Hello everyone,

Daily dakka reader and semi regular poster.

I purchased four Zuzzy Mats from Zuzzy Miniatures (owner James Hubbs) end of June 2014. I have used Zuzzy Mats at my local gaming club and liked the product, particularly because it lends to my interest in painting everything I use verses using ready made products. I researched Zuzzy Miniatures before purchasing the four mats (at approximately $185 Canadian) and noticed they had longer shipping times than advertised but that generally people received their mats in 3 to 4 months at the latest. Boy did I make a big mistake. Now it is 7 and will be 8 months shortly since placing my order. I have tried contacting them multiple times via email and their own discussion forum and even James Hubbs facebook account. In total I received one reply in November via email saying my order would dispatch in a few weeks and then.....nothing.

Since then I have frequently questioned Zuzzy Miniatures about their business practicess on their own forum and have asked for a refund with no response whatsoever. What takes the cake is that given Zuzzy when actually rarely replying to customers has stated they are behind on production of mats/filling orders I have come to find out James Hubbs is now trying to become an author and to write novels. I interpret this as spending his time writing instead of getting his original business Zuzzy Miniatures caught up on orders that have been paid for. Admittedly I have contacted James directly on his science fiction author facebook page asking about my order and questioning his venture given he has not fullfilled prior obligations. In typical Zuzzy or James style it gets deleted with no response...

Typically I like to support smaller companies offering unique products to the hobby. It's unfortunate that my experience with Zuzzy has made me now greater appreciate larger companies that offer actual customer support and have a brand they have built and would not easily drop into the gutter.

I will share some links to consider below for those of you thinking of purchasing from Zuzzy Miniatures, but things in retrospect I should have considered-

- No phone number to contact the company

-Bad better business bureau rating (its an F)

-Their own discussion forum which reflects their lack of even a smidge of customer service

I have created a facebook community site titled "Author James Hubbs aka Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam"
https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=913523275348434&tsid=0.9585783390793949&source=typeahead

Links-

Zuzzy Miniatures praise and complaint page-
http://zuzzy-wargame-miniatures.blogspot.ca/p/zuzzy-miniatures-forum_11.html

Better Business Bureau (Albany, Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse NY Regions)
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/Business-Reviews/miniatures-collectors/zuzzy-miniatures-in-chittenango-ny-235969068/

James Hubbs Facebook page
https://m.facebook.com/AuthorJamesHubbs?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FAuthorJamesHubbs

I placed an order on June 25, 2014, have not yet received anything. I did get an email from them in Nov 2014 about how behind they were and to be patient. And they said they were working June orders at that time. And so for the last few months been looking for any sign of life from them. :(

I very much get the impression that there is a gap in the market here for a company that's willing to take on production of the mats without the delay.

majorhavok wrote:
I placed an order on June 25, 2014, have not yet received anything. I did get an email from them in Nov 2014 about how behind they were and to be patient. And they said they were working June orders at that time. And so for the last few months been looking for any sign of life from them. :(

As you know I am all to acutely aware of your situation so sympathize with your situation. Although what I spent is not a huge percentage of my annual hobby budget $185 CAN is large enough to stress over. I am now resigned to the fact that this won't get resolved as I have publicly called out Zuzzy Miniatures and specifically James Hubbs as the scam artists they are. When James repeatedly deleted my Facebook comments questioning/highlighting his business practices I decided to create my own facebook community raising awareness on this behaviour.

https://www.facebook.com/Zuzzymatsjameshubbs


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 Ketara wrote:
I very much get the impression that there is a gap in the market here for a company that's willing to take on production of the mats without the delay.

I thought quite a bit about that as well. My suspicion is that the new style matts that are like giant mouse pads require much less labor to make at similar pricing. It puts a manufacturer of Zuzzy mat type products at a significant disadvantage if the market prefers the more ready made cheaper to produce mat. That's my take on it anyway. Having said that I prefer a more textured configurable product but not enough to suffer Zuzzy's (James) business practices.

PalmerC wrote:

I thought quite a bit about that as well. My suspicion is that the new style matts that are like giant mouse pads require much less labor to make at similar pricing. It puts a manufacturer of Zuzzy mat type products at a significant disadvantage if the market prefers the more ready made cheaper to produce mat. That's my take on it anyway. Having said that I prefer a more textured configurable product but not enough to suffer Zuzzy's (James) business practices.

That's the thing though, Zuzzy has had a backlog for the last five years to my knowledge. That tells you that enough people are ordering rubber textured mats, and want them badly enough despite the delays for it to most likely be a viable business proposition. If I had the know-how, I'd probably take a crack at it myself.

It sounds like he's using the 'free revenue' of people paying for product he's not actually producing, to fund his ventures into book writing.

Which is frankly theft.


That other gaming mat company flew up it's own arse as well, didn't it? Sun-something or such.

 Ketara wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

I thought quite a bit about that as well. My suspicion is that the new style matts that are like giant mouse pads require much less labor to make at similar pricing. It puts a manufacturer of Zuzzy mat type products at a significant disadvantage if the market prefers the more ready made cheaper to produce mat. That's my take on it anyway. Having said that I prefer a more textured configurable product but not enough to suffer Zuzzy's (James) business practices.

That's the thing though, Zuzzy has had a backlog for the last five years to my knowledge. That tells you that enough people are ordering rubber textured mats, and want them badly enough despite the delays for it to most likely be a viable business proposition. If I had the know-how, I'd probably take a crack at it myself.

You may very well be right I cannot say I don't know how much of their backlog is due to business verses "distractions." I wholeheartedly agree with you though that a competitor is needed and most welcome by me.


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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It sounds like he's using the 'free revenue' of people paying for product he's not actually producing, to fund his ventures into book writing.

Which is frankly theft.


That other gaming mat company flew up it's own arse as well, didn't it? Sun-something or such.

Yes I believe what Zuzzy Miniatures or James Hubbs are engaging in theft also. I am not speaking from a legal standpoint but James does not meet his obligations of the sale from what he puts on the website. I also think he rely's on the fact that a 40 some odd dollar mat is nothing people would take him to court over and miniature gaming products are likely of no interest to local consumer watch dogs. As far as funding his new venture I do not know but clearly he has people's money at no cost to him to play with.

i put a order with them back in November of this past year. Now you have me wondering if I will ever see my stuff. Wish I knew how to produce game mats, I would be knocking them out left and right.

 Chute82 wrote:
i put a order with them back in November of this past year. Now you have me wondering if I will ever see my stuff. Wish I knew how to produce game mats, I would be knocking them out left and right.

Sorry to hear that I hope you get them soon I truly despise the stuff Zuzzy customers have to deal with.

Wow, a real shame. Those mats look fantastic. I would definetely have ordered one if they were actually delivering.

I had no problem getting my first mat but that was about 3 years ago so I figured I would order another. Guess we will wait and see. If I hear or get anything from them I will let you know

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
Wow, a real shame. Those mats look fantastic. I would definetely have ordered one if they were actually delivering.

There is no doubt it is a quality product. For me what potential customers need to ask themselves is will I get it what Is my recourse if I don't and given the links I shared above am I comfortable with the direction James is going with Zuzzy given he is now occupied elsewhere. That's my opinion at least.

Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

yeah - its probably not enough money to consider pursuing, but there are laws in the US for how long a product can be on "back order" while holding onto the customer's money.

I worked for a well-known fashion retailer's online department and we'd have to cancel backorders if they extended past six months.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

I would significantly disagree with many of your assumptions and if I am criminal of accusing James Hubb of theft when is he criminal for not providing me what I paid for after a year? Ten years?

Really?? The weather in New York has prevented him from sending the order I placed in June? Oh my gosh...
So there is next to zero communication from Zuzzy Miniatures but the principal owner of the company can maintain multiple facebook pages related to his new venture being an author and state he is working on both a novel and mini series but there should be plenty of time for that? Why don't I get to use these kinds of excuses in life?

Sure it was bold of me to directly post to his FB page and write this post but what are my options? Isn't it equally as bold of him to remain completely unaccountable to his customers?

Really?

Yes, really. Unclench a little. You'll live longer.

 Chute82 wrote:
i put a order with them back in November of this past year. Now you have me wondering if I will ever see my stuff. Wish I knew how to produce game mats, I would be knocking them out left and right.

I've done a couple of these sorts...and there isn't really a good way to knock them out. After my best bit of head scratching, there isn't a good way to speed things up without getting "really big" - like factory level big. I don't think there is enough money to do that sort of work.

The process isn't much more complicated than making scenic resin bases - just you are dealing with sizes that make everything more difficult. You are also using a material, which while easier to work with than resin or even silicone, is air cured and releases some rather unpleasant smells while curing. The cure time itself can be several hours per layer - with maybe a half dozen layers needed at a minimum. After that - a lot of heat to vulcanize the rubber to make it durable enough to last (and a 4x8 matt doesn't fit well in the oven...had to use my vacuum table heater).

You could probably do two matts a day in the space of a one car garage - maybe one more, but space for moving, mixing and pouring starts to get complicated. You could get creative with some racks to stack it up - but moving things becomes difficult and access is needed to do the additional layers.

Materials and utilities would quickly eat into your bottom line though if you got too fancy, and I don't know if it would be enough to make up the difference for productivity. Not saying it couldn't be done - just I wouldn't...if for no other reason than customers suck.


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 Swan-of-War wrote:
yeah - its probably not enough money to consider pursuing, but there are laws in the US for how long a product can be on "back order" while holding onto the customer's money.

I worked for a well-known fashion retailer's online department and we'd have to cancel backorders if they extended past six months.

Would need to look into it - but, a lot of states require you to wait until the order is ready to shop to actually bill for the goods.

 Portugal Jones wrote:
Yes, really. Unclench a little. You'll live longer.

Lol I tried that for 7 months but honestly I don't think people should get away with treating other people this way. It comes down to principle I have spent that money several times over on other gaming related products since then. But I don't feel that anyone should have to deal with this kind of business and that is the main reason for me calling them out. It's easy to say "lighten up Francis" when it isn't you.

If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

PalmerC wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

I would significantly disagree with many of your assumptions and if I am criminal of accusing James Hubb of theft when is he criminal for not providing me what I paid for after a year? Ten years?

Really?? The weather in New York has prevented him from sending the order I placed in June? Oh my gosh...
So there is next to zero communication from Zuzzy Miniatures but the principal owner of the company can maintain multiple facebook pages related to his new venture being an author and state he is working on both a novel and mini series but there should be plenty of time for that? Why don't I get to use these kinds of excuses in life?

Sure it was bold of me to directly post to his FB page and write this post but what are my options? Isn't it equally as bold of him to remain completely unaccountable to his customers?

Really?

I think you have probably spent more time worrying about it than it is worth already.

Theft and fraud are very specific terms. One requires him to reach into your pocket, the other would require him to have no intention of ever delivering.

And yes - since June. Again, don't know the guy - don't care one way or the other...but if he had a 6 month backlog in June - he wouldn't even get a chance to get to your order until winter. If the winter months slow down production (as they would unless he is working in a heated space) - the backlog would increase. Based off a quick look, it seems his backlog has been at least 6 months for going on a year and a half (with some going longer than that).

Should he respond? Sure. Has he ever responded? Not really. Zuzzy has had horrible communication since they started up. That it is still horrible isn't evidence of fraud - even if he were to post on his Facebook page every hour of every day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 filbert wrote:
If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

Probably - though like I said...I've looked into the process. It is largely a looser for anyone who wants to get into it at the price point he is doing things. Triple the prices and then you start to get into a realm where it is worth while to loose all your free time - but then again, that would likely take care of the backlog as well.

Just contact your card provider or PayPal and see if you can open a chargeback or PayPal dispute, then never do business with him again.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

I would significantly disagree with many of your assumptions and if I am criminal of accusing James Hubb of theft when is he criminal for not providing me what I paid for after a year? Ten years?

Really?? The weather in New York has prevented him from sending the order I placed in June? Oh my gosh...
So there is next to zero communication from Zuzzy Miniatures but the principal owner of the company can maintain multiple facebook pages related to his new venture being an author and state he is working on both a novel and mini series but there should be plenty of time for that? Why don't I get to use these kinds of excuses in life?

Sure it was bold of me to directly post to his FB page and write this post but what are my options? Isn't it equally as bold of him to remain completely unaccountable to his customers?

Really?

I think you have probably spent more time worrying about it than it is worth already.

Theft and fraud are very specific terms. One requires him to reach into your pocket, the other would require him to have no intention of ever delivering.

And yes - since June. Again, don't know the guy - don't care one way or the other...but if he had a 6 month backlog in June - he wouldn't even get a chance to get to your order until winter. If the winter months slow down production (as they would unless he is working in a heated space) - the backlog would increase. Based off a quick look, it seems his backlog has been at least 6 months for going on a year and a half (with some going longer than that).

Should he respond? Sure. Has he ever responded? Not really. Zuzzy has had horrible communication since they started up. That it is still horrible isn't evidence of fraud - even if he were to post on his Facebook page every hour of every day.

I won't disagree with you that theft and fraud are very specific legal terms. Given though the historical inability to provide a product within clearly stated times on his website (that haven't changed....much) I am comfortable with my language at least.

What I think is a non issue is his backlog (which is an assumption) and the weather which is not relevant to the purchase I made.

Really the biggest problem for me personally is the lack of accountability demonstrated through non responsiveness whether this is long standing or not. And then seeing all the energy put into a new venture while indicating they can't keep up. It's very snake in the grass to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
Just contact your card provider or PayPal and see if you can open a chargeback or PayPal dispute, then never do business with him again.

Can't it was PayPal and during the time when you had only 45 days to start a dispute. It's now 6 months but not grandfathered. I was dumb to order from them and dumb to use PayPal. As far as doing business again....-unclench-

Try contacting PayPal and getting a human on the telephone. See if they can do something for you anyway. Can't hurt to try.

 Azazelx wrote:
Try contacting PayPal and getting a human on the telephone. See if they can do something for you anyway. Can't hurt to try.

Thanks I have done that they can't do anything for me but can investigate Zuzzy.

Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

PalmerC wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

If you simply wanted to highlight the long lead times and lack of communication - that would be one thing (one thing which I don't think really needs it too much - Zuzzy is well known for it)...extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

At worst, they have misleading advertisement. At best, they are woefully optimistic.

The longer lead times aren't really indicative of anything other than longer lead times. Unless corrective action is taken to speed them up - the long lead times should only increase as more customers want the product (which based off from all other data - there are more customers in the market for the product...).

I must be lucky, I ordered a matt that was listed as in stock and got it within 2 weeks. I even got a reply when I emailed him a question. Granted this was 2 years ago though...

Zuzzy has always had a long history of delays, I only ordered the one I ordered because it said it was in stock. There are so many other matts out there nowadays though, if I were to buy a new one I'd probably go elsewhere. The mat looks good all painted up, but there's also some really nice stuff out there that you can get a lot easier. I'd keep bugging your credit card company about it and get them to do a charge back.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

If you simply wanted to highlight the long lead times and lack of communication - that would be one thing (one thing which I don't think really needs it too much - Zuzzy is well known for it)...extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

At worst, they have misleading advertisement. At best, they are woefully optimistic.

The longer lead times aren't really indicative of anything other than longer lead times. Unless corrective action is taken to speed them up - the long lead times should only increase as more customers want the product (which based off from all other data - there are more customers in the market for the product...).

This thread was never stated as a call to everyone that Zuzzy miniatures is engaging in theft in the legal sense or fraud. I only agreed that I believe it to be theft but stated I do not say this in the legal sense and never mentioned fraud. You seem to be focusing not in the original post or what I have been saying but the later. Just because a lack of service and support has been long standing doesn't mean it can't get worse or is acceptable or that "everyone" is aware of it. And lastly that it shouldn't be communicated in public where they do their business (in public.)

PalmerC wrote:
I purchased four Zuzzy Mats from Zuzzy Miniatures (owner James Hubbs) end of June 2014. I have used Zuzzy Mats at my local gaming club and liked the product, particularly because it lends to my interest in painting everything I use verses using ready made products.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

From the Zuzzy Website:
Orders may take 4 to 10 weeks to process and ship. And an additional 1 to 2 weeks for orders outside of the USA.


Zuzzy has had this guy's cash for around 34 weeks...

I call that taking someone's money and not delivering a product. Coupled with an almost total lack of communication, apology or statement.

If I pay for something and someone takes that money from me and does not give me what I paid for, that's theft.

Iam in no rush for my stuff so I will just wait out the storm. I figure with everybody canceling their order mine will just move up the line faster.

 Chute82 wrote:
Iam in no rush for my stuff so I will just wait out the storm. I figure with everybody canceling their order mine will just move up the line faster.

Ha ha! If only you could cancel that would be great. But everyone has their limits and I hope it goes well for you.

PalmerC wrote:
This thread was never stated as a call to everyone that Zuzzy miniatures is engaging in theft in the legal sense or fraud. I only agreed that I believe it to be theft but stated I do not say this in the legal sense and never mentioned fraud. You seem to be focusing not in the original post or what I have been saying but the later. Just because a lack of service and support has been long standing doesn't mean it can't get worse or is acceptable or that "everyone" is aware of it. And lastly that it shouldn't be communicated in public where they do their business (in public.)

I am focused on that because that is what of the thread I take issue with. Like I said - if you wanted to highlight just the bad service you received...more power to you. You agreed with another poster in the thread who called it theft, it isn't theft. It isn't even fraud (yes, I added fraud - because if it were to be a crime that he was committing...that would be the crime, which it isn't).

Crappy service, possibly (probably) false advertisement regarding the production delays.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

PalmerC wrote:
I purchased four Zuzzy Mats from Zuzzy Miniatures (owner James Hubbs) end of June 2014. I have used Zuzzy Mats at my local gaming club and liked the product, particularly because it lends to my interest in painting everything I use verses using ready made products.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

From the Zuzzy Website:
Orders may take 4 to 10 weeks to process and ship. And an additional 1 to 2 weeks for orders outside of the USA.


Zuzzy has had this guy's cash for around 34 weeks...

I call that taking someone's money and not delivering a product. Coupled with an almost total lack of communication, apology or statement.

If I pay for something and someone takes that money from me and does not give me what I paid for, that's theft.

It would be fraud, but more than that - we have seen no evidence that it is either. I have seen no claim from anyone saying they paid and never got their product. Either they get it, eventually or they cancel their order. Until people start saying they never got their order and he kept their money...then it could escalate to fraud.

Communication, apology or otherwise wouldn't be a factor in whether it is or isn't fraud though, merely whether or not the product gets delivered for the payment received. Now, apparently that means at least 37 weeks wait now - but, that long wait alone does not mean fraud either.

Read back two of us haven't gotten our product in 7 months. Just because others have gotten there product in the past doesn't change that. And if you look at the forum on their website we are not alone. I will leave the theft and fraud point with you as I am not concerned about it. Sorry if you take issue with it.

 filbert wrote:
If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

Exalted for Stripes reference

 Swan-of-War wrote:

 filbert wrote:
If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

Exalted for Stripes reference

Ha ha cheers for noticing that image just came to me

Appreciate this being posted ; i was on the verge of getting one of their mats, but was hedging because 4-10 weeks seemed like a long time.

34 is not just a long time, it's an excessively long time. I'll stick with my insulation foam boards for now.

 Haight wrote:
Appreciate this being posted ; i was on the verge of getting one of their mats, but was hedging because 4-10 weeks seemed like a long time.

34 is not just a long time, it's an excessively long time. I'll stick with my insulation foam boards for now.

No problem Haight your not knowing about them having delays this long is further evidence that it's not common knowledge with everyone so I am glad it helps you make your decision.

 filbert wrote:
If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

This would be the appropriate thing to do, so too bad he's not.

I did place a order with them last year, when alot of people were complaining about the delays. It was about a 2-3 mounth wait with no communication before they sent out my mat. They do get sent out, you just have a long wait before you see them show up.

From what I understand one of the things that create the huge delays is that he makes these in his garage, so he only has the room to cast so many of his molds at once, and the rubber he uses has a slow set. It's not just a man power thing, but the space it takes up to make one of these mats.


He need to be more upfront about the wait, or expand to meet market demand.


=/

I would totally order more mats from him, if I could get a realistic estimate on the time for them to be made. The product is amazing.

 Lockark wrote:
I did place a order with them last year, when alot of people were complaining about the delays. It was about a 2-3 mounth wait with no communication before they sent out my mat. They do get sent out, you just have a long wait before you see them show up.

From what I understand one of the things that create the huge delays is that he makes these in his garage, so he only has the room to cast so many of his molds at once, and the rubber he uses has a slow set. It's not just a man power thing, but the space it takes up to make one of these mats.


He need to be more upfront about the wait, or expand to meet market demand.


=/

I would totally order more mats from him, if I could get a realistic estimate on the time for them to be made. The product is amazing.

I am glad this worked out for you last year but many of us have been waiting in excess of 6 months and for me it will soon be 8 months. I have asked for a refund three times and have not gotten a response. If you feel comfortable doing business with a person like this thats up to you. He doesn't say on his website he is a garage operation and falsely states his delivery times.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

PalmerC wrote:
I purchased four Zuzzy Mats from Zuzzy Miniatures (owner James Hubbs) end of June 2014. I have used Zuzzy Mats at my local gaming club and liked the product, particularly because it lends to my interest in painting everything I use verses using ready made products.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

From the Zuzzy Website:
Orders may take 4 to 10 weeks to process and ship. And an additional 1 to 2 weeks for orders outside of the USA.


Zuzzy has had this guy's cash for around 34 weeks...

I call that taking someone's money and not delivering a product. Coupled with an almost total lack of communication, apology or statement.

If I pay for something and someone takes that money from me and does not give me what I paid for, that's theft.

It would be fraud, but more than that - we have seen no evidence that it is either. I have seen no claim from anyone saying they paid and never got their product. Either they get it, eventually or they cancel their order. Until people start saying they never got their order and he kept their money...then it could escalate to fraud.

Communication, apology or otherwise wouldn't be a factor in whether it is or isn't fraud though, merely whether or not the product gets delivered for the payment received. Now, apparently that means at least 37 weeks wait now - but, that long wait alone does not mean fraud either.

That's ridiculous. The OP is someone who has not gotten their product. You're weird slant that 'they'll get them eventually' overlooks the fact that there are lots of people, right now, who have paid for a product and are double or triple the time stated for delivery. According to your logic, if they get the product in some decades to come, that's just fine because it's a delay, despite no communication to that effect ever taking place. You are entirely inferring that it's all just more delay and the seller has not instead decided to keep the cash without fulfilling the obligation of producing a product. In a void without communication from the seller at all, the buyer can be expected to be deeply concerned that a criminal activity has occurred.

If I pay for a product, with a stated delivery time, it's not for the seller to just ignore that delivery time and deliver on a whim... You can split hairs about the legal definition all you want, zuzzy has taken money and failed to fulfill it's end of the unspoken contract between buyer and seller, the company is in breach of it's stated delivery times, by a frankly huge margin. That is taking someone's money and not giving what was understood in the transaction to be the outcome. That is stealing, until the contract is fulfilled and the buyer receives their goods.

If I walk into a butchers, and say 'I'll take a side of beef' and hand over cash, it's not for the butcher to then stop talking to me, walk away and decide he'll hand over what I paid for when he's quite ready, which might be tomorrow, next Wednesday or the year 2250... There exists an unwritten contract between buyer and seller, of what a realistic waiting period is, moreover this company even states it's (highly excessive) waiting times, which it is in clear breach of.

There is no communication or explanation of delay. There is therefore no onus on the buyer to expect delay further than has been stated on the website as turnover time. Therefore, once the turnover time passed, with the seller still in possession of the money, and providing no indication to the buyer of reasons why the stated deadlines have been passed yet still no actual product has been delivered, the seller has effectively stolen from the buyer. Zuzzy is in breach of the FTC's prompt delivery rules, by a country mile.




http://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

http://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules.pdf

That was very well stated much better than I could do thank you very much for the links I am going to look into this further and refer to this info on the facebook group I created.

PalmerC wrote:
He doesn't say on his website he is a garage operation...

Doesn't need to state what is already a known...

Without even bothering to look at his costs - you can run rough calculations based off what is readily available...pretty much any way you slice it, there is no way for it to be economically viable in any other location than a garage (or maybe backyard shop).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's ridiculous. The OP is someone who has not gotten their product. You're weird slant that 'they'll get them eventually' overlooks the fact that there are lots of people, right now, who have paid for a product and are double or triple the time stated for delivery. According to your logic, if they get the product in some decades to come, that's just fine because it's a delay, despite no communication to that effect ever taking place. You are entirely inferring that it's all just more delay and the seller has not instead decided to keep the cash without fulfilling the obligation of producing a product. In a void without communication from the seller at all, the buyer can be expected to be deeply concerned that a criminal activity has occurred.

If I pay for a product, with a stated delivery time, it's not for the seller to just ignore that delivery time and deliver on a whim... You can split hairs about the legal definition all you want, zuzzy has taken money and failed to fulfill it's end of the unspoken contract between buyer and seller, the company is in breach of it's stated delivery times, by a frankly huge margin. That is taking someone's money and not giving what was understood in the transaction to be the outcome. That is stealing, until the contract is fulfilled and the buyer receives their goods.

If I walk into a butchers, and say 'I'll take a side of beef' and hand over cash, it's not for the butcher to then stop talking to me, walk away and decide he'll hand over what I paid for when he's quite ready, which might be tomorrow, next Wednesday or the year 2250... There exists an unwritten contract between buyer and seller, of what a realistic waiting period is, moreover this company even states it's (highly excessive) waiting times, which it is in clear breach of.

There is no communication or explanation of delay. There is therefore no onus on the buyer to expect delay further than has been stated on the website as turnover time. Therefore, once the turnover time passed, with the seller still in possession of the money, and providing no indication to the buyer of reasons why the stated deadlines have been passed yet still no actual product has been delivered, the seller has effectively stolen from the buyer. Zuzzy is in breach of the FTC's prompt delivery rules, by a country mile.

http://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

http://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules.pdf

I don't really think it is a weird slant. It is an informed consumers position. It takes a very long time for stuff to show up from Zuzzy. You will not get communication. You will get your product. It has been that way for years now. If we look at your butcher scenario - I wouldn't have an issue if the butcher did that...let the market sort it out, and likely that butcher wouldn't last too long. Though, to make it more precise - it isn't a slab of beef, it is a rare cut from a minke whale. That butcher is the only butcher who has access to the meat, and many people feel their business practices are worth dealing with.

The stated time frames may seem excessive, but again - there is a reason that there is only one company who produces these on this scale. It is time and space intensive with little financial return at the price point. Granted, if there was no backlog and orders were placed at the maximum or 2 matts per day (allowing for weekends and holidays - maybe 500 a year) then it could be feasible to have a one week turn around on them. Now, hope you don't get sick have to attend funeral or otherwise have anything unexpected ever happen - because as soon as it does, the delays start...

Regarding the FTC - very good. A rule. Not a law. As I had stated from the get go. One thing about an FTC rule is that they have almost no teeth. There is no criminal act going on. Probably the "best" outcome of a thread like this would be that he shuts down entirely. They have no ability to force refunds, they have limited ability to apply fines. The best way for these to shake themselves out is for consumers to make informed decisions.

I don't buy anything based off from what a company may claim (whether it is quality or even delivery estimates). I do a bit of research and then make a determination based off from that. Based off from all accounts, the quality of the product is excellent - that alone might be enough for many people to wait. If you want it tomorrow (or next week or next month...) it probably isn't a good fit for you, that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for a business like that within a market like this.

Your stating what is known is hearsay Sean and how his business circumstances relate to what he says he will provide is irrelevant especially when he provides a terrible service.

I don't care about technical legal terms here. If he takes someone's money and doesn't give them the product he said he would when he said he would and also doesn't respond to any communication or demands for refunds, he is a thief.

He may or may not have violated the criminal code of a given jurisdiction, but that doesn't change the facts of money taken, no product, no response, no refund, 6 months later.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's ridiculous. The OP is someone who has not gotten their product. You're weird slant that 'they'll get them eventually' overlooks the fact that there are lots of people, right now, who have paid for a product and are double or triple the time stated for delivery. According to your logic, if they get the product in some decades to come, that's just fine because it's a delay, despite no communication to that effect ever taking place. You are entirely inferring that it's all just more delay and the seller has not instead decided to keep the cash without fulfilling the obligation of producing a product. In a void without communication from the seller at all, the buyer can be expected to be deeply concerned that a criminal activity has occurred.

If I pay for a product, with a stated delivery time, it's not for the seller to just ignore that delivery time and deliver on a whim... You can split hairs about the legal definition all you want, zuzzy has taken money and failed to fulfill it's end of the unspoken contract between buyer and seller, the company is in breach of it's stated delivery times, by a frankly huge margin. That is taking someone's money and not giving what was understood in the transaction to be the outcome. That is stealing, until the contract is fulfilled and the buyer receives their goods.

If I walk into a butchers, and say 'I'll take a side of beef' and hand over cash, it's not for the butcher to then stop talking to me, walk away and decide he'll hand over what I paid for when he's quite ready, which might be tomorrow, next Wednesday or the year 2250... There exists an unwritten contract between buyer and seller, of what a realistic waiting period is, moreover this company even states it's (highly excessive) waiting times, which it is in clear breach of.

There is no communication or explanation of delay. There is therefore no onus on the buyer to expect delay further than has been stated on the website as turnover time. Therefore, once the turnover time passed, with the seller still in possession of the money, and providing no indication to the buyer of reasons why the stated deadlines have been passed yet still no actual product has been delivered, the seller has effectively stolen from the buyer. Zuzzy is in breach of the FTC's prompt delivery rules, by a country mile.

http://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

http://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules.pdf

I don't really think it is a weird slant. It is an informed consumers position. It takes a very long time for stuff to show up from Zuzzy. You will not get communication. You will get your product. It has been that way for years now. If we look at your butcher scenario - I wouldn't have an issue if the butcher did that...let the market sort it out, and likely that butcher wouldn't last too long. Though, to make it more precise - it isn't a slab of beef, it is a rare cut from a minke whale. That butcher is the only butcher who has access to the meat, and many people feel their business practices are worth dealing with.

An 'informed customer'? It can be strongly claimed that a customer of an online business doesn't require an in-depth knowledge of the frankly terrible shortfalls of this company but can be said to be an informed customer if they take the time to read the statement of expected waiting time on the company's website...

And you not taking issue with a person taking your money and not giving you your end product is your odd business, the rest of humanity has an expectation of product for payment in a business transaction, and entirely within their rights as a consumer to take issue with a 'business' that takes money and does not produce product, within understood and self-established timelines.

Your further suggestion that because this product has some air of exclusivity, it remains beyond the purvey and reach of standard business practice, again, this is daft. Rarity does not suddenly facilitate stealing money and breaching one's own standards of production. The company gave a statement of delivery and then breached it and then refuses to engage with a customer (or perhaps 'victim') who is now without money and without product.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The stated time frames may seem excessive, but again - there is a reason that there is only one company who produces these on this scale. It is time and space intensive with little financial return at the price point. Granted, if there was no backlog and orders were placed at the maximum or 2 matts per day (allowing for weekends and holidays - maybe 500 a year) then it could be feasible to have a one week turn around on them. Now, hope you don't get sick have to attend funeral or otherwise have anything unexpected ever happen - because as soon as it does, the delays start...

Again you're seeking to alleviate blame and you've no leg to stand on.
We don't care how intensive the business is, that's the owner's affair. We don't really care about his or her financial returns for the product, that, again, is their affair. The customer is without their money and without their product yet you're claiming that the owner is 'having a tough time of it' and, again, we don't care. They have taken money and not produced product, even anywhere near their own massive turnaround timeframe. It's inexcusable and here you are trying to excuse it.

And all your smoke and mirrors of funerals and poor returns conveniently ignore the willful lack of communication from the seller.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Regarding the FTC - very good. A rule. Not a law. As I had stated from the get go. One thing about an FTC rule is that they have almost no teeth. There is no criminal act going on. Probably the "best" outcome of a thread like this would be that he shuts down entirely. They have no ability to force refunds, they have limited ability to apply fines. The best way for these to shake themselves out is for consumers to make informed decisions.

If the rules of the FTC are broken, there is room for censure and prosecution. The Rule is not a Law, breaking the rule, however, opens you up to prosecution under Law, something I cannot believe you don't already grasp...

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

I don't buy anything based off from what a company may claim (whether it is quality or even delivery estimates). I do a bit of research and then make a determination based off from that. Based off from all accounts, the quality of the product is excellent - that alone might be enough for many people to wait. If you want it tomorrow (or next week or next month...) it probably isn't a good fit for you, that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for a business like that within a market like this.

Whilst you have the luxary of affording time for a full scale business investigation into any and everything you buy, like some purchasing Columbo, the rest of the consumer world relies on the protections of the law, 'reasonable expectation' and, perhaps especially pertinent in this case, the actual statement of delivery time beyond standard 30 days, by the selling company.

I find your entire commentary in this thread to be summed up as 'it's a great product, you should be thankful your getting it (perhaps) one day and should have carried out an investigation into the company before trusting the company'... Which is victim-blaming, for a would-be customer who took a company trading online at their statement and handed money over in good faith with entirely realistic trade expectations.

If the rules of the FTC are broken, there is room for censure and prosecution. The Rule is not a Law, breaking the rule, however, opens you up to prosecution under Law, something I cannot believe you don't already grasp...

Breaking a rule opens you to a warning (if anyone could be bothered). Following a warning, you get a second warning. Following that, they may decide to file a civil law suit on behalf of the people - but only after a lot of red tape and very high level actions agree to do so (generally involving a vote by the commissioners).

And you not taking issue with a person taking your money and not giving you your end product

No, I do take issue with that - but that is not this.

within understood and self-established timelines.

Which have been well documented to not be accurate for years.

Your further suggestion that because this product has some air of exclusivity, it remains beyond the purvey and reach of standard business practice, again, this is daft. Rarity does not suddenly facilitate stealing money and breaching one's own standards of production. The company gave a statement of delivery and then breached it and then refuses to engage with a customer (or perhaps 'victim') who is now without money and without product.

...what the real rarity (point to another supplier) does grant wide berth. If you want it - you deal with it. If you don't want to deal with it - you won't likely get it. Numerous people have commented that they have placed orders and cancelled them after weeks (or months). Many people feel the wait is worthwhile, and still place their orders.

The reality is that no amount of complaining will change the situation regarding production. An additional reality is that there is not a large number of people doing this work - so, if you were to file complaints and actually manage to get a regulatory body to do something about it...the result would not be lead times dropping from months to days or weeks - rather the loss of a unique product from the market place.

No skin off my back either way, I have the knowledge and capability to do the work myself if I wanted a textured matt...I could have one in a few days time. It would be unfortunate for those who don't have that option.

Again you're seeking to alleviate blame and you've no leg to stand on.

Not at all, there is blame. Blame for poor communication. Probably blame for being over his head. Likely blame for poor business sense (based on the demand and capacity - prices should be higher to get the lead time lower). While unfortunate, not illegal. More than that though, it is an accurate assessment of the likely situation which exists. You don't have to care - but not caring doesn't mean that anything will change - other than the business and the product going away entirely.

Whilst you have the luxary of affording time for a full scale business investigation into any and everything you buy, like some purchasing Columbo, the rest of the consumer world relies on the protections of the law, 'reasonable expectation' and, perhaps especially pertinent in this case, the actual statement of delivery time beyond standard 30 days, by the selling company.

I find your entire commentary in this thread to be summed up as 'it's a great product, you should be thankful your getting it (perhaps) one day and should have carried out an investigation into the company before trusting the company'... Which is victim-blaming, for a would-be customer who took a company trading online at their statement and handed money over in good faith with entirely realistic trade expectations.

And they are worse off for relying on the protections of the law. I would much rather take responsibility for my own choices, and generally speaking I am less often disappointed with the results. And it is victim blaming (in so much as the result is entirely predictable). I have no problem stating, "What did you expect" when you consider a company that has 7 years worth of delays and lack of communication.

Would be nice to be able to cancel I asked for a refund three times. As was stated already James Hubbs circumstances do not matter what he says on his website does. The fact he doesn't change his info is indicative of his motives. As well the lack of communication removed any chance I would be understanding of his circumstances essentially there was no chance of that after December for me. I understand being the devils advocate Sean but really you don't seem to think consumers should have any rights in these situations. Why you would defend someone that clearly feels entitled to people's money without meeting his end of the bargain on his own website is quite baffling. Why you sympathize so strongly with James and show little or no same sympathy for everyone misled by his website and powerlessly dealing with his non responsiveness is quite perplexing to me. But regardless I am at least happy to see that I am not alone in feeling a scam artist like Janes Hubbs should be accountable to his customers.

I know it's little help for those who ordered before paypal's policy update, but I believe the time for making claims has been extended quite a bit. If you ordered in the last while, there may still be time to get out of it.

James Hubbs who runs Zuzzy knows he can't fulfil an order within 6 months and yet he is telling people they'll have the product within half that time. He's not giving refunds nor even answering any communication. He's just taking money and keeping it.

If you can get out, get out before your paypal claim window closes.

I feel sympathy for no one in this situation.

I think he probably should shut down. Probably should have never started up.

I think you probably shouldn't have placed the order.

What you see as a defense of him, is simply explaining the process (and illustration why I can buy other styles of game matts from a dozen different companies - but there is only one who provides this style).

I can't explain your position though. Why would anyone place an order with a company with this history and expect anything other than a repeat of the past to occur?

I can easily explain Lockark's position. He is happy with the product, but not with the long and variable waits...so, he doesn't place another order.

The consumer has all the power when it comes to what companies are successful and which fail. They get to choose who gets their money. That you feel powerless dealing with his non-responsiveness is a bit like me saying I feel powerless talking to a wall. Of course the wall doesn't respond, it never has and never will.

I do of course (and the only thing that I have actually held as a strong opinion) feel that the claims of theft - and now "scam artist" are wrong. That isn't what is going on here, there is no evidence of it being a scam, theft, fraud or anything else. Claiming a crime has happened - especially with regards to a business is dangerous grounds, and while you might not be too happy with the service you have received...it is a real crime in most places (defamation - and it wouldn't be too hard to prove direct harm caused by your statements either).

If I know I'm providing misleading information on my website and I continue to take orders and then just keep the money and not send the product out, what am I?

Scam artist.

I think that's justified. And if I was intending to send the product out at some unknown time in the future and the customer asked for a refund when the delay became longer than I originally said, I'd give a refund. Otherwise I'm just keeping the money that rightfully belongs to the customer. Which would make me what?

A thief.

It's not defamation if it is true is it? We know that he knows his timelines on his website are wrong because he has outstanding orders of longer wait times than he is indicating. We know he has been asked for a refund and just ignored the contact by the customer.

.

Zuzzy Miniatures wrote:ZUZZY Miniatures order confirmation

This was sent to me on September 5th. I ordered because the PayPal account was active again and a number of people were reporting that they were getting their mats. Five months later I've not heard anything, nor have they replied to any of my attempts to contact him.

I will not be ordering product from him in the future, nor will I recommend him to others.

You'd think that being an author (unless that's his name) he'd be capable of at least some level of communication other than nothing.

Wish I had found this before I ordered:
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/Business-Reviews/miniatures-collectors/zuzzy-miniatures-in-chittenango-ny-235969068/

Sean, I hope it's not a breach of rule 1 and if it is I apologize as it was not intended to be, but you're talking absolute and total bollocks. Your whole angle is based on assumption of an intimate knowledge of an online company's practices, practices that don't obey the rules they themselves have cited for their delivery. Your attitude that people 'ought to know better due to the company's previous behavior' is victim blaming.

It's just total bollocks that a company utterly fails to meet it's own deadlines, ignores any sort of communication and then some smart chap like you comes along to tell the people who've paid good money for an item that it's all their own fault for not investigating the company that's taken their money.


Victim blaming bs.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I feel sympathy for no one in this situation.

I think he probably should shut down. Probably should have never started up.

I think you probably shouldn't have placed the order.

What you see as a defense of him, is simply explaining the process (and illustration why I can buy other styles of game matts from a dozen different companies - but there is only one who provides this style).

I can't explain your position though. Why would anyone place an order with a company with this history and expect anything other than a repeat of the past to occur?

I can easily explain Lockark's position. He is happy with the product, but not with the long and variable waits...so, he doesn't place another order.

The consumer has all the power when it comes to what companies are successful and which fail. They get to choose who gets their money. That you feel powerless dealing with his non-responsiveness is a bit like me saying I feel powerless talking to a wall. Of course the wall doesn't respond, it never has and never will.

I do of course (and the only thing that I have actually held as a strong opinion) feel that the claims of theft - and now "scam artist" are wrong. That isn't what is going on here, there is no evidence of it being a scam, theft, fraud or anything else. Claiming a crime has happened - especially with regards to a business is dangerous grounds, and while you might not be too happy with the service you have received...it is a real crime in most places (defamation - and it wouldn't be too hard to prove direct harm caused by your statements either).

And yet "Scam" is my favorite description in regards to Zuzzy or James Hubbs. Stating when to expect your order and continually not meeting that but still taking peoples money knowingly is exactly that in my opinion. And I am not afraid of any implications that statement has.

I dont expect anyone to feel sorry for me but there are basic expectations that a business will communicate with customers around a transaction. Nothing on Zuzzy's website indicates this will not happen when you contact them at their contact information. It is good at least to see you take somewhat of a balanced viewpoint. to a degree. However I feel quite justified calling out James and Zuzzy as I have done and even the one poster on dakka last night indicating they were considering ordering but now finding out matt's take this long will not order is a worthwhile result if it provided him additional info.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Breotan wrote:

Zuzzy Miniatures wrote:ZUZZY Miniatures order confirmation

This was sent to me on September 5th. I ordered because the PayPal account was active again and a number of people were reporting that they were getting their mats. Five months later I've not heard anything, nor have they replied to any of my attempts to contact him.

I will not be ordering product from him in the future, nor will I recommend him to others.

You'd think that being an author (unless that's his name) he'd be capable of at least some level of communication other than nothing.

Wish I had found this before I ordered:
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/Business-Reviews/miniatures-collectors/zuzzy-miniatures-in-chittenango-ny-235969068/

I have found a kindred spirit I think

I know it is very bold but I think that future folks that do business with james as an author need to know where his business ethics moral compass points and that is why I created the facebook community called "Author James Hubbs aka Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam" https://www.facebook.com/Zuzzymatsjameshubbs

Feel free to stop by or like if you want to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:
If I know I'm providing misleading information on my website and I continue to take orders and then just keep the money and not send the product out, what am I?

Scam artist.

I think that's justified. And if I was intending to send the product out at some unknown time in the future and the customer asked for a refund when the delay became longer than I originally said, I'd give a refund. Otherwise I'm just keeping the money that rightfully belongs to the customer. Which would make me what?

A thief.

It's not defamation if it is true is it? We know that he knows his timelines on his website are wrong because he has outstanding orders of longer wait times than he is indicating. We know he has been asked for a refund and just ignored the contact by the customer.

.

Yes I am in agreement that scam artist is appropriate as well frozenwastes

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's ridiculous. The OP is someone who has not gotten their product. You're weird slant that 'they'll get them eventually' overlooks the fact that there are lots of people, right now, who have paid for a product and are double or triple the time stated for delivery. According to your logic, if they get the product in some decades to come, that's just fine because it's a delay, despite no communication to that effect ever taking place. You are entirely inferring that it's all just more delay and the seller has not instead decided to keep the cash without fulfilling the obligation of producing a product. In a void without communication from the seller at all, the buyer can be expected to be deeply concerned that a criminal activity has occurred.

If I pay for a product, with a stated delivery time, it's not for the seller to just ignore that delivery time and deliver on a whim... You can split hairs about the legal definition all you want, zuzzy has taken money and failed to fulfill it's end of the unspoken contract between buyer and seller, the company is in breach of it's stated delivery times, by a frankly huge margin. That is taking someone's money and not giving what was understood in the transaction to be the outcome. That is stealing, until the contract is fulfilled and the buyer receives their goods.

If I walk into a butchers, and say 'I'll take a side of beef' and hand over cash, it's not for the butcher to then stop talking to me, walk away and decide he'll hand over what I paid for when he's quite ready, which might be tomorrow, next Wednesday or the year 2250... There exists an unwritten contract between buyer and seller, of what a realistic waiting period is, moreover this company even states it's (highly excessive) waiting times, which it is in clear breach of.

There is no communication or explanation of delay. There is therefore no onus on the buyer to expect delay further than has been stated on the website as turnover time. Therefore, once the turnover time passed, with the seller still in possession of the money, and providing no indication to the buyer of reasons why the stated deadlines have been passed yet still no actual product has been delivered, the seller has effectively stolen from the buyer. Zuzzy is in breach of the FTC's prompt delivery rules, by a country mile.

http://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

http://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules.pdf

I don't really think it is a weird slant. It is an informed consumers position. It takes a very long time for stuff to show up from Zuzzy. You will not get communication. You will get your product. It has been that way for years now. If we look at your butcher scenario - I wouldn't have an issue if the butcher did that...let the market sort it out, and likely that butcher wouldn't last too long. Though, to make it more precise - it isn't a slab of beef, it is a rare cut from a minke whale. That butcher is the only butcher who has access to the meat, and many people feel their business practices are worth dealing with.

An 'informed customer'? It can be strongly claimed that a customer of an online business doesn't require an in-depth knowledge of the frankly terrible shortfalls of this company but can be said to be an informed customer if they take the time to read the statement of expected waiting time on the company's website...

And you not taking issue with a person taking your money and not giving you your end product is your odd business, the rest of humanity has an expectation of product for payment in a business transaction, and entirely within their rights as a consumer to take issue with a 'business' that takes money and does not produce product, within understood and self-established timelines.

Your further suggestion that because this product has some air of exclusivity, it remains beyond the purvey and reach of standard business practice, again, this is daft. Rarity does not suddenly facilitate stealing money and breaching one's own standards of production. The company gave a statement of delivery and then breached it and then refuses to engage with a customer (or perhaps 'victim') who is now without money and without product.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The stated time frames may seem excessive, but again - there is a reason that there is only one company who produces these on this scale. It is time and space intensive with little financial return at the price point. Granted, if there was no backlog and orders were placed at the maximum or 2 matts per day (allowing for weekends and holidays - maybe 500 a year) then it could be feasible to have a one week turn around on them. Now, hope you don't get sick have to attend funeral or otherwise have anything unexpected ever happen - because as soon as it does, the delays start...

Again you're seeking to alleviate blame and you've no leg to stand on.
We don't care how intensive the business is, that's the owner's affair. We don't really care about his or her financial returns for the product, that, again, is their affair. The customer is without their money and without their product yet you're claiming that the owner is 'having a tough time of it' and, again, we don't care. They have taken money and not produced product, even anywhere near their own massive turnaround timeframe. It's inexcusable and here you are trying to excuse it.

And all your smoke and mirrors of funerals and poor returns conveniently ignore the willful lack of communication from the seller.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Regarding the FTC - very good. A rule. Not a law. As I had stated from the get go. One thing about an FTC rule is that they have almost no teeth. There is no criminal act going on. Probably the "best" outcome of a thread like this would be that he shuts down entirely. They have no ability to force refunds, they have limited ability to apply fines. The best way for these to shake themselves out is for consumers to make informed decisions.

If the rules of the FTC are broken, there is room for censure and prosecution. The Rule is not a Law, breaking the rule, however, opens you up to prosecution under Law, something I cannot believe you don't already grasp...

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

I don't buy anything based off from what a company may claim (whether it is quality or even delivery estimates). I do a bit of research and then make a determination based off from that. Based off from all accounts, the quality of the product is excellent - that alone might be enough for many people to wait. If you want it tomorrow (or next week or next month...) it probably isn't a good fit for you, that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for a business like that within a market like this.

Whilst you have the luxary of affording time for a full scale business investigation into any and everything you buy, like some purchasing Columbo, the rest of the consumer world relies on the protections of the law, 'reasonable expectation' and, perhaps especially pertinent in this case, the actual statement of delivery time beyond standard 30 days, by the selling company.

I find your entire commentary in this thread to be summed up as 'it's a great product, you should be thankful your getting it (perhaps) one day and should have carried out an investigation into the company before trusting the company'... Which is victim-blaming, for a would-be customer who took a company trading online at their statement and handed money over in good faith with entirely realistic trade expectations.

I appreciate your articulation step by step of what a business owner should be obligated to do for their customers and how customers shouldn't be expected to look between the thin lines of what a company clearly states.

I can see both sides here (I ordered from Zuzzy a year ago, and received a mat within like 10 - 12 weeks). 37 weeks is getting a bit insane, as in we should be talking in months, getting close to a year. So, I think saying it's gotten a lot worse is accurate. The communication issue is a problem, as any reasonable business would respond in some manner... not doing so is at minimum extremely unprofessional, and even if it's their MO, not acceptable. I do think he'll deliver, but I was already nervous about ordering when I did, and would definitely not consider doing so now given these kinds of timeframes (and behavior).

To maybe couch how unmotivated he appears to be about communicating in context, back along I sent a message asking to purchase a mat he had in stock.

He would have had my money for the work of replying with a price plus shipping, sending a paypal invoice and sticking it in the mail, almost free money, no production work needed.

Must be 18 months and still no answer!

Told me all I needed.

I agree with Sean that people should use their brains and google-fu before they enter into contract with any company where they are required to pay upfront. That is an advice only, however, and does in no way give excuse for poor or effectively criminal behavior from a vendor.

Also, the fact that a shop needs ages to deliver does not make said vendor a thief or fraudster.

However, it strongly smells of fraud (at least in my part of the world) when you ask for a cancellation and refund due to broken contractual statements (delivery time being one) and you do not get your money back (or, in fact, any response at all). Which seems to be the case here.
There might be other reasons for why the vendor might not respond to the such requests (health comes to my mind) but there is reasonable suspicion for fraudulent behavior and as such I would press charges if the amount was worth it.

It is never dumb to go to a consumers' rights association but I have a strong feeling that they will tell you the same: Write a formal letter (signed for), if no response get a lawyer and have him write a letter, if no response start proceedings. If your case is solid, your lawyers' fees will most likely have to be paid by him in the end.

What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

 Haight wrote:
What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

Haight I am no legal expert but am from the US and live in Canada. My experience is that business disputes are handled in court not by local police. The fact that in my case it crosses international borders even more so. Court fees and other exppenditures are not even worth risking in my opinion at the price point I paid. Now a class action or group effort is potentially another story but in my estimation most people are just hoping to get their mat at James mercy and wouldnt want to rock the boat.

PalmerC wrote:

 Haight wrote:
What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

Haight I am no legal expert but am from the US and live in Canada. My experience is that business disputes are handled in court not by local police. The fact that in my case it crosses international borders even more so. Court fees and other exppenditures are not even worth risking in my opinion at the price point I paid. Now a class action or group effort is potentially another story but in my estimation most people are just hoping to get their mat at James mercy and wouldnt want to rock the boat.

There are absolutely places where commerce crosses into criminality.


You are correct that the justice system is bicameral, there is civil and criminal. However there are places where the two touch. For a manically out-of-scope example, think Enron and / or Bernie Madhoff. People went to jail in those scenarios for what the company did.

So if you want redress for your 40-100 bucks, yes the cops are not going to get it. However if he's out there taking 40-100 bucks from you, and fifty other people, the authorities frown on that.


Also, laws can have civil and criminal implications.



Also, if the point is to get Communication / product / refund - a little visit by the local police department responding to a claim of fraud and / or petty larceny might be just the trick. They will probably only have a very uncomfortable chat with him the first visit, but that might be enough to spur action. Also, just because you're a business (corp, LLC), this does not indemnify you from prosecution if your business breaks a law with criminal implications. Larceny and Fraud certainly both do, with fraud typically being a felony, and larceny being a misdemeanor or felony based on the amount in question (usually to move to larceny or beyond, the threshold is 500, but it can differ place to place).



A class action isn't an option, as the combined worth of all the mats (and therefore the damages, actual and punitive) wouldn't be enough to get a lawyer to sit in a chair, much less try the case. It's not pro-bono worthy because there's no pro publica benefit due to scope or destitution.

Small claims is an option, but the filing fee, your time, and gas alone probably make it not worth it unless you really just want to stick it to him. Also, you can't lump small claims claims together from various parties in most jurisdictions is my understanding, though i may be wrong on this (while i have several law degrees, and studied some aspects of civil, civil litigation was not my focus full disclosure, and no, i am not a lawyer as in admitted to the bar, also full disclosure).

Redress is going to have only a few options: you spur company to act - either refund, or product delivery. You take them to small claims and get recompense, maybe also ask that part of judgement be that respondent pays for the court filing fee. Those are your options if recompense and redress is the desired outcome. You being from canada changes the equation by the way, not sure 100% off the top of my head how that affects things.

I am thinking of starting a "It's 10 PM do you know where your Zuzzy Mat's are" effort where people can put down the date they ordered and see others order dates and get a sense of how many people are waiting. What do people think? I think it might be useful info for people currently waiting and new buyers. Not sure if I should do this directly on their forum (everything I have done so far I included on their forum) or on the facebook community site.

There are absolutely places where commerce crosses into criminality.


You are correct that the justice system is bicameral, there is civil and criminal. However there are places where the two touch. For a manically out-of-scope example, think Enron and / or Bernie Madhoff. People went to jail in those scenarios for what the company did.

So if you want redress for your 40-100 bucks, yes the cops are not going to get it. However if he's out there taking 40-100 bucks from you, and fifty other people, the authorities frown on that.


Also, laws can have civil and criminal implications.



Also, if the point is to get Communication / product / refund - a little visit by the local police department responding to a claim of fraud and / or petty larceny might be just the trick. They will probably only have a very uncomfortable chat with him the first visit, but that might be enough to spur action. Also, just because you're a business (corp, LLC), this does not indemnify you from prosecution if your business breaks a law with criminal implications. Larceny and Fraud certainly both do, with fraud typically being a felony, and larceny being a misdemeanor or felony based on the amount in question (usually to move to larceny or beyond, the threshold is 500, but it can differ place to place).

It did cross my mind to have a word with the local police just to make them aware but that can go a lot of different ways depending on who you speak to I think but it honestly couldnt hurt most likely.

PalmerC wrote:
I am thinking of starting a "It's 10 PM do you know where your Zuzzy Mat's are" effort where people can put down the date they ordered and see others order dates and get a sense of how many people are waiting. What do people think? I think it might be useful info for people currently waiting and new buyers. Not sure if I should do this directly on their forum (everything I have done I have done so far I included on their forum) or on the facebook community site.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haight wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Haight wrote:
What i don't understand is if after a reasonable time frame (if eta is 10-12 weeks, then 37 is no long reasonable), i requested a refund several times, and no response, and no communication, why have the authorities not been involved ?

Good synopsis of Fraud: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=785 (Full disclosure, the word "intentional" opens up some interesting debate, however even if the didn't originally "intend" to defraud, i think we go back to willful and intentional with the radio silence and the unreasonably long period of time, and most importantly, the ignoring of demands for refunds. That last one in particular think renders any argument of "there's no intent to deprive, so no fraud" moot immediately).

Good synopsis of petty larceny (which most mats would fall under) : http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1526


Because i'll be honest. At week 20 i would have had enough of zero communication, and would have started demanding a refund, with a follow up a week later. At week 22 I would have had a lawyer friend write a certified letter. At week 24 the police would be involved, and i would be resigned to make myself as much of a nuisance as humanly possible. Twice the established lead time with absolutely no communication is being more than understanding in my book.


Also the whole "caveat emptor laissez faire" argument is complete horsegak. It's understandable if it takes time. A lot of time. Stop advertising it takes less, and communicate with your customer. It is not reasonable to take someone's money, go thrice the lead time, have complete radio silence, and then get all fething asshurt when the consumer thinks that something is rotten.

Haight I am no legal expert but am from the US and live in Canada. My experience is that business disputes are handled in court not by local police. The fact that in my case it crosses international borders even more so. Court fees and other exppenditures are not even worth risking in my opinion at the price point I paid. Now a class action or group effort is potentially another story but in my estimation most people are just hoping to get their mat at James mercy and wouldnt want to rock the boat.

There are absolutely places where commerce crosses into criminality.


You are correct that the justice system is bicameral, there is civil and criminal. However there are places where the two touch. For a manically out-of-scope example, think Enron and / or Bernie Madhoff. People went to jail in those scenarios for what the company did.

So if you want redress for your 40-100 bucks, yes the cops are not going to get it. However if he's out there taking 40-100 bucks from you, and fifty other people, the authorities frown on that.


Also, laws can have civil and criminal implications.



Also, if the point is to get Communication / product / refund - a little visit by the local police department responding to a claim of fraud and / or petty larceny might be just the trick. They will probably only have a very uncomfortable chat with him the first visit, but that might be enough to spur action. Also, just because you're a business (corp, LLC), this does not indemnify you from prosecution if your business breaks a law with criminal implications. Larceny and Fraud certainly both do, with fraud typically being a felony, and larceny being a misdemeanor or felony based on the amount in question (usually to move to larceny or beyond, the threshold is 500, but it can differ place to place).

It did cross my mind to have a word with the local police just to make them aware but that can go a lot of different ways depending on who you speak to I think but it honestly couldnt hurt most likely.

I accidentally ninja edited you btw.


It does not hurt to make the call and see what they say. I find that if you are polite, and explain a scenario with no hyperbole or exposition, and answer their questions honestly, most officers are usually very helpful.


While not a true apples to apples example, this has been used to great effect with egregious scammers on Bartertown. This isn't the 100% same, because its technically a business entity (even if a sole proprietorship, or LLC, or whatever his one man show is incorporated under), however, but i doubt it could hurt. The police are not going to say "Whoa whoa whoa, who do you think i am, HEY TOM! get a load of this guy, he wants me to go talk to a business!"

Ha Ha you never know though Haight.. I am not anti authorities by any means but calling international to a local jurisdiction about a transaction that in American dollars is about $165 they would likely consider somewhat petty. But I am not going to push the point because who knows you may be right.

PalmerC wrote:
Ha Ha you never know though Haight.. I am not anti authorities by any means but calling international to a local jurisdiction about a transaction that in American dollars is about $165 they would likely consider somewhat petty. But I am not going to push the point because who knows you may be right.

This is true ; in your situation, it sucks because to even start making international calls, the costs are going to rack up, and quickly mount to the point of "no longer worth it". And this is absolutely a "risk vs. reward" thing. I know most Canadians live within 30-50 miles of the border ... do you have a friend in NY state (or any state for that matter... I sholudn't assume the closest US state is NY) that you could visit, and would let you use his cell phone, etc ? I know its a long shot, but that would be a legit way to defer the costs. Then you could buy your bud lunch for using up his minutes.

You could see if his local PD has an 800 (toll free) number. Those usually work internationally.... i think.

Another option is to contact your police dept., explain the issue, and see if they will contact his local PD on your behalf. Two things here: 1) i'm 100% ignorant of canadian law past their international law treaties which are not applicable. 2) This wouldn't work in the states. The local PD would tell you to contact his local PD, particularly if it was across state lines. So this might be a goose chase, in all fairness. However, ruling out options hurts no one.

PalmerC wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I did place a order with them last year, when alot of people were complaining about the delays. It was about a 2-3 mounth wait with no communication before they sent out my mat. They do get sent out, you just have a long wait before you see them show up.

From what I understand one of the things that create the huge delays is that he makes these in his garage, so he only has the room to cast so many of his molds at once, and the rubber he uses has a slow set. It's not just a man power thing, but the space it takes up to make one of these mats.


He need to be more upfront about the wait, or expand to meet market demand.


=/

I would totally order more mats from him, if I could get a realistic estimate on the time for them to be made. The product is amazing.

I am glad this worked out for you last year but many of us have been waiting in excess of 6 months and for me it will soon be 8 months. I have asked for a refund three times and have not gotten a response. If you feel comfortable doing business with a person like this thats up to you. He doesn't say on his website he is a garage operation and falsely states his delivery times.

It feels abit like you are trying to attack my personal charater with that post, and I do not appreciate it.

I was just sharing my personal experience from when I ordered a mat from him around this time last year. I was actully given a free display board mat by him for the wait I had and a hand written and signed note appologizeing for the wait. That was what happened for me.

I shared my experience because it seems to imply that the wait times have gotten much worse in a very short period of time, and is concerning.

like I said in my post. I wouldn't order from him agien, till these issues are resolved. The wildly inaccuret manufactureing times are the biggest issue hands down. But I don't think he is a crook.


edit/P.S.
I love my zuzzy mat, and rolling it out for infinitiy games. But when people ask me if they should get a zuzzy mat also, I am alot of times hesitant to advise it because of the issues with zuzzy. F.A.T. mats are now what I look to for alot of my gameing needs.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

...

At best, they are woefully optimistic.

You know that people go to jail for fraud after being "woefully optimistic" all the time, right?

It feels abit like you are trying to attack my personal charater with that post, and I do not appreciate it.

I was just sharing my personal experience from when I ordered a mat from him around this time last year. I was actully given a free display board mat by him for the wait I had and a hand written and signed note appologizeing for the wait. That was what happened for me.

I shared my experience because it seems to imply that the wait times have gotten much worse in a very short period of time, and is concerning.

like I said in my post. I wouldn't order from him agien, till these issues are resolved. The wildly inaccuret manufactureing times are the biggest issue hands down. But I don't think he is a crook.


edit/P.S.
I love my zuzzy mat, and rolling it out for infinitiy games. But when people ask me if they should get a zuzzy mat also, I am alot of times hesitant to advise it because of the issues with zuzzy. F.A.T. mats are now what I look to for alot of my gameing needs.

Sorry that was not at all my intent we all have to feel comfortable with who we do business and you already have experience with Zuzzy so it's up to you what your comfort level is. Also I acknowledge that all the info i presented is up to the individual who is going to buy from Zuzzy as to whether they believe it as evidence of Zuzzy's business performance. Essentially it's your opinion as to what your going to believe. I am assuming that is the part of my post you refer to? I shared in my first post a lot of info if despite that you are comfortable its up to you and not a reflection of character. I can definitly see how you could interpret what I said differently. Cheers

Another local player besides myself also got a zuzzy mat last year, and loves it. However, we both have the same reservations that Lockark said, that the wait time (while considerable) wasn't nearly what it seems to be now. It was already unnerving enough with how long it was with no communication, although with Paypal's 180 day challenge window it'd be a lot easier to get your money back if ordering now (although less likely that you'd actually get a mat, seemingly).

Also, PalmerC just a forum etiquette note, it'd be better not to quote huge blocks of text just to add a few sentence reply (much easier to converse if you only quote something that you're directly replying to / only if it's needed).

It's a shame their service is so bad, as i really would love to buy one. They are reasonably costed for what is a durable and awesome looking gaming surface.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

If you simply wanted to highlight the long lead times and lack of communication - that would be one thing (one thing which I don't think really needs it too much - Zuzzy is well known for it)...extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

At worst, they have misleading advertisement. At best, they are woefully optimistic.

The longer lead times aren't really indicative of anything other than longer lead times. Unless corrective action is taken to speed them up - the long lead times should only increase as more customers want the product (which based off from all other data - there are more customers in the market for the product...).

Misleading advertising is a form of fraud.

If he promises a product, and promises shipping of that product within a certain time-frame, in the USA you have the expectation that part of what you are buying is the time it takes to get you the product (this is why businesses are allowed to charge more for expedited shipping, and why often businesses will include free shipping for products that are not time-dependent).

Product delivery is considered to be a part of business, and a product ordered might be necessary for the buyers to operate their own business.

And there is a statute of limitations on this that means the OP needs to get in gear, as after a year or two (depending upon the amount) you lose the right to make a claim against them.

Failing to promptly ship, if a shipping time is listed is a form of fraud.

MB

 RiTides wrote:
Another local player besides myself also got a zuzzy mat last year, and loves it. However, we both have the same reservations that Lockark said, that the wait time (while considerable) wasn't nearly what it seems to be now. It was already unnerving enough with how long it was with no communication, although with Paypal's 180 day challenge window it'd be a lot easier to get your money back if ordering now (although less likely that you'd actually get a mat, seemingly).

Also, PalmerC just a forum etiquette note, it'd be better not to quote huge blocks of text just to add a few sentence reply (much easier to converse if you only quote something that you're directly replying to / only if it's needed).

That's how I would feel as well if that was my experience. I also still play bolt action and other games on the zuzzy mat's at my gaming club. Just because I have a problem with James Hubb's and Zuzzy Miniatures it doesnt effect my view on the quality of the product or whether I will utilize them when available. Thanks for pointing that out I changed recent posts.


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Something I would just like to mention is that whether it comes off this way or not I do not begrudge folks that have had good experience getting their products from Zuzzy miniatures in the past, present, or those waiting for mat's optimistically currently. I am not on a take no prisoner mission to get James Hubbs. I do have a problem as I mentioned with both Zuzzy and James Hubbs and what I believe to be the current deficiencies of his business practices.

I am also at this point not about just trying to get my money back. I do appreciate some of the advice I have been given and I may be following up on a couple of things pointed out to me recently. But the issue of my money and the issue of raising awareness and the extent of the problems to others are two different things to me and will take a different life of their own as how they get resolved in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

And there is a statute of limitations on this that means the OP needs to get in gear, as after a year or two (depending upon the amount) you lose the right to make a claim against them.

Failing to promptly ship, if a shipping time is listed is a form of fraud.

MB

Is this something done outside the courts or where do you start the process?

thanks

Since you are in Canada ask your local RCMP how you go about instituting wire fraud charges (since I assume that you conducted the business over the internet in Canada).
If you want to file suit then you should consult an attorney in Zuzzy's local area. You may be able to find someone who will work on contingent fee service or you can always add the legal costs to your suit.

Thanks but I won't be going through any attorney's lol not worth it. Perhaps I paid $189 to create the "Author James Hubbs and Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam" facebook community ...

At least file a complaint with the BBB. I know that you said that they already have an "F" rating then other people can see that they are still earning that "F".

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
At least file a complaint with the BBB. I know that you said that they already have an "F" rating then other people can see that they are still earning that "F".

Oh yes I already did that.

Just to interject ; statute of limitations in the united states depends on jurisdiction. I'm not an expert on NY legal code, but the smallest statute of limitations i've ever seen in my area is 3 years. I do believe there's more than enough time ticking away.

Again, could be different in New York.


Not saying it does, but if in NY legal code failing to ship within stated lead times is a type of fraud, that could be a felony (if not in NY state due to the amount, possibly Federally, which is a consideration too). I looked into it a little, but not having been involved in any kind of law in NY like i was in my home area, i don't feel comfortable even layman interpreting their state code.

Also echo the sentiments about a lawyer being involved = not fiscally worth it. If you have a friend that's a lawyer and will write a letter for you on your behalf, go for it. However you may have to be willing to back up that bark with some bite (meaning small claims).


I will once again reiterate my stance that a call to his local PD to stop by and have a chat with him is probably the single best chance to spur him to action. There just isn't much civil legal remedy here beyond small claims, and that gets tricky given the international situation (cost, etc.... most small claims courts are only good up to claims of 2500 ... a lot, given the cost of the Mat, but calls, travel, lodging, filing fee, copying, etc, to the states from canada can add up quickly, and even if you ask for that remediation back, there's no gauarantee you'll get it from the judge).


Really, hopefully James is reading this and just makes contact, promises delivery, and makes good on delivery. I don't think anyone really wants to see things get ugly with Zuzzy, as despite being terrible to their customers, they do make a kick ass product.

I think we're looking at another case of a garage manufacturer who's gotten in over his head. Started off with the capabillity and idea of a really cool thing he could do, had it take off, but because of the scale of operations, carries it all on his own shoulders. So if he spent all of his time working on the mats, he could start making his way through the backlog, but especially if it's something he thinks of as more of a side hobby than an actual business, all the time and work it'd take away from his life is more than he wants to give.

Also, if the money from Zuzzy as a business was not kept properly seperated from personal finances, that's another unfortunate amatuer complication.

I often wonder how much money this guy has lost due to his poor business practices?

 Haight wrote:


Really, hopefully James is reading this and just makes contact, promises delivery, and makes good on delivery. I don't think anyone really wants to see things get ugly with Zuzzy, as despite being terrible to their customers, they do make a kick ass product.

I find that prospect highly unlikely (making contact.) Without personally knowing him I can only go with what I have seen to date. From what I have seen it's a person that makes it a point to either not be contacted (no phone number) and generally doesnt respond to emails. I am not the only one to try and reach him by facebook without response. Yet he does interact on facebook for his author sites and has activity on those with people. But no activity essentially on his Zuzzy Miniatures facebook site (to speak of) or his Zuzzy discussion forum. So what should I gather from that? Well that he really doesnt want to talk about/support Zuzzy miniatures but is interested in becoming an author. As an aside I am not aware that he is published but he refers to himself as an author. Not really sure if anyone can just be an author if they feel like it or if being published first is the relevant factor. But back to my point I dont really see any real interest from James Hubbs or anyone else at Zuzzy (the email I received in November was from someone else) to build or support the business. In general he doesnt seem like a very normal person as generic and non descriptive as that sounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Portugal Jones wrote:
I think we're looking at another case of a garage manufacturer who's gotten in over his head. Started off with the capabillity and idea of a really cool thing he could do, had it take off, but because of the scale of operations, carries it all on his own shoulders. So if he spent all of his time working on the mats, he could start making his way through the backlog, but especially if it's something he thinks of as more of a side hobby than an actual business, all the time and work it'd take away from his life is more than he wants to give.

.

This could very well be a case or a component of it. What's unfortunate is he doesnt clue his customers into any of the issues or problems he has and doesnt change the delivery time info etc to inform us. Because of this the reasons behind what he does (or really doesnt do) become less important to me than the fact that he is just doing horrible business that is more of a scam than a reputable operation.


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 Chute82 wrote:
I often wonder how much money this guy has lost due to his poor business practices?

Hard to say but I do know he has $189 CAN of mine without doing anything, enough of those transactions and it could sound like a sweet deal to some.

My mat took 5 months to arrive same exact issues with communication.

they gave me a BONUS for the long wait ...

and 11x14 inch piece of a mat... ?? not sure what use that would have to anyone.

by that point i had already discovered FAT mats so its just sitting around now.

 tenebre wrote:
My mat took 5 months to arrive same exact issues with communication.

they gave me a BONUS for the long wait ...

and 11x14 inch piece of a mat... ?? not sure what use that would have to anyone.

by that point i had already discovered FAT mats so its just sitting around now.

That's what i got also. It's meant as a roll up display board.

Because of their terrible wait times no sane tournament player would bother trying to order one normally.

 tenebre wrote:
My mat took 5 months to arrive same exact issues with communication.

they gave me a BONUS for the long wait ...

and 11x14 inch piece of a mat... ?? not sure what use that would have to anyone.

by that point i had already discovered FAT mats so its just sitting around now.

Those Fat mats look good I have seen a number of similar products. I wasn't really interested in the mouse style matt initially but given the whole Zuzzy experience I will likely in the future just buy this kind of matt.

Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

 Chute82 wrote:
Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

my FAT mat arrived 5 days after i placed the order. so pretty fast. they already have them made unless it says out of stock on the website.

 Chute82 wrote:
Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

There's a signifgant difference between an established company that is offering a printed product, and one that requires manual casting for every part of its sole product line.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Is there much of a wait on the fat mats? Dealing with zuzzy makes you a little gun shy

There's a signifgant difference between an established company that is offering a printed product, and one that requires manual casting for every part of its sole product line.

I agree with this except that Zuzzy is an established company. The information I saw showed James Hubbs in business since 2007. Whether it is 7 or 8 years you have to be established by then. But the differences are not just the type of product. It didn't take me long when looking at frontline gaming's website to see they have a phone number you can call (shocking ) and if you look at their presence on their website it is much more current and updated. No comparison really.

 Portugal Jones wrote:
Also, if the money from Zuzzy as a business was not kept properly seperated from personal finances, that's another unfortunate amatuer complication.

For those with torches and pitchforks, that's actually a great thing, because they can snitch him out to the IRS for a cut of whatever the IRS gets. He'd be looking at serious penalties for Tax evasion. Remember, that's how the Feds got Capone - on tax evasion charges.

A few years ago, I considered a Zuzzy Mat for my gaming table. I looked here and elsewhere and saw the horrible delays and lead times for people to get their stuff. So, I didn't buy anything from them. It appears as though it isn't getting any better, which is a shame. I understand from people that have them that the mats are excellent. However, their poor customer service and horrendous wait for product is a non-starter for me to ever consider them.

At least I have my Secret Weapon Miniatures Tablescapes. Can't wait to prime the darn things. It will eventually be warm here. And dry.

I emailed them twice last week once through PayPal and regular email. Did not get a reply,not that I was expecting one from what other people have said. I looked at their Facebook page a laughed you can tell they never check it. The comments on it are all negative. I have till May to request my money back through PayPal so it's just a waiting game untill then

 Chute82 wrote:
I emailed them twice last week once through PayPal and regular email. Did not get a reply,not that I was expecting one from what other people have said. I looked at their Facebook page a laughed you can tell they never check it. The comments on it are all negative. I have till May to request my money back through PayPal so it's just a waiting game untill then

The funny part of it is James Hubbs is still sharing stuff on his science fiction author page and just ignoring his Zuzzy customers. It's the reason why I created the "James Hubbs aka Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam" Facebook page so future editors or publishing houses can get an insight as to the kind of person they may be dealing with. Good luck with your situation at least you are in paypals window of protection. The only thing you can probably expect is James will ignore PayPal and it will go the distance through the resolution process however long that is now.

James Hubbs aka Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam
https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=913523275348434&tsid=0.9585783390793949&source=typeahead

 kronk wrote:
A few years ago, I considered a Zuzzy Mat for my gaming table. I looked here and elsewhere and saw the horrible delays and lead times for people to get their stuff. So, I didn't buy anything from them. It appears as though it isn't getting any better, which is a shame. I understand from people that have them that the mats are excellent. However, their poor customer service and horrendous wait for product is a non-starter for me to ever consider them.

At least I have my Secret Weapon Miniatures Tablescapes. Can't wait to prime the darn things. It will eventually be warm here. And dry.

Off topic:


Prime in Gesso! Never worry about humidity, weather, or have to deal with outside spraying ever again. Non-toxic, no smell. Stuff is awesome. A nine dollar Bob Ross brand i bought probably 4 years ago still has half the bottle, and if its primed one miniature its primed 2000, and some terrain pieces to boot. It contracts as it dries so if you can still see detail as you prime, you're perfectly fine. Put too much on ? about an hour in hot water and a soft bristle toothbrush, and it'll come right off.

Seriously i'm not sure why anyone primes in spray primer anymore. Gesso is freakin' amazing.

As an update I received word from the better business bureau and this is an excerpt from their email.

"We regret to inform you that the company has not responded to your complaint. If we do receive a response in the future, a copy will be sent to you. You may wish to seek the advice of an attorney, or file a claim in Small Claims Court."

Not surprising really but another example of the non engagement policy of James Hubbs and Zuzzy Miniatures.

On a more positive note I have had a number of folks stop by the facebook community "Author James Hubbs aka Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam" and like and comment. Appreciate the support

 Haight wrote:

 kronk wrote:
A few years ago, I considered a Zuzzy Mat for my gaming table. I looked here and elsewhere and saw the horrible delays and lead times for people to get their stuff. So, I didn't buy anything from them. It appears as though it isn't getting any better, which is a shame. I understand from people that have them that the mats are excellent. However, their poor customer service and horrendous wait for product is a non-starter for me to ever consider them.

At least I have my Secret Weapon Miniatures Tablescapes. Can't wait to prime the darn things. It will eventually be warm here. And dry.

Off topic:


Prime in Gesso! Never worry about humidity, weather, or have to deal with outside spraying ever again. Non-toxic, no smell. Stuff is awesome. A nine dollar Bob Ross brand i bought probably 4 years ago still has half the bottle, and if its primed one miniature its primed 2000, and some terrain pieces to boot. It contracts as it dries so if you can still see detail as you prime, you're perfectly fine. Put too much on ? about an hour in hot water and a soft bristle toothbrush, and it'll come right off.

Seriously i'm not sure why anyone primes in spray primer anymore. Gesso is freakin' amazing.

I don't like Gesso. It's not nearly as smooth as the ones I spray prime. (Sorry for the off-topic).

This should be straight forward:

Call Credit card company, request charge back for failure to deliver, get money back and spend at a games mat company that does deliver.

 notprop wrote:
This should be straight forward:

Call Credit card company, request charge back for failure to deliver, get money back and spend at a games mat company that does deliver.

If only it was that simple. The last part certainly is. But I mentioned earlier in the thread I used PayPal and Zuzzy in the best of circumstances ( even if they made their delivery times) were past the deadline for a PayPal dispute when I ordered. So no real avenues as far as the payment company protection etc

kronk wrote:I don't like Gesso. It's not nearly as smooth as the ones I spray prime. (Sorry for the off-topic).

I like gesso and use it regularly, but I agree. A truly fine primer like Tamiya will always outperform gesso. That said, I prefer gesso as it is often good enough for my "tapletop plus" standard (base colour, 2 shades, 2 highlights, some blacklining). If I was doing display work, I'd go for a high end spray, with an airbrush application of a good primer being the smoothest option.

It's a shame about Zuzzy generally failing as everyone who actually gets a mat from them seems to like it.

Never heard of using gesso to prime, interesting. Let's chat about it in the painting and modelling forum

I still have a half full bottle of GW Smelly Primer, it's like 17 years old, but it still works great when I need some brush on primer. I wish they'd bring it back, it really wasn't all that smelly.

Please move the talk about primers to its own thread, probably in one of the P&M subforums. Thanks

plot twist, he created an alternate account on dakka and is trying to defend himself in this thread through some sort of weird misguided justifications....

i almost bought one, googled a lot and read a couple bad reviews on here, ended up getting a fatmat

sorry that he took you for your money man (which to me, he definitely has)

Alt account? Where? I do not see any white knight posts in this thread.

 Cheebs wrote:
plot twist, he created an alternate account on dakka and is trying to defend himself in this thread through some sort of weird misguided justifications....

i almost bought one, googled a lot and read a couple bad reviews on here, ended up getting a fatmat

sorry that he took you for your money man (which to me, he definitely has)

Are you serious or joking sometimes it's hard to tell if you are serious I would be very surprised since James Hubbs has shown nothing but apathy towards his Zuzzy business since I have ordered from him. Thanks

Oh no I was totally joking, sort of but not really referring to the poster that was saying that: Its not theft or fraud to offer a service, take your money and then never deliver on said service. We could argue word choice all day, but it boils down to he has your money and you have nothing to show for it after 8 months. pretty clear cut to me.

side note: I seriously do want to see how to take this further to get peoples mats/money back.

So as an update I have called a phone number 1 (315) 636-4181 which is listed in some places as Zuzzy Miniatures phone contact. I did this over a couple of days and each time it automatically goes to a busy signal. So again not suprising as this is a company that doesn't want to be bothered with customers. There is at least one person on their forum who has been waiting s year now and I am now over 8 months.
In summary-
No phone
Doesn't respond to email
Doesn't participate in its own discussion forum
Doesn't respond to better business bureau complaints
Doesn't respond to contact via social media
(facebook)
Doesn't provide a refund
Oh and doesn't send you your purchased product
See a trend here?.......
Be very careful doing business with James Hubbs or with his company Zuzzy Miniatures they are a scam and as far as I am concerned he stole my money.

Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

Your calling the wrong number... Here is the correct info

http://start.cortera.com/company/research/k9n9sss0m/zuzzy-miniatures/

 Chute82 wrote:
Your calling the wrong number... Here is the correct info

http://start.cortera.com/company/research/k9n9sss0m/zuzzy-miniatures/

Thanks but that's the number I called just made a typo above same busy signal

As it turns out when I call from my cell and not my home phone I get an automated generic voicemail it must be because my home phone is a private line that it doesn't accept the call either way it's pretty useless it doesn't have a message saying its a business etc.

Not sure how situations like this work in Canada but doesn't contacting law enforcement do nothing?

You don't call the police.. It's a civil issue. Only way to get money is to take him to court via a lawsuit or bother him enough until he pays up.

Most likely you're just out of luck if he really isn't responding. It's a bit sad since I have 6 wonderful zuzzy mats

As other have said it is a civil matter police will not do a thing. The address is provided in info so maybe if you send them a written letter maybe you could get a response.

 Kirasu wrote:
You don't call the police.. It's a civil issue. Only way to get money is to take him to court via a lawsuit or bother him enough until he pays up.

Most likely you're just out of luck if he really isn't responding. It's a bit sad since I have 6 wonderful zuzzy mats

Not correct. He can get law enforcement involved. In the states at least its petty larceny, and it could potentially be fraud.

Please understand United States law and how fraud can be both a civil and criminal issue if you are going to make statements like this.

I am a former paralegal that specialized in criminal law.


If a business takes your money, it's still illegal and you can still go to jail for that / be prosecuted. Look at Bernie Madhoff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chute82 wrote:
As other have said it is a civil matter police will not do a thing. The address is provided in info so maybe if you send them a written letter maybe you could get a response.

Not Correct.

Fraud and Theft / Larceny are criminal matters. Fraud can also be a civil matter.

Agents of company's can and do got to jail for committing crimes. The business is protected, the individual is not, via incorporation.







For those who are interested : its literally one of the first three sentences : "fraud is both a civil and criminal wrong"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud



For those unwilling to read the link:

In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain. Fraud is both a civil wrong (i.e., a fraud victim may sue the fraud perpetrator to avoid the fraud and/or recover monetary compensation) and a criminal wrong (i.e., a fraud perpetrator may be prosecuted and imprisoned by governmental authorities). The purpose of fraud may be monetary gain or other benefits, such as obtaining a drivers license by way of false statements.[1]

Note that in many states unreasonable delivery times of promised goods constitutes Fraud. This is the case in NY state, which is where i'm pretty sure Zuzzy is located.



When these threads come up, people without actual real legal experience should not make grand sweeping generalizations. It doesn't help people, and i can actually hurt them by thinking they have no recourse, when that is NOT true.


-- Haight

Chittenango Police Department
1-315-687-3930
Give them a buzz

Support and condolences to OP.

That people with nothing better to do will defend this Zuzzy company's bad behavior is gross and I am embarrassed for them.

When BTP did crap work for Tenebre it was WWIII up in this forum. Now in this case it is a grey area for some because Zuzzy is *openly* shady with their business practices? Or is it because the OP only spent $185 rather than Tenebre's $2,0000,000,000,00.00.

Also wire/mail fraud may be involved depending on how the purchaser paid for his product. In the US that can bring about federal involvement like the Postal Inspector General.

Is there any update from someone who really got what he ordered?
I placed an order on the 5th of December last year and got/heard (like the OP) nothing ever since.
Maybe there are (more silent) people around who got their stuff?

Haight wrote:*snip long post*

All that is well and good but you also have to have a DA willing to prosecute the case. There's a threshold usually that has to be met before they will even consider it otherwise it's not worth the time and/or cost to prosecute it. Police can put a scare into the guy but if the DA won't take the case, that's about all it is.

 Goatmoerser wrote:
Is there any update from someone who really got what he ordered?
I placed an order on the 5th of December last year and got/heard (like the OP) nothing ever since.
Maybe there are (more silent) people around who got their stuff?

There are people who receive their product a couple of people posted in this thread and in the Zuzzy forum one person posted in Jan I believe that they got there product. There is at least one person who has been waiting for a year. Imo that is great but doesn't help the many people who don't get the mats.

12thRonin wrote:

Haight wrote:*snip long post*

All that is well and good but you also have to have a DA willing to prosecute the case. There's a threshold usually that has to be met before they will even consider it otherwise it's not worth the time and/or cost to prosecute it. Police can put a scare into the guy but if the DA won't take the case, that's about all it is.

I would not agree with this at all.

if the police arrest, and a grand jury turns an indictment, most DA's prosecute.


Honestly, i think what is more likely is the police stop by about the complaint, give him an ultimatum (hey, you've had x months. Your website says 6 weeks. Fill the guys order in 30 days or we're coming back to arrest for violations of the xyz criminal code) business fills complainants order first, complainant tells police all is good, then there is no arrest, police move on.


That is the more likely scenario.


If the police arrest, then a grand jury has to decide whether to indict or not (which is that they do not rule on facts of a case or render verdict at trial, they merely decide "has a crime been committed" based on a much lesser burden of proof), if they return an indictment, the DA is bound to pursue. He may not bring to trial, he may plea bargain, he may do other things. But it's really not up to a DA to pursue a case that has an indictment returned.

Now he could decide that there is not enough evidence to bring before a grand jury for an indictment, in which case that's a whole different story, but that's also "not choosing to prosecute". That's saying "hey, there's not enough evidence to add this to a grand jury's docket for indictment", which is to say there's basically no proof at all.

Because to quote the Honorable Sol Wachlter, you can indict a ham sandwhich if you want to.


(edit: minor bit of clarity for readers who might be legal-ese laymen).

 brendan wrote:
Support and condolences to OP.

That people with nothing better to do will defend this Zuzzy company's bad behavior is gross and I am embarrassed for them.

When BTP did crap work for Tenebre it was WWIII up in this forum. Now in this case it is a grey area for some because Zuzzy is *openly* shady with their business practices? Or is it because the OP only spent $185 rather than Tenebre's $2,0000,000,000,00.00.

I don't think anybody in the thread is defending Zuzzy,

we all agree it's a pretty rubbish way to run a business, and a pretty rubbish way to treat customers (if you can't keep up with demand shut your website until you catch up)

Where the disagreement lies is some of us believe Zuzzy is just terribly terribly inefficient, and unwilling to communicate, but will, eventually probably deliver the mat(s) ordered (which may well be long after the need/desire for it is gone). Nothing to do but keep bothering them or try civil proceedings if you're got time and money to spare

Others think that Zuzzy is deliberately pulling in money while never intending to fulfil the order. This might also give the option of going for law enforcement, but whether they'd be interested, or take the view above? who knows until somebody tries it

I don't think anybody in the thread is defending Zuzzy,

we all agree it's a pretty rubbish way to run a business, and a pretty rubbish way to treat customers (if you can't keep up with demand shut your website until you catch up)

Where the disagreement lies is some of us believe Zuzzy is just terribly terribly inefficient, and unwilling to communicate, but will, eventually probably deliver the mat(s) ordered (which may well be long after the need/desire for it is gone). Nothing to do but keep bothering them or try civil proceedings if you're got time and money to spare

Others think that Zuzzy is deliberately pulling in money while never intending to fulfil the order. This might also give the option of going for law enforcement, but whether they'd be interested, or take the view above? who knows until somebody tries it

There was some defending at the begining to middle of the thread which doesn't bother me it actually brought up some good points of discussion. But the point of the post is that Zuzzy is getting worse. Historically people eventually received their mats after awhile but now we have folks at a year with no communication. In these cases I am of the opinion that they took our money and we may or may not see anything from it and that its a scam as James Hubbs is basically choosing to do whatever he wants at his discretion he's basically a petty thief in my opinion. I also think some people may continue to get their mats but a lot of us do not. Imo a thief isn't a thief because he steals from everyone you only have to do it once.

Should never take up orders you cannot do, doubt anyone will complain if you said due to backlog we will not be taking orders for a few months so we can clear it.

If you took money, its a contract of sorts to do the job paid for.

Plus reputation is everything to small/online business, stuff posted online, stays online even years later.

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

Yes, but first they need to have the knowledge and skills to do the manufacturing setup, design and prototype the mats, and then start making and selling them, probably putting the work to setting up their own small business in the process.

With Tablescape tiles, Fat Mats, and all the other alternatives, you'd have to have a great idea and a passion to see it through to even consider that kind of effort. We weren't quite so spoiled for choice when Zuzzy first hit the table.

The zero communication is the biggest problem. The only reason I know James Hubbs is still alive is because he updates his personal Facebook account daily. If you want a good laugh check out zuzzy miniatures Facebook account and read the comments. I did the charge back through PayPal and got my money back. Figured I could spend the money on something else

I think I'm outside the chargeback timeframe. I filed a paypal dispute anyway but they make it harder if it isn't eBay related purchase.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

Yes, but first they need to have the knowledge and skills to do the manufacturing setup, design and prototype the mats, and then start making and selling them, probably putting the work to setting up their own small business in the process.

With Tablescape tiles, Fat Mats, and all the other alternatives, you'd have to have a great idea and a passion to see it through to even consider that kind of effort. We weren't quite so spoiled for choice when Zuzzy first hit the table.

It's the same process you would use to cast a resin senic base. Sept your casting it out of rubber, and instead of a base it's a 4x6 table top.

It's not that it's hard to make a zuzzy mat. It's that the moulds must be MASSIVE. The logistics of the casting and storage space is kinda a nightmare once you start thinking about it. Really he should just sold the rights, moulds, and masters to someone eals who can deal with it long ago.

One thing I came across recently that was fascinating was James Hubbs Twitter page. He posts comments many times a day related to his writing pursuits. It's s bit baffling that the folks who actually paid him money he is unapproachable to whether it be by phone, email, social media, or his discussion forum. I appreciate those that have shown support on the facebook community site exposing James as a scam artist.


https://mobile.twitter.com/psyphi

https://m.facebook.com/Zuzzymatsjameshubbs?ref=m_notif¬if_t=page_new_likes&actorid=630649749

What a sleaze.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What a sleaze.

I couldn't have said it better myself

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

I'm sure some one will

Tyron wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

I'm sure some one will

I doubt it.

Aside from the post above describing how all of it is easy, except for all the hard parts, first you need someone who wants to do this.

Then you need to get someone to design the mats, make the master mold, and then you need space to make them.

Zuzzy has amply demonstrated why this is a project that well exceeds what can be done with a one man garage operation, so you're looking for someone who wants to found their own small company (with all the difficulty that comes attached to that) to make gaming mats. In a market that has become much more spoiled for choice than when Zuzzy first came onto the scene.

It's not impossible, but I find it rather unlikely.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

Tyron wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

I'm sure some one will

I doubt it.

Aside from the post above describing how all of it is easy, except for all the hard parts, first you need someone who wants to do this.

Then you need to get someone to design the mats, make the master mold, and then you need space to make them.

Zuzzy has amply demonstrated why this is a project that well exceeds what can be done with a one man garage operation, so you're looking for someone who wants to found their own small company (with all the difficulty that comes attached to that) to make gaming mats. In a market that has become much more spoiled for choice than when Zuzzy first came onto the scene.

It's not impossible, but I find it rather unlikely.

I don't think you will ever seen a mat like the zuzzy ones. Printing neoprene mats in China then selling them is a lot less work.

I'm looking into which materials to use, although I have the graphic work and manufacturing set up. It's just one of the many projects I need to find the time to release.

Which is the whole problem with Zuzzy - it's too much for time for one man to support as his side business, and why anyone who tried to take Zuzzy's place would need to form a small company to handle it.

Surprising to me that existing small companies in the gaming community haven't already begun producing them, there are several competing in the 2d gaming mat arena, you'd imaging one or two might branch out into the 3d ones.

2D game mats are infinitely simpler to make.

It's a matter of scale - making your own bases or 28mm scale models is relatively easy. Be able to design, mold, and cast something in a 2'x2' 4'x4' or 6'x4' is a lot harder to do than people seem to be appreciating, which is a big reason why Zuzzy fell apart.

I can completely appreciate the difficulty in manually producing large latex gaming mats. And I agree many folks seem to think it should be easy to do. However my beef isn't related to this at all. Once you know your operational constraints you should set your price and conditions around the sale accordingly (i.e. 4-10 weeks delivery.) then if you cannot meet those conditions work with your existing customers to make it right and change the conditions to something you can meet for future sales. I know I know mr obvious... I don't think James Hubbs is beyond understanding this I think he is just operating with a really twisted morale compass to treat paying customers as he does.

From the Zuzzy Miniatures website blog

ZUZZY comes clean . . . an open letter to the community

Greetings ZUZZY customers, gamers, crafters, general hobbyists. Thank you so much for allowing us to be a part of your hobby experience. It isn't often that we get a chance to communicate so directly, but today, we have been given a moment in time to address the community with truth and directness.
Please allow us a moment of your time to apologize for a few things.

1. For our failure to meet your expectations . . . expectations we generated by a promise to deliver our product in a timely manner.
2. For our failure to communicate adequately.
3. For waiting so long to do so.

The reasons are many and convoluted, fraught with twists and turns, and unexpected pitfalls. The results have been unbearable for you the consumers, and also for Jim and myself as the producers. We promised the product within a four to twelve week period depending on location and items ordered. We have failed for many of you, and we are sorry for your inconvenience. That failure at this time has translated to a ten month wait for some of you. Many of you have decided that is too long.

Over the past seven months you expressed your concerns. Early on we regularly corresponded in emails. We made promises and predictions which we truly believed were accurate. Throughout 2014 unexpected events took place, causing us to stumble. They were personal events that had injurious effects on ZUZZY's production. The word went out that we were ignoring you. And our silence generated distrust. Many demanded their money back, and rightly so. Payments came in, payments were withdrawn. Jim and I tried to pay back as many as we could, promising delivery to those willing to wait.

Unfortunately our word was undermined by unforeseen events in our lives. It appeared to the community that we were scoundrels. This has brought us to this juncture. Now, we willfully place ourselves in a light that most are not willing to stand beneath. The judgment of the community.

You are the reason that we can exist at all. This we are quite aware of. We do this work because we are one of you. We are gamers—not unscrupulous individuals planning our next heist. We are just two guys, artists, that had a vision. We implemented that vision and then faced some very awful personal tragedies that we will not discuss here. These hazards are the reason we put forth our apology.

Today we will discuss the crazy uncle, chained in the attic, that no one really likes to talk about. Everyone metaphorically has someone or something in their lives that brings this shame. It can come in many guises and try as we might, hiding it away only creates larger and larger problems for the individual. So, today, since we have time, this will be the second point of our entry.

ZUZZY Miniatures is struggling. Yes, there it is. The truth and our shame—Kevin and Jim are exhausted.

Your responses may be as follows: Who cares! I ordered my stuff 10 months ago and I still don't have it. You took my money 10 months ago and I still have nothing! My son's birthday is tomorrow—I ordered this two weeks ago and I expect this on my son”s birthday table! My store ordered seventy mats from you two weeks ago and my customers want their mats! I am spamming your email every two minutes until you answer why my mat is not sitting on my front door! I ordered a month ago it's not here and I expect your answer immediately! All of these complaints are valid.

Your demand for this product has outstripped our ability to produce it on a timely basis.

The logical response to this is: Well, you should be so lucky! Who bemoans or complains about such a boon?

So, before I continue, let me say this: In our seven year history, we have never taken someone's money and willfully not supplied them with the product they purchased. Our crime is that the customer had to wait until we could produce it for them.

Yes, let me be clear. The customer had to wait until we could produce the product for them.

In the early days, we had a surplus of every item. But as time went on, our surplus was depleted. And today, there is no vast warehouse where our mats and resin pieces reside, waiting to be hand-picked off the shelves for our faithful customers. Like many small businesses, we have become a product on demand operation. This is due to four factors: demand, space, time, and human labor. And this has been our crime—our inability to immediately meet demand. (And today, being unable to answer all of your inquiries.) In our wildest dreams we never knew how much of an impact our product would have on the gaming community. Up until now it's been a powerful, wonderful experience, and we love you all for it.

But today everything must change. Our gaming family needs to understand what we require from you as a customer, so no more injury can be incurred by either party. You or us. Success can be a tenuous thing, but success laced with practicality makes for a stable foundation. We need your help in order for us both to thrive. What we require is simple. We truly know what you require from us—a wonderful product delivered to your door when you need it. In the latter we have failed and this is where we need your help. We require your patience and understanding, and most of all your forgiveness. We truly do want you to have the best experience from ordering our product, after all, it's what benefits us both.

And here is where we come clean: At this juncture, if you order our product, you must understand that we can not provide it within a few days. This has become an impossibility.

Our policy is 4 to 12 weeks. This already translates to as long as three months wait time. We've always been straight forward about this. And in the past we've been able to meet that proviso with a few bumps along the way. But today, right now, things have become more difficult for us, and as many of you know, to our chagrin, you are having to wait longer. We are sorry for this, and as always trying to work on this problem and solve it forever. But like anything worth waiting for this too will take time.

Our promise to you: We will fill your order. At this time, you will have to wait longer—perhaps a few days over the proviso, perhaps a few weeks, perhaps a few months. If you can not wait please do not order. When a time arrives when we can fill your orders faster, we will let you know this, by expressing this on our media outlets. Until that time, understand that you will have to wait. We have no choice in this matter.

For those that can not wait and have moved on, you require your money back. We also promise that we will return it to you. We want you to be happy. But because of our current situation, this will also take some time. If you feel you must bring legal action against us, that is your choice. You have every right to that action. We want you to be happy. You are the community that made us.

Now again what we ask of you: Patience, and understanding, for this condition we find ourselves in. Please do not order and then pull your money back out. You can not imagine how much damage this causes. Only order if you love the product and can wait for it. Please.

Again, what we can promise at this time:

To continue producing ZUZZY mats and accessories.
To solve our production problems as quickly as possible.
To notify you weekly on our media outlets where we are in our production schedule. (This will include regular updates on Facebook and our other websites.)

To do our utmost to get those who have already made purchases their product. And resolve any outstanding charge backs by disgruntled customers.
To usher in a new era for ZUZZY and its valued customers.
We fully understand the commitment you have made by entering into a purchase contract with us. Your money has been hard earned and you've chosen us as part of the joy you receive from your free-time and entertainments. You have earned this and you have earned the best possible experience for your labors. And this is why we want you to enter this fully knowing our commitment, what we can do and what we can not do. So you can make your purchases from us in an informed manner.
It has been a joy being a part of the gaming community and being allowed to participate in its ever growing expansion. We hope to be able to participate for years to come, and appreciate greatly all you have done as a community by welcoming ZUZZY within it.

Best Regards Always!
Kevin and Jim

Wow that was an extremely long winded apology apparently written by someone in the mid-19th century England.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
Wow that was an extremely long winded apology apparently written by someone in the mid-19th century England.

At least he is not blaming it on floods....

At a guess - that was not his first attempt at writing an apology for this mess, with the result of becoming stilted in the process. (Since I often write that way myself, I can well understand the mechanism....)

That said - he is accepting responsibility, if belatedly.

He is not just closing up shop and leaving people without their goods.

It looks like the best thing to do is not order from them until they catch up with back orders.

If it sounds like I am being overly forgiving... I should mention that I am the proud owner of a Heresy Dragon. It took years for them to get my dragon to me! (For the record - one thing that the folks at Heresy never failed on was communication. There were forum posts chronicling every painful step of the process. Also - for the record - it is an awesome dragon, even if it nearly drove him crazy.)

The Auld Grump

What a load of bs. "Your order will be fulfilled. Maybe tomorrow, maaaaaaaybe next week or maybe, just maybe a few months from now."

Zuzzy should stop taking orders until they are caught up. Also the money seems like it's being spent before the order is fulfilled which is not good practice. That money should be in their PayPal account untouched until the order is shipped.

I thought it a good idea to update the thread since this is the first formal communication to its customers since I ordered my mats last June. I did end up getting a refund so my situation is resolved. However don't think it was as simple as asking for one lol.... It took a lot to get my money back. I do think any attempt at communication and owning up to this with some sort of plan is better than it has been which is complete radio silence up until now.

Unfortunately the letter to customers is ineffectual and in the scheme of business is garbage.

They saw that on-hand stock was diminishing, no steps were taken.

On-hand stock ran out, no steps were taken.

They have not taken (or failed to mention) any steps to be able to increase production capacity:
This is a decision to customer detriment they have chosen.

"Our policy is 4 to 12 weeks", have to assume that means "lead time".
Is this prior policy or new?
So is the policy of half up front or the entire price?
Will be difficult with something like PayPal to ask for a refund if they decide to stretch things out further.

"Until that time, understand that you will have to wait. We have no choice in this matter." I claim total BS on this.
There is choice, unless there is zero money to rub together but how can you receive so much money and have this trouble?
Only way I could see this being "real" is they completely messed up on total cost of product to produce vs what was asked for payment.
Some simple accounting math would have figured out that problem and prices should have been bumped accordingly.

"If you feel you must bring legal action against us, that is your choice. You have every right to that action. We want you to be happy. You are the community that made us."
What the heck is this??
I am not sure what message is trying to be said here.
We want you to be happy, wait or sue, whatever floats your boat?
It seems to say that you waiting or suing us makes no difference... what is going on?
Why would anyone place ANY orders from them at this point?

These two items are the most critical right here:

"Again, what we can promise at this time:
To solve our production problems as quickly as possible."
No mention AT ALL of the production problems, how can there be "patience and understanding": fire, flood, theft, vandalism, tooling damage, anything at all some sympathy could be generated, but not with this ineffectual drivel.

"To notify you weekly on our media outlets where we are in our production schedule. (This will include regular updates on Facebook and our other websites.)"
This is where the last forlorn hope for them resides.
If the schedule contains a sequential order with some traceable invoice number and maybe the customer's first name only listed with status I would say they may actually be trying.
I have suspicion their production schedule will be as effective as their recent entreaty to the community.

"Usher in a new era for Zuzzy..." I am just in awe of how misguided / delusional this sounds.

This seems like the same story I have seen a dozen times in recent years: a small company sees unexpected demand and struggles with rapid growth to meet demand. You can see kickstarter threads for similar cases. Managing success is becoming a real problem for cottage businesses in the greater tabletop gaming industry. I hope the guys at Zuzzy can regroup and get things back on track by the end of the year. I really feel for them, struggling because their product is too well loved for them to get it to every prospective customer.

What makes me less empathetic is that they saw the problem coming months ago when their stock levels shrank. I do not understand why Zuzzy would not prepare for the coming storm and alter their process to accommodate larger demand. I understand that they must have physical bottlenecks with molds but everything else should be reorganized to maximize mold time.

I am inclined to agree with above posters. Zuzzy needs to stop taking orders until they have 100% compliance with their 12 week order policy and they can handle several more orders coming in at once. It may be a death knell to the company to cut off income but in that apology I saw no change mentioned and no reassurance of improvement. They are going to get nowhere juggling schedules and hoping orders come in at a pace they can handle. Their production must change somewhere.

They should shut up shop and take no more orders til they get their act together and give people their money or the mate they OWE them

I applaud them (finally) coming forward and saying something.

That said, there's a lot, a WHOLE LOT, of very thinly veiled customer blaming in that open letter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PalmerC wrote:
I thought it a good idea to update the thread since this is the first formal communication to its customers since I ordered my mats last June. I did end up getting a refund so my situation is resolved. However don't think it was as simple as asking for one lol.... It took a lot to get my money back. I do think any attempt at communication and owning up to this with some sort of plan is better than it has been which is complete radio silence up until now.

Could you expound PalmerC ? If you feel comfortable. I'd be interested in just how much time / effort it took to get a refund. Did you end up having to get LE involved (i'm thinking no)?

 Haight wrote:
I applaud them (finally) coming forward and saying something.

Problem for me is that they say very little of how they plan to remedy things other than the obvious "we are making your stuff".

That said, there's a lot, a WHOLE LOT, of very thinly veiled customer blaming in that open letter.

The only blaming they make to customers is (my reading between the lines): Only order stuff with the understanding that things could take a quarter of a year to be made and even then with no guarantees and do not ask for refunds: it somehow REALLY messes us up."

No commitment to a plan of making it better.
A whole bunch of reading between the lines (paraphrase/conjecture):
"We love you community but will do nothing to better meet your needs."
"We want your understanding and tolerance of how we have decided to run our business at our convenience, not yours."
"We may decide to experience the occasional communication black-out with no explanation."

They really are not serious about continuing the business or are in some really bad denial.
If swamped for orders, ramp-up production, increase product billable price, do good customer service or the orders will slow down well enough.

This is just not the behavior of someone who is... well in their thinking.

 Haight wrote:



Could you expound PalmerC ? If you feel comfortable. I'd be interested in just how much time / effort it took to get a refund. Did you end up having to get LE involved (i'm thinking no)?

A lot of what I did is documented on this thread one of the biggest things was creating a facebook community which I put content on for a couple of months. Most if not all the content I put up has since been removed once I was refunded. I have let another member of the site take over as admin and do with it what he wishes. One of the biggest things was a social media campaign to raise awareness on Twitter. I have removed everything I did once I was refunded. I don't want to R eally go into any more specifics because it's just dirty laundry at this point but I should not have had to take things where I felt I needed to but in the end I did in order to get resolution on my purchase. I'm just glad it's all over and that they are taking positive steps at least in the communication area for those still waiting.

Be Warned:

If you get into the business of making stuff for the TTG hobby, expect Dreadful Personal Experiences. This is the excuse I've seen for every single delayed/complained about scheme.

And this...

Your responses may be as follows: Who cares! I ordered my stuff 10 months ago and I still don't have it. You took my money 10 months ago and I still have nothing! My son's birthday is tomorrow—I ordered this two weeks ago and I expect this on my son”s birthday table! My store ordered seventy mats from you two weeks ago and my customers want their mats! I am spamming your email every two minutes until you answer why my mat is not sitting on my front door! I ordered a month ago it's not here and I expect your answer immediately! All of these complaints are valid.

...really grinds my gears.

I haven't ordered anything from these clowns, nor would I, but who, really, has been expecting their order in two days? Who, really, would have ordered 70 mats and expected delivery in 14 days? Just further highlights the contempt they seem to have for their clients.

I'll keep Rule Number 1 in mind and just finish with: What a cretinous pair.

Just how long can those mats take to make? I'd been wanting to order a couple for a while, but then the monster delays started to I held off. I get when a labor of love becomes a chore though, it's why I'd never take painting commissions. Maybe they should raise their prices a bit and hire some help? There's clearly a huge demand.

I see Zuzzy is not at the passive-agressive apology stage in their existence. Seriously guys, at this point, just give a simpler apology and stop taking orders until you're caught up.

In the early days, we had a surplus of every item. But as time went on, our surplus was depleted. And today, there is no vast warehouse where our mats and resin pieces reside, waiting to be hand-picked off the shelves for our faithful customers. Like many small businesses, we have become a product on demand operation. This is due to four factors: demand, space, time, and human labor. And this has been our crime—our inability to immediately meet demand. (And today, being unable to answer all of your inquiries.)

Demand has outstripped their production capacity. That's simple to understand.

However, no where in this rambling, pointless letter did they make ANY commitments to improve. None. No action plan. No mention of hring more people. No mention of HOW they are going to step up production. In fact, they never mentioned increasing production capacity at all.

TLDR for this "Letter to our Customers": Shut up. You'll fething get your gak when we fething make it.


I wouldn't order a fething thing from these tossers. Which is a real shame as the product looks good.

 kronk wrote:
I wouldn't order a fething thing from these tossers. Which is a real shame as the product looks good.

You pointed to the same glaring things missing from their open letter that I did.
I agree with your conclusion because as far as they are concerned: they have committed to doing nothing different.
This whole matter just makes no sense as a business.

What i took from it:

"We have no fething idea how to improve things and we probably won't, so if you order from us suck it up and expect to wait…"


Not the greatest sales pitch in this day and age...

After a 5-month wait (ordered in November), I got my refund thru the Paypal claims process (in April). It was actually quite painless; after I sent Zuzzy a few inquiring emails via the Paypal dispute center that were ignored, Paypal sent Zuzzy a few inquiring emails that were also ignored. Bingo-presto, I got a full refund.

There is a time limit on the Paypal claim resolution aspect (6 months, I think), but it went well for me.

 kronk wrote:

In the early days, we had a surplus of every item. But as time went on, our surplus was depleted. And today, there is no vast warehouse where our mats and resin pieces reside, waiting to be hand-picked off the shelves for our faithful customers. Like many small businesses, we have become a product on demand operation. This is due to four factors: demand, space, time, and human labor. And this has been our crime—our inability to immediately meet demand. (And today, being unable to answer all of your inquiries.)

Demand has outstripped their production capacity. That's simple to understand.

However, no where in this rambling, pointless letter did they make ANY commitments to improve. None. No action plan. No mention of hring more people. No mention of HOW they are going to step up production. In fact, they never mentioned increasing production capacity at all.

What also bugs me is that they gave no real details as to why they failed to deliver. Before coming up with a plan to improve, you also have to identify where you went wrong. Even if the reasons for their problems are personal (death of a family member, longterm illness, divorce, etc.), if you want to start rebuilding the customers' trust you've lost, you have to, above all, be honest. When you've taken people's money, saying "whoopsie, my bad" doesn't cut it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
When you've taken people's money, saying "whoopsie, my bad" doesn't cut it.

Getting closer to the fewest number of words to describe what is wrong with Zuzzy and what they are doing.
"Got money, give no product yet, no damns given."

They won't even respond to my Paypal claim... Amazing decision to buy from these clowns...

 mrshl9898 wrote:
They won't even respond to my Paypal claim... Amazing decision to buy from these clowns...

If your within the six month dispute window you have no problem getting your money back. Zuzzy has recently stated they will give people their money back either way but I suspect if after six months from purchasing the refund would happen when they are ready to ship your order they contact you. They say they are working on last June's order at the moment.

This sucks, I realllllly want one of these mats but definitely don't feel like waiting that long. Im happy I asked about these mats on this forum before I ordered. If anyone has one and is looking to get rid of theres PM me. Looking for a 4x6

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
This sucks, I realllllly want one of these mats but definitely don't feel like waiting that long. Im happy I asked about these mats on this forum before I ordered. If anyone has one and is looking to get rid of theres PM me. Looking for a 4x6

DItto. About a week before i stumbled on this thread (and started contributing), I was on their site and was like "Yup, gonna get one of those."

Glad i saw this trainwreck before i plunked down cash, because patience is not one of my virtues. I get cranky if i don't get my gak at the max end of lead times and i'm not told up front that the lead is extended, why, and what's being done to correct it (which is my construction management professional experience shining through...)

I suspect they have bad cash flow. They are spending the money as it comes in, and need it to keep going, so they keep taking orders.

This can have a few bad effects:

-No raw materials to make things.
-Need to make money some other way to live on, and filling orders takes a back seat.
-Cant pay the part time guy helping me.
-Cant afford postage to ship.
-"I'm broke and depressed,and don't feel like working".

Not taking additional orders would be a good thing..unless that's their only money coming in.

 mikhaila wrote:
I suspect they have bad cash flow. They are spending the money as it comes in, and need it to keep going, so they keep taking orders.

This can have a few bad effects:

-No raw materials to make things.
-Need to make money some other way to live on, and filling orders takes a back seat.
-Cant pay the part time guy helping me.
-Cant afford postage to ship.
-"I'm broke and depressed,and don't feel like working".

Not taking additional orders would be a good thing..unless that's their only money coming in.

Bad cash flow is what I got from zuzzy's letter.

Just received my The Zuzzy mat my wife ordered for me for my birthday last June 7.

LymanAlpha wrote:
Just received my The Zuzzy mat my wife ordered for me for my birthday last June 7.

I guess if you want something for your birthday from zuzzy next year you better order it now

LymanAlpha wrote:
Just received my The Zuzzy mat my wife ordered for me for my birthday last June 7.

Yes a number of people just received June orders and they are working on July and August now. Apparently orders really dropped off last fall so they will probably get those done sooner. It's good they started producing again it's just unfortunate that it had to take this long for them to wake up. After getting my money back I am going with a FAT matt instead.

Too bad. I was looking to order through them. I had no idea
that their process was so borked.

What's crazy is that it's a testament to how GODDAMN GOOD the product is that if they could get back down to legit 4-8 weeks for delivery. I would buy a 4 x 6 or 4 x 8 tomorrow.

But until that's confirmed, there is no way i'm waiting 12 months lead time for anything other than a kidney.

Waiting 6 months for an order would be ok under the communist regime, but what i read in the letter is, send us you money and we will get to it when we feel like it.

Are they still taking orders? That seems crazy. If it's a one man
operation he needs to stop and catch up.

 malfred wrote:
Are they still taking orders? That seems crazy. If it's a one man
operation he needs to stop and catch up.

He needs the cash flow.

 CptJake wrote:

 malfred wrote:
Are they still taking orders? That seems crazy. If it's a one man
operation he needs to stop and catch up.

He needs the cash flow.

So, if nothing changed, his spending is faster than his production.
So when people are not happy waiting a year and a half is when the 17 months or less group lose their money and get no product?
If they commit to no change, they will fail.

Yeah, at some point, the cash will stop flowing and people will
be sitting outside their credit card cancellation windows. No thanks.

 malfred wrote:
Yeah, at some point, the cash will stop flowing and people will
be sitting outside their credit card cancellation windows. No thanks.

I'm already there. :(

Sorry to hear it, dude. I'm sure we all, potential customers,
appreciate you sharing your story.

Well, their website is pretty up-front on their issues and "delays".
The cold nights and heaters being too expensive and hot days and air-conditioning being too expensive is rather scary.

Rather sad, here is the BBB link with their various complaints against them:
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/miniatures-collectors/zuzzy-miniatures-in-chittenango-ny-235969068/complaints/

What I find interesting of having "very little time to respond to emails", if the targets for temperature are so narrow and they are "down" during that time, you would think that would allow more free time to address customer fears or even develop a tracking / queue system to at least to let people understand progress?

Reading everything there does seem bad but somehow the ratio of expense and overhead vs. gross income of product seems to be in error so when you are looking at running out of the raw material to make product with no more money in the bank: this is a catastrophic failure that they should have seen coming.

They will see a huge reduction in sales I am sure so without the incoming money, having spent the prior money, I just do not see them surviving this.

Heaters are expensive? Unless this is a huge warehouse we are talking a couple hundred dollars. A double car garage needs a 30 buck electric heater.
I doubt he is working out of a huge warehouse if it's a one man opperation.
Cooling is more expensive, but a couple window air conditioners go a long way, and only a couple hundred each.

If your entire production line is shut down most of the time for lack of a few hundred dollars in heating/ac, then the business model has a hell of a lot of problems.

 monders wrote:
Be Warned:

If you get into the business of making stuff for the TTG hobby, expect Dreadful Personal Experiences. This is the excuse I've seen for every single delayed/complained about scheme.

That part annoyed me too. Personal tragedy is a legitimate excuse for taking a bit of time off work, but it's not some magic catch-all phrase that allows you to shirk your responsibilities for months on end. Everyone has tragedies, deaths, sickness, people to care for... it happens all the time, but you'd need to be in a pretty bad shape (read: coma, imprisoned in Iran) to not be able to make any kind of arrangements. Yet apparently this happened to both of them!

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, their website is pretty up-front on their issues and "delays".

Rather sad, here is the BBB link with their various complaints against them:
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/miniatures-collectors/zuzzy-miniatures-in-chittenango-ny-235969068/complaints/

.

If you fairly new to this thread then yes the website now has a message to the community on the delays. This was a long time coming it was radio silence about their problems and your order if you were a customer until recently. There are a number of links on the first post to this thread including the BBB link you referenced. I haven't maintained the Facebook community after getting my refund from them. I have handed it off to someone else who is waiting for their order. Zuzzy's latest update indicates they have caught up to August I believe. I know they were pretty close to finishing June when they ramped up production again. It's interesting that they can produce and send July and Augusts orders in a month when considering historical quoted delivery times.

Just looking at the "positive" elements that they are not pretending on their website all is well.

Not typical behavior of the more common rip-off artists.

I am attributing this to poor planning and no head for business.
I have just started getting into mats and rather like them.
Too bad Zuzzy are such a risk, I cannot even look at them.

I hope everyone gets their stuff before these guys run out of money / raw material.
How are they feeding themselves right now??

Yeah, I think I'll wait until they either build up a stock (probably
not economic for them to do so) or someone else produces
something similar (unless it's not a very viable business model,
in which case...)

PalmerC wrote:
Yes a number of people just received June orders and they are working on July and August now. Apparently orders really dropped off last fall so they will probably get those done sooner. It's good they started producing again it's just unfortunate that it had to take this long for them to wake up. After getting my money back I am going with a FAT matt instead.

Still waiting for mine. Ordered early December 2014

 Goatmoerser wrote:

PalmerC wrote:
Yes a number of people just received June orders and they are working on July and August now. Apparently orders really dropped off last fall so they will probably get those done sooner. It's good they started producing again it's just unfortunate that it had to take this long for them to wake up. After getting my money back I am going with a FAT matt instead.

Still waiting for mine. Ordered early December 2014

September 3rd, 2014 is when I ordered mine. That makes me a year late. No email or other contact and I've no idea if they even still have my order on file or not.

I placed an order in August 2014 and still not received anything from Zuzzy Miniatures. They stopped posting updates in June. Does this mean that they have gone to sleep again? Has anyone heard anything?

I assume you guys paid with paypal (correct me if I'm wrong) which now has a 6 month return period. Since that return period would have been in effect for the duration of this thread, why didn't you guys put in for a return at 5 months and 29 days if you didn't get anything yet?

 warboss wrote:
I assume you guys paid with paypal (correct me if I'm wrong) which now has a 6 month return period. Since that return period would have been in effect for the duration of this thread, why didn't you guys put in for a return at 5 months and 29 days if you didn't get anything yet?

Because I ordered before this thread was made?

Right... but my point is that this thread was started within your 6 month refund period for paypal (assuming you paid with that). I'm guessing folks didn't want to lose their "place" in line by panicking or thought "well, I already waited this long and it'll probably happen soon". I guess I'm just too impatient and if I have the chance for a refund on a delayed project then I take it (sadly not the case for the one kickstarter I funded that is 2 years+ behind).

As an update Zuzzy has stopped taking orders on their website in order to get caught up. This should have been done a very long time ago but I am glad they at least came to their senses and stopped taking orders.

Zuzzy shouldnt even be considered "a thing" and just another failed venture.

Yeah, it's a bummer! I got my mat from them, and am quite happy with it, but the delay and the seeming randomness of it (some people waiting well over a year, others like myself getting theirs in not much longer than the projected lead time) is just crazy. I think if they could implement a queue (that caps after a certain number of orders until they're caught up) that would make a lot of sense, since I don't think they can increase production capacity.

In the end, the mats are awesome... but they really need to limit themselves to how many they can comfortably make a month!

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, it's a bummer! I got my mat from them, and am quite happy with it, but the delay and the seeming randomness of it (some people waiting well over a year, others like myself getting theirs in not much longer than the projected lead time) is just crazy. I think if they could implement a queue (that caps after a certain number of orders until they're caught up) that would make a lot of sense, since I don't think they can increase production capacity.

In the end, the mats are awesome... but they really need to limit themselves to how many they can comfortably make a month!

Anyone in the past year that's received a mat is an exception it's not a 50/50 thing at this point. They admitted to not even having latex at points to make mats with or a facility to make mats in cold weather. I don't need to warn people to not buy because now you can't buy their mats thank goodness. As far as the quality I have played on them that's what caused me to initially place my order. After a year of arm wrestling my refund back I am very happy with a FAT mat as an alternative. Front line gaming was great to deal with and I have since purchased a second. All I can say is in the end the vast majority did not receive a mat in the last year so if they open production again buyer beware don't expect anything do your research.

If they don't have cold weather production options, that doesn't bode well since we're in Winter currently.

I know someone that has one in hand and no longer wants it. PM if interested.

You might want to say why they don't want it, in case you don't get any replies.

Fair point! They just moved on to the neoprene gaming mats and don't really see the need for the Zuzzy. It's unused, unpainted and still in the box.

Which style is it? US->EU shipping likely makes it less than worthwhile for me, but still, I'd be tempted...