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 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
I chose the thousand sons. Mainly because they are the most interesting and in some ways most tragic IMO. They were cursed from the beginning, and when their Primarch "fixed" the problem he made the classic Faustian bargain with tzeench. I honestly think, apart from Angron, that the emperor screwed over Magnus the hardest. The leading theory on his purpose would be to sit the golden throne for the rest of eternity. that is a great future to look forward to. I think the psyker mastery thing as well as the egtyptian/aztec theme really go well, and i think Arhiman is one of the most interesting characters in the fluff.

Can you elaborate? I know the SW went to attack the 1k Sons, but thats all I know.

Look up the Edict of Nikaea, as well as a synopsis of a Thousand sons

That helps. No, I know about the edict of Nikaea, butbhow did the Emperor screw over Magnus?

I don't think he did really. People seem to think he did but I don't really see it. Yeah he sent the wolves after them after he wrecked the webway, but he only sent them to censure them. Horus twisted that into a kill order.

He practically outlawed their Legion's method of warfare and main focus, Even though they've made a better case than " I HATE PSYKERS BECAUSE MY DAD WAS A PSYKER AND HE HIT ME"- Mortarion or "I don't trust psykers who do not have -Wolf in their names" -Leman Russ.

I picked the Iron Warriors, Althought the 1kSons and the World Eaters are pretty close behind imo.

I say he screwed him over, not because the wolves destroyed peospero, although that is a symptom of it. I think the true crime here is that the emperor created Maguns to be The ultimate psyker, knowing the dangers of the warp and delving into sorcery. He based an entire legion's geneseed on this strain and when it became unstable he basically shrugged and said "Oh well, I hope we can fix this before we have to destroy the legion". When they found Magnus, he dropped off the legion on Prospero and said "good luck with this one son, i haven't really had time to figure out why your legion has 'the change' but i'm sure you will figure it out. Magnus does, making a pact with tzeench in the process, which basically damns him. After that, the emperor holds the council of Nikea and says "Sorry Magnus, i know you were created for the singular purpose of mastering psychic sorcery, but we are not going to do that any more and your legion cant use their one awesome power any more" All the while still intending Magnus to sit the golden throne once everything was said and done. He created Magnus to use as a battery, and at best neglected him and at worst predetermined him to damnation and failure through the emperor's indifference and neglect.

I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...

... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.

Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.

Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.

Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.

 Manchu wrote:
Dunno why, but I had you pegged as a 1ksons fan Ashiraya.

They are very cool, but I enjoy the weird benevolence-humility thing the Salamanders have going on, and the Night Lords play in my favourite tropes (psychological warfare, stealth) plus gigantic armoured supersoldiers sneaking around is an awesome idea in itself.

So you have both ends of the spectrum covered -- the humane and the misanthropic.

Don't forget JUSTICE. Some parts of the Legion still believe they're space batman, like Sevetar.

I don't have any of the Legions myself (or SM of any kind for that matter) but I've always liked the idea of a few of the legions.

Always liked the idea of the Salamanders, genetically modified superhumans who actually realize that they exist to protect the people and not just the Imperium.

Imperial Fists simply because I love defending things and they're the iconic defenders, Siege of Terra and whatnot.

Thousand Sons because they were betrayed and were in fact loyalist. I also agree with their creed, "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."

Alpha Legion. For reasons.

 Manchu wrote:
I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...

... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.

Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.

Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.

Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.

I don't think Magnus had many options at that point. he was kept in the dark, and so he couldn't make an informed decision. As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday. Also, his entire legion had built themselves around the mastery of psychic powers, so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated.

Full disclosure on my part, I think the emperor was absolutely terrible as a leader and did a really piss poor job of managing the imperium after the unification of Terra. He is the true architect of the Heresy because if he hadn't have had so much pride, hadn't played favorites and just been a competent example for his sons this wouldn't have happened. The entire Imperial Truth situation was FUBAR. His failure to Magnus and the Thousand sons stands chief among his crimes though IMO. Magnus did the best with what he could.

Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...

... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.

Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.

Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.

Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.

I don't think Magnus had many options at that point. he was kept in the dark, and so he couldn't make an informed decision. As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday. Also, his entire legion had built themselves around the mastery of psychic powers, so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated.

Full disclosure on my part, I think the emperor was absolutely terrible as a leader and did a really piss poor job of managing the imperium after the unification of Terra. He is the true architect of the Heresy because if he hadn't have had so much pride, hadn't played favorites and just been a competent example for his sons this wouldn't have happened. The entire Imperial Truth situation was FUBAR. His failure to Magnus and the Thousand sons stands chief among his crimes though IMO. Magnus did the best with what he could.

Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.

The Emperor was basically the savior of mankind, akin to a god. No one said he was supposed to flawless. Rather, I think he's a lot like Zeus, full of flaws. I think the Emperor had a plan but I don't think he masterminded the HH. Rather, I think he put too much faith in to his sons following him and obeying his orders and never suspected one would turn on him.

 GKTiberius wrote:

Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.

Actually, Magnus was tutored in the way of the warp by the Emperor before he was reunited with the Emperor, at least according to Magnus himself, in "A Thousand Sons".

Me? No, I never lost contact with my fahter. We spoke many times before he ever set foot on Prospero. That is a bond that none of my brothers can claim. (A Thousand Sons. "SIXTEEN")

It wasn't until some time after the reunion of the Emperor and Magnus that the Primarch took command of his legion. During the interim Magnus had spent his time in the great libraries on Terra, and saw Fulgrim and Ferrus competing their crafting skills against each other, etc.. So it'd seem that there is a long time between the recovery of Magnus and Magnus taking control of the XV Legion.

On the other hand, the Emperor had warned Magnus of the dangers of the Warp long before the events in Nikea; regardless of the warning Magnus had always dreamt of mastering the warp. As much as the Emperor is a piss-poor father and a very inconsiderate ruler, Magnus was a rebellious and obstinate son. It is really tragic consider what potential he had.

Anyways Vulkan is for me, he's just nice. It's nice to have a nice dude in a time of superhuman dicking each other.

 GKTiberius wrote:
As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday.

This is sort of what I mean. It would take monumental arrogance to assume the Emperor had no good reason for his actions.

 GKTiberius wrote:
so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated

Sounds like 1ksons version of First World Problems. Attention special snowflakes of XV Legion: put down the book, pick up the bolter.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct?

I don't know but I do know the Emperor and Magnus were in contact through the Warp long before they met face-to-face on Prospero.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Rather, I think he put too much faith in to his sons following him and obeying his orders and never suspected one would turn on him.

There are pretty much two possibilities: either (a) the Emperor is a total moron with no insight whatsoever into the human psyche or (b) he set up at least some of his sons to fail.

Sanguinius Is the coolest Primarch he's practically an angel minus the immortality!

 Manchu wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday.

This is sort of what I mean. It would take monumental arrogance to assume the Emperor had no good reason for his actions.

 GKTiberius wrote:
so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated

Sounds like 1ksons version of First World Problems. Attention special snowflakes of XV Legion: put down the book, pick up the bolter.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct?

I don't know but I do know the Emperor and Magnus were in contact through the Warp long before they met face-to-face on Prospero.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Rather, I think he put too much faith in to his sons following him and obeying his orders and never suspected one would turn on him.

There are pretty much two possibilities: either (a) the Emperor is a total moron with no insight whatsoever into the human psyche or (b) he set up at least some of his sons to fail.

Not really. He could have easily been blinded by pride or love, its a classic thing, especially in the father/son or master/student stories.

The Emperor was blinded by love? by pride? by SCIENCE?!

No, it doesn't really make sense that the Emperor, one of the greatest if not the greatest psyker ever, wouldn't notice the massive personality disorders overtly demonstrated by the primarchs.

I still maintain that the Emperor was so far removed from humanity at this point that things like emotion just didn't register with him. And he made some questionable fathering choices. I don't see him setting up his sons to fall, I don't see the point, or what he would achieve from that.

I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.

Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.

Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.

 Manchu wrote:
I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.

Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.

Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.

Oh okay I see, so he failed in his plan then? Because he's in the golden throne and makind still uses the warp. I thought you meant he got the outcome he wanted from his plan, my bad. I can see that. I don't know if I want that to be the case, but I can see it.

And I was mostly being flippant with the fatherly choices, I agree that he wasn't really a father, and the Primarchs weren't really sons. Although he didn't choose the time and place he would meet them. A lot of them were found by chance during the Great Crusade.

Yeah he totally failed. But still a pretty impressive gamble considering he was up against the Chaos Gods.

 Manchu wrote:
I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.

Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.

Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.

But that doesn't hold up. Destroying half the IoM surely did not help mankind's rule of the galaxy, nor did him being interred on a golden throne. He's also being worshiped as a god, which is another thing he expressly didn't want (Wordbearers).

Be it Chaos, his own ambition, love of his "genetic creations", what have you, I think something blinded him to his own folly of not considering he could be betrayed.

Ahem, see above.

I also find it doubtful the chaos gods could be easily distracted by a, to them, petty and minor thing like a war

 Manchu wrote:
Ahem, see above.

Okay, so what was his endgame? How did setting one of the Primarchs up to fail help?

BrianDavion wrote:
I also find it doubtful the chaos gods could be easily distracted by a, to them, petty and minor thing like a war

It wasn't just 'a war' though. The Chaos gods were pretty heavily invested in the heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Ahem, see above.

Okay, so what was his endgame? How did setting one of the Primarchs up to fail help?

I don't nessecarily agree with Manchus theory but he did explain that in his post.

His endgame was to distract the Chaos gods to bide himself time to sort out Humanities reliance on the Warp (from what I gather).

BrianDavion wrote:
I also find it doubtful the chaos gods could be easily distracted by a, to them, petty and minor thing like a war

And yet they were pretty heavily invested in the Heresy.

 ImAGeek wrote:
His endgame was to distract the Chaos gods to bide himself time to sort out Humanities reliance on the Warp (from what I gather).

Correct, he was working on the human version of the webway, a.k.a., the original purpose of the Golden Throne. That's my theory at least.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Chaos gods were pretty heavily invested in the heresy.

LOL! My thoughts exactly in a literal sense.

 Manchu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I also find it doubtful the chaos gods could be easily distracted by a, to them, petty and minor thing like a war

And yet they were pretty heavily invested in the Heresy.

 ImAGeek wrote:
His endgame was to distract the Chaos gods to bide himself time to sort out Humanities reliance on the Warp (from what I gather).

Correct, he was working on the human version of the webway, a.k.a., the original purpose of the Golden Throne. That's my theory at least.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Chaos gods were pretty heavily invested in the heresy.

LOL! My thoughts exactly in a literal sense.

But in his all seeing ness, wouldn't he see that he would at least stand the chance of being wounded, if not out right killed? It seems like a pretty long bomb plan, and exceptionally risky. Besides, say the HH had happened as planned, he works out the human webway, what then? At best, Horus is dead and so is Sanguinius, and the Emperor is wounded to some degree.

I don't know how fighting the chaos game in a galaxy-level game of chess is anything but risky. But he's the Emperor after all.

Poor, poor Luna Wolves. Nobody likes them.

 Alpharius wrote:
I got the first vote - and I'm lockin' this poll right now!

We win!

WE FINALLY WIN!!!

And we still are!

Well, he has certainly profited it from it. While the Emperor initially was against being recognized as a god, he is a warp entity now, and probably will be reborn fully as a true warp god when the throne fails.

Manchu, I don't understand your theory. I don't see how a civil war would benefit the Emperor's plan to rid humanity of its reliance on the Warp. If anything, the HH caused his plan to fail because Magnus sent his psychic warning. It seems more like the Heresy was an unintended result of his plan, not a part of it (because it fueled the Primarchs' suspicions on what the Emperor was up to).

And wasn't the point of the Webway project to hold the Imperium together? Doesn't make sense to rip up the Imperium you just spent 200 years building as a distraction when one of the first things that happen is the Golden Throne getting messed up.

 j31c3n wrote:
Poor, poor Luna Wolves. Nobody likes them.

I like them! I like them even more as the Sons of Horus! But I like the Dark Angels more