Last game I blew up my friends land raider with a combi melta from a LSS on turn 1. It's so frustrating and infuriating when this happens to you on the TT - it even makes you feel bad inside when you blow one up - like "it shouldn't have been that easy." Fact of the matter is - it is that easy. For a 260ish point tank - being 1 shot should basically be out of the question IMO.

To fix this I suggest land raiders have the super heavy rule - I'm not sure of the points that should be required for this change but I think something around 295 sounds fair considering the are very much not worth their points at 250. They already have POTMS which is halfway to super heavy shooting. The rest is really just a defensive upgrade. Obviously ignoring the damage table is a very powerful upgrade but should not land raiders be very powerful? Lets be realistic here - its only 4 HP and can still lose 75% of it's hull points on a single melta and it has no ion shields.

What you guys think?

Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

Make all lascannon heavy 2

I like the idea of keeping them at 4 hp and giving them invincible behemoth. It's still possible to one shot one with an ap1 or ap2 weapon, just much rarer. And of course, a half squad of sternguard combi meltas or similar vehicle wrecking crews are still going to ice the thing, with just a little worse odds.

Martel732 wrote:
Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

I rather like the fact that it's tough and has guns. Though I would be totally for a cheaper version of the LR which had no sponsons. Maybe like 120 points and comes stock with TL HB and gets upgrades like a razorback and can still take MM. It would be real cool. Also doing double duty is easy when you aren't hindered by moving all the time because you have super heavy rules.


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niv-mizzet wrote:
I like the idea of keeping them at 4 hp and giving them invincible behemoth. It's still possible to one shot one with an ap1 or ap2 weapon, just much rarer. And of course, a half squad of sternguard combi meltas or similar vehicle wrecking crews are still going to ice the thing, with just a little worse odds.

Exactly - 5 meltas is still going to bring it down most of the time - just 1 melta is going to be a long shot to do significant damage.


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 Formosa wrote:
Make all lascannon heavy 2

Well Godhammer patter LR do have 4 total las cannons

Take the land raider Achilles for 300 points. Now your immune to melta and lance and only insta die on from ap1 on a 6.

Throw in a techmarine, iron hands chapter tactics and schism of mars if you still don't think it survives long enough.

Finally, beat yourself in the face for making it too good to play against, and realize no one wants to face unkillable land raiders.

...... Or invincible behemoth works too.

Ceramite plating for all variants - it's fluffy and not stupid broken, but it makes them much tougher against your usual melta shenanigans.

Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

IDK...making it immune to melta would probably be worse than superheavy (indestructible behemoth) - meltas are supposed to be good at killing tanks - I don't want to take that away from them.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

I'm not familiar with the stats on the spartan. Whats it got over the standard LR? just 2 more LC? Is it tougher? points?

 Xenomancers wrote:
IDK...making it immune to melta would probably be worse than superheavy (indestructible behemoth) - meltas are supposed to be good at killing tanks - I don't want to take that away from them.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

I'm not familiar with the stats on the spartan. Whats it got over the standard LR? just 2 more LC? Is it tougher? points?

Five hull points, twenty-model transport, access to Armoured Ceramite. The Spartan is what the basic Godhammer Land Raider wants to be but it's better at it.

I support the notion that land raiders shouldn't be melta-proof. I still think of land raiders as the main reason to take meltas despite how rarely I see them. don't want to give people yet another reason to spam plasma, do we?

Honestly, with the current meta in mind, I think you could get away with simply reducing a land raider's cost a bit. Making it a more appealing transport (by making it cheaper) encourages people to use more melta/las and less plasma, and losing said land raider is less of a frustration if it isn't such a huge investment.

You shouldn't be punished for taking a land raider, but you also shouldn't punish your opponent for not taking a melta in every squad

I always wondered why it is 250pts, other than its always been that much I cant understand it, 200pts maybe 220 with machine spirit makes more sense to me

 Formosa wrote:
I always wondered why it is 250pts, other than its always been that much I cant understand it, 200pts maybe 220 with machine spirit makes more sense to me

The high cost made more sense in 5th edition where they could be tricky to take down even with melta. Since hull points became a thing (and haywire became more prevalent), their price does seem a bit much. I'd argue that flyers are far more durable most of the time than land raiders.

Take what DA get, venerable for them, but make it free for all LRs.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

This. The spartan is so much better than the base land raider it's not funny. Comes with extra armour, double the lascannon fire, double the transport capacity, and the ability to take armored ceramite for 45 points over a base land raider. It's just so good

The problem is the whole vehicle damage chart. One shot kills on a 250 point unit are lame. Vehicles need to merge with or become more like MCs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Last game I blew up my friends land raider with a combi melta from a LSS on turn 1. It's so frustrating and infuriating when this happens to you on the TT - it even makes you feel bad inside when you blow one up - like "it shouldn't have been that easy." Fact of the matter is - it is that easy. For a 260ish point tank - being 1 shot should basically be out of the question IMO.

To fix this I suggest land raiders have the super heavy rule - I'm not sure of the points that should be required for this change but I think something around 295 sounds fair considering the are very much not worth their points at 250. They already have POTMS which is halfway to super heavy shooting. The rest is really just a defensive upgrade. Obviously ignoring the damage table is a very powerful upgrade but should not land raiders be very powerful? Lets be realistic here - its only 4 HP and can still lose 75% of it's hull points on a single melta and it has no ion shields.

What you guys think?

I think it's fine And doesn't need any changes. I'm comparing this to the ork mork/gorkanaut. Our vehicles are relatively the same price. The morkanaut 310 pts when buffed and can still experience the same 1 shot kill. We have less reliable shooting less transport capacity and don't count as an assault vehicle. The only difference is that we can assault and even then I get that 1 S 10 ap2 hit from a lucky smash attack that explodes me.

With the land raiders shooting and transport capabilities it doesn't need any tweaking.

Superheavies come with their own plethora of things like uber-tankshocking, interaction with difterrain, catastrophic damage explosions, possibility of transporting multiple units...not telling about the rarity with which you see an actual av14 superheavy.

It's reasonable cost would clock around 400 pt. And by that point, you're still vulnerable to melta.

That's the problem all expensive vehicles face. Damage table is becoming more and more punishing the more you invest into your vehicle. Your landraider has ~ same chances of surviving being hit with a melta as a predator which is 2 times cheaper and is not carrying expensive stuff inside that'd get put out of the game by a transport's death/immobilisation.

But making it completely immune to a damage table with invincible behemoth won't be good without increasing it's points.

Why not give it some protection against penetrating hits? Something like a stronger ramshackle/weaker serp shield.

You can downgrade a penetrating hit to a glance on a 5+. Seems good enough for me without a point increase to a current model. Would like to see it on Naughts too.

I wouldn't give them armoured ceramite, but I do think it would work if you did something like give LR -1 on the vehicle damage chart (so AP2 couldn't explode them, and AP1 would require a 6), or something like what koooaei suggested, letting you downgrade a pen to a glance. Or maybe a lesser version of IB, where instead of an explodes result doing d3 hull points, it just dies straight up 3 points of damage (so two explodes results would still always destroy it).

Personally, I don't think buffing the Land Raider against explosions a bit should cost more points. The whole point is that it is far too squishy for how much it costs.

 koooaei wrote:
Superheavies come with their own plethora of things like uber-tankshocking, interaction with difterrain, catastrophic damage explosions, possibility of transporting multiple units...not telling about the rarity with which you see an actual av14 superheavy.

It's reasonable cost would clock around 400 pt. And by that point, you're still vulnerable to melta.

That's the problem all expensive vehicles face. Damage table is becoming more and more punishing the more you invest into your vehicle. Your landraider has ~ same chances of surviving being hit with a melta as a predator which is 2 times cheaper and is not carrying expensive stuff inside that'd get put out of the game by a transport's death/immobilisation.

But making it completely immune to a damage table with invincible behemoth won't be good without increasing it's points.

Why not give it some protection against penetrating hits? Something like a stronger ramshackle/weaker serp shield.

You can downgrade a penetrating hit to a glance on a 5+. Seems good enough for me without a point increase to a current model. Would like to see it on Naughts too.

Good ideas here^ maybe IB is too much for a LR. 5+ reduce pen is probably too weak though - maybe 4+ to turn pen to glance.

Seems to me that the problem is the meta. Every army needs to stack threats to AV13/14, so the reasonable AV14s (LRs) feel like paper. People need to stack that stuff thanks to ubiquitous Knights, and t6 2+s. So nothing less means much.

When everyone is kitted for popping AV13/14 spam, unless it were totally broken, a reasonable AV14 is gonna feel like it needs a buff. But the more appropriate changes are probably along these lines:

1) Nerf the things that are unreasonably survivable. Knights (Imperial, Dread, and Wraith, although Tide fits this category) getting nerfed would do great things for this game. With those requiring such an absurd amount of firepower, and being so hard to kill, while doing so much damage, makes them a cornerstone of the meta. As a cornerstone, all reasonable lists need to build to handle them. And most solutions to them torch Land Raiders, which are quite reasonable.

2) Perhaps have Damage Table scale with remaining HP? I had posted an option based on armor save modifiers, but there are other options. Perhaps a 'HP Save', which downgrades Pens to Glances, at 7-HP? So LRs would start with a 4+, most would be a 5+, and the really light ones at 6+? Alternately, what about pen table effect =(6 + d6 -HP - AP)? First melta pen on most vehicles would explodes on a 5+, LRs on a 6+, light vehicles on a 4+, and open topped on a 3+? Plasma/lascannon would be unable to on its first pen, 6+ on its last pen? And a ML would be able to blow up a Rhino with 1HP remaining on a 5+, but not be able to at all when it has all 3 remaining? Pen effects would scale very closely with both AP and HP in a very fluid yet fitting way. After all, a Singing Spear shouldn't be so much more deadly to vehicles than a Krak missile. (AP- would be a 7, results 0 and under would be a glance)

3) Firepower escalation is causing problems. Things like Grav Bikers are necessary because Knights. But that allows taking lots of Grav for few points, and ignore all of gravs drawbacks.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

This. The spartan is so much better than the base land raider it's not funny. Comes with extra armour, double the lascannon fire, double the transport capacity, and the ability to take armored ceramite for 45 points over a base land raider. It's just so good

Seconding this. Also power of the machine spirit for the CSM one would be nice.

Bharring wrote:
Seems to me that the problem is the meta. Every army needs to stack threats to AV13/14, so the reasonable AV14s (LRs) feel like paper. People need to stack that stuff thanks to ubiquitous Knights, and t6 2+s. So nothing less means much.

When everyone is kitted for popping AV13/14 spam, unless it were totally broken, a reasonable AV14 is gonna feel like it needs a buff. But the more appropriate changes are probably along these lines:

1) Nerf the things that are unreasonably survivable. Knights (Imperial, Dread, and Wraith, although Tide fits this category) getting nerfed would do great things for this game. With those requiring such an absurd amount of firepower, and being so hard to kill, while doing so much damage, makes them a cornerstone of the meta. As a cornerstone, all reasonable lists need to build to handle them. And most solutions to them torch Land Raiders, which are quite reasonable.

2) Perhaps have Damage Table scale with remaining HP? I had posted an option based on armor save modifiers, but there are other options. Perhaps a 'HP Save', which downgrades Pens to Glances, at 7-HP? So LRs would start with a 4+, most would be a 5+, and the really light ones at 6+? Alternately, what about pen table effect =(6 + d6 -HP - AP)? First melta pen on most vehicles would explodes on a 5+, LRs on a 6+, light vehicles on a 4+, and open topped on a 3+? Plasma/lascannon would be unable to on its first pen, 6+ on its last pen? And a ML would be able to blow up a Rhino with 1HP remaining on a 5+, but not be able to at all when it has all 3 remaining? Pen effects would scale very closely with both AP and HP in a very fluid yet fitting way. After all, a Singing Spear shouldn't be so much more deadly to vehicles than a Krak missile. (AP- would be a 7, results 0 and under would be a glance)

3) Firepower escalation is causing problems. Things like Grav Bikers are necessary because Knights. But that allows taking lots of Grav for few points, and ignore all of gravs drawbacks.

Honestly, I agree with you 99.9%, but I think there would be a lot more b'awww from the meta if you buffed the LR than did anything to the so wonderfully balance IK. I know I don't want to have to listen to all people at my local who have like 3 Knights.

it got taken out by a hard counter? I don't see anything wrong with it, other than it being slightly overcosted.

 Brennonjw wrote:
it got taken out by a hard counter? I don't see anything wrong with it, other than it being slightly overcosted.

Even when it doesn't get taken out, it doesn't DO anything. It's 250 pts that I can ignore if I'm facing one. I usually thank my opponent for bringing them. The thing is going to taxi some CC squad across the board, it's going to get out, squish a unit of my choosing, and then that CC unit will get shot to death on my turn, and I go back to ignoring the land raider. It's 250 pts of complete fail.

To be fair, I wouldn't call it 'easy' to blow up a Land Raider, especially if you only used a single combi melta. If you send several after it, then yes, it could be considered 'easy' due to your odds increasing.

Yes, you get better odds of getting a pen with Melta, but you still often need a 6 to even get it to explode. Still pretty small odds. When it happens, it feels either great or poopy, depending on how early in the game it is/the competitive level setting you're playing.

I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Same here. They are big, durable, and expensive to field. As an Ork player, they are not that super scary. Yes, their weaponry will mince most of my vehicles, but so will pretty much anything in their army. But they devote an entire tank to kill just one or two things that cost me exponentially less points and I have multiples in play. *shrug* It's got dudes inside? So what? I got too many dudes to care. XD

Melevolence wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Same here. They are big, durable, and expensive to field. As an Ork player, they are not that super scary. Yes, their weaponry will mince most of my vehicles, but so will pretty much anything in their army. But they devote an entire tank to kill just one or two things that cost me exponentially less points and I have multiples in play. *shrug* It's got dudes inside? So what? I got too many dudes to care. XD

My favorite troll move is to flat out an empty BA Rhino directly in the path of the thing.

Martel732 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Same here. They are big, durable, and expensive to field. As an Ork player, they are not that super scary. Yes, their weaponry will mince most of my vehicles, but so will pretty much anything in their army. But they devote an entire tank to kill just one or two things that cost me exponentially less points and I have multiples in play. *shrug* It's got dudes inside? So what? I got too many dudes to care. XD

My favorite troll move is to flat out an empty BA Rhino directly in the path of the thing.

I just use Trukks to block it off. And if it proves to be annoying, the Nobz inside will just cut it open and be done with it. But yeah, just out run it, or have it waste it's cannons on Boyz or cheap, paper transports that dropped off their cargo.

It actually takes a while to kill a Rhino with a single lascannon shot per turn.

If you had a land raider with no guns and a 20 transport capacity for 120 I might actually start fielding hammernator termies again. What would it be for 10 termies in these? 570 points? Or you could just field 5 for 345. Not a bad deal.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
If you had a land raider with no guns and a 20 transport capacity for 120 I might actually start fielding hammernator termies again. What would it be for 10 termies in these? 570 points? Or you could just field 5 for 345. Not a bad deal.

As an Ork player, I'd be annoyed Marines could get a no gun, 14/14/14 transport for 120 points when my Battle Wagon is a no gun transport that's 14/12/10 for 110 points. While Open Topped might be a bonus for the BW, it still makes it super vulnerable. :( A land raider for that cheap with a battle wagon transport capacity would be a slap to everyone else and another 'marines need even better stuff' syndrome.

Seriously, what Landraider is only firing a single Lascannon a turn?

Its the 8000lb gorilla. Back off and slow it down works, but lets the LR player dictate the engagement. Outside large Melta drops - where killing 250points isn't a huge return on investment - a LR probably won't die when shot at with a melta or two. Takes more. And they need to be in range.

In a mech heavy list, you've got 2x LC (one snapfiring) or a TL Assault Cannon ripping a light vehicle, where a POTMS MM melts a heavy tank. While moving 6". Or 12, snapfire everything but the MM.

Against infantry mixes, those flamers or hurricane bolters do some damage. Heavy Bolters are a threat then, too.

Its not 250 points worth of glass cannon shooting. You're paying for one of the most durable tanks (pre-LOW) in the game (No, the Serpent isn't more durable). With a smattering of weapons a TAC list can't ignore if it gets close.

Its usually popped the turn it gets in range, because if its not, its going to destroy stuff. So the opponent must do what he can to pop it, or yield ground. Either way, you've forced his hand.

No, I'm not saying a Land Raider is always the answer. I'm just saying that, if it weren't for the current meta, the Land Raider would be quite the answer when used right in some games, just like any other balanced piece.

Orks, and probably Nids, have the chaff to throw in its way. Not every army has that, or 35pt transports in spades. But that is one reasonable tactic for stalling it.

Its job isn't -and shouldnt be - gunlining. It also shouldnt be nih-immune to a thousand points of anti-AV14. It will usually survive a 3-melts podded squad. It shouldn't survive a 10-melts podded squad.

It also shouldn't be a scalpel. Its the final word of handling what ever is in its way. So it should have both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weapons fluff-wise. It, like a lot of Marine stuff, is decent at a lot of things, and so pays for it. Instead of whining that it can't put out more lascannon shots than equal points of Dev squads, try not ignoring its non-lascannon weapons. Heck, you dont even need to shoot them for them to be a threat.

The LR has a lot going for it. A little overcosted, sure. But its hard counter also hard counters the current cornerstones of the meta, so until those are fixed, people will be prepared for it. Just making it OP just exascorbates the problem.

Melevolence wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
If you had a land raider with no guns and a 20 transport capacity for 120 I might actually start fielding hammernator termies again. What would it be for 10 termies in these? 570 points? Or you could just field 5 for 345. Not a bad deal.

As an Ork player, I'd be annoyed Marines could get a no gun, 14/14/14 transport for 120 points when my Battle Wagon is a no gun transport that's 14/12/10 for 110 points. While Open Topped might be a bonus for the BW, it still makes it super vulnerable. :( A land raider for that cheap with a battle wagon transport capacity would be a slap to everyone else and another 'marines need even better stuff' syndrome.

I guessed at 120. Maybe 140 is the real price. Not sure, really. But putting guns on this thing is STUPID.


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Bharring wrote:
Seriously, what Landraider is only firing a single Lascannon a turn?

Its the 8000lb gorilla. Back off and slow it down works, but lets the LR player dictate the engagement. Outside large Melta drops - where killing 250points isn't a huge return on investment - a LR probably won't die when shot at with a melta or two. Takes more. And they need to be in range.

In a mech heavy list, you've got 2x LC (one snapfiring) or a TL Assault Cannon ripping a light vehicle, where a POTMS MM melts a heavy tank. While moving 6". Or 12, snapfire everything but the MM.

Against infantry mixes, those flamers or hurricane bolters do some damage. Heavy Bolters are a threat then, too.

Its not 250 points worth of glass cannon shooting. You're paying for one of the most durable tanks (pre-LOW) in the game (No, the Serpent isn't more durable). With a smattering of weapons a TAC list can't ignore if it gets close.

Its usually popped the turn it gets in range, because if its not, its going to destroy stuff. So the opponent must do what he can to pop it, or yield ground. Either way, you've forced his hand.

No, I'm not saying a Land Raider is always the answer. I'm just saying that, if it weren't for the current meta, the Land Raider would be quite the answer when used right in some games, just like any other balanced piece.

Orks, and probably Nids, have the chaff to throw in its way. Not every army has that, or 35pt transports in spades. But that is one reasonable tactic for stalling it.

Its job isn't -and shouldnt be - gunlining. It also shouldnt be nih-immune to a thousand points of anti-AV14. It will usually survive a 3-melts podded squad. It shouldn't survive a 10-melts podded squad.

It also shouldn't be a scalpel. Its the final word of handling what ever is in its way. So it should have both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weapons fluff-wise. It, like a lot of Marine stuff, is decent at a lot of things, and so pays for it. Instead of whining that it can't put out more lascannon shots than equal points of Dev squads, try not ignoring its non-lascannon weapons. Heck, you dont even need to shoot them for them to be a threat.

The LR has a lot going for it. A little overcosted, sure. But its hard counter also hard counters the current cornerstones of the meta, so until those are fixed, people will be prepared for it. Just making it OP just exascorbates the problem.

I understand your point, but its firepower is terrible for its price. It also constantly has to compromise between movement and shooting. Marines can't afford to pay 250 pts for some snap shot heavy weapons. Marines already have a plethora of firepower problems. I find these things consistently ignorable, and that's not acceptable for a 250 pt model.

Why have a relic of the chapter that is supposed to be the be-all end-all intended to duke it out with any threat they could encounter while driving through a siege line and not put any weapons on it? I could see IG doing something like that, but not Marines. This isn't some do-the-job transport for an engagement or two, these are the pinnicle of SM armor, each one a priceless relic!

With no guns, it would still be around 200 points. Nothing short of s8 can even glance it, even in melee. And 4 HP is a lot.


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And choices are good. It shouldn't cost as much as something that can do both just as well, but it should certainly cost more than something that can only do one just as well. Choices like this - move more or shoot more - are critical to playing SM. Unless you bikespam, because they get to do both. For fewer points. But Tacs, Devs, and even ASMs (jetpack to move or charge?) all have to make tradeoffs. And that's what I love about my SMs.

I'm going to get real here. Sometimes I use a god hammer LR. I take it with an IK and 3 dreadknights and it does work. It works because who can spare sucide meltas to shoot a LR when there is a knight in front of it. Problem is the only way I can get the thing to survive is to put titans on the board to draw fire from it. Offensively I think the god hammer is perfect but defensively - it might as well be a predator vs a melta gun and it's mainly the defense you are paying for + the assault transport factor. Best suggestion ive seen so far is to give LR a serpent shield type ability vs pens. I think a 4+ would be more realistic than 2+ obviously and it doesn't need to have a 7 shot str 7 ignore cover 60 inch gun to go with it, or the ability to gain 3+ cover on demand...is that too much to ask?

Bharring wrote:
Why have a relic of the chapter that is supposed to be the be-all end-all intended to duke it out with any threat they could encounter while driving through a siege line and not put any weapons on it? I could see IG doing something like that, but not Marines. This isn't some do-the-job transport for an engagement or two, these are the pinnicle of SM armor, each one a priceless relic!

With no guns, it would still be around 200 points. Nothing short of s8 can even glance it, even in melee. And 4 HP is a lot.


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And choices are good. It shouldn't cost as much as something that can do both just as well, but it should certainly cost more than something that can only do one just as well. Choices like this - move more or shoot more - are critical to playing SM. Unless you bikespam, because they get to do both. For fewer points. But Tacs, Devs, and even ASMs (jetpack to move or charge?) all have to make tradeoffs. And that's what I love about my SMs.

Except that the land raider is not worth firepower for the price. It's a false choice in the case of the land raider. Why would I not drive my CC hammer to its target asap? Every turn they spend in the thing is a waste of their points. There is no way an AV 14 box with no guns costs 200 pts, because of how poor assault is in the game now.

Also, I don't care about it being a relic of the chapter. Nothing in 40K makes any sense, anyway. The LR is a stupid WW I tank. We quit using this concept by the 1930s. We also quit using sponson guns. The LR is terrible in the game, and that's what matters to me. If cutting it's price by a huge amount by taking the guns off makes it playable, that's what I care about.

As it stands now, the LR can't duke it out with anything in an efficient manner.

"And that's what I love about my SMs."

It's all fun and games until you face an efficient list.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm going to get real here. Sometimes I use a god hammer LR. I take it with an IK and 3 dreadknights and it does work. It works because who can spare sucide meltas to shoot a LR when there is a knight in front of it. Problem is the only way I can get the thing to survive is to put titans on the board to draw fire from it. Offensively I think the god hammer is perfect but defensively - it might as well be a predator vs a melta gun and it's mainly the defense you are paying for + the assault transport factor. Best suggestion ive seen so far is to give LR a serpent shield type ability vs pens. I think a 4+ would be more realistic than 2+ obviously and it doesn't need to have a 7 shot str 7 ignore cover 60 inch gun to go with it, or the ability to gain 3+ cover on demand...is that too much to ask?

I ignore them w/o knights on the table. What is it going to do? Shoot a gun at me once in a while? After playing WS over and over, land raiders are a walk in the park. They might as well have zero guns.

Personally, making a landraider a super heavy is a bad idea. Besides getting the Invincible Behemoth special rule, you would also be giving it the ability to thunder blitz and tank shock at the same time. I think giving the land raider the ability to by cernite plating would be nice. Also giving it a dozer blade would be helpful as well. Out side of that I would leave it the way it is. For the point cost you have suggest, why not take a super heavy tank from IG. You would get the same effect.

As I'm sure others have pointed out, if you make it too good people will not want to play you.

I completely forgot that this thing can't take a dozer blade. It's an immobilization waiting to happen.

So, to paraphrase, you want an IG army called space smurfs?

Martel732 wrote:
I completely forgot that this thing can't take a dozer blade. It's an immobilization waiting to happen.

Which is my biggest problem with the vehicle. Supposed to be the big bad ass tank, but it can get stuck on a rock. Dozer blades would be a nice bonus. A buddy of mine and myself like to play test ideas for changes to the game. Dozer blade on a landraider was amazing. Or just simply give it a special rule allowing you to re-roll your terrain rolls for the vehicle. Not much a raider of the land when land raids you.

Also, average dice glance a LR on any facing, but pen a Pred on front. And lol av 10/11 rear/front.

And no POTMS.
And 4HP vs 3.
And much better shooting, although less than at equal points.

Even when moving 12", it can still do some shooting.

Honestly, if you want each model to be a specialist in the one thing it does, why play an army of generalists?

Bharring wrote:
Also, average dice glance a LR on any facing, but pen a Pred on front. And lol av 10/11 rear/front.

And no POTMS.
And 4HP vs 3.
And much better shooting, although less than at equal points.

Even when moving 12", it can still do some shooting.

Honestly, if you want each model to be a specialist in the one thing it does, why play an army of generalists?

It's what I own. I really, really dislike GWs concept and pricing for generalists, but they're what I've got.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So, to paraphrase, you want an IG army called space smurfs?

How did you get that out of my posts?

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why have a relic of the chapter that is supposed to be the be-all end-all intended to duke it out with any threat they could encounter while driving through a siege line and not put any weapons on it? I could see IG doing something like that, but not Marines. This isn't some do-the-job transport for an engagement or two, these are the pinnicle of SM armor, each one a priceless relic!

With no guns, it would still be around 200 points. Nothing short of s8 can even glance it, even in melee. And 4 HP is a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And choices are good. It shouldn't cost as much as something that can do both just as well, but it should certainly cost more than something that can only do one just as well. Choices like this - move more or shoot more - are critical to playing SM. Unless you bikespam, because they get to do both. For fewer points. But Tacs, Devs, and even ASMs (jetpack to move or charge?) all have to make tradeoffs. And that's what I love about my SMs.

Except that the land raider is not worth firepower for the price. It's a false choice in the case of the land raider. Why would I not drive my CC hammer to its target asap? Every turn they spend in the thing is a waste of their points. There is no way an AV 14 box with no guns costs 200 pts, because of how poor assault is in the game now.

Also, I don't care about it being a relic of the chapter. Nothing in 40K makes any sense, anyway. The LR is a stupid WW I tank. We quit using this concept by the 1930s. We also quit using sponson guns. The LR is terrible in the game, and that's what matters to me. If cutting it's price by a huge amount by taking the guns off makes it playable, that's what I care about.

As it stands now, the LR can't duke it out with anything in an efficient manner.

"And that's what I love about my SMs."

It's all fun and games until you face an efficient list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm going to get real here. Sometimes I use a god hammer LR. I take it with an IK and 3 dreadknights and it does work. It works because who can spare sucide meltas to shoot a LR when there is a knight in front of it. Problem is the only way I can get the thing to survive is to put titans on the board to draw fire from it. Offensively I think the god hammer is perfect but defensively - it might as well be a predator vs a melta gun and it's mainly the defense you are paying for + the assault transport factor. Best suggestion ive seen so far is to give LR a serpent shield type ability vs pens. I think a 4+ would be more realistic than 2+ obviously and it doesn't need to have a 7 shot str 7 ignore cover 60 inch gun to go with it, or the ability to gain 3+ cover on demand...is that too much to ask?

I ignore them w/o knights on the table. What is it going to do? Shoot a gun at me once in a while? After playing WS over and over, land raiders are a walk in the park. They might as well have zero guns.

Do you ignore trilas preds? Because the firepower from a LR is pretty comparable - LR has better firepower once you get into 24 inch range. LR can easily do this by moving 6 inches 2 turns in a row without sacrificing any firepower - or can just snap fire a las cannon once to get 18 inches of movement in 2 turns. Also even a minimum 5 man GK term squad that can get into assault easily as a counter charge can't be ignored. Most units can't handle 2+ armor in CC these days.

Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

Martel732 wrote:
Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

"I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers."
Which I why I proposed a price increase and making them IB. Can move and shot all weapons - so they can fill their dual purpose easy. Ignore the dmg table, get expensive units where they need to go unhindered. Within reason - all vehicals should function this way anyways...for crying outloud our current tanks of the day can track 10+ targets at once and shoot 120 mm cannons at 2 miles at full speed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

"I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers."
Which I why I proposed a price increase and making them IB. Can move and shot all weapons - so they can fill their dual purpose easy. Ignore the dmg table, get expensive units where they need to go unhindered. Within reason - all vehicals should function this way anyways...for crying outloud our current tanks of the day can track 10+ targets at once and shoot 120 mm cannons at 2 miles at full speed.

That's why I find 40K battles and tech absurdly poor. A buff would fix the issue as well, but Xeno players would lose their minds.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

"I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers."
Which I why I proposed a price increase and making them IB. Can move and shot all weapons - so they can fill their dual purpose easy. Ignore the dmg table, get expensive units where they need to go unhindered. Within reason - all vehicals should function this way anyways...for crying outloud our current tanks of the day can track 10+ targets at once and shoot 120 mm cannons at 2 miles at full speed.

That's why I find 40K battles and tech absurdly poor. A buff would fix the issue as well, but Xeno players would lose their minds.

because people care more for balance than fluff? anyone else find it weird that a 1500 point foot slog SM army has roughly half of the company? when a 1500 point infantry guard has less than 1/10 the expected number?

You already need dedicated AT to explode a Land Raider. That's not the real problem. You can argue it's cost too but that's not going to fix the fundamental problem either.

The real problem is that vehicles are way to easy to kill through hull points. Especially with glances so easy to achieve now

A lack of hull points should weaken a vehicle not outright destroy it. So instead of auto-wrecking at 0 HP perhaps require an additional penetrating hit to wreck. This way you can't glance anything to death anymore, you'd have to take real AT. Instead maybe have additional glances stun/shake so they don't just strip hull points.

At least HPing landraider takes quite a bit!

With s8 missile launchers:
(2/3) hit (1/6) glance = (1/9) with no saves, or *36* missile launcher shots with no cover!

Most lists need weapons dedicated to killing things like that because things like missile launchers just don't get the job done!

There's a 12,95 % chance of destroying a Land Raider by a melta weapon from within melta range. We're talking about melta weapons, the most anti-armour specialised weapon - shouldn't such a weapon be able to one-shot a Land Raider?

We could lower the chance but when the freak incident happens, we'll probably question its durability again. Where was the slight chance of 12,95 % when the OP shot it in one shot? Don't we just have to accept that a Guardsman can kill a Terminator through the eye lens with a lasgun and destroy a Land Raider with a meltagun as we cannot look back and calculate if it was due or happened to often?

@Those of you who think it's okay for a melta weapon to one-shot a Land Raider when within melta range:

How big should the chance be to destroy a Land Raider by a melta weapon from within melta range, not thinking about its cost?

I'm not so worried about the melta. I can bubblewrap my raider if necessary, but it's just not worth bringing in the first place, imo. It doesn't do enough for its points.

So the unkillable tank doesn't have enough firepower? If you don't care about it surviving, spend your points on something else, and leave the LR to those that want to use its survivability?

Bharring wrote:
So the unkillable tank doesn't have enough firepower? If you don't care about it surviving, spend your points on something else, and leave the LR to those that want to use its survivability?

It's far from unkillable. It has a 1:6 chance of neutering itself by driving through a rough field. People have also pointed out its vulnerability to melta drops.

Given how weak assault is in this edition, I can't imagine with I'd pay 250 pts for an assault enabler. Being unkillable doesn't matter if it's ignorable. Every time I see a land raider, I just think "that could have been a grav cent squad. Score!"

Positioning means more than just assault vectors.

Also, I guess it makes a difference that Space Marines have fast Bikes and Land Speeders which can wield the melta weapons while Eldar's fusion weapons are only wielded by infantry.

Chaospling wrote:
Also, I guess it makes a difference that Space Marines have fast Bikes and Land Speeders which can wield the melta weapons while Eldar's fusion weapons are only wielded by infantry.

Land Raiders are irrelevant to Eldar for different reasons.

That reason being, almost everything in a competitive Eldar list that isn't Davu is there to pop Land Raiders and things like it. When half the list is LR counters, it should be able to handle LRs.

What chance got riptyde, which is cheaper and looks much less durable than LR,to be one shoted by melta?

Obviously LRs need ceramite plating and count as dozer blades(or just ignore terrain ) free of charge.

Then it need something to keep all it's weapons normally firing on the move.

Then it needs smth like 5++, and/or more hp

And then price reduction to 200+/- points

elotar wrote:
What chance got riptyde, which is cheaper and looks much less durable than LR,to be one shoted by melta?

Obviously LRs need ceramite plating and count as dozer blades(or just ignore terrain ) free of charge.

Then it need something to keep all it's weapons normally firing on the move.

Then it needs smth like 5++, and/or more hp

And then price reduction to 200+/- points

Yes, but the Riptide can be one-shoted by a psylincer whilst the Land Raider cannot.

How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

Martel732 wrote:
How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

24" and just saiyan and a Land Raider is also unlikely to be one-shotted too due to the 7th vehicle damage chart.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

24" and just saiyan and a Land Raider is also unlikely to be one-shotted too due to the 7th vehicle damage chart.

I'm not the one complaining about the one-shot thing. I'm complaining, because like 66% of all Imperial equipment, it can't decide what it's actual job is and fails at all jobs for its point cost. The LR is one of the most ignorable things in the marine codex given its cost.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

24" and just saiyan and a Land Raider is also unlikely to be one-shotted too due to the 7th vehicle damage chart.

I'm not the one complaining about the one-shot thing. I'm complaining, because like 66% of all Imperial equipment, it can't decide what it's actual job is and fails at all jobs for its point cost. The LR is one of the most ignorable things in the marine codex given its cost.

It is highly resilient though. I hate it when CSM use one with a dirge caster and drives it right at my Tau as I can't kill it so I lose my overwatch :(

Just go have a Riptide step on it. I've seen so many LRs destroyed that way. CSM doesn't have grav; your Riptides are effectively immortal against their shooting attacks.

LRs are really not good. Bad, even. They're just so expensive for what they are supposed to do.

Martel732 wrote:
Just go have a Riptide step on it. I've seen so many LRs destroyed that way. CSM doesn't have grav; your Riptides are effectively immortal against their shooting attacks.

LRs are really not good. Bad, even. They're just so expensive for what they are supposed to do.

How? Str 9 nova charge will glance it on a 5+ and if it smashes it glances on a 4+ with one die only...

I don't use Riptides anymore and when I used to they would often be destroyed by a nurgle biker squad with burgle lord since I never kept them hidden at the back like a dick.

I guess it's harder after the smash nerf, but still doable.

Just put a fire warrior squad or something else throwaway in front of it.

If he tank shocks you, his dudes can't get out.
If his dudes get out, the throwaway squad is in the way.
Then murder them with bullets on your next turn. Let the LR do whatever it wants. There's almost no way for it to pay for itself with the squad inside neutralized.

Once his army is just a land raider, then you can start taking the long shots at it, like a smash from a riptide and such.

What if we made the Land Raider able to both tank-shock and let people out during the same turn? There's not much that'd it'd care about not running over.

Another fix could of course be to make it so that there's a unit that isn't Assault Terminators that is actually worth putting inside, but even then the Land Raider itself would be rather iffy at best.

Make it Av 15-15-14 and suddenly its WAY better.
I don't know if I'm evn being serious here, because I know this would never fly by ANY xeno players.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:What if we made the Land Raider able to both tank-shock and let people out during the same turn? There's not much that'd it'd care about not running over.

Another fix could of course be to make it so that there's a unit that isn't Assault Terminators that is actually worth putting inside, but even then the Land Raider itself would be rather iffy at best.

There are other units worth putting in one. I run 15 blood claws and a wolf priest, with the Wulfen stone, in a LRC. You ever seen what happens when 15 marines, doing 4 attacks each at S5, rerolling ones to hit plus another marine doing 5 S8 attacks gets stuck in to CC? It's beautiful. And without the Land Raider, there'd be no chance of them all surviving to get into CC.

I'll be honest, I love the Land Raider. Is it overpriced? Hells to the yes, you won't hear an argument there from me. When you compare it to say, the Stormwolf, which has Jink, HtH, Ceramite plating, tl helfrost cannon, tl lascannon, 2 tl multi-melta, while still having PotMS and Assault Vehicle, for 25 points less, and can still carry the same 16 man squad, it definitely raises some big questions about what orifice GW pulled the 240-260pt cost for Land Raiders out of.

The Land Raider is overpriced, no doubt. But I definitely don't think it's a useless unit. It packs some decent dakka, especially the Crusader, and they can give a hard hitting unit some decent protection on their way into CC. Or multiple units, if utilized right. I tend to use mine like a moving shield.

But, I did come to realize a while back that SW tend to have different perspectives on certain units compared to other SM players, so YMMV.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:Make it Av 15-15-14 and suddenly its WAY better.
I don't know if I'm evn being serious here, because I know this would never fly by ANY xeno players.

Of course not, because how dare Marine players want to be balanced compared to xenos armies.

What about the 12,96 % chance of a melta weapon destroying a Land Raider, making an average of 7,7 shots needed for every one-shot kill? (Within half range of course). Is it good? Should it be lowered?

Making it super heavy would give it:
12" move and still fire all weapons at full BS
Fire weapons at different targets (suddenly the lascannon/heavy bolter is less of a mismatch)
Cannot be stunned, immobilized or exploded, significantly helping boost its survive-ability

The cost of the raider and an weak melee unit inside (say a CSM) is already equal to the cost of an Imperial Knight. It has similar firepower and vastly inferior survivability and melee potential (the guys inside). I think making it super heavy would definetly help justify it as a unit that is allegedly supposed to be 'nearly impervious to all save the most destructive weaponry' and be able to 'deliver punishing fire support capable of decimating enemy infantry and armour alike.'

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Make it Av 15-15-14 and suddenly its WAY better.
I don't know if I'm evn being serious here, because I know this would never fly by ANY xeno players.

Maybe AV 15 on the front but keep the side AV as 14.

240ish points for a land raider. I pay more then that for my Morkanaut, especially when you give it the 5++ against shooting, which is the only reason to take it. So im spending I think 300+ pts for a Regular Walker, 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 TL Rokkitz, KMB and KMK. 13/13/12 with 4 HPs and the 5++ invul bubble (6in). I have BS2 because even my expensive units don't get access to Gitfindas for some F*cking reason. I can't split fire, I can only care 6 models and its not an assault transport. So why, dear god, are you SM players complaining about your assault vehicle which has 2 TL S9 weapons that can destroy my Naut in a single turn of firing while in return I have a KMB and a KMK that will probably miss/get hot and only glance on a 6. Ohh I do have TL rokkitz which have a 50/50 chance of hitting so 1 hit and glance on a 6......3 weapons which probably won't hit and only glance on a 6. When I played Marines I used my Landraider to transport termies to where I needed reinforcements and I utilized it and my Las Pred as Anti tank weapons. my LR survived every game I played and demonstrated his worth by killing tanks and infantry in excess of his points cost. If you don't like the vehicle don't take it, but arguing about how its under powered and needs more for less is the same as me complaining about my Naut needing a massive upgrade to make it feasible, I think it does and no other race does. :-p

 Ghazkuul wrote:
240ish points for a land raider. I pay more then that for my Morkanaut, especially when you give it the 5++ against shooting, which is the only reason to take it. So im spending I think 300+ pts for a Regular Walker, 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 TL Rokkitz, KMB and KMK. 13/13/12 with 4 HPs and the 5++ invul bubble (6in). I have BS2 because even my expensive units don't get access to Gitfindas for some F*cking reason. I can't split fire, I can only care 6 models and its not an assault transport. So why, dear god, are you SM players complaining about your assault vehicle which has 2 TL S9 weapons that can destroy my Naut in a single turn of firing while in return I have a KMB and a KMK that will probably miss/get hot and only glance on a 6. Ohh I do have TL rokkitz which have a 50/50 chance of hitting so 1 hit and glance on a 6......3 weapons which probably won't hit and only glance on a 6. When I played Marines I used my Landraider to transport termies to where I needed reinforcements and I utilized it and my Las Pred as Anti tank weapons. my LR survived every game I played and demonstrated his worth by killing tanks and infantry in excess of his points cost. If you don't like the vehicle don't take it, but arguing about how its under powered and needs more for less is the same as me complaining about my Naut needing a massive upgrade to make it feasible, I think it does and no other race does. :-p

It is underpowered. I show this every time I go up against one. Using the LR/Terminator combo is a good way to take C:SM and lose to my BA when you should be wiping the map with me. And my list is kind to LRs compared to some of the BA lists on this site. They'll drop so much cheap melta all over you that your LR will look like a Rhino.

Martel732 wrote:
Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

And make it an oversized rhino? No thanks.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

And make it an oversized rhino? No thanks.

It would be a massive improvement, though.

For those who want a Rhino, it would be an improvement. For those who want a Rhino/Leman Russ cross, it'd be a massive step down.

Aren't there already super heavy transports, if that's what you're looking for? With maximum transport and minimum firepower?

Bharring wrote:
For those who want a Rhino, it would be an improvement. For those who want a Rhino/Leman Russ cross, it'd be a massive step down.

Aren't there already super heavy transports, if that's what you're looking for? With maximum transport and minimum firepower?

You can't cross Rhino/Leman Russ successfully with 40K's vehicles rules. You will necessarily be paying for abilities that can you can't use. It's much better to have one tank do nothing but shoot and have another do nothing but transport than have a single tank that does both halfway.

The LRs firepower/pt is already a joke. It's even worse on the turns it has to move. Taking the guns off is not a massive step down from its current effective firepower/pt.

Once again, you want, in your Marine army, a specialist unit that does one job very well.

I want, in my Marine army, units that can threaten in multiple ways. May not do any one task as efficiently, but the ability to do one of several options yields a lot of tactical flexibility.

Marines are, both by fluff and mechanics, intended to be better at several things other their main purpose than equally-elite specialists from other factions. So, that anti-MC shooty DE unit is better at dropping an MC at range than the Marine one, but the Marine one can pop that Devilfish or Raider parked in front of them.

Guard are a lot more focused. Leman Russes are MBTs. Guardsmen are small arms firepower in high volume. They generally outshoot Marines, but Marines are much better in melee.

Orkz smash face. But Marines shoot them hard.

DE Eldar are all about excess. Their guns hit very hard very fast, and have lots of tricks, but have no staying power.

Necrons are slow and sturdy, but have few tricks, and not as killy.

Marines do it all, but a little worse than anything. Because that's what a Marine is. Skilled at and equipped for any general role. Not as cost-effective at any one, because he can do any other in a pinch.

Please don't make my Marines just bigger-looking Guardsmen. I like the way they are. But if you play them like Guardsmen, why are you surprised that they aren't as good at being Guardsmen as IG.

(And about this whole 'poor IoM', how many Marine lists were in the top 8 in the LVO? And how many Eldar lists?)

"May not do any one task as efficiently, but the ability to do one of several options yields a lot of tactical flexibility"

Flexibility without efficacy is useless. It has to be able to do the multiple jobs well, which it can't.

"Once again, you want, in your Marine army, a specialist unit that does one job very well. "

Yes, because that's what works.

"Marines do it all, but a little worse than anything"

I'd argue a lot worse. But maybe familiarity breeds contempt.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
240ish points for a land raider. I pay more then that for my Morkanaut, especially when you give it the 5++ against shooting, which is the only reason to take it. So im spending I think 300+ pts for a Regular Walker, 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 TL Rokkitz, KMB and KMK. 13/13/12 with 4 HPs and the 5++ invul bubble (6in). I have BS2 because even my expensive units don't get access to Gitfindas for some F*cking reason. I can't split fire, I can only care 6 models and its not an assault transport. So why, dear god, are you SM players complaining about your assault vehicle which has 2 TL S9 weapons that can destroy my Naut in a single turn of firing while in return I have a KMB and a KMK that will probably miss/get hot and only glance on a 6. Ohh I do have TL rokkitz which have a 50/50 chance of hitting so 1 hit and glance on a 6......3 weapons which probably won't hit and only glance on a 6. When I played Marines I used my Landraider to transport termies to where I needed reinforcements and I utilized it and my Las Pred as Anti tank weapons. my LR survived every game I played and demonstrated his worth by killing tanks and infantry in excess of his points cost. If you don't like the vehicle don't take it, but arguing about how its under powered and needs more for less is the same as me complaining about my Naut needing a massive upgrade to make it feasible, I think it does and no other race does. :-p

I would interject that while all that is valid, you're coming from the viewpoint of an Ork player. Which is to say, you're coming from the viewpoint of an army that is fairly balanced compared to Marines. It's why I love playing against Orks; it's a fair fight. If everything were Marines vs Orks, I wouldn't have a complaint about the cost or abilities of just about any unit in either army. It's when you look at the OP cheesefest that many other Xenos armies have that Space Marines (and Orks) are overcosted and underpowered.

We could, of course, just fix the power balance the other way, make the OP xenos units cost more, but I see that causeing a lot more butthurt than buffing marines up a bit. And for what it's worth, there are quite a few buffs I think Orks should get, too. I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I'm not after advantage, just balance.

Hell, I'm the imperial player who thinks the Stompa should cost 150pts less, because right now the IK is more cost effective, hands down.

yes SM and Orks haven't gotten much love in recent the recent codex's but at the same time LR have been the bane of my existence as an ork player for awhile. Incredibly hard to pop and assault termies tend to eat my valuable back line units and ruin my BWs. I consider them over priced compared to certain other units, but by far and wide they are effective at what they do, even if Martel thinks all marines are garbage and need a 2++. Everyone complains about how LRs die to Meltas....well thats the point of a melta gun now isn't it? Anti-Tank. Meltas are designed to Mess up heavy armor, LRs are designed to kill tanks and drop off assault terminators at a specified point. Regardless if your mad at people for bringing a specialized list designed to kill vehicles then I should be mad at everyone I play who brings lots of Anti-infantry weapons. In fact by that logic, ork boyz are over priced and "useless" they clearly need a massive buff or a point reduction........See doesn't make much sense to complain about things like that does it?

I'm down for army wide point reductions all across c:SM and orks if everyone else agrees!

 Ghazkuul wrote:
yes SM and Orks haven't gotten much love in recent the recent codex's but at the same time LR have been the bane of my existence as an ork player for awhile. Incredibly hard to pop and assault termies tend to eat my valuable back line units and ruin my BWs. I consider them over priced compared to certain other units, but by far and wide they are effective at what they do, even if Martel thinks all marines are garbage and need a 2++. Everyone complains about how LRs die to Meltas....well thats the point of a melta gun now isn't it? Anti-Tank. Meltas are designed to Mess up heavy armor, LRs are designed to kill tanks and drop off assault terminators at a specified point. Regardless if your mad at people for bringing a specialized list designed to kill vehicles then I should be mad at everyone I play who brings lots of Anti-infantry weapons. In fact by that logic, ork boyz are over priced and "useless" they clearly need a massive buff or a point reduction........See doesn't make much sense to complain about things like that does it?

I'm not complaining about the melta. The split nature of the tank's role makes it liability in a list.

I never said all marines are garbage. Please stop with the hyperbole. Units in the marine list that can be properly specialized are just fine. The LR and terminators don't qualify. They fail at every job assigned to them. Even your own statement makes no sense. A unit can not be both cost effective and overpriced.

It's also worth nothing that Ork boyz are sufficiently cheap that many anti-infantry options that are viable against them are not cost effective. Melta is extremely cost effective against LRs.

I said they are Overpriced compared to certain other units. Some units in this game are broken and we all know it. Don't take things I say out of context. You have argued that the LR is useless and that terminators are useless. You probably have said the same about other marine units but im not compelled to go look for your posts. Regardless Im not trying to make this a bash fest, im just pointing out that with the applications of tactics and a bit of luck both terminators and land raiders are great at what they do. A land raider can move 12 and still fire a TL LC at full BS using POTMS very few vehicles can do that. You don't like the Land raider because its not as shooty as a tank and your biggest complaint about its transport part is that it can be immobilized by DT. I agree that a simple Dozer blade upgrade would be acceptable but the rest of the proposed ideas make a LR OP as hell. It is already damned hard to pop unless you focus fire lots of anti tank against it. I would be fine with it being able to take cermite plating but only at a large point increase 30+. because realistically meltas are the only sure fire way to take a land raider out.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I said they are Overpriced compared to certain other units. Some units in this game are broken and we all know it. Don't take things I say out of context. You have argued that the LR is useless and that terminators are useless. You probably have said the same about other marine units but im not compelled to go look for your posts. Regardless Im not trying to make this a bash fest, im just pointing out that with the applications of tactics and a bit of luck both terminators and land raiders are great at what they do. A land raider can move 12 and still fire a TL LC at full BS using POTMS very few vehicles can do that. You don't like the Land raider because its not as shooty as a tank and your biggest complaint about its transport part is that it can be immobilized by DT. I agree that a simple Dozer blade upgrade would be acceptable but the rest of the proposed ideas make a LR OP as hell. It is already damned hard to pop unless you focus fire lots of anti tank against it. I would be fine with it being able to take cermite plating but only at a large point increase 30+. because realistically meltas are the only sure fire way to take a land raider out.

I don't need to pop it. That's my whole point. My opponent already crippled his own list by bringing a 250 pt vehicle with terrible firepower. The best you can usually do is dump out your assault terminators, kill one unit, and then get shot off the table. 450 pts is too high a price to kill one unit of your opponent's choosing.

"A land raider can move 12 and still fire a TL LC at full BS using POTMS very few vehicles can do that."

Any fast vehicle can fire two weapons. And they all pretty much cost a lot less.

"are great at what they do."

Killing a cheap, throw away unit and then dying horribly? That's what they'll be doing against me, at most.

Again, tactics martel. Tease out that unit that really needs to die, entice your opponent whatever. Yeah FA vehicles can fire 2 weapons when they move 12 but the difference is most FA vehicles die to bolter fire or at most heavy bolter equivalent spam. Or hell make it even nastier. Autocannons which my ork list has a lot of.

You say I would be crippled but I would find a way to out shoot you or out assault you. I stay in the back you try to Drop pod assault my LR with Melta guns. I would have a bit of bubble wrap and save 1-2 of your shots and then my termies would just hop out and eat your Drop pod and assault marines. You stay in the back and launch pot shots at it? I would start driving up with several different threats and kill your shooty bitz. You throw a throwaway unit in my face and make me assault it? nope, I will sacrifice a turn to get into a better position. It is the weak minded player who doesn't understand how to get around those small obstacles.

You would neither outshoot me nor out assault me with a LR+terminators in your list. That I can assure you of. As I said in the other thread, the LR is largely a non-sequitur.

Good luck with your boltguns/heavy bolters against WS and fast preds.

Like I said i play orks entirely now. But I did have a LR and a lot of termies when i played marines and I always made them work for me, im sorry you haven't figured out how to best utilize them but you will find a way one day if you keep experimenting with them and above all the best tip I can give you is have fun with the game not try to win every single time. (easy to say as an ork player )

I always try to win.

then your either very competitive or a WAAC player who I wouldn't want to play with. It's called a game for a reason, your supposed to enjoy playing it.

So you don't play with people who like to win?

We all play to try and win, but we don't even try to play if we aren't going to have fun. Twice in the last year we have asked players to either change their play style or find a new venue to play in because of their aggressive/argumentative play style that resulted in people complaining about them.

There's a world of difference between aggressive and argumentative.

I don't have fun against Eldar. Ever. But I have to play them to be a good sport.

My LR Vanquisher will destroy the Land raiders! Also I find the Land Raider more effective the more models they carry but it does carry more risk.

If you don't enjoy a matchup, it might be better for a 'sport' to play it, or if you're training for a tourney, but isn't it better for a 'game' to not? Let them play someone who they like to play, and you play something/someone that you'll enjoy playing?

I play different armies/lists against different people, because I know what will challenge who. Some people will want to see my 'A' game, but others don't enjoy that. Some people like playing my SM, but not my Eldar. Several Ork players, for instance, hate playing Mechdar, but when I throw down Swordwind, they have a blast. And some people just don't like playing me, so I avoid playing them.

Its a game. Why do things that aren't fun?

Bharring wrote:
If you don't enjoy a matchup, it might be better for a 'sport' to play it, or if you're training for a tourney, but isn't it better for a 'game' to not? Let them play someone who they like to play, and you play something/someone that you'll enjoy playing?

I play different armies/lists against different people, because I know what will challenge who. Some people will want to see my 'A' game, but others don't enjoy that. Some people like playing my SM, but not my Eldar. Several Ork players, for instance, hate playing Mechdar, but when I throw down Swordwind, they have a blast. And some people just don't like playing me, so I avoid playing them.

Its a game. Why do things that aren't fun?

It's just not done in my group. You play who you draw. It got to the point where no matchups were fun with the old codex, so I quit coming for a while. BA got better, but Eldar are still very frustrating. We're pretty much all "A" game all the time.

Ghazkuul wrote: im sorry you haven't figured out how to best utilize them but you will find a way one day if you keep experimenting with them and above all the best tip I can give you is have fun with the game not try to win every single time.

Ghazkuul wrote:then your either very competitive or a WAAC player who I wouldn't want to play with. It's called a game for a reason, your supposed to enjoy playing it.

I don't think any part of the OP asks you to be judgmental about anyone. It's not there. I like it when posts in a thread about making things competitive use competitiveness as a scale, instead of just telling people they are personally defective.

Martel732 wrote:Take the weapons off and drop the points to 150

365 points is still really expensive for a close combat unit that kills one thing and then dies. I don't think there is a threshold where a marine cc unit in an av14 taxi becomes good. 300 points? It is still kind of a pass.

If you have av14 4hp, I think you have to be a wave serpent. You buy it for the guns and transport a cheap ObSec squad. Not as good as a wave serpent at Maelstrom, but with split fire and heavy 2 lascannons maybe ok for some stuff. So you have to fix the guns and fix the other units in the book.

Doubling the transport capacity might help. If you have 2x units in 2x LR, and one is made useless due to a lucky pen, you should be able to load the unit into the other transport and keep moving towards the enemy. You would also be able to retreat decimated squads inside the LR to deny kill points.

It's not an enormous change but every little bit helps. Two Land Raiders then end up having some synergy together -- if one is destroyed, you have enough space to ferry the stranded squad to their destination.

Still expensive but costing is easy to adjust.

Give LR's escape hatch

I think the best way to make land raiders viable would be to give them wings.



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/Bobmakenzie/BA/IMG_3535.jpg


jk

The ability to carry 20 units would definitely be nice but what would be really awesome would be if they were able to carry 2 squads as well. Then you could put 2 squads of 10 CSM in it and have them jump out to hold objectives or engage different targets.

wtnind wrote:
The ability to carry 20 units would definitely be nice but what would be really awesome would be if they were able to carry 2 squads as well. Then you could put 2 squads of 10 CSM in it and have them jump out to hold objectives or engage different targets.

Sorry, yeah. That's what I meant. 20 capacity, 4 squads even, you have a very efficient taxi that has a bit of armed utility on the field and becomes a decent alternative to drop pods, bikes or Rhinos/Razorbacks to move your teams around.

Wings are good too.

We are using this

...I am in awe of "Build-a-Land-Raider" Workshop.

Interestingly, the cheapest combination is Hurricane+Heavy Bolters, for a total of 185 points, with a transport capacity of 16 models.

I'd recommend making the twin-linked Lascannons 25 points (this is what a Predator pays for the twin-linked lascannon), and twin-linked ACs down to 20 points (Razorbacks can take twin-linked ACs for that).

Interestingly, even just configuring it into the extant patterns (Godhammer/Phobos, Crusader, Redeemer), you save 25-35 points over the current Codex costing.

As an aside, is it intended to be able to take two different sponson guns? The sentence preceding the sponson options could be interpreted to allow that (even though it's dumb).

Also, I find it interesting that the cheapest configuration is almost what the Crusader should have been- leaving the bow HB mount in place, and exchanging lascannon sponsons for Hurricane Bolters.

You should put the Ares in here. Drop transport capacity in trade for a Demolisher Cannon for the main gun.

Come to think of it, it should probably include a Whirlwind launcher as a turret option (that would be the Helios), and require that the Thunderfire Cannon/Whirlwind Launcher reduce transport capacity by 6, with a Demolisher Cannon reducing capacity to "0, cannot be increased".

Also, Typhoon MLs are, AFAIK, the primary vehicle mounted option for a higher RoF ML. Cyclones are almost exclusively used by Terminators- FW Contemptor Dreads are the only other unit that can take CMLs.

Hi Rhinosaur

Is that old 40k or did you design the list?

What is the SV 3+ used for?

Evil Party Girl wrote:
Hi Rhinosaur

Is that old 40k or did you design the list?

What is the SV 3+ used for?

I made it myself. It is a work in progress. We use a 3+ save for ground vehicles and 4+ for skimmers as a way of reducing all the glancing hits from non-anti-tank weapons. It is kind of pointless on a land raider though. With the introduction of hull points vehicles just seem to get blown away too easily by heavy bolters and scatter lasers which are meant for anti infantry.

As to everyone else - thanks for all the suggestions. Originally we were experimenting with the option for two different sponson weapons but in reality everyone has been using two of the same - they compliment each other that way.

 rhinosaur wrote:
I made it myself. It is a work in progress. We use a 3+ save for ground vehicles and 4+ for skimmers as a way of reducing all the glancing hits from non-anti-tank weapons. It is kind of pointless on a land raider though. With the introduction of hull points vehicles just seem to get blown away too easily by heavy bolters and scatter lasers which are meant for anti infantry.

I that's a great idea! Can I expand on it? Basically, give every armour facing an AV rating and a Penetration rating (2+, 3+, 4+).

Land Raiders with a 2+ front facing, but a 3+ side/rear facing, wouldn't be stronger against Lascannon or Melta but you couldn't glance them out with massed AP3 Krak from the front. In addition, it makes the points premium for anti-tank AP1/AP2 weapons more valuable rather than spamming high-volume but low AP shots to scrub HP off vehicles.

Not bad yo!

It also deals with the whole skimmers are twice as durable as regular tanks thing. And deals with ignores cover being so awesome on gravcents/waveserpents etc.

Some upgrades are required some just buff the thing to much. This thing is a moving fortress and it shouldn't cost less then 200 with all its upgrades.

It doesn't matter that it's a fortress. It's a fortress that comes to you and can be ignored once it is empty.

 rhinosaur wrote:
As to everyone else - thanks for all the suggestions. Originally we were experimenting with the option for two different sponson weapons but in reality everyone has been using two of the same - they compliment each other that way.

Oh, I didn't mean to say that your group did so, just that there absolutely exists people who are such flaming buttnuggets that they would try to weasel around such a thing. I'd recommend changing the wording to be explicitly "you MUST take two of the SAME sponson weapon", to avoid problems with such buttnuggetry.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I that's a great idea! Can I expand on it? Basically, give every armour facing an AV rating and a Penetration rating (2+, 3+, 4+).

Land Raiders with a 2+ front facing, but a 3+ side/rear facing, wouldn't be stronger against Lascannon or Melta but you couldn't glance them out with massed AP3 Krak from the front. In addition, it makes the points premium for anti-tank AP1/AP2 weapons more valuable rather than spamming high-volume but low AP shots to scrub HP off vehicles.

Not bad yo!

Massed Krak fire isn't likely to do that in the first place though- Krak Missiles (and their equivalents) are all S8, which means a 6 is needed to glance. Statistically speaking, you'll need to fire thirty-six S8/AP3 shots to glance a Land Raider to death in one turn, assuming you have the luxury of massed BS4 Krak. If you're BS3, you'll need to fire a whopping 48 shots, and at BS2 it's something like 72.

I rather feel that massed Krak is not actually a problem for a Land Raider, due to the difficulties Krak fire has in actually damaging the LR in the first place.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Some upgrades are required some just buff the thing to much. This thing is a moving fortress and it shouldn't cost less then 200 with all its upgrades.

The Ork super walker things can get a D-strength melee weapon. They shouldn't cost less than 300 points.
Battlewagons are Fast AV14 front bawkses that can hold 20 mans. They shouldn't cost less than 200 points.

I'm sure we both agree that the above two sentences are complete groxshit. The logical extension is that your own statement is equally that as well. A Land Raider with Hurricane Bolter sponsons and a twin-linked HB in the bow is not a scary thing. So it can carry 16 mans, an is AV14 on all sides? I guess it's good for you that the only useful SM assault units you can chuck into it are also ridiculously expensive by themselves anyways.

It's also worth noting that I intentionally "gamed" the posted ruleset for Build-Your-Own-LR. I purposely picked the cheapest armaments possible, to find out what I'd end up with. As something that will be used as a pure transport, 185 points for AV14/14/14, 4HPs, 16 transport capacity and an assault ramp... it's not bad. Especially when you consider that the guns aren't likely to ever be fired, and that if you want Frag Launchers (for Clawnators, who have no grenades), then it goes to 195 points. Frag Launchers are a pretty nice upgrade to have for it, and consistent with fielding a big heavy duty transport bawkse for something punchy.

If you decide to throw on EA to guarantee it arriving in the enemy's lines, then that's 200 points on top of the base HB/Hurricane configuration, 210 if you want Frag Launchers. That's perfectly reasonable for what is essentially going to be treated as an unarmed vehicle, given that the guns will probably not fire, on account of simply having it go forward as fast as possible to deliver a punchy unit of your choice.

If we permit only the extent Godhammer, Crusader, and Redeemer patterns as "legal", then it comes out as 225 points for a Godhammer or Redeemer, and 215 points for a Crusader. Both are quite obviously more than 200 points anyways, which makes you look like you didn't actually go through and hammer out a few configurations with the posted entry.

AnomanderRake wrote:You should put the Ares in here. Drop transport capacity in trade for a Demolisher Cannon for the main gun.

Ah yes, I missed that one. Looking at the predator and vindicator give the demolisher cannon a value of 60pts. Does that seem right or should it be modified because of the loss of transport? It looks like it has TL heavy flamers as well.

Whiskey144 wrote:Come to think of it, it should probably include a Whirlwind launcher as a turret option (that would be the Helios), and require that the Thunderfire Cannon/Whirlwind Launcher reduce transport capacity by 6, with a Demolisher Cannon reducing capacity to "0, cannot be increased".

Also, Typhoon MLs are, AFAIK, the primary vehicle mounted option for a higher RoF ML. Cyclones are almost exclusively used by Terminators- FW Contemptor Dreads are the only other unit that can take CMLs.

Yep, missed that one too. the transcap should be -6 for thunderfire. I guess you could still manage 10 transcap by taking the hurricanes. I am not familiar with the whirlwind launcher on a land raider. Where does it fit? it seems too big for the front turret.

It has always seemed absurd that a term who is half as big as a dreads' arm can fire two missiles and the great big dread only gets one shot. Just a house rule we have.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 rhinosaur wrote:
I made it myself. It is a work in progress. We use a 3+ save for ground vehicles and 4+ for skimmers as a way of reducing all the glancing hits from non-anti-tank weapons. It is kind of pointless on a land raider though. With the introduction of hull points vehicles just seem to get blown away too easily by heavy bolters and scatter lasers which are meant for anti infantry.

I that's a great idea! Can I expand on it? Basically, give every armour facing an AV rating and a Penetration rating (2+, 3+, 4+).

Land Raiders with a 2+ front facing, but a 3+ side/rear facing, wouldn't be stronger against Lascannon or Melta but you couldn't glance them out with massed AP3 Krak from the front. In addition, it makes the points premium for anti-tank AP1/AP2 weapons more valuable rather than spamming high-volume but low AP shots to scrub HP off vehicles.

Not bad yo!

I have toyed with the idea of different values of save for different facings. At least -1save for rear perhaps. In practice It seems best to leave the max at 3+ because AP3 is considered anti tank. Ork tank busters with tank hunter USR should be allowed to do their job.

 rhinosaur wrote:
Ah yes, I missed that one. Looking at the predator and vindicator give the demolisher cannon a value of 60pts. Does that seem right or should it be modified because of the loss of transport? It looks like it has TL heavy flamers as well.

I'd slightly reduce the price to ~40 points- the Demolisher Cannon should by far be the most expensive 'turret' mount you can stick on the Land Raider, but IMO 60 points is too much since all you're really doing is making a very expensive (though very durable) Vindicator.

 rhinosaur wrote:
Yep, missed that one too. the transcap should be -6 for thunderfire. I guess you could still manage 10 transcap by taking the hurricanes. I am not familiar with the whirlwind launcher on a land raider. Where does it fit? it seems too big for the front turret.

Check out the FW Land Raider Helios model; rather than using the bow mount, it slaps some kind of targeting/sensor device in that position, and simply mounts the Whirlwind Launcher on the vehicle's roof. It's also worth noting that both the Demolisher and Thunderfire Cannons both preclude the inclusion of an Assault Ramp- or even a forward access point, for that matter. It may be the case that the Thunderfire should be slightly cheaper, on account of the -6 capacity and the removal of the forward access point and associated assault ramp.

 rhinosaur wrote:
It has always seemed absurd that a term who is half as big as a dreads' arm can fire two missiles and the great big dread only gets one shot. Just a house rule we have.

I think you may have misunderstood me; I was merely saying that it's slightly more consistent with the current SM vehicle design for a non-walker vehicle (like the Land Raider) to use the Typhoon ML rather than the Cyclone ML, despite the fact that both weapons are literally identical in every way except the name.

That said, you do bring up an excellent point: Dreads getting a regular, single-shot ML and Terminators getting a double-tap rig is kind of silly. OTOH, there may have been a balancing reason for that, given that Dreads can also take a twin-linked Autocannon for a 2-shot S7 weapon that's, as mentioned, twin-linked.

 rhinosaur wrote:
I have toyed with the idea of different values of save for different facings. At least -1save for rear perhaps. In practice It seems best to leave the max at 3+ because AP3 is considered anti tank. Ork tank busters with tank hunter USR should be allowed to do their job.

Hmm, I didn't know that Tankbustas had the Tank Hunter USR. I'm also not sure how that affects the number shots that they'd have to fire (statistically speaking); but even then it's probably not going to be less than 36 shots fired, as that's the best-case scenario I could come up with; most SM units (or models in general, AFAIK) that can do mass S8 shots tend to lack twin-linked on the relevant weapon.

Of course, as I mentioned, even with the 3+ save being voided by AP3, massed Krak fire still takes ridiculous amounts of shots to actually kill a Land Raider via glancing.

Lythrandire Biehrellian made a vehicle creation chart. You can find it in this thread here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634211.page. That might have what a person wants for fixing land raiders. If not, then I would just give increased troop capacity, drop their point cost, and give it an ability called "mobile assault gunship" This vehicle may move at cruising speed and fire all weapons at full BS in the shooting phase. This vehicle may disembark troops in the shooting phase. Troops disembarked in the shooting phase may not shoot, but may still charge and assault.

A crusader would have a capacity of 20 models, a redeemer would have room for 16, and a land raider godhammer would have room for 14 models. An alternate to this would be to let the land raider treat bulky and it's variants as taking up one less troop. So you could have 16 terminators in a crusader.

My goodness. I want a Spartan after this, but don't have the $225 aussie dollars for it.

There are alot of good ideas in this thread.
I like the idea of making a LR a super heavy. All the rules make.sense IMO.

Meanwhile, in the fixing rail weapons thread, the Tau players are complaining that Land Raiders are too hard to kill and isn't this awful

I'd probably not give it the option to be better-than-Fast in some of the most useful ways available.

That being said, I have often thought that LRs getting the ability to be pseudo-Heavy, in that they can still move at Cruising/Flat Out speed, but also get to treat Combat Speed as Stationary for the purposes of shooting, would be a good compromise.

I also like the idea of Land Raiders being allowed to disembark troops in the shooting phase. In fact, I'd extend that ability to any vehicle that has the functional equivalent of an assault ramp- almost invariably such vehicles are open-topped, and available to primarily punchy/choppy armies, so I'd say that that would be a really nice bonus to have for those forces, in addition to the benefits for Marines.

I would, however, caution against overly increased capacity for the Redeemer/Godhammer. Godhammers, IMO, should be 12 capacity... in fact I still have no idea why GW decided to change it to a 10-man transport. Kind of dumb, IMO.

Redeemers.... I could see arguments for them being 14 or 16. Crusaders being 20 would be something I would really only be comfortable with if they trade the AC for the stock Godhammer HB mount.

I'd also recommend that LRs not get any ability that allows them to count Bulky+ models as non-Bulky. For one, there's literally no way to get 16 Terminators into a Crusader if they're non-Bulky. For two, it actually does somewhat smack of "Marine Favoritism". I'm certain that that is not your angle on that, but there's a lot of people who'd see such a change/rule and completely lose their gak.

EDIT:

 Rippy wrote:
My goodness. I want a Spartan after this, but don't have the $225 aussie dollars for it.

There are alot of good ideas in this thread.
I like the idea of making a LR a super heavy. All the rules make.sense IMO.

I rather dislike the idea of LR=superheavy. There's really not any justification for it, AFAIK. The other thing is, of course, that the super-heavy damage tables are completely broken- the old Apoc table that included things like "Gun Crew Shaken/Stunned" and similar results was, IMO, much better. Perhaps not as streamlined for playing large Apoc/Epic scope battles, but if superheavies are going to be an asset that shows up in 'traditional' 40K, then the old super heavy damage table would have been a vast improvement, and would have massively aided in keeping certain superheavy vehicles from being broken.

Alcibiades wrote:
Meanwhile, in the fixing rail weapons thread, the Tau players are complaining that Land Raiders are too hard to kill and isn't this awful

Yes, well, it seems that most Tau players don't realize that the investment of a LR does not provide very good returns. Certainly, a Land Raider's firepower is... lacking. It's rather telling as well that most LR variants tend to either dispense with some/most/all transport capacity in favor of being a pure gun platform- and generally either getting lots of good-quality, or a single 'amazing' gun. OR, LR variants (somewhat more commonly?) tend to dispense with useful guns in favor of being a big hard-to-kill transport. It's just a pity that Marines don't have very many assault units that can actually make a LR useful.

Of course, Marines totally have tons of 10+ man squads that can leverage the huge capacity of a Crusader, right guys?