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 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I was offering up a third possible possibility.

And I am asking how it is a third possibility. The first part, that the Emperor is a semi idiot, is not practically different from arguing that he is a total idiot. The second part, that he overestimated his foresight, is already part of my theory.

Well what if, even with all his god-like abilities and that fact that he wasn't really human anymore, he still had a human origin (the mass human psyker coalescing thing) and still had something in common with humans, in that he could still make mistakes.

If anything, the Horus Heresy is a tale of hubris and of how pride comes before the fall. Despite his genius, the Emperor, in his arrogance, attempted to cheat the Chaos Gods out of their bargain and ultimately didn't anticipate what form their revenge would take. All the fluff seems to indicate he trusted his favored son, Horus, fully and so could not foresee his turn to Chaos simply by returning to Terra (besides, he made him Warmaster. What greater honour was there for him to give?).

This is supported by the fact that when he heard the warning from Magnus that Horus had turned, he ignored it and instead focused on chastising him (and well, he was super pissed off, for obvious reasons).

And the whole hubris thing applies to many of the traitor Primarchs, including Horus, Fulgrim, and Perturabo.

It's basically the biblical God and Lucifer here, except there are other gods in the equation as well (plus a dose of Greek gods and other mythologies).

This isn't necessarily theory three, I think it could easily be reconciled with theory one, where the Emperor is just neglectful and focused on the bigger picture, having no time for petty rivalries and jealousies. Doesn't this make more sense?

It seems to me that the Emperor had originally planned for Lorgar to mastermind and spearhead the rebellion, and thus cause for only four or five Legions to fall. He loved and trusted Horus so implicitly, that he could not believe he had fell. And he could not bring himself to strike Horus down even when Horus's damnation was evident.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah it is totally ruthless. If I'm right, he sent noble, faithful legions like the Sallies and RG into the jaws of doom.

I don't know about that. Mortarion and Purterabo seemed perfectly loyal and Chaos-free, with minimal reason to rebel in comparison to Angron and Lorgar. It seems to me that that was where the Emperor really fethed up and misjudged people, in that he thought that only a few would rebel, when in fact seemingly loyal Legions like the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc. turned out to be turncoats and oathbreakers with some SERIOUS issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Manchu, I understand your theory, but I still choose the other option. The Emperor is painted up as the savior of mankind and basically a god. I would rather believe that he was blinded by pride or foolishness than that he intentionally masterminded a civil war and sent his own soldiers to the meat grinder.

Nothing personal, but until some author writes out that the Emperor was behind it all, I'll choose to believe my own theory.

Personally, I think that the Emperor wanted to become a God himself, as the whole Imperial Webway Project doesn't seem like something to sacrifice his sons for.

 dusara217 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Manchu, I understand your theory, but I still choose the other option. The Emperor is painted up as the savior of mankind and basically a god. I would rather believe that he was blinded by pride or foolishness than that he intentionally masterminded a civil war and sent his own soldiers to the meat grinder.

Nothing personal, but until some author writes out that the Emperor was behind it all, I'll choose to believe my own theory.

Personally, I think that the Emperor wanted to become a God himself, as the whole Imperial Webway Project doesn't seem like something to sacrifice his sons for.

If that was true, I feel that supporting the Word Bearers rather than punishing them would be a better fast track to godhood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Going to have to lean on fool then

That is totally implausible.

The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.

Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.

It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.

He stepped in for Angron and Mortarion because they were about to die, not because he wanted to intentionally traumatize them. I just don't see any proof of that. And Curze had his crazy visions the moment he saw the Emperor. The Emperor didn't do anything particularly interesting other than making a grand entrance and literally blinding the natives with his sparkly magnificence.

He withheld knowledge of Chaos from Magnus to shield and protect him, not to make him resent him. Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch behind the Emperor's back. The whole Council of Nikeaa thing was to prevent more tampering with the Warp.

Really? A being of such genius that he was able to conquer a planet, subsequently a solar system and a galaxy, and form an alliance with a faction that was strictly oppose his policy of atheism was an idiot? Because it would take an idiot to not see that he was causing irreperable damage to his sons. It seems to me that he could have saved Magnus by sending down his Marines to protect him and his people. I don't know enough about Magnus and Curze to comment on that.

Again, he may have not seen the damage he was doing either a) due to pride or b) he just didn't care.

 dusara217 wrote:
I don't know about that. Mortarion and Purterabo seemed perfectly loyal and Chaos-free, with minimal reason to rebel in comparison to Angron and Lorgar. It seems to me that that was where the Emperor really fethed up and misjudged people, in that he thought that only a few would rebel, when in fact seemingly loyal Legions like the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc. turned out to be turncoats and oathbreakers with some SERIOUS issues.

Hmm, I think the Emperor definitely foresaw that Horus would turn on him and I think that is one of the key reasons he made Horus the Warmaster -- i.e., no other primarch would have the leadership ability to lead a contingent of primarchs in civil war against the Emperor. For example, to address your examples, Horus's skill was one of the main reasons or at least triggers for both Perturabo's and Mortarion's fall.

 j31c3n wrote:
I'm starting to believe y'all are being deliberately disingenuous. The Emperor did not stop the Heresy because he did not want to stop the Heresy. He wanted a huge, enthralling, destructive, high-cost civil war between his sons. He wanted them to beat the everliving gak out of each other. The entire purpose of the Heresy was to be a massive spectacle that would catch the attention and investment of the Ruinous Powers, distracting them from his true goal: eliminating the need for humanity to traverse Warp space.

All 18 of his Legions were expendable tools in pursuit of this goal.

That's not it at all, I just don't find the theory convincing. There are just too many holes in it. Why ignore Magnus's warning if he knew a civil war was coming? Why not monitor the loyalty of his subjects and sacrifice 3 loyal legions for no purpose at all, almost losing the war in the process? Why instigate a civil war when he was already working on the Golden Throne, when it got broken beyond repair the moment the Heresy began? Why send Russ to retrieve Magnus so he could sit on the Golden Throne right after he had broken said Golden Throne? And why make such a big deal out of him returning to Terra and name Horus Warmaster, when he didn't want attention focused on what he was doing?

The theory is nice but just doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny.

But ok, if you find convincing it, then great, I just don't find myself convinced. And yea what Veteran Sergeant said is true, it's just writers from way back doing their own thing without thinking of all the possible consequences. The hubris and well-intentioned censuring thing seems to fit nicely with what they've written and what all the fluff from say Index Astartes and so on seem to imply.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
I'm starting to believe y'all are being deliberately disingenuous. The Emperor did not stop the Heresy because he did not want to stop the Heresy. He wanted a huge, enthralling, destructive, high-cost civil war between his sons. He wanted them to beat the everliving gak out of each other. The entire purpose of the Heresy was to be a massive spectacle that would catch the attention and investment of the Ruinous Powers, distracting them from his true goal: eliminating the need for humanity to traverse Warp space.

All 18 of his Legions were expendable tools in pursuit of this goal.

That's not it at all, I just don't find the theory convincing. There are just too many holes in it. Why ignore Magnus's warning if he knew a civil war was coming? Why not monitor the loyalty of his subjects and sacrifice 3 loyal legions for no purpose at all, almost losing the war in the process? Why instigate a civil war when he was already working on the Golden Throne, when it got broken beyond repair the moment the Heresy began? Why send Russ to retrieve Magnus so he could sit on the Golden Throne right after he had broken said Golden Throne? And why make such a big deal out of him returning to Terra and name Horus Warmaster, when he didn't want attention focused on what he was doing?

The theory is nice but just doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny.

But ok, if you find convincing it, then great, I just don't find myself convinced. And yea what Veteran Sergeant said is true, it's just writers from way back doing their own thing without thinking of all the possible consequences. The hubris and well-intentioned censuring thing seems to fit nicely with what they've written and what all the fluff from say Index Astartes and so on seem to imply.

Magnus never broke the Golden Throne, I don't know where you got that idea from. What Magnus did was tear a hole in the Imperial Webway, which Daemons proceeded to pour through and subsequently into Terra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I don't know about that. Mortarion and Purterabo seemed perfectly loyal and Chaos-free, with minimal reason to rebel in comparison to Angron and Lorgar. It seems to me that that was where the Emperor really fethed up and misjudged people, in that he thought that only a few would rebel, when in fact seemingly loyal Legions like the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc. turned out to be turncoats and oathbreakers with some SERIOUS issues.

Hmm, I think the Emperor definitely foresaw that Horus would turn on him and I think that is one of the key reasons he made Horus the Warmaster -- i.e., no other primarch would have the leadership ability to lead a contingent of primarchs in civil war against the Emperor. For example, to address your examples, Horus's skill was one of the main reasons or at least triggers for both Perturabo's and Mortarion's fall.

You know what, I'm gonna revise my theory to: The Emperor wanted to become the God of Order, and in order to do that he would have to be layed low in such a manner that he would still be bound to his body without being rejuvenated as a Perpetual. Chaos Horus saw to that, and Emprah saved himself at the last second, and then put himself onto the Golden Throne so that he could gather power for as along as possible, until the Golden Throne failed and he could stand on his own feet, so to speak, and create his own Daemons (see: Legion of the Damned theories) to help him combat Chaos. Another part of this is that he rescued as many Primarchs' souls as he could, so that they could become his Daemon Princes, so to speak, and eventually become his fellow Gods.

 dusara217 wrote:
Magnus never broke the Golden Throne, I don't know where you got that idea from. What Magnus did was tear a hole in the Imperial Webway, which Daemons proceeded to pour through and subsequently into Terra..

Oh, well then he made it pretty useless since that made travel through the Imperial Webway all but impossible. I just equated that with breaking the Golden Throne since that was its primary purpose but I guess that wouldn't make sense since it's also the beacon for the Astronomican.

And he did break it in the sense that someone now has to sit on it permanently to prevent daemons from flooding through.

"The portal was closed but only the psychic power of the Emperor was enough to keep it that way so he was forced to remain on the Golden Throne or find a suitable replacement. When the Emperor was forced to battle Horus on board the Sons of Horus flagship, the Vengeful Spirit, his place on the throne was taken briefly by Malcador the Sigillite. Malcador perished performing this endeavor, and the mortally wounded Emperor was reinstated upon the Throne after his battle with Horus."
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Golden_Throne)

Wait, doesn't this put a bigger hole in the theory than the throne merely breaking beyond repair? Not only did Magnus doom the Imperial Webway project forever, he also made it so that the Emperor needs to sit on the throne permanently and use his psychic powers to stop the demons. And it gave Chaos a foothold on Holy Terra of all places. Again, no Heresy, no psychic warning and a functional Imperial Webway.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Magnus never broke the Golden Throne, I don't know where you got that idea from. What Magnus did was tear a hole in the Imperial Webway, which Daemons proceeded to pour through and subsequently into Terra..

Oh, well then he made it pretty useless since that made travel through the Imperial Webway all but impossible. I just equated that with breaking the Golden Throne since that was its primary purpose but I guess that wouldn't make sense since it's also the beacon for the Astronomican.

And he did break it in the sense that someone now has to sit on it permanently to prevent daemons from flooding through.

"The portal was closed but only the psychic power of the Emperor was enough to keep it that way so he was forced to remain on the Golden Throne or find a suitable replacement. When the Emperor was forced to battle Horus on board the Sons of Horus flagship, the Vengeful Spirit, his place on the throne was taken briefly by Malcador the Sigillite. Malcador perished performing this endeavor, and the mortally wounded Emperor was reinstated upon the Throne after his battle with Horus."
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Golden_Throne)

Wait, doesn't this put a bigger hole in the theory than the throne merely breaking beyond repair? Not only did Magnus doom the Imperial Webway project forever, he also made it so that the Emperor needs to sit on the throne permanently and use his psychic powers to stop the demons. And it gave Chaos a foothold on Holy Terra of all places. Again, no Heresy, no psychic warning and a functional Imperial Webway.

That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.

 Orblivion wrote:
That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.

Oh okay, that's what I was familiar with. I must gotten the "broken beyond repair thing" from this forum actually. There was a Magnus discussion a while back before I started posting

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.

Oh okay, that's what I was familiar with. I must gotten the "broken beyond repair thing" from this forum actually. There was a Magnus discussion a while back before I started posting

I actually prefer the old version, it seems more innocent of Magnus. Rather than the new version of shattering his way through the walls of the webway with the help of a "warp entity", in the old version he used sorcery to just send a message directly to the Emperor, hoping to avoid relaying it through astropaths who might be loyal to Horus.

The only upside of the new version is that it depicts Magnus as not actually delivering his warning, whereas in the old one the Emperor was so mad he completely ignored the fully delivered message.

 Orblivion wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
That was the old fluff. In the old version Magnus didn't break through the webway, but his sorcery did damage the Golden Throne which weakened the psychic shields of the webway enough for the daemons to get in.

Oh okay, that's what I was familiar with. I must gotten the "broken beyond repair thing" from this forum actually. There was a Magnus discussion a while back before I started posting

I actually prefer the old version, it seems more innocent of Magnus. Rather than the new version of shattering his way through the walls of the webway with the help of a "warp entity", in the old version he used sorcery to just send a message directly to the Emperor, hoping to avoid relaying it through astropaths who might be loyal to Horus.

The only upside of the new version is that it depicts Magnus as not actually delivering his warning, whereas in the old one the Emperor was so mad he completely ignored the fully delivered message.

Well, according to False Gods, Magnus did get his message across

 Great White wrote:

 Da Ork Killa wrote:
Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)

Yeah they are pretty awesome. But the whole Curze tortured Vulkan and was killed by that lighting bolt thing was kinda some bs writing

Hmm... Is that out of Vulkan (Lives?) One of the Horus Heresy books? I haven't read that one yet.
I have read a part of a Salamanders book written by Nick Kymes, I beleive, it depicted the birth of Nocturne. That read fairly well from memory.

 Da Ork Killa wrote:

 Great White wrote:

 Da Ork Killa wrote:
Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)

Yeah they are pretty awesome. But the whole Curze tortured Vulkan and was killed by that lighting bolt thing was kinda some bs writing

Hmm... Is that out of Vulkan (Lives?) One of the Horus Heresy books? I haven't read that one yet.
I have read a part of a Salamanders book written by Nick Kymes, I beleive, it depicted the birth of Nocturne. That read fairly well from memory.

Yeah Vulkan Lives is the one

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I was offering up a third possible possibility.

And I am asking how it is a third possibility. The first part, that the Emperor is a semi idiot, is not practically different from arguing that he is a total idiot. The second part, that he overestimated his foresight, is already part of my theory.

So a combination of the two, he got some things right and some things wrong and his foresight let him down on occasion. Your theory suggests that everything was done intentionally the other says that it was all a big cock up. I'm not saying either is correct but that a combination of both could be possible. Nor am I saying that this is correct either. Just putting something else forward. I only said Idiot because idiot was mentioned before. It doesn't necessarily make him an idiot having things go awry. Certain things were beyond his control, if not everything, and he guided events as best he could. But from a readers perspective if he didn't intend the Heresy to go the way it did, then he did make mistakes. Mistakes that made the Primarchs bitter towards him, that were preventable. He wasn't a perfect being. Perhaps it isn't in the middle of what's been put forward here but I am trying to offer one up. I am sure that other people have their own version.

I know the Emperor is fully capable of doing anything for mankind, and it's entirely possible that the Astartes and the Primarchs were expendable once they had achieved their aims. But I like the Primarchs and I like the Emperor. So rather than him being Ming the Merciless or Homer Simpson we have Brain, no, Dick Dastardly, no..... A loveable rogue who's plans don't always go as intended

 Shidank wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
IIRC Lorgar confirmed there was no way to remove the nails. But the Emperor did abduct Angron and basically force him to watch helplessly as all his allies (and presumably at least some of them were his friends) were massacred by his oppressors.

And then he gave him an army of super warriors.

So ...

Well, when you put it like that...

Yeah, but it was Angrons reason for being, so why wouldn't the Emperor give him his Legion. The War Hounds were savage fighters but nothing like the World Eaters and I don't know if the Emperor would have been aware of the route that Angron would take them down. After reading Betrayer I think that the Emperor actually saved Angron on Nuceria, or at least tried to delay the inevitable.

 Great White wrote:

 Da Ork Killa wrote:

Hmm... Is that out of Vulkan (Lives?) One of the Horus Heresy books? I haven't read that one yet.
I have read a part of a Salamanders book written by Nick Kymes, I beleive, it depicted the birth of Nocturne. That read fairly well from memory.

Yeah Vulkan Lives is the one

Isn't it Unremembered Empire where Grammaticus stabs Vulkan with the Fulgurite Spear?

Vulkan Lives is Curze torturing Vulkan, and UE is where the Fulgurite Spear is used. So both

 ImAGeek wrote:
Vulkan Lives is Curze torturing Vulkan, and UE is where the Fulgurite Spear is used. So both

Oh yeah that's right...still don't like it

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Isn't it Unremembered Empire where Grammaticus stabs Vulkan with the Fulgurite Spear?

John Grammaticus committed suicide after the events of Legion, so I don't think that he could have stabbed Vulkan

 dusara217 wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Isn't it Unremembered Empire where Grammaticus stabs Vulkan with the Fulgurite Spear?

John Grammaticus committed suicide after the events of Legion, so I don't think that he could have stabbed Vulkan

Uumm.. nothing to see here .. move along please

John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.

 ImAGeek wrote:
John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.

Except he wasn't a perpetual, the Cabal were the ones bringing him back to life every time he died, it's right in Legion. He even asks the Eldar Autarch not to bring him back right before he jumped out the airlock.

 ImAGeek wrote:
John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.

Quiet you!

Not everyone is all the way in the series yet, so was something I should have possibly spoilered

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.

Except he wasn't a perpetual, the Cabal were the ones bringing him back to life every time he died, it's right in Legion. He even asks the Eldar Autarch not to bring him back right before he jumped out the airlock.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
John Grammaticus is a perpetual. He definitely was in Unremembered Empire, and stabbed Vulkan.

Except he wasn't a perpetual, the Cabal were the ones bringing him back to life every time he died, it's right in Legion. He even asks the Eldar Autarch not to bring him back right before he jumped out the airlock.

Spoiler:

He asks him not to, doesn't mean he doesnt. They still need him. He's in Unremembered Empire. Have you not read it or something?

i'm actually reading it right now

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Your theory suggests that everything was done intentionally

Done intentionally, yes. Worked out exactly as he wanted, no.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Your theory suggests that everything was done intentionally

Done intentionally, yes. Worked out exactly as he wanted, no.

So, we've officially swapped meta.

My original theory was that of the Primarchs', that each of them would have had a place in the post-crusade Imperium. I don't believe the Emperor wanted them to fight one another to cut down on the number of soldiers after the war.

I don't know what you mean, swapped meta.