For starters, here's the list I ran. I had my librarius conclave and one of each of these squad, no extra models, just listed upgrades

Ezekiel and 2 librarians in a rhino with a command squad (apothecary and 2 plasma)
Deathwing Knights
Deathwing w/ assault cannon
Scout snipers
Tactical with plasma
Ravenwing w/ plasma and melta bomb
Black Knights w/ sword and melta bomb
Dev squad w/ 2 las

Just double checking, none of that is cheese? The only thing I could possibly understand is the conclave, but I'm getting one extra librarian out of the deal. It's designed to be my TAC list, and is mediocre at that task.

When I rolled for warlord trait, I got the ability that lets me infiltrate my hq and 3 non-vehicle units. I chose two bikes squads to infiltrate, and the terminators to DS. I also got 1st deployment.

He was running tau.... longstrike, a riptide, some kind of flyer, broadsides, a crisis commander, some fire warriors.... the game didn't run long enough for me to look at everything. But he packed it all into one corner of the board, opposite the side that I had put my devastators and ezekiel.

Using the infiltrate, I put my bikes 18" away from him, one along the table edge and one in the opposite end of his deployment zone, then scouted them 12" towards his stuff. Turn 1 I get my DS, drop the terminators about 3 inches from his front line. Start to move the bikes and he forfeits.

First off, everything I did is perfectly legal, right? I ran it past some other guys and they didn't see any faults in it. Second, what I did could have been countered, right? I mean, start of his turn his entire army would have shot up those 4 units, at least. And all the suits and longstrike could at least make it almost out of charge range? The only thing that would have survived until turn 2 to charge would have been the knights, meaning I would have already lost a third of my army at least.

Can you even blame the warlord trait either? Without it my termies would have just dropped 6" away from you instead of 3"

Please, anyone, explain to me why an opponent would do this. I just need some way to wrap my mind around what happened. This is definitely going to put me off from playing 40k for awhile. I've been kind. I've been forgiving. It's the same opponent that I've mentioned in two other posts, and I should have listened when everyone said not to play him. I just feel legitimately guilty that an opponent got mad at me. Did I do something wrong? Am I a bad person? I feel terrible

I don't see anything wrong with this. Best I can figure he realized he might actually get into close combat and not have an easy victory.

Interesting, my friend who plays GK recently did a similar alpha strike move where he used interceptors and Dreadknights to cage in the Tau player's forces and although he didn't forfeit immediately like your opponent he got pretty upset quickly and gave up after his army failed to do much in his first turn.

Honestly, it's probably because as a Tau player you want to be the one dictating the flow of the battlefield and for many once you get as close as you do they think the game is over for them. The army and a lot of their lists are written in such a way that they don't count for your opponent using or getting things like infiltrate properly or other early "up in your face" tactics.

Don't feel bad about it, especially given that you were playing Dark Angels of all armies and they're definitely not one that exactly inspires fear or dread as a powergamer army.

You played the game right and to your strengths, the fact that he's willing to give up so quickly gives a hint of what he's expecting or hoping for a game, most likely a curbstomp in his favour.

He likely needs to learn how to adapt to unexpected situations in game, and while I understand that is often an acquired trait, its one that is nonetheless worth learning even if you lose quite a few games in the process. As they say: "No pain, no gain".

The warlord trait is extremely powerful in that situation, but not a "quit turn 1" advantage by any means.

I would count that as a crushing victory, and rub it in from time to time. Good for you to be able to rock an opponent so hard they run away in fear of their impending doom.

Stuff you did was perfectly fine. And it's easilly counterable by proper deployment. Castling is a loosing strategy since 7-th anywayz.

Why would you let the poor sportsmanship (and playing) of one player, turn you off from 40k? Just play with better people.

Get a "I forfeited to Dark Angels" tshirt and make him wear it.
Never play him again otherwise.

Sounds like just a sore loser. If he'd not castled up in the corner he would have had a chance. Sounds like he's had too many easy curbstomps.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Get a "I forfeited to Dark Angels" tshirt and make him wear it.
Never play him again otherwise.

This just made my night

Also, he's currently one of the only people I can play. When the weather gets bad like now not as many people make it out in the evenings as their drive might not be as easy as mine. Since he was the only 40k guy at the store tonight I figured hey, maybe he'll be reasonable for once.

I think I'm going to start playing with the heroclix guys on Tuesday nights.....


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Actually, now I'm starting to wonder, is my army actually that looked down upon? We can be competitive too ya know

 Grimskul wrote:
Interesting, my friend who plays GK recently did a similar alpha strike move where he used interceptors and Dreadknights to cage in the Tau player's forces and although he didn't forfeit immediately like your opponent he got pretty upset quickly and gave up after his army failed to do much in his first turn.

That's my favorite tactic, it ignores the EWO entirely and is the reason why GK have a chance against them, gotta move fast if I want to kill that Riptide before my Stormraven comes on T2, of course this type of list for Tau isn't very fun to play against. But OP you played perfectly to the Tau weakness, closing the gap quickly with no losses; you didn't let him dictate the game like Tau are used to doing he probably is so used to not being in CC and not experiencing it himself that he thought that it was gg at that point, congrats you won the psychological warfare aspect and instead of playing the game out, forfeited what most likely would have been a decent game.

It honestly isn't your fault, I dunno what his problem is because if he does have those units in his list he wasn't playing hardball and neither were you, soooo I guess he is just inexperienced and he just needs to mature?

EDIT: Seeing that you were the one who started the Terrain thread, I would simply say he wanted a easy win and you putting the pressure on so early literally crumpled his will to fight.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Get a "I forfeited to Dark Angels" tshirt and make him wear it.
Never play him again otherwise.

This just made my night

Also, he's currently one of the only people I can play. When the weather gets bad like now not as many people make it out in the evenings as their drive might not be as easy as mine. Since he was the only 40k guy at the store tonight I figured hey, maybe he'll be reasonable for once.

I think I'm going to start playing with the heroclix guys on Tuesday nights.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, now I'm starting to wonder, is my army actually that looked down upon? We can be competitive too ya know

Well Dark Angels unfortunately follows the trend as the experimental pre-vanilla Space Marine codex where they find out the kinks and ideas that they'll do for the vanilla codex that is almost inevitably sometime afterwards their release. You can see it from how your relics and stuff like Grim Resolve or Inner Circle rules act as precursors to an unfortunately more popular and generally effective list of relics and chapter tactics.

Dark Angels can still pull off strong combos and units (especially with rad grenades from your Black Knights) but you guys miss out on proper air support and other goodies in the case you don't ally them in.

I think you did nothing wrong, as seeing as this guy is less than enjoyable to play against as stated in your other threads I think its pretty obvious he is the problem.

He had notice before deployment you were infiltrating, he ignored that fact and gave you the freedom to do what you did. Thats not cheesy or weak on your part, thats playing the game and taking advantage of your opponents mistakes. And thats how you win games and make them more enjoyable and entertaining.

I would just sugest not playing with him, but if you find yourself in the situation where he is the only option once again just stick it to him like this time!

Had a similar thing happen with me and a Orc player, where he was winning and I killed off his KFF and he quit...

Lame

 kingbobbito wrote:
Using the infiltrate, I put my bikes 18" away from him, one along the table edge and one in the opposite end of his deployment zone, then scouted them 12" towards his stuff.

This is the only problem. When you Scout re-deploy, you must remain at least 12" away from any enemy units. But even then that's not much of a difference to your scenario.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sounds like just a sore loser. If he'd not castled up in the corner he would have had a chance. Sounds like he's had too many easy curbstomps.

So what was he suppose to do spread? Tau aren't meq , just like IG, spread they die, they have a ton of support rules that work on a very short range.
I guess the dude didn't have enough plasma to kill 4 squads and didn't have enough riptides to tar pit them. And I doubt it is fun for a tau player to be stuck in constant melee for 3-4 turns, when your technicly rolling dice, but you know that your opponent has better stats and will win anyway.
Wasted time, don't see why quiting such a game would be a bad thing. I know he lost, his opponent knows he won, why play it , to roll dice?

Makumba wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sounds like just a sore loser. If he'd not castled up in the corner he would have had a chance. Sounds like he's had too many easy curbstomps.

So what was he suppose to do spread?

That would've been the smart thing to do instead of putting everything in one corner where he had no mobility, no ability to react, and gave his opponent no need to do anything except point all of his models at one spot.

Sitting in a corner against a high alpha strike army was asking for trouble, toss in Infiltrate and all of a sudden you're looking at 1 turn of movement before assault. It's part of 40k's nature rock paper scissor and Tau don't have any rocks or scissors. While every other army does.

When I rolled for warlord trait, I got the ability that lets me infiltrate my hq and 3 non-vehicle units. I chose two bikes squads to infiltrate, and the terminators to DS. I also got 1st deployment.

Do bikes not count as vehicles for the purposes of that ability? They are vehicles in the obvious sense of the word, it seems a bit like rule-lawyering to say they aren't.

That niggle aside, there isn't much you can do in that situation with Tau. You either need space or a single enemy unit as a target when you're playing them, because shooting is far less efficient at killing than melee is. No sweeping advances to mop up riddled units, no combat lock stop the enemy from interfering, cover saves everywhere and you generally can't make Marines run away with it. No deep masses of bodies and firepower for the Tau like the Guard have to compensate either.

The warlord trait essentially eliminated the possibility that he could win entirely. Your list is decent, but not entirely unbeatable even with his piss poor list. What should have been a decent game for both players was undone by you suddenly gaining the ability to drop troops that usually can't, deus ex machina style no less. That can be frustrating. Talk of deployment changes solving the problem is easier said than done. Spreading out against your list would have been equal parts boring and suicidal for different reasons, but mostly it comes down to the fact that any one of your units is better than any one of his except the Riptide, and the Riptide can't be everywhere at once. The bikes could have bypassed or smashed through any screening units while the Terminators caused havoc in the rear, and he would have been rendered combat ineffective in the exact same turn he would have in the castle situation; your second turn.

Maybe it doesn't excuse attitude, but withdrawing from that situation is hardly an illogical decision. Infiltrating the likes of bike squadrons in will generally mean a boring-as-gak curbstomp game for an opposing Tau player. Bikes are already annoying as hell when they're attacking from regular deployment zones.

They aren't a vehicle as described in the Rules, so it's fine to infiltrate them.

How do tau deal with turn 2 assaulters in general? There are plenty of such builds, really. CSM have those, White scars have those, Orks have those, etc. With positioning and shooting you to bits. How's it different from what the op had? I think you should blame the player - not the mismatch.

I have only forfeit, or seen forfeits, on turn one against people who have clearly tailored or the dice gods have effectively wrecked someone in turn 1, and both players agree to start over. Anything else is just being a sore loser, but your accounts thus far indicate you're dealing with some rather acute levels of WAAC. Especially against Dark Angels, dear god.

It seems pretty clear from your accounts that your Tau player isn't very good at the game; he's used to winning by codex and list, and while those are certainly the most important things these days in 40k, he's making amateur mistakes; castling against a small model count close-range army rather than spreading out to minimize targets for the small number of units you're fielding (not like Tau have to worry about being able to hit things), and just giving up without even trying smacks of poor sportsmanship. 40k takes forever to set up and get going, at least make the effort to shoot at the other guy; after all, you could roll nothing but 1s for saves and be killed off by two firewarrior squads.

They aren't a vehicle as described in the Rules, so it's fine to infiltrate them.

Again, sounds like rule-lawyering, but I suspect such an oversight in the Dark Angels codex is pretty much in line with how things are going these days. One way or another.

 koooaei wrote:
How do tau deal with turn 2 assaulters in general? There are plenty of such builds, really. CSM have those, White scars have those, Orks have those, etc. With positioning and shooting you to bits. How's it different from what the op had? I think you should blame the player - not the mismatch.

I blame both. His poor list combined with the game giving the OP a Deus Ex Machina ability as well as the dice gods allowing the Terminators in at the same moment. The latter two alone happening would have made the game boring even with a good list, unless you're one of the more masochistic players out there.

As for turn two assaulters, generally they don't arrive as three units at the same time from different directions. The OP would have been able to kill the entire Tau army over the course of a single assault. Those types of scenarios are generally the result of horrendous luck and bad game design, which happened here, exacerbated in this instance by a poor list. Otherwise, blocking/sacrificial unit + Supporting Fire + follow-up mass shooting is the standard response. There isn't enough Supporting Fire in any balanced Tau list to stop two bike squadrons and a Terminator Squad attacking in the same turn. One unit can block an entire group of units if they're deployed right. Hell, I've stopped two bike units with a single unit of Kroot before, and when the Kroot died, I turned their graves into a highly efficient biker-meat factory the next turn. That sort of tactic definitely wasn't a possibility here, and the Tau are very weak to that sort of assault in the first place.

Giving up when the game would be boring as hell is not poor sportsmanship. Doing so while whinging about it and not setting up another game probably is though. Would the OP have understood if he had been polite about it though, I wonder?

Bikes haven't been vehicles in 40k for at least several editions (if at all, though I'm not sure on that as I heard that they were in 2nd)

It's been accepted by the player base for just as long that they aren't.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
castling against a small model count close-range army rather than spreading out to minimize targets for the small number of units you're fielding (not like Tau have to worry about being able to hit things),

The Tau do have to worry about hitting things. BS3 pretty much across the board, markerlights aside.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

As for turn two assaulters, generally they don't arrive as three units at the same time from different directions.

But that's exactly how such lists work. I say it's not much difference from what's happened here.

Should you forfeit the moment you see a blitz brigade? Or a Huron + Cypher infiltration list? Or a bunch of marines in droppods?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Bikes haven't been vehicles in 40k for at least several editions (if at all, though I'm not sure on that as I heard that they were in 2nd)

It's been accepted by the player base for just as long that they aren't.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. They are vehicles, yet for the purposes of the rules, they're in a separate category, allowing them to infiltrate in this manner which is specifically not for vehicles. It's legal but still dodgy. Seems like an oversight or cheese to me.

Yeah from reading your other thread, all I have to say to the Tau guy.

 koooaei wrote:
How do tau deal with turn 2 assaulters in general? There are plenty of such builds, really. CSM have those, White scars have those, Orks have those, etc. With positioning and shooting you to bits. How's it different from what the op had? I think you should blame the player - not the mismatch.

They deal with it by support fire during overwatch. Tau are all about positioning the right units in the right spot

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Bikes haven't been vehicles in 40k for at least several editions (if at all, though I'm not sure on that as I heard that they were in 2nd)

It's been accepted by the player base for just as long that they aren't.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. They are vehicles, yet for the purposes of the rules, they're in a separate category, allowing them to infiltrate in this manner which is specifically not for vehicles. It's legal but still dodgy. Seems like an oversight or cheese to me.

On the other hand they're also susceptibile to weapons to which most vehicles wouldn't be very worried about.

 koooaei wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

As for turn two assaulters, generally they don't arrive as three units at the same time from different directions.

But that's exactly how such lists work. I say it's not much difference from what's happened here.

Should you forfeit the moment you see a blitz brigade? Or a Huron + Cypher infiltration list? Or a bunch of marines in droppods?

Such tactics are highly effective against the Tau, but it is possible to funnel them. Just not when we're talking about bikes. They're just too manoeuvrable on the first turn.

And this player didn't forfeit "the minute he saw the army", he forfeited after he received bodyblows from the dice gods allowing fast units to infiltrate and Terminators to arrive right on cue. Conceding defeat when it is utterly certain and there is nothing more to be gained is not some sort of insult. If anything, refusing to do so is a waste of gaming time that could be put into another match.

Castling means you can't really move at all. Against a force that's on you quickly, it can be a really bad way to go.

Warlord Trait is luck of the draw. Your opponent knew you had that trait before deployment. He failed to plan for it.

Scouting and Infiltrating are becoming more powerful tools in this edition. I use it as much as possible with my Orks. A couple of Infiltrating units of your own can quickly halt this.

Kroot still infiltrate, right? Two small units would have stalled the infiltrating advance straight away. If he had won the roll off for placing Infiltrators, then your bikes would end up practically back in your deployment zone. If he had failed the roll off, he could still have effected the placement of the second squad. You don't need these units to be effective, you need them to block deployment! In my Meta it's very rare to see a Tau gun line without infiltrating Kroot roadblocks.

 grendel083 wrote:
Castling means you can't really move at all. Against a force that's on you quickly, it can be a really bad way to go.

Warlord Trait is luck of the draw. Your opponent knew you had that trait before deployment. He failed to plan for it.

Scouting and Infiltrating are becoming more powerful tools in this edition. I use it as much as possible with my Orks. A couple of Infiltrating units of your own can quickly halt this.

Kroot still infiltrate, right? Two small units would have stalled the infiltrating advance straight away. If he had won the roll off for placing Infiltrators, then your bikes would end up practically back in your deployment zone. If he had failed the roll off, he could still have effected the placement of the second squad. You don't need these units to be effective, you need them to block deployment! In my Meta it's very rare to see a Tau gun line without infiltrating Kroot roadblocks.

Yeah, I've used Kroot in that way since the very beginning. Very effective.

Warlord traits that allow you to turn any particular list into a potential alpha strike army? Yeah, that's not on. Random rolling for it just makes it even more stupid.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Bikes haven't been vehicles in 40k for at least several editions (if at all, though I'm not sure on that as I heard that they were in 2nd)

It's been accepted by the player base for just as long that they aren't.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. They are vehicles, yet for the purposes of the rules, they're in a separate category, allowing them to infiltrate in this manner which is specifically not for vehicles. It's legal but still dodgy. Seems like an oversight or cheese to me.

Dude, that's not dodgy or an oversight at all. Bikes and Jetbikes are a kind of unit with a Toughness value. No vehicle has a Toughness value, while Bikes and Jetbikes don't possess any kind of Front, Side or Rear armour. There's no reason to rule them as 'vehicles' for infiltrate/scout purposes.

What the rules say are what you should use. Bikes and Jetbikes aren't vehicles by the rules. No reason to try to apply vehicles rules on them.
This is no oversight at all, as they had a Toughness value back in 5th, had it in 6th and in 7th remained as so.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
That's pretty much what I'm saying. They are vehicles, yet for the purposes of the rules, they're in a separate category, allowing them to infiltrate in this manner which is specifically not for vehicles. It's legal but still dodgy. Seems like an oversight or cheese to me.

Bikes are in no way vehicles.

Also bear in mind, this warlord trait if given to an Infantry unit, allows that unit to bring along their Dedicated Transport (as per the infiltrate rules themselves). 3 Infiltrating Ork Trukk mobs is a very common tactic. And they have much easier access to this trait thanks to one of their relics.

Turn 2 charges from several units is how Orks roll nowadays. People need to plan for that. As mentioned above, Kroot are excellent for this.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Dude, that's not dodgy or an oversight at all. Bikes and Jetbikes are a kind of unit with a Toughness value. No vehicle has a Toughness value, while Bikes and Jetbikes don't possess any kind of Front, Side or Rear armour. There's no reason to rule them as 'vehicles' for infiltrate/scout purposes.

What the rules say are what you should use. Bikes and Jetbikes aren't vehicles by the rules. No reason to try to apply vehicles rules on them.
This is no oversight at all, as they had a Toughness value back in 5th, had it in 6th and in 7th remained as so.

*facepalm*

It's an oversight or cheese that bikers would be allowed to infiltrate with the Dark Angels warlord trait, not that they're classed separately in general. Obviously they're not vehicles for rules purposes, I'm saying it's broken that they're not considered vehicles for the purposes of that trait.


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 grendel083 wrote:
Turn 2 charges from several units is how Orks roll nowadays. People need to plan for that. As mentioned above, Kroot are excellent for this.

Orks drop a lot easier than Space Marine bikers. A pulse rifle can take out an Ork trukk...

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
It's an oversight or cheese that bikers would be allowed to infiltrate with the Dark Angels warlord trait, not that they're classed separately in general. Obviously they're not vehicles for rules purposes, I'm saying it's broken that they're not considered vehicles for the purposes of that trait.

Ravenwing (And Whitescars?) can scout anyway, so can cover 36" in their first turn. So a Turn 2 charge is very possible without the trait.
Simply put, hiding in a corner behind an Aegis is easily countered in this edition. It's much more about mobility now. If you hadn't got any mobility, you need to take it away from your opponent

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
Orks drop a lot easier than Space Marine bikers. A pulse rifle can take out an Ork trukk...

True! But if that Trukk has had a single turn of movement, then it's done its job.
That will be 3 Trukks you need to kill, not that difficult, but now 3 mobs of Orks have got out and are in charge range. You might be able to destroy those too if you're lucky. That's only 300pts gone, and you haven't touched the rest of the force.

Pulse rifles also wounds bikes on a 4+, better than any other basic weapon.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Pulse rifles also wounds bikes on a 4+, better than any other basic weapon.

Dark eldar wave with their poisoned...everything. Everything except for witch blades. Cause feth witches.

How could I forget DE

Oh I know, I've never versed them, thanks to the most common armies here being various flavours of marines and tau

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Pulse rifles also wounds bikes on a 4+, better than any other basic weapon.

While that's true, the 3+ save more than compensates. Whereas trukks can be blown up for extra wounds on passengers, and Orks wear t-shirts.

Ravenwing (And Whitescars?) can scout anyway, so can cover 36" in their first turn. So a Turn 2 charge is very possible without the trait.
Simply put, hiding in a corner behind an Aegis is easily countered in this edition. It's much more about mobility now. If you hadn't got any mobility, you need to take it away from your opponent

Yeah, but such attacks usually come from the front... i.e. down the barrels of most of the Tau army, blocked by a single unit, can't multiassault etc. He had no Kroot, but the Fire Warriors were expendable enough

It's not any one factor that led this guy to this, it's the confluence of all of them. He was perfectly justified to concede defeat. He didn't need to be an arse about it, sure, but he was justified.

My two cents:

Dude deployed poorly. Even if you didn't get that warlord trait, Dark Angels are pretty much only good at being in your face really quickly. I get there's not a lot of us Dark Angel players around anymore so maybe the guy didn't know, but the thing is what we are good at TAU SPECIFICALLY COUNTER.

A few things he shoulda thought of before packing up his things: He's got at least 1 shooting phase before you can assault anyway. Even then, your bikes get melted in overwatch against a Tau Castle when they try to charge, and his Riptide/Broadsides could easily kill your deep striking terminators ON YOUR TURN if the guy brought the Interceptor doohickey.

@GreaterGoodIreland: What? Why? How is that an oversight? I fail to understand. Because the bikes also have scout? I don't see that as a big deal. From personal experience, the only thing that ever happens to my bikes when I try to do infiltrate/scout shenanigans is they all get eradicated on turn 1. I don't know about you, but I dislike losing 27 point models en masse. Black Knights its even a worse idea because you're going to lose a large chunk of 42 point models that way. It's got a lot of alpha strike potential but it's hardly an overpowered tactic because it can backfire greatly.

Bikes have not and never will be considered vehicles for the purpose of WH40k. Just because we define them as such in the real world doesn't mean it makes them so in the game. Vehicles in WH40k = things with armor values rather than toughness. It's that simple. "Bike" is simply a unit type, like Monstrous Creature, or Jump Infantry.

 SRSFACE wrote:

Bikes have not and never will be considered vehicles for the purpose of WH40k.

they were in 2-d iirc.

 SRSFACE wrote:
@GreaterGoodIreland: What? Why? How is that an oversight? I fail to understand. Because the bikes also have scout? I don't see that as a big deal. From personal experience, the only thing that ever happens to my bikes when I try to do infiltrate/scout shenanigans is they all get eradicated on turn 1. I don't know about you, but I dislike losing 27 point models en masse. Black Knights its even a worse idea because you're going to lose a large chunk of 42 point models that way. It's got a lot of alpha strike potential but it's hardly an overpowered tactic because it can backfire greatly.

Bikes have not and never will be considered vehicles for the purpose of WH40k. Just because we define them as such in the real world doesn't mean it makes them so in the game. Vehicles in WH40k = things with armor values rather than toughness. It's that simple. "Bike" is simply a unit type, like Monstrous Creature, or Jump Infantry.

One unit of bikers, sure, you'd get murderised. Up to three? Potential for mischief is a bit too high. Its backfire potential is situational, as it proved here. Three units that absolutely must be dealt with almost in their entirety on turn one is no small problem for an opponent. And it's a warlord trait. Cheese.

And for the last time, I'm not claiming that bikes are vehicles in the rules, I'm saying their speed and slightly tougher nature make them worthy of a balance consideration.

If you don't plan for it, and your opponent is lucky enough to roll for it, then yes it can be brutal. It's not a given that they'll roll it, it's a game of dice, these things happen.

Not planning for these things, is entirely the fault of the player however

 grendel083 wrote:
If you don't plan for it, and your opponent is lucky enough to roll for it, then yes it can be brutal. It's not a given that they'll roll it, it's a game of dice, these things happen.

Not planning for these things, is entirely the fault of the player however

Well, not like you can't bauble wrap with firewarriors. A squad pushes forward to deny movement, others shoot.

And you should plan your deployment with at least DW assault in mind.

I had a game where turn 1, enemy whole command squad failed leadership and ran off the board. The game was technically over, but we played on until I tabled him on turn 3.

It depends on who are you playing with.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, not like you can't bauble wrap with firewarriors. A squad pushes forward to deny movement, others shoot.

And you should plan your deployment with at least DW assault in mind.

Absolutley. And you know before deployment what Warlord trait your opponent has.

I've been using a cheap unit of Kommandos more and more lately, just to stop Scouts and Infiltrators (Infiltrators are always deployed before Scouts ). 10 with a couple of Rokkits, incase they can get a side armour shot at something. Dirt cheap for what they do.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Dude, that's not dodgy or an oversight at all. Bikes and Jetbikes are a kind of unit with a Toughness value. No vehicle has a Toughness value, while Bikes and Jetbikes don't possess any kind of Front, Side or Rear armour. There's no reason to rule them as 'vehicles' for infiltrate/scout purposes.

What the rules say are what you should use. Bikes and Jetbikes aren't vehicles by the rules. No reason to try to apply vehicles rules on them.
This is no oversight at all, as they had a Toughness value back in 5th, had it in 6th and in 7th remained as so.

*facepalm*

It's an oversight or cheese that bikers would be allowed to infiltrate with the Dark Angels warlord trait, not that they're classed separately in general. Obviously they're not vehicles for rules purposes, I'm saying it's broken that they're not considered vehicles for the purposes of that trait.

No DA Warlord trait allows Infitrating. The one that allows it is in the BRB. No oversight, as it is quite clear that NON-VEHICLE units receive the special rule. Bikes are non-vehicle units, so what's your point? They should't be considered vehicles; you could argue they should have implemented another restriction (no bikes/jetbikes), but they didn't - which means it isn't an oversight. Cheese or broken? Maybe, but I don't think it is. It's pretty rare to find (jet)bikes with good firepower around outside marines. never head of people complaining about this specific situation before (showing how rare it is).

what I'm seeing here is tau players sticking up for the douchebag who didn't even have the decency to give the OP a full game.

If your dice give you c#@p then that's the way it went - we do want truly random results, right?
Because otherwise it would be obvious what would happen and we could all save a load of money by thinking through a game of 'rock-paper-scissors'...

I do not do s#|t like that; i play games till the last turn is complete, no matter how bad the dice roll.

Forfeiting turn 1 is just plain disrespectful.

It took me time, and in some cases money, to get to a place in order to play a game. If my opponent forfeits turn 1, both that time and money is wasted.

If your dice give you c#@p then that's the way it went - we do want truly random results, right?

Hells no. Many many people want SOME random results, but primarily based on skill not luck, especially when that luck comes early and massively sways the battle one way or the other.

SirDonlad wrote:
what I'm seeing here is tau players sticking up for the douchebag who didn't even have the decency to give the OP a full game.

If your dice give you c#@p then that's the way it went - we do want truly random results, right?
Because otherwise it would be obvious what would happen and we could all save a load of money by thinking through a game of 'rock-paper-scissors'...

I do not do s#|t like that; i play games till the last turn is complete, no matter how bad the dice roll.

If the dice rolls happen very early in the game and it's blatantly obvious who's going to win, I really don't have a huge problem with someone throwing in the towel early. Granted, it probably would have been a bit more polite to play it out to turn 2 maybe, lol.

I've been playing long enough to not really care about playing a game which is going to be boring. 40k is not exactly a fast game and I'd rather do something else for a few hours than get utterly smashed or utterly smash someone else.

Though it can be a bit annoying when someone THINKS they have almost no hope but they actually do, lol.

To the OP: Sorry that this guy is your most common, if not only 40k gaming partner. If I remember correctly from other posts, at the moment you're a younger fellow who doesn't travel much to find games. This, in time, can and will change.

In the meantime, I would suggest focusing on the other aspects of the hobby. Take time/pleasure in bettering your painting skills. Do some conversions...build some cool terrain. Basically, do things that don't involve this D-bag.

It would be funny, however, to find out that your nemesis was posting about YOU on another forum. I can see the thread starting off something like this:

Title: PLEASE HELP! MY BABY SEAL IS GROWING UP!

Post: Hello fellow WAAC enthusiasts. As a tau player in an extremely small pool of players, I'm having a hard time with my opponents' attitude. They're constantly complaining that there isn't enough terrain on the table (I let them place 2 level 1 ruins and a tree...wth?) and are almost always butthurt by the fact that tailor my list to defeat theirs. My most common opponent has even starting getting advice from players online in an effort to actually win a game or two, and the results have been...off-putting. Please help! How can I keep my friends from learning better tactics or wanting to have fun doing something other than removing their models from the table? Like I said...I don't have access to many players...maybe I should hit some playgrounds and see if I can get some 10 year olds to start gaming with me? Thanks!

To me, anyone who concedes when their army is still healthy is that guy. (Barring "my kid is in the hospital-run out the door" moments.)

Clearly that guy is in the game to have fun blowing up your dudes, and impressing you with the magnificence of his dudes. When the flow of the game changes, and he's about to have some of his own dudes blown up, he's no longer having fun, due to extreme selfishness.

We have one guy like that, and he's the reason we implemented a code of conduct for our games, which includes only conceding after the opponent's turn.

yeah sure. Because when a GK player drops a centstar and 2NDKs and kills 2 out of 3 chimeras and most of my special weapon squads on the board turn 1. I should be playing him till turn 4 when he will finaly table me , so that he has fun rolling dice.

Gaming is a two way street. It may be selfish for a player to forfeit early just because he's going to lose thus denying their opponent the joy of playing a game. It is also pretty selfish to expect someone to play out a 2-3 hour slaughter because his opponents expects him to sit there and take it.

In the end a game isn't worth it if both players aren't enjoying it, regardless of the reason. Its best to call it early so you can use your time saved to find a way for both players to be happy.

It's pretty great that all these parking lot armies that could just sit back and shoot everything in 5th and 6th are finally forced to use tactics. Tau have one of the best codices with tons of firepower and mobility, and even get a pile of special rules to negate their weakness to assault.

OP, The fact that your opponent crammed one of the most mobile armies into a corner of the board, then lost it when he got alpha striked means he is a terrible player (and sportsman). You did well, and your strategy was sound, your only mistake was playing someone who only wants to win without earning it, not someone looking to have fun.

Well in the sense of a real battle, in a real world situation, if a general determined that a tactical mistake was made, then a full-on retreat would be considered a good idea.

So while him conceding on turn 1 was very annoying he at least could have said, "

hey, i think I screwed up my deployment a bit here and this game is going to be one-sided. You win this match. Would you mind going through the gamesetup again and we can play again?"

[sarcasm]
So.. it is fair if the tau get to use their advantage and gunline to shoot up everything that gets close.. and its cheesy if something uses speed to avoid that...
The only way to play "fair" against tau is being shot to pieces by giving them 2+ turns of unhindered shooting?
[/sarcasm]

 Icculus wrote:


...he at least could have said,

"hey, i think I screwed up my deployment a bit here and this game is going to be one-sided. You win this match. Would you mind going through the gamesetup again and we can play again?"

"And I'd look down and whisper... NO"

I think you just have to take your licks if you set up badly. Simple as that.

I'd be inclined to allow a partial reset if I thought my opponent made a legitimate mistake deploying, but in this case it is obvious that the Tau player didn't know any other way to play, aside from park it and shoot.

But even then, I'd warn him before we started if he made an obvious tactical mistake.

So what you're saying is that he should have run the ball instead?

He should have done the usual Tau strategy of jet packing around while shooting. Let his firewarriors take the hit if they got targeted (unless he wisely gave them transports) and pick off targets with crisis suits and skimmers. The bikes would likely catch up, but they aren't something tau can't handle and if the tau player spread out properly he would only loose a few units to the main assault, while dispersing the rest to keep firing.

Makumba wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sounds like just a sore loser. If he'd not castled up in the corner he would have had a chance. Sounds like he's had too many easy curbstomps.

So what was he suppose to do spread? Tau aren't meq , just like IG, spread they die, they have a ton of support rules that work on a very short range.
I guess the dude didn't have enough plasma to kill 4 squads and didn't have enough riptides to tar pit them. And I doubt it is fun for a tau player to be stuck in constant melee for 3-4 turns, when your technicly rolling dice, but you know that your opponent has better stats and will win anyway.
Wasted time, don't see why quiting such a game would be a bad thing. I know he lost, his opponent knows he won, why play it , to roll dice?

Fire warriors might be garbage but Tau players often forget about their crisis suits. I might be odd, but I am a Tau player who is not afraid of CC. Crisis suits are hard to kill 3+/4++ can be a real pain to take out. We are base Strength 5 which means we are wounding on 3s. Against TWC or similar stat units it might be hard to get the hit, but the wounds are not the bad. Also if you are playing Farsight we could actually get 3 specialized mêlée units that are not half bad. Freight/fusion blade/Aunt'Shui.

I just played a game against Space Marines where my Commander and his bodyguard team took out two assault marine squads, only losing a few drones and a single wound on a crisis suit. Yes he rolled below average, but whatever he hit with I could make my saves. My Fusion blade commander cut through his squads.

Grouping is a losing strategy for Tau. Yes Supporting fire is great, but not as great as people think it is. I never rely on it. My usual games I am advancing and then falling back. A static gun line will lose games while a mobile force will maximize firing time. Sounds like he deployed poorly and did not understand his own army mechanics. Knowing my army, if you got that close to me and did not charge me, you're squad would not be a threat by the end of my turn.

Grouping = big edit: blob* for drop pod flamers. You played well OP don't feel bad. Sadly lots of Tau players lack ingenuity and fail to play the army properly = thinking they can just stand and shoot to win.

Makumba wrote:
yeah sure. Because when a GK player drops a centstar and 2NDKs and kills 2 out of 3 chimeras and most of my special weapon squads on the board turn 1. I should be playing him till turn 4 when he will finaly table me , so that he has fun rolling dice.

Well, yes! I mean you don't have to go to the last model standing. I'd at least give him til his 3rd turn to be sporty. Pay it forward. Next time it might be you wanting to try out some new squad that comes in from reserve, and you might be overwhelming him on turn 1.

People nowadays are so inconsiderate and selfish :/

niv-mizzet wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah sure. Because when a GK player drops a centstar and 2NDKs and kills 2 out of 3 chimeras and most of my special weapon squads on the board turn 1. I should be playing him till turn 4 when he will finaly table me , so that he has fun rolling dice.

Well, yes! I mean you don't have to go to the last model standing. I'd at least give him til his 3rd turn to be sporty. Pay it forward. Next time it might be you wanting to try out some new squad that comes in from reserve, and you might be overwhelming him on turn 1.

People nowadays are so inconsiderate and selfish :/

Exactly. The fair thing to do, in my opinion, would be to at least play out the first two turns. Turn one your Tau army is surrounded and boxed in? Good, that's at least one turn of pouring fire into them. Turn two they charge? Good, you get to use Supporting Fire or whatever. At least let him kill some of your models in close combat before you quit. If after your second turn 75% of your army is dead, you have no chance of going for objectives, it looks pretty hopeless, etc, yeah you may as well forfeit, but at least offer a rematch. You gave the other guy the satisfaction of handing you a solid drubbing instead of robbing him of that, but no sense in drawing it out. I'd rather get in a second game, and hopefully a much closer one.

And if somehow by the bottom of turn 2 you still have a good number of models on the board, through luck or mistakes on their part or what have you, you can keep going and maybe even squeak out a miraculous victory, all because you didn't spoil a legendary game by quitting early!

OT, can you Infilitrate AND Scout? I know there aren't a ton of units that can do that, but I though you had to use one or the other.

Wow I can't believe the nerve of someone to scoop turn 1. Like come on we just took like 30-40 minutes setting up a game, and you're just going to forfeit? Jeeez. Also to surrender to Dark Angels is pretty funny, I would definitely bring that up from time to time "Hey remember that time a Tau player surrendered turn 1 to ME? A Dark Angels player?" Good times haha.

I did an army swap game, my Eldar (4 WS, 2 WK 20 Guardians and extras) against his army (2 Flyrants, 3 Harpies/Crones Venomthrope Dakkafex brood+Warriors) On turn 1 he killed 3 of my flyers before they could lift off, and turn 2 he killed my other Hive Tyrant and ID a Harpy or Crone with a Wraithknight, I was like holy smack, this is awful, but you know what I was a sport about it and played it through. It was actually my friend who was like "Ya know Deafbeats, this is kind of a slaughter, lets call it bro." But I wasn't gonna be the one to give up.

OP don't sweat it, that dudes a jerk and i'm sorry you live in a place with not a big community :\

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, can you Infilitrate AND Scout? I know there aren't a ton of units that can do that, but I though you had to use one or the other.

You know at first I thought that is what I read, but then I figured he just meant he scouted everything else.

But otherwise, no, you cant Infiltrate AND scout. At least I didnt think you could....can you?

Also, your opponent sounds like TFG. Honestly, I think your list should have been a pretty even match. Tau do well at shooting down units that try to charge them. If he deployed badly and you out-played him, that's his fault. You make mistakes and you learn from them, that's how you become a better player.

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, can you Infilitrate AND Scout? I know there aren't a ton of units that can do that, but I though you had to use one or the other.

I do not think the rules state that they are mutually exclusive. The unit did not originally have the ability to infiltrate, they were given that by a random warlord trait roll. Maybe the wording would clarify. Does scout movement occur before or after infiltrators? If scout is meant to be first then no you cannot do both, but if scout is after infiltration, I see no reason why not.

Tau players typically get really mad when my dreadknights shunt and kill all their pathfinders on turn 1. I've made many quit like that. Really only tau players quit turn 1.

Only spoiled sports quit turn 1

I've made Grey Knights quit turn one after I destroyed most of their cheesy alpha strike with interceptor. How I love cheesy Grey Knight players' tears

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tau players typically get really mad when my dreadknights shunt and kill all their pathfinders on turn 1. I've made many quit like that. Really only tau players quit turn 1.

Our TFG for giving up is dark eldar. Usually when he loses a shadow field, even if it took 12+ saves to do it. Our only tau guy is my long time best friend and is always up for house rules, super heavies, or whatever you want to put on the table.

Biggest thing I noticed about this is poor tactics on the Tau player. In general most Gunline armies regardless of whatever race got hit pretty hard in the new Edition and are not nearly as good as they used to be, especially against armies like the DA player used. Had he spread out and forced him to only attack a portion of his army or even split his forces it would have worked out better for him

SGTPozy wrote:
I've made Grey Knights quit turn one after I destroyed most of their cheesy alpha strike with interceptor. How I love cheesy Grey Knight players' tears

LOL dude...shunt isn't interceptor-able.

Learning is painful sometimes and definitely not for everyone. Let this guy continue to play his boring one dimensional game with someone else.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sounds like just a sore loser. If he'd not castled up in the corner he would have had a chance. Sounds like he's had too many easy curbstomps.

So what was he suppose to do spread? Tau aren't meq , just like IG, spread they die, they have a ton of support rules that work on a very short range.
I guess the dude didn't have enough plasma to kill 4 squads and didn't have enough riptides to tar pit them. And I doubt it is fun for a tau player to be stuck in constant melee for 3-4 turns, when your technicly rolling dice, but you know that your opponent has better stats and will win anyway.
Wasted time, don't see why quiting such a game would be a bad thing. I know he lost, his opponent knows he won, why play it , to roll dice?

Fire warriors might be garbage but Tau players often forget about their crisis suits. I might be odd, but I am a Tau player who is not afraid of CC. Crisis suits are hard to kill 3+/4++ can be a real pain to take out. We are base Strength 5 which means we are wounding on 3s. Against TWC or similar stat units it might be hard to get the hit, but the wounds are not the bad. Also if you are playing Farsight we could actually get 3 specialized mêlée units that are not half bad. Freight/fusion blade/Aunt'Shui.

I just played a game against Space Marines where my Commander and his bodyguard team took out two assault marine squads, only losing a few drones and a single wound on a crisis suit. Yes he rolled below average, but whatever he hit with I could make my saves. My Fusion blade commander cut through his squads.

Grouping is a losing strategy for Tau. Yes Supporting fire is great, but not as great as people think it is. I never rely on it. My usual games I am advancing and then falling back. A static gun line will lose games while a mobile force will maximize firing time. Sounds like he deployed poorly and did not understand his own army mechanics. Knowing my army, if you got that close to me and did not charge me, you're squad would not be a threat by the end of my turn.

Grouping = big edit: blob* for drop pod flamers. You played well OP don't feel bad. Sadly lots of Tau players lack ingenuity and fail to play the army properly = thinking they can just stand and shoot to win.

Yup, and the range on supporting fire is larger than you think. You can spread out a fair bit and still benefit from it.

SGTPozy wrote:
I've made Grey Knights quit turn one after I destroyed most of their cheesy alpha strike with interceptor. How I love cheesy Grey Knight players' tears

A tau player spamming interceptor, then claiming GK are cheesy for doing the one thing their army was built around.

Oh, the irony. I give it 7/10 riptides.

 Icculus wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, can you Infilitrate AND Scout? I know there aren't a ton of units that can do that, but I though you had to use one or the other.

You know at first I thought that is what I read, but then I figured he just meant he scouted everything else.

But otherwise, no, you cant Infiltrate AND scout. At least I didnt think you could....can you?

Yes, you can. The rules even state which order you do them in when you have both rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
I've made Grey Knights quit turn one after I destroyed most of their cheesy alpha strike with interceptor. How I love cheesy Grey Knight players' tears

LOL dude...shunt isn't interceptor-able.

LOL, Grey Knights have a detachment that lets them DS their entire army on T1, which is subject to Interceptor fire.

I noticed I'm getting complaints that the bike infiltrate was cheese. So let's say I didn't use it. My bikes, which I always place in the center of the table, wold have done a scout move putting them about 13" from the enemy line. The termies would have dropped, been 6" from their line. Yes, I have deathwing assault and my opponent knows that, and I was too lazy to write it down so during deployment I even told him everything was coming in turn 1. Before he was deployed I said this.

I was honestly hoping for the warlord trait that lets me pin units at the start of the game, so I could limit his first turn firing capabilities. Even if I had gone with no warlord trait I still would've had turn 2 charge, with turn 1 rapid fire coming from the bikes.

If you're saying he should just forfeit this scenario, does that mean that every time I play him from now on he should just automatically forfeit? Because part of my core strategy of my army is turn 2 charge. I didn't drive half an hour for a 2 minute game.

True but what idiot is deepstriking their army either out of LOS or not deepstriking at all against a EWO list? At that point they deserve to lose, unless the other player failed to mention their list at the start.

EDIT: Pretty much king... your only hope is either him learn the error of his ways or continue having bad games where either you DON'T get the T2 charge and he wins or vice versa.

 Icculus wrote:
Well in the sense of a real battle, in a real world situation, if a general determined that a tactical mistake was made, then a full-on retreat would be considered a good idea.

So while him conceding on turn 1 was very annoying he at least could have said, "

hey, i think I screwed up my deployment a bit here and this game is going to be one-sided. You win this match. Would you mind going through the gamesetup again and we can play again?"

He'll have to actually perform a fall-back move with everything he has. I'd still play that, i guess

 Icculus wrote:
So what you're saying is that he should have run the ball instead?

Have an exault!

My thoughts on bikes being/not being vehicles.

1. Vehicles offer at least some type of physical protection that must be penetrated to destroy said vehicle(which brings up the Tau, and their monstrous creature armor...). You're just sitting on your bike in the open. Why shoot the bike when you can just kill the rider?

2. Could you imagine getting 2-4 explosion results on a bike squad!?

3. Ten Space Marine bikers with Av5-10 all around.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I noticed I'm getting complaints that the bike infiltrate was cheese. So let's say I didn't use it. My bikes, which I always place in the center of the table, wold have done a scout move putting them about 13" from the enemy line. The termies would have dropped, been 6" from their line. Yes, I have deathwing assault and my opponent knows that, and I was too lazy to write it down so during deployment I even told him everything was coming in turn 1. Before he was deployed I said this.

I was honestly hoping for the warlord trait that lets me pin units at the start of the game, so I could limit his first turn firing capabilities. Even if I had gone with no warlord trait I still would've had turn 2 charge, with turn 1 rapid fire coming from the bikes.

If you're saying he should just forfeit this scenario, does that mean that every time I play him from now on he should just automatically forfeit? Because part of my core strategy of my army is turn 2 charge. I didn't drive half an hour for a 2 minute game.

The more I think about it, the more I'm fine with the decision to concede. I don't get to play a lot of games and I'd rather write one off after a massive deployment mistake than waste two more hours in a pointless die-rolling exercise. Instead, I can probably reset and start a new game that will potentially be challenging.

 blue_crystal wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
I've made Grey Knights quit turn one after I destroyed most of their cheesy alpha strike with interceptor. How I love cheesy Grey Knight players' tears

A tau player spamming interceptor, then claiming GK are cheesy for doing the one thing their army was built around.

Oh, the irony. I give it 7/10 riptides.

I didn't say that interceptor spam wasn't cheese now did I? I did it as a retaliation as the guy was always a dick in games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
I've made Grey Knights quit turn one after I destroyed most of their cheesy alpha strike with interceptor. How I love cheesy Grey Knight players' tears

LOL dude...shunt isn't interceptor-able.

I never said it was.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I noticed I'm getting complaints that the bike infiltrate was cheese. So let's say I didn't use it. My bikes, which I always place in the center of the table, wold have done a scout move putting them about 13" from the enemy line. The termies would have dropped, been 6" from their line. Yes, I have deathwing assault and my opponent knows that, and I was too lazy to write it down so during deployment I even told him everything was coming in turn 1. Before he was deployed I said this.

I was honestly hoping for the warlord trait that lets me pin units at the start of the game, so I could limit his first turn firing capabilities. Even if I had gone with no warlord trait I still would've had turn 2 charge, with turn 1 rapid fire coming from the bikes.

If you're saying he should just forfeit this scenario, does that mean that every time I play him from now on he should just automatically forfeit? Because part of my core strategy of my army is turn 2 charge. I didn't drive half an hour for a 2 minute game.

Nope. Your list is fine, he's just TFG. Unfortunately, I'd say play him again, but tell him ahead of time you're bringing the same list. If he backs out ahead of time, well, there you go. If he packs up Turn 1, explain how frustrating it is to waste time and drive so far for nothing. Either he will get it this time or you're out of luck and know not to play him anymore.

 kingbobbito wrote:


Can you even blame the warlord trait either? Without it my termies would have just dropped 6" away from you instead of 3"

Please, anyone, explain to me why an opponent would do this. I just need some way to wrap my mind around what happened. This is definitely going to put me off from playing 40k for awhile. I've been kind. I've been forgiving. It's the same opponent that I've mentioned in two other posts, and I should have listened when everyone said not to play him. I just feel legitimately guilty that an opponent got mad at me. Did I do something wrong? Am I a bad person? I feel terrible

This isn't a 40K issue. People need to separate the game from the player. Sore losers are everywhere. and take it from me: once you get GOOD at the game, well... you'll find the ones you didn't find the first time around.

As I've talked about 100 times before and on multiple forums, there are those who like to win and those who hate losing. Be the former not the latter. and don't blame 40K for the latter.

 Jancoran wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:


Can you even blame the warlord trait either? Without it my termies would have just dropped 6" away from you instead of 3"

Please, anyone, explain to me why an opponent would do this. I just need some way to wrap my mind around what happened. This is definitely going to put me off from playing 40k for awhile. I've been kind. I've been forgiving. It's the same opponent that I've mentioned in two other posts, and I should have listened when everyone said not to play him. I just feel legitimately guilty that an opponent got mad at me. Did I do something wrong? Am I a bad person? I feel terrible

This isn't a 40K issue. People need to separate the game from the player. Sore losers are everywhere. and take it from me: once you get GOOD at the game, well... you'll find the ones you didn't find the first time around.

As I've talked about 100 times before and on multiple forums, there are those who like to win and those who hate losing. Be the former not the latter. and don't blame 40K for the latter.

Janc, a little humility never hurts either.

Humility isn't the problem. People packing up in turn one is the problem that happened here.

This poster didn't bring a power list, got LUCKY on his Warlord trait, used it to minimal but yes real advantage and... the guy leaves?

Worse, the original poster seemed to think it was a 40K issue.

The dude was wrong for leaving. Flat wrong. And the guy who feels like he's soured on 40K is wrong too.

This is about players hating to lose. That's what that's about, and that's what I said.

And I am right. The better you are at the game, the more often these kinds of things spring up (weird coincidence or human nature? you decide). Maybe not in turn ONE but... People start "checking out", looking at their phone, and the whole nine yards so even if the game continues, it really isn't continuing is it?


But none of that is a reflection on 40K. That's just people who come to win and have no interest in the opponents fun. Once they see defeat coming, they have a choice. They can fight to the bitter end and see if they can pull it out heroically or they could at LEAST say "hey you know what: you got me. We can play this out or we can start a new game but IM willing to give it to you and say WELL PLAYED SIR". At least give the original poster the choice right?

It has nothing to do with hating or not. What will the dude get from spending 1hour or more knowing how the game ends anyway. It doesn't help with becoming a better player, it can't teach the tau player anything new and what is probably most important, it is wasting the tau player time. The DA player won, what else does he want from playing a game, why restart it if there is a chance he will again start get the same trait , while you waste another 20+min rolling random powers, changing terrain etc.

well, i guess another tau player needs to learn what Kroot are for, stopping exactly that kind of maneuver!

its not hard, with proper positioning of units, to stop deep strikes landing behind your lines (instead directing them where you want) and its also not hard to deploy your forces so your screen absorbs any infiltrate or fast moving tactics, hell, thats what a screen is for!

That being said, there are some games when it can be decided on turn 1, and past the winning player curb stomping someone over a number of turns sometimes there really isn't any point playing on, however...

I've been on the receiving end, and with obsec units, as well as playing longer than anyone expected, managed to win games with a handful of miniatures left, against an almost full strength army (go for objectives!!)

I've never liked castling up with Tau, they are such a flexible army, and, like, tau are awesome at bringing deepstrikers themselves. Nothing beats dropping in a few Monats on an IG player and vapourising his basilisks, or leman russ' with throwaway 50 point suits!

and as always, you learn more from a defeat, than you do a victory. as soon as he knew what warlord trait you had, and saw your list, your opponent, had he had a brain, would have realised what the potential outcome would be, and deployed accordingly

niv-mizzet wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah sure. Because when a GK player drops a centstar and 2NDKs and kills 2 out of 3 chimeras and most of my special weapon squads on the board turn 1. I should be playing him till turn 4 when he will finaly table me , so that he has fun rolling dice.

Well, yes! I mean you don't have to go to the last model standing. I'd at least give him til his 3rd turn to be sporty. Pay it forward. Next time it might be you wanting to try out some new squad that comes in from reserve, and you might be overwhelming him on turn 1.

People nowadays are so inconsiderate and selfish :/

What reserv unit? I have a 1500 IG army, he has 1500 GK one. He can chance the cent star for a third NDK, IG doesn't have reserv units. I mean I could technicly take a second vendetta , but because vet squads are 10 man and the vendettas went up in points , I would run a single russ then. Which makes no sense at all. I would have to drop it , but then I would have a void I can't replace with anything useful. Plus no reserv squads are going to help me If I know that turn 1 I get two or three ndks in the face. It is the same with eldar, I just know that point for points they out shot me, my army can't melee them and they are faster and more resilient when on objectives. Then only questions playing them is did he get invisibility off turn 1. If he did I may as well pack up, because turn 2 will be him multi charging my tanks with str 9 models follwed by my troops getting hit by serpents and DA. If he doesn't get the invisibility off I can try to kill as much of the deathstar as I can.

and as always, you learn more from a defeat, than you do a victory. as soon as he knew what warlord trait you had, and saw your list, your opponent, had he had a brain, would have realised what the potential outcome would be, and deployed accordingly

spread the fire warriors? get charged by bikes and terminators. castle up, get charged by bike and fire warriors. Tell me what is the difference. That he should have divided his army and get one destroyed and then the other one a turn or two later? What would that change in how the game ended, besides the fact that he would play a losing game longer.

If he's spread out, it will take multiple turns for the bikes to get to each unit. giving you time to shoot them.

Otherwise, the bikes can pacman their way through the Tau army by winning combat on the Tau player's turn and then charging into a new combat on their own turn. If there is more distance the Tau can guarantee at least 1 round of shooting before the bikes can charge again.

Clumping is a very bad idea in general.

 kingbobbito wrote:
If you're saying he should just forfeit this scenario, does that mean that every time I play him from now on he should just automatically forfeit? Because part of my core strategy of my army is turn 2 charge. I didn't drive half an hour for a 2 minute game.

It is absolutely your Gork-given right to assault in turn 2. GW has largely taken turn 1 assaults out of the game, and there are a few TFGs out there that think they deserve 2-3 turns of unfettered shooting before you are allowed to respond.

I just suggest, next time you play him, that you are up front with him and let him know that you will be doing everything you can to charge turn 2, and that he had better deploy appropriately.

What you said:

Makumba wrote:
It has nothing to do with hating or not. What will the dude get from spending 1hour or more knowing how the game ends anyway. It doesn't help with becoming a better player, it can't teach the tau player anything new and what is probably most important, it is wasting the tau player time. The DA player won, what else does he want from playing a game, why restart it if there is a chance he will again start get the same trait , while you waste another 20+min rolling random powers, changing terrain etc.

What I read:

There's a chance you'll win if you ever play him again so you should never play him again. Stop wasting time by playing 40k, it's easier to just decide ahead of time who won and then go home.

 kingbobbito wrote:
What you said:

Makumba wrote:
It has nothing to do with hating or not. What will the dude get from spending 1hour or more knowing how the game ends anyway. It doesn't help with becoming a better player, it can't teach the tau player anything new and what is probably most important, it is wasting the tau player time. The DA player won, what else does he want from playing a game, why restart it if there is a chance he will again start get the same trait , while you waste another 20+min rolling random powers, changing terrain etc.

What I read:

There's a chance you'll win if you ever play him again so you should never play him again. Stop wasting time by playing 40k, it's easier to just decide ahead of time who won and then go home.

Yeah, that's more or less what I got out of it. I wouldn't say stop playing 40k, but don't play people who aren't fun to play.

You didn't do anything wrong. Actually...anyone Tau tears are a welcomed beverage. I tip my glass to you Dark Angel.

 Jancoran wrote:
Humility isn't the problem. People packing up in turn one is the problem that happened here.

This poster didn't bring a power list, got LUCKY on his Warlord trait, used it to minimal but yes real advantage and... the guy leaves?

Worse, the original poster seemed to think it was a 40K issue.

The dude was wrong for leaving. Flat wrong. And the guy who feels like he's soured on 40K is wrong too.

This is about players hating to lose. That's what that's about, and that's what I said.

And I am right. The better you are at the game, the more often these kinds of things spring up (weird coincidence or human nature? you decide). Maybe not in turn ONE but... People start "checking out", looking at their phone, and the whole nine yards so even if the game continues, it really isn't continuing is it?


But none of that is a reflection on 40K. That's just people who come to win and have no interest in the opponents fun. Once they see defeat coming, they have a choice. They can fight to the bitter end and see if they can pull it out heroically or they could at LEAST say "hey you know what: you got me. We can play this out or we can start a new game but IM willing to give it to you and say WELL PLAYED SIR". At least give the original poster the choice right?

Janc, I didn't mean OP or his opponent, I was talking about you. You come off as conceited and know it all and I don't think that's an attitude that helps.

Sore losers are everywhere. and take it from me: once you get GOOD at the game, well... you'll find the ones you didn't find the first time around.

As I've talked about 100 times before and on multiple forums, there are those who like to win and those who hate losing.

Seriously. I think OP's opponent was a jerk for packing up early, but a lot of 40k players have no humility.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Seriously. I think OP's opponent was a jerk for packing up early, but a lot of 40k players have no humility.

Man children with toy solders and way to much disposable income?!?!?! IMPOSIBU

You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:


Tau v White Scars, Tau will get first turn.

White Scars player says he's putting *everything* in Reserves, nothing on the tabletop.

Tau player asks "You sure about that?"

White Scars player confirms "Yes."

Tau player infiltrates Kroot across the entire length of the board edge, preventing any White Scars from entering the game.

Referee: "FRAWLESS VICTOLY!!!"


That picture never gets old.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/277109.page

That face man.

What a perfect picture.

I know! It is the definitive gak eating grin.

And that is why all White Scar armies should have at least 1 tank.

The white scar T-shirt wearing player..has a very sad face....lol

Welcome to tourny play boyo!

Makumba wrote:
It has nothing to do with hating or not. What will the dude get from spending 1hour or more knowing how the game ends anyway. It doesn't help with becoming a better player, it can't teach the tau player anything new and what is probably most important, it is wasting the tau player time. The DA player won, what else does he want from playing a game, why restart it if there is a chance he will again start get the same trait , while you waste another 20+min rolling random powers, changing terrain etc.

So...give the opponent the choice. Its fun to win and you're basically stealing that from the guy. Why not at least offer a concession speech and offer to rack em up and do it again? Whats the VALUE in approaching it the way THIS guy did? Zero that I can see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Janc, I didn't mean OP or his opponent, I was talking about you. You come off as conceited and know it all and I don't think that's an attitude that helps.
Seriously. I think OP's opponent was a jerk for packing up early, but a lot of 40k players have no humility.

I knew what you were saying. I just didn't see a point in derailing a thread to "defend" myself. And I still don't. This isn't about me.

I don't know what to say to that except "Tell me where the point I was making is wrong and we can talk about it". But if all you're here to say is that you find my confidence galling, I'm not sure where that got us even if it is your impression?

The original poster has nothing to apologize for. The guy that left cares too much about losing. Find the fault in what I said just now, or agree with me. You can PM me about my confidence if you want so we can sort that out elsewhere.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:


Tau v White Scars, Tau will get first turn.

White Scars player says he's putting *everything* in Reserves, nothing on the tabletop.

Tau player asks "You sure about that?"

White Scars player confirms "Yes."

Tau player infiltrates Kroot across the entire length of the board edge, preventing any White Scars from entering the game.

Referee: "FRAWLESS VICTOLY!!!"


That picture never gets old.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/277109.page

That was famous. I remember that like it was yesterday.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
My thoughts on bikes being/not being vehicles.

1. Vehicles offer at least some type of physical protection that must be penetrated to destroy said vehicle(which brings up the Tau, and their monstrous creature armor...). You're just sitting on your bike in the open. Why shoot the bike when you can just kill the rider?

2. Could you imagine getting 2-4 explosion results on a bike squad!?

3. Ten Space Marine bikers with Av5-10 all around.

Ork buggies are vehicles. And they're taken in squadrons of 1-5. And orks are sitting on top of it in the open. Such vehicles are usually represented having AV10 all around, opentopped. And trust me, they're MUCH less durable than t5, 3+.

Makumba wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah sure. Because when a GK player drops a centstar and 2NDKs and kills 2 out of 3 chimeras and most of my special weapon squads on the board turn 1. I should be playing him till turn 4 when he will finaly table me , so that he has fun rolling dice.

Well, yes! I mean you don't have to go to the last model standing. I'd at least give him til his 3rd turn to be sporty. Pay it forward. Next time it might be you wanting to try out some new squad that comes in from reserve, and you might be overwhelming him on turn 1.

People nowadays are so inconsiderate and selfish :/

What reserv unit? I have a 1500 IG army, he has 1500 GK one. He can chance the cent star for a third NDK, IG doesn't have reserv units. I mean I could technicly take a second vendetta , but because vet squads are 10 man and the vendettas went up in points , I would run a single russ then. Which makes no sense at all. I would have to drop it , but then I would have a void I can't replace with anything useful. Plus no reserv squads are going to help me If I know that turn 1 I get two or three ndks in the face. It is the same with eldar, I just know that point for points they out shot me, my army can't melee them and they are faster and more resilient when on objectives. Then only questions playing them is did he get invisibility off turn 1. If he did I may as well pack up, because turn 2 will be him multi charging my tanks with str 9 models follwed by my troops getting hit by serpents and DA. If he doesn't get the invisibility off I can try to kill as much of the deathstar as I can.

and as always, you learn more from a defeat, than you do a victory. as soon as he knew what warlord trait you had, and saw your list, your opponent, had he had a brain, would have realised what the potential outcome would be, and deployed accordingly

spread the fire warriors? get charged by bikes and terminators. castle up, get charged by bike and fire warriors. Tell me what is the difference. That he should have divided his army and get one destroyed and then the other one a turn or two later? What would that change in how the game ended, besides the fact that he would play a losing game longer.

You're not one for tactics, are you? As an IG player myself, I'd say you need to think outside the box. Put a plasma lemun russ in reserve, field an infantry platoon with a conscript blob to screen your plasma packing vets and melta command squad. Or you could ally in inquisition or a small space marine strike force with tygurious to nullify the GK psychic powers, or an anti-psyker assasin.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Janc, I didn't mean OP or his opponent, I was talking about you. You come off as conceited and know it all and I don't think that's an attitude that helps.
Seriously. I think OP's opponent was a jerk for packing up early, but a lot of 40k players have no humility.

I knew what you were saying. I just didn't see a point in derailing a thread to "defend" myself. And I still don't. This isn't about me.

I don't know what to say to that except "Tell me where the point I was making is wrong and we can talk about it". But if all you're here to say is that you find my confidence galling, I'm not sure where that got us even if it is your impression?

The original poster has nothing to apologize for. The guy that left cares too much about losing. Find the fault in what I said just now, or agree with me. You can PM me about my confidence if you want so we can sort that out elsewhere.

Forgive me, I forgot Webster changed the meaning of Arrogance to Confidence, I'll have to alert the media. My point where you were wrong, since you want to call it that, is that OP's opponent probably had no humility and that's why he was a sore loser, as you so eloquently put it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:

Well, that's a loss - not a forfeit

I've left a fair share of games before they were "over" and the opponent was upset I didn't play the whole game. I've learned a lot about myself and other people as a result.

1) My first ever "campaign" type thing, and literally my second game ever, was 750 points. It was designed from the ground up as a newbies night, but apparently the guy I was playing didn't get that memo. I had the Dark Vengeance starter box of Chaos stuff plus a Sorcerer I'd picked up, not knowing jack squat about the game really. Guy I played brought 2 land raiders and nothing but cultists, and a cheap Chaos Lord. I literally never had a target to shoot at the whole game. I didn't understand the value of Melta Guns and Melta Bombs at the time because again, literally 2nd game ever and also 750 points, so didn't have any. Not like you expect to run into two land raiders at that points value. Turn 3, he'd whittled my Chaos Sorcerer's squad down to the point he was up front, and then a Lascannon instant-deathed him (yay learning about that rule!) so I just said "Screw it, this game is the most boring game I've ever played, congrats you win. I'm going to go play people how are actually also new to this game so I don't get steamrolled."

Probably poor sportsmanship on my part to not shake his hand afterward but then again, it wasn't a game. My turns I literally immediately passed back to the other guy because I had no reason to move away from the objectives I got to really quick, and I had nothing to shoot at. His turns he'd literally spend about 5 minutes making sure his guys were perfectly facing my squad to make sure all the lascannons could shoot into it, even though I told him "Sure, they can all see me. Let's please just play maybe?" Such fun! I do not regret walking away from that match, and also never playing that guy again.

2) 6E Tau codex had just dropped, so I didn't know anything about it. Also, still pretty new at this point. Guy I'm playing didn't really talk to me before the game, so I play my Dark Angels the way I had been. Much like the OP in this particular thread, bikers, scout move, deep striking terminators. I had no idea basically his entire army had interceptor. He killed roughly 750 points of my models, on my own turn. Turn two, he killed my black knights so I literally had no way of hurting his Riptides anymore so I just conceded. Mind you, the game only took maybe 30 minutes to get to this stage so my opponent gave me this really confused "Huh? Why you quitting so early?" look. I was really calm about the whole thing, for the record, and so was he. Just one of those "This got pointless in a hurry" things where neither of us had fun because it was just over so quick.

3) Also against Tau. I was letting a friend try out his slick R'varna Battlesuit model he'd just finished painting because it was awesome and at this point I didn't mind losing because I expected that every game, so what's rules still being experimental? I made the mistake of saying "I'm not too worried about it," before the match began because against regular Riptides at this point, I'd kind of figured out how to get my terminators into them to punch them to death. 4 rounds of close combat later, where literally 8 terminators with power fists didn't cause a single wound to the thing, I just said "Well, this is f***ing stupid. If I had realized it was that impossible to wound, I would have raised a much bigger stink about you wanting to bring it." He then proceeded to laugh at how "impotent" my terminators were, and kept reminding me every 4 minutes that I had said I wasn't too worried about it before the game began. Like, he just couldn't let it go that I had the audacity to think 8 powerfists could hurt that thing. That's when I started packing up. Taunting someone who's already clearly frustrated with the way the game is going is a dick move.

Luckily me and this guy are still really good friends, mostly because that is literally the last game of WH40k I've ever played. I just model and paint now and it's been over a year. We still swap tips and tricks to each other when we learn something cool when it comes to painting. So I suppose that's a lesson in and of itself: The hobby aspect of WH40k bonds people together more so than the game itself ever can. It's worth delving in to.

I guess what I'm really getting at it everyone is going to have their own opinion about what really happens in these kinds of situations. This guy could be fuming thinking you're some kind of WAAC TFG, when you think he's basically that. I assume you know the guy by name so it might be good to not have your army on you next time you're down hanging out, and simply talk to the guy to get to know him a bit better. Swap tactics. Talk it out. Come to an understanding. Might make a next game to better, or solidify the idea maybe he's just not worth playing against.

Skew problem. The OP's opponent ran a skew list, the OP ran hard-counters to the skew list, the game became one-sided. I've had similar experiences trying to run Daemons against a Krieg list with rerollable Ld10 everywhere and Inquisitors in every squad, it doesn't work and I scoop early if things go badly because my opponent and I both know exactly how the game is going to end by the end of turn two.

I've always tried to play an entire through even if I'm getting made into Tau soup. I've always played a specific Khorne demon player all the time who had an uncanny ability to always roll his 5++ like it was a 4++, not even lying he's just always lucky. So he always managed to bait me within his Skull Crushers, which, are scary. His bloodletters, which are of course scary when charging, and his blood thirsters who always soared directly at my riptides. Often using the grimoire or some other luck he had at rolling on that D100 to better his chances again against a load of S5. (I always bring a all comers list, while all of my opponents bring Tailored lists, so I lose more than win)


Plenty of times I've been faced with utter annihilation or backing all of my troops into a corner getting closer and closer abusing my over watch until his forces where just rekt because they just can't keep up as I start backing up. Although, often times if I rolled badly to kill faster things like thirsters or cavalry it would just be a blood bath in the corner of the table.

If you were playing me and you pulled that stuff I'd... Probably get you to teach me that trick!

Sometimes people are just crappy. It happens. I guess because the game has become so involved and expensive that people want to get ther "money's worth" every time they play. Knowing you've lost before you even got to move sucks. When it happens to me I usually say one of two things.

1: Wow, you are gonna table me! Do you wanna call this one a win and play again? Maybe try a different scenario? The idea here is to not get bogged down in a one sided game, and try to have a better match up.

2: Wow, you probably have this one in the bag. Let's just keep rolling!

In either case the idea is to continue to play the game. I mean he'll, it takes so long to get going, finding players, blah! Better to just knuckle down and either take the beating or play again.

I have the same story. Usual opponent played Tau. Camped his
Hammerheads and Riptides in corners, due to placement they were unkillable, never moved anything else, just gunlined and slaughtered my nids every game.

In either case the idea is to continue to play the game. I mean he'll, it takes so long to get going, finding players, blah! Better to just knuckle down and either take the beating or play again.

that is as much of a game, as what happened to my FFB team last seson. Other school team comes at it is full of 18year olds from border guard, they have the obligatory 2xunder 17, but non of them play of course. smallest of the "girls" is a head taller then me. Warm up starts and what do we see. 4 of them doing one arm pull ups. We should have totaly played against them, because it took them so long to get to match and the roids all border guard use cost that much etc.

A sad story if anything.

But you have to realize that Tau are just 100% fethed if you can bring most of your army in range for a T2 charge.
That's just how they are.
For example, I don't think any Tau player has a chance against a dual CAD of CSM full of Chaos Spawns and Maulerfiends.
Or a good Necron Wraith Spam.

Or a fast and assault oriented Dark Angels army.
From what you describe, his list was a bit of everything, not purely optimized (Tau Flyer...).
And your list seems to be Bikers and Deep Strike, nothing too optimized but surely T2 mass charge capable.


In my opinion, your opponent still had a chance, I would definitely have tried winning in his place.

Still, if someone believe they don't stand a chance to win, it's fine for them to ask to forfeit, there's no point playing any further if one has lost the will to play.

What's likely is that your opponent realized how much he fethed up by deploying like that and that may also have been the worst situation he had been in, pushing him to conclude that all was lost.

 koooaei wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:

Well, that's a loss - not a forfeit

Don't you automatically lose anyways when you start with nothing on the table? Or at any point have no models on the table?

You need to finish a game turn with nothing on the table to lose.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:

Well, that's a loss - not a forfeit

Don't you automatically lose anyways when you start with nothing on the table? Or at any point have no models on the table?

I think that applies to the end of a turn. If end of turn 1 you have nothing on the table you lose.

Are white scars able to bring in reserves on turn 1? I don't think they can - In which case they would have lost anyways without kroot shenanigans. Am I correct?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are white scars able to bring in reserves on turn 1? I don't think they can - In which case they would have lost anyways without kroot shenanigans. Am I correct?

They probably had something to enable them to come in turn 1, which the Kroot denied thanks to Infiltrate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are white scars able to bring in reserves on turn 1? I don't think they can - In which case they would have lost anyways without kroot shenanigans. Am I correct?

That picture was from like 4th or 5th edition (probably 4th.)

IIRC you didnt lose if you had everything in reserves.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are white scars able to bring in reserves on turn 1? I don't think they can - In which case they would have lost anyways without kroot shenanigans. Am I correct?

5th edition picture, no such auto loss rule existed then.

Yeah that's an old tale from 5th ed, and an awesome tale at that.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Janc, I didn't mean OP or his opponent, I was talking about you. You come off as conceited and know it all and I don't think that's an attitude that helps.
Seriously. I think OP's opponent was a jerk for packing up early, but a lot of 40k players have no humility.

I knew what you were saying. I just didn't see a point in derailing a thread to "defend" myself. And I still don't. This isn't about me.

I don't know what to say to that except "Tell me where the point I was making is wrong and we can talk about it". But if all you're here to say is that you find my confidence galling, I'm not sure where that got us even if it is your impression?

The original poster has nothing to apologize for. The guy that left cares too much about losing. Find the fault in what I said just now, or agree with me. You can PM me about my confidence if you want so we can sort that out elsewhere.

Forgive me, I forgot Webster changed the meaning of Arrogance to Confidence, I'll have to alert the media. My point where you were wrong, since you want to call it that, is that OP's opponent probably had no humility and that's why he was a sore loser, as you so eloquently put it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Its a common mistake. The difference between arrogance and confidence is how the person viewing it feels about themselves. Thats about it.

As for the guys lack of humility, I can count on two fingers the games I ever left early without giving my opponent the chance to gracefully accept or decline my surrender. So I dont think this has anything to do with humility. Its just immaturity. A guy who can't handle losing is just immature. I get not liking it. I get not seeking defeat. But i mean that is just kind of rude.

 Deafbeats wrote:
Yeah that's an old tale from 5th ed, and an awesome tale at that.

5th edition, Dawn of War deployment allowed you to bring your entire army onto the board from your table edge at the start of your first turn.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Janc, I didn't mean OP or his opponent, I was talking about you. You come off as conceited and know it all and I don't think that's an attitude that helps.
Seriously. I think OP's opponent was a jerk for packing up early, but a lot of 40k players have no humility.

I knew what you were saying. I just didn't see a point in derailing a thread to "defend" myself. And I still don't. This isn't about me.

I don't know what to say to that except "Tell me where the point I was making is wrong and we can talk about it". But if all you're here to say is that you find my confidence galling, I'm not sure where that got us even if it is your impression?

The original poster has nothing to apologize for. The guy that left cares too much about losing. Find the fault in what I said just now, or agree with me. You can PM me about my confidence if you want so we can sort that out elsewhere.

Forgive me, I forgot Webster changed the meaning of Arrogance to Confidence, I'll have to alert the media. My point where you were wrong, since you want to call it that, is that OP's opponent probably had no humility and that's why he was a sore loser, as you so eloquently put it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Its a common mistake. The difference between arrogance and confidence is how the person viewing it feels about themselves. Thats about it.

As for the guys lack of humility, I can count on two fingers the games I ever left early without giving my opponent the chance to gracefully accept or decline my surrender. So I dont think this has anything to do with humility. Its just immaturity. A guy who can't handle losing is just immature. I get not liking it. I get not seeking defeat. But i mean that is just kind of rude.

Touche. Most of the people where I play are really cool and respectful, but I know one guy in his 40's who is absolutely fine if hes beating the pants off you, but the second you start winning, he turns into TFG and a Rules Lawyer. Plus, he likes to run all spam armies and has 3+ fully painted Knights.

Caveat: I haven't read pages 2-4.

Real talk: Were you smelling fresh, looking good, taking care of that personal hygiene?

That would be the only reason I would forfeit turn one. If I project out what at least an hour of standing near smelly dude is actually going to be like and the cost benefit analysis isn't working-cash in your chips and dip.

So, after doing that self analysis, I would either shower or get better 40k friends.

Pretty sure this wasn't a personal hygiene problem.

 moonpie wrote:
Caveat: I haven't read pages 2-4.

Real talk: Were you smelling fresh, looking good, taking care of that personal hygiene?

That would be the only reason I would forfeit turn one. If I project out what at least an hour of standing near smelly dude is actually going to be like and the cost benefit analysis isn't working-cash in your chips and dip.

So, after doing that self analysis, I would either shower or get better 40k friends.

On the contrary! Had just showered before heading to the store, shaved and everything! Maybe I overdid it and he thought I was trying to pick him up?

 kingbobbito wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Get a "I forfeited to Dark Angels" tshirt and make him wear it.
Never play him again otherwise.

This just made my night

Also, he's currently one of the only people I can play. When the weather gets bad like now not as many people make it out in the evenings as their drive might not be as easy as mine. Since he was the only 40k guy at the store tonight I figured hey, maybe he'll be reasonable for once.

I think I'm going to start playing with the heroclix guys on Tuesday nights.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, now I'm starting to wonder, is my army actually that looked down upon? We can be competitive too ya know

Dude I have this kind of player in my group. He rear ended my ork apoc tank in a game of apoc where we where team mates. He had to shoot his ordanance eventhough he knew it would kill the tank.

So i assaulted his assassin and killed that one off. A 5 buck model made him rage quite and got him a black eye.... not for rage quitting but throwing my squiggoth (the little one) on the floor saying you killed my model i break yours.

These guys excist man you just need to know they never ever turn out to be a good opponent

 Xenomancers wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:

Well, that's a loss - not a forfeit

Don't you automatically lose anyways when you start with nothing on the table? Or at any point have no models on the table?

Yes, but that timeless photo is from an edition before that rule.

I think it was the "keep your whole army in reserve" tactic that caused this to become a rule.

 fatty wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Get a "I forfeited to Dark Angels" tshirt and make him wear it.
Never play him again otherwise.

This just made my night

Also, he's currently one of the only people I can play. When the weather gets bad like now not as many people make it out in the evenings as their drive might not be as easy as mine. Since he was the only 40k guy at the store tonight I figured hey, maybe he'll be reasonable for once.

I think I'm going to start playing with the heroclix guys on Tuesday nights.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, now I'm starting to wonder, is my army actually that looked down upon? We can be competitive too ya know

Dude I have this kind of player in my group. He rear ended my ork apoc tank in a game of apoc where we where team mates. He had to shoot his ordanance eventhough he knew it would kill the tank.

So i assaulted his assassin and killed that one off. A 5 buck model made him rage quite and got him a black eye.... not for rage quitting but throwing my squiggoth (the little one) on the floor saying you killed my model i break yours.

These guys excist man you just need to know they never ever turn out to be a good opponent

Why was he not banned from the group/store?

 fatty wrote:


So i assaulted his assassin and killed that one off. A 5 buck model made him rage quite and got him a black eye.... not for rage quitting but throwing my squiggoth (the little one) on the floor saying you killed my model i break yours.

These guys excist man you just need to know they never ever turn out to be a good opponent

Wowa. Fer serious? Lame.

kingbobbito wrote:

 moonpie wrote:
Caveat: I haven't read pages 2-4.

Real talk: Were you smelling fresh, looking good, taking care of that personal hygiene?

That would be the only reason I would forfeit turn one. If I project out what at least an hour of standing near smelly dude is actually going to be like and the cost benefit analysis isn't working-cash in your chips and dip.

So, after doing that self analysis, I would either shower or get better 40k friends.

On the contrary! Had just showered before heading to the store, shaved and everything! Maybe I overdid it and he thought I was trying to pick him up?

You do you then, brother. Let the haters hate, I say.

Jancoran wrote:

 fatty wrote:


So i assaulted his assassin and killed that one off. A 5 buck model made him rage quite and got him a black eye.... not for rage quitting but throwing my squiggoth (the little one) on the floor saying you killed my model i break yours.

These guys excist man you just need to know they never ever turn out to be a good opponent

Wowa. Fer serious? Lame.

Yeah, I would fight this dude. Every time I saw him. Forever.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, I still prefer to see a Turn ZERO loss:

Well, that's a loss - not a forfeit

Don't you automatically lose anyways when you start with nothing on the table? Or at any point have no models on the table?

Yes, but that timeless photo is from an edition before that rule.

I think it was the "keep your whole army in reserve" tactic that caused this to become a rule.

I believe the point of 'all in reserves' armies like that was you essentially wasted your opponent's first two turns, and then with your t5, 3+ save, highly mobile army, choose the most advantageous space to roll them onto the board and start causing trouble.

 kingbobbito wrote:

On the contrary! Had just showered before heading to the store, shaved and everything! Maybe I overdid it and he thought I was trying to pick him up?

Oh, for a moment i thought you meant 'overdid with shaving'.

Baby, you can smash my tau anytime. Seriously, sometimes you can tell you are about to get your ass kicked, and it sounds like he's just the not the type that can have fun with it. I have definitely had moral victories while completely getting my ass kicked, just because I managed to FINALLY kill whatever murdered me. I have fun doing such things, though.

Munga wrote:
Baby, you can smash my tau anytime. Seriously, sometimes you can tell you are about to get your ass kicked, and it sounds like he's just the not the type that can have fun with it. I have definitely had moral victories while completely getting my ass kicked, just because I managed to FINALLY kill whatever murdered me. I have fun doing such things, though.

Agreed. In 6th, right after the Eldar 'dex had landed I went to a friendly, charity, team event. Me and the ringer (I let my partner pair up with a pal of ours when we got there, and was going to just sit it out when one of the organizers decided to cobble together a rhino/salamander list) put to together a fun "friendly" list. I had brought roflstomp WS list for anyone needing a force to play, and a pretty fluffy Cato Drop List. So using our Cato Drop force and Sally Rhinos we had a great old time, barely winning most games in fun, but close matches. When we get to the final table... its long ways deployment and we get the "attack" side of a defend/attack mission. Facing us is a fully optimized, allied TauDar list with 2 Riptides and 4 WS +a Wraithlord plus all the regular cheese those lists used to have.

Whatever, we're screwed... go for the moral victory... kill the HQs and MCs.... lose because its inevitable. We got all the MCs (I think) and 1 HQ and got tabled by turn 5. It was a blast! We didn't get bitter about it (though did needle the other team a bit about what "friendly list" meant to them). We even went so far as to ask the other team to undo some of their movement so that we could show them a better trick with their drone squads and using their extra movement and pointed out that they shouldn't charge one of my units as that was silly when they could gun it down.

They won, we got 3rd, all were friends and I hope to see them later this year at the same event again.