Spin off from another primarch poll thread ...

Ferrus Manus.

Drowning a Living Metal worm (possibly a Necron construct or C'tan shard) bare-handed by holding it under lava (bare handed) is fething amazing.

Hell, just being able to put your bare hands in lava is amazing.

Batman

thing is we don't know eneugh about the orgins of some primarchs compared to others. taking Ferrus Manus' acheivement just for example, we know he did that, but we don't know eneugh about say... Dorn's past to know that he say... (just for example) strangled a blood thrister with his bare hands at the age of 6.

Now, what we DO know is that MOST of the Primarchs conquered their home world (all save Angron, Angron is the "failure" here although I'd note he also had it a lot harder then most of the other Primarchs).


That said from what little we do know, wasn't Gulliman beginning to actually expand his influance beyond his homeworld? if that is the case Gulliman seems to have achomplished the most via the one easy source of comparison.

that said... at the same time... he had it EASY in comparison to many others. Gulliman landed on a civilized world with a solid technology base, and was raised by a compassionate man whom could really enchourage his talents. there's no reason he SHOULDN'T have had some of the best achomplishments. Contrast this with Angron, whom drew the short stick in this regard.

Guilliman

He ran a space empire even before the Emperor found him.

Yeah Guilliman had an empire already didn't he?

Either Guilliman or the Lion. Guilliman took a bunch of disconnected planets and turned them into an empire. The Lion meanwhile took a bunch of dudes in primitive power armor with revolver bolters and purged a planet of Chaos Spawn.

I really can't stress how crazy that is.

Guilliman was the most advanced in what he achieved. Whilst he did achieve a military victory (the native tribes in Illyria, and stopping a coup for power), he was pretty much the only Primarch who actually set up a stable and efficient empire.

Guilliman did achieve a lot but he also started in arguably the best position, except for maybe Magnus.

Not many of the primarchs really became the leaders of their worlds. Besides Guilliman, we have

Curze - ruled an entire planet from the shadows through terrorism
Fulgrim - completely revitalized a stagnant planetary economy
Jonson - downgraded a planet from death world status

It is true that we know basically nothing about what Horus did, if anything, before reuniting with the Emperor.

 Manchu wrote:

It is true that we know basically nothing about what Horus did, if anything, before reuniting with the Emperor.

Horus got picked up at quite young age, as the Emperor raised him up from a child.

That's one story. FW's first HH book tells a bunch of others. Seems like it is quite a mystery.

Alpharius,he had a fleet ready and unlike the other primarchs went to the crusade instead of the crusade coming to him.

 Jinx Magiga wrote:
Alpharius,he had a fleet ready and unlike the other primarchs went to the crusade instead of the crusade coming to him.

We don't know Alpharius' origin. There are three stories in extermination, and they're all lies.

 ImAGeek wrote:

We don't know Alpharius' origin. There are three stories in extermination, and they're all lies.

Or they're all true!

Night Haunter. The Bats.

Dorn had the Phalanx, a Dark Age-era mobile space fortress. I think that kinda beats Guilliman's little Roman planet.

 Manchu wrote:
Guilliman did achieve a lot but he also started in arguably the best position, except for maybe Magnus.

Not many of the primarchs really became the leaders of their worlds. Besides Guilliman, we have

Curze - ruled an entire planet from the shadows through terrorism
Fulgrim - completely revitalized a stagnant planetary economy
Jonson - downgraded a planet from death world status

It is true that we know basically nothing about what Horus did, if anything, before reuniting with the Emperor.

actually Per Betrayal only Angron had failed to conquer his world. (course this might be including space Marines installed in command of their world by the Emperor, as it's worth noting Angron was indeed the exception to that)

Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

 dusara217 wrote:
Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

exceptg thats not true, the empire was a thing of the past Gulliman set out to rebuild it.

BrianDavion wrote:
actually

Could you give me a run down then?

As I understand it:

- Corax had to ask the Emperor to help bring peace to Deliverance
- Vulkan seemed to only drive the DE out of one town on Nocturne
- Ferrus did not interfere with the clan system on Medusa
- the Emperor had to save Mortarion's life

as so forth ...

j31c3n wrote:Dorn had the Phalanx, a Dark Age-era mobile space fortress. I think that kinda beats Guilliman's little Roman planet.

Right so Dorn being on a world that happens to be near a space fortress is somehow better than Guilliman rebuilding an empire?

dusara217 wrote:Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

He rebuilt an old empire and started expanding it. So he basically did the same as Dorn but on a larger scale.

I voted for Batman.

I'm surprised there aren't more votes for Alpharius. Dude had an interstellar pirate fleet and killed his way to the Warmaster.

Guilliman.
The Emperor was astounded by his accomplishments and saw him as a primarch of unsurpassed skill.

We don't know Alpharius' origins. There are three different stories told in Extermination and they're all lies.

 ImAGeek wrote:
We don't know Alpharius' origins. There are three different stories told in Extermination and they're all lies.

We don't know they're all lies. They may or may not be true. Some might be more true than others, while some may be complete fabrications. It's just as likely that they're true, but like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.

Well that doesn't change my point. We don't know Alpharius' origin. So we can't say he's got the best achievements before being found.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Well that doesn't change my point. We don't know Alpharius' origin. So we can't say he's got the best achievements before being found.

But we can't say he doesn't, either.

No you can't. But you don't have any evidence to back it up, so really it's kinda pointless saying Alpharius has the greatest accomplishments pre reunification. I also wouldn't say having a pirate fleet and fighting your way to Horus' throne room is better than Guillimans empire anyway. I mean he is a Primarch, of course he'd be able to fight his way to Horus.

for all we know he had a pirate fleet because he FAILED to conquerer his homeworld.

I thought Guilliman was off fighting hill tribes while Ultramar was being expanded. inheriting a empire does not give you a great accomplishment.

the ancient wrote:
I thought Guilliman was off fighting hill tribes while Ultramar was being expanded. inheriting a empire does not give you a great accomplishment.

Pretty sure unremembered empire states that it was Guilliman who expanded off world. Gulliman by defeating those "hill tribes" (whom had never been conquered before. Gulliman however not only beat em but won their respect while doing so) while his father attempted in enact reforms at home. Gulliman returned to find his father killed in a coup, and then set about restoring order, and then expanding into the stars. Belittiling what gulliman did would be like saying Augustus Ceaser didn't achomplish anything and he just inherited Julius ceaser's empire

Most of the Primarchs were great warlords and kings.

Guilliman was already an emperor in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Really no question on this one.

I have to agree that it's pretty clear that Guilliman was the greatest success.

Unlike a lot of the other Primarchs who dominated their worlds his Empire/rule didn't collapse when he left.

 ImAGeek wrote:

dusara217 wrote:Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

He rebuilt an old empire and started expanding it. So he basically did the same as Dorn but on a larger scale.

Except that Dorn started from scratch, while Guilliman was basically inheriting the boot of Italy right after a major slave revolt and started expanding.


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I'm amazed that the Lion got so few votes; he accomplished something great in a relatively short amount of time, and Caliban remained strong and thriving after he left.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No you can't. But you don't have any evidence to back it up, so really it's kinda pointless saying Alpharius has the greatest accomplishments pre reunification. I also wouldn't say having a pirate fleet and fighting your way to Horus' throne room is better than Guillimans empire anyway. I mean he is a Primarch, of course he'd be able to fight his way to Horus.

Yeah, but you know how Alpharius fanboys like to embellish.

I'm not sure where I read it but that the Emperor was going to choose Guilliman as the Warmaster but realized that Guilliman had far too much responsibility to take the burden of Warmaster.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Most of the Primarchs were great warlords and kings.

Guilliman was already an emperor in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Really no question on this one.

Wasn't Dorn also ruling as an emperor? He accomplished pretty much the same thing except he started with even less and happened to find the Phalanx as well.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I'm not sure where I read it but that the Emperor was going to choose Guilliman as the Warmaster but realized that Guilliman had far too much responsibility to take the burden of Warmaster.

So he chose Horus because Guilliman was too useful? I don't think so. Horus was the best and most worthy, simple as that.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
started with even less

 EngulfedObject wrote:
and happened to find the Phalanx as well

wait wat

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I'm not sure where I read it but that the Emperor was going to choose Guilliman as the Warmaster but realized that Guilliman had far too much responsibility to take the burden of Warmaster.

you're recalling from Know no fear. where the Ultramarines where basicly expressing the opion Gulliman had eneugh on his plate as it was, Horus can have the war master title.

the source is a tad biased.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Most of the Primarchs were great warlords and kings.

Guilliman was already an emperor in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Really no question on this one.

Wasn't Dorn also ruling as an emperor? He accomplished pretty much the same thing except he started with even less and happened to find the Phalanx as well.

How is being on a planet near the Phalanx an accomplishment? He didn't exactly go looking for it, it was just there.

 Manchu wrote:
wait wat

Well I realized I didn't know enough about the Primarchs to vote so I checked the wikis for info and apparently Dorn ruled a thriving star system just like Guilliman:

From the Lexicanum (the source given is the Horus Heresy Chapbook):

"Eventually Rogal Dorn became the leader not only of his caste but of the whole world and then the surrounding region of space, ruling the Inwit Cluster as Emperor of the House of Dorn. But as the history goes, 40 years after his grandfather's death, the Great Crusade reached the Ice Hives of Inwit. Dorn greeted the Emperor at the helm of his enormous starship, the Phalanx, the seventh Primarch to be found."

From the 40k wikia:

"It was as part of this burgeoning empire that Rogal Dorn grew to manhood, and then to rule its domains as emperor. Much of his early years remains unknown, or at least little talked about. What is known is that from the cold and darkness of Inwit the boy, named Rogal by his adoped kin, rose to lead the House of Dorn or the Ice Caste and then to the rule of the Inwit Cluster. "

"Forty standard years after his grandfather's death, the outlying Imperial starships of the Great Crusade finally reached the Ice Hives of Inwit. When the true Emperor was reunited with Rogal Dorn, He regained not only a lost son, but the strength of a star spanning society already forged into a tool of war. Dorn greeted the Emperor at the helm of the enormous starship constructed during the Dark Age of Technology called the Phalanx that he had discovered within Inwit's region of space."

 ImAGeek wrote:
How is being on a planet near the Phalanx an accomplishment? He didn't exactly go looking for it, it was just there.

I agree, finding the ship itself isn't much of an accomplished but that's in addition to becoming emperor and ruling the star system.

Inwit itself is also described much like a death world, though apparently the humans there overcame these obstacles without the help of a Primarch and built a stellar empire. Dorn didn't build that empire but he eventually became the ruler.

It's a toughy as we don't really know enough about the Primarchs early lives. I'm not sure if killing something is an accomplishment either unless it achieved some form of betterment for their people. Ferrus killing Asinoth was pretty boss, but was it an accomplishment. Also inheriting a Space Fort or an Empire isn't really an accomplishment. The deeds of doing it would be in my opinion. If Dorn just found the Phalanx, no. If he had to build and design space ships that created thousands of jobs for his subjects then yeah.

Going on that I think there are a few contenders. Fulgrim turned Chemos around. Angron freed the slaves and nearly over threw the slavers themselves, kinda. Mortarion made it so that the people he lived with could actually live their lives.

What are the determining criteria for something to be considered an accomplishment?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What are the determining criteria for something to be considered an accomplishment?

That varies according to the person considering the question and the fluff. For example, you listed Angron but his pre-reunification hijinks seem like a failure to me.

Hm, it seems to me that we're mainly considering the overall benefit to the Imperium rather than personal hardship. Otherwise Guilliman and Dorn wouldn't really be contenders.

These are also Primarchs we're discussing so none of the achievements are really that impressive, given what they were. It's a good thing the Emperor found them, otherwise their potential really would have been wasted, even with the whole turning traitor thing. Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

I've revised my opinion. The Lion had the greatest accomplishments. I mean, he got into the most disciplined and highly trained Knightly Order on his planet, rose to the rank of Grandmaster, purged his entire planet of a major DAEMON INFESTATION using maybe 50K ORDINARY HUMAN KNIGHTS in less than ten years. Plus, he survived his first few years in daemon-infested, poisonous-monster-hunted, death world forests. And keep in mind, he survived in the North Wilds - literally the most dangerous forest of a planet covered in insanely dangerous forests.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What are the determining criteria for something to be considered an accomplishment?

That varies according to the person considering the question and the fluff. For example, you listed Angron but his pre-reunification hijinks seem like a failure to me.

That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

When you think about it, that is pretty much the only lasting positive legacy of the primarchs anyhow.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

I prefer to see each poster's unique perspective on the issue. Besides, if I made guidelines, we'd just be arguing about those instead, kind of like how we are talking about whether there should be guidelines rather than the topic itself right now.

As much as I don't like the guy, I'd go with Fulgrim (really wish they wrote him so that all the perfection, glamour and excess didn't get to his head until after the Laer, maybe rewrite the fluff so that the war against the Laer happened earlier in the great crusade and then Fulgrim makes a slow but sure descent into the prick we all know him as). I think Fulgrim had the greatest achievement in not only saving a planet and it's people from death but turning it into someplace that would probably a fairly nice place to live.

Dorn and Guilliman had their own empires spanning multiple planets, but I feel that much of the groundwork was already there and all they had to do was more or less fit the pieces together to make it all work.

 Manchu wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

When you think about it, that is pretty much the only lasting positive legacy of the primarchs anyhow.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

I prefer to see each poster's unique perspective on the issue. Besides, if I made guidelines, we'd just be arguing about those instead, kind of like how we are talking about whether there should be guidelines rather than the topic itself right now.

Then Angron FTW

Probably Fulgrim or Curze if I am to be serious.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

When you think about it, that is pretty much the only lasting positive legacy of the primarchs anyhow.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

I prefer to see each poster's unique perspective on the issue. Besides, if I made guidelines, we'd just be arguing about those instead, kind of like how we are talking about whether there should be guidelines rather than the topic itself right now.

Then Angron FTW

Probably Fulgrim or Curze if I am to be serious.

In terms of what they brought to the Imperium, Guilliman. In terms of their individual planet, and the lengths they personally went to, either the Lion, Fulgrim or Curze. Although I don't know that much about Fulgrims uprising. You could also count Corax in there, he freed a planet and it's moon from slavery.

Fulgrim is different in many ways ass he didn't actually have to fight a war. He did it by hard graft and economical means.

IA Emperors Children: Not only was he physically proficient, he quickly grew to understand the technology of the machines he worked with, and began to contemplate their improvement. By the fifteenth anniversary of his fall from the sky, Fulgrim had risen from the ranks of the workers, first becoming an engineer then one of the Executive itself. Learning of the slow deterioration in Callax and the other settlements of Chemos, Fulgrim set himself the task of saving his world.

One by one he convinced his fellow members of the Executive to fight against the entropy that was destroying Chemos. Under Fulgrim's leadership, teams of engineers travelled far from the factory-fortresses, reclaiming long-dead outposts in the planet's most inaccessible regions. The ancient mines were reopened and expanded, bringing more and more minerals into Callax and allowing the construction of more sophisticated machines. Recycling efficiency grew until, at last, Callax was producing more that it consumed. Seeing his people prosper, Fulgrim took pride in fostering he re-emergence of art and culture, reclaiming the spirit of humanity that had been sacrificed so long ago in the struggle or survival. As Callax grew, the other settlements began to ally themselves with Fulgrim. Fifty years after Fulgrim fell from the sky he rose to sole rulership of Chemos.

Oh right, that's pretty unique I think. And doing it without any fighting is an achievement in itself. I wish Fulgrim had been written better because I kind of hate him but I like the idea of him.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh right, that's pretty unique I think. And doing it without any fighting is an achievement in itself. I wish Fulgrim had been written better because I kind of hate him but I like the idea of him.

There's a fair few that feel the same way

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh right, that's pretty unique I think. And doing it without any fighting is an achievement in itself. I wish Fulgrim had been written better because I kind of hate him but I like the idea of him.

There's a fair few that feel the same way

I need Betrayal, that might change my view on the Emperors Children. Saving for Tempest atm though.

Why hate Fulgrim?

I don't think he gets enough credit at all. His IA background shows he was a masterful administrator, which is pretty key to running a giant army. The Emperor surely acknowledged that his gifts were exceptional even among the primarchs, given his Legion's namesake and the then-unique right to wear the aquila.

Just because of how he was written in Fulgrim. It seems like it's meant to be quite a tragic story but he starts off as an arse anyway so his fall is robbed of any emotional value. It's just tainted my view on them.

Just keep in mind that he resurrected the economy and culture of an entire planet using only intelligence and charisma.

Why did he do it? To help the suffering people of Chemos or to inflate his own ego? Probably neither. I'd argue he did it because it his unique nature to improve, hone, and perfect.

Angron, everyone else had a pre made empire to run, he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse, if you gave me macragge and its out lying world and entire armies, being raised by the king etc. im sure id have done a good job too, Guilliman didn't achieve much at all, it was all pre existing and he built upon it after he was found

Gulliman probably ended with the most, but he had a head start in the race
I would say the lion came the farthest from his starting point (having pretty much nothing beyond certaion death from his early childhood)
But ultimately my vote goes to vulkan, sure he didn't have an empire, but he managed to get a primative world to fight off dark eldar raiders. These are the guys with the 'blackhole jack-in-the-box' level of technology. Not exactly even grounds for him to win on

Angron's slave uprising was a failure. He and his fellow gladiators were dead men.

 Formosa wrote:
everyone else had a pre made empire to run

Not true. Many of the primach's homeworlds were far less civilized than Nuceria.

 Formosa wrote:
he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse

He actually lost.

 Flame-Rage wrote:
he managed to get a primative world to fight off dark eldar raiders

Seems like he once drove away some pirates from a single town on Nocturne. (Maybe he also commanded the Ewoks on Endor?)

it wasn't a failure, it achieved exactly what it was intended, to allow him and his fellows to die free, that's success, otherwise he would have conquered a city, fortified, moved on etc.

he didn't want to become another dictator or despot, so he didn't.

that's success on your own terms, not your enemies.

I guess he should have just shoved a sword in his neck as soon as he first broke his shackles then.

 Manchu wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
everyone else had a pre made empire to run

Not true. Many of the primach's homeworlds were far less civilized than Nuceria.

 Formosa wrote:
he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse

He actually lost.

 Flame-Rage wrote:
he managed to get a primative world to fight off dark eldar raiders

Seems like he once drove away some pirates from a single town on Nocturne. (Maybe he also commanded the Ewoks on Endor?)

Nuceria tech was just post our own, so using slaves to beat that and winning (which he did, only when they all united did they push him back), so he did infact kick arse.

again he didn't lose, he achieved his goal, the emperor interfered and thus people think he lost.

Your point about nocturne is the only correct thing you said, so ill accept that.

Again, Angron could have accomplished the goal of "dying free" pretty much whenever. In any case, that is not a coherent goal for an army, which would just support the argument of him being the worst general among the traitor primarchs. But in any case, the "I'd rather have died free" thing actually reflects how he viewed things after being saved/abducted by the Emperor.

Oh I certainly agree he was a bad general, he just didn't care as he considered himself dead already, the bonds of brotherhood he made with the slaves of nuceria are the only ones he cared about.

And he had a point to prove to the slavemasters, that being free is worth any price and he proved that quite perfectly, they told stories of the slave revolt for generations after he "ran away" sadly he came back and wiped out the planet.

So while diving on his sword immediately would have achieved the "death on my terms" leading a revolt and getting revenge proved it in a much better way, imagine if that happened to this world these days, whole cities ransacked by nothing more than under equipped slaves and surgery induced madmen, and it took the world to unite to defeat it, that's a hell of an achievement

I'd give it to Mortarion.

Guy took a bunch of untrained frail citizens and beat armies of undeath and demons with themm,

On a planet so toxic not even the primarch known for beign tough could climb too high.

 Formosa wrote:
that's a hell of an achievement

It sounds like Angron only managed to take advantage of his enemies' (a) apathy and (b) poor organization. But as soon as they took him seriously and united against him, he was cornered and defeated. In other words, he made a huge mess that the authorities were about to clean up for good. I can see where you're coming from but I personally don't count a planetary-scale temper tantrum as an achievement.

Indeed, it's hard to understand why the Emperor even spared Angron if you're one of those people who deny that the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the Heresy.


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Amoras wrote:
I'd give it to Mortarion.

Guy took a bunch of untrained frail citizens and beat armies of undeath and demons with themm,

On a planet so toxic not even the primarch known for beign tough could climb too high.

This is another good example of why I didn't want to lay out guidelines for what counts as an "accomplishment." Along with Angron, I'd say that Mortarion ultimately failed. But like Angron, Mortarion did whip a bunch of oppressed ragtag nobodies into an effective fighting force.

I would like to say Corax took a bunch of slaves and fought against an army that had more than superior firepower and arms than his forces did using stealth and guerilla tactics, then managed to nuke the planet they were orbiting to stop any reinforcements from coming up. Kind of what angron did with his slave revolt only more successful (partially due to getting raised by the prisoners)

Corax's soldiers were slaves only by dint of being political prisoners. So in other words they were exactly the kind of people suited to fighting "The Man" in guerrilla cells (think Rebel Alliance). That could very well be what landed some of them in prison to begin with. While Corax successfully shattered the old order, we will never know whether he could have forged and administered a stable new order.

I have to fanboy about Ferrus Manus for a second. He survived until adulthood alone and unaided on a hostile world. Not because he had to, but because he wanted to. When he felt he was strong enough to survive any challenge of his world, he left the shadows and advanced a society from the Iron Age to post-Dark Age of Technology at breakneck speed, using only the deductions of his own mind. The guy's a walking technological singularity. And that's not even mentioning the whole "strangled what is implied to be a C'tan to death in a pool of molten lava" thing.

 j31c3n wrote:
I have to fanboy about Ferrus Manus for a second. He survived until adulthood alone and unaided on a hostile world. Not because he had to, but because he wanted to. When he felt he was strong enough to survive any challenge of his world, he left the shadows and advanced a society from the Iron Age to post-Dark Age of Technology at breakneck speed, using only the deductions of his own mind. The guy's a walking technological singularity. And that's not even mentioning the whole "strangled what is implied to be a C'tan to death in a pool of molten lava" thing.

How long did it take him to reach adulthood though? I think Sanguinius was said to be the size of a full grown man by the time he was a year old, and would already have been far stronger/tougher than any man his size.

I don't think it's specified, but I would assume he hit adulthood as fast as any other Primarch. It's implied by the text that he had the mental faculties of an adult from the moment he stepped out of his pod, because he was able to note its markings and characteristics... but I would imagine that's hardly unusual for a Primarch.

 Formosa wrote:
Angron, everyone else had a pre made empire to run, he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse, if you gave me macragge and its out lying world and entire armies, being raised by the king etc. im sure id have done a good job too, Guilliman didn't achieve much at all, it was all pre existing and he built upon it after he was found

If you where on Mcragge in Gulliman's position you would not have survived. you would have almost certinly been killed in Gallan's revolt. assuming you didn't fail utterly and die fighting Illyrium.

if I were in guillimans place I would be guilliman, all the upbringing all the training etc.

it doesn't take a genius to beat an enemy with the loyalty of the military and all the resources backing you, also I would never have allowed gallan to get into the position he was in, I wouldn't be as trusting as roboute.

 Formosa wrote:
if I were in guillimans place I would be guilliman, all the upbringing all the training etc.

it doesn't take a genius to beat an enemy with the loyalty of the military and all the resources backing you, also I would never have allowed gallan to get into the position he was in, I wouldn't be as trusting as roboute.

Short of launching a coup to make your father supreme dictator what exactly would you have done? Gallan was his father's co-consul.

I think we can safely assume each primarch did the best that he could in the circumstances. So if they failed to achieve much, it could be a sign of weakness. For example, Mortarion's fear of death is foreshadowed by his inability to defeat his adoptive father.

 Manchu wrote:
Why hate Fulgrim?

I don't think he gets enough credit at all. His IA background shows he was a masterful administrator, which is pretty key to running a giant army. The Emperor surely acknowledged that his gifts were exceptional even among the primarchs, given his Legion's namesake and the then-unique right to wear the aquila.

IIRC his legion was given the name and right you mentioned because of Fulgrim's grandiloquent speech after he was discovered by the Emperor. And I can't remember if anything about his skills in administration, etc played a role in that privilege, but I doubt it.

So he smooth-talked the Emperor? -_-

 Manchu wrote:
So he smooth-talked the Emperor? -_-

Dug out your Betrayal copy yet? It'll be in there

I should post a picture of the stuff I have to ... excavate is the only fair word ... to get to it.

Also, I was being just a tad sarcastic with that last post.

I' really surprised so much people voted for Roboute Guilliman, since, of all primarchs, he had the biggest head start.


I voted for Curze.

Unlike all other primarchs, Curze had absolutely no allies, no adoptive father, no inheritance. He single-handedly scared an entire planet into submission.

Broly wrote:
I' really surprised so much people voted for Roboute Guilliman, since, of all primarchs, he had the biggest head start.


I voted for Curze.

Unlike all other primarchs, Curze had absolutely no allies, no adoptive father, no inheritance. He single-handedly scared an entire planet into submission.

The second he left though, it went back to the way it was. I'm not sure I'd call that a meaningful victory. I like Curze and the NL, but I dunno if his methods had much merit. If you rule entirely through fear, what happens when the object of their fear goes?

It depends on your definition of 'greatest accomplisments'.

Fulgrim, Curze, Lorgar, Dorn, Gulliman, Khan, Russ, Magnus, Corax, Ferrus Manus, The Lion and Sanguinius definitely were all effectively ruling their own planets (at least) before the Emperor arrived.

Peturabo wasn't the ruler (he was Dammekos' henchman) and Vulkan would have resented being called a 'ruler' but both have a fair claim to 'ruling a world' too.

So actually ruling a planet doesn't really mean that much. The next question is; who had to come the furthest to do that?

Not Gulliman. He was adopted, raised, trained and educated by a man who was already ruler of a major city-state, and inherited its resources.

Not Peturabo. He too essentially took Lochlos' armies and just expanded its borders.

Nor Dorn. Raised by the Patriarch of the House of Dorn, and inheriting an existing structure.

Equally, Fulgrim was raised by one of the Caretakers of Chemos, so was already in line for rulership of the world

Magnus was raised by Amon, one of the ruling council of Psyker-Scholars on Prospero.

Jaghati Khan wasn't raised by the ruler of a world, but Ong Khan, his adoptive father, was still the ruler of a tribe with non-trivial military forces.

Leman Russ was raised by wolves, but would have stayed up in the hills howling had he not been brought to the court of Thengir of the Russ.

Sanguinius might be one of the good claims or might not - it's all a bit vague; but again, essentially the Pure Blood Tribe found him, went 'It's Space Jesus!' and made him their leader once he grew up. Certainly he won the war against the mutants, but other than that we don't really know..

Lorgar has more of a claim but not much - he was raised by the priesthood on Colchis, but didn't start out at the top - he became friends with Kor Phaeron during his service. That said, Kor Phaeron was the High Priest, so once Lorgar had him on side, it was all over bar the shouting.

The Lion, equally, has a better claim but not a great one. Yes, he's a swordsman and a tactician beyond compare. But the Lion's story starts with him surviving in the forests of Caliban (impressive!) then walking out and being shot in the face with a bolt round. The reason it didn't play out like that is due to Luther, and unlike other primarchs who may have had assorted hangers-on floating around, a lot of the credit for the 'pre-reunification accomplishments' go to him, not the primarch. The Order already existed, and Luther is the one who got the other various knightly orders to sign on to the Lion's crusade.


That leaves, to my mind, Ferrus, Curze and Corax. Both started with worlds who didn't even know they existed, and managed to take rulership.

I don't think Fulgrim inherited leadership of Chemos at all. From what i have read, he came up through the ranks from a lowly worker to CEO. Also, the Caretakers were just a police force and not some kind of leadership body.

Ferrus Manus definitely accomplished the most, he basically started building his own version of the Mechanicum. If he had been left alone for another century, his tech probably would have rivaled that of the Pre-Fall Eldar.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think Fulgrim inherited leadership of Chemos at all. From what i have read, he came up through the ranks from a lowly worker to CEO. Also, the Caretakers were just a police force and not some kind of leadership body.

Indeed

IA Emperors Children:
Not only was he physically proficient, he quickly grew to understand the technology of the machines he worked with, and began to contemplate their improvement. By the fifteenth anniversary of his fall from the sky, Fulgrim had risen from the ranks of the workers, first becoming an engineer then one of the Executive itself. Learning of the slow deterioration in Callax and the other settlements of Chemos, Fulgrim set himself the task of saving his world.

One by one he convinced his fellow members of the Executive to fight against the entropy that was destroying Chemos. Under Fulgrim's leadership, teams of engineers travelled far from the factory-fortresses, reclaiming long-dead outposts in the planet's most inaccessible regions. The ancient mines were reopened and expanded, bringing more and more minerals into Callax and allowing the construction of more sophisticated machines. Recycling efficiency grew until, at last, Callax was producing more that it consumed. Seeing his people prosper, Fulgrim took pride in fostering he re-emergence of art and culture, reclaiming the spirit of humanity that had been sacrificed so long ago in the struggle or survival. As Callax grew, the other settlements began to ally themselves with Fulgrim. Fifty years after Fulgrim fell from the sky he rose to sole rulership of Chemos

dusara217 wrote:Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

dusara217 wrote:The Lion had the greatest accomplishments. I mean, he got into the most disciplined and highly trained Knightly Order on his planet, rose to the rank of Grandmaster, purged his entire planet of a major DAEMON INFESTATION using maybe 50K ORDINARY HUMAN KNIGHTS in less than ten years. Plus, he survived his first few years in daemon-infested, poisonous-monster-hunted, death world forests. And keep in mind, he survived in the North Wilds - literally the most dangerous forest of a planet covered in insanely dangerous forests.

dusara217 wrote:Ferrus Manus definitely accomplished the most, he basically started building his own version of the Mechanicum. If he had been left alone for another century, his tech probably would have rivaled that of the Pre-Fall Eldar.

Bit of trouble making your mind up?

It's not necessarily about "making up your mind," it's about considering the question fully.

Broly wrote:
I' really surprised so much people voted for Roboute Guilliman, since, of all primarchs, he had the biggest head start.


I voted for Curze.

Unlike all other primarchs, Curze had absolutely no allies, no adoptive father, no inheritance. He single-handedly scared an entire planet into submission.

Guilliman was found 8th, Curze 16th of the Primarchs. How many more years did that give Curze to get his act together and go beyond his own planet?

as others have said, I think "legacy" is important to consider here. especially as so many primarchs where in "world leadership positions" once a primarch took over? what did they do? did their changes etc stick?

looking at it.


Cruze: nothing he did mattered in the end, the minute he turned his back things went back to what they always where.
The Lion: it's hard to say as his homeworld underwent signfcigent changes once the Emperor arrived. I think it's notable that he;s the only primarch who approved the full scale industrilization of his homeworld. turning it from Feudal world into an industrial one. the Caliban of old was gone. it'd been bulldozed. although the Warp spawn eventually returned. as the Lion never realized he was clearing something more then beasts. I'll give the Lion a wash because you could make convicing arguements eaither way.
Fulgrim: there's evidance the positive changes he left remained in place. leading to a much better world... until the world was destroyed following the seige of Terra,
Lorgar: apparently fell back to it's old state the minute he left
Corax: the Liberation of his homeworld stuck, and the changes he made have, as far as I can tell remained more or less in place. Corax manages to score well on the legacy front
Jaghatai Khan: when he left the tribes he had united fragmented returning the world to it's semi-feudal status.
Gulliman: Gulliman started with a reasonably decent planet with a reasonably decent society, but there where problems with it as well. Mcragge had a large and powerful noble class that had become fat and happy on the backs of slaves etc. Gulliman broke this and eistablished a meritocracy upon which he built an empire. And Empire that continues to this day


the other Primarchs we have insufficant information on to detirmine the extent of the "pre-Imperial contact" legacy they've left behind. for the most part it seems that the Empires built by the primarchs collapsed as soon as they left. only a very small handful of Primarchs managed to build something lasting.

Going to have to go with Guilliman. Ultramar is the only place in 40K where the term utopia is thrown around.

BrianDavion wrote:
The Lion: it's hard to say as his homeworld underwent signfcigent changes once the Emperor arrived. I think it's notable that he;s the only primarch who approved the full scale industrilization of his homeworld. turning it from Feudal world into an industrial one. the Caliban of old was gone. it'd been bulldozed.

Untrue. Ferrus Manus raised up Medusa far higher than the Lion raised Caliban. And he did it before the Emperor arrived. Though I should mention that Medusa was not infested with daemons.

 j31c3n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The Lion: it's hard to say as his homeworld underwent signfcigent changes once the Emperor arrived. I think it's notable that he;s the only primarch who approved the full scale industrilization of his homeworld. turning it from Feudal world into an industrial one. the Caliban of old was gone. it'd been bulldozed.

Untrue. Ferrus Manus raised up Medusa far higher than the Lion raised Caliban. And he did it before the Emperor arrived. Though I should mention that Medusa was not infested with daemons.

Only C'tan

Only a single C'tan shard.



Did Ferrus really improve Medusa? Seems like he left well enough alone.

Yeah I know haha. I don't know much about Medusa before and after which may be pretty telling in itself...

 Manchu wrote:
Did Ferrus really improve Medusa? Seems like he left well enough alone.

The only thing he "left alone" was the clan structure.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Did Ferrus really improve Medusa? Seems like he left well enough alone.

The only thing he "left alone" was the clan structure.

what exactly did he change? keep in mind my statement on the Lion wasn't exactly nesscarily all that complimentry. I'm basicly noting that even before the planet blew up Caliban had been completly altered. as in "forests bulldozed to make room for factories" altered. Honestly, it's no wonder the Lion had a rebellion on Caliban, he'd pretty much destroyed the planets way of life. I imagine he went almost overnight from a local hero, to a forigen opressor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Did Ferrus really improve Medusa? Seems like he left well enough alone.

The only thing he "left alone" was the clan structure.

what exactly did he change? keep in mind my statement on the Lion wasn't exactly nesscarily all that complimentry. I'm basicly noting that even before the planet blew up Caliban had been completly altered. as in "forests bulldozed to make room for factories" altered. Honestly, it's no wonder the Lion had a rebellion on Caliban, he'd pretty much destroyed the planets way of life. I imagine he went almost overnight from a local hero, to a forigen opressor.

When Ferrus Manus arrived on Medusa, it was essentially a tribal, fragmented society, with technology around the level of the Bronze or Iron age. He decided to remain apart from the people of Medusa until he had bested every challenge of the world. Only after he slew the wyrm Asirnoth (theorized by fans to be a C'tan shard), Ferrus went to the tribes and taught them of technology. He advanced the society of Medusa from the Iron age to pre-Heresy tech levels between then and the Emperor's arrival. By himself. Using nothing more than the faculties of his own mind. He didn't have an STC blueprint or anything other than his pod, marked with an X. That is accomplishment.

 j31c3n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Did Ferrus really improve Medusa? Seems like he left well enough alone.

The only thing he "left alone" was the clan structure.

what exactly did he change? keep in mind my statement on the Lion wasn't exactly nesscarily all that complimentry. I'm basicly noting that even before the planet blew up Caliban had been completly altered. as in "forests bulldozed to make room for factories" altered. Honestly, it's no wonder the Lion had a rebellion on Caliban, he'd pretty much destroyed the planets way of life. I imagine he went almost overnight from a local hero, to a forigen opressor.

When Ferrus Manus arrived on Medusa, it was essentially a tribal, fragmented society, with technology around the level of the Bronze or Iron age. He decided to remain apart from the people of Medusa until he had bested every challenge of the world. Only after he slew the wyrm Asirnoth (theorized by fans to be a C'tan shard), Ferrus went to the tribes and taught them of technology. He advanced the society of Medusa from the Iron age to pre-Heresy tech levels between then and the Emperor's arrival. By himself. Using nothing more than the faculties of his own mind. He didn't have an STC blueprint or anything other than his pod, marked with an X. That is accomplishment.

That's close, when Ferrus Manus arrived on Medusa, it was covered in techno-barbarians, which can mean they had tech anywhere from 20th Century to 30 millenium


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Did Ferrus really improve Medusa? Seems like he left well enough alone.

The only thing he "left alone" was the clan structure.

what exactly did he change? keep in mind my statement on the Lion wasn't exactly nesscarily all that complimentry. I'm basicly noting that even before the planet blew up Caliban had been completly altered. as in "forests bulldozed to make room for factories" altered. Honestly, it's no wonder the Lion had a rebellion on Caliban, he'd pretty much destroyed the planets way of life. I imagine he went almost overnight from a local hero, to a forigen opressor.

He took a bunch of techno-barbarian tribes and essentially started building up his own version of the Mechanicum. Only, he didn't use STCs, he only used his mind. One man's mind, taking Techno-barbarians and creating civilized men and women utilizing Dark Age-equivalent technology, without the aid of STCs. Think about that for a second.

I dunno where I got the Iron age tech from. Probably my own inner fanboyisms. Still massively impressive though.

 j31c3n wrote:
I dunno where I got the Iron age tech from. Probably my own inner fanboyisms. Still massively impressive though.

you proably read Barbarian and, naturally assumed iron age tech because that was the era of Barbarians on earth. easy mistake to make

BrianDavion wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
I dunno where I got the Iron age tech from. Probably my own inner fanboyisms. Still massively impressive though.

you proably read Barbarian and, naturally assumed iron age tech because that was the era of Barbarians on earth. easy mistake to make

Maybe I thought they were iron age barbarians who had invented techno music.

Some clans had bits and pieces of pre-heresy equivalent tech, some didn't. Ferrus united them, and hence shared out the technology - and more importantly was able to piece those bits of tech together into a functioning society.

The Iron-Fathers already existed - essentially a local version of the mechanicus - and Ferrus convinced them to disseminate their tech to the masses in return for him providing his understanding of technology to them in turn.

Note that there was a load of archaeotech buried beneath the ice of Medusa - which may have been actual archaeotech, old necron salvage, or a mix of the two - but regardless, did its job and lifted the planet sustainably (i.e. not dependent on Ferrus) out of barbarism.

Didn't realise Fulgrim wasn't a worker either. That puts him in pretty much the same league.


Corvus Corax started from nothing and managed to engineer a planet-wide jail break and regime change, but we don't know what he'd have done with it as the emperor arrived at its climax.

Curze certainly unified and improved the world he lived on (How crap does your world have to be that being ruled by Evil Mafia Batman is an improvement? Damn...) but those changes were all dependent on him - as noted they fell apart the moment he left.



I'd probably have to go for Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus as the two who achieved the most with the least.

locarno24 wrote:
Some clans had bits and pieces of pre-heresy equivalent tech, some didn't. Ferrus united them, and hence shared out the technology - and more importantly was able to piece those bits of tech together into a functioning society.

The Iron-Fathers already existed - essentially a local version of the mechanicus - and Ferrus convinced them to disseminate their tech to the masses in return for him providing his understanding of technology to them in turn.

Note that there was a load of archaeotech buried beneath the ice of Medusa - which may have been actual archaeotech, old necron salvage, or a mix of the two - but regardless, did its job and lifted the planet sustainably (i.e. not dependent on Ferrus) out of barbarism.

Didn't realise Fulgrim wasn't a worker either. That puts him in pretty much the same league.


Corvus Corax started from nothing and managed to engineer a planet-wide jail break and regime change, but we don't know what he'd have done with it as the emperor arrived at its climax.

Curze certainly unified and improved the world he lived on (How crap does your world have to be that being ruled by Evil Mafia Batman is an improvement? Damn...) but those changes were all dependent on him - as noted they fell apart the moment he left.



I'd probably have to go for Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus as the two who achieved the most with the least.

Actually, I think the Emperor turned up while Corax was doing his jailbreak, and left him to finish it, if I remember rightly from Extermination, and it was successful.

locarno24 wrote:
Didn't realise Fulgrim wasn't a worker either. That puts him in pretty much the same league.

What? Fulgrim did start out as a worker on Chemos but eventually rose to become essentially planetary CEO.

As to Ferrus - all this talk about him not having a STC ... so what? His intellect was genetically engineered to be far in advance of the most ingenious AdMech magi. Of course he could reverse engineer machines. For him, it was the equivalent of us changing the batteries in a remote control. And what did he achieve with that astounding acumen? He gave a few lectures to some tribes and let them keep up their infighting. I haven't read the IA entry for IH in a long time so maybe this led to much better standards of living on Medusa or something but I heavily doubt that because of course Ferrus would consider that sort of thing weak.

Doesn't he (corax) then have a chat with the emperor and then nuke the planet the moon is connected too? Something about making the right choice and not the morally good/bad choice.

 Manchu wrote:
As to Ferrus - all this talk about him not having a STC ... so what? His intellect was genetically engineered to be far in advance of the most ingenious AdMech magi. Of course he could reverse engineer machines. For him, it was the equivalent of us changing the batteries in a remote control.

By that logic, none of the Primarchs' achievements are notable, because they were all genetically engineered to be able to do those exact things that they did, thus making all eighteen of them completely unremarkable.

locarno24 wrote:
Some clans had bits and pieces of pre-heresy equivalent tech, some didn't. Ferrus united them, and hence shared out the technology - and more importantly was able to piece those bits of tech together into a functioning society.

The Iron-Fathers already existed - essentially a local version of the mechanicus - and Ferrus convinced them to disseminate their tech to the masses in return for him providing his understanding of technology to them in turn.

Note that there was a load of archaeotech buried beneath the ice of Medusa - which may have been actual archaeotech, old necron salvage, or a mix of the two - but regardless, did its job and lifted the planet sustainably (i.e. not dependent on Ferrus) out of barbarism.

Source on Iron Fathers already existing and there being a "load of archaeotech" buried in ice?

Not at all.

There is a big difference between having the ability to understand machines and giving lectures on it, like Ferrus, and having the ability to understand machines and using that understanding to revitalize an entire world's economy from the brink of extinction, like Fulgrim.

 Manchu wrote:
Not at all.

There is a big difference between having the ability to understand machines and giving lectures on it, like Ferrus, and having the ability to understand machines and using that understanding to revitalize an entire world's economy from the brink of extinction, like Fulgrim.

Maybe I've only read the older sources but I always understood Fulgrim's accomplishment to be one more of management and patronage (i.e. he put the right people on the job) than of inventiveness and engineering.

Seems to me that Ferrus dramatically reversed the technological regress of Medusa. But he did not interfere with the constant fighting between the clans. So did the general standard of living improve? Tech can make for much better circumstances in peace but it can also make for much more vicious warfare. So did Ferrus really just give Medusans better ways to fight one another? This seems likely, considering Ferrus believed very strongly in survival of the fittest. I am not sure, however, if this actually produced a better society. Seems like Medusa was already pretty grimdark in M29 (with the exception that the people had a better understanding of their tech) thanks to Ferrus.

Fulgrim began as a some kind of factory worker in a society where people had to work around the clock just to survive. They did not have adequate understanding of their techonology to increase its efficiency and therefore the factories' productivity. Fulgrim did understand those machines and set about to upgrading them as well as the processes by which the economy ran, and was therefore a master of systems engineering at all levels.

When you say older fluff, what are you talking about? My understanding is generally from IA, which is pretty old nowadays.

 Manchu wrote:
When you say older fluff, what are you talking about? My understanding is generally from IA, which is pretty old nowadays.

I mean the oooolllldddd stuff, like that horribly long and disorganized text file once known as the "40k Fluff Bible" and scattered White Dwarf articles that I read when I had the spare time to just hang out in my FLGS. I haven't had much time for fluff studying since 3rd edition, sadly. So a lot of my knowledge is going to be out of date, barring what I can read online - and most of that comes from relatively unreliable secondary sources like 1d4chan and /tg/ discussions and this very forum.

 Manchu wrote:
Seems to me that Ferrus dramatically reversed the technological regress of Medusa. But he did not interfere with the constant fighting between the clans. So did the general standard of living improve? Tech can make for much better circumstances in peace but it can also make for much more vicious warfare. So did Ferrus really just give Medusans better ways to fight one another? This seems likely, considering Ferrus believed very strongly in survival of the fittest. I am not sure, however, if this actually produced a better society. Seems like Medusa was already pretty grimdark in M29 (with the exception that the people had a better understanding of their tech) thanks to Ferrus.

I always understood it that when it is said that Ferrus Manus believed competition was healthy, it meant more-or-less friendly competition. Like all the clans were sort of informally competing to be the best clan and win Ferrus' favor, but he deftly avoided ever overpraising a clan and making the rest feel bad about it. Maybe I wish too hard for Noblebright in my favorite Loyalists, but that's my take.

My impression is, only near the end of his life did Ferrus realize he had gone a bit overboard on the ruthlessness thing. Keep in mind that the IH are about as GrimDark (as opposed to EmoDark like DA or BA) as a loyalist chapter can get. It seems they started out that way, too, thanks to Ferrus. We're talking about guys who save a world from a Chaos incursion then slaughter portions of the civilian populace to punish them for being so weak as to allow it to happen in the first place ...

Hmm. Well, I guess not every Primarch can be Vulkan. I like that interpretation, too.

TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

That certainly fits with their disposition in M41, where they'd call off a battle if they were a single bolter shell short.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

That certainly fits with their disposition in M41, where they'd call off a battle if they were a single bolter shell short.

So, are we suggesting the IH had aspergers?

 Shidank wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

That certainly fits with their disposition in M41, where they'd call off a battle if they were a single bolter shell short.

So, are we suggesting the IH had aspergers?

No, that's literally something it says in the Codex. The Iron Hands take machinelike logic to an insane level and perform intricate logisitical calculations to see if a given battle, campaign, or action is worth its projected cost. They've called stuff off for the want of a single bolter shell.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

That certainly fits with their disposition in M41, where they'd call off a battle if they were a single bolter shell short.

So, are we suggesting the IH had aspergers?

No, that's literally something it says in the Codex. The Iron Hands take machinelike logic to an insane level and perform intricate logisitical calculations to see if a given battle, campaign, or action is worth its projected cost. They've called stuff off for the want of a single bolter shell.

That’s... bloody awesome. As you pointed out previously, it fits their whole “machine” logic based doctrine perfectly.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

That certainly fits with their disposition in M41, where they'd call off a battle if they were a single bolter shell short.

So, are we suggesting the IH had aspergers?

No, that's literally something it says in the Codex. The Iron Hands take machinelike logic to an insane level and perform intricate logisitical calculations to see if a given battle, campaign, or action is worth its projected cost. They've called stuff off for the want of a single bolter shell.

I suppose we could say efficiency at that level is an accomplishment all its own, but I personally prefer Perturabo's approach.

To me, the greatest tragedy isn't Pert and Dorn being enemies, it's that Pert and Manus weren't better friends. The IW marines are constantly reminded by their primarch how worthy the Iron Hands were as foes.

That's a good point actually. The interplay between the Hands and the Warriors would have been interesting to read about.

Maybe we'll have some fluff on it later, but I'm not holding my breath. They blew through the early HH books and are content to let the end of it grind on at their usual glacial pace. We'd have had to see this in the first run of books or not at all.

Yeah I doubt we'll see it. Would be cool though.

 Manchu wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Didn't realise Fulgrim wasn't a worker either. That puts him in pretty much the same league.

What? Fulgrim did start out as a worker on Chemos but eventually rose to become essentially planetary CEO.

As to Ferrus - all this talk about him not having a STC ... so what? His intellect was genetically engineered to be far in advance of the most ingenious AdMech magi. Of course he could reverse engineer machines. For him, it was the equivalent of us changing the batteries in a remote control. And what did he achieve with that astounding acumen? He gave a few lectures to some tribes and let them keep up their infighting. I haven't read the IA entry for IH in a long time so maybe this led to much better standards of living on Medusa or something but I heavily doubt that because of course Ferrus would consider that sort of thing weak.

Close. He started as an engineer, not a grunt worker

 dusara217 wrote:
Close. He started as an engineer, not a grunt worker

Here's what IA says:

Fulgrim grew unnaturally fast, becoming a strong, capable man. At half the age of his fellow workers he was able to fulfil his obligations to the Executive, working for days without rest. Not only was he physically proficient, he quickly grew to understand the technology of the machines he worked with, and began to contemplate their improvement.

The text strongly implies he did physical labor with machines.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Doesn't he (corax) then have a chat with the emperor and then nuke the planet the moon is connected too? Something about making the right choice and not the morally good/bad choice.

I think (according to Deliverance Lost) that he nuked the fright elevator with some hot-wired mining charges and caused the planet to go into a warring state when the Empy came to say hi.


I hope I remembered that correctly.

 Jinx Magiga wrote:
Alpharius,he had a fleet ready and unlike the other primarchs went to the crusade instead of the crusade coming to him.

Did he shout "for the emperor" as he charged even back then to confuse Horus?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for Alpharius. Dude had an interstellar pirate fleet and killed his way to the Warmaster.

yeah it's mighty impressive to land a bording party on a battle barge and make it all the way to the bridge.

Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Why so few votes for Mortarion?
Didn't he basically fight an entire planet free of insanely superior Xenos/Nurglite overlords, who had superior men, terrain, organisation and powers?
On the awesome scale of 1 to 50, he's around 777 (with Marbo and a few Tanith)
I'd say that this beats expanding a solar empire, or getting a few ships to raid people with.

Plus, he wins because he's basically Batman
Badass in a cape, that terrifies people and mysteriously apprears out of knowhere and can't be killed!

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Why so few votes for Mortarion?
Didn't he basically fight an entire planet free of insanely superior Xenos/Nurglite overlords, who had superior men, terrain, organisation and powers?
On the awesome scale of 1 to 50, he's around 777 (with Marbo and a few Tanith)
I'd say that this beats expanding a solar empire, or getting a few ships to raid people with.

Plus, he wins because he's basically Batman
Badass in a cape, that terrifies people and mysteriously apprears out of knowhere and can't be killed!

Well, he almost died and the Emperor has to save his ass, but yeah. He did okay but nothing astounding.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Batman always wins

Going by personal accomplishment and hardship faced. Curze is probably the winner, with Lion coming in second.

Curze fell into a world that makes Necromunda look nice. Gangs and corrupt officials controlled the streets and looking at someone the wrong way would get you killed. Curze grew up without any assistance, making a name for himself even at a young age as a dangerous figure. He was able to gain planetary renown without revealing himself to the public and set up an empire from the shadows. He was able to turn his planet from a constant street fight into a land of law and order, bringing prosperity to its people.

Unlike the other primarchs, Curze had no real reason to improve his planet besides that it would help the people. Curze was plagued with dreams of the future. He knew that the emperor was coming to take him away. He could have just waited for the emperor's arrival, but he decided to make his home a better place in the meantime.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

Given that Dorn was the one who was pissed off when the conversation began, it's just as likely that Dorn threw the first punch.

We do know that Dorn was left scared shitless of Curze after the fact. Whether it was a fair fight or not, I doubt Dorn would have pursued a second encounter, prepared or not.

Striking fear, true fear, into the heart of a Primarch is something I think no one else ever accomplished.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

Given that Dorn was the one who was pissed off when the conversation began, it's just as likely that Dorn threw the first punch.

We do know that Dorn was left scared shitless of Curze after the fact. Whether it was a fair fight or not, I doubt Dorn would have pursued a second encounter, prepared or not.

Striking fear, true fear, into the heart of a Primarch is something I think no one else ever accomplished.

It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

 Shidank wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

Given that Dorn was the one who was pissed off when the conversation began, it's just as likely that Dorn threw the first punch.

We do know that Dorn was left scared shitless of Curze after the fact. Whether it was a fair fight or not, I doubt Dorn would have pursued a second encounter, prepared or not.

Striking fear, true fear, into the heart of a Primarch is something I think no one else ever accomplished.

It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

The only things we know for certain are that Curze was unarmed and that Dorn was completely beaten.

Anything else is conjecture... including that Curze struck first. Dorn isn't know for his level-headed thinking or calm under pressure.

Actually, it's that exact trait that he is best known for.

Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

"My sorry brutha-OH NAE, SIGISMUND IS ANGREH!"

Curze picked a whole bouquet of Oopsie Daisies.

 Shidank wrote:
Actually, it's that exact trait that he is best known for.

Like when he told Guilliman to feth off when the Codex Astartes was released? Or when he rushed into Perturabo's trap?

Dorn should be know for his clear thinking like Horus should be known for his humility.

After all, the whole mess started when Dorn got pissed off about predicting Curze predict the future- correctly, I might add- and Dorn just HAD to do something stupid and short-sighted.

You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

Your examples seem to serve our argument more than your own as the exceptional times that the calm cool of Rogal Dorn faltered.

 Shidank wrote:
Your examples seem to serve our argument more than your own as the exceptional times that the calm cool of Rogal Dorn faltered.

Mhm. No ones infallible, least of all the Primarchs, but the vast majority of the time Dorn was as level headed as it gets. Everyone has a breaking point that pushes them over the edge however.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Your examples seem to serve our argument more than your own as the exceptional times that the calm cool of Rogal Dorn faltered.

Mhm. No ones infallible, least of all the Primarchs, but the vast majority of the time Dorn was as level headed as it gets. Everyone has a breaking point that pushes them over the edge however.

Exalted for truth, my brotha!

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Again, the Emperor got Dorn to fortify Terra. He'd hardly have done that if he wasn't calm under pressure would he? You can't really give three understandable examples of him losing his cool and say 'he never was cool!'

And yes, best case scenario for Dorn is his brother snapped and attacked him completey taking him by surprise... Not seeing the issue. Doesn't make him weak, he just wasn't expecting it. The element of surprise can make a huge difference. And just because Curze is crazy, he's still a bloody good fighter. I don't see how losing to him makes Dorn weak.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

Curze would have known he would kick the crap out of Dorn since before he met the Emperor. He just wouldnt know why or when. It was this that tormented him. Upon meeting Dorn he would know at some point they would get in a fight and he would kick the crap out of Dorn and Curze had no clue why and no clue when it would happen. Imagine it would be hard to make friends with peoeple you knew you were going to fight with.

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

Curze would have known he would kick the crap out of Dorn since before he met the Emperor. He just wouldnt know why or when. It was this that tormented him. Upon meeting Dorn he would know at some point they would get in a fight and he would kick the crap out of Dorn and Curze had no clue why and no clue when it would happen. Imagine it would be hard to make friends with peoeple you knew you were going to fight with.

I meant at that point in time he didn't realise. He only realised what he'd done when he was interrupted and Dorn was a bloody mess on the floor.

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

Curze would have known he would kick the crap out of Dorn since before he met the Emperor. He just wouldnt know why or when. It was this that tormented him. Upon meeting Dorn he would know at some point they would get in a fight and he would kick the crap out of Dorn and Curze had no clue why and no clue when it would happen. Imagine it would be hard to make friends with peoeple you knew you were going to fight with.

Valid proposal. It would explain his revulsion at what he'd done.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Again, the Emperor got Dorn to fortify Terra. He'd hardly have done that if he wasn't calm under pressure would he?

Building fortifications with no time constraint isn't "under pressure."

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Again, the Emperor got Dorn to fortify Terra. He'd hardly have done that if he wasn't calm under pressure would he?

Building fortifications with no time constraint isn't "under pressure."

Yeah cos with Horuses rebellion there was no time constraint...

Shush, children!

=P

But Rogal Dorn was regarded as an intensely controlled man. Everything about him was lashed, monitored, controlled... His slips were monumental slips, but few enough to mention in a brief comment.

This is the description of Dorn in Extermination:

Dorn was possessed of a single-minded energy tempered by a reserved and stoic nature. Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both this Primarch and his Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun.

Sounds pretty level headed the majority of the time to me.

 Shidank wrote:
Shush, children!

=P

But Rogal Dorn was regarded as an intensely controlled man. Everything about him was lashed, monitored, controlled... His slips were monumental slips, but few enough to mention in a brief comment.

No... those were just the few I remembered off of the top of my head.

.. and all of them resulted in Dorn getting beaten into submission, figuratively or literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
This is the description of Dorn in Extermination:

Dorn was possessed of a single-minded energy tempered by a reserved and stoic nature. Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both this Primarch and his Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun.

Sounds pretty level headed the majority of the time to me.

His "most of the time" counts like Curze is sane "most of the time" or Angron isn't killing people "most of the time" or Rowboat isn't being a pompous prick "most of the time" or Russ isn't drunk "mos-" no, Russ probably is drunk most of the time.

They're the few you remembered because that's all there is. There aren't any other occasions where he's slipped up like that. Dorn after the siege of terra was not the same Dorn before the heresy.

No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze. Curze was insane, and Angron killed countless people. False equivalences.

 ImAGeek wrote:
They're the few you remembered because that's all there is. There aren't any other occasions where he's slipped up like that. Dorn after the siege of terra was not the same Dorn before the heresy.

No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 mistakes, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead) and the thing with Curze. Curze was insane, and Angron killed countless people. False equivalences.

What about when Dorn nearly killed Captain Garro? Add that to the list. We're up to four. Siding against Girlyman counts as one as well.

... and yes, Curze was sane most of the time (brutal but sane) and Angron wasn't killing people most of the time (I NEVER said Angron wasn't crazy all the time). Remember the initial confrontation with Dorn? When the dude shot Curze in the back with a bolter? Curze was right and Dorn was wrong. Fear, in 40k, keeps people loyal. Fear of the Inquisition and the Guard and the Astartes is what holds the Imperium of 40k together, and nothing else.


Did anyone else notice that none of the other Primarchs became emo bitches when the Emperor died? It was just Dorn.

Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

None of the other Primarchs were loyal to a fault like Dorn, and none of the other Primarchs actually found the bodies just too late to actually do anything.

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

Okay then, show me a Primarch that made no mistakes ever...

Making mistakes doesn't mean he wasn't known for being cool, level headed and calm under pressure.

We're clearly not going to agree, what's the point I'm continuing?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Okay then, show me a Primarch that made no mistakes ever...

Making mistakes doesn't mean he wasn't known for being cool, level headed and calm under pressure.

It does when every time he makes a mistake, it's him not acting cool, level-headed or calm under pressure.

When Angron makes a mistake, it's him getting too pissed off to be useful. When Magnus makes a mistake, he's placing too much faith in his own abilities or not being suspicious enough of the warp. When Horus makes a mistake, he's assuming he is capable of doing anything. Those things- wrath, naivety, pride... they're flaws.

When Dorn makes a mistake, he's allowing his emotions to control him... the exact opposite of what you want to say he's like.

If Dorn were cool-headed he wouldn't have nearly killed Garro for being the bearer of bad news.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

Tell that to the men who died when the only Legion near full strength fired on Dorn's warships. (Fictional men... but you know...)

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Like when he told Guilliman to feth off when the Codex Astartes was released? Or when he rushed into Perturabo's trap?

Dorn wasn't the only Primarch to go against the Codex, and should Dorn not have relented, not the only Legion to be bought into another possible civil war.

Dorn was wrong to rush into the trap possibly, but there were still traitors in the Imperium that needed to be removed.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I might add- and Dorn just HAD to do something stupid and short-sighted.

Why was it stupid? It was a build up after Curze's actions on Cheraut and a warning had already been given that they would be having words. Fulgrim's revelations about his nightmares was the final straw. Dorn could maybe have handled the situation better, but he wasn't expecting to be sucker punched. If he had been expecting Curze to assault him I am sure that he would have gone done to speak to him in full battle plate or at least with his boxing gloves on.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

Hmm, Siege of Terra maybe? Heavily outnumbered and outgunned Dorn's command of the Imperial forces delayed the traitors long enough enabling Horus to be defeated.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Do we know that Dorn was well rested, do we know that Curze wasn't armoured at the time. We know for sure that Dorn wasn't.

IA: Night Lords
"...Lying on the stone floor, breathing shallowly, was Rogal Dorn. Blood soaked his robes, great gouges of flesh were missing from his torso. Crouching on the giant warrior's chest like a hideous white gargoyle was the hunched, pallid form of Night Haunter, his flesh covered in a film of sweat. He was panting heavily, and matted hair fell down over his jet-black eyes as he turned to face us. He was weeping, but his face was contorted into a snarl, his features wracked with hate and guilt in equal measure."

Only thing I can find mentioned about Curze is

The Dark King p4
He took in the destruction wrought on the body beneath him, raising his hands, balled into fists. Blood dripped from his fingertips and he could taste the warm richness of the genetic mastery encoded into every molecule upon his teeth.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


What about when Dorn nearly killed Captain Garro? Add that to the list. We're up to four. Siding against Girlyman counts as one as well.

Dorn could have possibly been right to do so if he hadn't had listened to him, Garro is from a traitor Legion after all, but Dorn stayed his hand. The Lion on the other hand kills his own legionnaires for advising of the Emperors Laws.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Fear, in 40k, keeps people loyal. Fear of the Inquisition and the Guard and the Astartes is what holds the Imperium of 40k together, and nothing else.

Which isn't true in all regards, there were cultures mentioned that were happy to be reunited with Terra after Long Night. They weren't loyal out of fear. It's Curze's opinion on the matter, one not held by any other Primarch.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Did anyone else notice that none of the other Primarchs became emo bitches when the Emperor died? It was just Dorn.

Do we know that this isn't the case? After the Emperors death the Lion stabs Leman Russ in anguish, Leman asks him to kill him (WD:233). We don't know the feelings of the other Primarchs as it hasn't be written. Perhaps Corax disappearance had something to do with this in addition to his remorse at his actions over the Raven Guard and the mutants he created.

On Johnson

IA: Dark Angels
The Imperium lay in ruins and the Emperor's wounds forced him to ascend to the life-preserving mechanism of Golden Throne. Jonson was stricken with grief that he had not been able to guard the Emperor against Horus's treachery, and it was in sorrow that he returned to Caliban for the first time in many years.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

It does when every time he makes a mistake, it's him not acting cool, level-headed or calm under pressure.

When Angron makes a mistake, it's him getting too pissed off to be useful. When Magnus makes a mistake, he's placing too much faith in his own abilities or not being suspicious enough of the warp. When Horus makes a mistake, he's assuming he is capable of doing anything. Those things- wrath, naivety, pride... they're flaws.

When Dorn makes a mistake, he's allowing his emotions to control him... the exact opposite of what you want to say he's like.

But these, when you break it down, are caused by emotion to so I don't get your point.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

5

Might not have been a brilliant move, but it was his duty to stop the Black Crusade, which he and his Fists did.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

Tell that to the men who died when the only Legion near full strength fired on Dorn's warships. (Fictional men... but you know...)

So being fired on was Dorn's fault?

IA: Black Templars
When the Imperial Fists began to be violently persecuted for their supposed heresies, and the strike сruiseг Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy, it was almost inevitable that once more internecine war would engulf the Space Marines аnd the Imperium. But, even аs the newly formed Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle.

Also note that it says Legions, the Imperial Fists weren't the only Legion to be kicking up a stink.

.... and relax

Didn't Dorn also beat Garro within an inch of his life (and repeatedly threaten he would kill him) for bringing the news of Horus' betrayal?

That's been discussed already.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Okay then, show me a Primarch that made no mistakes ever...

Making mistakes doesn't mean he wasn't known for being cool, level headed and calm under pressure.

It does when every time he makes a mistake, it's him not acting cool, level-headed or calm under pressure.

When Angron makes a mistake, it's him getting too pissed off to be useful. When Magnus makes a mistake, he's placing too much faith in his own abilities or not being suspicious enough of the warp. When Horus makes a mistake, he's assuming he is capable of doing anything. Those things- wrath, naivety, pride... they're flaws.

When Dorn makes a mistake, he's allowing his emotions to control him... the exact opposite of what you want to say he's like.

If Dorn were cool-headed he wouldn't have nearly killed Garro for being the bearer of bad news.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

Tell that to the men who died when the only Legion near full strength fired on Dorn's warships. (Fictional men... but you know...)

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Damn. Exalted for nailing it.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

... except when important things happen, like when he drives a brother that was already doubting and alienated from his brothers completely out of the fold... or when he charges into a trap, or beats an innocent man into a pulp for bearing bad news.


Actions speak louder than words. At no point in this discussion has any pro-Dorn poster cited an actual example of when Dorn was in a difficult situation and made a cool, level-headed decision instead of being stupidly impulsive?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.

They're treating Imperium Secundus as treason (it wasn't, it was a contingency plan).

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

... except when important things happen, like when he drives a brother that was already doubting and alienated from his brothers completely out of the fold... or when he charges into a trap, or beats an innocent man into a pulp for bearing bad news.


Actions speak louder than words. At no point in this discussion has any pro-Dorn poster cited an actual example of when Dorn was in a difficult situation and made a cool, level-headed decision instead of being stupidly impulsive?

You seem pretty dead set on ignoring what everyone else here has to say, so I'm moving on.

 Shidank wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

... except when important things happen, like when he drives a brother that was already doubting and alienated from his brothers completely out of the fold... or when he charges into a trap, or beats an innocent man into a pulp for bearing bad news.


Actions speak louder than words. At no point in this discussion has any pro-Dorn poster cited an actual example of when Dorn was in a difficult situation and made a cool, level-headed decision instead of being stupidly impulsive?

You seem pretty dead set on ignoring what everyone else here has to say, so I'm moving on.

I'm not sure how else I can say "level-headed people don't lose their heads under pressure" in a new way, but I'll keep trying... because Dorn has, repeatedly.

Dorn does. Much moreso than Sang or Guilliman. Moreso than Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

No. It is totally fair to judge Dorn for his inability to keep his emotions in check, because his brothers *did* do a better job of it. By the only means of measurement we have (comparing him to his brothers) Dorn is NOT level-headed or cool thinking.

Moving on.

The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

It was a contingency plan for if Terra had already fallen. They didn't give up on contacting Terra, they just had no way to do so at the time.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

Which BL book is that from?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

Which BL book is that from?

Unremembered Empire.

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

 kronk wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

The Dark King (and probably the Lightning Tower).

 kronk wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

Either The Lightning Tower or The Dark King, depending if you want Dorn admitting Curze scares him or Curze beating him senseless.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

The Dark King (and probably the Lightning Tower).

Thanks.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

Which BL book is that from?

Unremembered Empire.

Isn't that the one where Curze goes toe to toe with both Guilliman and the Lion? At the same time?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

Which BL book is that from?

Unremembered Empire.

Isn't that the one where Curze goes toe to toe with both Guilliman and the Lion? At the same time?

Which was genuinely terrible writing. They Mary-Sue'd Curze's precognitive abilities to him being able to predict every move made in a given fight. Never seen before or since.

Yeah Curze was written terribly in that book for some reason.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah Curze was written terribly in that book for some reason.

If by "terrible" you mean "He made the loyalists look bad in comparison," then sure.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah Curze was written terribly in that book for some reason.

If by "terrible" you mean "He made the loyalists look bad in comparison," then sure.

I mean terrible as in written like a one dimensional cartoon villain, but whatever.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah Curze was written terribly in that book for some reason.

If by "terrible" you mean "He made the loyalists look bad in comparison," then sure.

I mean terrible as in written like a one dimensional cartoon villain, but whatever.

There was virtually no effort put into any primarch, save Guilliman, in that book. Curze was an OP, mustache-twirling fiend. The laughable antics of Mr. Dastardly there hardly reflect on the actual character portrayed everywhere else in universe.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah Curze was written terribly in that book for some reason.

If by "terrible" you mean "He made the loyalists look bad in comparison," then sure.

I mean terrible as in written like a one dimensional cartoon villain, but whatever.

There was virtually no effort put into any primarch, save Guilliman, in that book. Curze was an OP, mustache-twirling fiend. The laughable antics of Mr. Dastardly there hardly reflect on the actual character portrayed everywhere else in universe.

Yeah. I don't really get it because it was a pretty good book in most respects, but some of the characterisation was terrible. I really like Guilliman though so I still enjoyed it.

You have to admit, it doesn't make sense. In the first fight between Lion and Curze, they both come off a cropper. The second, Curze is put into a coma. Then in a fight with two Primarchs, one that has between him before, he manages to hold his own and then nearly blow them up. It doesn't seem to sit right. You could put this down to Curze transformation I guess, well I believe there to be some form of transformation, one which started in Vulkan Lives. It's mentioned that Curze has become a thing of shadow and how his mouth opens insanely wide, stuff like that. I believe that by the time of Unremembered Empire Curze has truly begun to be corrupted by Chaos due to his actions. Could be an explanation of his improved capability.

But then we have Polux who does the same amount of damage as two Primarchs. So Polux could hold his own against Lion and Guilliman as well and then maybe beat Curze in a 1v1.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You have to admit, it doesn't make sense. In the first fight between Lion and Curze, they both come off a cropper. The second, Curze is put into a coma. Then in a fight with two Primarchs, one that has between him before, he manages to hold his own and then nearly blow them up. It doesn't seem to sit right. You could put this down to Curze transformation I guess, well I believe there to be some form of transformation, one which started in Vulkan Lives. It's mentioned that Curze has become a thing of shadow and how his mouth opens insanely wide, stuff like that. I believe that by the time of Unremembered Empire Curze has truly begun to be corrupted by Chaos due to his actions. Could be an explanation of his improved capability.

But then we have Polux who does the same amount of damage as two Primarchs. So Polux could hold his own against Lion and Guilliman as well and then maybe beat Curze in a 1v1.

Unremembered Empire painted Curze in a bad light that heavily skewed the perception of the character. I enjoyed the weird twists in Vulkan Lives, as you were never sure what was real and what was Vulkan's impending madness.

 Shidank wrote:


Unremembered Empire painted Curze in a bad light that heavily skewed the perception of the character. I enjoyed the weird twists in Vulkan Lives, as you were never sure what was real and what was Vulkan's impending madness.

Depends on your perspective though doesn't it. The character here isn't much different from that in Vulkan Lives, or Savage Weapons or Prince of Crows or any other tale featuring Curze.

I was just putting forth a possible explanation, one that would fit with the eventual monster who dies at the hands of M'shen in the Screaming Gallery on Tsagualsa.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Unremembered Empire painted Curze in a bad light that heavily skewed the perception of the character. I enjoyed the weird twists in Vulkan Lives, as you were never sure what was real and what was Vulkan's impending madness.

Depends on your perspective though doesn't it. The character here isn't much different from that in Vulkan Lives, or Savage Weapons or Prince of Crows or any other tale featuring Curze.

I was just putting forth a possible explanation, one that would fit with the eventual monster who dies at the hands of M'shen in the Screaming Gallery on Tsagualsa.

Since I didn't disagree with you, I'm not sure what you're asking.

 Shidank wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Unremembered Empire painted Curze in a bad light that heavily skewed the perception of the character. I enjoyed the weird twists in Vulkan Lives, as you were never sure what was real and what was Vulkan's impending madness.

Depends on your perspective though doesn't it. The character here isn't much different from that in Vulkan Lives, or Savage Weapons or Prince of Crows or any other tale featuring Curze.

I was just putting forth a possible explanation, one that would fit with the eventual monster who dies at the hands of M'shen in the Screaming Gallery on Tsagualsa.

Since I didn't disagree with you, I'm not sure what you're asking.

Sorry, I wasn't sure what you were getting at so emphasized my point.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Unremembered Empire painted Curze in a bad light that heavily skewed the perception of the character. I enjoyed the weird twists in Vulkan Lives, as you were never sure what was real and what was Vulkan's impending madness.

Depends on your perspective though doesn't it. The character here isn't much different from that in Vulkan Lives, or Savage Weapons or Prince of Crows or any other tale featuring Curze.

I was just putting forth a possible explanation, one that would fit with the eventual monster who dies at the hands of M'shen in the Screaming Gallery on Tsagualsa.

Since I didn't disagree with you, I'm not sure what you're asking.

Sorry, I wasn't sure what you were getting at so emphasized my point.

Perfectly fine! I'd actually forgotten the mouth-stretching bit. Whether Vulkan's own madness or Curze's transformation, it was an impactful scene. I can't believe I forgot it lol

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You have to admit, it doesn't make sense. In the first fight between Lion and Curze, they both come off a cropper. The second, Curze is put into a coma. Then in a fight with two Primarchs, one that has between him before, he manages to hold his own and then nearly blow them up. It doesn't seem to sit right. You could put this down to Curze transformation I guess, well I believe there to be some form of transformation, one which started in Vulkan Lives. It's mentioned that Curze has become a thing of shadow and how his mouth opens insanely wide, stuff like that. I believe that by the time of Unremembered Empire Curze has truly begun to be corrupted by Chaos due to his actions. Could be an explanation of his improved capability.

But then we have Polux who does the same amount of damage as two Primarchs. So Polux could hold his own against Lion and Guilliman as well and then maybe beat Curze in a 1v1.

That's an interesting take on it, Pilau. I hadn't considered that.