This thread series has just been me establishing the Dakka community's favorites regarding First Founding Legions/Chapters. First Loyalist, then Traitor, now in general. Essentially, choose your favorite Crusade-era Legion and explain why
Mine is Blood Angels, though my preference for Blood Angels is slipping :( Hopefully I can find a new one on this thread.
Salamanders, for me. I like the Iron Hands and the Raven Guard as well, those three legions and Primarchs are sort of like my own personal ensemble darkhorse. But the Sallies will always win my heart for their unwavering devotion to the filthy mass of humanity over all other considerations. They were also my first army on the tabletop back in high school, and I still play in their style even though I don't use their heraldry or Chapter Tactics anymore.
It's a hard choice to make because I really like all of the chapters. I used to dislike the Ultramarines for hogging all the "screentime" but then I learned to appreciate them for what they were - by the book, no mistakes, highly professional soldiers with a Greco-Roman flavor. I can't think of a single legion that is "boring," in all honesty.
The closest to it is the White Scars, and honestly, that's only because I've yet to read the bulk of their fluff. I'm sure I'll have a deeper appreciation for them once I do.
Crusade-era I also like the Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and Luna Wolves (though I prefer the Sons of Horus colour scheme). I'd like the Iron Warriors more if I didn't find their Primarch so annoying.
Actually, I like them all but it seems like I have a preference for traitor legions pre-Heresy era. My least favorite are probably White Scars and Salamanders.
I have to say Salamanders. But reading more into 30k I really like the Word Bearers. I feel they were doing something kind of innocent(maybe not that innocent) and then were punished for it, and it makes you pity them
Great White wrote: I have to say Salamanders. But reading more into 30k I really like the Word Bearers. I feel they were doing something kind of innocent(maybe not that innocent) and then were punished for it, and it makes you pity them
That's really interesting, because after reading HH novels involving the WB I disliked them even more. All the things they witnessed and carried out and very few thought, hang on a second this is pretty ****ed up. I did like the portrayal of Arghel Tal in First Heretic though, however even he had his doubts and seemed to follow Lorgar out of blind faith.
Back to the topic it would probably be either Raven Guard, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, but the decision is extremely hard!
Great White wrote: I have to say Salamanders. But reading more into 30k I really like the Word Bearers. I feel they were doing something kind of innocent(maybe not that innocent) and then were punished for it, and it makes you pity them
That's really interesting, because after reading HH novels involving the WB I disliked them even more. All the things they witnessed and carried out and very few thought, hang on a second this is pretty ****ed up. I did like the portrayal of Arghel Tal in First Heretic though, however even he had his doubts and seemed to follow Lorgar out of blind faith.
Back to the topic it would probably be either Raven Guard, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, but the decision is extremely hard!
Argal Tal is my favourite character I think. I really like the Word Bearers actually. They basically got punished for worshipping a god because 'there are no gods' and then found out that they had been lied too and that gods do exist. But it turns out the gods are evil. But it's still better to worship evil gods, and be on the winning side (especially as they seem genetically predisposed to zealotry) than worship no gods. That's why I like Argal Tal because he hates himself for the truth they uncovered but at the end of the day, it is the truth. He wishes they'd never discovered Chaos, but they did, and it's their duty to spread the truth. I can see why people don't like them and I don't normally go for the whole religious thing, but I like them because they basically found themselves justified, but in the most twisted way, and it's quite a nice moral dilemma they have briefly before Lorgar throws himself straight into Chaos.
Great White wrote: I have to say Salamanders. But reading more into 30k I really like the Word Bearers. I feel they were doing something kind of innocent(maybe not that innocent) and then were punished for it, and it makes you pity them
That's really interesting, because after reading HH novels involving the WB I disliked them even more. All the things they witnessed and carried out and very few thought, hang on a second this is pretty ****ed up. I did like the portrayal of Arghel Tal in First Heretic though, however even he had his doubts and seemed to follow Lorgar out of blind faith.
Back to the topic it would probably be either Raven Guard, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, but the decision is extremely hard!
Argal Tal is my favourite character I think. I really like the Word Bearers actually. They basically got punished for worshipping a god because 'there are no gods' and then found out that they had been lied too and that gods do exist. But it turns out the gods are evil. But it's still better to worship evil gods, and be on the winning side (especially as they seem genetically predisposed to zealotry) than worship no gods. That's why I like Argal Tal because he hates himself for the truth they uncovered but at the end of the day, it is the truth. He wishes they'd never discovered Chaos, but they did, and it's their duty to spread the truth. I can see why people don't like them and I don't normally go for the whole religious thing, but I like them because they basically found themselves justified, but in the most twisted way, and it's quite a nice moral dilemma they have briefly before Lorgar throws himself straight into Chaos.
That's a cool way of understanding it, I never thought about it like that! Always good to hear other interpretations. I do feel that Erebus and Kor Phaeron tricked/manipulated Lorgar, because even at the drop site massacre Lorgar still wonders what the hell he is doing as the carnage unfolds. Their fall is definitely interesting, I also am interested in the Death Guard/Mortartion, they seem to be increasingly unwilling traitors and realise what they are have got themselves into when it's far too late. One of my favourite moments of the series is in Scars when
Spoiler:
jaghatai Khan realises that Mortartion is looking for normal allies to have as all the other traitors are completely nuts and tells him that he has to eat the bitter fruit as a consequence of betraying the imperium.
Great White wrote: I have to say Salamanders. But reading more into 30k I really like the Word Bearers. I feel they were doing something kind of innocent(maybe not that innocent) and then were punished for it, and it makes you pity them
That's really interesting, because after reading HH novels involving the WB I disliked them even more. All the things they witnessed and carried out and very few thought, hang on a second this is pretty ****ed up. I did like the portrayal of Arghel Tal in First Heretic though, however even he had his doubts and seemed to follow Lorgar out of blind faith.
Back to the topic it would probably be either Raven Guard, Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, but the decision is extremely hard!
Argal Tal is my favourite character I think. I really like the Word Bearers actually. They basically got punished for worshipping a god because 'there are no gods' and then found out that they had been lied too and that gods do exist. But it turns out the gods are evil. But it's still better to worship evil gods, and be on the winning side (especially as they seem genetically predisposed to zealotry) than worship no gods. That's why I like Argal Tal because he hates himself for the truth they uncovered but at the end of the day, it is the truth. He wishes they'd never discovered Chaos, but they did, and it's their duty to spread the truth. I can see why people don't like them and I don't normally go for the whole religious thing, but I like them because they basically found themselves justified, but in the most twisted way, and it's quite a nice moral dilemma they have briefly before Lorgar throws himself straight into Chaos.
I mean that's what I like. They were one of the few legions who had an actual reason to turn to chaos. Lorgar was in my opinion the most faithful son to the emperor, but his puss poor people skills and lackluster dad skills turned his son against him.
I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.
GKTiberius wrote: I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.
Can you elaborate? I know the SW went to attack the 1k Sons, but thats all I know.
Second most successful legion, even though their primarch was the 11th one found, the first legion, the Lion is a badass that grew up as a kid killing daemons in the wild and never turned traitor despite his proximity to growing up next to the eye, plus he laid the edgelord Kurze out in 1v1, and didn't have massive daddy issues.
GKTiberius wrote: I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.
Can you elaborate? I know the SW went to attack the 1k Sons, but thats all I know.
Look up the Edict of Nikaea, as well as a synopsis of a Thousand sons
GKTiberius wrote: I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.
Can you elaborate? I know the SW went to attack the 1k Sons, but thats all I know.
Look up the Edict of Nikaea, as well as a synopsis of a Thousand sons
That helps. No, I know about the edict of Nikaea, butbhow did the Emperor screw over Magnus?
GKTiberius wrote: I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.
Can you elaborate? I know the SW went to attack the 1k Sons, but thats all I know.
Look up the Edict of Nikaea, as well as a synopsis of a Thousand sons
That helps. No, I know about the edict of Nikaea, butbhow did the Emperor screw over Magnus?
I don't think he did really. People seem to think he did but I don't really see it. Yeah he sent the wolves after them after he wrecked the webway, but he only sent them to censure them. Horus twisted that into a kill order.
GKTiberius wrote: I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.
Can you elaborate? I know the SW went to attack the 1k Sons, but thats all I know.
Look up the Edict of Nikaea, as well as a synopsis of a Thousand sons
That helps. No, I know about the edict of Nikaea, butbhow did the Emperor screw over Magnus?
I don't think he did really. People seem to think he did but I don't really see it. Yeah he sent the wolves after them after he wrecked the webway, but he only sent them to censure them. Horus twisted that into a kill order.
He practically outlawed their Legion's method of warfare and main focus, Even though they've made a better case than " I HATE PSYKERS BECAUSE MY DAD WAS A PSYKER AND HE HIT ME"- Mortarion or "I don't trust psykers who do not have -Wolf in their names" -Leman Russ.
I picked the Iron Warriors, Althought the 1kSons and the World Eaters are pretty close behind imo.
I say he screwed him over, not because the wolves destroyed peospero, although that is a symptom of it. I think the true crime here is that the emperor created Maguns to be The ultimate psyker, knowing the dangers of the warp and delving into sorcery. He based an entire legion's geneseed on this strain and when it became unstable he basically shrugged and said "Oh well, I hope we can fix this before we have to destroy the legion". When they found Magnus, he dropped off the legion on Prospero and said "good luck with this one son, i haven't really had time to figure out why your legion has 'the change' but i'm sure you will figure it out. Magnus does, making a pact with tzeench in the process, which basically damns him. After that, the emperor holds the council of Nikea and says "Sorry Magnus, i know you were created for the singular purpose of mastering psychic sorcery, but we are not going to do that any more and your legion cant use their one awesome power any more" All the while still intending Magnus to sit the golden throne once everything was said and done. He created Magnus to use as a battery, and at best neglected him and at worst predetermined him to damnation and failure through the emperor's indifference and neglect.
I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...
... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.
Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.
Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.
Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.
Manchu wrote: Dunno why, but I had you pegged as a 1ksons fan Ashiraya.
They are very cool, but I enjoy the weird benevolence-humility thing the Salamanders have going on, and the Night Lords play in my favourite tropes (psychological warfare, stealth) plus gigantic armoured supersoldiers sneaking around is an awesome idea in itself.
I don't have any of the Legions myself (or SM of any kind for that matter) but I've always liked the idea of a few of the legions.
Always liked the idea of the Salamanders, genetically modified superhumans who actually realize that they exist to protect the people and not just the Imperium.
Imperial Fists simply because I love defending things and they're the iconic defenders, Siege of Terra and whatnot.
Thousand Sons because they were betrayed and were in fact loyalist. I also agree with their creed, "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."
Manchu wrote: I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...
... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.
Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.
Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.
Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.
I don't think Magnus had many options at that point. he was kept in the dark, and so he couldn't make an informed decision. As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday. Also, his entire legion had built themselves around the mastery of psychic powers, so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated.
Full disclosure on my part, I think the emperor was absolutely terrible as a leader and did a really piss poor job of managing the imperium after the unification of Terra. He is the true architect of the Heresy because if he hadn't have had so much pride, hadn't played favorites and just been a competent example for his sons this wouldn't have happened. The entire Imperial Truth situation was FUBAR. His failure to Magnus and the Thousand sons stands chief among his crimes though IMO. Magnus did the best with what he could.
Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.
Manchu wrote: I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...
... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.
Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.
Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.
Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.
I don't think Magnus had many options at that point. he was kept in the dark, and so he couldn't make an informed decision. As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday. Also, his entire legion had built themselves around the mastery of psychic powers, so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated.
Full disclosure on my part, I think the emperor was absolutely terrible as a leader and did a really piss poor job of managing the imperium after the unification of Terra. He is the true architect of the Heresy because if he hadn't have had so much pride, hadn't played favorites and just been a competent example for his sons this wouldn't have happened. The entire Imperial Truth situation was FUBAR. His failure to Magnus and the Thousand sons stands chief among his crimes though IMO. Magnus did the best with what he could.
Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.
The Emperor was basically the savior of mankind, akin to a god. No one said he was supposed to flawless. Rather, I think he's a lot like Zeus, full of flaws. I think the Emperor had a plan but I don't think he masterminded the HH. Rather, I think he put too much faith in to his sons following him and obeying his orders and never suspected one would turn on him.
Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.
Actually, Magnus was tutored in the way of the warp by the Emperor before he was reunited with the Emperor, at least according to Magnus himself, in "A Thousand Sons".
Me? No, I never lost contact with my fahter. We spoke many times before he ever set foot on Prospero. That is a bond that none of my brothers can claim. (A Thousand Sons. "SIXTEEN")
It wasn't until some time after the reunion of the Emperor and Magnus that the Primarch took command of his legion. During the interim Magnus had spent his time in the great libraries on Terra, and saw Fulgrim and Ferrus competing their crafting skills against each other, etc.. So it'd seem that there is a long time between the recovery of Magnus and Magnus taking control of the XV Legion.
On the other hand, the Emperor had warned Magnus of the dangers of the Warp long before the events in Nikea; regardless of the warning Magnus had always dreamt of mastering the warp. As much as the Emperor is a piss-poor father and a very inconsiderate ruler, Magnus was a rebellious and obstinate son. It is really tragic consider what potential he had.
Anyways Vulkan is for me, he's just nice. It's nice to have a nice dude in a time of superhuman dicking each other.
GKTiberius wrote: As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday.
This is sort of what I mean. It would take monumental arrogance to assume the Emperor had no good reason for his actions.
GKTiberius wrote: so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated
Sounds like 1ksons version of First World Problems. Attention special snowflakes of XV Legion: put down the book, pick up the bolter.
GKTiberius wrote: The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct?
I don't know but I do know the Emperor and Magnus were in contact through the Warp long before they met face-to-face on Prospero.
jreilly89 wrote: Rather, I think he put too much faith in to his sons following him and obeying his orders and never suspected one would turn on him.
There are pretty much two possibilities: either (a) the Emperor is a total moron with no insight whatsoever into the human psyche or (b) he set up at least some of his sons to fail.
GKTiberius wrote: As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday.
This is sort of what I mean. It would take monumental arrogance to assume the Emperor had no good reason for his actions.
GKTiberius wrote: so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated
Sounds like 1ksons version of First World Problems. Attention special snowflakes of XV Legion: put down the book, pick up the bolter.
GKTiberius wrote: The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct?
I don't know but I do know the Emperor and Magnus were in contact through the Warp long before they met face-to-face on Prospero.
jreilly89 wrote: Rather, I think he put too much faith in to his sons following him and obeying his orders and never suspected one would turn on him.
There are pretty much two possibilities: either (a) the Emperor is a total moron with no insight whatsoever into the human psyche or (b) he set up at least some of his sons to fail.
Not really. He could have easily been blinded by pride or love, its a classic thing, especially in the father/son or master/student stories.
The Emperor was blinded by love? by pride? by SCIENCE?!
No, it doesn't really make sense that the Emperor, one of the greatest if not the greatest psyker ever, wouldn't notice the massive personality disorders overtly demonstrated by the primarchs.
I still maintain that the Emperor was so far removed from humanity at this point that things like emotion just didn't register with him. And he made some questionable fathering choices. I don't see him setting up his sons to fall, I don't see the point, or what he would achieve from that.
I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.
Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.
Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.
Manchu wrote: I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.
Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.
Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.
Oh okay I see, so he failed in his plan then? Because he's in the golden throne and makind still uses the warp. I thought you meant he got the outcome he wanted from his plan, my bad. I can see that. I don't know if I want that to be the case, but I can see it.
And I was mostly being flippant with the fatherly choices, I agree that he wasn't really a father, and the Primarchs weren't really sons. Although he didn't choose the time and place he would meet them. A lot of them were found by chance during the Great Crusade.
Manchu wrote: I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.
Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.
Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.
But that doesn't hold up. Destroying half the IoM surely did not help mankind's rule of the galaxy, nor did him being interred on a golden throne. He's also being worshiped as a god, which is another thing he expressly didn't want (Wordbearers).
Be it Chaos, his own ambition, love of his "genetic creations", what have you, I think something blinded him to his own folly of not considering he could be betrayed.
BrianDavion wrote: I also find it doubtful the chaos gods could be easily distracted by a, to them, petty and minor thing like a war
And yet they were pretty heavily invested in the Heresy.
ImAGeek wrote: His endgame was to distract the Chaos gods to bide himself time to sort out Humanities reliance on the Warp (from what I gather).
Correct, he was working on the human version of the webway, a.k.a., the original purpose of the Golden Throne. That's my theory at least.
ImAGeek wrote: The Chaos gods were pretty heavily invested in the heresy.
LOL! My thoughts exactly in a literal sense.
But in his all seeing ness, wouldn't he see that he would at least stand the chance of being wounded, if not out right killed? It seems like a pretty long bomb plan, and exceptionally risky. Besides, say the HH had happened as planned, he works out the human webway, what then? At best, Horus is dead and so is Sanguinius, and the Emperor is wounded to some degree.
Well, he has certainly profited it from it. While the Emperor initially was against being recognized as a god, he is a warp entity now, and probably will be reborn fully as a true warp god when the throne fails.
Manchu, I don't understand your theory. I don't see how a civil war would benefit the Emperor's plan to rid humanity of its reliance on the Warp. If anything, the HH caused his plan to fail because Magnus sent his psychic warning. It seems more like the Heresy was an unintended result of his plan, not a part of it (because it fueled the Primarchs' suspicions on what the Emperor was up to).
And wasn't the point of the Webway project to hold the Imperium together? Doesn't make sense to rip up the Imperium you just spent 200 years building as a distraction when one of the first things that happen is the Golden Throne getting messed up.
j31c3n wrote: Poor, poor Luna Wolves. Nobody likes them.
I like them! I like them even more as the Sons of Horus! But I like the Dark Angels more
Manchu wrote: I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...
... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.
Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.
Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.
Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.
I don't think Magnus had many options at that point. he was kept in the dark, and so he couldn't make an informed decision. As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday. Also, his entire legion had built themselves around the mastery of psychic powers, so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated.
Full disclosure on my part, I think the emperor was absolutely terrible as a leader and did a really piss poor job of managing the imperium after the unification of Terra. He is the true architect of the Heresy because if he hadn't have had so much pride, hadn't played favorites and just been a competent example for his sons this wouldn't have happened. The entire Imperial Truth situation was FUBAR. His failure to Magnus and the Thousand sons stands chief among his crimes though IMO. Magnus did the best with what he could.
Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.
Personally, I HATE the way that the Emperor was portrayed in the Horus Heresy series. He went from an amazing, genius ultra-psyker to an cockmongering father that acts like a friggin late-era Roman Emperor (crappy leader, selfish, etc.)
Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.
Actually, Magnus was tutored in the way of the warp by the Emperor before he was reunited with the Emperor, at least according to Magnus himself, in "A Thousand Sons".
Me? No, I never lost contact with my fahter. We spoke many times before he ever set foot on Prospero. That is a bond that none of my brothers can claim. (A Thousand Sons. "SIXTEEN")
It wasn't until some time after the reunion of the Emperor and Magnus that the Primarch took command of his legion. During the interim Magnus had spent his time in the great libraries on Terra, and saw Fulgrim and Ferrus competing their crafting skills against each other, etc.. So it'd seem that there is a long time between the recovery of Magnus and Magnus taking control of the XV Legion.
On the other hand, the Emperor had warned Magnus of the dangers of the Warp long before the events in Nikea; regardless of the warning Magnus had always dreamt of mastering the warp. As much as the Emperor is a piss-poor father and a very inconsiderate ruler, Magnus was a rebellious and obstinate son. It is really tragic consider what potential he had.
Anyways Vulkan is for me, he's just nice. It's nice to have a nice dude in a time of superhuman dicking each other.
It's funny, because Sanguinius was nice in pretty much the same way. He wouldn't even let a few hundred humans die in exchange for an easy victory (see: the Nephilim)
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ImAGeek wrote: I still maintain that the Emperor was so far removed from humanity at this point that things like emotion just didn't register with him. And he made some questionable fathering choices. I don't see him setting up his sons to fall, I don't see the point, or what he would achieve from that.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Emperor engineered the Horus Heresy so that he would become the God of Order and be able to effectively combat the Ruinous Powers. Unfortunately, no plan lasts once gak hits the fan, and quite a few things went wrong. Now, instead of becoming an insanely powerful God, he is bound to his stupid corpse; feeding off of the souls of millions of Psykers everyday.
Manchu wrote: I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.
Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.
Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.
Oh okay I see, so he failed in his plan then? Because he's in the golden throne and makind still uses the warp. I thought you meant he got the outcome he wanted from his plan, my bad. I can see that. I don't know if I want that to be the case, but I can see it.
And I was mostly being flippant with the fatherly choices, I agree that he wasn't really a father, and the Primarchs weren't really sons. Although he didn't choose the time and place he would meet them. A lot of them were found by chance during the Great Crusade.
I know that at least the Lion, Horus, and Sanguinius all considered the Emperor to be their father and worshipped him in the same manner that a son worships his father.
Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)
Da Ork Killa wrote: Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)
Yeah they are pretty awesome. But the whole Curze tortured Vulkan and was killed by that lighting bolt thing was kinda some bs writing
EngulfedObject wrote: Manchu, I don't understand your theory. I don't see how a civil war would benefit the Emperor's plan to rid humanity of its reliance on the Warp. If anything, the HH caused his plan to fail because Magnus sent his psychic warning. It seems more like the Heresy was an unintended result of his plan, not a part of it (because it fueled the Primarchs' suspicions on what the Emperor was up to).
And wasn't the point of the Webway project to hold the Imperium together? Doesn't make sense to rip up the Imperium you just spent 200 years building as a distraction when one of the first things that happen is the Golden Throne getting messed up.
Again, it was a risky bet that he lost. High stakes and long odds. Had things worked out, the HH would have been an inconsequential blip.
EngulfedObject wrote: Manchu, I don't understand your theory. I don't see how a civil war would benefit the Emperor's plan to rid humanity of its reliance on the Warp. If anything, the HH caused his plan to fail because Magnus sent his psychic warning. It seems more like the Heresy was an unintended result of his plan, not a part of it (because it fueled the Primarchs' suspicions on what the Emperor was up to).
And wasn't the point of the Webway project to hold the Imperium together? Doesn't make sense to rip up the Imperium you just spent 200 years building as a distraction when one of the first things that happen is the Golden Throne getting messed up.
Again, it was a risky bet that he lost. High stakes and long odds. Had things worked out, the HH would have been an inconsequential blip.
Yea but I don't get why he would need a distraction in the first place. He made such a big deal out of making Horus Warmaster and returning to Terra that all attention was focused on him. What's the point of the Heresy if everyone's already gossiping about him working on some super secret project on Terra?
The Emperor knew the Ruinous Powers would oppose him. Knowing a conflict was inevitable, he tried to pick the battlefield. Creating the primarchs almost certainly entailed a deal with the Ruinous Powers, hence them being scattered throughout the galaxy. After he gathered them altogether and gave them all armies, the Emperor went back to Terra to work on the Golden Throne. At this point, he needed time and space. An evenly matched civil war among the primarchs could buy him both. Of course, because he was fighting the Chaos Gods, even he could not predict everything that would happen. His plan came close to working but ultimately unraveled and we have the grimdark rather than the noblebright.
Manchu wrote: The Emperor knew the Ruinous Powers would oppose him. Knowing a conflict was inevitable, he tried to pick the battlefield. Creating the primarchs almost certainly entailed a deal with the Ruinous Powers, hence them being scattered throughout the galaxy. After he gathered them altogether and gave them all armies, the Emperor went back to Terra to work on the Golden Throne. At this point, he needed time and space. An evenly matched civil war among the primarchs could buy him both. Of course, because he was fighting the Chaos Gods, even he could not predict everything that would happen. His plan came close to working but ultimately unraveled and we have the grimdark rather than the noblebright.
Well it's still a terrible plan considering the Golden Throne got damaged beyond repair even before the Heresy officially began and he couldn't fix it during the next seven years.
Wouldn't the plan have worked better if his Primarchs had stayed loyal for just a bit longer? He could have trained the Primarchs and sent them to fight Chaos instead of neglecting them on purpose if he really needed to distract them that badly.
Manchu wrote: The Emperor knew the Ruinous Powers would oppose him. Knowing a conflict was inevitable, he tried to pick the battlefield. Creating the primarchs almost certainly entailed a deal with the Ruinous Powers, hence them being scattered throughout the galaxy. After he gathered them altogether and gave them all armies, the Emperor went back to Terra to work on the Golden Throne. At this point, he needed time and space. An evenly matched civil war among the primarchs could buy him both. Of course, because he was fighting the Chaos Gods, even he could not predict everything that would happen. His plan came close to working but ultimately unraveled and we have the grimdark rather than the noblebright.
Well it's still a terrible plan considering the Golden Throne got damaged beyond repair even before the Heresy officially began and he couldn't fix it during the next seven years.
Wouldn't the plan have worked better if his Primarchs had stayed loyal for just a bit longer? He could have trained the Primarchs and sent them to fight Chaos instead of neglecting them on purpose if he really needed to distract them that badly.
If it was his plan, he probably didn't expect Magnus to disobey his edict. I dunno really because the alternative to Manchu's theory is basically that the Emperor was an idiot haha. He didn't handle some of the Primarchs well at all. He definitely made mistakes, pretty big ones.
ImAGeek wrote: If it was his plan, he probably didn't expect Magnus to disobey his edict. I dunno really because the alternative to Manchu's theory is basically that the Emperor was an idiot haha. He didn't handle some of the Primarchs well at all. He definitely made mistakes, pretty big ones.
I dunno, if this was his plan then it somehow seems even more idiotic and less believable than simple neglect.
I mean he was a being of such awesome power, running an empire on a galactic scale. Seems easy enough to neglect baby-sitting the Primarchs and fixing their daddy issues when they're operating in theaters across the galaxy over the span of two centuries.
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with Manchu's theory, but it is interesting, and theres nothing huge that contradicts it. It's cool that there's room for different theories at least.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with Manchu's theory, but it is interesting, and theres nothing huge that contradicts it. It's cool that there's room for different theories at least.
Sure, I agree its interesting and at least worth entertaining but I just don't find it terribly convincing. I think it's just us fans trying to somehow make sense of how parental neglect could have caused a galactic civil war.
Probably the most important point I can make is that the Emperor knew with certainty that the Ruinous Powers would confront him. He therefore also knew with certainty that the coming conflict would necessarily be a civil war. This is because, unlike for example orks, Chaos is not at external threat. The threat posed by Chaos is from within. When you know you have to fight and you have a general idea of what kind of fight it will be, the sensible thing to do is trying to fight on your own terms. I believe that is why he created the Primarchs.
Under my theory, the Emperor's plan failed. But you shouldn't for that reason assume it was a terrible plan. You need to keep in mind that Horus was defeated at Terra. And how much more soundly would he have been defeated if Leman Russ and Roboute Guilliman had been present? But that is yet another mistake fans make: they totally take for granted the absolute genius Horus exhibited by keeping the SW and UM away from Terra when he struck. Even so, he was defeated. But it cost the Emperor a mortal wound and given Magnus had disastrously breached the palace wards, the only thing for it was the Emperor's enthronement.
It was a damn close thing and ultimately tragic for mankind. The Emperor took a huge gamble but let's keep in mind that he had to do it. Chaos would have come for him and all humanity sooner or later. The Emperor stood up to Chaos and, all things considered, very nearly won.
Hmm but just a tiny bit later and Humanity wouldn't need to use the Warp for space travel. Still seems like a huge risk to take when he wasn't finished building his empire yet. And he didn't want to believe the warnings of the Heresy at first. If this was his plan the entire time, then how could something like the Dropsite Massacre have happened? The legions he sent were all "problem" legions. I mean, he sent the Night Lords of all people to fight the Heresy. And the Word Bearers, whom he publicly shamed.
But fair enough, he couldn't foresee all the issues with Chaos and all that. But still, terrible choice of legions to send for his master plan.
You seem to be missing my point -- I'm saying the Emperor wanted the SM legions to duke it out. That was the only way he would have the time to finish the human webway.
EngulfedObject wrote: Hmm but just a tiny bit later and Humanity wouldn't need to use the Warp for space travel. Still seems like a huge risk to take when he wasn't finished building his empire yet. And he didn't want to believe the warnings of the Heresy at first. If this was his plan the entire time, then how could something like the Dropsite Massacre have happened? The legions he sent were all "problem" legions. I mean, he sent the Night Lords of all people to fight the Heresy. And the Word Bearers, whom he publicly shamed.
But fair enough, he couldn't foresee all the issues with Chaos and all that. But still, terrible choice of legions to send for his master plan.
In this light, the Emperor of Mankind looks a bit like a dumbass.
Manchu wrote: That's what I keep saying Shidank: either (a) the Emperor is a fool or (b) the Emperor foresaw and planned for some version of the HH.
But to me neither version makes the Emperor look any smarter. Option a) is he failed to foresee anything of the kind so he's a blind fool and option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion.
If anything option b makes him look like an even bigger fool because he knew what was coming and yet messed up it up spectacularly. He basically couldn't have done anything to be worse prepared for what happened.
The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.
Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.
It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.
EngulfedObject wrote: option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion
Wow, you are really not getting this. I am saying the Emperor knew they were disloyal, maybe even engineered their disloyalty, and intentionally sent them for the very purposes of creating a long, drawn-out civil war away from Terra.
I really like the Luna Wolves, but Night Lords will always be my #1! I don't really know much about most of the loyalist legions but I like Raven Guard. I really need to read more of HH. I have never been a fan of Death Guard, but nurgle hate has partial blame on that one.
In the old Bill King story the Emperor reflects at the Siege of Terra
He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?
Manchu wrote: That's what I keep saying Shidank: either (a) the Emperor is a fool or (b) the Emperor foresaw and planned for some version of the HH.
But to me neither version makes the Emperor look any smarter. Option a) is he failed to foresee anything of the kind so he's a blind fool and option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion.
If anything option b makes him look like an even bigger fool because he knew what was coming and yet messed up it up spectacularly. He basically couldn't have done anything to be worse prepared for what happened.
Exalted for clarity.
If there seemed to be any gain at all in ten thousand years of Grimdark, I would say the Emperor(or perhaps, Emprah in this instance) was one cunning god-man. Since there seems to be no justification for this galactic failure, we simply have to see him as a being just as fallible as his sons.
The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.
Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.
It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.
EngulfedObject wrote: option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion
Wow, you are really not getting this. I am saying the Emperor knew they were disloyal, maybe even engineered their disloyalty, and intentionally sent them for the very purposes of creating a long, drawn-out civil war away from Terra.
I can't get behind the idea of an AL plotline where the Emperor engineered the HH. It doesn't serve any purpose but to roll back on every advance made in the Great Crusade. If he wanted a mountain of failure, why not just have the Thunder Warriors go into space and die of spontaneous combustion instead of sending out these ageless Space Marines?
Pilau Rice wrote: In the old Bill King story the Emperor reflects at the Siege of Terra
He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?
Fascinating stuff! The notion that there is a convergence point beyond which the Emperor cannot see lines up exactly with what we know about the limitations on Tzeentch. In effect, neither side could know the outcome of the HH. But both sides had a desperate interest in the outcome. Neither won, but of course Chaos didn't require victory -- only that the Emperor also not win.
Shidank wrote: It doesn't serve any purpose but to roll back on every advance made in the Great Crusade.
Manchu wrote: You seem to be missing my point -- I'm saying the Emperor wanted the SM legions to duke it out. That was the only way he would have the time to finish the human webway.
Pilau Rice wrote: In the old Bill King story the Emperor reflects at the Siege of Terra
He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?
Fascinating stuff! The notion that there is a convergence point beyond which the Emperor cannot see lines up exactly with what we know about the limitations on Tzeentch. In effect, neither side could know the outcome of the HH. But both sides had a desperate interest in the outcome. Neither won, but of course Chaos didn't require victory -- only that the Emperor also not win.
Shidank wrote: It doesn't serve any purpose but to roll back on every advance made in the Great Crusade.
Manchu wrote: You seem to be missing my point -- I'm saying the Emperor wanted the SM legions to duke it out. That was the only way he would have the time to finish the human webway.
I take it you intended the quote to be your reply? It wasn't, so I'll expound.
The webway project did not require a space marine battle. The two are unrelated. The timing of the heresy was not an accident, it was specifically to STOP the webway. Why would the Emperor, a god-like genius of a being, not realize this and contribute to the growing heresy?
Pilau Rice wrote: Maybe and why he sent Russ to get Magnus, because he needed him for the Astronomicon/Golden Throne.
I think that is absolutely correct. The Emperor needed Magnus on his side, Russ was predisposed to think the Emperor wanted Magnus punished, and Horus brilliantly intercepted Russ and convinced him that XV Legion should be wiped out knowing that Magnus would believe this when he learned the Emperor sent Russ, of all primarchs, to Prospero. Even so, at the precipice of disaster, Russ asked Magnus to come out with his hands up. Another convergence point ...
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Shidank wrote: The webway project did not require a space marine battle. The two are unrelated.
As explained above -- the battle was coming no matter what. The Emperor wanted to be in charge of when and where it happened and, as much as possible, what the consequences would be. He needed it to be (a) far away from Terra and (b) to stay away from Terra as long as possible.
The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.
Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.
It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.
He stepped in for Angron and Mortarion because they were about to die, not because he wanted to intentionally traumatize them. I just don't see any proof of that. And Curze had his crazy visions the moment he saw the Emperor. The Emperor didn't do anything particularly interesting other than making a grand entrance and literally blinding the natives with his sparkly magnificence.
He withheld knowledge of Chaos from Magnus to shield and protect him, not to make him resent him. Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch behind the Emperor's back. The whole Council of Nikeaa thing was to prevent more tampering with the Warp.
He humiliated Lorgar because what the Word Bearers were doing went against everything the Imperial Truth stood for. The problem was the way he handled it. He probably just wanted to discipline Lorgar and hoped they would stop with their foolishness. I think the Index Astartes says as much. The Emperor couldn't have foreseen Lorgar would run off to the Chaos Gods because he needed to worship something that badly.
I really do think it's just neglect and the Emperor focusing on the bigger picture, not bothering to take the time with issues he considered to be minor. It's also just arrogance.
EngulfedObject wrote: option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion
Manchu wrote: Wow, you are really not getting this. I am saying the Emperor knew they were disloyal, maybe even engineered their disloyalty, and intentionally sent them for the very purposes of creating a long, drawn-out civil war away from Terra.
Why lose three loyal legions in the process? I just don't see the necessity of it. Why not bother to check their loyalty, let the traitor legions join up, then destroy them? Or better yet, check their loyalty the moment he hears the stirrings of rebellion and destroy them piecemeal.
Pilau Rice wrote: Maybe and why he sent Russ to get Magnus, because he needed him for the Astronomicon/Golden Throne.
I think that is absolutely correct. The Emperor needed Magnus on his side, Russ was predisposed to think the Emperor wanted Magnus punished, and Horus brilliantly intercepted Russ and convinced him that XV Legion should be wiped out knowing that Magnus would believe this when he learned the Emperor sent Russ, of all primarchs, to Prospero. Even so, at the precipice of disaster, Russ asked Magnus to come out with his hands up. Another convergence point ...
He sent Russ to get Magnus because Magnus already messed up the Golden Throne. Why send Russ to punish Magnus for breaking the Golden Throne (disobeying the Council of Nikeaa too of course) so he could get Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne? Makes absolutely no sense.
If there seemed to be any gain at all in ten thousand years of Grimdark, I would say the Emperor(or perhaps, Emprah in this instance) was one cunning god-man. Since there seems to be no justification for this galactic failure, we simply have to see him as a being just as fallible as his sons.
Thanks! My first exalt ever
And wow that was a friggin huge post, I hope some of you actually bother to read it!
A civil war was going to happen no matter what, thanks to Chaos. The Emperor always knew this. He therefore attempted to control what that war would be like. He engineered all the major players, the primarchs, and even gave them the weapons to fight each other. He was NOT trying to prevent the war.
The objection "well why didn't the Emperor do X, Y, and Z to prevent the heresy/defeat the heretics" is irrelevant because that was not his goal.
The Emperor was not at all blind to the failings in some of the primarchs. Consider that he gave them massive armies anyway and in some cases even antagonized their personality disorders.
He sent Russ to get Magnus because Magnus already messed up the Golden Throne. Why send Russ to punish Magnus for breaking the Golden Throne (disobeying the Council of Nikeaa too of course) so he could get Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne? Makes absolutely no sense.
Indeed, but he needed to try and fix the damage Magnus had done and couldn't divert himself between the two. He needed Magnus to sit on the throne whilst he did what he did.
I don't entirely buy Manchus brainfoo but it's an interesting take on it.
Pilau Rice wrote: I don't entirely buy Manchus brainfoo but it's an interesting take on it.
I worked out my theory because the only other option I can see is that the Emperor is a complete idiot. And that does not fit with anything ever published about him. If someone has a third possibility (other than just saying "the authors are bad and don't know what they're doing") I'd be glad to consider it.
Pilau Rice wrote: He needed Magnus to sit on the throne whilst he did what he did.
I think this is all but a given, seeing how Malcador ended up having to do it.
Manchu wrote: I worked out my theory because the only other option I can see is that the Emperor is a complete idiot. And that does not fit with anything ever published about him. If someone has a third possibility (other than just saying "the authors are bad and don't know what they're doing") I'd be glad to consider it.
Unless he was a semi idiot and his prophetic abilities weren't quite as good as he thought them to be.
Do you really think the Emperor was a "semi idiot"? In fact, what is the practical difference between saying he is a semi idiot and saying he is a full blown idiot? My theory already accounts for him not being able to predict everything. As I keep noting, he took a risk. That risk may not make sense to some people but that is because they don't realize he had no other choice. As risky as his plan was, it was the one with the best chance of success. Amazingly, considering the capacity of his enemies, he may have even come very close to success.
And I am asking how it is a third possibility. The first part, that the Emperor is a semi idiot, is not practically different from arguing that he is a total idiot. The second part, that he overestimated his foresight, is already part of my theory.
And I am asking how it is a third possibility. The first part, that the Emperor is a semi idiot, is not practically different from arguing that he is a total idiot. The second part, that he overestimated his foresight, is already part of my theory.
Well what if, even with all his god-like abilities and that fact that he wasn't really human anymore, he still had a human origin (the mass human psyker coalescing thing) and still had something in common with humans, in that he could still make mistakes.
If anything, the Horus Heresy is a tale of hubris and of how pride comes before the fall. Despite his genius, the Emperor, in his arrogance, attempted to cheat the Chaos Gods out of their bargain and ultimately didn't anticipate what form their revenge would take. All the fluff seems to indicate he trusted his favored son, Horus, fully and so could not foresee his turn to Chaos simply by returning to Terra (besides, he made him Warmaster. What greater honour was there for him to give?).
This is supported by the fact that when he heard the warning from Magnus that Horus had turned, he ignored it and instead focused on chastising him (and well, he was super pissed off, for obvious reasons).
And the whole hubris thing applies to many of the traitor Primarchs, including Horus, Fulgrim, and Perturabo.
It's basically the biblical God and Lucifer here, except there are other gods in the equation as well (plus a dose of Greek gods and other mythologies).
This isn't necessarily theory three, I think it could easily be reconciled with theory one, where the Emperor is just neglectful and focused on the bigger picture, having no time for petty rivalries and jealousies. Doesn't this make more sense?
I am pretty sure that is indeed just another version of "the Emperor is an idiot," considering the "mistakes" you are talking about were completely obvious and obviously catastrophic. No, I don't think it makes very much sense to say that somehow a semi-, demi-, pseudo- or complete moron became the Master of Mankind. But rejecting that notion is not the same as saying the Emperor never made a mistake. I don't think he was or is a god, I don't think he was or is omniscient. But even considering these human limitations, the Emperor's achievements in no way indicate that he was dumb or blinded by love, pride, or whatever else. He simply had limits. He could only do so much at a given time, which is why I am suggesting he made these intricate plans to create a war that would be, for as long as possible, out of his way.
How are you guys not understanding this idea that Manchu is proposing?
Problem: the Emperor needed to hide the last stages of his Webway plan from the Chaos gods.
Solution: Deliberately engineer a massive civil war that would attract the investment of the Chaos gods between superpowered demigods and their posthuman armies on the other side of the galaxy.
That's the exact sort of cunning and ruthless plot I'd expect from someone of the Emperor's intellect. How else would he obscure what was happening on Terra? Throw a sheet over it? It's implied (perhaps outright stated? I'm not sure) that Magnus the Red's accidental damaging of the Golden Throne apparatus caused the proto-Webway portal to spew daemons into the throne room, so we (possibly) know that location already had the attention of the Ruinous Powers. The Emperor needed something that was a bigger deal than that to avert their gaze.
j31c3n wrote: How are you guys not understanding this idea that Manchu is proposing?
Problem: the Emperor needed to hide the last stages of his Webway plan from the Chaos gods.
Solution: Deliberately engineer a massive civil war that would attract the investment of the Chaos gods between superpowered demigods and their posthuman armies on the other side of the galaxy.
That's the exact sort of cunning and ruthless plot I'd expect from someone of the Emperor's intellect. How else would he obscure what was happening on Terra? Throw a sheet over it? It's implied (perhaps outright stated? I'm not sure) that Magnus the Red's accidental damaging of the Golden Throne apparatus caused the proto-Webway portal to spew daemons into the throne room, so we (possibly) know that location already had the attention of the Ruinous Powers. The Emperor needed something that was a bigger deal than that to avert their gaze.
Cunning, but why go through the theater of prolonging the heresy rather than crushing it? Why manipulate troublemakers when you could bend that slight effort towards more loyal sons and just quash it?
Manchu wrote: Yeah it is totally ruthless. If I'm right, he sent noble, faithful legions like the Sallies and RG into the jaws of doom.
And we know the Emperor is capable of that level of ruthlessness, it's implied he barely cared about the Butcher's Nails in Angron's head - even if he were to remain perfectly loyal in the best case scenario, Big E knew they were killing him. And then look what he did to the Thunder Warriors, his loyal troops and brothers-in-arms!
IIRC Lorgar confirmed there was no way to remove the nails. But the Emperor did abduct Angron and basically force him to watch helplessly as all his allies (and presumably at least some of them were his friends) were massacred by his oppressors.
Shidank wrote: Cunning, but why go through the theater of prolonging the heresy rather than crushing it? Why manipulate troublemakers when you could bend that slight effort towards more loyal sons and just quash it?
I'm starting to believe y'all are being deliberately disingenuous. The Emperor did not stop the Heresy because he did not want to stop the Heresy. He wanted a huge, enthralling, destructive, high-cost civil war between his sons. He wanted them to beat the everliving gak out of each other. The entire purpose of the Heresy was to be a massive spectacle that would catch the attention and investment of the Ruinous Powers, distracting them from his true goal: eliminating the need for humanity to traverse Warp space.
All 18 of his Legions were expendable tools in pursuit of this goal.
Manchu, I understand your theory, but I still choose the other option. The Emperor is painted up as the savior of mankind and basically a god. I would rather believe that he was blinded by pride or foolishness than that he intentionally masterminded a civil war and sent his own soldiers to the meat grinder.
Nothing personal, but until some author writes out that the Emperor was behind it all, I'll choose to believe my own theory.
Yeah man, it is arguable. It just seems extraordinarily boring to me to say, this whole HH thing happened because all the characters, especially the guy who is supposed to be the very smartest, are actually dumb as gak.
Manchu wrote: Yeah man, it is arguable. It just seems extraordinarily boring to me to say, this whole HH thing happened because all the characters, especially the guy who is supposed to be the very smartest, are actually dumb as gak.
Yeah, that was one of my big problems with the entire Heresy story as well, especially as it's become more and more detailed through the recent novels. Before all that extra attention, the Crusade and Heresy had all the trappings of a grim and unintended tragedy, but as flavor is added, it becomes difficult to explain how beings as intelligent as the Primarchs and Emperor could so consistently be so incredibly foolish. Pride goeth before a fall, but I just can't swallow anyone having that much pride. I favor your theory over any other I've heard.
Maybe 40K just needed a rough backstory in 1989 for the Horus Heresy and Epic Space Marine.
And that it didn't matter originally why Angryon was the Daemon Prince of Being Really Angry or that Lionel Johnson was the primarch of the Dark Angels, or that the blue Space Marines were called Ultramarines.
I always kinda chuckle as people try to assign rational thought processes to actions that were defined before there was a definitive universe for them to have been made in.
Why is the Emperor terrible at Emperoring at some points and great at it at other points? Because all the motivations for his actions have been determined after he'd made the action.
I mean, all this supposing and discussion when the answer is "40K was a Universe by Committee" and some of its most difficult to understand decisions were made back when it didn't matter why they were made. The problems have arisen when subsequent writers at GW have tried (and often failed) to assign rational motivation to actions that don't make sense.
Any reasonable Emperor would have just euthanized Angron and the 12th Legion would have joined the 2nd and 11th. Any reasonable Emperor wouldn't have had his best son smash his weakest son's favorite toy just because he was slow at conquering, causing the weakest son to search for validation elsewhere in a universe full of sneaky Chaos Gods the Emperor knew about. These were backstories created by writers who didn't think very hard about the implications of what those decisions were.
Thus you shouldn't think too hard about the implications of what those decisions were.
It's why writing about the World Eaters is always doomed to failure. Their back story doesn't make any sense. At all. No. Seriously. At all. I know somebody is starting to think "But Betrayer-" No. Stop. At all. Even Betrayer. It almost makes it worse because now irrational actions are being assigned rational intent. All of the World Eaters fluff that tries to assign rational motivations to the World Eaters ends up like zombie movies trying to explain how zombies work. They don't work. Just tell us there are zombies (World Eaters). The less we know about them, the better. Just like nobody tries to explain how the Orks remain a spacefaring civilization with leadership selected by might and not capability and no apparent concern for infrastructure. Because Mekboys. Check. That works. World Eaters. Because angry. Got it. All we need to know.
I mean, I know this is the Background forum, and it's all about discussing the background, but trying to assign rational understanding of cause and effect to decisions that weren't made using rational cause and effect is downright silly, lol.
I mean, why did he send the Legions to Isstvan? Who knows? Which version? The one the Thousand Sons were at before that was retconned? The one where the three legions were destroyed and their names struck from Imperial Record? The one with two As instead of two Ss?
Instead of euthanising Angron, I am more concerned by why the Emperor did not help Angron's rebellion instead to earn his trust and approval, and then let his super-techpriest friends dislodge the Nails.
If he could build the Throne, surely he could get the Nails out?
After doing those two things for Angron, it is likely that Angron would be as big fan of Empy as Sanguinius was.
What did the Emperor need with an army of psycopathic gladiators? That would be even less useful than Angron himself. They had no place in his Imperium. A stable, functional, taxpaying world does.
If anything, the Emperor would have forcibly removed Angron's Nails, adopting the Drago Philosophy.
I mean, seriously. Two primarchs were expendable. Imagine what must have been wrong with them if Angron was okay, lol.
Manchu wrote: If someone has a third possibility (other than just saying "the authors are bad and don't know what they're doing") I'd be glad to consider it.
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Ashiraya wrote: If he could build the Throne, surely he could get the Nails out?
The problem with being so awesome is everyone assumes you can do anything whatsoever because you are so awesome and when you can't they immediately say, well you must be an idiot or evil. Or at least that what seems to happen when 40k fans discuss the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: IIRC Lorgar confirmed there was no way to remove the nails. But the Emperor did abduct Angron and basically force him to watch helplessly as all his allies (and presumably at least some of them were his friends) were massacred by his oppressors.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Maybe 40K just needed a rough backstory in 1989 for the Horus Heresy and Epic Space Marine.
Vet, I love your posts and value your opinion (you even made me rethink my irrational Ultramarines hate), but this is seriously just a big "stop having fun guys." :(
We all know (or at least I'd hope so) that 40k as a setting is limited by its admittedly slapdash early story. I mean, come on. 85% of the Primarchs have the dumbest names (I think the worst is the Primarch of the Iron Hands legion being named IRON HANDS in latin).
But we know that and we're (or at least I am) having fun trying to salvage the backstory.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Maybe 40K just needed a rough backstory in 1989 for the Horus Heresy and Epic Space Marine.
And that it didn't matter originally why Angryon was the Daemon Prince of Being Really Angry or that Lionel Johnson was the primarch of the Dark Angels, or that the blue Space Marines were called Ultramarines.
I always kinda chuckle as people try to assign rational thought processes to actions that were defined before there was a definitive universe for them to have been made in.
Why is the Emperor terrible at Emperoring at some points and great at it at other points? Because all the motivations for his actions have been determined after he'd made the action.
I mean, all this supposing and discussion when the answer is "40K was a Universe by Committee" and some of its most difficult to understand decisions were made back when it didn't matter why they were made. The problems have arisen when subsequent writers at GW have tried (and often failed) to assign rational motivation to actions that don't make sense.
Any reasonable Emperor would have just euthanized Angron and the 12th Legion would have joined the 2nd and 11th. Any reasonable Emperor wouldn't have had his best son smash his weakest son's favorite toy just because he was slow at conquering, causing the weakest son to search for validation elsewhere in a universe full of sneaky Chaos Gods the Emperor knew about. These were backstories created by writers who didn't think very hard about the implications of what those decisions were.
Thus you shouldn't think too hard about the implications of what those decisions were.
It's why writing about the World Eaters is always doomed to failure. Their back story doesn't make any sense. At all. No. Seriously. At all. I know somebody is starting to think "But Betrayer-" No. Stop. At all. Even Betrayer. It almost makes it worse because now irrational actions are being assigned rational intent. All of the World Eaters fluff that tries to assign rational motivations to the World Eaters ends up like zombie movies trying to explain how zombies work. They don't work. Just tell us there are zombies (World Eaters). The less we know about them, the better. Just like nobody tries to explain how the Orks remain a spacefaring civilization with leadership selected by might and not capability and no apparent concern for infrastructure. Because Mekboys. Check. That works. World Eaters. Because angry. Got it. All we need to know.
I mean, I know this is the Background forum, and it's all about discussing the background, but trying to assign rational understanding of cause and effect to decisions that weren't made using rational cause and effect is downright silly, lol.
I mean, why did he send the Legions to Isstvan? Who knows? Which version? The one the Thousand Sons were at before that was retconned? The one where the three legions were destroyed and their names struck from Imperial Record? The one with two As instead of two Ss?
I dunno, I think most of us are aware that the HH novel series started long after the HH itself had been sketched out in Rogue Trader. Of course 40k fans are going to come to the 40k background section of a 40k forum to try rationalizing it. This is exactly what got BL on the NYT Best Seller List after all.
The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.
Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.
It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.
He stepped in for Angron and Mortarion because they were about to die, not because he wanted to intentionally traumatize them. I just don't see any proof of that. And Curze had his crazy visions the moment he saw the Emperor. The Emperor didn't do anything particularly interesting other than making a grand entrance and literally blinding the natives with his sparkly magnificence.
He withheld knowledge of Chaos from Magnus to shield and protect him, not to make him resent him. Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch behind the Emperor's back. The whole Council of Nikeaa thing was to prevent more tampering with the Warp.
Really? A being of such genius that he was able to conquer a planet, subsequently a solar system and a galaxy, and form an alliance with a faction that was strictly oppose his policy of atheism was an idiot? Because it would take an idiot to not see that he was causing irreperable damage to his sons. It seems to me that he could have saved Magnus by sending down his Marines to protect him and his people. I don't know enough about Magnus and Curze to comment on that.
He couldn't have saved Magnus by sending down marines. Magnus/ his men weren't in any danger like that, there was a hung called the flesh change, basically rapid mutation, and most of his men were dying from it so he made a deal with Tzeench to stop it.
And I am asking how it is a third possibility. The first part, that the Emperor is a semi idiot, is not practically different from arguing that he is a total idiot. The second part, that he overestimated his foresight, is already part of my theory.
Well what if, even with all his god-like abilities and that fact that he wasn't really human anymore, he still had a human origin (the mass human psyker coalescing thing) and still had something in common with humans, in that he could still make mistakes.
If anything, the Horus Heresy is a tale of hubris and of how pride comes before the fall. Despite his genius, the Emperor, in his arrogance, attempted to cheat the Chaos Gods out of their bargain and ultimately didn't anticipate what form their revenge would take. All the fluff seems to indicate he trusted his favored son, Horus, fully and so could not foresee his turn to Chaos simply by returning to Terra (besides, he made him Warmaster. What greater honour was there for him to give?).
This is supported by the fact that when he heard the warning from Magnus that Horus had turned, he ignored it and instead focused on chastising him (and well, he was super pissed off, for obvious reasons).
And the whole hubris thing applies to many of the traitor Primarchs, including Horus, Fulgrim, and Perturabo.
It's basically the biblical God and Lucifer here, except there are other gods in the equation as well (plus a dose of Greek gods and other mythologies).
This isn't necessarily theory three, I think it could easily be reconciled with theory one, where the Emperor is just neglectful and focused on the bigger picture, having no time for petty rivalries and jealousies. Doesn't this make more sense?
It seems to me that the Emperor had originally planned for Lorgar to mastermind and spearhead the rebellion, and thus cause for only four or five Legions to fall. He loved and trusted Horus so implicitly, that he could not believe he had fell. And he could not bring himself to strike Horus down even when Horus's damnation was evident.
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Manchu wrote: Yeah it is totally ruthless. If I'm right, he sent noble, faithful legions like the Sallies and RG into the jaws of doom.
I don't know about that. Mortarion and Purterabo seemed perfectly loyal and Chaos-free, with minimal reason to rebel in comparison to Angron and Lorgar. It seems to me that that was where the Emperor really fethed up and misjudged people, in that he thought that only a few would rebel, when in fact seemingly loyal Legions like the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc. turned out to be turncoats and oathbreakers with some SERIOUS issues.
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jreilly89 wrote: Manchu, I understand your theory, but I still choose the other option. The Emperor is painted up as the savior of mankind and basically a god. I would rather believe that he was blinded by pride or foolishness than that he intentionally masterminded a civil war and sent his own soldiers to the meat grinder.
Nothing personal, but until some author writes out that the Emperor was behind it all, I'll choose to believe my own theory.
Personally, I think that the Emperor wanted to become a God himself, as the whole Imperial Webway Project doesn't seem like something to sacrifice his sons for.
jreilly89 wrote: Manchu, I understand your theory, but I still choose the other option. The Emperor is painted up as the savior of mankind and basically a god. I would rather believe that he was blinded by pride or foolishness than that he intentionally masterminded a civil war and sent his own soldiers to the meat grinder.
Nothing personal, but until some author writes out that the Emperor was behind it all, I'll choose to believe my own theory.
Personally, I think that the Emperor wanted to become a God himself, as the whole Imperial Webway Project doesn't seem like something to sacrifice his sons for.
If that was true, I feel that supporting the Word Bearers rather than punishing them would be a better fast track to godhood.
The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.
Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.
It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.
He stepped in for Angron and Mortarion because they were about to die, not because he wanted to intentionally traumatize them. I just don't see any proof of that. And Curze had his crazy visions the moment he saw the Emperor. The Emperor didn't do anything particularly interesting other than making a grand entrance and literally blinding the natives with his sparkly magnificence.
He withheld knowledge of Chaos from Magnus to shield and protect him, not to make him resent him. Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch behind the Emperor's back. The whole Council of Nikeaa thing was to prevent more tampering with the Warp.
Really? A being of such genius that he was able to conquer a planet, subsequently a solar system and a galaxy, and form an alliance with a faction that was strictly oppose his policy of atheism was an idiot? Because it would take an idiot to not see that he was causing irreperable damage to his sons. It seems to me that he could have saved Magnus by sending down his Marines to protect him and his people. I don't know enough about Magnus and Curze to comment on that.
Again, he may have not seen the damage he was doing either a) due to pride or b) he just didn't care.
dusara217 wrote: I don't know about that. Mortarion and Purterabo seemed perfectly loyal and Chaos-free, with minimal reason to rebel in comparison to Angron and Lorgar. It seems to me that that was where the Emperor really fethed up and misjudged people, in that he thought that only a few would rebel, when in fact seemingly loyal Legions like the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc. turned out to be turncoats and oathbreakers with some SERIOUS issues.
Hmm, I think the Emperor definitely foresaw that Horus would turn on him and I think that is one of the key reasons he made Horus the Warmaster -- i.e., no other primarch would have the leadership ability to lead a contingent of primarchs in civil war against the Emperor. For example, to address your examples, Horus's skill was one of the main reasons or at least triggers for both Perturabo's and Mortarion's fall.
j31c3n wrote: I'm starting to believe y'all are being deliberately disingenuous. The Emperor did not stop the Heresy because he did not want to stop the Heresy. He wanted a huge, enthralling, destructive, high-cost civil war between his sons. He wanted them to beat the everliving gak out of each other. The entire purpose of the Heresy was to be a massive spectacle that would catch the attention and investment of the Ruinous Powers, distracting them from his true goal: eliminating the need for humanity to traverse Warp space.
All 18 of his Legions were expendable tools in pursuit of this goal.
That's not it at all, I just don't find the theory convincing. There are just too many holes in it. Why ignore Magnus's warning if he knew a civil war was coming? Why not monitor the loyalty of his subjects and sacrifice 3 loyal legions for no purpose at all, almost losing the war in the process? Why instigate a civil war when he was already working on the Golden Throne, when it got broken beyond repair the moment the Heresy began? Why send Russ to retrieve Magnus so he could sit on the Golden Throne right after he had broken said Golden Throne? And why make such a big deal out of him returning to Terra and name Horus Warmaster, when he didn't want attention focused on what he was doing?
The theory is nice but just doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny.
But ok, if you find convincing it, then great, I just don't find myself convinced. And yea what Veteran Sergeant said is true, it's just writers from way back doing their own thing without thinking of all the possible consequences. The hubris and well-intentioned censuring thing seems to fit nicely with what they've written and what all the fluff from say Index Astartes and so on seem to imply.
j31c3n wrote: I'm starting to believe y'all are being deliberately disingenuous. The Emperor did not stop the Heresy because he did not want to stop the Heresy. He wanted a huge, enthralling, destructive, high-cost civil war between his sons. He wanted them to beat the everliving gak out of each other. The entire purpose of the Heresy was to be a massive spectacle that would catch the attention and investment of the Ruinous Powers, distracting them from his true goal: eliminating the need for humanity to traverse Warp space.
All 18 of his Legions were expendable tools in pursuit of this goal.
That's not it at all, I just don't find the theory convincing. There are just too many holes in it. Why ignore Magnus's warning if he knew a civil war was coming? Why not monitor the loyalty of his subjects and sacrifice 3 loyal legions for no purpose at all, almost losing the war in the process? Why instigate a civil war when he was already working on the Golden Throne, when it got broken beyond repair the moment the Heresy began? Why send Russ to retrieve Magnus so he could sit on the Golden Throne right after he had broken said Golden Throne? And why make such a big deal out of him returning to Terra and name Horus Warmaster, when he didn't want attention focused on what he was doing?
The theory is nice but just doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny.
But ok, if you find convincing it, then great, I just don't find myself convinced. And yea what Veteran Sergeant said is true, it's just writers from way back doing their own thing without thinking of all the possible consequences. The hubris and well-intentioned censuring thing seems to fit nicely with what they've written and what all the fluff from say Index Astartes and so on seem to imply.
Magnus never broke the Golden Throne, I don't know where you got that idea from. What Magnus did was tear a hole in the Imperial Webway, which Daemons proceeded to pour through and subsequently into Terra.
dusara217 wrote: I don't know about that. Mortarion and Purterabo seemed perfectly loyal and Chaos-free, with minimal reason to rebel in comparison to Angron and Lorgar. It seems to me that that was where the Emperor really fethed up and misjudged people, in that he thought that only a few would rebel, when in fact seemingly loyal Legions like the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc. turned out to be turncoats and oathbreakers with some SERIOUS issues.
Hmm, I think the Emperor definitely foresaw that Horus would turn on him and I think that is one of the key reasons he made Horus the Warmaster -- i.e., no other primarch would have the leadership ability to lead a contingent of primarchs in civil war against the Emperor. For example, to address your examples, Horus's skill was one of the main reasons or at least triggers for both Perturabo's and Mortarion's fall.
You know what, I'm gonna revise my theory to: The Emperor wanted to become the God of Order, and in order to do that he would have to be layed low in such a manner that he would still be bound to his body without being rejuvenated as a Perpetual. Chaos Horus saw to that, and Emprah saved himself at the last second, and then put himself onto the Golden Throne so that he could gather power for as along as possible, until the Golden Throne failed and he could stand on his own feet, so to speak, and create his own Daemons (see: Legion of the Damned theories) to help him combat Chaos. Another part of this is that he rescued as many Primarchs' souls as he could, so that they could become his Daemon Princes, so to speak, and eventually become his fellow Gods.
dusara217 wrote: Magnus never broke the Golden Throne, I don't know where you got that idea from. What Magnus did was tear a hole in the Imperial Webway, which Daemons proceeded to pour through and subsequently into Terra..
Oh, well then he made it pretty useless since that made travel through the Imperial Webway all but impossible. I just equated that with breaking the Golden Throne since that was its primary purpose but I guess that wouldn't make sense since it's also the beacon for the Astronomican.
And he did break it in the sense that someone now has to sit on it permanently to prevent daemons from flooding through.
"The portal was closed but only the psychic power of the Emperor was enough to keep it that way so he was forced to remain on the Golden Throne or find a suitable replacement. When the Emperor was forced to battle Horus on board the Sons of Horus flagship, the Vengeful Spirit, his place on the throne was taken briefly by Malcador the Sigillite. Malcador perished performing this endeavor, and the mortally wounded Emperor was reinstated upon the Throne after his battle with Horus."
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Golden_Throne)
Wait, doesn't this put a bigger hole in the theory than the throne merely breaking beyond repair? Not only did Magnus doom the Imperial Webway project forever, he also made it so that the Emperor needs to sit on the throne permanently and use his psychic powers to stop the demons. And it gave Chaos a foothold on Holy Terra of all places. Again, no Heresy, no psychic warning and a functional Imperial Webway.
dusara217 wrote: Magnus never broke the Golden Throne, I don't know where you got that idea from. What Magnus did was tear a hole in the Imperial Webway, which Daemons proceeded to pour through and subsequently into Terra..
Oh, well then he made it pretty useless since that made travel through the Imperial Webway all but impossible. I just equated that with breaking the Golden Throne since that was its primary purpose but I guess that wouldn't make sense since it's also the beacon for the Astronomican.
And he did break it in the sense that someone now has to sit on it permanently to prevent daemons from flooding through.
"The portal was closed but only the psychic power of the Emperor was enough to keep it that way so he was forced to remain on the Golden Throne or find a suitable replacement. When the Emperor was forced to battle Horus on board the Sons of Horus flagship, the Vengeful Spirit, his place on the throne was taken briefly by Malcador the Sigillite. Malcador perished performing this endeavor, and the mortally wounded Emperor was reinstated upon the Throne after his battle with Horus."
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Golden_Throne)
Wait, doesn't this put a bigger hole in the theory than the throne merely breaking beyond repair? Not only did Magnus doom the Imperial Webway project forever, he also made it so that the Emperor needs to sit on the throne permanently and use his psychic powers to stop the demons. And it gave Chaos a foothold on Holy Terra of all places. Again, no Heresy, no psychic warning and a functional Imperial Webway.
That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.
Orblivion wrote: That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.
Oh okay, that's what I was familiar with. I must gotten the "broken beyond repair thing" from this forum actually. There was a Magnus discussion a while back before I started posting
Orblivion wrote: That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.
Oh okay, that's what I was familiar with. I must gotten the "broken beyond repair thing" from this forum actually. There was a Magnus discussion a while back before I started posting
I actually prefer the old version, it seems more innocent of Magnus. Rather than the new version of shattering his way through the walls of the webway with the help of a "warp entity", in the old version he used sorcery to just send a message directly to the Emperor, hoping to avoid relaying it through astropaths who might be loyal to Horus.
The only upside of the new version is that it depicts Magnus as not actually delivering his warning, whereas in the old one the Emperor was so mad he completely ignored the fully delivered message.
Orblivion wrote: That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.
Oh okay, that's what I was familiar with. I must gotten the "broken beyond repair thing" from this forum actually. There was a Magnus discussion a while back before I started posting
I actually prefer the old version, it seems more innocent of Magnus. Rather than the new version of shattering his way through the walls of the webway with the help of a "warp entity", in the old version he used sorcery to just send a message directly to the Emperor, hoping to avoid relaying it through astropaths who might be loyal to Horus.
The only upside of the new version is that it depicts Magnus as not actually delivering his warning, whereas in the old one the Emperor was so mad he completely ignored the fully delivered message.
Well, according to False Gods, Magnus did get his message across
Da Ork Killa wrote: Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)
Yeah they are pretty awesome. But the whole Curze tortured Vulkan and was killed by that lighting bolt thing was kinda some bs writing
Hmm... Is that out of Vulkan (Lives?) One of the Horus Heresy books? I haven't read that one yet.
I have read a part of a Salamanders book written by Nick Kymes, I beleive, it depicted the birth of Nocturne. That read fairly well from memory.
Da Ork Killa wrote: Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)
Yeah they are pretty awesome. But the whole Curze tortured Vulkan and was killed by that lighting bolt thing was kinda some bs writing
Hmm... Is that out of Vulkan (Lives?) One of the Horus Heresy books? I haven't read that one yet.
I have read a part of a Salamanders book written by Nick Kymes, I beleive, it depicted the birth of Nocturne. That read fairly well from memory.
And I am asking how it is a third possibility. The first part, that the Emperor is a semi idiot, is not practically different from arguing that he is a total idiot. The second part, that he overestimated his foresight, is already part of my theory.
So a combination of the two, he got some things right and some things wrong and his foresight let him down on occasion. Your theory suggests that everything was done intentionally the other says that it was all a big cock up. I'm not saying either is correct but that a combination of both could be possible. Nor am I saying that this is correct either. Just putting something else forward. I only said Idiot because idiot was mentioned before. It doesn't necessarily make him an idiot having things go awry. Certain things were beyond his control, if not everything, and he guided events as best he could. But from a readers perspective if he didn't intend the Heresy to go the way it did, then he did make mistakes. Mistakes that made the Primarchs bitter towards him, that were preventable. He wasn't a perfect being. Perhaps it isn't in the middle of what's been put forward here but I am trying to offer one up. I am sure that other people have their own version.
I know the Emperor is fully capable of doing anything for mankind, and it's entirely possible that the Astartes and the Primarchs were expendable once they had achieved their aims. But I like the Primarchs and I like the Emperor. So rather than him being Ming the Merciless or Homer Simpson we have Brain, no, Dick Dastardly, no..... A loveable rogue who's plans don't always go as intended
Manchu wrote: IIRC Lorgar confirmed there was no way to remove the nails. But the Emperor did abduct Angron and basically force him to watch helplessly as all his allies (and presumably at least some of them were his friends) were massacred by his oppressors.
And then he gave him an army of super warriors.
So ...
Well, when you put it like that...
Yeah, but it was Angrons reason for being, so why wouldn't the Emperor give him his Legion. The War Hounds were savage fighters but nothing like the World Eaters and I don't know if the Emperor would have been aware of the route that Angron would take them down. After reading Betrayer I think that the Emperor actually saved Angron on Nuceria, or at least tried to delay the inevitable.
Hmm... Is that out of Vulkan (Lives?) One of the Horus Heresy books? I haven't read that one yet.
I have read a part of a Salamanders book written by Nick Kymes, I beleive, it depicted the birth of Nocturne. That read fairly well from memory.
Yeah Vulkan Lives is the one
Isn't it Unremembered Empire where Grammaticus stabs Vulkan with the Fulgurite Spear?
ImAGeek wrote: John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.
Except he wasn't a perpetual, the Cabal were the ones bringing him back to life every time he died, it's right in Legion. He even asks the Eldar Autarch not to bring him back right before he jumped out the airlock.
ImAGeek wrote: John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.
Except he wasn't a perpetual, the Cabal were the ones bringing him back to life every time he died, it's right in Legion. He even asks the Eldar Autarch not to bring him back right before he jumped out the airlock.
Spoiler:
He asks him not to, doesn't mean he doesnt. Actually, I think I'm Vulkan Lives, it says he is a Perpetual, going by Lexicanum. They still need him. He's in Unremembered Empire. Have you not read it or something?
ImAGeek wrote: John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.
Except he wasn't a perpetual, the Cabal were the ones bringing him back to life every time he died, it's right in Legion. He even asks the Eldar Autarch not to bring him back right before he jumped out the airlock.
Spoiler:
He asks him not to, doesn't mean he doesnt. They still need him. He's in Unremembered Empire. Have you not read it or something?
Pilau Rice wrote: Your theory suggests that everything was done intentionally
Done intentionally, yes. Worked out exactly as he wanted, no.
So, we've officially swapped meta.
My original theory was that of the Primarchs', that each of them would have had a place in the post-crusade Imperium. I don't believe the Emperor wanted them to fight one another to cut down on the number of soldiers after the war.
And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)
