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 GKTiberius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I think that is largely a fair summary, GKTiberius ...

... EXCEPT (you knew it was coming) you're not taking Magnus's overweening arrogance into account.

Magnus was not only the Emperor's son; he was also the Emperor's subject. He should have obeyed. He did not because he assumed he knew better than the Emperor.

Also, the edict did not forbid Magnus to use psychic powers (which might not even have been possible) but rather disbanded the Libararius and forbade former librarians from using psychic powers.

Full disclosure: I believe the Emperor probably set Magnus up but then again I also believe the Emperor himself planned (some version of) the HH.

I don't think Magnus had many options at that point. he was kept in the dark, and so he couldn't make an informed decision. As far as he knew the emperor went home to enjoy some mimosas and sleep late on Sunday. Also, his entire legion had built themselves around the mastery of psychic powers, so the council effectively told them to completely change their way of life and how they operated.

Full disclosure on my part, I think the emperor was absolutely terrible as a leader and did a really piss poor job of managing the imperium after the unification of Terra. He is the true architect of the Heresy because if he hadn't have had so much pride, hadn't played favorites and just been a competent example for his sons this wouldn't have happened. The entire Imperial Truth situation was FUBAR. His failure to Magnus and the Thousand sons stands chief among his crimes though IMO. Magnus did the best with what he could.

Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.

Personally, I HATE the way that the Emperor was portrayed in the Horus Heresy series. He went from an amazing, genius ultra-psyker to an cockmongering father that acts like a friggin late-era Roman Emperor (crappy leader, selfish, etc.)


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 lcmiracle wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

Aside: i also think the time scale is a little messed up. The emperor supposedly spent the better part of a decade after finding magnus training him correct? personally i have a hard time with a frame of reference for the time scale that the Great crusade is on.

Actually, Magnus was tutored in the way of the warp by the Emperor before he was reunited with the Emperor, at least according to Magnus himself, in "A Thousand Sons".

Me? No, I never lost contact with my fahter. We spoke many times before he ever set foot on Prospero. That is a bond that none of my brothers can claim. (A Thousand Sons. "SIXTEEN")

It wasn't until some time after the reunion of the Emperor and Magnus that the Primarch took command of his legion. During the interim Magnus had spent his time in the great libraries on Terra, and saw Fulgrim and Ferrus competing their crafting skills against each other, etc.. So it'd seem that there is a long time between the recovery of Magnus and Magnus taking control of the XV Legion.

On the other hand, the Emperor had warned Magnus of the dangers of the Warp long before the events in Nikea; regardless of the warning Magnus had always dreamt of mastering the warp. As much as the Emperor is a piss-poor father and a very inconsiderate ruler, Magnus was a rebellious and obstinate son. It is really tragic consider what potential he had.

Anyways Vulkan is for me, he's just nice. It's nice to have a nice dude in a time of superhuman dicking each other.

It's funny, because Sanguinius was nice in pretty much the same way. He wouldn't even let a few hundred humans die in exchange for an easy victory (see: the Nephilim)


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 ImAGeek wrote:
I still maintain that the Emperor was so far removed from humanity at this point that things like emotion just didn't register with him. And he made some questionable fathering choices. I don't see him setting up his sons to fall, I don't see the point, or what he would achieve from that.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Emperor engineered the Horus Heresy so that he would become the God of Order and be able to effectively combat the Ruinous Powers. Unfortunately, no plan lasts once gak hits the fan, and quite a few things went wrong. Now, instead of becoming an insanely powerful God, he is bound to his stupid corpse; feeding off of the souls of millions of Psykers everyday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I think we the fans often make the mistake on this score. We talk about the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons. These terms were absolute formalities in all senses, except perhaps regarding the Emperor and Horus. The Emperor was clearly never a parent at all to at least seventeen of eighteen of the known primarchs. He did however design them. He also chose the time and manner in which he met each of them, which played an important role in things going forward. Finally, with full knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses, he gave each of them a legion of super warriors supported by even larger contingents of armed forces.

Even if we limit this discussion to Angron, any fool could clearly foresee big problems would result.

Now -- what might the Emperor gain from a massive civil war driven by the Chaos Gods? Simply put, a diversion. One has to consider what the Emperor was trying to do at the highest level: namely to ensure that mankind would rule the galaxy. Chaos posed the greatest threat to that goal, especially considering humanity was so dependent upon the Warp. The Emperor needed to misdirect the attention of the Ruinous Powers while he solved this problem. That's my theory at least.

Oh okay I see, so he failed in his plan then? Because he's in the golden throne and makind still uses the warp. I thought you meant he got the outcome he wanted from his plan, my bad. I can see that. I don't know if I want that to be the case, but I can see it.

And I was mostly being flippant with the fatherly choices, I agree that he wasn't really a father, and the Primarchs weren't really sons. Although he didn't choose the time and place he would meet them. A lot of them were found by chance during the Great Crusade.

I know that at least the Lion, Horus, and Sanguinius all considered the Emperor to be their father and worshipped him in the same manner that a son worships his father.

Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)

 Da Ork Killa wrote:
Salamanders has my vote. Mostly because of their logical reasoning: KILL IT WITH FIRE! And because just about everything about them is cool. (see what I did there?)

Yeah they are pretty awesome. But the whole Curze tortured Vulkan and was killed by that lighting bolt thing was kinda some bs writing

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Manchu, I don't understand your theory. I don't see how a civil war would benefit the Emperor's plan to rid humanity of its reliance on the Warp. If anything, the HH caused his plan to fail because Magnus sent his psychic warning. It seems more like the Heresy was an unintended result of his plan, not a part of it (because it fueled the Primarchs' suspicions on what the Emperor was up to).

And wasn't the point of the Webway project to hold the Imperium together? Doesn't make sense to rip up the Imperium you just spent 200 years building as a distraction when one of the first things that happen is the Golden Throne getting messed up.

Again, it was a risky bet that he lost. High stakes and long odds. Had things worked out, the HH would have been an inconsequential blip.

 Manchu wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Manchu, I don't understand your theory. I don't see how a civil war would benefit the Emperor's plan to rid humanity of its reliance on the Warp. If anything, the HH caused his plan to fail because Magnus sent his psychic warning. It seems more like the Heresy was an unintended result of his plan, not a part of it (because it fueled the Primarchs' suspicions on what the Emperor was up to).

And wasn't the point of the Webway project to hold the Imperium together? Doesn't make sense to rip up the Imperium you just spent 200 years building as a distraction when one of the first things that happen is the Golden Throne getting messed up.

Again, it was a risky bet that he lost. High stakes and long odds. Had things worked out, the HH would have been an inconsequential blip.

Yea but I don't get why he would need a distraction in the first place. He made such a big deal out of making Horus Warmaster and returning to Terra that all attention was focused on him. What's the point of the Heresy if everyone's already gossiping about him working on some super secret project on Terra?

The Emperor knew the Ruinous Powers would oppose him. Knowing a conflict was inevitable, he tried to pick the battlefield. Creating the primarchs almost certainly entailed a deal with the Ruinous Powers, hence them being scattered throughout the galaxy. After he gathered them altogether and gave them all armies, the Emperor went back to Terra to work on the Golden Throne. At this point, he needed time and space. An evenly matched civil war among the primarchs could buy him both. Of course, because he was fighting the Chaos Gods, even he could not predict everything that would happen. His plan came close to working but ultimately unraveled and we have the grimdark rather than the noblebright.

 Manchu wrote:
The Emperor knew the Ruinous Powers would oppose him. Knowing a conflict was inevitable, he tried to pick the battlefield. Creating the primarchs almost certainly entailed a deal with the Ruinous Powers, hence them being scattered throughout the galaxy. After he gathered them altogether and gave them all armies, the Emperor went back to Terra to work on the Golden Throne. At this point, he needed time and space. An evenly matched civil war among the primarchs could buy him both. Of course, because he was fighting the Chaos Gods, even he could not predict everything that would happen. His plan came close to working but ultimately unraveled and we have the grimdark rather than the noblebright.

Well it's still a terrible plan considering the Golden Throne got damaged beyond repair even before the Heresy officially began and he couldn't fix it during the next seven years.

Wouldn't the plan have worked better if his Primarchs had stayed loyal for just a bit longer? He could have trained the Primarchs and sent them to fight Chaos instead of neglecting them on purpose if he really needed to distract them that badly.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The Emperor knew the Ruinous Powers would oppose him. Knowing a conflict was inevitable, he tried to pick the battlefield. Creating the primarchs almost certainly entailed a deal with the Ruinous Powers, hence them being scattered throughout the galaxy. After he gathered them altogether and gave them all armies, the Emperor went back to Terra to work on the Golden Throne. At this point, he needed time and space. An evenly matched civil war among the primarchs could buy him both. Of course, because he was fighting the Chaos Gods, even he could not predict everything that would happen. His plan came close to working but ultimately unraveled and we have the grimdark rather than the noblebright.

Well it's still a terrible plan considering the Golden Throne got damaged beyond repair even before the Heresy officially began and he couldn't fix it during the next seven years.

Wouldn't the plan have worked better if his Primarchs had stayed loyal for just a bit longer? He could have trained the Primarchs and sent them to fight Chaos instead of neglecting them on purpose if he really needed to distract them that badly.

If it was his plan, he probably didn't expect Magnus to disobey his edict. I dunno really because the alternative to Manchu's theory is basically that the Emperor was an idiot haha. He didn't handle some of the Primarchs well at all. He definitely made mistakes, pretty big ones.

 ImAGeek wrote:
If it was his plan, he probably didn't expect Magnus to disobey his edict. I dunno really because the alternative to Manchu's theory is basically that the Emperor was an idiot haha. He didn't handle some of the Primarchs well at all. He definitely made mistakes, pretty big ones.

I dunno, if this was his plan then it somehow seems even more idiotic and less believable than simple neglect.

I mean he was a being of such awesome power, running an empire on a galactic scale. Seems easy enough to neglect baby-sitting the Primarchs and fixing their daddy issues when they're operating in theaters across the galaxy over the span of two centuries.

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with Manchu's theory, but it is interesting, and theres nothing huge that contradicts it. It's cool that there's room for different theories at least.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with Manchu's theory, but it is interesting, and theres nothing huge that contradicts it. It's cool that there's room for different theories at least.

Sure, I agree its interesting and at least worth entertaining but I just don't find it terribly convincing. I think it's just us fans trying to somehow make sense of how parental neglect could have caused a galactic civil war.

Probably the most important point I can make is that the Emperor knew with certainty that the Ruinous Powers would confront him. He therefore also knew with certainty that the coming conflict would necessarily be a civil war. This is because, unlike for example orks, Chaos is not at external threat. The threat posed by Chaos is from within. When you know you have to fight and you have a general idea of what kind of fight it will be, the sensible thing to do is trying to fight on your own terms. I believe that is why he created the Primarchs.

Under my theory, the Emperor's plan failed. But you shouldn't for that reason assume it was a terrible plan. You need to keep in mind that Horus was defeated at Terra. And how much more soundly would he have been defeated if Leman Russ and Roboute Guilliman had been present? But that is yet another mistake fans make: they totally take for granted the absolute genius Horus exhibited by keeping the SW and UM away from Terra when he struck. Even so, he was defeated. But it cost the Emperor a mortal wound and given Magnus had disastrously breached the palace wards, the only thing for it was the Emperor's enthronement.

It was a damn close thing and ultimately tragic for mankind. The Emperor took a huge gamble but let's keep in mind that he had to do it. Chaos would have come for him and all humanity sooner or later. The Emperor stood up to Chaos and, all things considered, very nearly won.

Hmm but just a tiny bit later and Humanity wouldn't need to use the Warp for space travel. Still seems like a huge risk to take when he wasn't finished building his empire yet. And he didn't want to believe the warnings of the Heresy at first. If this was his plan the entire time, then how could something like the Dropsite Massacre have happened? The legions he sent were all "problem" legions. I mean, he sent the Night Lords of all people to fight the Heresy. And the Word Bearers, whom he publicly shamed.

But fair enough, he couldn't foresee all the issues with Chaos and all that. But still, terrible choice of legions to send for his master plan.

You seem to be missing my point -- I'm saying the Emperor wanted the SM legions to duke it out. That was the only way he would have the time to finish the human webway.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Hmm but just a tiny bit later and Humanity wouldn't need to use the Warp for space travel. Still seems like a huge risk to take when he wasn't finished building his empire yet. And he didn't want to believe the warnings of the Heresy at first. If this was his plan the entire time, then how could something like the Dropsite Massacre have happened? The legions he sent were all "problem" legions. I mean, he sent the Night Lords of all people to fight the Heresy. And the Word Bearers, whom he publicly shamed.

But fair enough, he couldn't foresee all the issues with Chaos and all that. But still, terrible choice of legions to send for his master plan.

In this light, the Emperor of Mankind looks a bit like a dumbass.

That's what I keep saying Shidank: either (a) the Emperor is a fool or (b) the Emperor foresaw and planned for some version of the HH.

 Manchu wrote:
That's what I keep saying Shidank: either (a) the Emperor is a fool or (b) the Emperor foresaw and planned for some version of the HH.

Going to have to lean on fool then

 Manchu wrote:
That's what I keep saying Shidank: either (a) the Emperor is a fool or (b) the Emperor foresaw and planned for some version of the HH.

But to me neither version makes the Emperor look any smarter. Option a) is he failed to foresee anything of the kind so he's a blind fool and option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion.

If anything option b makes him look like an even bigger fool because he knew what was coming and yet messed up it up spectacularly. He basically couldn't have done anything to be worse prepared for what happened.

 Shidank wrote:
Going to have to lean on fool then

That is totally implausible.

The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.

Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.

It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion

Wow, you are really not getting this. I am saying the Emperor knew they were disloyal, maybe even engineered their disloyalty, and intentionally sent them for the very purposes of creating a long, drawn-out civil war away from Terra.

I really like the Luna Wolves, but Night Lords will always be my #1! I don't really know much about most of the loyalist legions but I like Raven Guard. I really need to read more of HH. I have never been a fan of Death Guard, but nurgle hate has partial blame on that one.

In the old Bill King story the Emperor reflects at the Siege of Terra

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
That's what I keep saying Shidank: either (a) the Emperor is a fool or (b) the Emperor foresaw and planned for some version of the HH.

But to me neither version makes the Emperor look any smarter. Option a) is he failed to foresee anything of the kind so he's a blind fool and option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion.

If anything option b makes him look like an even bigger fool because he knew what was coming and yet messed up it up spectacularly. He basically couldn't have done anything to be worse prepared for what happened.

Exalted for clarity.

If there seemed to be any gain at all in ten thousand years of Grimdark, I would say the Emperor(or perhaps, Emprah in this instance) was one cunning god-man. Since there seems to be no justification for this galactic failure, we simply have to see him as a being just as fallible as his sons.


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 Manchu wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Going to have to lean on fool then

That is totally implausible.

The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.

Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.

It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion

Wow, you are really not getting this. I am saying the Emperor knew they were disloyal, maybe even engineered their disloyalty, and intentionally sent them for the very purposes of creating a long, drawn-out civil war away from Terra.

I can't get behind the idea of an AL plotline where the Emperor engineered the HH. It doesn't serve any purpose but to roll back on every advance made in the Great Crusade. If he wanted a mountain of failure, why not just have the Thunder Warriors go into space and die of spontaneous combustion instead of sending out these ageless Space Marines?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
In the old Bill King story the Emperor reflects at the Siege of Terra

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

Fascinating stuff! The notion that there is a convergence point beyond which the Emperor cannot see lines up exactly with what we know about the limitations on Tzeentch. In effect, neither side could know the outcome of the HH. But both sides had a desperate interest in the outcome. Neither won, but of course Chaos didn't require victory -- only that the Emperor also not win.

 Shidank wrote:
It doesn't serve any purpose but to roll back on every advance made in the Great Crusade.

 Manchu wrote:
You seem to be missing my point -- I'm saying the Emperor wanted the SM legions to duke it out. That was the only way he would have the time to finish the human webway.

Maybe and why he sent Russ to get Magnus, because he needed him for the Astronomicon/Golden Throne.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
In the old Bill King story the Emperor reflects at the Siege of Terra

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

Fascinating stuff! The notion that there is a convergence point beyond which the Emperor cannot see lines up exactly with what we know about the limitations on Tzeentch. In effect, neither side could know the outcome of the HH. But both sides had a desperate interest in the outcome. Neither won, but of course Chaos didn't require victory -- only that the Emperor also not win.

 Shidank wrote:
It doesn't serve any purpose but to roll back on every advance made in the Great Crusade.

 Manchu wrote:
You seem to be missing my point -- I'm saying the Emperor wanted the SM legions to duke it out. That was the only way he would have the time to finish the human webway.

I take it you intended the quote to be your reply? It wasn't, so I'll expound.

The webway project did not require a space marine battle. The two are unrelated. The timing of the heresy was not an accident, it was specifically to STOP the webway. Why would the Emperor, a god-like genius of a being, not realize this and contribute to the growing heresy?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Maybe and why he sent Russ to get Magnus, because he needed him for the Astronomicon/Golden Throne.

I think that is absolutely correct. The Emperor needed Magnus on his side, Russ was predisposed to think the Emperor wanted Magnus punished, and Horus brilliantly intercepted Russ and convinced him that XV Legion should be wiped out knowing that Magnus would believe this when he learned the Emperor sent Russ, of all primarchs, to Prospero. Even so, at the precipice of disaster, Russ asked Magnus to come out with his hands up. Another convergence point ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:
The webway project did not require a space marine battle. The two are unrelated.

As explained above -- the battle was coming no matter what. The Emperor wanted to be in charge of when and where it happened and, as much as possible, what the consequences would be. He needed it to be (a) far away from Terra and (b) to stay away from Terra as long as possible.

 Manchu wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Going to have to lean on fool then

That is totally implausible.

The Emperor was a genius in every sense of the word.

Also - regarding the point that some of the primarchs have overt psychological disorders - keep in mind these were not merely the product of neglect. The Emperor seems to have actively caused some of them. Remember that he chose when and how to meet up with the primarchs. The way he chose to meet Angron, Mortarion, and Curze traumatized them. He also seemingly withheld information about Chaos from Magnus and did nothing to prevent Magnus from dealing with Tzeentch to save XV Legion. He humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion and had the UM destroy one of his greatest accomplishments.

It is pretty clear that the Emperor was intentionally fething with some of his sons.

He stepped in for Angron and Mortarion because they were about to die, not because he wanted to intentionally traumatize them. I just don't see any proof of that. And Curze had his crazy visions the moment he saw the Emperor. The Emperor didn't do anything particularly interesting other than making a grand entrance and literally blinding the natives with his sparkly magnificence.

He withheld knowledge of Chaos from Magnus to shield and protect him, not to make him resent him. Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch behind the Emperor's back. The whole Council of Nikeaa thing was to prevent more tampering with the Warp.

He humiliated Lorgar because what the Word Bearers were doing went against everything the Imperial Truth stood for. The problem was the way he handled it. He probably just wanted to discipline Lorgar and hoped they would stop with their foolishness. I think the Index Astartes says as much. The Emperor couldn't have foreseen Lorgar would run off to the Chaos Gods because he needed to worship something that badly.

I really do think it's just neglect and the Emperor focusing on the bigger picture, not bothering to take the time with issues he considered to be minor. It's also just arrogance.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
option b) is he saw it coming and yet didn't bother to check which of his subjects were actually loyal, especially the ones he was sending to crush the rebellion

 Manchu wrote:
Wow, you are really not getting this. I am saying the Emperor knew they were disloyal, maybe even engineered their disloyalty, and intentionally sent them for the very purposes of creating a long, drawn-out civil war away from Terra.

Why lose three loyal legions in the process? I just don't see the necessity of it. Why not bother to check their loyalty, let the traitor legions join up, then destroy them? Or better yet, check their loyalty the moment he hears the stirrings of rebellion and destroy them piecemeal.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Maybe and why he sent Russ to get Magnus, because he needed him for the Astronomicon/Golden Throne.

I think that is absolutely correct. The Emperor needed Magnus on his side, Russ was predisposed to think the Emperor wanted Magnus punished, and Horus brilliantly intercepted Russ and convinced him that XV Legion should be wiped out knowing that Magnus would believe this when he learned the Emperor sent Russ, of all primarchs, to Prospero. Even so, at the precipice of disaster, Russ asked Magnus to come out with his hands up. Another convergence point ...

He sent Russ to get Magnus because Magnus already messed up the Golden Throne. Why send Russ to punish Magnus for breaking the Golden Throne (disobeying the Council of Nikeaa too of course) so he could get Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne? Makes absolutely no sense.

 Shidank wrote:
Exalted for clarity.

If there seemed to be any gain at all in ten thousand years of Grimdark, I would say the Emperor(or perhaps, Emprah in this instance) was one cunning god-man. Since there seems to be no justification for this galactic failure, we simply have to see him as a being just as fallible as his sons.

Thanks! My first exalt ever

And wow that was a friggin huge post, I hope some of you actually bother to read it!

I guess I can give it one more try.

A civil war was going to happen no matter what, thanks to Chaos. The Emperor always knew this. He therefore attempted to control what that war would be like. He engineered all the major players, the primarchs, and even gave them the weapons to fight each other. He was NOT trying to prevent the war.

The objection "well why didn't the Emperor do X, Y, and Z to prevent the heresy/defeat the heretics" is irrelevant because that was not his goal.

The Emperor was not at all blind to the failings in some of the primarchs. Consider that he gave them massive armies anyway and in some cases even antagonized their personality disorders.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

He sent Russ to get Magnus because Magnus already messed up the Golden Throne. Why send Russ to punish Magnus for breaking the Golden Throne (disobeying the Council of Nikeaa too of course) so he could get Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne? Makes absolutely no sense.

Indeed, but he needed to try and fix the damage Magnus had done and couldn't divert himself between the two. He needed Magnus to sit on the throne whilst he did what he did.

I don't entirely buy Manchus brainfoo but it's an interesting take on it.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't entirely buy Manchus brainfoo but it's an interesting take on it.

I worked out my theory because the only other option I can see is that the Emperor is a complete idiot. And that does not fit with anything ever published about him. If someone has a third possibility (other than just saying "the authors are bad and don't know what they're doing") I'd be glad to consider it.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
He needed Magnus to sit on the throne whilst he did what he did.

I think this is all but a given, seeing how Malcador ended up having to do it.