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I thought Guilliman was off fighting hill tribes while Ultramar was being expanded. inheriting a empire does not give you a great accomplishment.

the ancient wrote:
I thought Guilliman was off fighting hill tribes while Ultramar was being expanded. inheriting a empire does not give you a great accomplishment.

Pretty sure unremembered empire states that it was Guilliman who expanded off world. Gulliman by defeating those "hill tribes" (whom had never been conquered before. Gulliman however not only beat em but won their respect while doing so) while his father attempted in enact reforms at home. Gulliman returned to find his father killed in a coup, and then set about restoring order, and then expanding into the stars. Belittiling what gulliman did would be like saying Augustus Ceaser didn't achomplish anything and he just inherited Julius ceaser's empire

Most of the Primarchs were great warlords and kings.

Guilliman was already an emperor in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Really no question on this one.

I have to agree that it's pretty clear that Guilliman was the greatest success.

Unlike a lot of the other Primarchs who dominated their worlds his Empire/rule didn't collapse when he left.

 ImAGeek wrote:

dusara217 wrote:Guilliman inherited a space-faring Empire. I'd say that Dorn accomplished the most, as he not only conquered his planet from a single tribe, but he then started building his own Empire from nothing. Whereas Guilliman just took an already-constructed and stable Empire and started expanding. He was just another Consul, IMO.

He rebuilt an old empire and started expanding it. So he basically did the same as Dorn but on a larger scale.

Except that Dorn started from scratch, while Guilliman was basically inheriting the boot of Italy right after a major slave revolt and started expanding.


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I'm amazed that the Lion got so few votes; he accomplished something great in a relatively short amount of time, and Caliban remained strong and thriving after he left.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No you can't. But you don't have any evidence to back it up, so really it's kinda pointless saying Alpharius has the greatest accomplishments pre reunification. I also wouldn't say having a pirate fleet and fighting your way to Horus' throne room is better than Guillimans empire anyway. I mean he is a Primarch, of course he'd be able to fight his way to Horus.

Yeah, but you know how Alpharius fanboys like to embellish.

I'm not sure where I read it but that the Emperor was going to choose Guilliman as the Warmaster but realized that Guilliman had far too much responsibility to take the burden of Warmaster.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Most of the Primarchs were great warlords and kings.

Guilliman was already an emperor in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Really no question on this one.

Wasn't Dorn also ruling as an emperor? He accomplished pretty much the same thing except he started with even less and happened to find the Phalanx as well.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I'm not sure where I read it but that the Emperor was going to choose Guilliman as the Warmaster but realized that Guilliman had far too much responsibility to take the burden of Warmaster.

So he chose Horus because Guilliman was too useful? I don't think so. Horus was the best and most worthy, simple as that.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
started with even less

 EngulfedObject wrote:
and happened to find the Phalanx as well

wait wat

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I'm not sure where I read it but that the Emperor was going to choose Guilliman as the Warmaster but realized that Guilliman had far too much responsibility to take the burden of Warmaster.

you're recalling from Know no fear. where the Ultramarines where basicly expressing the opion Gulliman had eneugh on his plate as it was, Horus can have the war master title.

the source is a tad biased.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Most of the Primarchs were great warlords and kings.

Guilliman was already an emperor in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Really no question on this one.

Wasn't Dorn also ruling as an emperor? He accomplished pretty much the same thing except he started with even less and happened to find the Phalanx as well.

How is being on a planet near the Phalanx an accomplishment? He didn't exactly go looking for it, it was just there.

 Manchu wrote:
wait wat

Well I realized I didn't know enough about the Primarchs to vote so I checked the wikis for info and apparently Dorn ruled a thriving star system just like Guilliman:

From the Lexicanum (the source given is the Horus Heresy Chapbook):

"Eventually Rogal Dorn became the leader not only of his caste but of the whole world and then the surrounding region of space, ruling the Inwit Cluster as Emperor of the House of Dorn. But as the history goes, 40 years after his grandfather's death, the Great Crusade reached the Ice Hives of Inwit. Dorn greeted the Emperor at the helm of his enormous starship, the Phalanx, the seventh Primarch to be found."

From the 40k wikia:

"It was as part of this burgeoning empire that Rogal Dorn grew to manhood, and then to rule its domains as emperor. Much of his early years remains unknown, or at least little talked about. What is known is that from the cold and darkness of Inwit the boy, named Rogal by his adoped kin, rose to lead the House of Dorn or the Ice Caste and then to the rule of the Inwit Cluster. "

"Forty standard years after his grandfather's death, the outlying Imperial starships of the Great Crusade finally reached the Ice Hives of Inwit. When the true Emperor was reunited with Rogal Dorn, He regained not only a lost son, but the strength of a star spanning society already forged into a tool of war. Dorn greeted the Emperor at the helm of the enormous starship constructed during the Dark Age of Technology called the Phalanx that he had discovered within Inwit's region of space."

 ImAGeek wrote:
How is being on a planet near the Phalanx an accomplishment? He didn't exactly go looking for it, it was just there.

I agree, finding the ship itself isn't much of an accomplished but that's in addition to becoming emperor and ruling the star system.

Inwit itself is also described much like a death world, though apparently the humans there overcame these obstacles without the help of a Primarch and built a stellar empire. Dorn didn't build that empire but he eventually became the ruler.

It's a toughy as we don't really know enough about the Primarchs early lives. I'm not sure if killing something is an accomplishment either unless it achieved some form of betterment for their people. Ferrus killing Asinoth was pretty boss, but was it an accomplishment. Also inheriting a Space Fort or an Empire isn't really an accomplishment. The deeds of doing it would be in my opinion. If Dorn just found the Phalanx, no. If he had to build and design space ships that created thousands of jobs for his subjects then yeah.

Going on that I think there are a few contenders. Fulgrim turned Chemos around. Angron freed the slaves and nearly over threw the slavers themselves, kinda. Mortarion made it so that the people he lived with could actually live their lives.

What are the determining criteria for something to be considered an accomplishment?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What are the determining criteria for something to be considered an accomplishment?

That varies according to the person considering the question and the fluff. For example, you listed Angron but his pre-reunification hijinks seem like a failure to me.

Hm, it seems to me that we're mainly considering the overall benefit to the Imperium rather than personal hardship. Otherwise Guilliman and Dorn wouldn't really be contenders.

These are also Primarchs we're discussing so none of the achievements are really that impressive, given what they were. It's a good thing the Emperor found them, otherwise their potential really would have been wasted, even with the whole turning traitor thing. Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

I've revised my opinion. The Lion had the greatest accomplishments. I mean, he got into the most disciplined and highly trained Knightly Order on his planet, rose to the rank of Grandmaster, purged his entire planet of a major DAEMON INFESTATION using maybe 50K ORDINARY HUMAN KNIGHTS in less than ten years. Plus, he survived his first few years in daemon-infested, poisonous-monster-hunted, death world forests. And keep in mind, he survived in the North Wilds - literally the most dangerous forest of a planet covered in insanely dangerous forests.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What are the determining criteria for something to be considered an accomplishment?

That varies according to the person considering the question and the fluff. For example, you listed Angron but his pre-reunification hijinks seem like a failure to me.

That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

When you think about it, that is pretty much the only lasting positive legacy of the primarchs anyhow.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

I prefer to see each poster's unique perspective on the issue. Besides, if I made guidelines, we'd just be arguing about those instead, kind of like how we are talking about whether there should be guidelines rather than the topic itself right now.

As much as I don't like the guy, I'd go with Fulgrim (really wish they wrote him so that all the perfection, glamour and excess didn't get to his head until after the Laer, maybe rewrite the fluff so that the war against the Laer happened earlier in the great crusade and then Fulgrim makes a slow but sure descent into the prick we all know him as). I think Fulgrim had the greatest achievement in not only saving a planet and it's people from death but turning it into someplace that would probably a fairly nice place to live.

Dorn and Guilliman had their own empires spanning multiple planets, but I feel that much of the groundwork was already there and all they had to do was more or less fit the pieces together to make it all work.

 Manchu wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

When you think about it, that is pretty much the only lasting positive legacy of the primarchs anyhow.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

I prefer to see each poster's unique perspective on the issue. Besides, if I made guidelines, we'd just be arguing about those instead, kind of like how we are talking about whether there should be guidelines rather than the topic itself right now.

Then Angron FTW

Probably Fulgrim or Curze if I am to be serious.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Otherwise we'd only have a few more prosperous systems and that would be it.

When you think about it, that is pretty much the only lasting positive legacy of the primarchs anyhow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
That's why i am asking, lay out some guidelines as the OP

I prefer to see each poster's unique perspective on the issue. Besides, if I made guidelines, we'd just be arguing about those instead, kind of like how we are talking about whether there should be guidelines rather than the topic itself right now.

Then Angron FTW

Probably Fulgrim or Curze if I am to be serious.

In terms of what they brought to the Imperium, Guilliman. In terms of their individual planet, and the lengths they personally went to, either the Lion, Fulgrim or Curze. Although I don't know that much about Fulgrims uprising. You could also count Corax in there, he freed a planet and it's moon from slavery.

Fulgrim is different in many ways ass he didn't actually have to fight a war. He did it by hard graft and economical means.

IA Emperors Children: Not only was he physically proficient, he quickly grew to understand the technology of the machines he worked with, and began to contemplate their improvement. By the fifteenth anniversary of his fall from the sky, Fulgrim had risen from the ranks of the workers, first becoming an engineer then one of the Executive itself. Learning of the slow deterioration in Callax and the other settlements of Chemos, Fulgrim set himself the task of saving his world.

One by one he convinced his fellow members of the Executive to fight against the entropy that was destroying Chemos. Under Fulgrim's leadership, teams of engineers travelled far from the factory-fortresses, reclaiming long-dead outposts in the planet's most inaccessible regions. The ancient mines were reopened and expanded, bringing more and more minerals into Callax and allowing the construction of more sophisticated machines. Recycling efficiency grew until, at last, Callax was producing more that it consumed. Seeing his people prosper, Fulgrim took pride in fostering he re-emergence of art and culture, reclaiming the spirit of humanity that had been sacrificed so long ago in the struggle or survival. As Callax grew, the other settlements began to ally themselves with Fulgrim. Fifty years after Fulgrim fell from the sky he rose to sole rulership of Chemos.

Oh right, that's pretty unique I think. And doing it without any fighting is an achievement in itself. I wish Fulgrim had been written better because I kind of hate him but I like the idea of him.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh right, that's pretty unique I think. And doing it without any fighting is an achievement in itself. I wish Fulgrim had been written better because I kind of hate him but I like the idea of him.

There's a fair few that feel the same way

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh right, that's pretty unique I think. And doing it without any fighting is an achievement in itself. I wish Fulgrim had been written better because I kind of hate him but I like the idea of him.

There's a fair few that feel the same way

I need Betrayal, that might change my view on the Emperors Children. Saving for Tempest atm though.

Why hate Fulgrim?

I don't think he gets enough credit at all. His IA background shows he was a masterful administrator, which is pretty key to running a giant army. The Emperor surely acknowledged that his gifts were exceptional even among the primarchs, given his Legion's namesake and the then-unique right to wear the aquila.

Just because of how he was written in Fulgrim. It seems like it's meant to be quite a tragic story but he starts off as an arse anyway so his fall is robbed of any emotional value. It's just tainted my view on them.

Just keep in mind that he resurrected the economy and culture of an entire planet using only intelligence and charisma.

Why did he do it? To help the suffering people of Chemos or to inflate his own ego? Probably neither. I'd argue he did it because it his unique nature to improve, hone, and perfect.

Angron, everyone else had a pre made empire to run, he had slaves and gladiators and kicked arse, if you gave me macragge and its out lying world and entire armies, being raised by the king etc. im sure id have done a good job too, Guilliman didn't achieve much at all, it was all pre existing and he built upon it after he was found

Gulliman probably ended with the most, but he had a head start in the race
I would say the lion came the farthest from his starting point (having pretty much nothing beyond certaion death from his early childhood)
But ultimately my vote goes to vulkan, sure he didn't have an empire, but he managed to get a primative world to fight off dark eldar raiders. These are the guys with the 'blackhole jack-in-the-box' level of technology. Not exactly even grounds for him to win on