their actual miniatures were all produced in Lenton.

I've been told some of their bigger plastic kits - like the Stompa - have been cast in China as well, but I'm uncertain about the validity of such claims.

Didn't know about the Arcane Ruins set and all the issues GW had with it. Thanks for sharing the info.

Vermis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
if you find it morally reprehensible, fine, but keep that unwanted and unneeded opinion to yourselves

If there's one thing that I think is very much needed here, it's more people reminding you that it's morally reprehensible.

To be honest, I don't see how buying recasts is more morally reprehensible than giving money to a company that is more than happy to employ legal bullying as a means to drive competition out of the market. Specially when said legal bullying has been built upon piles of lies.

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW have lost a lot of goodwill in recent years and their model quality has dropped right off all while prices being screwed up. That's why there's less loyalty and more people feeling neutral about recasts being bought and used. If you give your money to GW you get a product full of air bubbles and they use the money to fund their legal bullying. What exactly does GW do to win over customers?

This.

 Formosa wrote:
Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

Formosa - KNOWING buying an unauthorised recast is indeed illegal in the UK, now if you can prove that you did not know it was a recast then legally the police would just take the item and destroy it (and no - you don't get a refund from the police and are unlike to get a refund from the people who broke the law to make it for you)

You could of cause argue that you bought it not know it was a recast - but considering FW are very clear that you can only buy direct from them this might be a difficult sell.

Of cause as with many things whilst it is illegal it is highly unlike you'll get caught, so people go ahead and do it anyway, but don't think going out and buying knockoff gear knowing that it is knockoff isn't illegal in the UK because it is.

* EDIT * The reason why it is illegal to knowing buy recasts is because it is illegal to (knowingly) support criminal activity (in the UK). So while the buying of the recasts itself isn't illegal, it is illegal to give the criminal your cash for them - I should have probably pointed this out.

I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
What exactly does GW do to win over customers?

They sell space marines. Which is enough for a lot of people.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

 Melcavuk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

Well that sang priest never sells btw. No one wants a 30 USD resin character. Fine cast in general doesn't sell at the rate plastic stuff does. 50% of the issue is quality (the quality is bad on fine cast) and 50% is price.

I think a better comparison would be - a forge world sicarian vs a GW land raider. It's obvious that the sicaran borrows some of the characteristics from the raider itself. A sicarian is a land raider - cut in half that costs about 80% more.

Again I wouldnt quite say cut in in half, the Sicarian is significantly larger than a Predator for example, and yes costs £76 but is a highly detailed resin kit that in person looks significantly better than said Landraider (and has a nice amount of weight to it from the resin too)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

Well that sang priest never sells btw. No one wants a 30 USD resin character. Fine cast in general doesn't sell at the rate plastic stuff does. 50% of the issue is quality (the quality is bad on fine cast) and 50% is price.

I think a better comparison would be - a forge world sicarian vs a GW land raider. It's obvious that the sicaran borrows some of the characteristics from the raider itself. A sicarian is a land raider - cut in half that costs about 80% more.

The Sanguinary Priest is plastic. As is the Terminator Librarian.

And the Sicaran, as shown, is pretty big, it's definitely bigger than half a Land Raider. It's probably comparable in size.

 Korinov wrote:

 notprop wrote:
GW manufacture all of their good in the UK.

You seem to be making facile points to keep a facile arguement going.

AFAIK, that is not true. White Dwarf is printed in China, or at least it was until yesterday.

In regards to miniatures, both GW and FW did outsource production to China in the past. In fact, when FW stopped doing that and went back to manufacture models only in the west, their overall quality went down significantly.

You seen to not have any idea of what you're talking about.

ALl the end times books are also printed in China. Company is called C&C. I'm assuming that stands for Chinese and Cheap ... sorry... couldn't help myself.


Can't confirm the models are or not though ; unfortunately i just threw out all my box covers (used them for painting aids which i summarily realized i really didn't need, and thus had a pound of cardboard in a cardboard box, and immediately felt like a hoarder... so *toss*).

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

Well that sang priest never sells btw. No one wants a 30 USD resin character. Fine cast in general doesn't sell at the rate plastic stuff does. 50% of the issue is quality (the quality is bad on fine cast) and 50% is price.

I think a better comparison would be - a forge world sicarian vs a GW land raider. It's obvious that the sicaran borrows some of the characteristics from the raider itself. A sicarian is a land raider - cut in half that costs about 80% more.

The Sanguinary Priest is plastic. As is the Terminator Librarian.

And the Sicaran, as shown, is pretty big, it's definitely bigger than half a Land Raider. It's probably comparable in size.

Sorry you are correct that is a plastic priest model for 30 USD....makes no difference no one is buying an unposeable 30$ model.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ILiqJ-QbFAA/UtG5xsmrB4I/AAAAAAAAEro/6iHuZEd4XG4/s1600/Sicarian+Size+Comparison+2.JPG
maybe cut in half was an exaggeration - the point is the LR is bigger. It also has more peices. In a reasonable world the Sicarian would cost less than it.

In a reasonable world the Sicaran would cost less than a LR if they were the same material yeah. Quality issues aside, resin models are more expensive than plastic or even metal, generally. It's not like that's something unique to FW.

And whether or not people are buying the £18 plastic models, that's the price GW is pricing their models now. The SM captain and Librarian that came out with C:SM were £18. The new Necron overlord is £17. Skaven characters (basically man sized on 20mm square bases) are £13.50. The price disparity there used to be between GW and FW just isn't there anymore. FW can charge what they want, basically, because they're essentially a boutique resin model maker, a proper luxury item company. They don't expect to sell much at all, so they can pretty much charge what they want. GW likes to think it's the same, but it's really not, and they are vastly overpriced. In some countries it's cheaper or the same price to buy FW models as it is to buy GW models. And FW models are roughly the same price they've alwasy been, they only adjust prices with inflation, where as GW models have increased dramatically in price, completely independently to the rate of inflation.

Yes, FW are expensive, but not disproportionately so in the industry for resin, boutique models. GW models are disproportionately expensive in the industry.

Stranger83 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

Formosa - KNOWING buying an unauthorised recast is indeed illegal in the UK, now if you can prove that you did not know it was a recast then legally the police would just take the item and destroy it (and no - you don't get a refund from the police and are unlike to get a refund from the people who broke the law to make it for you)

You could of cause argue that you bought it not know it was a recast - but considering FW are very clear that you can only buy direct from them this might be a difficult sell.

Of cause as with many things whilst it is illegal it is highly unlike you'll get caught, so people go ahead and do it anyway, but don't think going out and buying knockoff gear knowing that it is knockoff isn't illegal in the UK because it is.

* EDIT * The reason why it is illegal to knowing buy recasts is because it is illegal to (knowingly) support criminal activity (in the UK). So while the buying of the recasts itself isn't illegal, it is illegal to give the criminal your cash for them - I should have probably pointed this out.

All sorts of wrong right here.

Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Secondly, the burden of proof would be on the police - it's that whole pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing - to prove you knew you were buying recasts, not on you to prove you didn't. It is essentially impossible to prove what someone did or didn't know at any given time, just look at Alan Merrett's testimony in the CHS case for some pretty outrageous claims that simply had no basis for contradiction, even if it is mentioned in a products description it is recast, you simply have to claim you didn't read the description fully and then it must be proven you did.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Would it come under importing counterfeits? From the gov.uk website...

"The importation of restricted goods without the correct documentation and the importation of prohibited or counterfeit goods will be dealt with as a criminal offence."

I personally don't feel Forge World products are necessarily too expensive although I will agree their shipping costs are way too high.

If I remember correctly they used to offer free shipping for orders over £100 and I think that's reasonable, but 12% of all orders up to £250 seems a bit steep.

But in terms of product prices, especially books, I don't mind their prices.

I see FW items as a treat or special project and i know I will spend a lot of time building them and painting them and feel they are value for money in this respect.

And as has been pointed out in some respects their prices are in line or better value for money than GW products.

However I can't help but feel that GW have seen the success of FW and what people are prepared to pay and ramped up their prices accordingly.

£18 for a plastic monopose clampack figure is shocking, when compared to a highly detailed resin mini from FW.

I don't have an issue with the prices on the pieces I want.

What is a donkey punch in the dick is the VAT and Shipping. Sure, over 250 is free shipping, but its damn rare that i buy that much in one go. I also absolutely hate seeing money i budget to go towards minis, not actually go towards the minis. That drives me bananas.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

Formosa - KNOWING buying an unauthorised recast is indeed illegal in the UK, now if you can prove that you did not know it was a recast then legally the police would just take the item and destroy it (and no - you don't get a refund from the police and are unlike to get a refund from the people who broke the law to make it for you)

You could of cause argue that you bought it not know it was a recast - but considering FW are very clear that you can only buy direct from them this might be a difficult sell.

Of cause as with many things whilst it is illegal it is highly unlike you'll get caught, so people go ahead and do it anyway, but don't think going out and buying knockoff gear knowing that it is knockoff isn't illegal in the UK because it is.

* EDIT * The reason why it is illegal to knowing buy recasts is because it is illegal to (knowingly) support criminal activity (in the UK). So while the buying of the recasts itself isn't illegal, it is illegal to give the criminal your cash for them - I should have probably pointed this out.

All sorts of wrong right here.

Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Secondly, the burden of proof would be on the police - it's that whole pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing - to prove you knew you were buying recasts, not on you to prove you didn't. It is essentially impossible to prove what someone did or didn't know at any given time, just look at Alan Merrett's testimony in the CHS case for some pretty outrageous claims that simply had no basis for contradiction, even if it is mentioned in a products description it is recast, you simply have to claim you didn't read the description fully and then it must be proven you did.

No he is correct that knowingly aiding criminal activity is illegal, however recasting is ip law and not an indictable offence, obita dicta, ratio decidendi for this can be found very easily, so the worst thing that happens is a fine, the criminal element comes into it when by supporting illegal activities you knowingly support drugs etc. Hence ip warning say "you WILL be fined and MAY get a prison term" , my favourite example of a similar thing is "trespassers will be prosecuted" nope they won't, they may be fined but that it as its not indictable.

I used to want to see what the new produces were : however which has largely eliminated the clear way of the particular dodo, each release is similar to the past discharge.

StraightSilver wrote:I personally don't feel Forge World products are necessarily too expensive although I will agree their shipping costs are way too high.

If I remember correctly they used to offer free shipping for orders over £100 and I think that's reasonable, but 12% of all orders up to £250 seems a bit steep.

But in terms of product prices, especially books, I don't mind their prices.

I see FW items as a treat or special project and i know I will spend a lot of time building them and painting them and feel they are value for money in this respect.

And as has been pointed out in some respects their prices are in line or better value for money than GW products.

However I can't help but feel that GW have seen the success of FW and what people are prepared to pay and ramped up their prices accordingly.

£18 for a plastic monopose clampack figure is shocking, when compared to a highly detailed resin mini from FW.

Haight wrote:I don't have an issue with the prices on the pieces I want.

What is a donkey punch in the dick is the VAT and Shipping. Sure, over 250 is free shipping, but its damn rare that i buy that much in one go. I also absolutely hate seeing money i budget to go towards minis, not actually go towards the minis. That drives me bananas.

Now these I agree with, the shipping does annoy me. 12% is silly money for delivery and £250 for free delivery is a silly limit.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Would it come under importing counterfeits? From the gov.uk website...

"The importation of restricted goods without the correct documentation and the importation of prohibited or counterfeit goods will be dealt with as a criminal offence."

The caveat to that is under a certain value they don't care, also the goods are not counterfeit as they are not trying to claim they are real, it's a grey area that China uses a lot, and to be frank they can try to treat it as a criminal offence all they like, they still need to follow level precedent and that does not support them.

 Formosa wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Would it come under importing counterfeits? From the gov.uk website...

"The importation of restricted goods without the correct documentation and the importation of prohibited or counterfeit goods will be dealt with as a criminal offence."

The caveat to that is under a certain value they don't care, also the goods are not counterfeit as they are not trying to claim they are real, it's a grey area that China uses a lot, and to be frank they can try to treat it as a criminal offence all they like, they still need to follow level precedent and that does not support them.

I wasn't trying to suggest you would actually get done for it, simply if the question is whether or not it's illegal to buy recasts from China and have them shipped to the UK. Just because it's not enforced on smaller items doesn't make it legal.

As for whether recasts are counterfeits or not... I don't know what the legal definition of a counterfeit is, I thought doing an exact copy was sufficient to be considered a counterfeit even if you don't package it in a GW box. It'd be like burning DVD's but just writing the title on the DVD and case using a sharpie... obviously it's not trying to pass itself off as a genuine DVD from the publisher, but I'd still have thought it'd be considered counterfeit.

A counterfeit is sold as the real thing - the Chinese recasters, at least based on what I've seen, do the opposite.

So, for example, if I sell you a "Rolex" for £1500, then I'm guilty of counterfeiting, if I sell you the same thing for £30 as a reproduction, I'm merely selling a fake. I may well be impinging on IP by doing that, but I'm not guilty of counterfeiting, by my understanding.

 ImAGeek wrote:
In a reasonable world the Sicaran would cost less than a LR if they were the same material yeah. Quality issues aside, resin models are more expensive than plastic or even metal, generally. It's not like that's something unique to FW.

And whether or not people are buying the £18 plastic models, that's the price GW is pricing their models now. The SM captain and Librarian that came out with C:SM were £18. The new Necron overlord is £17. Skaven characters (basically man sized on 20mm square bases) are £13.50. The price disparity there used to be between GW and FW just isn't there anymore. FW can charge what they want, basically, because they're essentially a boutique resin model maker, a proper luxury item company. They don't expect to sell much at all, so they can pretty much charge what they want. GW likes to think it's the same, but it's really not, and they are vastly overpriced. In some countries it's cheaper or the same price to buy FW models as it is to buy GW models. And FW models are roughly the same price they've alwasy been, they only adjust prices with inflation, where as GW models have increased dramatically in price, completely independently to the rate of inflation.

Yes, FW are expensive, but not disproportionately so in the industry for resin, boutique models. GW models are disproportionately expensive in the industry.

The fact that those boutique models are, in some cases, less expensive than the standard models is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

I am not offended by the cost of the resin 1/2 a Land Raider* being higher - resin is expensive, plastic is cheap.

And GW has produced a lot of those cheap plastic Land Raiders** - so the economy of scale also plays a part.

I have a much easier time swallowing the FW prices for their boutique resin models than do swallowing the standard GW prices for cheap mass produced plastic models.

The Auld Grump

* Driven by Eric the 1/2 a Bee....

** Cheap here is purely in regards to the cost of manufacture - the current Land Raider is, in my opinion, one of the best looking models that GW produces.

 Azreal13 wrote:
A counterfeit is sold as the real thing - the Chinese recasters, at least based on what I've seen, do the opposite.

So, for example, if I sell you a "Rolex" for £1500, then I'm guilty of counterfeiting, if I sell you the same thing for £30 as a reproduction, I'm merely selling a fake. I may well be impinging on IP by doing that, but I'm not guilty of counterfeiting, by my understanding.

Hmmm... I'm not convinced. Googling around it does seem the primary connotation of counterfeit is to deceive by violating a trademark, though it seems to me attempting to violate copyright would also constitute a counterfeit. I'd want to hear it from the mouth of someone who is familiar with the law. Reading through it on legal dictionary talks first about reproduction of packaging, but then goes on to describe what I'd consider copyright infringement similar to recasting.

Their prices would be a whole lot more acceptable if they upped their quality control, because gak.. People bitched about FineCast, but Forge World has its share of gakky casts that they sent out anyway.

Fw are expensive and come with a stigma of pay to win but really they are a better company than gw. And i wish they had high street shops because their costermer sevecice is lovely and in my opioin the best models and rules.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A counterfeit is sold as the real thing - the Chinese recasters, at least based on what I've seen, do the opposite.

So, for example, if I sell you a "Rolex" for £1500, then I'm guilty of counterfeiting, if I sell you the same thing for £30 as a reproduction, I'm merely selling a fake. I may well be impinging on IP by doing that, but I'm not guilty of counterfeiting, by my understanding.

Hmmm... I'm not convinced. Googling around it does seem the primary connotation of counterfeit is to deceive by violating a trademark, though it seems to me attempting to violate copyright would also constitute a counterfeit. I'd want to hear it from the mouth of someone who is familiar with the law. Reading through it on legal dictionary talks first about reproduction of packaging, but then goes on to describe what I'd consider copyright infringement similar to recasting.

made in exact imitation of something valuable with the intention to deceive or defraud.
"counterfeit £10 notes"

It's the intent to deceive that is critical I think, and most recasters don't do that IME.

Forge World should drop prices,
GW should drop prices,
Forge World should hire proof readers,
GW should hire competent rules writers,
Forge World should coordinate better with code writers,
GW should rethink their whole business model,

The list goes on and on....

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Fw are expensive and come with a stigma of pay to win but really they are a better company than gw. And i wish they had high street shops because their costermer sevecice is lovely and in my opioin the best models and rules.

FW basically is pay to win right now. So many things out of their books are hands down better than anything else in it's class. IE storm eagles and sicarian battle tanks.

Not really, fixing on a few strong units that Fw make and ignoring all the other solid/decent/mediocre stuff is akin to saying GW is PTW because of Wave Serpents or Riptides.

Neither of your examples are especially broken either, just better than average.

Shouldn't this tread need a poll? to see if people actually think it is too expensive?

Personally i find it at just right. Besides the shipping costs. also apparently they goof some times and charge vats to us murcans.

Forgeworld's shipping is over priced mostly. They charge way to much to ship their stuff. %15 of your order coast for shipping?!?!?! Realy?!?!?!?

I don't get how they can charge so much for shipping and it dosen't include a bloody tracking number. Even worse in the fact that then on top of that you have a pile of shipping dues to pay since they use UPS instead of standard mail.

Feels like I could get my package sent cheaper and with a tracking number just as quick if they would give a option for standard mail.

 Korinov wrote:
According to things I've read, I'd say it was more than a simple test.

I don't know to what degree low-quality could have been an issue, since nowadays some recasters offer models of higher quality than the official FW products.

I'll take personally knowing many of the manufacturing staff and managers involved over an internet forum any day. Also, testing doesn't mean you just test one mold and a few dozen sprues or parts, you have to test the entire process from beginning to end over a period of time to ensure it functions properly. So it makes sense to just start producing a small number of products for retail as the test.

I can't be certain of the reasons for GW not continuing to use China, but what I've been able to figure from conversations over the years is that there are just too many issues with China ranging from poor communication to lack of quality control and also a lack of understanding about the level of quality expected by GW. China is all about "cheap and fast", not quality.

 Korinov wrote:
I've been told some of their bigger plastic kits - like the Stompa - have been cast in China as well, but I'm uncertain about the validity of such claims.

Didn't know about the Arcane Ruins set and all the issues GW had with it. Thanks for sharing the info.

I was never given a list of the products, since I left GW in 2007, but I was told some of the (at the time new) products were part of that. The Stompa could have been one. I do know they did have Stompa molds in Memphis, I would assume they produced them there for a time until production was shut down.


As far as recasting being "morally reprehensible" that would depend on the individuals morals. I don't have an issue with recasts if the product being recast is out of production and no longer available or if it's for personal use.

Selling a recast of something currently or easily available (in the case of OOP product) would be unethical in my mind, but not morally reprehensible.

 Desubot wrote:
Shouldn't this tread need a poll? to see if people actually think it is too expensive?

Personally i find it at just right. Besides the shipping costs. also apparently they goof some times and charge vats to us murcans.

Personally I find that it costs more for no reason at all. They are both English manufactures of models. They makes models for the same game. Both have shipped production out to china before. Nether quality is stand out better than the other (speaking objectively - they both have some very fine models) - they are just different styles. Now I understand that FW makes less product, that is not my issue as a consumer, if you can't meet your demand you need to up your production - not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this). They just released rules that allow you to take FW without consent of your opponent. All I was saying is from a business prospective they are costing themselves money. There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay...If you don't believe me you will just have to take my word on this.I don't think a poll would solve much in this case as, I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player. Most would never consider buying FW at those prices, yet on dakka you have a pretty big group adamantly defending the prices which can be close to double and sometimes over double.

And yet there have been examples of higher quality forgeworld models for the same price or cheaper than their GW counter parts. Higher quality rulebooks which whilst costing more are well worth the price and some incredibly stunning models in resin (more expensive than plastic I'm told). Forgeworld makes niche models, those that can be sold for X amount of time before moving on to the next cool idea. They do what they find cool, in small numbers, at boutique prices. They are in no way competing with core GW because FW has always been the boutique premium brand.

not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not really, fixing on a few strong units that Fw make and ignoring all the other solid/decent/mediocre stuff is akin to saying GW is PTW because of Wave Serpents or Riptides.

Neither of your examples are especially broken either, just better than average.

Is there a space marine tank you'd take over a sicarian for a tournament list?

That wasn't my point, have another go.

I think the best example here is your classic super market strategy. Most products are broken down into your 3 basic catagories

Basic
Own
Premium

Now if you're buying a loaf of bread, whichever you go with you're getting a load of bread. Juts different ingredients, different styles to suit different people.

Basic clip together models are GW basics
Standard GW is the own brand
Forgeworld is the Premium brand, different ingredients and a different take on a similar concept.

There is nothing wrong with liking basic or standard, or finding premium too expensive for your tastes. But in those cases you likely arent the target of the premium brand to start it.

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

 Melcavuk wrote:
I think the best example here is your classic super market strategy. Most products are broken down into your 3 basic catagories

Basic
Own
Premium

Now if you're buying a loaf of bread, whichever you go with you're getting a load of bread. Juts different ingredients, different styles to suit different people.

Basic clip together models are GW basics
Standard GW is the own brand
Forgeworld is the Premium brand, different ingredients and a different take on a similar concept.

There is nothing wrong with liking basic or standard, or finding premium too expensive for your tastes. But in those cases you likely arent the target of the premium brand to start it.

The only problem with that beakdown is that GW considers all of their products as 'Premium' and have so stated to their own shareholders.



That image makes me smile - every time I see it!

The Auld Grump

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

Really?

Is it too hard to put yes/no/indiffrent?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Shouldn't this tread need a poll? to see if people actually think it is too expensive?

Personally i find it at just right. Besides the shipping costs. also apparently they goof some times and charge vats to us murcans.

Personally I find that it costs more for no reason at all. They are both English manufactures of models. They makes models for the same game. Both have shipped production out to china before. Nether quality is stand out better than the other (speaking objectively - they both have some very fine models) - they are just different styles. Now I understand that FW makes less product, that is not my issue as a consumer, if you can't meet your demand you need to up your production - not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this). They just released rules that allow you to take FW without consent of your opponent. All I was saying is from a business prospective they are costing themselves money. There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay...If you don't believe me you will just have to take my word on this.I don't think a poll would solve much in this case as, I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player. Most would never consider buying FW at those prices, yet on dakka you have a pretty big group adamantly defending the prices which can be close to double and sometimes over double.

Gonna step in here.

Their costs are high because they sell niche products. Anything they'd make that would sell in sufficient quantities to be able to lower the price would simply be taken by the main GW studio and put into plastic, which has happened several times. Their costs are different and their initial sculpting is much more of a cottage industry type deal than the more CAD oriented stuff GW does. They have different costs, and they produce products largely for smaller markets.

Simply upping production without a clear corresponding increase in demand will do nothing but leave them with a bunch of stock that they've invested in for a relatively small increase in sales. If they reduce prices by 50%, they're not suddenly going to sell twice as many sets of Imperial Fists Rhino Doors for instance, firstly because there just aren't that many Imperial Fists players out there, and secondly because there's even less that would care about spending *any* extra amount of money on a product like that.. Even if they did, depending on their margin, they might still be making less money than they were, if their margin was say, 200% (not uncommon for niche-luxury products like they make), reducing prices by 50% means their margin has dropped to 50%, and they'd need to sell *4X* as much product as before to make the same profit, so doubling sales would still result in a net loss, and that's not even considering that they might not have the production capability to meet that demand.

Now, there's a case to be made that GW's core products have risen far too highly and could use a price decrease, as the exact same products have risen in price far higher than inflation would dictate and its clear their Real (inflation-adjusted) revenue is dropping over time, but FW's prices, while always high, only rise largley in line with inflation almost exactly, and they're doing just fine by all accounts.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

Really?

Is it too hard to put yes/no/indiffrent?

You want to post a poll, or shall I?

I would break it down as :
Are Prices for Forge World Products Too High?
1.) No.
2.) No, but the postage is absurd.
3.) A Bit High, but Worth It Compared to Standard GW.
4.) Too High.
5.) Way Too Freakin' High.

Personally, I would go with 2. or maybe 3..

The Auld Grump

I too am around 2-3

Usually 2 for me, I mean 12% doesnt seem bad at low numbers, but when you're looking at 15-25 postage on an order its dumb.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

Really?

Is it too hard to put yes/no/indiffrent?

You want to post a poll, or shall I?

I would break it down as :
Are Prices for Forge World Products Too High?
1.) No.
2.) No, but the postage is absurd.
3.) A Bit High, but Worth It Compared to Standard GW.
4.) Too High.
5.) Way Too Freakin' High.

Personally, I would go with 2. or maybe 3..

The Auld Grump

Just remove option 1 and 5 and it's a great poll.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just remove option 1 and 5 and it's a great poll.

Why would you say that?

Chicken/egg. This is a low-volume business and the costs are in the setup to make a kit, not the marginal cost of making the next box. If you want prices to go down there have to be more customers.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
I think the best example here is your classic super market strategy. Most products are broken down into your 3 basic catagories

Basic
Own
Premium

Now if you're buying a loaf of bread, whichever you go with you're getting a load of bread. Juts different ingredients, different styles to suit different people.

Basic clip together models are GW basics
Standard GW is the own brand
Forgeworld is the Premium brand, different ingredients and a different take on a similar concept.

There is nothing wrong with liking basic or standard, or finding premium too expensive for your tastes. But in those cases you likely arent the target of the premium brand to start it.

The only problem with that beakdown is that GW considers all of their products as 'Premium' and have so stated to their own shareholders.



That image makes me smile - every time I see it!

The Auld Grump

I don't consider ether product an upgrade over the other. Both have amazing models. You can't just claim something is of higher quality because it costs more. These are not purses. These are construct able models. As long as they have their represented detail and be build according to their specifications how can you say one model is of higher quality than the other? I also don't consider weight to be a measure of quality ether.

These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just remove option 1 and 5 and it's a great poll.

Why would you say that?

Is there any question that the shipping cost is absurd? and option 4-5 mean the same thing.

I don't consider ether product an upgrade over the other. Both have amazing models. You can't just claim something is of higher quality because it costs more. These are not purses. These are construct able models. As long as they have their represented detail and be build according to their specifications how can you say one model is of higher quality than the other? I also don't consider weight to be a measure of quality ether.

Quality of sculpt, detail retention of casting material, product matter.

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

On top of that I'm sure GW has moved into computer generating their molds. This would explain their recent surge of excellent models.

The price issue is a moving target too, one which seems to become more divergent with reality according to the kit size (to a point.)

£20 or so for a character/HQ model is generally quite acceptable. £30 or so for a squad of 5 models isn't too bad either.

The costs of the Titans, large monsters etc is also significant, but can be mitigated a little by the fact that they're low volume and probably time intensive to cast (although a lower price may mean higher volume and consequent economies, but meh)

Where they're really bonkers is some of the mid size stuff, the Dreadnoughts being the classic example and the really small stuff (like the shoulder pad sets and the Rhino doors, oh Lordy! the Rhino doors!)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

You are kidding right?

I always thought FW prices were fine, but I guess I've been comparing them to other resin model kit's I've bought from companies like G-System, Hobbyfan and E2046.

I'm aware that they are two different types of model kits that appeal to different customers but when I see the prices of FW model kits compared to these, FW (for most of it's kits) is pretty affordable and the quality of the castings is far better.

There is a wide range of costs for both FW and these other kit manufacturers,prices can range from $30 to $1000+, but on the whole my experience with FW is that they are better quality castings and you get more "use" out of them.

Is it that the models FW sells more expensive (dollar-wise) than their usefulness in the game systems?

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

You are kidding right?

Explain to me how the process is different?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

HIP kits production and resin casting are NOTHING alike. The costs involved, how the costs are linked to volume of production, the time taken and the materials used are all massively different. Once a die is cut for a plastic kit, the most significant cost, then your costs diminish for each kit you sell, and the production of the Sprue is a semi automated process. Resin casting requires an element of skill, a lot more time than a plastic kit, and the regular replacement of the moulds due to wear and tear, the ongoing production costs associated with resin casting are much higher.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

You are kidding right?

Explain to me how the process is different?

Besides the fact that one is a milled into a metal mold, the other is physicily hand casted using silicone. and that one injects molten plastic at pressure and is finished in less than a second and the other requires curing times depending on the resin mix that is actually being used?
Oh and the various degassing processes and stuff and how you need to physically cut channels and vents that is nearlly an art form in it self to get right.
Do you even know what you are talking about?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

HIP kits production and resin casting are NOTHING alike. The costs involved, how the costs are linked to volume of production, the time taken and the materials used are all massively different. Once a die is cut for a plastic kit, the most significant cost, then your costs diminish for each kit you sell, and the production of the Sprue is a semi automated process. Resin casting requires an element of skill, a lot more time than a plastic kit, and the regular replacement of the moulds due to wear and tear, the ongoing production costs associated with resin casting are much higher.

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

 Xenomancers wrote:

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

Yeah you definitely dont know what you are talking about

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

Not at all.

FW molds using the type of resin they do are much different than injection molding.

The plastic FW uses is a lot different and the molds are capable of different things. They can do undercuts for example (e.g. they don't require a separate piece for a gas mask hose the way a GW plastic kit would). Their molds also wear out quicker and need to be replaced more often and are more prone to miscasts. Hand sculpted designs are very easily translated to this medium.

A GW injection molded plastic kit is a *much* different beast. The machine that runs that is a six figure investment, and each mold is typically a five digit investment, something like a Baneblade is possibly a six figure investment for the molds. These are big steel cube looking things hauled by overhead crane from storage, to the machine, and back. Their expense up front is huge, but are good for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of casts, and can do so with a much lower level of mis-casts and errors. They can't do detail quite as intricate however (as such you often need more pieces than you would with resin, and some detail will often look stretched or whatnot like weird videogame clipping). These are well suited to CAD design.

The design and production methods are *very* different.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

Yeah you definitely dont know what you are talking about

Not in the slightest....

Comparing plastic HIP production and resin production is like comparing diesel and petrol engines, sure, there's a certain amount in common, and the end result is comparable, but the processes involved are very different.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

HIP kits production and resin casting are NOTHING alike. The costs involved, how the costs are linked to volume of production, the time taken and the materials used are all massively different. Once a die is cut for a plastic kit, the most significant cost, then your costs diminish for each kit you sell, and the production of the Sprue is a semi automated process. Resin casting requires an element of skill, a lot more time than a plastic kit, and the regular replacement of the moulds due to wear and tear, the ongoing production costs associated with resin casting are much higher.

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

There was a sound like unto a thousand palms hitting a thousand faces....

Okay....

HIP (High Impact Plastics) are made in milled metal molds - very expensive to make.

The material used to make the toys in those metal molds is very small plastic beads - melted and forced into the mold under very high pressure (therefor High Impact).

The material is very inexpensive - so each model that you make with a given mold drops the price of each successive model as the cost of the mold is spread out over many thousands of presses.

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

As far as GW and FW are concerned, the big difference is the economy of scale - resin works better for smaller amounts while plastic is less expensive when manufacturing larger amounts.

GW uses plastic - less expensive in large numbers. Hell, they use HIP plastics even when the economy of scale does not favor the use of that material.

FW uses resinous plastics - less expensive in small numbers, but suitable for a boutique company.

Finecast resin, on the other hand, was an abomination in the eyes of god - a low impact, high speed process that would have been okay under some circumstances, but not for models intended for a gaming table.

With GW switching to the less expensive material at the same time that they had yet another price hike.

*EDIT* Another choice is PVC - a low impact molten plastic forced into metal molds - but the material to make the mold, and the necessary precision, is a lot less expensive.

So Reaper uses PVC for their inexpensive Bones line of models.

PVC has its own set of advantages and disadvantages - but the important part is that the molds cost less than the ones used for HIP, but more than for resin, while the material used for making the models costs less than resin... and I think about the same as the beads used for HIP - but results in the model having a bit less detail.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

The major costs of HIPS and PVC are the mold. The major costs of resin is usually the 'man-power' to actually do the casting. And both materials have to pay an artists to actually make the dang thing.

Amazing how well someone can 'compete' in the marketplace when they don't have to pay an artist for the sculpt and don't have to pay a first-world salary and follow first-world employment laws to make the products. The cost of a product is often more than the sum of the parts.

nkelsch wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

The major costs of HIPS and PVC are the mold. The major costs of resin is usually the 'man-power' to actually do the casting. And both materials have to pay an artists to actually make the dang thing.

Amazing how well someone can 'compete' in the marketplace when they don't have to pay an artist for the sculpt and don't have to pay a first-world salary and follow first-world employment laws to make the products. The cost of a product is often more than the sum of the parts.

Which has nothing to do with the price of peanuts in Perth.

Aside from Bones, and a side argument on recasting, all products being discussed are being manufactured in first world countries.

We are comparing apples with apples here.

I do not use recasters - artists are worthy of their cut. I also do not buy GW - because while the artist should get their cut does not mean that I am willing to spend $25 for a piece of cheap plastic.

I go without - or I go to a third party manufacturer and buy something that is not a recast GW product.

I am willing to spend money and get a nice resin garbage truck* ork in mega-armor from Kromlech - but not willing to spend more to get a model from GW that does not look as nice.

The Auld Grump

* Believe it or not, that is a compliment. The model is not garbage - but the hydraulics and plating make me think of garbage trucks.

nkelsch wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

The major costs of HIPS and PVC are the mold. The major costs of resin is usually the 'man-power' to actually do the casting. And both materials have to pay an artists to actually make the dang thing.

Amazing how well someone can 'compete' in the marketplace when they don't have to pay an artist for the sculpt and don't have to pay a first-world salary and follow first-world employment laws to make the products. The cost of a product is often more than the sum of the parts.

Have to?

Have? To?

I'm sorry, but GW, assuming that's who you're alluding to, choose to base their production in the UK. This is, presumably because they feel the advantages this brings outweigh the disadvantages and it makes them more money, or the same amount of money but with other advantages, as basing their manufacturing elsewhere in the world.

If this isn't the case, then it's the wrong choice.

We also know, from their own figures that their cost of designing, producing and manufacturing their products is an average of around 27% (up from ~23% due to the financial floundering) so we know there's plenty of headroom in the finished product, it's the massive money sink that is their retail chain that causes the issues. That includes paying their (salaried) sculptors and designers, there's no one-off commission costs or royalties to be paid.

Oh, and if the cost of a product ever exceeds the cost of it's parts, you forgot to include some parts in your costings.