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Angron's slave uprising was a failure. He and his fellow gladiators were dead men.

 Formosa wrote:
everyone else had a pre made empire to run

Not true. Many of the primach's homeworlds were far less civilized than Nuceria.

 Formosa wrote:
he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse

He actually lost.

 Flame-Rage wrote:
he managed to get a primative world to fight off dark eldar raiders

Seems like he once drove away some pirates from a single town on Nocturne. (Maybe he also commanded the Ewoks on Endor?)

it wasn't a failure, it achieved exactly what it was intended, to allow him and his fellows to die free, that's success, otherwise he would have conquered a city, fortified, moved on etc.

he didn't want to become another dictator or despot, so he didn't.

that's success on your own terms, not your enemies.

I guess he should have just shoved a sword in his neck as soon as he first broke his shackles then.

 Manchu wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
everyone else had a pre made empire to run

Not true. Many of the primach's homeworlds were far less civilized than Nuceria.

 Formosa wrote:
he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse

He actually lost.

 Flame-Rage wrote:
he managed to get a primative world to fight off dark eldar raiders

Seems like he once drove away some pirates from a single town on Nocturne. (Maybe he also commanded the Ewoks on Endor?)

Nuceria tech was just post our own, so using slaves to beat that and winning (which he did, only when they all united did they push him back), so he did infact kick arse.

again he didn't lose, he achieved his goal, the emperor interfered and thus people think he lost.

Your point about nocturne is the only correct thing you said, so ill accept that.

Again, Angron could have accomplished the goal of "dying free" pretty much whenever. In any case, that is not a coherent goal for an army, which would just support the argument of him being the worst general among the traitor primarchs. But in any case, the "I'd rather have died free" thing actually reflects how he viewed things after being saved/abducted by the Emperor.

Oh I certainly agree he was a bad general, he just didn't care as he considered himself dead already, the bonds of brotherhood he made with the slaves of nuceria are the only ones he cared about.

And he had a point to prove to the slavemasters, that being free is worth any price and he proved that quite perfectly, they told stories of the slave revolt for generations after he "ran away" sadly he came back and wiped out the planet.

So while diving on his sword immediately would have achieved the "death on my terms" leading a revolt and getting revenge proved it in a much better way, imagine if that happened to this world these days, whole cities ransacked by nothing more than under equipped slaves and surgery induced madmen, and it took the world to unite to defeat it, that's a hell of an achievement

I'd give it to Mortarion.

Guy took a bunch of untrained frail citizens and beat armies of undeath and demons with themm,

On a planet so toxic not even the primarch known for beign tough could climb too high.

 Formosa wrote:
that's a hell of an achievement

It sounds like Angron only managed to take advantage of his enemies' (a) apathy and (b) poor organization. But as soon as they took him seriously and united against him, he was cornered and defeated. In other words, he made a huge mess that the authorities were about to clean up for good. I can see where you're coming from but I personally don't count a planetary-scale temper tantrum as an achievement.

Indeed, it's hard to understand why the Emperor even spared Angron if you're one of those people who deny that the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amoras wrote:
I'd give it to Mortarion.

Guy took a bunch of untrained frail citizens and beat armies of undeath and demons with themm,

On a planet so toxic not even the primarch known for beign tough could climb too high.

This is another good example of why I didn't want to lay out guidelines for what counts as an "accomplishment." Along with Angron, I'd say that Mortarion ultimately failed. But like Angron, Mortarion did whip a bunch of oppressed ragtag nobodies into an effective fighting force.

I would like to say Corax took a bunch of slaves and fought against an army that had more than superior firepower and arms than his forces did using stealth and guerilla tactics, then managed to nuke the planet they were orbiting to stop any reinforcements from coming up. Kind of what angron did with his slave revolt only more successful (partially due to getting raised by the prisoners)

Corax's soldiers were slaves only by dint of being political prisoners. So in other words they were exactly the kind of people suited to fighting "The Man" in guerrilla cells (think Rebel Alliance). That could very well be what landed some of them in prison to begin with. While Corax successfully shattered the old order, we will never know whether he could have forged and administered a stable new order.

I have to fanboy about Ferrus Manus for a second. He survived until adulthood alone and unaided on a hostile world. Not because he had to, but because he wanted to. When he felt he was strong enough to survive any challenge of his world, he left the shadows and advanced a society from the Iron Age to post-Dark Age of Technology at breakneck speed, using only the deductions of his own mind. The guy's a walking technological singularity. And that's not even mentioning the whole "strangled what is implied to be a C'tan to death in a pool of molten lava" thing.

 j31c3n wrote:
I have to fanboy about Ferrus Manus for a second. He survived until adulthood alone and unaided on a hostile world. Not because he had to, but because he wanted to. When he felt he was strong enough to survive any challenge of his world, he left the shadows and advanced a society from the Iron Age to post-Dark Age of Technology at breakneck speed, using only the deductions of his own mind. The guy's a walking technological singularity. And that's not even mentioning the whole "strangled what is implied to be a C'tan to death in a pool of molten lava" thing.

How long did it take him to reach adulthood though? I think Sanguinius was said to be the size of a full grown man by the time he was a year old, and would already have been far stronger/tougher than any man his size.

I don't think it's specified, but I would assume he hit adulthood as fast as any other Primarch. It's implied by the text that he had the mental faculties of an adult from the moment he stepped out of his pod, because he was able to note its markings and characteristics... but I would imagine that's hardly unusual for a Primarch.

 Formosa wrote:
Angron, everyone else had a pre made empire to run, he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse, if you gave me macragge and its out lying world and entire armies, being raised by the king etc. im sure id have done a good job too, Guilliman didn't achieve much at all, it was all pre existing and he built upon it after he was found

If you where on Mcragge in Gulliman's position you would not have survived. you would have almost certinly been killed in Gallan's revolt. assuming you didn't fail utterly and die fighting Illyrium.

if I were in guillimans place I would be guilliman, all the upbringing all the training etc.

it doesn't take a genius to beat an enemy with the loyalty of the military and all the resources backing you, also I would never have allowed gallan to get into the position he was in, I wouldn't be as trusting as roboute.

 Formosa wrote:
if I were in guillimans place I would be guilliman, all the upbringing all the training etc.

it doesn't take a genius to beat an enemy with the loyalty of the military and all the resources backing you, also I would never have allowed gallan to get into the position he was in, I wouldn't be as trusting as roboute.

Short of launching a coup to make your father supreme dictator what exactly would you have done? Gallan was his father's co-consul.

I think we can safely assume each primarch did the best that he could in the circumstances. So if they failed to achieve much, it could be a sign of weakness. For example, Mortarion's fear of death is foreshadowed by his inability to defeat his adoptive father.

 Manchu wrote:
Why hate Fulgrim?

I don't think he gets enough credit at all. His IA background shows he was a masterful administrator, which is pretty key to running a giant army. The Emperor surely acknowledged that his gifts were exceptional even among the primarchs, given his Legion's namesake and the then-unique right to wear the aquila.

IIRC his legion was given the name and right you mentioned because of Fulgrim's grandiloquent speech after he was discovered by the Emperor. And I can't remember if anything about his skills in administration, etc played a role in that privilege, but I doubt it.

So he smooth-talked the Emperor? -_-

 Manchu wrote:
So he smooth-talked the Emperor? -_-

Dug out your Betrayal copy yet? It'll be in there

I should post a picture of the stuff I have to ... excavate is the only fair word ... to get to it.

Also, I was being just a tad sarcastic with that last post.

I' really surprised so much people voted for Roboute Guilliman, since, of all primarchs, he had the biggest head start.


I voted for Curze.

Unlike all other primarchs, Curze had absolutely no allies, no adoptive father, no inheritance. He single-handedly scared an entire planet into submission.

Broly wrote:
I' really surprised so much people voted for Roboute Guilliman, since, of all primarchs, he had the biggest head start.


I voted for Curze.

Unlike all other primarchs, Curze had absolutely no allies, no adoptive father, no inheritance. He single-handedly scared an entire planet into submission.

The second he left though, it went back to the way it was. I'm not sure I'd call that a meaningful victory. I like Curze and the NL, but I dunno if his methods had much merit. If you rule entirely through fear, what happens when the object of their fear goes?

It depends on your definition of 'greatest accomplisments'.

Fulgrim, Curze, Lorgar, Dorn, Gulliman, Khan, Russ, Magnus, Corax, Ferrus Manus, The Lion and Sanguinius definitely were all effectively ruling their own planets (at least) before the Emperor arrived.

Peturabo wasn't the ruler (he was Dammekos' henchman) and Vulkan would have resented being called a 'ruler' but both have a fair claim to 'ruling a world' too.

So actually ruling a planet doesn't really mean that much. The next question is; who had to come the furthest to do that?

Not Gulliman. He was adopted, raised, trained and educated by a man who was already ruler of a major city-state, and inherited its resources.

Not Peturabo. He too essentially took Lochlos' armies and just expanded its borders.

Nor Dorn. Raised by the Patriarch of the House of Dorn, and inheriting an existing structure.

Equally, Fulgrim was raised by one of the Caretakers of Chemos, so was already in line for rulership of the world

Magnus was raised by Amon, one of the ruling council of Psyker-Scholars on Prospero.

Jaghati Khan wasn't raised by the ruler of a world, but Ong Khan, his adoptive father, was still the ruler of a tribe with non-trivial military forces.

Leman Russ was raised by wolves, but would have stayed up in the hills howling had he not been brought to the court of Thengir of the Russ.

Sanguinius might be one of the good claims or might not - it's all a bit vague; but again, essentially the Pure Blood Tribe found him, went 'It's Space Jesus!' and made him their leader once he grew up. Certainly he won the war against the mutants, but other than that we don't really know..

Lorgar has more of a claim but not much - he was raised by the priesthood on Colchis, but didn't start out at the top - he became friends with Kor Phaeron during his service. That said, Kor Phaeron was the High Priest, so once Lorgar had him on side, it was all over bar the shouting.

The Lion, equally, has a better claim but not a great one. Yes, he's a swordsman and a tactician beyond compare. But the Lion's story starts with him surviving in the forests of Caliban (impressive!) then walking out and being shot in the face with a bolt round. The reason it didn't play out like that is due to Luther, and unlike other primarchs who may have had assorted hangers-on floating around, a lot of the credit for the 'pre-reunification accomplishments' go to him, not the primarch. The Order already existed, and Luther is the one who got the other various knightly orders to sign on to the Lion's crusade.


That leaves, to my mind, Ferrus, Curze and Corax. Both started with worlds who didn't even know they existed, and managed to take rulership.

I don't think Fulgrim inherited leadership of Chemos at all. From what i have read, he came up through the ranks from a lowly worker to CEO. Also, the Caretakers were just a police force and not some kind of leadership body.

Ferrus Manus definitely accomplished the most, he basically started building his own version of the Mechanicum. If he had been left alone for another century, his tech probably would have rivaled that of the Pre-Fall Eldar.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think Fulgrim inherited leadership of Chemos at all. From what i have read, he came up through the ranks from a lowly worker to CEO. Also, the Caretakers were just a police force and not some kind of leadership body.

Indeed

IA Emperors Children:
Not only was he physically proficient, he quickly grew to understand the technology of the machines he worked with, and began to contemplate their improvement. By the fifteenth anniversary of his fall from the sky, Fulgrim had risen from the ranks of the workers, first becoming an engineer then one of the Executive itself. Learning of the slow deterioration in Callax and the other settlements of Chemos, Fulgrim set himself the task of saving his world.

One by one he convinced his fellow members of the Executive to fight against the entropy that was destroying Chemos. Under Fulgrim's leadership, teams of engineers travelled far from the factory-fortresses, reclaiming long-dead outposts in the planet's most inaccessible regions. The ancient mines were reopened and expanded, bringing more and more minerals into Callax and allowing the construction of more sophisticated machines. Recycling efficiency grew until, at last, Callax was producing more that it consumed. Seeing his people prosper, Fulgrim took pride in fostering he re-emergence of art and culture, reclaiming the spirit of humanity that had been sacrificed so long ago in the struggle or survival. As Callax grew, the other settlements began to ally themselves with Fulgrim. Fifty years after Fulgrim fell from the sky he rose to sole rulership of Chemos

dusara217 wrote:Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

dusara217 wrote:The Lion had the greatest accomplishments. I mean, he got into the most disciplined and highly trained Knightly Order on his planet, rose to the rank of Grandmaster, purged his entire planet of a major DAEMON INFESTATION using maybe 50K ORDINARY HUMAN KNIGHTS in less than ten years. Plus, he survived his first few years in daemon-infested, poisonous-monster-hunted, death world forests. And keep in mind, he survived in the North Wilds - literally the most dangerous forest of a planet covered in insanely dangerous forests.

dusara217 wrote:Ferrus Manus definitely accomplished the most, he basically started building his own version of the Mechanicum. If he had been left alone for another century, his tech probably would have rivaled that of the Pre-Fall Eldar.

Bit of trouble making your mind up?

It's not necessarily about "making up your mind," it's about considering the question fully.