Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Again, the Emperor got Dorn to fortify Terra. He'd hardly have done that if he wasn't calm under pressure would he?

Building fortifications with no time constraint isn't "under pressure."

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Again, the Emperor got Dorn to fortify Terra. He'd hardly have done that if he wasn't calm under pressure would he?

Building fortifications with no time constraint isn't "under pressure."

Yeah cos with Horuses rebellion there was no time constraint...

Shush, children!

=P

But Rogal Dorn was regarded as an intensely controlled man. Everything about him was lashed, monitored, controlled... His slips were monumental slips, but few enough to mention in a brief comment.

This is the description of Dorn in Extermination:

Dorn was possessed of a single-minded energy tempered by a reserved and stoic nature. Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both this Primarch and his Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun.

Sounds pretty level headed the majority of the time to me.

 Shidank wrote:
Shush, children!

=P

But Rogal Dorn was regarded as an intensely controlled man. Everything about him was lashed, monitored, controlled... His slips were monumental slips, but few enough to mention in a brief comment.

No... those were just the few I remembered off of the top of my head.

.. and all of them resulted in Dorn getting beaten into submission, figuratively or literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
This is the description of Dorn in Extermination:

Dorn was possessed of a single-minded energy tempered by a reserved and stoic nature. Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both this Primarch and his Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun.

Sounds pretty level headed the majority of the time to me.

His "most of the time" counts like Curze is sane "most of the time" or Angron isn't killing people "most of the time" or Rowboat isn't being a pompous prick "most of the time" or Russ isn't drunk "mos-" no, Russ probably is drunk most of the time.

They're the few you remembered because that's all there is. There aren't any other occasions where he's slipped up like that. Dorn after the siege of terra was not the same Dorn before the heresy.

No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze. Curze was insane, and Angron killed countless people. False equivalences.

 ImAGeek wrote:
They're the few you remembered because that's all there is. There aren't any other occasions where he's slipped up like that. Dorn after the siege of terra was not the same Dorn before the heresy.

No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 mistakes, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead) and the thing with Curze. Curze was insane, and Angron killed countless people. False equivalences.

What about when Dorn nearly killed Captain Garro? Add that to the list. We're up to four. Siding against Girlyman counts as one as well.

... and yes, Curze was sane most of the time (brutal but sane) and Angron wasn't killing people most of the time (I NEVER said Angron wasn't crazy all the time). Remember the initial confrontation with Dorn? When the dude shot Curze in the back with a bolter? Curze was right and Dorn was wrong. Fear, in 40k, keeps people loyal. Fear of the Inquisition and the Guard and the Astartes is what holds the Imperium of 40k together, and nothing else.


Did anyone else notice that none of the other Primarchs became emo bitches when the Emperor died? It was just Dorn.

Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

None of the other Primarchs were loyal to a fault like Dorn, and none of the other Primarchs actually found the bodies just too late to actually do anything.

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

Okay then, show me a Primarch that made no mistakes ever...

Making mistakes doesn't mean he wasn't known for being cool, level headed and calm under pressure.

We're clearly not going to agree, what's the point I'm continuing?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Okay then, show me a Primarch that made no mistakes ever...

Making mistakes doesn't mean he wasn't known for being cool, level headed and calm under pressure.

It does when every time he makes a mistake, it's him not acting cool, level-headed or calm under pressure.

When Angron makes a mistake, it's him getting too pissed off to be useful. When Magnus makes a mistake, he's placing too much faith in his own abilities or not being suspicious enough of the warp. When Horus makes a mistake, he's assuming he is capable of doing anything. Those things- wrath, naivety, pride... they're flaws.

When Dorn makes a mistake, he's allowing his emotions to control him... the exact opposite of what you want to say he's like.

If Dorn were cool-headed he wouldn't have nearly killed Garro for being the bearer of bad news.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

Tell that to the men who died when the only Legion near full strength fired on Dorn's warships. (Fictional men... but you know...)

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Like when he told Guilliman to feth off when the Codex Astartes was released? Or when he rushed into Perturabo's trap?

Dorn wasn't the only Primarch to go against the Codex, and should Dorn not have relented, not the only Legion to be bought into another possible civil war.

Dorn was wrong to rush into the trap possibly, but there were still traitors in the Imperium that needed to be removed.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I might add- and Dorn just HAD to do something stupid and short-sighted.

Why was it stupid? It was a build up after Curze's actions on Cheraut and a warning had already been given that they would be having words. Fulgrim's revelations about his nightmares was the final straw. Dorn could maybe have handled the situation better, but he wasn't expecting to be sucker punched. If he had been expecting Curze to assault him I am sure that he would have gone done to speak to him in full battle plate or at least with his boxing gloves on.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

Hmm, Siege of Terra maybe? Heavily outnumbered and outgunned Dorn's command of the Imperial forces delayed the traitors long enough enabling Horus to be defeated.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Do we know that Dorn was well rested, do we know that Curze wasn't armoured at the time. We know for sure that Dorn wasn't.

IA: Night Lords
"...Lying on the stone floor, breathing shallowly, was Rogal Dorn. Blood soaked his robes, great gouges of flesh were missing from his torso. Crouching on the giant warrior's chest like a hideous white gargoyle was the hunched, pallid form of Night Haunter, his flesh covered in a film of sweat. He was panting heavily, and matted hair fell down over his jet-black eyes as he turned to face us. He was weeping, but his face was contorted into a snarl, his features wracked with hate and guilt in equal measure."

Only thing I can find mentioned about Curze is

The Dark King p4
He took in the destruction wrought on the body beneath him, raising his hands, balled into fists. Blood dripped from his fingertips and he could taste the warm richness of the genetic mastery encoded into every molecule upon his teeth.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


What about when Dorn nearly killed Captain Garro? Add that to the list. We're up to four. Siding against Girlyman counts as one as well.

Dorn could have possibly been right to do so if he hadn't had listened to him, Garro is from a traitor Legion after all, but Dorn stayed his hand. The Lion on the other hand kills his own legionnaires for advising of the Emperors Laws.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Fear, in 40k, keeps people loyal. Fear of the Inquisition and the Guard and the Astartes is what holds the Imperium of 40k together, and nothing else.

Which isn't true in all regards, there were cultures mentioned that were happy to be reunited with Terra after Long Night. They weren't loyal out of fear. It's Curze's opinion on the matter, one not held by any other Primarch.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Did anyone else notice that none of the other Primarchs became emo bitches when the Emperor died? It was just Dorn.

Do we know that this isn't the case? After the Emperors death the Lion stabs Leman Russ in anguish, Leman asks him to kill him (WD:233). We don't know the feelings of the other Primarchs as it hasn't be written. Perhaps Corax disappearance had something to do with this in addition to his remorse at his actions over the Raven Guard and the mutants he created.

On Johnson

IA: Dark Angels
The Imperium lay in ruins and the Emperor's wounds forced him to ascend to the life-preserving mechanism of Golden Throne. Jonson was stricken with grief that he had not been able to guard the Emperor against Horus's treachery, and it was in sorrow that he returned to Caliban for the first time in many years.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

It does when every time he makes a mistake, it's him not acting cool, level-headed or calm under pressure.

When Angron makes a mistake, it's him getting too pissed off to be useful. When Magnus makes a mistake, he's placing too much faith in his own abilities or not being suspicious enough of the warp. When Horus makes a mistake, he's assuming he is capable of doing anything. Those things- wrath, naivety, pride... they're flaws.

When Dorn makes a mistake, he's allowing his emotions to control him... the exact opposite of what you want to say he's like.

But these, when you break it down, are caused by emotion to so I don't get your point.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

5

Might not have been a brilliant move, but it was his duty to stop the Black Crusade, which he and his Fists did.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

Tell that to the men who died when the only Legion near full strength fired on Dorn's warships. (Fictional men... but you know...)

So being fired on was Dorn's fault?

IA: Black Templars
When the Imperial Fists began to be violently persecuted for their supposed heresies, and the strike сruiseг Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy, it was almost inevitable that once more internecine war would engulf the Space Marines аnd the Imperium. But, even аs the newly formed Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle.

Also note that it says Legions, the Imperial Fists weren't the only Legion to be kicking up a stink.

.... and relax

Didn't Dorn also beat Garro within an inch of his life (and repeatedly threaten he would kill him) for bringing the news of Horus' betrayal?

That's been discussed already.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Okay then, show me a Primarch that made no mistakes ever...

Making mistakes doesn't mean he wasn't known for being cool, level headed and calm under pressure.

It does when every time he makes a mistake, it's him not acting cool, level-headed or calm under pressure.

When Angron makes a mistake, it's him getting too pissed off to be useful. When Magnus makes a mistake, he's placing too much faith in his own abilities or not being suspicious enough of the warp. When Horus makes a mistake, he's assuming he is capable of doing anything. Those things- wrath, naivety, pride... they're flaws.

When Dorn makes a mistake, he's allowing his emotions to control him... the exact opposite of what you want to say he's like.

If Dorn were cool-headed he wouldn't have nearly killed Garro for being the bearer of bad news.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


No it doesn't. Curze and Angron weren't sane most of the time. Dorn made like 2 major mistakes we've seen, the Iron Cage (after he found his father nearly dead and was pretty broken and sucicidal) and the thing with Curze.

leading a small boarding party onto the Sword of Sacrilege certainly wasn't a brilliant move

5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why does siding against Guilliman count..? He just had a difference of opinion on how they should act, he didn't lose his cool...

Tell that to the men who died when the only Legion near full strength fired on Dorn's warships. (Fictional men... but you know...)

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Damn. Exalted for nailing it.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

... except when important things happen, like when he drives a brother that was already doubting and alienated from his brothers completely out of the fold... or when he charges into a trap, or beats an innocent man into a pulp for bearing bad news.


Actions speak louder than words. At no point in this discussion has any pro-Dorn poster cited an actual example of when Dorn was in a difficult situation and made a cool, level-headed decision instead of being stupidly impulsive?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.

They're treating Imperium Secundus as treason (it wasn't, it was a contingency plan).

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

... except when important things happen, like when he drives a brother that was already doubting and alienated from his brothers completely out of the fold... or when he charges into a trap, or beats an innocent man into a pulp for bearing bad news.


Actions speak louder than words. At no point in this discussion has any pro-Dorn poster cited an actual example of when Dorn was in a difficult situation and made a cool, level-headed decision instead of being stupidly impulsive?

You seem pretty dead set on ignoring what everyone else here has to say, so I'm moving on.

 Shidank wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

Bring me up to speed on the treason Girlyman and Sang committed. I have missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

By saying that his greatest blunders are the few times he's not level-headed, you are(in fact) supporting us when we say that Dorn was known for being calm, cool, and collected. It's why he was chosen as Praetor. He's as stoic as stone.

... except when important things happen, like when he drives a brother that was already doubting and alienated from his brothers completely out of the fold... or when he charges into a trap, or beats an innocent man into a pulp for bearing bad news.


Actions speak louder than words. At no point in this discussion has any pro-Dorn poster cited an actual example of when Dorn was in a difficult situation and made a cool, level-headed decision instead of being stupidly impulsive?

You seem pretty dead set on ignoring what everyone else here has to say, so I'm moving on.

I'm not sure how else I can say "level-headed people don't lose their heads under pressure" in a new way, but I'll keep trying... because Dorn has, repeatedly.

Dorn does. Much moreso than Sang or Guilliman. Moreso than Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Also, Dorn's governing virtue was duty, duty without glory. he was stoic and rational. His few mistakes when his emotions got the better of him are nothing compare to the mistakes and blunders that other Primarchs had. Even if we limit it to loyalist Primarchs, Guliman basically committed treason before the battle of terra, sanguinius was right there with him, leman Russ committed genocide against the Thousand sons, and apparently did it with pleasure (and he stayed a "good guy"). To fault Dorn for his few moments of emotional weakness in response to cataclysms and tragedies on a scale that we has earthbound humans have no frame of reference for is not fair to his character.

No. It is totally fair to judge Dorn for his inability to keep his emotions in check, because his brothers *did* do a better job of it. By the only means of measurement we have (comparing him to his brothers) Dorn is NOT level-headed or cool thinking.

Moving on.

The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

It was a contingency plan for if Terra had already fallen. They didn't give up on contacting Terra, they just had no way to do so at the time.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

Which BL book is that from?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
The treason i am referring to is the empire guiliman tried to set up and sangunius helped with. This was pre battle of terra so the emperor was still functioning. Granted they were cut off from terra by warp storms. I consider it a treasonous act because they basically gave up on trying to connect with the emperor. i used the situation and the description I did to illustrate the choices that had to be made and that subjective view points could be made to describe those actions in a variety of ways. And, despite certain intractabilities in the conversation, Dorn's track record of stoicism , implacability, and reliably non emotional response, with the exception of a reaction to a hand full of highly charged, difficult and emotional situations, while could be construed as losing his cool when he needed it most, also could be shown as reasonable deviations from an established behavior. i don't think anyone's opinions are going to be changed, but at least we should respect each other's abilities to interpret a highly variable and inconsistent fluff. the intentional degree of subjectivness in the BL books is to let people come to their own conclusions. we should respect that, and keep things civil.

Which BL book is that from?

Unremembered Empire.

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

 kronk wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

The Dark King (and probably the Lightning Tower).

 kronk wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

Either The Lightning Tower or The Dark King, depending if you want Dorn admitting Curze scares him or Curze beating him senseless.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

What book is this from?

The Dark King (and probably the Lightning Tower).

Thanks.