Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the merciless bastard aspect of IH is what I love about them.

That certainly fits with their disposition in M41, where they'd call off a battle if they were a single bolter shell short.

So, are we suggesting the IH had aspergers?

No, that's literally something it says in the Codex. The Iron Hands take machinelike logic to an insane level and perform intricate logisitical calculations to see if a given battle, campaign, or action is worth its projected cost. They've called stuff off for the want of a single bolter shell.

I suppose we could say efficiency at that level is an accomplishment all its own, but I personally prefer Perturabo's approach.

To me, the greatest tragedy isn't Pert and Dorn being enemies, it's that Pert and Manus weren't better friends. The IW marines are constantly reminded by their primarch how worthy the Iron Hands were as foes.

That's a good point actually. The interplay between the Hands and the Warriors would have been interesting to read about.

Maybe we'll have some fluff on it later, but I'm not holding my breath. They blew through the early HH books and are content to let the end of it grind on at their usual glacial pace. We'd have had to see this in the first run of books or not at all.

Yeah I doubt we'll see it. Would be cool though.

 Manchu wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Didn't realise Fulgrim wasn't a worker either. That puts him in pretty much the same league.

What? Fulgrim did start out as a worker on Chemos but eventually rose to become essentially planetary CEO.

As to Ferrus - all this talk about him not having a STC ... so what? His intellect was genetically engineered to be far in advance of the most ingenious AdMech magi. Of course he could reverse engineer machines. For him, it was the equivalent of us changing the batteries in a remote control. And what did he achieve with that astounding acumen? He gave a few lectures to some tribes and let them keep up their infighting. I haven't read the IA entry for IH in a long time so maybe this led to much better standards of living on Medusa or something but I heavily doubt that because of course Ferrus would consider that sort of thing weak.

Close. He started as an engineer, not a grunt worker

 dusara217 wrote:
Close. He started as an engineer, not a grunt worker

Here's what IA says:

Fulgrim grew unnaturally fast, becoming a strong, capable man. At half the age of his fellow workers he was able to fulfil his obligations to the Executive, working for days without rest. Not only was he physically proficient, he quickly grew to understand the technology of the machines he worked with, and began to contemplate their improvement.

The text strongly implies he did physical labor with machines.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Doesn't he (corax) then have a chat with the emperor and then nuke the planet the moon is connected too? Something about making the right choice and not the morally good/bad choice.

I think (according to Deliverance Lost) that he nuked the fright elevator with some hot-wired mining charges and caused the planet to go into a warring state when the Empy came to say hi.


I hope I remembered that correctly.

 Jinx Magiga wrote:
Alpharius,he had a fleet ready and unlike the other primarchs went to the crusade instead of the crusade coming to him.

Did he shout "for the emperor" as he charged even back then to confuse Horus?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for Alpharius. Dude had an interstellar pirate fleet and killed his way to the Warmaster.

yeah it's mighty impressive to land a bording party on a battle barge and make it all the way to the bridge.

Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Why so few votes for Mortarion?
Didn't he basically fight an entire planet free of insanely superior Xenos/Nurglite overlords, who had superior men, terrain, organisation and powers?
On the awesome scale of 1 to 50, he's around 777 (with Marbo and a few Tanith)
I'd say that this beats expanding a solar empire, or getting a few ships to raid people with.

Plus, he wins because he's basically Batman
Badass in a cape, that terrifies people and mysteriously apprears out of knowhere and can't be killed!

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
Why so few votes for Mortarion?
Didn't he basically fight an entire planet free of insanely superior Xenos/Nurglite overlords, who had superior men, terrain, organisation and powers?
On the awesome scale of 1 to 50, he's around 777 (with Marbo and a few Tanith)
I'd say that this beats expanding a solar empire, or getting a few ships to raid people with.

Plus, he wins because he's basically Batman
Badass in a cape, that terrifies people and mysteriously apprears out of knowhere and can't be killed!

Well, he almost died and the Emperor has to save his ass, but yeah. He did okay but nothing astounding.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Batman always wins

Going by personal accomplishment and hardship faced. Curze is probably the winner, with Lion coming in second.

Curze fell into a world that makes Necromunda look nice. Gangs and corrupt officials controlled the streets and looking at someone the wrong way would get you killed. Curze grew up without any assistance, making a name for himself even at a young age as a dangerous figure. He was able to gain planetary renown without revealing himself to the public and set up an empire from the shadows. He was able to turn his planet from a constant street fight into a land of law and order, bringing prosperity to its people.

Unlike the other primarchs, Curze had no real reason to improve his planet besides that it would help the people. Curze was plagued with dreams of the future. He knew that the emperor was coming to take him away. He could have just waited for the emperor's arrival, but he decided to make his home a better place in the meantime.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

Given that Dorn was the one who was pissed off when the conversation began, it's just as likely that Dorn threw the first punch.

We do know that Dorn was left scared shitless of Curze after the fact. Whether it was a fair fight or not, I doubt Dorn would have pursued a second encounter, prepared or not.

Striking fear, true fear, into the heart of a Primarch is something I think no one else ever accomplished.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

Given that Dorn was the one who was pissed off when the conversation began, it's just as likely that Dorn threw the first punch.

We do know that Dorn was left scared shitless of Curze after the fact. Whether it was a fair fight or not, I doubt Dorn would have pursued a second encounter, prepared or not.

Striking fear, true fear, into the heart of a Primarch is something I think no one else ever accomplished.

It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

 Shidank wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Let's not forget Curze's primary accomplishment- effortlessly beating Rogal Dorn into a pulp.

Should it have been an equal fight, rather than an assault, I might agree with you.

Given that Dorn was the one who was pissed off when the conversation began, it's just as likely that Dorn threw the first punch.

We do know that Dorn was left scared shitless of Curze after the fact. Whether it was a fair fight or not, I doubt Dorn would have pursued a second encounter, prepared or not.

Striking fear, true fear, into the heart of a Primarch is something I think no one else ever accomplished.

It's relatively well-known that Curze had an episode and attacked Dorn without further provocation. Dorn was surprised and confused by the assault. This was not fair in any sense.

Dorn was unsettled by the implication that there could be flaws in the genetic perfection of Primarchs and what it truly implied for the Space Marine Legions.

To say Dorn was "scared shitless of Curze" is a simplistic view.

The only things we know for certain are that Curze was unarmed and that Dorn was completely beaten.

Anything else is conjecture... including that Curze struck first. Dorn isn't know for his level-headed thinking or calm under pressure.

Actually, it's that exact trait that he is best known for.

Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

"My sorry brutha-OH NAE, SIGISMUND IS ANGREH!"

Curze picked a whole bouquet of Oopsie Daisies.

 Shidank wrote:
Actually, it's that exact trait that he is best known for.

Like when he told Guilliman to feth off when the Codex Astartes was released? Or when he rushed into Perturabo's trap?

Dorn should be know for his clear thinking like Horus should be known for his humility.

After all, the whole mess started when Dorn got pissed off about predicting Curze predict the future- correctly, I might add- and Dorn just HAD to do something stupid and short-sighted.

You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

Your examples seem to serve our argument more than your own as the exceptional times that the calm cool of Rogal Dorn faltered.

 Shidank wrote:
Your examples seem to serve our argument more than your own as the exceptional times that the calm cool of Rogal Dorn faltered.

Mhm. No ones infallible, least of all the Primarchs, but the vast majority of the time Dorn was as level headed as it gets. Everyone has a breaking point that pushes them over the edge however.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Your examples seem to serve our argument more than your own as the exceptional times that the calm cool of Rogal Dorn faltered.

Mhm. No ones infallible, least of all the Primarchs, but the vast majority of the time Dorn was as level headed as it gets. Everyone has a breaking point that pushes them over the edge however.

Exalted for truth, my brotha!

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really count anything after the Heresy like that, I'm pretty sure Dorns character was pretty drastically changed by the events of the heresy and what he found on the Vengeful Spirit. The Iron Cage after all was him being suicidal. Dorn is very level headed and calm under pressure. Why else would the Emperor choose him to fortify the home planet of the Imperium?

... and yet, he acted with the same lack of clear thinking when dealing with Curze...

Are there any examples you can give of Dorn being put in a situation where he could act rashly or be level-headed and he actually chose to be level-headed?

At any rate, in the best-case scenario for Dorn, he's still weak enough that while well-rested, Curze beat him unconscious- while crazy- before Dorn had a chance to so much as raise his hands in defense.

I expect, with that lack of fortitude or reaction time, Curze would tear him to shreds were they both armored and armed up.

Again, the Emperor got Dorn to fortify Terra. He'd hardly have done that if he wasn't calm under pressure would he? You can't really give three understandable examples of him losing his cool and say 'he never was cool!'

And yes, best case scenario for Dorn is his brother snapped and attacked him completey taking him by surprise... Not seeing the issue. Doesn't make him weak, he just wasn't expecting it. The element of surprise can make a huge difference. And just because Curze is crazy, he's still a bloody good fighter. I don't see how losing to him makes Dorn weak.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

Curze would have known he would kick the crap out of Dorn since before he met the Emperor. He just wouldnt know why or when. It was this that tormented him. Upon meeting Dorn he would know at some point they would get in a fight and he would kick the crap out of Dorn and Curze had no clue why and no clue when it would happen. Imagine it would be hard to make friends with peoeple you knew you were going to fight with.

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

Curze would have known he would kick the crap out of Dorn since before he met the Emperor. He just wouldnt know why or when. It was this that tormented him. Upon meeting Dorn he would know at some point they would get in a fight and he would kick the crap out of Dorn and Curze had no clue why and no clue when it would happen. Imagine it would be hard to make friends with peoeple you knew you were going to fight with.

I meant at that point in time he didn't realise. He only realised what he'd done when he was interrupted and Dorn was a bloody mess on the floor.

 Exergy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah. Dorn wasn't expecting his brother to lose his mind and Attack him in a blind rage. I mean, Curze didn't expect to attack him, he didn't even realise he had until after and Dorn was lying in a pool of blood.

Curze would have known he would kick the crap out of Dorn since before he met the Emperor. He just wouldnt know why or when. It was this that tormented him. Upon meeting Dorn he would know at some point they would get in a fight and he would kick the crap out of Dorn and Curze had no clue why and no clue when it would happen. Imagine it would be hard to make friends with peoeple you knew you were going to fight with.

Valid proposal. It would explain his revulsion at what he'd done.