I can't say as to why they abandoned them. If they handled it well then a reboot would probably be very successful, personally I'd be interested in both.
Edit: that said I'm not sure I trust GW these days to actually handle it well...
They dropped them because they weren't making enough money. I think they could be released again and be successful... but maybe not successful enough for GW to actually do it.
If you consider "success" as being that the game costs less to maintain than it pulls in sales, I think they would be successful. But GW may want more than that out of them.
I'm still very pissed off Aeronautica Imperialis was dropped. It was not marketed at all and I didn't even know it existed until it had already been around for several years, then I started collecting a couple of squadrons (which aren't cheap at all mind you) and GW/FW pulled the rug from under me right when I was part way through Imperial Navy, Ork and Eldar squadrons.
They dropped the Specialist Games because their main lines (40K and WFB) were more profitable, and they assumed any money gamers spent on the Specialist stuff they would continue to spend on the main games, thus leading to higher profits, which are the most important thing if you happen to be a somewhat short-sighted shareholder looking forward to dividends.
And in a world where GW were the only providers of table-top fun, it would have worked.
In a nutshell small scale skirmish games no longer fit into GW's business model.
In other words games where you only need maybe up to a dozen figures to play just aren't what GW are about these days, they want to sell you as many models as they possibly can.
Other games such as Malifaux and Infinity have partly filled the void and prove that the games can work but they just don't sell anything like 40K and WHFB in terms of volume of sales and add on sales (paints, scenery etc).
However having said that if supported properly GW could make them work, I just don't think they want to....
If you look at the way they have pushed for bigger and bigger armies in their main two games, you'll see that skirmish games just don't fit their business model. Necromanda and similar were created in a time when fantasy and 40k were smaller games. Today specialist games are probably seen as being just too good value for money when you look at the hours of use and enjoyment you get from a relatively small number of models. They don't drive enough sales.
This logic does assume that people will just buy a lot more 40k if they can't necromunda, but I think it's false because different people buy different things and a lack of product diversity hurts them overall. GW have said that the hobby is people 'buying what we sell', and they seem to be under the impression that if they narrow GW products down to a couple of high cost games, they can somehow coerce all their customers into buying big games.
That's probably another reason for falling sales. You can't force a market to buy stuff your way, they'll go elsewhere which is clearly what's happening.
A big problem with these games was that they didn't use Fantasy/40k minis. If you started with Necromunda/Mordheim and wanted to go on to bigger things, you had to start from scratch. Now that might seem like a good thing for GW, but I think that it would have been a lot easier to ease people over to the bigger games if they could build on their existing collection, however small it was.
I think they dropped Nerco/Mordheim/all Specialist Games because they had LotR to deal with and that sucked in existing resources and delivered a huge glut of turnover and margin.
Specialist Games simply couldn't compete with that from a business perspective. Obviously there was an attempt to keep them going but without dedicated resource and the release of new product even life support was only going to stymie sales before they failed to generate enough sales to necessitate a new production cycle.
Further the move to resin meant that low sale lines that were suited to metal casting probably weren't viable.
All in all a right frigging mess.
I have hopes that the obvious failure of the Hobbit licence will see in-part a refocusing on these much neglected lines but we shall see.
Epic and Bloodbowl would be my guess at lines that get released first. Both were strong sellers in their time.
Well they did also drop Epic and BFG at the same time, and many people (myself included) have huge armies / fleets for those games. But the same logic applies, they thought the money not spent on those games would be spent on 40K, WFB and LotR instead, meaning a simpler overall range of products, cheaper manufacturing and stocking etc, and higher profits for all (board members).
Which in one way is great, because now we have Malifaux, Infinity, Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, and just too many other great games to list here, all flourishing all the more in the huge gap in the market left by bad decisions at GW towers.
It's a matter of sales, they don't want you to play the game where you a usable force costs £20-30. They want you to play the game where a usable force costs £200-300.
The mistake in this is assuming that Necromunda and Mordhiem players would simply surrender and start playing 40K and Fantasy instead and perhaps this was the cast about 10 years ago when they first phased them out and GW still had market dominance.
But in the last 5 years or so where non GW games have started breaching the mainstream of the gaming community this is no longer the case. My own club has transformed from one that was almost exclusively a GW club to one where games of Warhahordes, Saga, Infinity, X-Wing Miniatures, Star Trek Attack Wing, Bolt Action, DZC, Deadzone and Dreadball are played regularly and on any given night the non GW games being will usually equal the number of GW games.
I don’t know if GW are still sticking their head in the sand and telling themselves they are the only player in town, but if so they need to remove is sharpish.
I think Necromunda restart would be a wonderful intro game into 40k. But keep it cheap and here is now.. The new sprues they are making are packed (very little dead area) so you could easily get 5 figures on to one sprue. Write the game were Gangs, Retinues or War-bands targeted around 5- 10 miniatures in a skirmish game. Make the book a free PDF and instead of cardboard box use plastic bagging that can be placed on hangers, Less space in the store, less packaging cost and a way to get new people into the game. The whole drug phenomenon is "first one is free", keep it as cheap as possible. Then when they like the game.. They need to expanded their gang , buy paints and etc.. Then the smart thing would do is to write in genestealer cult rules.. chaos cult rules.. imperial guard ganger rules.. that would allow you to add the forces to your 40k armies.. Or allow 40k forces into the skirmish game ..Hence what a intro game should do..
My non gamer colleagues that visited my house are amazed at my miniatures.. Then i tell them that a single unpainted, unassembled ,one inch figure is $25 and they look at me like I am crazy... I am sure you will have a kid walk into games workshop store and see a cool dreadnought; Only to find out its $50 and you can use it in a game without buying a bunch other figures and you need the rule book and an army book. That nice dreadnought turns into $300; that is 5-6 brand new video games..
Quite simply video games in places you only need maybe up to number of numbers to play merely are not just what GW are usually regarding nowadays, they would like to promote an individual as numerous designs as they possibly can.
LuciusAR wrote: It's a matter of sales, they don't want you to play the game where you a usable force costs £20-30. They want you to play the game where a usable force costs £200-300.
I heard from someone fairly senior-ish that this, amongst some other reasons, was the case. A few others NotProp pointed out, in terms of the need to consolidate product range.
The interesting thing is that the SG would have disappeared completely, a hell of a lot earlier, had it not been for Jervis Johnson. Apparently he offered to take stewardship of the range entirely on his own back, and in addition to his basic responsibilities within the company. He was obviously only allowed to do this for so long, before the games went the way of Warhammer Historical.
I would be very, very surprised if the games ever came back in more than single-release, limited-run form (aka Space Hulk), unless there is a major personality and culture shift within the upper management.
Fortunately, the 'market has spoken', and we now have great 3rd party producers for miniatures of a lot of those games, as well as other games which have filled the void of game type that SG have left behind. Mantic's games being chief amongst these.
I can't say from a sales perspective what happened with those games, but I can give you some info about the manufacturing side.
Mordheim and Necromunda had way too many parts and took a long time to produce molds and castings for them.
After making the master molds and casting master tins, we would cast anywhere from 10-30 pieces of each part then we would have to clean the mold lines off all of those parts.
Each set of tins was comprised of one code, and we would have 10-13 pieces that we would have to clean the mold lines off of.
Take for example the Pit Fighter Warband. It had 14 components. Each component had between 10-30 tins that needed to be cleaned at an average of 1 hour per set (sometimes longer). Just cleaning the tins for one warband takes time away from all the other items that need to be made, both from SG and the main range.
Then you have to make (at least) one mold per component, we usually made 2-3 and we rarely used mixed molds at this time since mixed molds caused confusion and mispacks. So now you have 42 molds to be made just for that one warband.
One silicone mold takes 2 hours to vulcanize, one hour to post-cure then anywhere from 10-20 minutes to cut in. And we had 42 molds to make for just that one warband with a staff of 6 people (at the time).
Then you had the other 3-4 warbands that were released that same week to deal with, in addition to all the other new releases from the main ranges and also molds to replace worn out molds.
Necormunda was just as bad, so was Inquisitor. They just had too damn many parts.
There were times that Specialist Games was releasing twice the amount of new product as the main ranges (40K and WFB).
That's a hell of a lot of work to get done, so we were frequently behind schedule.
From what I was told, manufacturing all that product was starting to interfere with the manufacturing of the main ranges.
We did try to have a separate cell dedicated to SG product, but they inevitably would be making molds for whatever was needed and we also didn't want to double-up on equipment (that would just increase our costs as well). So everything was done just from one department.
Now the above example was my experience in Baltimore and Memphis, not Lenton. I know Lenton had a larger staff than we did, so maybe they had it easier.
I think MechanicalHorizon gives some of the most useful inside info I've seen.
As for the final deletion of the range, it isn't hard to figure. GW had a set of games for which new products had not been released for the better part of a decade and had not been sold outside a GW store for even longer.
If those lines are seen as not worth the manpower to produce and distribute and/or as cannibalizing GW's other games, and/or seen a distraction from the companies direction, and/or as part of a move away from metal figures then they would be dropped.
I think the initial decision to slow and end support of what came to be called "specialist games" was folly, but it was easy to see many reasons why they may finally have dropped the lines entirely.
The board only focuses on maximizing profit, Anything that doesn't do that gets scrapped, too bad that the specialist games were great entry games into the HHHobby.
And a lot of Veterans play(ed) them. But thanks to GW's wisdom other companies filled that void and now we have Dropzone, infinity, x-wing and many more to scratch that itch.
(really miss Necromunda and Battlefleet Gothic though).
It has always struck me as odd that if they thought they were cannibalizing their own sales with the specialist games why not reinvent them to be a feeder system to the larger (and much more expensive) games.
A Fantasy and 40k skirmish system which used the existing races and their miniature ranges which encouraged you to play escalating points with a campaign system that could link to the main systems would have been very advantageous for them.
StraightSilver wrote: In a nutshell small scale skirmish games no longer fit into GW's business model.
In other words games where you only need maybe up to a dozen figures to play just aren't what GW are about these days, they want to sell you as many models as they possibly can.
This actually doesn't make sense, given that GW know the majority of their customers don't stay with them long enough to dump a full army worth of money into their bank account. Skirmish games are perfect for what they consider their core market - kids that dump one birthday and one Christmas worth of money into the hobby.
A game like Necromunda or Mordheim would be far more attractive to those they consider their core market, since the idea of getting a complete game for that money would draw more customers.
A reboot might have potential -- these games have enough of a following, and GW can still make awesome-looking models.
But it's more likely that poor business decisions and marketing will screw it up -- Dreadfleet was an ok game with really cool models and it didn't do very well.
I'd still probably give them money if they rebooted gorkamorka.
I agree on the reasons why they were dropped.
Not going to get into the details of that though
i have a few remarks on te games though...
1. Personally, I liked o loved several of them.
Loved- Blood Bowl, Necromunda
Liked Gorkamorka
Never tried but SO wanted to- the space ship one, Dark future and mordheim
2. The gangs/teams and such are/were VERY easily converted from basic plastic troop kits. This included combinations such as fantasy s being mixed with 40k guns and weapons to make gangs. I actually found this easier to do and far cheaper than using the official metal models. Often looked far better too. So releasing ow to" tutorials for doing this could ost the sales of the models that are ought for that reason without having to o overboard sculpting new ones.
3. Been a while since I looked but I remember them having the rules up as a free download on their site with updates (living rule book for blood bowl for example). Havnt seen them for a while but since they were put up as free downloads, they shouldnt complain if we find copies of those free downloads and used them.
4. Not hard to customize the free download rules to suit individual gaming clubs/shops and all to suit our own needs. After all, they arent supporting them, why shouldnt we make sure they suit our needs.
5. You can find or customize similer games pretty much anywhere. However, they dont all have the same fluff or flavor or feel that we grew to love in these games. I would even be tickled to death if they "sold" the games to other companies so that they could support them and help them grow while keeping the flavor and feel we love. Unfortunately, I dont see that happening.
6. Yes, i would buy reboots of the games I listed as loving and proably also the ones I listed as liking and maybe even Dark Future if they rebooted it. (although i think they may have sold the rights to dark future. i remember someone telling me that the novels were picked up by someone else and I really wanted to see how some of them "wound up".
I don't think Dark Future was taken up by anyone. What happened was that a different line of books called Dark Future appeared and even though GW had stopped making any Dark Future models or books, they sued them anyway.
Does anyone else think that the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle might have a Mordheim-esq element?
The rumors basically say that the new game will be playable at a skirmish level, instead of always working with huge companies of minis.
I think it makes a lot of sense for GW to roll Mordheim into WFB. Simply make a skirmish format for WFB, rather than requiring a new rulebook.
That way, if you hook people with the skirmish game, they're more likely to eventually 'up grade' to large WFB armies (they'll already have the rulebook).
There's always the possibility that a big change that GW makes might actually include some good things too.
mechanicalhorizon wrote: I can't say from a sales perspective what happened with those games, but I can give you some info about the manufacturing side.
Mordheim and Necromunda had way too many parts and took a long time to produce molds and castings for them.
After making the master molds and casting master tins, we would cast anywhere from 10-30 pieces of each part then we would have to clean the mold lines off all of those parts.
Each set of tins was comprised of one code, and we would have 10-13 pieces that we would have to clean the mold lines off of.
Take for example the Pit Fighter Warband. It had 14 components. Each component had between 10-30 tins that needed to be cleaned at an average of 1 hour per set (sometimes longer). Just cleaning the tins for one warband takes time away from all the other items that need to be made, both from SG and the main range.
Then you have to make (at least) one mold per component, we usually made 2-3 and we rarely used mixed molds at this time since mixed molds caused confusion and mispacks. So now you have 42 molds to be made just for that one warband.
One silicone mold takes 2 hours to vulcanize, one hour to post-cure then anywhere from 10-20 minutes to cut in. And we had 42 molds to make for just that one warband with a staff of 6 people (at the time).
Then you had the other 3-4 warbands that were released that same week to deal with, in addition to all the other new releases from the main ranges and also molds to replace worn out molds.
Necormunda was just as bad, so was Inquisitor. They just had too damn many parts.
There were times that Specialist Games was releasing twice the amount of new product as the main ranges (40K and WFB).
That's a hell of a lot of work to get done, so we were frequently behind schedule.
From what I was told, manufacturing all that product was starting to interfere with the manufacturing of the main ranges.
We did try to have a separate cell dedicated to SG product, but they inevitably would be making molds for whatever was needed and we also didn't want to double-up on equipment (that would just increase our costs as well). So everything was done just from one department.
Now the above example was my experience in Baltimore and Memphis, not Lenton. I know Lenton had a larger staff than we did, so maybe they had it easier.
However, in my own experience, people were much more likely to repurpose Warhammer miniatures than buy Mordheim miniatures - a trollslayer is a trollslayer. The pitfighters were mostly made from repurposed Chaos thugs and Goliath gangers from Necromunda.
Folks bought quite a few of those Mordheim accessory sprues from GW mailorder for the backpacks, lanterns, bucklers, etc..
In my area, right now, there is a Mordheim campaign running - while Warhammer has been completely replaced by Kings of War. (And the plastic War of the Roses figures by Perry Miniatures are providing entire warbands....)
And now most of the warbands use miniatures by a whole bunch of companies - at least a few have no GW minis at all. (For irony, some of the Kings of War armies are composed entirely of GW miniatures.)
Folks 'round here aren't afraid to repurpose miniatures.
odinsgrandson wrote: Does anyone else think that the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle might have a Mordheim-esq element?
The rumors basically say that the new game will be playable at a skirmish level, instead of always working with huge companies of minis.
I think it makes a lot of sense for GW to roll Mordheim into WFB. Simply make a skirmish format for WFB, rather than requiring a new rulebook.
That way, if you hook people with the skirmish game, they're more likely to eventually 'up grade' to large WFB armies (they'll already have the rulebook).
There's always the possibility that a big change that GW makes might actually include some good things too.
No, the rumours don't say anything like that, people are just inferring that because of the change to round bases.
Our local GW was under a cinema, and when the hobbit premiered there was a box with each ticket containing a well painted model (was free with ticket) that came with a note saying something along the lines of " come see us downstairs to learn how to play" and i thought that was a good idea.
Still unknown if the manager paid for it out of his own pocket or not (he was a absolute legend) but it’s the thought that counts
The games would sell well, I think hardbacks. Especially if the latter part of the hardback had a modeling section giving tips on "repurposing miniatures" from the main ranges. that way, it would only be the book itself to ell and it would boost sales from the main lines.
its true from what I've seen, hardly anyone actually used the "official" models.
I've re-purposed the Chaos Cultists from the DV boxed set as a Goliath gang..........yeah they aren't as beefy but I get to use them all WYSIWYG that way.
We still play Necromunda just as much as we play 40k if I'm honest.
The skirmish games were probably ditched as they don't make tons of money, like the bigger table top versions of 40k and WHFB. Once you've got 10-20 gangers you've got more than enough.
I have got three gangs though, and bought plenty of gribblies from heresy miniatures to use in our campaign.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't think Dark Future was taken up by anyone. What happened was that a different line of books called Dark Future appeared and even though GW had stopped making any Dark Future models or books, they sued them anyway.
EVIL INC wrote:
...Never tried but SO wanted to- the space ship one, Dark future and mordheim…
... maybe even Dark Future if they rebooted it. (although i think they may have sold the rights to dark future. i remember someone telling me that the novels were picked up by someone else and I really wanted to see how some of them "wound up".
Just to clarify, Dark Future was never a supported part of specialist games. GW simply put the rules up on the website for free for a few years. Dark Future was dead for well over a decade before the "Specialist Games" division was created. Of course (probably due to a very poor wikipedia entry) alot of folks don't realize that most of what we call "Specialist Games" were not originally under the "Specialist Games" label and were in fact originally part of the core family of GW games.
Those who gamed in the 90's will recall major store and WD support for games like Necromunda, Epic, Gorkamorka and Mordheim. Specialist Games is a relatively recent invention and was created '02. Supposedly formed to support these and others not part of GW's 3-game focus, but within a few years it was clear that Specialist games was where games go to die. IIRC, no new specialist games products have been produced since 2005 or so and the division was folded in 2009.
Oh, I know dark Future was not a "specialist game". Doesnt mean I dont remember reading about it in White Dwarf and wanting to play it back in the 80s. lol I think I have the rules printed off somewhere (in a box most likely lol)
How could I forget epic?!?! Especially after the thousands I forked over for it and then later having had almost all of it stolen. That was one of my gaming group's favorite games we played.
The 'Specialist Games' label started to spell the end for specialist games IMO. Before that they were just games in their catalog and all got reasonable coverage. But after they created that term it just became a way to group everything that wasn't Fantasy or 40K into an "everything else" label and push it into obscurity. The 'Specialist Games' tab on their website became a graveyard for all those games they'd lost interest in but presumably had some stock sitting around to use up.
Howard A Treesong wrote: The 'Specialist Games' label started to spell the end for specialist games IMO. Before that they were just games in their catalog and all got reasonable coverage. But after they created that term it just became a way to group everything that wasn't Fantasy or 40K into an "everything else" label and push it into obscurity. The 'Specialist Games' tab on their website became a graveyard for all those games they'd lost interest in but presumably had some stock sitting around to use up.
And those same games were, sadly, some of their very best games.
Epic is and will most likely always will be the best game GW somehow managed to make, the rules were well thought out and tight, the minis were nice, I still feel its hard to believe that GW actually made that game.
Because every business owner knows that diversification of your product line and monopolizing all parts of your market is a stupid, stupid, stupid idea. Amirite guys!
It would absolutely work ( well not now with so many companies producing such scales of games and doing a great job with it ) in a business sense as well. Each pack can be a whole new faction or an expansion too an existing faction. The affordability too do this is one of the big reasons alone you will see more and more 28mm games done this way, instead of having to invest untold tens of thousands to get a faction starting up you can invest much less to get several factions going in a game.
It can turn over just as many numbers , look at infinity an amazing growing and successful company ( though their games are nothing like the two GW produced they are still a high individual miniature count game). Strange Aeons is another game I have played and that game has a lot of similarities with these two games and it just did an amazing kickstarter reaching over their 10000 goal in the first day.
These types of games hybrid wargaming with lite RPGs and are really fantastic types of games that I think we will all see more of in the market ( ) as it continues too grow. It is affordable for new companies to come out and get a running game product out for such games. They can have some fantastic character and managing your force in between games adds a whole other level to the game aspect.
The only reason these two games were not selling as well was because GW stopped supporting them at all. I highly doubt they were taking up casting times unless they really were using the cheapest and poorest casting materials around ( like their Finecast ). This style of game to be honest I feel is one of the game types that best suit 28mm scale gaming, they even still too this day have fan groups for those two which just shows how strong of a product it was for them.
I have played Epic myself and I can say it truly is probably their best game too this day, it was solid , scaled right and everything felt good. The mechanics fit the scale and were simple and easy too learn. 6mm miniatures are quite affordable too produce and have sculpted that the average joe could easily fund a faction or two of their own. The Specialist games could still be thriving and I think their biggest product if they had supported them but they didn't and that is why they went out.
However why would I complain? its been great for the wargaming hobby as a whole as so many companies have filled these gaps GW have left for us and the market has been thriving and growing with these types of games that " doesn't support their business model" so I am sure they can be just as every bit profitable as any large scale game I would even argue more so because how the market has been moving in the last few years. Players want games that do not take hours too play, they want games that move quicker so they can play more in a day and get a few in before they have to rush off home or to work. I feel even mantic is seeing this move and this is why they are moving towards smaller scale games.
In the end these game types are just as profitable and much easier too fund and get on their feet and running than larger scale games, they can attract younger and new players much easier with low investment cost. Well and for those who say but that's all they will buy? you produce several different factions expansions too those factions and you will see players purchasing several forces and expanding their current forces, trying out new unit types, different races and play styles. You can sell just as well you just need too plan for it which is no different from any other scale and type of wargame out their.
I have hopes that the obvious failure of the Hobbit licence will see in-part a refocusing on these much neglected lines but we shall see.
The failure of the Hopbbit licence isn't due to a weak IP, but mismanagement and trying to treat it like a combination of their current high-price "premium" product, along with (an attempt to) make it "more premium" due to their perspective on the "Tolkien collectors" market.
StraightSilver wrote: In a nutshell small scale skirmish games no longer fit into GW's business model.
In other words games where you only need maybe up to a dozen figures to play just aren't what GW are about these days, they want to sell you as many models as they possibly can.
This actually doesn't make sense, given that GW know the majority of their customers don't stay with them long enough to dump a full army worth of money into their bank account. Skirmish games are perfect for what they consider their core market - kids that dump one birthday and one Christmas worth of money into the hobby.
A game like Necromunda or Mordheim would be far more attractive to those they consider their core market, since the idea of getting a complete game for that money would draw more customers.
They were worried that these short term customers would only buy Necromunda + a gang, when the figured without Necromunda they'd instead buy 40K + an army, before leaving.
They saw the specialist games as a cheap option to get into the hobby, and figured that was all that stopped people spending more, so canned them to allow them to spend more. It's just another classic example of them having no clue *why* people buy their products.
The sad fact is that GW did not see any future profit with these games. Despite them being an intro to the larger scale WHFB and 40K for many the up tops at GW only saw statistics and money. And when they looked at the SG's and saw that they where providing a game where the average player could spend about £30-£60 and have an entire force or two they decided that it was 'not profitable' to them. Ignoring, or more likely just plainly not seeing, the facts that such games where an interesting diversion, a buy-in to the larger games or a source of unusual and custom miniatures and units for the larger games, they decided that it was best just to close them down.
Technically, the dropping began back in 1995 with Man O'War, a great small scale navy game set in the WHFB universe. Essentially the WHFB version of BFG it was dropped under the pretence that 'the moulds have worn out' despite being in production for a scant two years. It was shortly after that when the first signs of the closeting of the SG's came to light with them being removed from the main stores. I can still remember when Mordheim and Necromunda had shelf space at my local GW, and one of the first things to catch my eye being a Retribution class Battleship painted in a beautiful scheme. To this day I can still remember it. It got me further in, as Mordheim got my older brother further in.
Sadly however, GW never realised what size of a goldmine it was sitting on. Unable to realise this the quit producing this line and to this day that is one of the major causes of me not throwing money at them. It is also the reason why I now have to look on Ebay for Escher mini's to add female figures into my units.
The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.
How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.
When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.
Now, they are losing customers left and right to these types of systems and they don;t even know why. Worse,even if they did try to relaunch and reclaim this market they would have to fight really, really hard to regain the market share they had ceded willingly.
The whole Specialist Games debackle showed how short sighted and inept GW managment really were. No vision.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.
I agree with Vermis 100%!, best thing to happen in decades for wargaming!.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.
How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.
When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.
Sorry, but this this is revisionist history and just not true.
There were lots of competitors for all of those types of games back in the 90's. They were smaller compared to the competing games of today, but so was GW and so was the entire gaming industry.
Small Skirmish size games: Firefight, Ronin, kill zone, Heartbreaker/Target had several small miniatures boardgames that were pushing into this space. Alternative armies had (and still has) several warband size fantasy games such as Flintloque, Erin and others. Shockforce, Battletroops and Stargrunt are small platoon skirmish games was closer to Gorka than 40k size-wise.
Space Games: Starfleet Battles, Full Thrust, Battlespace, Silent Death, etc.
There were also many 6mm (and some 10mm) games comparable to Epic and Warmaster.
This is just the 90's off the top of my head and there were many others. All this to say, there's always been a wealth of competitors to GW in all segments of the (admittedly small) wargaming market. It's just that today a bigger market (and the internet) has created active communities around more games. Resulting in more and more-successful games of all sizes.
I think that what made Necromunda and then Mordheim stand out were the rules for ongoing campaigns - where the gang or warband gained experience, suffered injuries, and gained loot over the course of months of play.
The main reasons that I enjoy games like Deadzone, Chaos in Carpathia, or Legends of the High Seas is that they have rules for an ongoing campaign.
There has always been alternatives to GW. Even back in the 90’s games like Warzone, Chronopia, Full Thrust, Dirtside and Kryomek had a solid following. Not to the extent that many modern companies have but they were still there.
I've no doubt the GW's failure to support SG's was a factor in so many alternative gaming companies growing massively over the last 10 years or so and like others I don't think that’s a bad thing. A bit of competition is always good and it's been very healthy for the gaming scene in general.
It’s a shame that SG's died, but the fact that we now have the likes of X-Wing, Infinity, Deadzone, Saga and DZC more than make up for it.
Why in general specialist games were dropped?
Diminishing returns on just keeping the overhead needed to support.
Why they should bring them back with some careful thought:
- All these lines fully tie-in to the stories of both lines.
- We could easily tie-in models to the primary lines so they would always be useful.
- It all seemed to flesh-out the "universe" from everything to their "police", gangs, merchants, sports, galactic warfare: there was something for every scale of their universe.
- It made it possible to play a galactic war all the way down to a warband getting hold of some item that can turn the tide = epic fully realized gaming.
The black library books thread stories that can explore all these elements, they are capable to make people want to see these other elements come into the light again.
This is why so much negativity is lumped on corporate GW at the moment: there is so much possibility to expand in a way that makes business sense and licensing arrangements but they are content to dole out dividends and make no plans for the future of expansion.
Could you imagine FFG to release Blood-Bowl, Necromunda or Epic? Think hard on this and see how it could be a license to make money.
Talizvar wrote: Why in general specialist games were dropped?
Diminishing returns on just keeping the overhead needed to support.
Why they should bring them back with some careful thought:
- All these lines fully tie-in to the stories of both lines.
- We could easily tie-in models to the primary lines so they would always be useful.
- It all seemed to flesh-out the "universe" from everything to their "police", gangs, merchants, sports, galactic warfare: there was something for every scale of their universe.
- It made it possible to play a galactic war all the way down to a warband getting hold of some item that can turn the tide = epic fully realized gaming.
The black library books thread stories that can explore all these elements, they are capable to make people want to see these other elements come into the light again.
This is why so much negativity is lumped on corporate GW at the moment: there is so much possibility to expand in a way that makes business sense and licensing arrangements but they are content to dole out dividends and make no plans for the future of expansion.
Could you imagine FFG to release Blood-Bowl, Necromunda or Epic? Think hard on this and see how it could be a license to make money.
Could you imagine FFG to release Blood-Bowl, Necromunda or Epic? Think hard on this and see how it could be a license to make money.
If they think specialist games cut into their Fantasy/40K market, they're hardly going to license them to others. I think they're dead and they'll sit on them. Releases like Space Hulk are quick cash in the bank and then disappeared as soon as possible. A far cry from the support the game used to get.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.
How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.
When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.
Sorry, but this this is revisionist history and just not true.
There were lots of competitors for all of those types of games back in the 90's. They were smaller compared to the competing games of today, but so was GW and so was the entire gaming industry.
Small Skirmish size games: Firefight, Ronin, kill zone, Heartbreaker/Target had several small miniatures boardgames that were pushing into this space. Alternative armies had (and still has) several warband size fantasy games such as Flintloque, Erin and others. Shockforce, Battletroops and Stargrunt are small platoon skirmish games was closer to Gorka than 40k size-wise.
Space Games: Starfleet Battles, Full Thrust, Battlespace, Silent Death, etc.
There were also many 6mm (and some 10mm) games comparable to Epic and Warmaster.
This is just the 90's off the top of my head and there were many others. All this to say, there's always been a wealth of competitors to GW in all segments of the (admittedly small) wargaming market. It's just that today a bigger market (and the internet) has created active communities around more games. Resulting in more and more-successful games of all sizes.
Yes, and except for a few possible exceptions* ( Full Thrust, Battletech) none of them had any meaningful market share. During the same time, Vor: The Maelstrom, Warzone, and Void all competed against WH40K. However, they also had next to 0 market share. It does not even compare to what we are seeing with the corrosion of market share now.
*= Note, I'm not including Historicals here. I'm talking about Sci-Fi/Fantasy games.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.
I agree with Vermis 100%!, best thing to happen in decades for wargaming!.
I agree with you guys. I was just talking about from a GW Business perspective. It was a really bad thing to let happen.
Edit: I also think even if they did bring them all back, it would be too late for them to put the genie back int eh bottle. GW missed their chance to solidify their domination of this wargaming market.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
Back when these games were around, how many competitors did you see trying to sell space games like Firestorm Armada, Star Wars Armada, or X-wing? None, because GW already had the monopoly with BFG.
How about skirmish games like Infinity, Blade of Songs and Heroes, Deadzone, etc? None, because GW had it locked up with Necro, Mord, and Gorka.
When they systems dried up, suddenly rival companies had room to breath and grow inteh wargames market because GW intentionally narrowed their scope to a certain scale and size of games.
Sorry, but this this is revisionist history and just not true.
There were lots of competitors for all of those types of games back in the 90's. They were smaller compared to the competing games of today, but so was GW and so was the entire gaming industry.
Small Skirmish size games: Firefight, Ronin, kill zone, Heartbreaker/Target had several small miniatures boardgames that were pushing into this space. Alternative armies had (and still has) several warband size fantasy games such as Flintloque, Erin and others. Shockforce, Battletroops and Stargrunt are small platoon skirmish games was closer to Gorka than 40k size-wise.
Space Games: Starfleet Battles, Full Thrust, Battlespace, Silent Death, etc.
There were also many 6mm (and some 10mm) games comparable to Epic and Warmaster.
This is just the 90's off the top of my head and there were many others. All this to say, there's always been a wealth of competitors to GW in all segments of the (admittedly small) wargaming market. It's just that today a bigger market (and the internet) has created active communities around more games. Resulting in more and more-successful games of all sizes.
Yes, and except for a few possible exceptions* ( Hordes of the Things, Full Thrust, Battletech) none of them had any meaningful market share. During the same time, Vor: The Maelstrom, Warzone, and Void all competed against WH40K. However, they also had next to 0 market share. It does not even compare to what we are seeing with the corrosion of market share now.
*= Note, I'm not including Historicals here. I'm talking about Sci-Fi/Fantasy games.
Again, you're simply wrong.
I think you're forgetting even though they all died (none of them supplanted GW of course), Void, Warzone, possibly Vor and others, all seized market share for a while. All of these games were around long enough for multiple years, most lasted multiple editions and they stuck around long enough to build up quite extensive miniatures lines. GW was more dominant then, but in their time Warzone and Void probably had a share of the sci-fi minis market shares that compared to infinity or Malifaux or maybe even mid-00s Warmachine.
I remember the 90's and seeing good sized displays for Void, Warzone and other games. Also, it wasn't as big over here, but Fantasy Warriors built up a massive line as well overseas from what I understand.
More importantly, it wasn't the death of SG's that led to the increase in other options, it was the growth of the internet and the hobby. When online communities began to form to support games, suddenly you weren't limited to the few games the FLGS currently carried. Suddenly you could converse about a game even if you didn't have a big local scene. The result being FLGS's had to respond to what customers were getting excited about online rather than just choosing what they liked or what they thought might sell.
The SG's were great, but they weren't holding back the development of other company's games.
With the efficiency of how they arrange pieces on sprues...they could easily resurrect these lines with ease. The problem is that they'd rather focus on large armies. However, the current 40k business model is all about micro transactions. All the specialist games are ripe for that type of business model. They are idiots.
Howard A Treesong wrote: If they think specialist games cut into their Fantasy/40K market, they're hardly going to license them to others.
I'd say it couldn't hurt them to get another revenue stream going now that 40K/FB sales are falling anyway, but I think that attitude that killed SG is still the way things are run at Lenton. More so, in fact. Anything else would require too much sense.
Looking at how they handled LotR SBG (which began as a small skirmish game) would a skirmish game like Necro/Gorka/Mord be something we'd actually want to partake of?
Would you pay "the Hobbit" prices for Necromunda figures?
Admittedly, there's the whole licensing thing, but LotR was comparatively affordable when it first came out. Then there was the halving of box sizes and massive blister price raises…
People are aware that GW *did* attempt to reboot Necromunda with Necromunda : Underhive, right?
The creative types in the studio tried to relaunch Necromunda without as much of the 2E stuff (Sustained Fire), but it just didn't sell well enough to justify continuing.
Besides, if you want to play Mordheim minus the campaign, Malifaux does a great job of it. Similarly, I think Infinity does a great job of standing in for what Necromunda might have become. And obviously, Mantic has the Blood Bowl thing covered, while X-Wing is absolutely dominating what Aeronautica Imperialis wished it could have been.
But what's really done in the very small skirmishes are the Kickstarter miniatures boardgames. For the same $100 you might have spent on a Mordheim/Nec/BB/AI, you can get a hugely-produced game. $90 for the Conan game is a incredible amount of play value, assuming it ever ships.
JohnHwangDD wrote: People are aware that GW *did* attempt to reboot Necromunda with Necromunda : Underhive, right?
The creative types in the studio tried to relaunch Necromunda without as much of the 2E stuff (Sustained Fire), but it just didn't sell well enough to justify continuing.
Besides, if you want to play Mordheim minus the campaign, Malifaux does a great job of it. Similarly, I think Infinity does a great job of standing in for what Necromunda might have become. And obviously, Mantic has the Blood Bowl thing covered, while X-Wing is absolutely dominating what Aeronautica Imperialis wished it could have been.
But what's really done in the very small skirmishes are the Kickstarter miniatures boardgames. For the same $100 you might have spent on a Mordheim/Nec/BB/AI, you can get a hugely-produced game. $90 for the Conan game is a incredible amount of play value, assuming it ever ships.
Actually... I have to admit to never having heard of Underhive. Despite it coming out long enough ago that I stilled played GW games - though after I had given up on White Dwarf.
And I really do not want to 'play Mordheim minus the campaign'. That is the number one reason that I do not play Malifaux - it is missing what I consider the best part of the game.
Deadzone comes a heck of a lot closer to scratching my Necromunda itch than Malifaux comes to scratching the much more severe Mordheim itch.
JohnHwangDD wrote: People are aware that GW *did* attempt to reboot Necromunda with Necromunda : Underhive, right?
Oh sure. That turned up in the local GW store along with Epic: Armageddon and the other SGs, in one last gasp to show some of us what a shower of gak 40K and FB were, before GW yanked the plug. I still have the half-assembled Kroot Escher proxies lying around here somewhere.
Besides, if you want to play Mordheim minus the campaign, Malifaux does a great job of it.
I wasn't aware Malifaux had included Middenheim youngbloods and Skaven warpstone hunters.
Different strokes for different folks. Some people like RPG / league / campaign elements, others don't. Personally, I like the Mordheim campaign, along with things like the WFB6 Border Princes campaign (that was pretty fun). But it appears to be a minority of minis gamers who just like a quick fight and then to see what happens afterward. With my reduced commitment to regular gaming, in favor of RL stuff, Malifaux and such seem awfully attractive compared to campaign-centric things like Mordheim or mass volume things like Warhammer Fantasy.
WRT "coreheim", nice link. For how much I play, the black book is enough (and very good!).
TheAuldGrump wrote: Actually... I have to admit to never having heard of Underhive. Despite it coming out long enough ago that I stilled played GW games - though after I had given up on White Dwarf.
And I really do not want to 'play Mordheim minus the campaign'. That is the number one reason that I do not play Malifaux - it is missing what I consider the best part of the game.
Deadzone comes a heck of a lot closer to scratching my Necromunda itch than Malifaux comes to scratching the much more severe Mordheim itch.
The Auld Grump
As for Underhive, You might have heard of it without realizing it. If you downloaded the "living rulebook" from GW or the many other places it was/is available, you were/are getting a slightly edited version of what was previously in print as "Underhive". Underhive was a nice attempt to put it all (Necro and Outlanders) in one book and fix a few things, but IIRC, it didn't add much to the game setting and I don't think it included everything from the "Outlanders" expansion. The missing outlanders stuff was eventually all available online, but essentially Underhive was an edition that had less in print than the original version.
I always wanted to play Mordheim but never got the chance. It's not quite as detailed a game as Mordheim, but I've found that Song of Blades and Heroes with it's "...Deeds and Glory" campaign expansion more than scratches my itch for warband skirmish fantasy campaigns. We do a summer campaign each year at the club . Usually around 6 meetings long which means that each player usually gets in anywhere from 6-10 games. It always takes place in the fictional Qaarra setting the club has created. You can see last summer's campaign games here:
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/09/quake-mourn-campaign-report-session-5_26.html
Though there is talk of trying Necromunda, at this point. I doubt we'd ever do Mordheim now. The setting and warbands just dosn't cover all the various kinds of warbands we like to use. Song of Blades on the other hand is wide open for warband creation.
Bottle wrote: If you're gonna play Necro it has to be with the original rules. None of this house weapon list or hand flamers are one shot flamer nonsense. I still play Necro by the original rules only, they are the best
I have all the original books and box sets for the game. I like reading them for the rules perspective compared to "modern day" rules.
I like the gang progression tables and income, can be quite the campaign rules.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Different strokes for different folks. Some people like RPG / league / campaign elements, others don't. Personally, I like the Mordheim campaign, along with things like the WFB6 Border Princes campaign (that was pretty fun). But it appears to be a minority of minis gamers who just like a quick fight and then to see what happens afterward. With my reduced commitment to regular gaming, in favor of RL stuff, Malifaux and such seem awfully attractive compared to campaign-centric things like Mordheim or mass volume things like Warhammer Fantasy.
WRT "coreheim", nice link. For how much I play, the black book is enough (and very good!).
When only two options are available it is hard to truly compare if a Campaign- centric game vs pure skirmish games and mass volume games ( which still do not work well in 28mm and I myself have never enjoyed just too set my view on this). I would argue when it is done Campaign- Centric games can have just as much appeal compared too the other two. I tried out a game called Strange Aeons and the very first thing I came to love about the game was the time you spent outside of the game leveling up your group, buying them new equipment and seeing the results of each game as it takes its effects on them, making some better, some worst and more often than not some great comedy ensued with certain traits.
These type of games are great for building character in your force, giving meaning and names too your characters, SEEING A STORY PROGRESS is far more enjoyable to myself and brings much more context and meaning into games than the simple " Fight to the death, unit a or b it doesn't matter what happens too them , as long as we win". This is one of the reasons RPGs are so enjoyable when done right, they create stories and "Forge the narrative ".
I think they can be as ever bit as popular as either of the other two. However I also do see the strengths in a quick pick up game, however campaign centric games can do this as well setting a point limit and building the force you want too use I still find more enjoyable than the average standard skirmish game. It is what I feel is really lacking in Infinity, Malifaux, Hordes and Warmachine as they feel as though they are missing something and are lacking in this area.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Different strokes for different folks. Some people like RPG / league / campaign elements, others don't. Personally, I like the Mordheim campaign, along with things like the WFB6 Border Princes campaign (that was pretty fun). But it appears to be a minority of minis gamers who just like a quick fight and then to see what happens afterward. With my reduced commitment to regular gaming, in favor of RL stuff, Malifaux and such seem awfully attractive compared to campaign-centric things like Mordheim or mass volume things like Warhammer Fantasy.
WRT "coreheim", nice link. For how much I play, the black book is enough (and very good!).
When only two options are available it is hard to truly compare if a Campaign- centric game vs pure skirmish games and mass volume games ( which still do not work well in 28mm and I myself have never enjoyed just too set my view on this). I would argue when it is done Campaign- Centric games can have just as much appeal compared too the other two. I tried out a game called Strange Aeons and the very first thing I came to love about the game was the time you spent outside of the game leveling up your group, buying them new equipment and seeing the results of each game as it takes its effects on them, making some better, some worst and more often than not some great comedy ensued with certain traits.
These type of games are great for building character in your force, giving meaning and names too your characters, SEEING A STORY PROGRESS is far more enjoyable to myself and brings much more context and meaning into games than the simple " Fight to the death, unit a or b it doesn't matter what happens too them , as long as we win". This is one of the reasons RPGs are so enjoyable when done right, they create stories and "Forge the narrative ".
I think they can be as ever bit as popular as either of the other two. However I also do see the strengths in a quick pick up game, however campaign centric games can do this as well setting a point limit and building the force you want too use I still find more enjoyable than the average standard skirmish game. It is what I feel is really lacking in Infinity, Malifaux, Hordes and Warmachine as they feel as though they are missing something and are lacking in this area.
Just a point - Malifaux book 3 is in beta, and has a campaign system. Looks pretty fun, though doesn't go to the depth Mordheim or Necromunda did with individual model customisation. You use standard profiles, but they can gain skils and loot, or carried over debuffs or outright death (or being captured) when being reduced to 0 wounds.
Just a point - Malifaux book 3 is in beta, and has a campaign system.
And Malifaux book 2 was released... how many months ago?
I feel like GW's legacy isn't just freeing up gaming categories and niches, but encouraging the new guys who take up the space to act like them, in ways, too.
GW could make some excellent plastic buildings rather than the flimsy card ones.
i like their "buildings" they have now. of course, not everyone wants to play in a war torn ruined wreck. Many will want to play in functional buildings that have not been blown to pieces yet.
I got a buttload of buildings from Dust miniatures (14 actual sets and another 3 sets worth out of expansions) and they look GREAT and could be assembled to fit necromunda as well. The Dust makers claim they lost a lot of money on buildings but i think that was because not enough gamers from "other games like 40k" have been exposed to them....
http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?SKU=DT040 Moduler to be put together in different ways and levels and easily "destroyed' for those buildings you DO want ruined. If someone wanted a buttload of them, they could probably talk a deal as fantasy flight is trying to get rid of their entire DUST stock and rumor has it they have a huge stock of this.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Different strokes for different folks. Some people like RPG / league / campaign elements, others don't. Personally, I like the Mordheim campaign, along with things like the WFB6 Border Princes campaign (that was pretty fun). But it appears to be a minority of minis gamers who just like a quick fight and then to see what happens afterward. With my reduced commitment to regular gaming, in favor of RL stuff, Malifaux and such seem awfully attractive compared to campaign-centric things like Mordheim or mass volume things like Warhammer Fantasy.
WRT "coreheim", nice link. For how much I play, the black book is enough (and very good!).
When only two options are available it is hard to truly compare if a Campaign- centric game vs pure skirmish games and mass volume games ( which still do not work well in 28mm and I myself have never enjoyed just too set my view on this). I would argue when it is done Campaign- Centric games can have just as much appeal compared too the other two. I tried out a game called Strange Aeons and the very first thing I came to love about the game was the time you spent outside of the game leveling up your group, buying them new equipment and seeing the results of each game as it takes its effects on them, making some better, some worst and more often than not some great comedy ensued with certain traits.
These type of games are great for building character in your force, giving meaning and names too your characters, SEEING A STORY PROGRESS is far more enjoyable to myself and brings much more context and meaning into games than the simple " Fight to the death, unit a or b it doesn't matter what happens too them , as long as we win". This is one of the reasons RPGs are so enjoyable when done right, they create stories and "Forge the narrative ".
I think they can be as ever bit as popular as either of the other two. However I also do see the strengths in a quick pick up game, however campaign centric games can do this as well setting a point limit and building the force you want too use I still find more enjoyable than the average standard skirmish game. It is what I feel is really lacking in Infinity, Malifaux, Hordes and Warmachine as they feel as though they are missing something and are lacking in this area.
Just a point - Malifaux book 3 is in beta, and has a campaign system. Looks pretty fun, though doesn't go to the depth Mordheim or Necromunda did with individual model customisation. You use standard profiles, but they can gain skils and loot, or carried over debuffs or outright death (or being captured) when being reduced to 0 wounds.
That is very interesting to know, thank you for sharing this , it will be interesting too see their take on this style of game!.
I think the writing was on the wall as soon as the specialist games moniker was attached to them.
It was one of the worst mistakes GW have made in my book, Epic and Necromunda were some of the best games I have played, their loss I guess.
I have tried some of the newer alternatives like dropzone commander and infinity, and while I enjoyed them I was not enticed enough to actually splash out on them.
Hopefully one day maybe GW or someone who inherits the rights might actually bring them back, I can hope right ??
i like their "buildings" they have now. of course, not everyone wants to play in a war torn ruined wreck. Many will want to play in functional buildings that have not been blown to pieces yet.
I got a buttload of buildings from Dust miniatures (14 actual sets and another 3 sets worth out of expansions) and they look GREAT and could be assembled to fit necromunda as well. The Dust makers claim they lost a lot of money on buildings but i think that was because not enough gamers from "other games like 40k" have been exposed to them....
http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?SKU=DT040 Moduler to be put together in different ways and levels and easily "destroyed' for those buildings you DO want ruined. If someone wanted a buttload of them, they could probably talk a deal as fantasy flight is trying to get rid of their entire DUST stock and rumor has it they have a huge stock of this.
I've not played Mordheim, but weren't the ruined buildings kind of central to the setting and gameplay? In general I prefer intact buildings myself for fantasy gaming.
As for the Dust Tactics buildings, I think they're great, and I've built up quite a few of them:
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2015/01/fully-painted-dust-tactics-warzone.html but it would take quite a suspension of disbelief to put them in a medieval setting or anywhere before the 1800's. However, I am hoping for a repeat of the holiday sale where they were blowing them out for $9. I bought 9 boxes and have almost entirely used them up.
Eilif wrote: I think you're forgetting even though they all died (none of them supplanted GW of course), Void, Warzone, possibly Vor and others, all seized market share for a while. All of these games were around long enough for multiple years, most lasted multiple editions and they stuck around long enough to build up quite extensive miniatures lines. GW was more dominant then, but in their time Warzone and Void probably had a share of the sci-fi minis market shares that compared to infinity or Malifaux or maybe even mid-00s Warmachine.
I suspect that Warzone had more than that. In some areas it had pretty much taken over from 2nd ed 40K before 3rd ed 40k was released.
See if they came out with a BFG release that worked in concert with a 40k campaign system, I'd be all over that. The current campaigns with two missions and a dozen formations doesn't appeal to me at all. The weak GW kill team rules are evidence that they're simply not interested in using skirmish games as a gateway, though they absolutely should. It'd be easy to build a pseudo subscription model with a core warband and periodic single model releases a la Infinity. So you get people buying in a couple figures every month or so. Then after a year they're already half way to a small 40k force and it's an easier step to full 40k.
Mordheim is great, would love a new release. A skirmish WFB would actually maybe get me into WFB.
TheSilo wrote: See if they came out with a BFG release that worked in concert with a 40k campaign system, I'd be all over that. The current campaigns with two missions and a dozen formations doesn't appeal to me at all. .
I would go further than that, and say that a campaign book for a system assault that tied in BFG, Epic, 40K and Kill Team level battles would be pretty cool... although the market for it would be somewhat limited, since it would only be a minority of players who would actually play all three games.
TheSilo wrote: See if they came out with a BFG release that worked in concert with a 40k campaign system, I'd be all over that. The current campaigns with two missions and a dozen formations doesn't appeal to me at all. .
I would go further than that, and say that a campaign book for a system assault that tied in BFG, Epic, 40K and Kill Team level battles would be pretty cool... although the market for it would be somewhat limited, since it would only be a minority of players who would actually play all three games.
But see, if they'd maintained each of those communities I'd be a great way to cross market them and get people into the other game. I'd much rather have an interesting BFG system supplement than another super heavy, flyer, or formation supplement. Space battles and campaigns would add dynamic new elements rather than straining the limits of the 40k ruleset.
TheSilo wrote: See if they came out with a BFG release that worked in concert with a 40k campaign system, I'd be all over that. The current campaigns with two missions and a dozen formations doesn't appeal to me at all. .
I would go further than that, and say that a campaign book for a system assault that tied in BFG, Epic, 40K and Kill Team level battles would be pretty cool... although the market for it would be somewhat limited, since it would only be a minority of players who would actually play all three games.
I'm kind of surprised nothing like this was ever tried. A book that would allow for linking the games in a campaign setting and transferring units from one game to the next. Sure it might not have been played that often, but how many folks played Planetstorm all the way through or regularly play a full-sized Apocalpyse?
The Battletech Universe does such a thing. There's games for :
RPG : Time of War
Infantry platoon: Battletroops(out of print I think…)
-Platoon/Lance: Battletech
-Battalion: Alpha Strike
-Regiment: BattleForce
-Space Battle: BattleSpace
-And rules in one of the upper level rulebooks for conducting System and Galaxy wide campaigns.
Yet they are all compatible. They use the same construction system, money/credit system and there are rules for taking units and stats from one system to the next.
On the other hand, it's not that surprising. 40k itself has never really had a unified, expandable campaign system.
To be honest, the models for BFG were a bit overpriced even more so than their other models. However, it also looked like that would be one of the easiest games to proxy. Would only be a matter of finding shadow footprints of the ships to make artistist 2 dimensional representations of the out of plastic or cardboard and start playing. Has anyone done this? If so, I might give it a shot.
EVIL INC wrote: To be honest, the models for BFG were a bit overpriced even more so than their other models.
Just to be clear, were you referring to the prices when they were in regular circulation, put under SG or just before they were discontinued. Sorry to be a stickler, but BFG were never the cheapest models (GW has always been among the highest priced wargames producer), but they were not unattainably high in the beginning. It's just that over the years they have gone up in price in the same steep curve (perhaps steeper) as the rest of the line.
When BFG first came out, the metal was a little bit pricey, but the plastics were very reasonable. Then GW started on the long march of price hikes, as players completed their fleets, and that was that.
I believe it was a little towards the end although I remember thinking the metal ones were expensive even when it came out. It's been a looooong time ago and my memory is a little fuzzy on time frames.
When I get "into" a game, I usually go overboard and try to get every single option maxed out as much as I can so I was likely looking at the price of an entire fleet kitted out for myself and then what it would cost for my gaming buddies at home to keep up with me.
The idea still interests me but I'd much rather have two dimensional pieces in the size and shape (with some artwork to show what they are) than the full on models for pricing purposes. I think they could likely stamp them out of plastic sheets and apply decals/stickers for a decent price. This way, you could get a full on fleet with all the frills for the price of one of the older ships or a little more. Better yet, sell it as a battle fleet with all of the options maxed out to the most possible numbers so you can pick and choose all of the possible combinations. Even then, they could sell it for $50 and make a hefty profit.
They could of course, do the same with the fantasy hip based game as well.
TheSilo wrote: See if they came out with a BFG release that worked in concert with a 40k campaign system, I'd be all over that. The current campaigns with two missions and a dozen formations doesn't appeal to me at all. .
I would go further than that, and say that a campaign book for a system assault that tied in BFG, Epic, 40K and Kill Team level battles would be pretty cool... although the market for it would be somewhat limited, since it would only be a minority of players who would actually play all three games.
I think some of the early FW campaign books tried this approach with scenarios for each scale of GW game. That is part of what made them so interesting.
JohnHwangDD wrote: You could do standees / counters today, with no loss in playability. It just wouldn't be as visual.
A group of players COULD do that. However, if my group of players were to play a different group who used the actual models or their own set of "counters" there could be differences in "model" footprint or size and distances ranges.....
This is why a set release of "official" ones with the game would negate that issue and re-introduce the game itself. Not to mention, if done correctly, official countes and such would likely look much nicer than these buttons and that cardboard cutout. of course, making GW a boatload of money would also help the company out and the extra profits could be re-invested into further production, research , playtesting.....(we could hope lol)
Nope. In BFG, the models are meaningless. All you really need are flight stands, because the ships are only as big as the diameter of the rod (about 3/16"). Everything measures to/from the rods.
And even then, the rods are grossly oversized by at least an order of magnitude.
Space is VAST. Ships are miniscule.
Really, if you've ever looked at true scale naval battles, or even tank battles, this would be readily apparent.
EVIL INC wrote: To be honest, the models for BFG were a bit overpriced even more so than their other models. However, it also looked like that would be one of the easiest games to proxy. Would only be a matter of finding shadow footprints of the ships to make artistist 2 dimensional representations of the out of plastic or cardboard and start playing. Has anyone done this? If so, I might give it a shot.
I really don't understand why these games haven't made a come back into GW's catalogue.
Very cool settings that could take up the slack of people getting sick of the vastly growing armies and regular changes.
With the amount of kits available now, and all the conversions (coupled with the popularity of Inq28) shows that even without the kits it's possible to play these and create even more interesting forces.
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't understand why these games haven't made a come back into GW's catalogue.
Very cool settings that could take up the slack of people getting sick of the vastly growing armies and regular changes.
With the amount of kits available now, and all the conversions (coupled with the popularity of Inq28) shows that even without the kits it's possible to play these and create even more interesting forces.
If GW had a bits service they'd be golden.
Video game companies have jumped on the casual market bandwagon: angry birds, clash of clans, peggle, etc. I would think Mordheim and Necromunda would be great casual miniature markets to get people hooked or just involved.
Medium of Death wrote: I really don't understand why these games haven't made a come back into GW's catalogue.
Very cool settings that could take up the slack of people getting sick of the vastly growing armies and regular changes.
With the amount of kits available now, and all the conversions (coupled with the popularity of Inq28) shows that even without the kits it's possible to play these and create even more interesting forces.
If GW had a bits service they'd be golden.
Video game companies have jumped on the casual market bandwagon: angry birds, clash of clans, peggle, etc. I would think Mordheim and Necromunda would be great casual miniature markets to get people hooked or just involved.
But that ignores the key issue that GW wants you to buy WHFB/40k (and everything that comes out) and not Mordheim or Necromunda. Even if people would get hooked, there would be people who would play let's say Necromunda but look at 40k and say it's too many figures/too expensive/they don't want larger battles (basically the opposite of the common "Why I like 40k" type of comments), and that means lost sales to GW.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.
I agree with Vermis 100%!, best thing to happen in decades for wargaming!.
It's the best thing to happen to wargaming in decades if you consider games to be completely interchangable replacements for one another. Not so fantastic if you were a fan of those specific games and would much rather have seen them get years of development and support than be replaced by a bunch of stuff you're not interested in.
GW abandoned Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquistor, Battle Fleet Gothic, Gorka Morka, and Epic 40,000 because they couldn't sell enough miniatures to justify continued investments on a meaningful level. The inability to justify those games comes from GW's attempt to minimize overhead. GW could only give the games the support of one or two designers who had to do everything;a comparable to the overhead that goes into a codex but beyond the initial releases of those games they tended not to sell a volume even close to a codex release. For any one of those games to have been as successful, enough for GW, every person playing a respective game would had to have bought nearly every faction or gotten that many more people to buy into the game.
aka_mythos wrote: GW abandoned Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquistor, Battle Fleet Gothic, Gorka Morka, and Epic 40,000 because they couldn't sell enough miniatures to justify continued investments on a meaningful level. The inability to justify those games comes from GW's attempt to minimize overhead. GW could only give the games the support of one or two designers who had to do everything;a comparable to the overhead that goes into a codex but beyond the initial releases of those games they tended not to sell a volume even close to a codex release. For any one of those games to have been as successful, enough for GW, every person playing a respective game would had to have bought nearly every faction or gotten that many more people to buy into the game.
I think its more along the lines that while the games were 'successful' (they made a profit), GW felt they could make MORE profit by investing the same effort in to their main lines (really, LOTR). It happens all the time, businesses sell off or close down their less profitable arms even if they are making money.
Other companies manage to produce competitors to GW's specialist games with far *more* studio overhead - GW has publishing, designing and production experience and an existing IP to draw upon whereas companies like Spartan had to discover all of this for themselves and invent the entire settings of all of their games.
It's the best thing to happen to wargaming in decades if you consider games to be completely interchangable replacements for one another. Not so fantastic if you were a fan of those specific games and would much rather have seen them get years of development and support than be replaced by a bunch of stuff you're not interested in.
I still smart a bit that GW dropped SGs, especially Epic: Armageddon, but considering the kind of 'support' they've been giving 40K, WFB, and arguably LotR since then ('support' spelled B U Y B U Y B U Y) I can also see it as a mercy.
And y'know what? I've still got the E:A book on my shelf. I can see it right now. It didn't magically disintegrate when GW snipped the SG section off their webstore. I think the guys at TacComm have been doing a decent job with NetE:A; there are more and more proxies that I'm pretty satisfied with, and even prefer to GW's original designs; and there's a nearby club where Epic is seeing a resurgence in popularity.
And if Epic has shrunk some from the public view, well, there's those new competitors with plenty of interesting stuff to soften the blow.
Sucks to get fewer SG games in, but to be honest I can't lie awake at night for every gamer moping over an old game. I was never overly impressed with the potential for pickup games in Timbuctoo or outer Mongolia, and not too wowed by the attitude that a game can only be played (or is only worth playing) if GW drops everything in your lap. (and keeps dropping random crap, for a considerable fee) Never mind if you already have the rules and more than enough minis. I can only worry about my own local clubs and groups, whether they suddenly develop gaming monomania, and how I might do something to get round it and get my fave games noticed.
BFG, Gorkamorka, necromunda, Mordheim, Inquisitor, Epic....how I miss that age of GW, I think some of my most enjoyable games were in those off shoots..I think I laughed more playing gorkamorka than all of my other Gw related experiences combined.
Vermis wrote:[
And y'know what? I've still got the E:A book on my shelf. I can see it right now. It didn't magically disintegrate when GW snipped the SG section off their webstore...
...Sucks to get fewer SG games in, but to be honest I can't lie awake at night for every gamer moping over an old game. I was never overly impressed with the potential for pickup games in Timbuctoo or outer Mongolia, and not too wowed by the attitude that a game can only be played (or is only worth playing) if GW drops everything in your lap. (and keeps dropping random crap, for a considerable fee) Never mind if you already have the rules and more than enough minis. I can only worry about my own local clubs and groups, whether they suddenly develop gaming monomania, and how I might do something to get round it and get my fave games noticed.
Good points.
Playing SG games just takes a bit of effort on the part of the players. Really it doesn't take any more effort than most historical games where you have to do everything yourself: select the era, choose rules, find and paint appropriate minis (often both sides), build terrain, write or find scenarios, etc. Historical guys have been doing this for ages. It's us Sci/fi and Fantasy folks who have tended to get complacent and expect one company to give us the rules, fluff and minis all on one platter.
Of course it does make it a bit ironic that we're planning a periodic Necromunda campaign, to begin in April, but it does drive home my earlier point. GW has already given us enough rules, scenarios, and lists of characters to keep a Necromunda campaign going for years. Surely we can take up the challenge of finding and painting figs (though most of us have necro figs already) and playing a campaign without having the direct support of GW corporate?
The Specialist games lasted a much longer time than any game has a right to expect, but they're not coming back. The tools are there to be used. Don't wait for GW to come back and pick them up. Pick them up yourself and get to work!
JohnHwangDD wrote: You could do standees / counters today, with no loss in playability. It just wouldn't be as visual.
A group of players COULD do that. However, if my group of players were to play a different group who used the actual models or their own set of "counters" there could be differences in "model" footprint or size and distances ranges.....
This is why a set release of "official" ones with the game would negate that issue and re-introduce the game itself. Not to mention, if done correctly, official countes and such would likely look much nicer than these buttons and that cardboard cutout. of course, making GW a boatload of money would also help the company out and the extra profits could be re-invested into further production, research , playtesting.....(we could hope lol)
If you cannot get the models anymore maybe this is an option?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nope. In BFG, the models are meaningless. All you really need are flight stands, because the ships are only as big as the diameter of the rod (about 3/16"). Everything measures to/from the rods.
And even then, the rods are grossly oversized by at least an order of magnitude.
Space is VAST. Ships are miniscule.
Really, if you've ever looked at true scale naval battles, or even tank battles, this would be readily apparent.
Having studied warfare through the ages, I am readily aware of this. You might not have noticed it though but wargaming does not always take exact scale into account. Exact scale and distances and so forth are arbitrary in many of today's games. GW as well as any others.
I did not know it measured fom the rod though. I just like to have an official standard where it is the same for everyone. Of course wanting it to be a win win for everyone including GW along with us players is a plus. It is only a suggestion of common sense where everyone would win.
A note on the use of the flat 2 dimensional representations though. You would not have the stem undrneath. A hole in the top that rods could be inserted into would then allow us to measure from the stem still.
Jehan-reznor- an exalt on the link. Too bad they dont have all of the options for all of the fleets. If they did, would be worth making multiple copies of each fleet to have spares on hand for outside players coming in or playing with strangers.
aka_mythos wrote: GW abandoned Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquistor, Battle Fleet Gothic, Gorka Morka, and Epic 40,000 because they couldn't sell enough miniatures to justify continued investments on a meaningful level. The inability to justify those games comes from GW's attempt to minimize overhead. GW could only give the games the support of one or two designers who had to do everything;a comparable to the overhead that goes into a codex but beyond the initial releases of those games they tended not to sell a volume even close to a codex release. For any one of those games to have been as successful, enough for GW, every person playing a respective game would had to have bought nearly every faction or gotten that many more people to buy into the game.
I think its more along the lines that while the games were 'successful' (they made a profit), GW felt they could make MORE profit by investing the same effort in to their main lines (really, LOTR). It happens all the time, businesses sell off or close down their less profitable arms even if they are making money.
Other companies manage to produce competitors to GW's specialist games with far *more* studio overhead - GW has publishing, designing and production experience and an existing IP to draw upon whereas companies like Spartan had to discover all of this for themselves and invent the entire settings of all of their games.
I agree they were successful, thats why I said "For any one of those games to be as successful" as a codex release.
I think we agree that it all shows GW's short sightedness when you consider how many of the big non-GW games this year draw clear parallels to these specialist games or in the least attempt to fill the same niches.
It's the best thing to happen to wargaming in decades if you consider games to be completely interchangable replacements for one another. Not so fantastic if you were a fan of those specific games and would much rather have seen them get years of development and support than be replaced by a bunch of stuff you're not interested in.
I still smart a bit that GW dropped SGs, especially Epic: Armageddon, but considering the kind of 'support' they've been giving 40K, WFB, and arguably LotR since then ('support' spelled B U Y B U Y B U Y) I can also see it as a mercy.
And y'know what? I've still got the E:A book on my shelf. I can see it right now. It didn't magically disintegrate when GW snipped the SG section off their webstore. I think the guys at TacComm have been doing a decent job with NetE:A; there are more and more proxies that I'm pretty satisfied with, and even prefer to GW's original designs; and there's a nearby club where Epic is seeing a resurgence in popularity.
And if Epic has shrunk some from the public view, well, there's those new competitors with plenty of interesting stuff to soften the blow.
Sucks to get fewer SG games in, but to be honest I can't lie awake at night for every gamer moping over an old game. I was never overly impressed with the potential for pickup games in Timbuctoo or outer Mongolia, and not too wowed by the attitude that a game can only be played (or is only worth playing) if GW drops everything in your lap. (and keeps dropping random crap, for a considerable fee) Never mind if you already have the rules and more than enough minis. I can only worry about my own local clubs and groups, whether they suddenly develop gaming monomania, and how I might do something to get round it and get my fave games noticed.
Can you make even one post on this subject without casting yourself as some kind of superior being zen-floating above the lesser mortals who are so silly as to "like" a particular thing? For the record, I didn't take all my SG stuff out into the back garden and burn it in an oil drum when GW stopped caring about them, I continue to play and enjoy them, modify them, and collect models to use with them(even, shock-horror, non GW models), but despite all the problems I have with GW I still think it's a shame that we likely won't get to see what modern versions of the SG's, in plastic even, could have looked like.
And as for "monomania"; I don't get why this is so difficult to grasp when it specifically comes to tabletop games. If a person likes certain bands within a genre but not others, or a specific videogame but not another game with superficially similar mechanics, it gets put down to personal taste, but say you like a particular game or group of games because of the specific confluence of mechanics, scale, aesthetics, and background which it represents and are uninterested in other games which lack that confluence and, well, that must mean you're some kind of bizarro obsessive with a stunted imagination.
Easy E wrote: The greatest shame is that if these games had stayed current, and they even <gasp> made more of them they would have no competition in the Wargames industry.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I don't count that as the greatest shame, or much of a shame at all.
I agree with Vermis 100%!, best thing to happen in decades for wargaming!.
It's the best thing to happen to wargaming in decades if you consider games to be completely interchangable replacements for one another. Not so fantastic if you were a fan of those specific games and would much rather have seen them get years of development and support than be replaced by a bunch of stuff you're not interested in.
It is in our view the best thing too happen as it allows more openings in the market place for companies such as ourselves to enter the market and look at such ideas and say how can we do things better and different? and go ahead and create our own unique product and have a growing diversity in these styles of games, not everyone would want to play such styles of games in one setting and style which would be the case otherwise.
Of course their different games on their own, but such as GW is ran by men who do not care for their customers they shut down the range. Well that is for your view but many are very happy to see diversity come into the market place and this will overall grow the market and perhaps one day a company will produce the game setting you would most enjoy. You do however have fan made and supported rule sets ( the two names escape me at the moment) and they (unlike what GW puts out) from what I have heard are very balanced and enjoyable, so they have not been supported by GW but their are still rules very much of that setting that are being played and supported right now ( perhaps not in miniatures but theirs so many options now adays that you can find almost anything your looking for).
All in all it is still a great thing for the market place because now other companies stand a chance in producing these types of games without having to fight uphill against a company that would dominate that market place. I see nothing wrong in growth of wargaming instead of it being stuck and stagnant.
I do think GW tried an expansive new small game with the zone mortalis releases. But it felt half hearted and rather exclusive. They want something more than a static board game that can generate sufficient sales to warrant the effort. I can see their point even if I don't like it. I still think they offer GWs best hope of moving more deeply into video games.
I also think that they may have started with a false premise - that if Specialist Games were not available then customers would buy into the larger games.
Instead competitors are jumping in, and giving folks that the smaller games that they want - taking over a niche that GW has abandoned.
I still prefer Mordheim to any of the currently available alternatives - but Deadzone is doing a fine job of filling the smoking boots left behind by Necromunda. (If only the campaign wasn't being run on a work night....)
Eilif wrote:Playing SG games just takes a bit of effort on the part of the players. Really it doesn't take any more effort than most historical games where you have to do everything yourself: select the era, choose rules, find and paint appropriate minis (often both sides), build terrain, write or find scenarios, etc. Historical guys have been doing this for ages. It's us Sci/fi and Fantasy folks who have tended to get complacent and expect one company to give us the rules, fluff and minis all on one platter.
The Specialist games lasted a much longer time than any game has a right to expect, but they're not coming back. The tools are there to be used. Don't wait for GW to come back and pick them up. Pick them up yourself and get to work!
Que Eff Tee.
underfire wargaming wrote:It is in our view the best thing too happen as it allows more openings in the market place for companies such as ourselves to enter the market and look at such ideas and say how can we do things better and different? and go ahead and create our own unique product and have a growing diversity in these styles of games, not everyone would want to play such styles of games in one setting and style which would be the case otherwise.
This too. Heck, I know of at least four wee companies that sprang up to cater for 6mm sci-fi, with their own background and sometimes rules, but also providing proxies for Epic.
All in all it is still a great thing for the market place because now other companies stand a chance in producing these types of games without having to fight uphill against a company that would dominate that market place. I see nothing wrong in growth of wargaming instead of it being stuck and stagnant.
If it's not too hyperbolic, I see the reality of this topic and the potential of the 'what if GW went bankrupt?' topic like something out of the Dune series:
Spoiler:
The god-emperor (hmm, sounds familiar) Leto II controls transport and therefore pretty much everything in his human empire with a stifling grip for millenia, so that when he dies humanity explodes outwards, spreading far and wide and diversifying, relying on no one single locality or government. One difference in the concept is that Leto planned it; I'd hazard GW didn't.
Just a point - Malifaux book 3 is in beta, and has a campaign system.
And Malifaux book 2 was released... how many months ago?
I feel like GW's legacy isn't just freeing up gaming categories and niches, but encouraging the new guys who take up the space to act like them, in ways, too.
If you're implying book 3 (and book 2) is a new edition of the game you'd be wrong there.
) in a business sense as well. Each pack can be a whole new faction or an expansion too an existing faction. The affordability too do this is one of the big reasons alone you will see more and more 28mm games done this way, instead of having to invest untold tens of thousands to get a faction starting up you can invest much less to get several factions going in a game.
