Essentially, strip him down to his boxer shorts, leave all the organs there, how effective would he be without the technology behind him? Could he function or is the black carapace as vital to his function as his own skin?
I'm a little light on info here and was just curious!
Basically I wondered if a marine was captured, sent to Commoragh and stripped of everything he externally had, could he still walk around and kick arse? I don't doubt that he'd still be man+, though am curious about how vital those components are in his ability to, for instance, arm wrestle (just to give a simple.example)
Absolutely. They are essentially "Master Chiefs", genetic superhumans. They wouldn't be as strong as say Orkz or Nidz, but they are stronger than the average human.
jreilly89 wrote: Absolutely. They are essentially "Master Chiefs", genetic superhumans. They wouldn't be as strong as say Orkz or Nidz, but they are stronger than the average human.
Pfft, they're way better than Spartans.
Ultimately, the PA is only icing on the cake for a marine. They're still formidable warriors even without their armor.
The Black Carapace isn't external per say. There's ports that can be seen, but it's not like you could remove it without removing all of a marine's skin first.
If you mean before the Black Carapce is installed, well that's just a scout marine. Of course they're still effective.
Without Power Armor Astartes can still do stuff like bench a thousand pounds with little effort or turn people into mist with punches, you wouldn't want to be on the opposite side. Plus they still have the extremely good training of the Chapter, making them excellent marksmen (virtually all the standard space marine does is pray, sleep, train, pray, and train more).
Plus the ribcage is fused and provides excellent protection against ballistic weapons, and their blood clots instantly and develops scar tissue in seconds.
Basically an Ork Nob, only speedier with less strength.
They also eat and they eat lots. They are like race-horses. They are the top of human evolution, but it comes at a great cost. Hundreds of lives might be lost just to make a simple Space Marine. Of course they are superhuman in battle with great aim, speed and strength often added by centuries of experience.
As for black cerapace I would look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaYW5Cnr5k even though it's unofficial. It's grafted into not just the skin but skeleton. So good luck removing it.
Still very effective. Able to kill an ork with his bare hands, or a group of men for that matter, from what I've gathered from the novels. His anatomy still affords resilience to gunfire, but without the armour he's not bulletproof against small arms, so if a squad of guardsmen, or eldar guardians caught him int the open and got a volley in, he'd be brought down, if not killed.
No reason to remove the black carapace, it does nothing but allow interface to the power armor. Leaving it will not help the marine.
Also, you might want to read the webcomic Eat-a-tau!
Beaviz81 wrote: They also eat and they eat lots. They are like race-horses. They are the top of human evolution, but it comes at a great cost. Hundreds of lives might be lost just to make a simple Space Marine. Of course they are superhuman in battle with great aim, speed and strength often added by centuries of experience.
As for black cerapace I would look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaYW5Cnr5k even though it's unofficial. It's grafted into not just the skin but skeleton. So good luck removing it.
Wat?
Space Marines barely need to eat at all to stay combat effective and can go days, even a week without a meal and not suffer problems (although part of that is probably due to armor. But if they need calories, they can do crazy stuff like eat rocks or metal for substance.
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thegreatchimp wrote: Still very effective. Able to kill an ork with his bare hands, or a group of men for that matter, from what I've gathered from the novels. His anatomy still affords resilience to gunfire, but without the armour he's not bulletproof against small arms, so if a squad of guardsmen, or eldar guardians caught him int the open and got a volley in, he'd be brought down, if not killed.
Normal gunfire like 7.62 or 5.56 shouldn't be that lethal at all, but stuff like Eldar shurikens shred unarmored flesh. Lasguns as well.
Beaviz81 wrote: They also eat and they eat lots. They are like race-horses. They are the top of human evolution, but it comes at a great cost. Hundreds of lives might be lost just to make a simple Space Marine. Of course they are superhuman in battle with great aim, speed and strength often added by centuries of experience.
As for black cerapace I would look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaYW5Cnr5k even though it's unofficial. It's grafted into not just the skin but skeleton. So good luck removing it.
Wat?
Space Marines barely need to eat at all to stay combat effective and can go days, even a week without a meal and not suffer problems (although part of that is probably due to armor. But if they need calories, they can do crazy stuff like eat rocks or metal for substance.
How effective do you think they would be over time if just subsisting on the basics? They can do that for a while, but eventually their superhuman bodies would break down. Heck it's even established in fluff that their dinners are like a feast for us, while it's barely a meal for them. And sure they can scrape by on a diet consisting of bare stuff, but in the end they need something more.
They can go a while without eating, but only to a point. They cannot eat rocks or metal for energy, their skeletons does require some inorganic compounds that they do eat, but its not a substitute for carbs, protein, and fat. They can eat a lot of things a normal human would find inedible though. They probably have the ability to digest fiber, so they could live off of wood and other plant material for a while.
Having the ability to enter a torpid state also allows long periods without eating, but when they wake up they will need food and lots of it.
Marine food has been described as being insanely nutrient dense, likely because lots of normal food simply wouldn't have enough calories unless you were constantly eating them. They'd need to eat foods very high in carbs and fat to meet energy requirements. They'd also need a lot of protein, they'd be scarfing down a lot of red meat.
Beaviz81 wrote: They also eat and they eat lots. They are like race-horses. They are the top of human evolution, but it comes at a great cost. Hundreds of lives might be lost just to make a simple Space Marine. Of course they are superhuman in battle with great aim, speed and strength often added by centuries of experience.
As for black cerapace I would look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaYW5Cnr5k even though it's unofficial. It's grafted into not just the skin but skeleton. So good luck removing it.
Wat?
Space Marines barely need to eat at all to stay combat effective and can go days, even a week without a meal and not suffer problems (although part of that is probably due to armor. But if they need calories, they can do crazy stuff like eat rocks or metal for substance.
How effective do you think they would be over time if just subsisting on the basics? They can do that for a while, but eventually their superhuman bodies would break down. Heck it's even established in fluff that their dinners are like a feast for us, while it's barely a meal for them. And sure they can scrape by on a diet consisting of bare stuff, but in the end they need something more.
They don't break down in the sense that they need a lot of special food, as much as the gene seed is volatile and they need the supervision of the apothecarion.
But they can spend a lon period of time without any resources. Shrike and the rest of his company was stuck behind Ork lines for months without any food from the Chapter. Although they could have eaten orks for nutrients.
You can't extract energy out of stones/minerals because they dont contain usable substances like carbohydrates. They might have carbon in them however that is in bound form which is energy intensive to break up, and carbon isn't carbohydrate either. Guess why nobody uses minerals for energy extraction. And they have to eat way more then regular humans do, alone from the body mass they have to move around, and also to keep it at acceptable temperatures (core temperature). If they want to be powerfull they need energy, and energy can only be aquired by consuming actual food.
Their strength is to be able to eat stuff that humans would propably die off. And their waste products are recycled by their suit to extract the nutritient parts that are still in it. They still have to consume food. You can't just live from your own gak for a month, no, not even genetically engineered superhumans.
They are the top of human evolution
No they are not, because they are genetically enhanced. They didnt evolve through nature.
They just take turns guarding each other as they graze while behind enemy lines, like they do with Cavalry. Probably eat their victims too, and probably eat whatever they can bite while wandering the battlefield. Maybe they have huge fat storage, it could explain their stupidly large shoulder pads? To maintain their muscle and so on they would need to be on pretty strict diets, so after a battle they would need time to readjust their eating habits. But during battle the only way they could last more than days is if they could eat like animals (grass, leaves, maybe even some wood?)
In a city though it would be like trying to keep a farm going in a city.
They must defecate a lot too. I wonder how many chapters have been defeated because their enemies followed their huge poop trails and huge foot craters?
I wonder how many chapters have been defeated because their enemies followed their huge poop trails and huge foot craters?
rofl... PA propably compresses the filtered dung into a brick (it wouldnt contain any water or nutritient, so it would be quite hard ) , then they could dig a hole and stack the bricks/ build fortifications from them... lol In all seriousness, i'm positive that marines just bite into everything that could sustain them if they don't have access to supplies. Every human would do that, but marines just can do it better (like everything else)
Keep wrote: You can't extract energy out of stones/minerals because they dont contain usable substances like carbohydrates. They might have carbon in them however that is in bound form which is energy intensive to break up, and carbon isn't carbohydrate either. Guess why nobody uses minerals for energy extraction. And they have to eat way more then regular humans do, alone from the body mass they have to move around, and also to keep it at acceptable temperatures (core temperature). If they want to be powerfull they need energy, and energy can only be aquired by consuming actual food.
Their strength is to be able to eat stuff that humans would propably die off. And their waste products are recycled by their suit to extract the nutritient parts that are still in it. They still have to consume food. You can't just live from your own gak for a month, no, not even genetically engineered superhumans.
They are the top of human evolution
No they are not, because they are genetically enhanced. They didnt evolve through nature.
Yep. Evolution happens to a population not to an individual despite what Pokemon might say.
Evolution is not necessarily natural though -- artificial selection still produces separate species by purposefully select desirable genotypes in a subject's gene pool.
What makes space marines not a viable evolutionary step is that they cannot reproduce by themselves.
I wonder how many chapters have been defeated because their enemies followed their huge poop trails and huge foot craters?
rofl... PA propably compresses the filtered dung into a brick (it wouldnt contain any water or nutritient, so it would be quite hard ) , then they could dig a hole and stack the bricks/ build fortifications from them... lol In all seriousness, i'm positive that marines just bite into everything that could sustain them if they don't have access to supplies. Every human would do that, but marines just can do it better (like everything else)
Is the poop brick factory in their shoulder pads too? Or does their body do this?
Even so, brick poop would still be track-able. Im surprised brick poop isnt used as their ammo. They could have guns with cartridges designed to fit their compressed poop bricks, and then use a mass driver system to launch chunks of it at the enemy with killer speeds. They will just have to get over the fact they might be eating someones poop when they feast on their victims.
They just take turns guarding each other as they graze while behind enemy lines, like they do with Cavalry. Probably eat their victims too, and probably eat whatever they can bite while wandering the battlefield. Maybe they have huge fat storage, it could explain their stupidly large shoulder pads? To maintain their muscle and so on they would need to be on pretty strict diets, so after a battle they would need time to readjust their eating habits. But during battle the only way they could last more than days is if they could eat like animals (grass, leaves, maybe even some wood?)
In a city though it would be like trying to keep a farm going in a city.
They must defecate a lot too. I wonder how many chapters have been defeated because their enemies followed their huge poop trails and huge foot craters?
So many unanswered questions.
Considering their extremely potent stomach acids and saliva, I doubt they actually do so at all. I wouldn't be surprised if an Astartes GI tract resembled something more like a chemical fire where virtually everything is processed.
Also, we in the modern day have figured out how to safely extract and make water from dung, or food.
They just take turns guarding each other as they graze while behind enemy lines, like they do with Cavalry. Probably eat their victims too, and probably eat whatever they can bite while wandering the battlefield. Maybe they have huge fat storage, it could explain their stupidly large shoulder pads? To maintain their muscle and so on they would need to be on pretty strict diets, so after a battle they would need time to readjust their eating habits. But during battle the only way they could last more than days is if they could eat like animals (grass, leaves, maybe even some wood?)
In a city though it would be like trying to keep a farm going in a city.
They must defecate a lot too. I wonder how many chapters have been defeated because their enemies followed their huge poop trails and huge foot craters?
So many unanswered questions.
Considering their extremely potent stomach acids and saliva, I doubt they actually do so at all. I wouldn't be surprised if an Astartes GI tract resembled something more like a chemical fire where virtually everything is processed.
Also, we in the modern day have figured out how to safely extract and make water from dung, or food.
I dont think digestive systems can work like that... Even so, that does not mean they would not be eating most of their lives. It would take a long time for them to break up rocks and eat them that its probably not worth their effort given their dietary needs.
Extracting water etc from our feces only lasts so long. You simply cant keep filtering and drinking/eating what comes out of your body over and over. Its something you can do every so often. For example, a rock is of little to no nutritional value, so say they ate the rock, they would get far less from that rocks round 2 in the stomach.
They still need to eat a lot mate, even if they can eat anything. They would also need dentures early.
They will just have to get over the fact they might be eating someones poop when they feast on their victims.
So? If you wanna survive you can't go "meh i don't like the taste of that". In cases like that they develop into oversized bear grylls.
it's getting late, better drink my own piss /bear grylls signing off
Have you seen a heard of cows and the poop that follows? Its nasty. But yes with time and effort they can cover their trails.
Yea I simply said they would have to get over it. I agree on the grylls analogy. Except grills can live off some zebra fat and a few grubbs. Space Marines would need trees and whole zebras.
... the PA is powered by a nuclear reactor. Once the suit has extracted all of the nutrients it can out of their waste, it probably just feeds it into the reactor to break it down on the atomic level to continue providing power.
The Marine would still be strong enough to crush a man or Eldar's skull with their bare hands, fast enough to do so before the former could fully process a thought, and tough enough to have a wooden baseball bat broken over his forehead without feeling it.
So pretty effective in your scenario. Not as fast as an Eldar, or as tough as an Ork (probably stronger than all but a Nob though), but overall more effective than either even without powered armour.
Swastakowey wrote: Maybe they have huge fat storage, it could explain their stupidly large shoulder pads?
So Pauldrons would be like camel humps?
Yes exactly, great for long distance operations where food is scarce. Frankly I think its a great idea and would solve the huge food issue temporarily.
Keep wrote: You can't extract energy out of stones/minerals because they dont contain usable substances like carbohydrates. They might have carbon in them however that is in bound form which is energy intensive to break up, and carbon isn't carbohydrate either. Guess why nobody uses minerals for energy extraction. And they have to eat way more then regular humans do, alone from the body mass they have to move around, and also to keep it at acceptable temperatures (core temperature). If they want to be powerfull they need energy, and energy can only be aquired by consuming actual food.
Their strength is to be able to eat stuff that humans would propably die off. And their waste products are recycled by their suit to extract the nutritient parts that are still in it. They still have to consume food. You can't just live from your own gak for a month, no, not even genetically engineered superhumans.
They are the top of human evolution
No they are not, because they are genetically enhanced. They didnt evolve through nature.
Yep. Evolution happens to a population not to an individual despite what Pokemon might say.
This is true, Space Marines are enhanced, not evolved. Psykers are the pinnicle of human evolution. So Psyker Space Marines are the pinnicle of human (male) potential.
I thought there was some fluff about how the old Thunder Warriors (1st gen Space Marines... sort of?) had PA that was only half-powered or something.... and they were still MUCH stronger than a normal man. Or something.
Zaki66 wrote: I thought there was some fluff about how the old Thunder Warriors (1st gen Space Marines... sort of?) had PA that was only half-powered or something.... and they were still MUCH stronger than a normal man. Or something.
They wore MkI armour which was only powered in the upper body and had no life support or anything the MkII onwards had. Primarily because it was used during the Terran Unification War where they had the right atmosphere. At that point, Terra was heavily populated and the terrain was very dense and a lot of fighting was close combat and hand to hand, so physical strength was important.
Off the top of my head, the novel Hammer of Demons (Counter, GK book 3) has a story in which the protagonist SM is stripped of his armour very early on. Ok, he's a GK, so slightly better off that normal SM, but he's thrown into an arena on a Demon World and by the time he's fought a few rounds, he's knocked enough heads together than some Hive Gangers, Orks and even an Eldar former Scorpion respect him as the biggest and the best fighter they have. It then goes all Gladiator/Planet Hulk, and he leads the slaves in revolution until he finds a ship to get off-world, but the point is, he's pretty badass even without the armour. I can't recall the specifics, but he does most of the fighting in that book with basically medieval gear, unpowered armour and weapons, and against everyone but Demon Lords he pretty handily beats them.
So basically, PA is just another tool to SM, and even without it, they are still capable of winning fights 1v1 against most other humanoids. They still heal in seconds, have 2 hearts, spit acid, can eat anything, go for months witohut sleep, have amazing senses and can punch through solid brick walls with ease. Not the kind of chap you'd want to tangle with.
Psienesis wrote: ... the PA is powered by a nuclear reactor. Once the suit has extracted all of the nutrients it can out of their waste, it probably just feeds it into the reactor to break it down on the atomic level to continue providing power.
Specifically a fusion reactor. It can be powered by virtually anything if you can extract the hydrogen from it, and it can certainly burn anything given that it's undergoing the same process as a bloody star.
They are still very strong and tough, but would die like a tough ork in a firefight. It's always seemed to me that the SMs strongest trait is their defense.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: They can.But they are still part of the human male potential, because they also can be male.
Depends on how you want to look at it. Space Marines are said to be the pinnacle of humanity generally. But I suppose a Culexus would beat a Librarian, but a Librarian of sufficient calibre can waste cities.
But IIRC there's a ton of fluff where space marines fight in the training pits without armor. They're still incredibly lethal. Fast as a blur, and absolutely decked with muscle.
You are forgetting the Assassins also are superhuman. And from what I remember one hundred Eversors gave several hundred Space Marines quite the run-down during the Beheading when the Master of Assassins went off the rails and killed the other High Lords.
Idk, my favorite example of SM absurdity is still the one they chucked into the arena vs Lelith (who is by and large considered borderline godlike at melee combat) and he survives four hours against her (and actually is the only person or thing to land a wound on her in the matches). He was stripped naked and handed two wych blades before the fight started. :l
Lelith, stop playing with your food! Oh, wait, no, you have to play with it for it to actually feed DE souls, so go on cruelly tormenting him for four hours of a desperate, lost before it even begun fight.
Telmenari wrote: Idk, my favorite example of SM absurdity is still the one they chucked into the arena vs Lelith (who is by and large considered borderline godlike at melee combat) and he survives four hours against her (and actually is the only person or thing to land a wound on her in the matches). He was stripped naked and handed two wych blades before the fight started. :l
I've never heard of this incident, what is it from exactly? Besides, it sounds like it could very well be what HSOO described. An Astartes is probably one of the few opponents that a wych could punish for hours on end and not kill, so they wouldn't miss that opportunity. Then at the end, he just finally scored a lucky hit.
Also, for Assassins versus space marines, see Talos taking down M'shen. Assassins are good, but unless it's an eversor, Astartes can just scream. The other houses are good, but they aren't crazy enough to survive their ears being reduced to a ruptured bleeding mess.
Of course if you manage to get into melee combat with a Vindicare, that Vindicare ought to be fired.
n0t_u wrote: There's also the time Lysander was captured and had to escape unarmoured and unarmed.
Spoiler for Bloodquest:
Spoiler:
Bloodquest sees Brother Cloten (a Blood Angel slowly falling to the Red Thirst) captured. He is, if I recall correctly, striped of weapons and armour. He had also been tortured prior to being thrown into a cell. One with super-thick steel bars. Oh, and its in the middle of a chaos stronghold.
It does not go well for his captors.
He's a marine - he can quickly heal from his many wounds.
He's a marine - the combination of acid saliva and hardened teeth lets him gnaw through the steel bars.
He's a marine - he can see easily in the darkened halls. He can advance through the shadows silently.
The list goes on. And on. I don't think he's even sane enough to use captured weapons at this point. Not that a superhuman killing machine needs them.
His allies arrive a week later to find him alone in the ruined stronghold, surrounded by the half-eaten corpses of the garrison. IIRC he welcomes them to his feast.
That's DE 5th Ed lore right thar. She wasn't specifically playing with him, either. She just couldn't for the life of her finish him if I recall. The entire event was a spectacle where she challenged the Archons to bring her an opponent who could hurt her, and when one finally caught one that could, she rewarded him by giving him the sweetest prize of all: a bout against her in the matches! He lasted a much less impressive 5 minutes or so.
Just sayin', even in Xenos books Space Marines accomplish some pretty stupid things, armored or no. When random no-name captains can stand toe-to-toe with the greatest warriors of one of the most feared xenos, completely unarmored and practically unarmed, you really can't question the lethality of the race; with or without PA, a SM will punch you into a fine bloody mist before anyone standing around you can even ask why there's a 8 foot giant crushing people. xD
The Space Marines has power pretty much depending on the writer. One can stand up to Lelith for four hours in one book, in another Ciaphas Cain holds Khorne-berserkers at bay and can be insulting while doing it.
Also, for the effectiveness of an unarmored Astartes, they're best described as imagine a Tempestus Scion raised from Cadia.
Now imagine he's around 7'6 or so, able to bend steel girders, eat steel girders, and rip hatches off tanks like they're paper, and capable sprinting near automobile speeds and dodging bullets. He also patches up most injuries with instant scar tissue, and can survive most mortal wounds besides decapitation, and has redundant organs.
Hell come to think of it, the Admech should just mass produce Scouts, forget the black carapace altogether, and armor them in ceramite plates and call it a day. You can mass produce gene seed already, and adding around a billion dudes on par of Scouts armed with hellguns would be a fearsome sight indeed.
Well I thought the indoctrination was paramount to a Space Marine. If not they could do as you suggest and just force proto-Astartes down people's throats, but it seems indicated in fluff that many are plainly rejected as they give into temptation too easily. And with the corruption that is Chaos running around you really don't want a new situation like with the Astral Claws. Plus you might have had them deflect to Xenos which would be just as bad even if they are the Tau.
Beaviz81 wrote: Well I thought the indoctrination was paramount to a Space Marine. If not they could do as you suggest and just force proto-Astartes down people's throats, but it seems indicated in fluff that many are plainly rejected as they give into temptation too easily. And with the corruption that is Chaos running around you really don't want a new situation like with the Astral Claws. Plus you might have had them deflect to Xenos which would be just as bad even if they are the Tau.
You just have to raise them from childhood. No different then Storm Troopers/Scions, only with more medical attention.
Beaviz81 wrote: Well I thought the indoctrination was paramount to a Space Marine. If not they could do as you suggest and just force proto-Astartes down people's throats, but it seems indicated in fluff that many are plainly rejected as they give into temptation too easily. And with the corruption that is Chaos running around you really don't want a new situation like with the Astral Claws. Plus you might have had them deflect to Xenos which would be just as bad even if they are the Tau.
You just have to raise them from childhood. No different then Storm Troopers/Scions, only with more medical attention.
Your suggestion would make a pretty damn good plot for a novel about heresy and such in mind. I mean think about this. A Genologist stealing a crapload of geneseed from the stores of AdMech to make proto-Asartes and then getting brought down despite having such a force with him or her.
Of course as always power in this setting really corrupts. So expect Chaos to play a major role.
i remember a short story where some adeptus biowizardrywhateverthenameis discovered a "supermarine" in a cryo tank/stasis field but something went wrong. So there have been some mysterious (failed) experiments with marine genes
You just have to raise them from childhood. No different then Storm Troopers/Scions, only with more medical attention.
Seeing as you can create actual space marines from their geneseeds it would be a gift for chaos warbands to send them into battle against them...
Telmenari wrote: Idk, my favorite example of SM absurdity is still the one they chucked into the arena vs Lelith (who is by and large considered borderline godlike at melee combat) and he survives four hours against her (and actually is the only person or thing to land a wound on her in the matches). He was stripped naked and handed two wych blades before the fight started. :l
That is the most mary-sue plot armor crap I've ever read. Lelith is arguably one of the greatest fighters in the 40k universe. I don't recall having read that particular piece in my 5th ed Codex, but good lord. That's not even my very blatant DE favoritism showing, that's just objectively ridiculous. Even Succubi would kill a normal marine in hand-to-hand, and somehow a marine without power armor is the only one to land a blow on her? Please. This is as bad as all the stories in other codices of single marines killing Avatars with their bare hands. It's not impressive if it's not believable.
/rant
That being said, GW has said before that everything in the Black Library on in the Codices is canon, although possibly highly untrue, because the sources. It's entirely plausible that an escaped marine, or one of the captured marine's battle-brothers whipped up a story about how valiantly and expertly he fought before he was killed, which seems like something they would do in order to keep others confident in the fight against the Dark Eldar. You don't want your soldier's to think they're fighting a battle that's impossible to win. If GW wrote that with that sort of thing in mind... well then props to them.
Well for that story to make even a little bit of sense, we would need to say the following. Maybe Lelith was poisonned so that she would lose the match and sick (can DE be sick).
Most enemies, animals etc coukdf be consumed to sustain them.
And even minus armour you have 7 ish feet of insane muscle and steel hard bone. Rapudhealing, fast reactions, enhanced vision etc. To kill one outright need a good weapon and numbers.
Though you might mission kill them but even minus a leg or arm there still dangerous foes.
That being said, GW has said before that everything in the Black Library on in the Codices is canon, although possibly highly untrue, because the sources. It's entirely plausible that an escaped marine, or one of the captured marine's battle-brothers whipped up a story about how valiantly and expertly he fought before he was killed, which seems like something they would do in order to keep others confident in the fight against the Dark Eldar. You don't want your soldier's to think they're fighting a battle that's impossible to win. If GW wrote that with that sort of thing in mind... well then props to them.
This is the way that I've always imagined the Black Library stories. That, and mortals writing the books, hence the not understanding the fluff that goes on in a lot of the books - things like Bolts not being explosive and the like.
jhe90 wrote: Most enemies, animals etc coukdf be consumed to sustain them.
And even minus armour you have 7 ish feet of insane muscle and steel hard bone. Rapudhealing, fast reactions, enhanced vision etc. To kill one outright need a good weapon and numbers.
Though you might mission kill them but even minus a leg or arm there still dangerous foes.
Yep. I like to think of them like Ogryn, but much smarter and about as tough to kill. Humans 2.0
Well I don't think a «Naked» Space Marine represent such a threat to the other races and warriors of 40K. Sure they still are very resistent and strong. Much more than any humen being can hope to be no matter the training. Your average Space Marine can also be just has fast has the best martial artist that mankind can produce. But, they don't stand appart from orks, for exemple, on many things. Your typical Marine would be a little bit stronger than the classical ork boyz without his armor, about has resistent to damage (maybe even a bit less). He his much faster, but orks have claws and fangs which makes them dangerous in wrestling type of combat (they would need to get a old on the Marine first of course). I would give a 80% win rate to the Marine. An ork nob would be probably more dangerous than a Space Marine overall and a warboss would trash an entire squad of unarmed and unarmoured marines without any problem. I would give a nob a 80% win rate in a duel and the warboss would alsmost win all the time. After all, orks wear virtualy no armour all the time and still poses a great threat to Space Marines in close combat and in those situation they do have power armor and weapons of higher quality than the orks ones.
A standard dark eldar witch is so fast even incredibly fast heroic Space Marines look slow in comparison. A normal Space Marine would be like a dim witted brute to one of them. Witches are vastly more experimented to fight without armor compare to Space Marine who get to rely on them. A witch can present a dangerous foe and even win a duel against an armored Space Marines and the armor does make their job a lot harder because their knife can't pierce it. I would say that in these condition the Marine would have a win rate of about 30% against a hekatrix twice less and a succubus would just think the space marine his cute: «He still think he can win! How dumb can they get?!».
An Ogryn would be even more dangerous than a Space Marine because they happen to be much stronger and much more resistent. Of course, I would still bet on the Marine because of his superior skills, speed, agility and intelligence, but one little mistake and he's a dead guy. I would give him a 60% win rate in these conditions.
Kroots would also be a good match for them. They are also very strong (maybe a little bit less than a Space Marine out of his armor but no so much). They are very fast, always fight without armor and very skilled in close combat. Their quills, thick skin and sharp beaks also gives them a edge in close combat versus a naked marine. This would be in my opinion one of the closest match in that kind of duel. I would give the Marine an advantage because of his resistence. I would give him a 60% win rate.
I won't discuss the chance of space marine without armor to kill things like geenstealers, tyranid warriors or even a thing like a hormagaunt. It doesn't seems like a very fair comparison.
Only Tau and humen are clearly weaker than Space Marine in all physical characteristics. All the other can competition against them in at least one field and can even surpass them in some field. They do are dangerous but, much, much less.
The only unaugmented humen who could possibly win a duel against a marine in the pits of Commoragh. Would be a Sister of Battle. She's probably the only humen trained enough in a soft martial art to represent a danger to a Marine and with enough experience (thanks to rejuvenat) to match a Space Marine. I would give the marine a 85% chance of win for the Space Marine. The only chance of the Sister would be to either stick her finger through the eye of Space Marine (relatively easy) to his brain or braking a throat (much harder because of the strength of Space Marines bones but still possible).
epronovost wrote: Well I don't think a «Naked» Space Marine represent such a threat to the other races and warriors of 40K. Sure they still are very resistent and strong. Much more than any humen being can hope to be no matter the training. Your average Space Marine can also be just has fast has the best martial artist that mankind can produce. But, they don't stand appart from orks, for exemple, on many things. Your typical Marine would be a little bit stronger than the classical ork boyz without his armor, about has resistent to damage (maybe even a bit less). He his much faster, but orks have claws and fangs which makes them dangerous in wrestling type of combat (they would need to get a old on the Marine first of course). I would give a 80% win rate to the Marine. An ork nob would be probably more dangerous than a Space Marine overall and a warboss would trash an entire squad of unarmed and unarmoured marines without any problem. I would give a nob a 80% win rate in a duel and the warboss would alsmost win all the time. After all, orks wear virtualy no armour all the time and still poses a great threat to Space Marines in close combat and in those situation they do have power armor and weapons of higher quality than the orks ones.
A standard dark eldar witch is so fast even incredibly fast heroic Space Marines look slow in comparison. A normal Space Marine would be like a dim witted brute to one of them. Witches are vastly more experimented to fight without armor compare to Space Marine who get to rely on them. A witch can present a dangerous foe and even win a duel against an armored Space Marines and the armor does make their job a lot harder because their knife can't pierce it. I would say that in these condition the Marine would have a win rate of about 30% against a hekatrix twice less and a succubus would just think the space marine his cute: «He still think he can win! How dumb can they get?!».
An Ogryn would be even more dangerous than a Space Marine because they happen to be much stronger and much more resistent. Of course, I would still bet on the Marine because of his superior skills, speed, agility and intelligence, but one little mistake and he's a dead guy. I would give him a 60% win rate in these conditions.
Kroots would also be a good match for them. They are also very strong (maybe a little bit less than a Space Marine out of his armor but no so much). They are very fast, always fight without armor and very skilled in close combat. Their quills, thick skin and sharp beaks also gives them a edge in close combat versus a naked marine. This would be in my opinion one of the closest match in that kind of duel. I would give the Marine an advantage because of his resistence. I would give him a 60% win rate.
I won't discuss the chance of space marine without armor to kill things like geenstealers, tyranid warriors or even a thing like a hormagaunt. It doesn't seems like a very fair comparison.
Only Tau and humen are clearly weaker than Space Marine in all physical characteristics. All the other can competition against them in at least one field and can even surpass them in some field. They do are dangerous but, much, much less.
The only unaugmented humen who could possibly win a duel against a marine in the pits of Commoragh. Would be a Sister of Battle. She's probably the only humen trained enough in a soft martial art to represent a danger to a Marine and with enough experience (thanks to rejuvenat) to match a Space Marine. I would give the marine a 85% chance of win for the Space Marine. The only chance of the Sister would be to either stick her finger through the eye of Space Marine (relatively easy) to his brain or braking a throat (much harder because of the strength of Space Marines bones but still possible).
Orks are only capable of winning through sheer numbers. Out of armor an Astartes would be simply too fast for any Ork boy or Nob to peg, much like Eldar or Dark Eldar. They're too fast for them to reliably hit, and unlike Eldar astartes can just rip off their head. And no, Astartes can't be killed by "sticking your finger through their eye into their brain", because you can't actually hit the brain by doing that, the eye socket is almost completely sealed and a finger couldn't fit through it. Plus Astartes have been hit by flame atacks before that melted all the flesh off their skull and survive perfectly fine. The only reliable way of killing one is a headshot that destroys most of the brain tissue or breaking the spine or brain stem.
epronovost wrote: Well I don't think a «Naked» Space Marine represent such a threat to the other races and warriors of 40K. Sure they still are very resistent and strong. Much more than any humen being can hope to be no matter the training. Your average Space Marine can also be just has fast has the best martial artist that mankind can produce. But, they don't stand appart from orks, for exemple, on many things. Your typical Marine would be a little bit stronger than the classical ork boyz without his armor, about has resistent to damage (maybe even a bit less). He his much faster, but orks have claws and fangs which makes them dangerous in wrestling type of combat (they would need to get a old on the Marine first of course). I would give a 80% win rate to the Marine. An ork nob would be probably more dangerous than a Space Marine overall and a warboss would trash an entire squad of unarmed and unarmoured marines without any problem. I would give a nob a 80% win rate in a duel and the warboss would alsmost win all the time. After all, orks wear virtualy no armour all the time and still poses a great threat to Space Marines in close combat and in those situation they do have power armor and weapons of higher quality than the orks ones.
A standard dark eldar witch is so fast even incredibly fast heroic Space Marines look slow in comparison. A normal Space Marine would be like a dim witted brute to one of them. Witches are vastly more experimented to fight without armor compare to Space Marine who get to rely on them. A witch can present a dangerous foe and even win a duel against an armored Space Marines and the armor does make their job a lot harder because their knife can't pierce it. I would say that in these condition the Marine would have a win rate of about 30% against a hekatrix twice less and a succubus would just think the space marine his cute: «He still think he can win! How dumb can they get?!».
An Ogryn would be even more dangerous than a Space Marine because they happen to be much stronger and much more resistent. Of course, I would still bet on the Marine because of his superior skills, speed, agility and intelligence, but one little mistake and he's a dead guy. I would give him a 60% win rate in these conditions.
Kroots would also be a good match for them. They are also very strong (maybe a little bit less than a Space Marine out of his armor but no so much). They are very fast, always fight without armor and very skilled in close combat. Their quills, thick skin and sharp beaks also gives them a edge in close combat versus a naked marine. This would be in my opinion one of the closest match in that kind of duel. I would give the Marine an advantage because of his resistence. I would give him a 60% win rate.
I won't discuss the chance of space marine without armor to kill things like geenstealers, tyranid warriors or even a thing like a hormagaunt. It doesn't seems like a very fair comparison.
Only Tau and humen are clearly weaker than Space Marine in all physical characteristics. All the other can competition against them in at least one field and can even surpass them in some field. They do are dangerous but, much, much less.
The only unaugmented humen who could possibly win a duel against a marine in the pits of Commoragh. Would be a Sister of Battle. She's probably the only humen trained enough in a soft martial art to represent a danger to a Marine and with enough experience (thanks to rejuvenat) to match a Space Marine. I would give the marine a 85% chance of win for the Space Marine. The only chance of the Sister would be to either stick her finger through the eye of Space Marine (relatively easy) to his brain or braking a throat (much harder because of the strength of Space Marines bones but still possible).
Orks are only capable of winning through sheer numbers. Out of armor an Astartes would be simply too fast for any Ork boy or Nob to peg, much like Eldar or Dark Eldar. They're too fast for them to reliably hit, and unlike Eldar astartes can just rip off their head. And no, Astartes can't be killed by "sticking your finger through their eye into their brain", because you can't actually hit the brain by doing that, the eye socket is almost completely sealed and a finger couldn't fit through it. Plus Astartes have been hit by flame atacks before that melted all the flesh off their skull and survive perfectly fine. The only reliable way of killing one is a headshot that destroys most of the brain tissue or breaking the spine or brain stem.
Yep. Most of the kills of Astartes I've seen have been headshots/through the eye lens, blowing them to smithereens, or cutting in half/cutting their head off.
Well I ould disagree with you on few points. First, Your eye socket is isolated from you brain by a thin layer of muscular and nervous tissue and cartilage than can easily be broken and pierced by someone hitting you in the eye with it's finger. It takes fifteen pound of preshure to pierce the eye and about 30 more to pierce the cartillage beind it. All in all 40 to 50 pounds of pressure by a small surface like a fingers tip on your eye socket will severly damage your eye and a portion of your brain. If you are in the mind for an experiment, cut a grapefruit (or a citrus) in half and hit the fleshy part with your finger. The depth you will reach with your finger will tell you at what depth you could have planted your finger in the head of someone. Make shure your nails are trimed and you don't have any little cuts or it will burn like hell. You should be able to reach pretty deep in just a few tries. It's a neet little test to do and it shoes the fragility of certain parts of the humen body rather well and it's a weak spot that Space Marine certainly have since their eyes are no more resistent neither is their cartilage.
Has for Space Marine vs orks, they do are faster than boyz but not much more than nobz and warboss are just has fast has them. They also are just has powerful and a Space Marine would be completly incapable of ripping an ork head of since the ork head is almost has big has his chest, dense and thus must be supported by immensly powerful muscle. Plus, in a grappling move, you allow the ork to negate it's speed disadvantage and use his claws and fangs to rip you appart (not a smart move). Orks are nearly has srong has Space Marines and sometime much much more (and that's with the strength enhancing characteristics of their power armor). Furthermore, without their armor, Space marine aren't faster. Their black carapace allows them to use their armor without any lost of speed or agility so they don't gain any when they loose it. Like I said before, I would think a Space Marine would win most duel against an ork without his armor. But nobs are frenquently discribed killing fully armored space marine rather easily so fighting one without his armor is a lot easier considering the qualities of power armor.
@jrelly89
I would agree on that to, but that's Space Marine wearing power armors who are virtually immune to small arms fire and boost their strength and resistence. You can't really punch a marine in the guts to hurt him in power armor unless you got a powerfist. Without a power armor you just need the strength of an ork, kroot, ogryn or any other creature like that. You can even just stab them to death with a knife.
Well I ould disagree with you on few points. First, Your eye socket is isolated from you brain by a thin layer of muscular and nervous tissue and cartilage than can easily be broken and pierced by someone hitting you in the eye with it's finger. It takes fifteen pound of preshure to pierce the eye and about 30 more to pierce the cartillage beind it. All in all 40 to 50 pounds of pressure by a small surface like a fingers tip on your eye socket will severly damage your eye and a portion of your brain. If you are in the mind for an experiment, cut a grapefruit (or a citrus) in half and hit the fleshy part with your finger. The depth you will reach with your finger will tell you at what depth you could have planted your finger in the head of someone. Make shure your nails are trimed and you don't have any little cuts or it will burn like hell. You should be able to reach pretty deep in just a few tries. It's a neet little test to do and it shoes the fragility of certain parts of the humen body rather well and it's a weak spot that Space Marine certainly have since their eyes are no more resistent neither is their cartilage.
Has for Space Marine vs orks, they do are faster than boyz but not much more than nobz and warboss are just has fast has them. They also are just has powerful and a Space Marine would be completly incapable of ripping an ork head of since the ork head is almost has big has his chest, dense and thus must be supported by immensly powerful muscle. Plus, in a grappling move, you allow the ork to negate it's speed disadvantage and use his claws and fangs to rip you appart (not a smart move). Orks are nearly has srong has Space Marines and sometime much much more (and that's with the strength enhancing characteristics of their power armor). Furthermore, without their armor, Space marine aren't faster. Their black carapace allows them to use their armor without any lost of speed or agility so they don't gain any when they loose it. Like I said before, I would think a Space Marine would win most duel against an ork without his armor. But nobs are frenquently discribed killing fully armored space marine rather easily so fighting one without his armor is a lot easier considering the qualities of power armor.
@jrelly89
I would agree on that to, but that's Space Marine wearing power armors who are virtually immune to small arms fire and boost their strength and resistence. You can't really punch a marine in the guts to hurt him in power armor unless you got a powerfist. Without a power armor you just need the strength of an ork, kroot, ogryn or any other creature like that. You can even just stab them to death with a knife.
I disagree. It would take a lot to stab them to death, assuming they didn't break your arm or hand. Most humans can survive being stabbed, I'm sure super humans could too. Also, since they're super humans, I bet "poking their eyes out" would also take a lot more than the average human. And the strength of an ork or orgyn is actually quite a lot.
As for the orks versus humans things, the Astartes are faster, but I would say that Orkz are stronger, even if only by a bit. Orkz main threat is their numbers and the fact that they are naturally strong, tough creatures.
jhe90 wrote: Most enemies, animals etc coukdf be consumed to sustain them.
And even minus armour you have 7 ish feet of insane muscle and steel hard bone. Rapudhealing, fast reactions, enhanced vision etc. To kill one outright need a good weapon and numbers.
Though you might mission kill them but even minus a leg or arm there still dangerous foes.
Yep. I like to think of them like Ogryn, but much smarter and about as tough to kill. Humans 2.0
Smart helps with right environment they could fight a long guerilla war against a larger enemy force and last out, scavenged weapons, improvised armour, even minus armour brutal environment is not going to slow them much.
There high discipline would also lend a edge.
You don,t want them running off into the wilderness, ruined hive city or nice tight close qauters environment with time, food or access to prey and 1000 places to hide, ambush and disapeer into.
jreilly89 wrote: As for the orks versus humans things, the Astartes are faster, but I would say that Orkz are stronger, even if only by a bit. Orkz main threat is their numbers and the fact that they are naturally strong, tough creatures.
As far as I know, Orks are far stronger than humans, although a bit weaker than Marines (at least when the latter is in PA)
Once the Nobs start getting bigger than Marines they also get stronger, despite PA.
jreilly89 wrote: As for the orks versus humans things, the Astartes are faster, but I would say that Orkz are stronger, even if only by a bit. Orkz main threat is their numbers and the fact that they are naturally strong, tough creatures.
As far as I know, Orks are far stronger than humans, although a bit weaker than Marines (at least when the latter is in PA)
Once the Nobs start getting bigger than Marines they also get stronger, despite PA.
I'm assuming it's Humans < Astartes (no PA) < Orks < Astartes in PA < Nobz/WarBoss
jhe90 wrote: Most enemies, animals etc coukdf be consumed to sustain them.
And even minus armour you have 7 ish feet of insane muscle and steel hard bone. Rapudhealing, fast reactions, enhanced vision etc. To kill one outright need a good weapon and numbers.
Though you might mission kill them but even minus a leg or arm there still dangerous foes.
Yep. I like to think of them like Ogryn, but much smarter and about as tough to kill. Humans 2.0
Smart helps with right environment they could fight a long guerilla war against a larger enemy force and last out, scavenged weapons, improvised armour, even minus armour brutal environment is not going to slow them much.
There high discipline would also lend a edge.
You don,t want them running off into the wilderness, ruined hive city or nice tight close qauters environment with time, food or access to prey and 1000 places to hide, ambush and disapeer into.
Well I ould disagree with you on few points. First, Your eye socket is isolated from you brain by a thin layer of muscular and nervous tissue and cartilage than can easily be broken and pierced by someone hitting you in the eye with it's finger. It takes fifteen pound of preshure to pierce the eye and about 30 more to pierce the cartillage beind it. All in all 40 to 50 pounds of pressure by a small surface like a fingers tip on your eye socket will severly damage your eye and a portion of your brain. If you are in the mind for an experiment, cut a grapefruit (or a citrus) in half and hit the fleshy part with your finger. The depth you will reach with your finger will tell you at what depth you could have planted your finger in the head of someone. Make shure your nails are trimed and you don't have any little cuts or it will burn like hell. You should be able to reach pretty deep in just a few tries. It's a neet little test to do and it shoes the fragility of certain parts of the humen body rather well and it's a weak spot that Space Marine certainly have since their eyes are no more resistent neither is their cartilage.
Has for Space Marine vs orks, they do are faster than boyz but not much more than nobz and warboss are just has fast has them. They also are just has powerful and a Space Marine would be completly incapable of ripping an ork head of since the ork head is almost has big has his chest, dense and thus must be supported by immensly powerful muscle. Plus, in a grappling move, you allow the ork to negate it's speed disadvantage and use his claws and fangs to rip you appart (not a smart move). Orks are nearly has srong has Space Marines and sometime much much more (and that's with the strength enhancing characteristics of their power armor). Furthermore, without their armor, Space marine aren't faster. Their black carapace allows them to use their armor without any lost of speed or agility so they don't gain any when they loose it. Like I said before, I would think a Space Marine would win most duel against an ork without his armor. But nobs are frenquently discribed killing fully armored space marine rather easily so fighting one without his armor is a lot easier considering the qualities of power armor.
@jrelly89
I would agree on that to, but that's Space Marine wearing power armors who are virtually immune to small arms fire and boost their strength and resistence. You can't really punch a marine in the guts to hurt him in power armor unless you got a powerfist. Without a power armor you just need the strength of an ork, kroot, ogryn or any other creature like that. You can even just stab them to death with a knife.
I disagree. It would take a lot to stab them to death, assuming they didn't break your arm or hand. Most humans can survive being stabbed, I'm sure super humans could too. Also, since they're super humans, I bet "poking their eyes out" would also take a lot more than the average human. And the strength of an ork or orgyn is actually quite a lot.
As for the orks versus humans things, the Astartes are faster, but I would say that Orkz are stronger, even if only by a bit. Orkz main threat is their numbers and the fact that they are naturally strong, tough creatures.
Stab wounds are actually the most inefficient means to kill somebody. Real people have survived getting shanked over eighty times and didn't even bleed out. Unless the neck, backs of the legs, inner arm, arm-pit, or liver is hit, you're not going to die from being stabbed unless they start to literally carve flesh.
Well I ould disagree with you on few points. First, Your eye socket is isolated from you brain by a thin layer of muscular and nervous tissue and cartilage than can easily be broken and pierced by someone hitting you in the eye with it's finger. It takes fifteen pound of preshure to pierce the eye and about 30 more to pierce the cartillage beind it. All in all 40 to 50 pounds of pressure by a small surface like a fingers tip on your eye socket will severly damage your eye and a portion of your brain. If you are in the mind for an experiment, cut a grapefruit (or a citrus) in half and hit the fleshy part with your finger. The depth you will reach with your finger will tell you at what depth you could have planted your finger in the head of someone. Make shure your nails are trimed and you don't have any little cuts or it will burn like hell. You should be able to reach pretty deep in just a few tries. It's a neet little test to do and it shoes the fragility of certain parts of the humen body rather well and it's a weak spot that Space Marine certainly have since their eyes are no more resistent neither is their cartilage.
Has for Space Marine vs orks, they do are faster than boyz but not much more than nobz and warboss are just has fast has them. They also are just has powerful and a Space Marine would be completly incapable of ripping an ork head of since the ork head is almost has big has his chest, dense and thus must be supported by immensly powerful muscle. Plus, in a grappling move, you allow the ork to negate it's speed disadvantage and use his claws and fangs to rip you appart (not a smart move). Orks are nearly has srong has Space Marines and sometime much much more (and that's with the strength enhancing characteristics of their power armor). Furthermore, without their armor, Space marine aren't faster. Their black carapace allows them to use their armor without any lost of speed or agility so they don't gain any when they loose it. Like I said before, I would think a Space Marine would win most duel against an ork without his armor. But nobs are frenquently discribed killing fully armored space marine rather easily so fighting one without his armor is a lot easier considering the qualities of power armor.
@jrelly89
I would agree on that to, but that's Space Marine wearing power armors who are virtually immune to small arms fire and boost their strength and resistence. You can't really punch a marine in the guts to hurt him in power armor unless you got a powerfist. Without a power armor you just need the strength of an ork, kroot, ogryn or any other creature like that. You can even just stab them to death with a knife.
Unless Orks suddenly got a massive speed boost last I checked, Orks aren't capable of dodging bullets or moving faster then humans can physically comprehend like Astartes or Eldar. Even Ork Nobs need massive numbers to take on just about anybody, as like Tyranids their main advantages are raw strength and endless numbers. Orks, like Tyranids, win because they drown your millions in billions.
The number of stories describing ork nobz and warbosses smashing Space Marines asside like puppets even in their full gear seems to demonstrate that they don't need numbers to kill you. Shure they will use it, but it's not always necessary. Ghazkull was much slower than Belial, but it's Belial and it's entire command squad who got smashed asside like toys by the Warboss and they had terminator plates which are far better than ork mega-armor. This seems to demonstrate that the Space Marine superiority is paper thin when it comes to combat and can be explain by their tactical acumen and superior tech.
This is a also nice little fact you may like about humen beings. They can actualy move faster they they can see. A normal humen can move like a blur to another humen eyes. In fact a professionnal martial artist can punch you up to three times faster than it takes you to blink litteraly. You don't even use your eyes to block and dodge at that point it's almost useless. You must rely on experience, raw technique and little signs to warn you of any mouvement before they actualy make it. So an average Space Marine doesn't move much faster then the fastest humen in combat and can be countered when it comes to it's speed even by an ork.
The number of stories describing ork nobz and warbosses smashing Space Marines asside like puppets even in their full gear seems to demonstrate that they don't need numbers to kill you. Shure they will use it, but it's not always necessary. Ghazkull was much slower than Belial, but it's Belial and it's entire command squad who got smashed asside like toys by the Warboss and they had terminator plates which are far better than ork mega-armor. This seems to demonstrate that the Space Marine superiority is paper thin.
This is a also nice little fact you may like about humen beings. They can actualy move faster they they can see. A normal humen can move like a blur to another humen eyes. In fact a professionnal martial artist can punch you up to three times faster than it takes you to blink litteraly.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
And what I'm referencing is how Astartes are capable of moving faster then it is physically possible for the human eye to comprehend. As in, faster then the eye can take in light, send the message to the brain, and the brain finally reconstructs the image and generates an image of it in the mind fast.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Blinking is a reflex action. We are talking about the same thing. They can hit up to three times faster than your brain can prossess information. I have added some details in that post you might want to read it again for more information.
The thing is that the power of each individual Space Marine seems to vary alot and surely so depending on the author. Some are almost god-like and can almost fight gods, others slightly better than the ordinary human and dies forgotten like the Space Marines of Starcraft from a strike from an Ork-bolter striking their chest.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Ciaphas Cain and Ibram Gaunt wear invisible Leman Russ plot armour plates. They should not be taken as examples of anything, more than the Mach 180 Marines.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Blinking is a reflex action. We are talking about the same thing. They can hit up to three times faster than your brain can prossess information. I have added some details in that post you might want to read it again for more information.
Yes. That's punching. I'm talking about moving over ten feet in around fifteen milliseconds so to the observer it looks like the dude is teleporting.
There is a million of them. Some are probably unlucky and not very good (compared to other Space Marine). This isn't exclusive to marines. Orks, eldars, even SoB and guardsmen seems to vary tremendously in powers, skills and abilitie. That's the problem with fiction and there is no way to get out of this problem.
@Wyzilla
I haven't read anything so precise about Space Marine speed and it would seems to me like a literary liscence like when I say the following thing:
«Seeing the armed gunman entering her house with murderous intent, Jacky dashes behind the heavy door in her bedroom and closed it shut faster than the eye can see before picking up the phone leaving the dumfounded murderer in the lobby.»
Did Jacky runned throught ten meters in a millisecond and looked like a teleporting heroin to the murderer? Of course not. I just meant she moved really, really fast which surprised the murderer. It's a frequent trick in the Black Library authors arsenal.
There is a million of them. Some are probably unlucky and not very good (compared to other Space Marine). This isn't exclusive to marines. Orks, eldars, even SoB and guardsmen seems to vary tremendously in powers, skills and abilitie. That's the problem with fiction and there is no way to get out of this problem.
This is why at the very least FFG tends to be a good point to go off. It's still arbitrary game mechanics, but at least they're consistent. Compared to Tal moving 666 feet per second.
There is a million of them. Some are probably unlucky and not very good (compared to other Space Marine). This isn't exclusive to marines. Orks, eldars, even SoB and guardsmen seems to vary tremendously in powers, skills and abilitie. That's the problem with fiction and there is no way to get out of this problem.
Hahahahah. Crappy Space Marines. Not only does your comment provide a certain logic, but its damn funny as well.
I can see individual vary greatly of any race. Plus many are just glorified bags of meat, blood and bone in a war-zone just waiting to be shot to advance the plot and give the protagonists someone to miss both IRL and in fluff.
I personally think that the Space Marines dying early and often for rather stupid reasons often were young Asartes, but your argument makes sense as well as not every Space Marine can be created equal.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Blinking is a reflex action. We are talking about the same thing. They can hit up to three times faster than your brain can prossess information. I have added some details in that post you might want to read it again for more information.
Yes. That's punching. I'm talking about moving over ten feet in around fifteen milliseconds so to the observer it looks like the dude is teleporting.
That's 45m/h. I can track a bike moving at 60, so I'm pretty sure I can see a giant man moving at 45.
Beaviz81 wrote: Try being in a fight and keep track at stuff. Thats really hard. Adrenaline pumping and everything.
Not being able to keep track of is not appearing to teleport. Regular humans can easily be lost track of. And it will probably be easier to keep track of a marine, considering their size.
Faster than regular humans, I'm sure. A top running speed of 45m/h would a very impressive feat (the fastest human was only 28 m/h, and that's a 100ft sprinter).
Now close combat is a different matter entirely. I took aikido for a while (the only reason I stopped is that I'm in college), and I can go from in front of someone to behind them in a second, maybe less. But much of that speed has to do with moving correctly, not how fast they can move.
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Ashiraya wrote: Can you track Talos Valcoran running at 180 times the speed of sound?
You mean 222,480 km/h? Not even space marines could track that. The only possible way is if it were a vehicle of some sort a distance away.
And I think that can be put in the ridiculous pile. He'd probably burn up.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Blinking is a reflex action. We are talking about the same thing. They can hit up to three times faster than your brain can prossess information. I have added some details in that post you might want to read it again for more information.
Yes. That's punching. I'm talking about moving over ten feet in around fifteen milliseconds so to the observer it looks like the dude is teleporting.
That's 45m/h. I can track a bike moving at 60, so I'm pretty sure I can see a giant man moving at 45.
Uh. No, you forgot to carry a decimal. It's 454 miles per hour, and he accelerated instantly.
So yeah. That's outlandishly fast. While it's certainly not a precise number, just a ballpark, it's absurd.
Beaviz81 wrote: Try being in a fight and keep track at stuff. Thats really hard. Adrenaline pumping and everything.
Not being able to keep track of is not appearing to teleport. Regular humans can easily be lost track of. And it will probably be easier to keep track of a marine, considering their size.
Faster than regular humans, I'm sure. A top running speed of 45m/h would a very impressive feat (the fastest human was only 28 m/h, and that's a 100ft sprinter).
Now close combat is a different matter entirely. I took aikido for a while (the only reason I stopped is that I'm in college), and I can go from in front of someone to behind them in a second, maybe less. But much of that speed has to do with moving correctly, not how fast they can move.
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Ashiraya wrote: Can you track Talos Valcoran running at 180 times the speed of sound?
You mean 222,480 km/h? Not even space marines could track that. The only possible way is if it were a vehicle of some sort a distance away.
And I think that can be put in the ridiculous pile. He'd probably burn up.
According to the Rogue Trader RPG a Space Marine could reach over 200 kmph in a sprint so think more Hayabusa and less human athlete.
If you start to use description by an author of Black Library, no matter how good they are, to calculate the speed of a dashing Space Marine with precision, you are clearly mistaken. With that kind of logic, you might as well become a Young Earth Creationist and calculate the speed of the Flood water ejection out of the ground, the raw strength of Samson or how much poo Noah had to shovle up the only window of the Ark per day. Black Library, unlike those of the Bible, are using literary language to make their stuff more engaging and spectacular.
If you want to take something more «reliable» yet not too reliable you can use the game mechanic of FF games or even 40K rules. Both tell the same story. Space Marine are fast, but not inhumanly fast. The fastest, quickest and sharpest human can be just has fast if not more than an average Space Marine, but the heroic Space Marine will always have a little edge on them yet they are all slow compared to eldars.
The number of stories describing ork nobz and warbosses smashing Space Marines asside like puppets even in their full gear seems to demonstrate that they don't need numbers to kill you. Shure they will use it, but it's not always necessary. Ghazkull was much slower than Belial, but it's Belial and it's entire command squad who got smashed asside like toys by the Warboss and they had terminator plates which are far better than ork mega-armor. This seems to demonstrate that the Space Marine superiority is paper thin when it comes to combat and can be explain by their tactical acumen and superior tech.
In fairness, the reason Ghazghkull can do that might be less to do with orks being the physical equivalent of SM (though, in the case of the larger ones, there's a debate to be had here) than with the fact that he's as big as a bloody building and even Belial can't reasonably expect to be able to stop all that mass charging at him.
Anything that has space marines running over 50 m/h, goes in my ludicrous pile. Even 50 is pushing it. 30 is about right, it's freakishly fast for a bi-ped. Especially since eldar are supposed to be even faster.
Oh, and the fastest airplane only goes to aprox. mach 20 (13,201 k/h).
Co'tor Shas wrote: Anything that has space marines running over 50 m/h, goes in my ludicrous pile. Even 50 is pushing it. 30 is about right, it's freakishly fast for a bi-ped. Especially since eldar are supposed to be even faster.
Huehuehue
There's also the time that people dodge lasers....
Co'tor Shas wrote: Anything that has space marines running over 50 m/h, goes in my ludicrous pile. Even 50 is pushing it. 30 is about right, it's freakishly fast for a bi-ped. Especially since eldar are supposed to be even faster.
Huehuehue
There's also the time that people dodge lasers....
Co'tor Shas wrote: Anything that has space marines running over 50 m/h, goes in my ludicrous pile. Even 50 is pushing it. 30 is about right, it's freakishly fast for a bi-ped. Especially since eldar are supposed to be even faster.
Huehuehue
There's also the time that people dodge lasers....
Try dodging a bullet.
Well if they can most faster then light, bullets are easy.
The doging laser thing (IMO) is more reasonable. Keep moving so when they fire, you aren't there, same with bullets. A 5.56×45mm NATO round has a speed of upwards of 900m/s. You can't dodge that like you can dodge an arrow or a spear.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The doging laser thing (IMO) is more reasonable. Keep moving so when they fire, you aren't there, same with bullets. A 5.56×45mm NATO round has a speed of upwards of 900m/s. You can't dodge that like you can dodge an arrow or a spear.
No. I mean that they moved after the laser was fired or deflected it.
Hence the joke of "FTL marines". I wonder how much heat would be generated from moving in the air that fast.
In terms of actual stats:
Able to keep up a running speed of 30mph. 40mph in short bursts.
According to Deathwatch a deadlift of 2500lbs without armor. So a bench of anywhere between 1500 and 1800.
Able to mulch people with punches. I don't know about turning them into mist. More like "Your torso is know in 3 pieces from one punch to the ribs.
Basically an Ork Nob that's way better with weapons, faster, and possibly even harder to injure.
Reminds me they did a test at Mythbursters with the Ring of the Phantom. Punching so hard you left a mark required the Strength of Space Marines and you would have another problem with just jaw being broken.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The doging laser thing (IMO) is more reasonable. Keep moving so when they fire, you aren't there, same with bullets. A 5.56×45mm NATO round has a speed of upwards of 900m/s. You can't dodge that like you can dodge an arrow or a spear.
No. I mean that they moved after the laser was fired or deflected it.
Hence the joke of "FTL marines". I wonder how much heat would be generated from moving in the air that fast.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The doging laser thing (IMO) is more reasonable. Keep moving so when they fire, you aren't there, same with bullets. A 5.56×45mm NATO round has a speed of upwards of 900m/s. You can't dodge that like you can dodge an arrow or a spear.
No. I mean that they moved after the laser was fired or deflected it.
Hence the joke of "FTL marines". I wonder how much heat would be generated from moving in the air that fast.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The doging laser thing (IMO) is more reasonable. Keep moving so when they fire, you aren't there, same with bullets. A 5.56×45mm NATO round has a speed of upwards of 900m/s. You can't dodge that like you can dodge an arrow or a spear.
No. I mean that they moved after the laser was fired or deflected it.
Hence the joke of "FTL marines". I wonder how much heat would be generated from moving in the air that fast.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Blinking is a reflex action. We are talking about the same thing. They can hit up to three times faster than your brain can prossess information. I have added some details in that post you might want to read it again for more information.
Yes. That's punching. I'm talking about moving over ten feet in around fifteen milliseconds so to the observer it looks like the dude is teleporting.
That's 45m/h. I can track a bike moving at 60, so I'm pretty sure I can see a giant man moving at 45.
Do you have any idea how fast that is? For an human being to move at forty miles an hour for ten feet, he would be almost teleporting. You can track a bike moving sixty, aye, but that's because you have the hundreds of meters to watch it go, not ten feet, aka 3.3 meters
No. I mean that they moved after the laser was fired or deflected it.
Hence the joke of "FTL marines". I wonder how much heat would be generated from moving in the air that fast.
Wha? How? How do you see a laser-beam coming? It's a frikkin' lightbeam, it moves at the speed of light. If you see it, it's already hit you, even if your nervous system processes information instantaneously.
And then Warbosses get their heads lobbed off and taken as trophies by Comissars.
I know some Space Marine who also end up dead against the same comissars. Even great ones in armor and full gear.
Blinking is a reflex action. We are talking about the same thing. They can hit up to three times faster than your brain can prossess information. I have added some details in that post you might want to read it again for more information.
Yes. That's punching. I'm talking about moving over ten feet in around fifteen milliseconds so to the observer it looks like the dude is teleporting.
That's 45m/h. I can track a bike moving at 60, so I'm pretty sure I can see a giant man moving at 45.
Do you have any idea how fast that is? For an human being to move at forty miles an hour for ten feet, he would be almost teleporting. You can track a bike moving sixty, aye, but that's because you have the hundreds of meters to watch it go, not ten feet, aka 3.3 meters
Yes, as a matter a fact I do. 45 is fast, but not so fast that it is impossible to track. React to, probably not. It would seem really fast, but it certainly wouldn't seem like teleportation.
No. I mean that they moved after the laser was fired or deflected it.
Hence the joke of "FTL marines". I wonder how much heat would be generated from moving in the air that fast.
Wha? How? How do you see a laser-beam coming? It's a frikkin' lightbeam, it moves at the speed of light. If you see it, it's already hit you, even if your nervous system processes information instantaneously.
Easy. You can see where the guy is aiming the laser, and either move out of his aim or move your Power Sword in front of where the shot will hit before the shot is fired. Being Marines, they can move faster than humans, Orks, Necrons or Tau can react, so by the time the shooter realises the Astartes has moved, they are already pressing the trigger.
Considering their extremely potent stomach acids and saliva, I doubt they actually do so at all. I wouldn't be surprised if an Astartes GI tract resembled something more like a chemical fire where virtually everything is processed.
Also, we in the modern day have figured out how to safely extract and make water from dung, or food.
Extracting energy from tough, fibrous sources like grass and wood isn't about the potency of the acid but the cooking time, as it were. That's why herbivores often have multiple stomachs (such as cows) or partially digest it then eat it again once it has already passed through to get the remaining nutrients out (such as Rabbits), not to mention massive intestines. This all makes digestion a long time. It's like making a stew, you keep it simmering for a long time so it's all nice and tender.
Pure carnivores, on the other hand, typically have very strong stomach acid and a faster digestive system. To carry on the cooking analogy it's like frying a steak. Meat is much easier to break down than vegetation.
Omnivores like humans have stomach acids with strengths in between carnivores and herbivores and stomach/intestines smaller than a pure herbivore but larger than a pure carnivore.
Didn't Lysander punch his way out of the Iron Warrior's planet of Malodrax? He was naked and punched his way through a legion of Iron Warriors to get a shuttle and escape.
On Fenris, the wolf priest would go down into the villages to recruit. I don't think it says it explicitly, but it definitely gave the impression that they did so without their power armor (the fluff is presented from the perspective of the Fenrisian villagers, and they are described as huge warriors with no references to their technology).
Of course, they then out wrestle and out drink the villages strongest warriors, who they then recruit to become space wolves.
odinsgrandson wrote: On Fenris, the wolf priest would go down into the villages to recruit. I don't think it says it explicitly, but it definitely gave the impression that they did so without their power armor (the fluff is presented from the perspective of the Fenrisian villagers, and they are described as huge warriors with no references to their technology).
Of course, they then out wrestle and out drink the villages strongest warriors, who they then recruit to become space wolves.
Yes, but you'll notice they only ever pick adolescents, who have become adults by Fenrisian standards, but are probably only like twelve standard years old.
Co'tor Shas wrote: On the speed thing again, rhino's only go 70 k/h on road (43.5 m/h).
and Space Marines can run faster than that, why do they even use ground transports when they can run as fast as racecars?
Because it's meant for armor, not speed. Even if it gets blown up or shot to hell, it's still more protection than running face first. Also, since when can Space Marines run as fast as race cars? Maybe in sprints, but not over long distances
Beaviz81 wrote: Try being in a fight and keep track at stuff. Thats really hard. Adrenaline pumping and everything.
Not being able to keep track of is not appearing to teleport. Regular humans can easily be lost track of. And it will probably be easier to keep track of a marine, considering their size.
Faster than regular humans, I'm sure. A top running speed of 45m/h would a very impressive feat (the fastest human was only 28 m/h, and that's a 100ft sprinter).
Now close combat is a different matter entirely. I took aikido for a while (the only reason I stopped is that I'm in college), and I can go from in front of someone to behind them in a second, maybe less. But much of that speed has to do with moving correctly, not how fast they can move.
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Ashiraya wrote: Can you track Talos Valcoran running at 180 times the speed of sound?
You mean 222,480 km/h? Not even space marines could track that. The only possible way is if it were a vehicle of some sort a distance away.
And I think that can be put in the ridiculous pile. He'd probably burn up.
According to the Rogue Trader RPG a Space Marine could reach over 200 kmph in a sprint so think more Hayabusa and less human athlete.
You can do all sorts of things with FFGRPG's, and get character movement, even for non-SM characters, up to absolutely absurd levels, enough so that in some cases it becomes impossible to retain a character on an average game table if playing stuff out on a large game mat for more than a turn or two.
Overall, on the speed issue, I don't think we've ever seen anything on Space Marines outrunning motor vehicles on foot (and without jump packs) unless I'm missing something? and especially not over long distances. Anything will get tired eventually, particularly if being stressed (in a biological sense).
By the same token, that just made me think of something. The caloric requirements of a Space Marine would be....mind boggling Some high end human athletes consume 10,000 or more calories a day. Something the size and bulk of a bear, with all sorts of extra organs that do incredible things, constantly engaging in stressful physical activity of both incredible endurance and intensity, a 45,000 calorie diet (roughly equivalent to eating 100 big macs a day) or even more wouldn't be implausible. Even though able to eat all sorts of otherwise inedible things, food for a Space Marine could quickly become and issue, to say nothing of the time requirement simply for feeding and excreting.
Ashiraya wrote: Space Marines don't really get tired, though.
Astartes do tire, however it takes around twenty four hours or more of constant, non-stop fighting for them to begin to lock up from lactic buildup in their muscles.
Beaviz81 wrote: Try being in a fight and keep track at stuff. Thats really hard. Adrenaline pumping and everything.
Not being able to keep track of is not appearing to teleport. Regular humans can easily be lost track of. And it will probably be easier to keep track of a marine, considering their size.
Faster than regular humans, I'm sure. A top running speed of 45m/h would a very impressive feat (the fastest human was only 28 m/h, and that's a 100ft sprinter).
Now close combat is a different matter entirely. I took aikido for a while (the only reason I stopped is that I'm in college), and I can go from in front of someone to behind them in a second, maybe less. But much of that speed has to do with moving correctly, not how fast they can move.
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Ashiraya wrote: Can you track Talos Valcoran running at 180 times the speed of sound?
You mean 222,480 km/h? Not even space marines could track that. The only possible way is if it were a vehicle of some sort a distance away.
And I think that can be put in the ridiculous pile. He'd probably burn up.
According to the Rogue Trader RPG a Space Marine could reach over 200 kmph in a sprint so think more Hayabusa and less human athlete.
You can do all sorts of things with FFGRPG's, and get character movement, even for non-SM characters, up to absolutely absurd levels, enough so that in some cases it becomes impossible to retain a character on an average game table if playing stuff out on a large game mat for more than a turn or two.
Overall, on the speed issue, I don't think we've ever seen anything on Space Marines outrunning motor vehicles on foot (and without jump packs) unless I'm missing something? and especially not over long distances. Anything will get tired eventually, particularly if being stressed (in a biological sense).
By the same token, that just made me think of something. The caloric requirements of a Space Marine would be....mind boggling Some high end human athletes consume 10,000 or more calories a day. Something the size and bulk of a bear, with all sorts of extra organs that do incredible things, constantly engaging in stressful physical activity of both incredible endurance and intensity, a 45,000 calorie diet (roughly equivalent to eating 100 big macs a day) or even more wouldn't be implausible. Even though able to eat all sorts of otherwise inedible things, food for a Space Marine could quickly become and issue, to say nothing of the time requirement simply for feeding and excreting.
Ashiraya wrote: Space Marines don't really get tired, though.
Astartes do tire, however it takes around twenty four hours or more of constant, non-stop fighting for them to begin to lock up from lactic buildup in their muscles.
Yes, well, they do tire, but not fast.
Hey Vaktathi, wanna see my Salamander character who can leap 23 meters?
Or my friend heavy weapon guy who took out a Deff Dredd in a single volley.
Or for that matter, the stormtrooper that I play who can take out a NPC Space Marine in one burst. Or a Nob. In fact I can out damage a heavy bolter on a shot per shot basis if I roll half decently on my BS roll. Also makes most people unable to dodge my shots. Good times.
By the same token, that just made me think of something. The caloric requirements of a Space Marine would be....mind boggling Some high end human athletes consume 10,000 or more calories a day. Something the size and bulk of a bear, with all sorts of extra organs that do incredible things, constantly engaging in stressful physical activity of both incredible endurance and intensity, a 45,000 calorie diet (roughly equivalent to eating 100 big macs a day) or even more wouldn't be implausible. Even though able to eat all sorts of otherwise inedible things, food for a Space Marine could quickly become and issue, to say nothing of the time requirement simply for feeding and excreting.
Space Marines don't have excrement. The acid in their stomachs breaks down food entirely so that they can take all of the energy out of food, which also allows them to break down things like lumps of coal and leaves. Also, Space Marines have been enhanced to the point that they really don't need too much food, they can go months or years without food, and weeks without water.
Yeah, how does that work? Unless a good potion of their body is blubber, I don't see that working. You can only break down food so much, and you need food. That's not something you can get around. Liquids are a bit easier, with the recycler, but you will run out eventually.
By the same token, that just made me think of something. The caloric requirements of a Space Marine would be....mind boggling Some high end human athletes consume 10,000 or more calories a day. Something the size and bulk of a bear, with all sorts of extra organs that do incredible things, constantly engaging in stressful physical activity of both incredible endurance and intensity, a 45,000 calorie diet (roughly equivalent to eating 100 big macs a day) or even more wouldn't be implausible. Even though able to eat all sorts of otherwise inedible things, food for a Space Marine could quickly become and issue, to say nothing of the time requirement simply for feeding and excreting.
Space Marines don't have excrement. The acid in their stomachs breaks down food entirely so that they can take all of the energy out of food, which also allows them to break down things like lumps of coal and leaves. Also, Space Marines have been enhanced to the point that they really don't need too much food, they can go months or years without food, and weeks without water.
Cows break down leaves. Breaking down leaves makes a lot of waste products, as they are so tough to break down.
As to breaking down Coal, into what? It has no calorific value. The only way they could get energy from eating coal is if their stomach also part-times as a coal-burning power station.
Then we get to the fact that it is impossible to extract 100% of the energy from any energy source. So Space Marines will still produce waste.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Yeah, how does that work? Unless a good potion of their body is blubber, I don't see that working. You can only break down food so much, and you need food. That's not something you can get around. Liquids are a bit easier, with the recycler, but you will run out eventually.
Humans are incapable of breaking down their foods entirely, and some portions (cellulose AKA plant cells AKA fibre) isn't toucjed at all. There'll be proteins and vitamins that the human body can't deal with that the Astartes stomach will, also considering they have a pre-stomach to break down otherwise inedible materials. Plus they can ingest poisons. Its just a more efficient dogestive system.
Their system also means they can store more energy in their cells and blood, and they have a richer, more energy-full bloodstream. They could ignore the psychological effects of hunger, being Space Marines, would be just beaten out of them. And given they are so built and trained it would take longer for the physical reactions to overtake their willpower and stamina. Plus, there is plenty of meat on them for their body to cannibalise to stay alive, either at a cellular level (stripping back muscle cells to feed the major organs) or literally eating their own arm or something.
By the same token, that just made me think of something. The caloric requirements of a Space Marine would be....mind boggling Some high end human athletes consume 10,000 or more calories a day. Something the size and bulk of a bear, with all sorts of extra organs that do incredible things, constantly engaging in stressful physical activity of both incredible endurance and intensity, a 45,000 calorie diet (roughly equivalent to eating 100 big macs a day) or even more wouldn't be implausible. Even though able to eat all sorts of otherwise inedible things, food for a Space Marine could quickly become and issue, to say nothing of the time requirement simply for feeding and excreting.
Space Marines don't have excrement. The acid in their stomachs breaks down food entirely so that they can take all of the energy out of food, which also allows them to break down things like lumps of coal and leaves. Also, Space Marines have been enhanced to the point that they really don't need too much food, they can go months or years without food, and weeks without water.
Cows break down leaves. Breaking down leaves makes a lot of waste products, as they are so tough to break down.
As to breaking down Coal, into what? It has no calorific value. The only way they could get energy from eating coal is if their stomach also part-times as a coal-burning power station.
Then we get to the fact that it is impossible to extract 100% of the energy from any energy source. So Space Marines will still produce waste.
Coal is made of carbon. Carbon is a mineral. Coal is also a major source of chemical energy like food. Its entirely possible in this fictional superhuman body bio-engineered by a living god that can do all the things it can do, has the ability to get some energy from coal, or create a chemical reaction that creates usable compounds.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Yeah, how does that work? Unless a good potion of their body is blubber, I don't see that working. You can only break down food so much, and you need food. That's not something you can get around. Liquids are a bit easier, with the recycler, but you will run out eventually.
Humans are incapable of breaking down their foods entirely, and some portions (cellulose AKA plant cells AKA fibre) isn't toucjed at all. There'll be proteins and vitamins that the human body can't deal with that the Astartes stomach will, also considering they have a pre-stomach to break down otherwise inedible materials. Plus they can ingest poisons. Its just a more efficient dogestive system.
Their system also means they can store more energy in their cells and blood, and they have a richer, more energy-full bloodstream. They could ignore the psychological effects of hunger, being Space Marines, would be just beaten out of them. And given they are so built and trained it would take longer for the physical reactions to overtake their willpower and stamina. Plus, there is plenty of meat on them for their body to cannibalise to stay alive, either at a cellular level (stripping back muscle cells to feed the major organs) or literally eating their own arm or something.
I'd say they could last longer, but after about a month of not eating, they would be so emaciated to barely be able to move.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Then we get to the fact that it is impossible to extract 100% of the energy from any energy source. So Space Marines will still produce waste.
It is also impossible to gain someone else's memories by eating their brain, and yet Astartes can do exactly that.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I thought it was just genetic information, not actual memories?
Well the first time I read about it actually being used the marine gained the knowledge to operate Tau vehicles. That can't be genetic information, that must be actual memories right?
Co'tor Shas wrote: Yeah, how does that work? Unless a good potion of their body is blubber, I don't see that working. You can only break down food so much, and you need food. That's not something you can get around. Liquids are a bit easier, with the recycler, but you will run out eventually.
Humans are incapable of breaking down their foods entirely, and some portions (cellulose AKA plant cells AKA fibre) isn't toucjed at all. There'll be proteins and vitamins that the human body can't deal with that the Astartes stomach will, also considering they have a pre-stomach to break down otherwise inedible materials. Plus they can ingest poisons. Its just a more efficient dogestive system.
Their system also means they can store more energy in their cells and blood, and they have a richer, more energy-full bloodstream. They could ignore the psychological effects of hunger, being Space Marines, would be just beaten out of them. And given they are so built and trained it would take longer for the physical reactions to overtake their willpower and stamina. Plus, there is plenty of meat on them for their body to cannibalise to stay alive, either at a cellular level (stripping back muscle cells to feed the major organs) or literally eating their own arm or something.
I'd say they could last longer, but after about a month of not eating, they would be so emaciated to barely be able to move.
The fluff says they can go months. Whether that means 2 months or 6, but regular humans can go a month without food and not become inanimate.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Yeah, how does that work? Unless a good potion of their body is blubber, I don't see that working. You can only break down food so much, and you need food. That's not something you can get around. Liquids are a bit easier, with the recycler, but you will run out eventually.
Humans are incapable of breaking down their foods entirely, and some portions (cellulose AKA plant cells AKA fibre) isn't toucjed at all. There'll be proteins and vitamins that the human body can't deal with that the Astartes stomach will, also considering they have a pre-stomach to break down otherwise inedible materials. Plus they can ingest poisons. Its just a more efficient dogestive system.
Their system also means they can store more energy in their cells and blood, and they have a richer, more energy-full bloodstream. They could ignore the psychological effects of hunger, being Space Marines, would be just beaten out of them. And given they are so built and trained it would take longer for the physical reactions to overtake their willpower and stamina. Plus, there is plenty of meat on them for their body to cannibalise to stay alive, either at a cellular level (stripping back muscle cells to feed the major organs) or literally eating their own arm or something.
I'd say they could last longer, but after about a month of not eating, they would be so emaciated to barely be able to move.
The fluff says they can go months. Whether that means 2 months or 6, but regular humans can go a month without food and not become inanimate.
Ordinary humans can go a maximum of 3 months without food should they be well-nourished. Or at least, that's the highest ive heard of.
Considering their extremely potent stomach acids and saliva, I doubt they actually do so at all. I wouldn't be surprised if an Astartes GI tract resembled something more like a chemical fire where virtually everything is processed.
Also, we in the modern day have figured out how to safely extract and make water from dung, or food.
Extracting energy from tough, fibrous sources like grass and wood isn't about the potency of the acid but the cooking time, as it were. That's why herbivores often have multiple stomachs (such as cows) or partially digest it then eat it again once it has already passed through to get the remaining nutrients out (such as Rabbits), not to mention massive intestines. This all makes digestion a long time. It's like making a stew, you keep it simmering for a long time so it's all nice and tender.
Pure carnivores, on the other hand, typically have very strong stomach acid and a faster digestive system. To carry on the cooking analogy it's like frying a steak. Meat is much easier to break down than vegetation.
Omnivores like humans have stomach acids with strengths in between carnivores and herbivores and stomach/intestines smaller than a pure herbivore but larger than a pure carnivore.
Humans could digest fiber if we had the proper digestive enzymes or bacteria to provide those enzymes. Astartes could easily have those enzymes added as part of their genetic alteration. Relatively speaking, it would be a simple change.
As it is, we can't digest fiber at all. If we could, it would give us a greater source of energy. Even if we could only partially digest it.
By the same token, that just made me think of something. The caloric requirements of a Space Marine would be....mind boggling Some high end human athletes consume 10,000 or more calories a day. Something the size and bulk of a bear, with all sorts of extra organs that do incredible things, constantly engaging in stressful physical activity of both incredible endurance and intensity, a 45,000 calorie diet (roughly equivalent to eating 100 big macs a day) or even more wouldn't be implausible. Even though able to eat all sorts of otherwise inedible things, food for a Space Marine could quickly become and issue, to say nothing of the time requirement simply for feeding and excreting.
Space Marines don't have excrement. The acid in their stomachs breaks down food entirely so that they can take all of the energy out of food, which also allows them to break down things like lumps of coal and leaves. Also, Space Marines have been enhanced to the point that they really don't need too much food, they can go months or years without food, and weeks without water.
Where does that come from? I know they have the Preomnor allowing them to eat lots of stuff that otherwise wouldn't be edible, but IIRC there's nothing stating they don't poop, or that they can derive energy from literally anything.
Three week old rotted roadkill? Sure. Poisonous mushrooms that would kill an ordinary person? Sure. Alien biology that would just make an ordinary human vomit? Ok.
Being able to simply assimilate any form of carbon? Hrm...
Besides, there's all sorts of things that would need to....pass. A Space Marine isn't going to get energy from all that sand and grit or mud stuck all over the roadkill he just ate, that's gotta leave somehow.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Then we get to the fact that it is impossible to extract 100% of the energy from any energy source. So Space Marines will still produce waste.
It is also impossible to gain someone else's memories by eating their brain, and yet Astartes can do exactly that.
Yeah, that's a thing I think they thought sounded really cool in like 1987, and then someone mentioned that if you break apart and chew and expose brain matter to all sorts of physical trauma, the information is physically permanently destroyed and the neural links obliteratred, and after that it only very rarely gets mentioned, I can only think of a couple of stories where they use it.
My Raven Guard has 74 agility, which alone makes for a 7x6 = 42 meter run move. It becomes 48 meters because he is Hulking in PA. With Sprint (bionic heart) he can run 96 meters in 5 seconds. That is about 70 kph.
There's some truly absurd things you can make happen with RPG rules.
Agreed. Just look at it.
Bobthehero wrote: Or my friend heavy weapon guy who took out a Deff Dredd in a single volley.
Or for that matter, the stormtrooper that I play who can take out a NPC Space Marine in one burst. Or a Nob. In fact I can out damage a heavy bolter on a shot per shot basis if I roll half decently on my BS roll. Also makes most people unable to dodge my shots. Good times.
Essentially, strip him down to his boxer shorts, leave all the organs there, how effective would he be without the technology behind him? Could he function or is the black carapace as vital to his function as his own skin?
I'm a little light on info here and was just curious!
Basically I wondered if a marine was captured, sent to Commoragh and stripped of everything he externally had, could he still walk around and kick arse? I don't doubt that he'd still be man+, though am curious about how vital those components are in his ability to, for instance, arm wrestle (just to give a simple.example)
Thanks!
The black carapace is one of the 19 additional organs that each marine is implanted with. The carapace is the bio-interface for the power armour, but once it is implanted then there is no removing it without killing the marine. One of the Salamander novels actually has them on Commoragh after their power armour has been so damaged that it is more of a handicap then it is a benefit and they still kill a ton of Dark Eldar.
Simply put, they are just as deadly without it, but the power armour makes them be able to survive almost anything.
) , then they could dig a hole and stack the bricks/ build fortifications from them... 
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