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Hello everyone,

Daily dakka reader and semi regular poster.

I purchased four Zuzzy Mats from Zuzzy Miniatures (owner James Hubbs) end of June 2014. I have used Zuzzy Mats at my local gaming club and liked the product, particularly because it lends to my interest in painting everything I use verses using ready made products. I researched Zuzzy Miniatures before purchasing the four mats (at approximately $185 Canadian) and noticed they had longer shipping times than advertised but that generally people received their mats in 3 to 4 months at the latest. Boy did I make a big mistake. Now it is 7 and will be 8 months shortly since placing my order. I have tried contacting them multiple times via email and their own discussion forum and even James Hubbs facebook account. In total I received one reply in November via email saying my order would dispatch in a few weeks and then.....nothing.

Since then I have frequently questioned Zuzzy Miniatures about their business practicess on their own forum and have asked for a refund with no response whatsoever. What takes the cake is that given Zuzzy when actually rarely replying to customers has stated they are behind on production of mats/filling orders I have come to find out James Hubbs is now trying to become an author and to write novels. I interpret this as spending his time writing instead of getting his original business Zuzzy Miniatures caught up on orders that have been paid for. Admittedly I have contacted James directly on his science fiction author facebook page asking about my order and questioning his venture given he has not fullfilled prior obligations. In typical Zuzzy or James style it gets deleted with no response...

Typically I like to support smaller companies offering unique products to the hobby. It's unfortunate that my experience with Zuzzy has made me now greater appreciate larger companies that offer actual customer support and have a brand they have built and would not easily drop into the gutter.

I will share some links to consider below for those of you thinking of purchasing from Zuzzy Miniatures, but things in retrospect I should have considered-

- No phone number to contact the company

-Bad better business bureau rating (its an F)

-Their own discussion forum which reflects their lack of even a smidge of customer service

I have created a facebook community site titled "Author James Hubbs aka Zuzzy Miniatures are a scam"
https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=913523275348434&tsid=0.9585783390793949&source=typeahead

Links-

Zuzzy Miniatures praise and complaint page-
http://zuzzy-wargame-miniatures.blogspot.ca/p/zuzzy-miniatures-forum_11.html

Better Business Bureau (Albany, Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse NY Regions)
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/Business-Reviews/miniatures-collectors/zuzzy-miniatures-in-chittenango-ny-235969068/

James Hubbs Facebook page
https://m.facebook.com/AuthorJamesHubbs?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FAuthorJamesHubbs

I placed an order on June 25, 2014, have not yet received anything. I did get an email from them in Nov 2014 about how behind they were and to be patient. And they said they were working June orders at that time. And so for the last few months been looking for any sign of life from them. :(

I very much get the impression that there is a gap in the market here for a company that's willing to take on production of the mats without the delay.

majorhavok wrote:
I placed an order on June 25, 2014, have not yet received anything. I did get an email from them in Nov 2014 about how behind they were and to be patient. And they said they were working June orders at that time. And so for the last few months been looking for any sign of life from them. :(

As you know I am all to acutely aware of your situation so sympathize with your situation. Although what I spent is not a huge percentage of my annual hobby budget $185 CAN is large enough to stress over. I am now resigned to the fact that this won't get resolved as I have publicly called out Zuzzy Miniatures and specifically James Hubbs as the scam artists they are. When James repeatedly deleted my Facebook comments questioning/highlighting his business practices I decided to create my own facebook community raising awareness on this behaviour.

https://www.facebook.com/Zuzzymatsjameshubbs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
I very much get the impression that there is a gap in the market here for a company that's willing to take on production of the mats without the delay.

I thought quite a bit about that as well. My suspicion is that the new style matts that are like giant mouse pads require much less labor to make at similar pricing. It puts a manufacturer of Zuzzy mat type products at a significant disadvantage if the market prefers the more ready made cheaper to produce mat. That's my take on it anyway. Having said that I prefer a more textured configurable product but not enough to suffer Zuzzy's (James) business practices.

PalmerC wrote:

I thought quite a bit about that as well. My suspicion is that the new style matts that are like giant mouse pads require much less labor to make at similar pricing. It puts a manufacturer of Zuzzy mat type products at a significant disadvantage if the market prefers the more ready made cheaper to produce mat. That's my take on it anyway. Having said that I prefer a more textured configurable product but not enough to suffer Zuzzy's (James) business practices.

That's the thing though, Zuzzy has had a backlog for the last five years to my knowledge. That tells you that enough people are ordering rubber textured mats, and want them badly enough despite the delays for it to most likely be a viable business proposition. If I had the know-how, I'd probably take a crack at it myself.

It sounds like he's using the 'free revenue' of people paying for product he's not actually producing, to fund his ventures into book writing.

Which is frankly theft.


That other gaming mat company flew up it's own arse as well, didn't it? Sun-something or such.

 Ketara wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

I thought quite a bit about that as well. My suspicion is that the new style matts that are like giant mouse pads require much less labor to make at similar pricing. It puts a manufacturer of Zuzzy mat type products at a significant disadvantage if the market prefers the more ready made cheaper to produce mat. That's my take on it anyway. Having said that I prefer a more textured configurable product but not enough to suffer Zuzzy's (James) business practices.

That's the thing though, Zuzzy has had a backlog for the last five years to my knowledge. That tells you that enough people are ordering rubber textured mats, and want them badly enough despite the delays for it to most likely be a viable business proposition. If I had the know-how, I'd probably take a crack at it myself.

You may very well be right I cannot say I don't know how much of their backlog is due to business verses "distractions." I wholeheartedly agree with you though that a competitor is needed and most welcome by me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It sounds like he's using the 'free revenue' of people paying for product he's not actually producing, to fund his ventures into book writing.

Which is frankly theft.


That other gaming mat company flew up it's own arse as well, didn't it? Sun-something or such.

Yes I believe what Zuzzy Miniatures or James Hubbs are engaging in theft also. I am not speaking from a legal standpoint but James does not meet his obligations of the sale from what he puts on the website. I also think he rely's on the fact that a 40 some odd dollar mat is nothing people would take him to court over and miniature gaming products are likely of no interest to local consumer watch dogs. As far as funding his new venture I do not know but clearly he has people's money at no cost to him to play with.

i put a order with them back in November of this past year. Now you have me wondering if I will ever see my stuff. Wish I knew how to produce game mats, I would be knocking them out left and right.

 Chute82 wrote:
i put a order with them back in November of this past year. Now you have me wondering if I will ever see my stuff. Wish I knew how to produce game mats, I would be knocking them out left and right.

Sorry to hear that I hope you get them soon I truly despise the stuff Zuzzy customers have to deal with.

Wow, a real shame. Those mats look fantastic. I would definetely have ordered one if they were actually delivering.

I had no problem getting my first mat but that was about 3 years ago so I figured I would order another. Guess we will wait and see. If I hear or get anything from them I will let you know

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
Wow, a real shame. Those mats look fantastic. I would definetely have ordered one if they were actually delivering.

There is no doubt it is a quality product. For me what potential customers need to ask themselves is will I get it what Is my recourse if I don't and given the links I shared above am I comfortable with the direction James is going with Zuzzy given he is now occupied elsewhere. That's my opinion at least.

Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

yeah - its probably not enough money to consider pursuing, but there are laws in the US for how long a product can be on "back order" while holding onto the customer's money.

I worked for a well-known fashion retailer's online department and we'd have to cancel backorders if they extended past six months.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

I would significantly disagree with many of your assumptions and if I am criminal of accusing James Hubb of theft when is he criminal for not providing me what I paid for after a year? Ten years?

Really?? The weather in New York has prevented him from sending the order I placed in June? Oh my gosh...
So there is next to zero communication from Zuzzy Miniatures but the principal owner of the company can maintain multiple facebook pages related to his new venture being an author and state he is working on both a novel and mini series but there should be plenty of time for that? Why don't I get to use these kinds of excuses in life?

Sure it was bold of me to directly post to his FB page and write this post but what are my options? Isn't it equally as bold of him to remain completely unaccountable to his customers?

Really?

Yes, really. Unclench a little. You'll live longer.

 Chute82 wrote:
i put a order with them back in November of this past year. Now you have me wondering if I will ever see my stuff. Wish I knew how to produce game mats, I would be knocking them out left and right.

I've done a couple of these sorts...and there isn't really a good way to knock them out. After my best bit of head scratching, there isn't a good way to speed things up without getting "really big" - like factory level big. I don't think there is enough money to do that sort of work.

The process isn't much more complicated than making scenic resin bases - just you are dealing with sizes that make everything more difficult. You are also using a material, which while easier to work with than resin or even silicone, is air cured and releases some rather unpleasant smells while curing. The cure time itself can be several hours per layer - with maybe a half dozen layers needed at a minimum. After that - a lot of heat to vulcanize the rubber to make it durable enough to last (and a 4x8 matt doesn't fit well in the oven...had to use my vacuum table heater).

You could probably do two matts a day in the space of a one car garage - maybe one more, but space for moving, mixing and pouring starts to get complicated. You could get creative with some racks to stack it up - but moving things becomes difficult and access is needed to do the additional layers.

Materials and utilities would quickly eat into your bottom line though if you got too fancy, and I don't know if it would be enough to make up the difference for productivity. Not saying it couldn't be done - just I wouldn't...if for no other reason than customers suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swan-of-War wrote:
yeah - its probably not enough money to consider pursuing, but there are laws in the US for how long a product can be on "back order" while holding onto the customer's money.

I worked for a well-known fashion retailer's online department and we'd have to cancel backorders if they extended past six months.

Would need to look into it - but, a lot of states require you to wait until the order is ready to shop to actually bill for the goods.

 Portugal Jones wrote:
Yes, really. Unclench a little. You'll live longer.

Lol I tried that for 7 months but honestly I don't think people should get away with treating other people this way. It comes down to principle I have spent that money several times over on other gaming related products since then. But I don't feel that anyone should have to deal with this kind of business and that is the main reason for me calling them out. It's easy to say "lighten up Francis" when it isn't you.

If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

PalmerC wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

I would significantly disagree with many of your assumptions and if I am criminal of accusing James Hubb of theft when is he criminal for not providing me what I paid for after a year? Ten years?

Really?? The weather in New York has prevented him from sending the order I placed in June? Oh my gosh...
So there is next to zero communication from Zuzzy Miniatures but the principal owner of the company can maintain multiple facebook pages related to his new venture being an author and state he is working on both a novel and mini series but there should be plenty of time for that? Why don't I get to use these kinds of excuses in life?

Sure it was bold of me to directly post to his FB page and write this post but what are my options? Isn't it equally as bold of him to remain completely unaccountable to his customers?

Really?

I think you have probably spent more time worrying about it than it is worth already.

Theft and fraud are very specific terms. One requires him to reach into your pocket, the other would require him to have no intention of ever delivering.

And yes - since June. Again, don't know the guy - don't care one way or the other...but if he had a 6 month backlog in June - he wouldn't even get a chance to get to your order until winter. If the winter months slow down production (as they would unless he is working in a heated space) - the backlog would increase. Based off a quick look, it seems his backlog has been at least 6 months for going on a year and a half (with some going longer than that).

Should he respond? Sure. Has he ever responded? Not really. Zuzzy has had horrible communication since they started up. That it is still horrible isn't evidence of fraud - even if he were to post on his Facebook page every hour of every day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 filbert wrote:
If he can't produce enough mats per day to service the backlog then maybe he should, you know, stop taking new orders? Put a notice on the website informing people of that? This isn't a new phenomena with Zuzzy; they have had a reputation for years for being slow. If he can't produce mats in a timely fashion to the extent where orders are piling up around his ears he should either subcontract out, scale up or stop taking orders.

Probably - though like I said...I've looked into the process. It is largely a looser for anyone who wants to get into it at the price point he is doing things. Triple the prices and then you start to get into a realm where it is worth while to loose all your free time - but then again, that would likely take care of the backlog as well.

Just contact your card provider or PayPal and see if you can open a chargeback or PayPal dispute, then never do business with him again.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

If he is located in New York, I would guess the winter climate has a significant impact on how fast mats can be produced...especially given the nature of the work.

In terms of his secondary career - I doubt it would impact the rate of production much at all. I know I have plenty of time to type waiting on resin to cure and other such things...latex takes significantly longer to cure, it isn't like watching it makes it happen any faster.

Of course, deleting the post on his Facebook author page...umm, so would I. Regardless of the validity of your question in regard to Zuzzy - it is irrelevant to him as an author. It would be like if someone would come on this site and make a comment on an air handler or material choice I recommended. Might be valid - entirely irrelevant to the venue.

Granted, their communication sucks. The issue of being a one (or two) man show isn't strictly justification for slow responses to communications (especially given the down time wile the latex cures...). Not sure how many orders they are dealing with - but it would appear that they far exceed their production capabilities (since based off a cursory review of the time to delivery...it has been going up for several years - which would indicate an ever increasing backlog).

I would significantly disagree with many of your assumptions and if I am criminal of accusing James Hubb of theft when is he criminal for not providing me what I paid for after a year? Ten years?

Really?? The weather in New York has prevented him from sending the order I placed in June? Oh my gosh...
So there is next to zero communication from Zuzzy Miniatures but the principal owner of the company can maintain multiple facebook pages related to his new venture being an author and state he is working on both a novel and mini series but there should be plenty of time for that? Why don't I get to use these kinds of excuses in life?

Sure it was bold of me to directly post to his FB page and write this post but what are my options? Isn't it equally as bold of him to remain completely unaccountable to his customers?

Really?

I think you have probably spent more time worrying about it than it is worth already.

Theft and fraud are very specific terms. One requires him to reach into your pocket, the other would require him to have no intention of ever delivering.

And yes - since June. Again, don't know the guy - don't care one way or the other...but if he had a 6 month backlog in June - he wouldn't even get a chance to get to your order until winter. If the winter months slow down production (as they would unless he is working in a heated space) - the backlog would increase. Based off a quick look, it seems his backlog has been at least 6 months for going on a year and a half (with some going longer than that).

Should he respond? Sure. Has he ever responded? Not really. Zuzzy has had horrible communication since they started up. That it is still horrible isn't evidence of fraud - even if he were to post on his Facebook page every hour of every day.

I won't disagree with you that theft and fraud are very specific legal terms. Given though the historical inability to provide a product within clearly stated times on his website (that haven't changed....much) I am comfortable with my language at least.

What I think is a non issue is his backlog (which is an assumption) and the weather which is not relevant to the purchase I made.

Really the biggest problem for me personally is the lack of accountability demonstrated through non responsiveness whether this is long standing or not. And then seeing all the energy put into a new venture while indicating they can't keep up. It's very snake in the grass to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
Just contact your card provider or PayPal and see if you can open a chargeback or PayPal dispute, then never do business with him again.

Can't it was PayPal and during the time when you had only 45 days to start a dispute. It's now 6 months but not grandfathered. I was dumb to order from them and dumb to use PayPal. As far as doing business again....-unclench-

Try contacting PayPal and getting a human on the telephone. See if they can do something for you anyway. Can't hurt to try.

 Azazelx wrote:
Try contacting PayPal and getting a human on the telephone. See if they can do something for you anyway. Can't hurt to try.

Thanks I have done that they can't do anything for me but can investigate Zuzzy.

Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

PalmerC wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

If you simply wanted to highlight the long lead times and lack of communication - that would be one thing (one thing which I don't think really needs it too much - Zuzzy is well known for it)...extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

At worst, they have misleading advertisement. At best, they are woefully optimistic.

The longer lead times aren't really indicative of anything other than longer lead times. Unless corrective action is taken to speed them up - the long lead times should only increase as more customers want the product (which based off from all other data - there are more customers in the market for the product...).

I must be lucky, I ordered a matt that was listed as in stock and got it within 2 weeks. I even got a reply when I emailed him a question. Granted this was 2 years ago though...

Zuzzy has always had a long history of delays, I only ordered the one I ordered because it said it was in stock. There are so many other matts out there nowadays though, if I were to buy a new one I'd probably go elsewhere. The mat looks good all painted up, but there's also some really nice stuff out there that you can get a lot easier. I'd keep bugging your credit card company about it and get them to do a charge back.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

PalmerC wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry to hear it mate. I'd try them again just on the off-chance.

Wish they could but at the same time the money is secondary to me at this point. I understand when folks feel my aggravated vibe from my posts and say just let it go but as a couple of posters indicated this is not new but it has for some gotten worse. I see my letting it go as a win for a company that has built a business model on a foundation of no customer support and not delivering on certain expectations. For now I would like to highlight this so folk can at least understand what they are getting into.

If you simply wanted to highlight the long lead times and lack of communication - that would be one thing (one thing which I don't think really needs it too much - Zuzzy is well known for it)...extending to call it theft and fraud is different.

At worst, they have misleading advertisement. At best, they are woefully optimistic.

The longer lead times aren't really indicative of anything other than longer lead times. Unless corrective action is taken to speed them up - the long lead times should only increase as more customers want the product (which based off from all other data - there are more customers in the market for the product...).

This thread was never stated as a call to everyone that Zuzzy miniatures is engaging in theft in the legal sense or fraud. I only agreed that I believe it to be theft but stated I do not say this in the legal sense and never mentioned fraud. You seem to be focusing not in the original post or what I have been saying but the later. Just because a lack of service and support has been long standing doesn't mean it can't get worse or is acceptable or that "everyone" is aware of it. And lastly that it shouldn't be communicated in public where they do their business (in public.)

PalmerC wrote:
I purchased four Zuzzy Mats from Zuzzy Miniatures (owner James Hubbs) end of June 2014. I have used Zuzzy Mats at my local gaming club and liked the product, particularly because it lends to my interest in painting everything I use verses using ready made products.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Theft and fraud are rather strong words to be tossing about...criminal even...as I have seen, he hasn't gotten to that level. Matts still go out (albeit at a very, very slow pace - found a couple of posts for people who received them as recently as December).

From the Zuzzy Website:
Orders may take 4 to 10 weeks to process and ship. And an additional 1 to 2 weeks for orders outside of the USA.


Zuzzy has had this guy's cash for around 34 weeks...

I call that taking someone's money and not delivering a product. Coupled with an almost total lack of communication, apology or statement.

If I pay for something and someone takes that money from me and does not give me what I paid for, that's theft.