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Last game I blew up my friends land raider with a combi melta from a LSS on turn 1. It's so frustrating and infuriating when this happens to you on the TT - it even makes you feel bad inside when you blow one up - like "it shouldn't have been that easy." Fact of the matter is - it is that easy. For a 260ish point tank - being 1 shot should basically be out of the question IMO.

To fix this I suggest land raiders have the super heavy rule - I'm not sure of the points that should be required for this change but I think something around 295 sounds fair considering the are very much not worth their points at 250. They already have POTMS which is halfway to super heavy shooting. The rest is really just a defensive upgrade. Obviously ignoring the damage table is a very powerful upgrade but should not land raiders be very powerful? Lets be realistic here - its only 4 HP and can still lose 75% of it's hull points on a single melta and it has no ion shields.

What you guys think?

Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

Make all lascannon heavy 2

I like the idea of keeping them at 4 hp and giving them invincible behemoth. It's still possible to one shot one with an ap1 or ap2 weapon, just much rarer. And of course, a half squad of sternguard combi meltas or similar vehicle wrecking crews are still going to ice the thing, with just a little worse odds.

Martel732 wrote:
Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

I rather like the fact that it's tough and has guns. Though I would be totally for a cheaper version of the LR which had no sponsons. Maybe like 120 points and comes stock with TL HB and gets upgrades like a razorback and can still take MM. It would be real cool. Also doing double duty is easy when you aren't hindered by moving all the time because you have super heavy rules.


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niv-mizzet wrote:
I like the idea of keeping them at 4 hp and giving them invincible behemoth. It's still possible to one shot one with an ap1 or ap2 weapon, just much rarer. And of course, a half squad of sternguard combi meltas or similar vehicle wrecking crews are still going to ice the thing, with just a little worse odds.

Exactly - 5 meltas is still going to bring it down most of the time - just 1 melta is going to be a long shot to do significant damage.


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 Formosa wrote:
Make all lascannon heavy 2

Well Godhammer patter LR do have 4 total las cannons

Take the land raider Achilles for 300 points. Now your immune to melta and lance and only insta die on from ap1 on a 6.

Throw in a techmarine, iron hands chapter tactics and schism of mars if you still don't think it survives long enough.

Finally, beat yourself in the face for making it too good to play against, and realize no one wants to face unkillable land raiders.

...... Or invincible behemoth works too.

Ceramite plating for all variants - it's fluffy and not stupid broken, but it makes them much tougher against your usual melta shenanigans.

Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

IDK...making it immune to melta would probably be worse than superheavy (indestructible behemoth) - meltas are supposed to be good at killing tanks - I don't want to take that away from them.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

I'm not familiar with the stats on the spartan. Whats it got over the standard LR? just 2 more LC? Is it tougher? points?

 Xenomancers wrote:
IDK...making it immune to melta would probably be worse than superheavy (indestructible behemoth) - meltas are supposed to be good at killing tanks - I don't want to take that away from them.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

I'm not familiar with the stats on the spartan. Whats it got over the standard LR? just 2 more LC? Is it tougher? points?

Five hull points, twenty-model transport, access to Armoured Ceramite. The Spartan is what the basic Godhammer Land Raider wants to be but it's better at it.

I support the notion that land raiders shouldn't be melta-proof. I still think of land raiders as the main reason to take meltas despite how rarely I see them. don't want to give people yet another reason to spam plasma, do we?

Honestly, with the current meta in mind, I think you could get away with simply reducing a land raider's cost a bit. Making it a more appealing transport (by making it cheaper) encourages people to use more melta/las and less plasma, and losing said land raider is less of a frustration if it isn't such a huge investment.

You shouldn't be punished for taking a land raider, but you also shouldn't punish your opponent for not taking a melta in every squad

I always wondered why it is 250pts, other than its always been that much I cant understand it, 200pts maybe 220 with machine spirit makes more sense to me

 Formosa wrote:
I always wondered why it is 250pts, other than its always been that much I cant understand it, 200pts maybe 220 with machine spirit makes more sense to me

The high cost made more sense in 5th edition where they could be tricky to take down even with melta. Since hull points became a thing (and haywire became more prevalent), their price does seem a bit much. I'd argue that flyers are far more durable most of the time than land raiders.

Take what DA get, venerable for them, but make it free for all LRs.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

This. The spartan is so much better than the base land raider it's not funny. Comes with extra armour, double the lascannon fire, double the transport capacity, and the ability to take armored ceramite for 45 points over a base land raider. It's just so good

The problem is the whole vehicle damage chart. One shot kills on a 250 point unit are lame. Vehicles need to merge with or become more like MCs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Last game I blew up my friends land raider with a combi melta from a LSS on turn 1. It's so frustrating and infuriating when this happens to you on the TT - it even makes you feel bad inside when you blow one up - like "it shouldn't have been that easy." Fact of the matter is - it is that easy. For a 260ish point tank - being 1 shot should basically be out of the question IMO.

To fix this I suggest land raiders have the super heavy rule - I'm not sure of the points that should be required for this change but I think something around 295 sounds fair considering the are very much not worth their points at 250. They already have POTMS which is halfway to super heavy shooting. The rest is really just a defensive upgrade. Obviously ignoring the damage table is a very powerful upgrade but should not land raiders be very powerful? Lets be realistic here - its only 4 HP and can still lose 75% of it's hull points on a single melta and it has no ion shields.

What you guys think?

I think it's fine And doesn't need any changes. I'm comparing this to the ork mork/gorkanaut. Our vehicles are relatively the same price. The morkanaut 310 pts when buffed and can still experience the same 1 shot kill. We have less reliable shooting less transport capacity and don't count as an assault vehicle. The only difference is that we can assault and even then I get that 1 S 10 ap2 hit from a lucky smash attack that explodes me.

With the land raiders shooting and transport capabilities it doesn't need any tweaking.

Superheavies come with their own plethora of things like uber-tankshocking, interaction with difterrain, catastrophic damage explosions, possibility of transporting multiple units...not telling about the rarity with which you see an actual av14 superheavy.

It's reasonable cost would clock around 400 pt. And by that point, you're still vulnerable to melta.

That's the problem all expensive vehicles face. Damage table is becoming more and more punishing the more you invest into your vehicle. Your landraider has ~ same chances of surviving being hit with a melta as a predator which is 2 times cheaper and is not carrying expensive stuff inside that'd get put out of the game by a transport's death/immobilisation.

But making it completely immune to a damage table with invincible behemoth won't be good without increasing it's points.

Why not give it some protection against penetrating hits? Something like a stronger ramshackle/weaker serp shield.

You can downgrade a penetrating hit to a glance on a 5+. Seems good enough for me without a point increase to a current model. Would like to see it on Naughts too.

I wouldn't give them armoured ceramite, but I do think it would work if you did something like give LR -1 on the vehicle damage chart (so AP2 couldn't explode them, and AP1 would require a 6), or something like what koooaei suggested, letting you downgrade a pen to a glance. Or maybe a lesser version of IB, where instead of an explodes result doing d3 hull points, it just dies straight up 3 points of damage (so two explodes results would still always destroy it).

Personally, I don't think buffing the Land Raider against explosions a bit should cost more points. The whole point is that it is far too squishy for how much it costs.

 koooaei wrote:
Superheavies come with their own plethora of things like uber-tankshocking, interaction with difterrain, catastrophic damage explosions, possibility of transporting multiple units...not telling about the rarity with which you see an actual av14 superheavy.

It's reasonable cost would clock around 400 pt. And by that point, you're still vulnerable to melta.

That's the problem all expensive vehicles face. Damage table is becoming more and more punishing the more you invest into your vehicle. Your landraider has ~ same chances of surviving being hit with a melta as a predator which is 2 times cheaper and is not carrying expensive stuff inside that'd get put out of the game by a transport's death/immobilisation.

But making it completely immune to a damage table with invincible behemoth won't be good without increasing it's points.

Why not give it some protection against penetrating hits? Something like a stronger ramshackle/weaker serp shield.

You can downgrade a penetrating hit to a glance on a 5+. Seems good enough for me without a point increase to a current model. Would like to see it on Naughts too.

Good ideas here^ maybe IB is too much for a LR. 5+ reduce pen is probably too weak though - maybe 4+ to turn pen to glance.

Seems to me that the problem is the meta. Every army needs to stack threats to AV13/14, so the reasonable AV14s (LRs) feel like paper. People need to stack that stuff thanks to ubiquitous Knights, and t6 2+s. So nothing less means much.

When everyone is kitted for popping AV13/14 spam, unless it were totally broken, a reasonable AV14 is gonna feel like it needs a buff. But the more appropriate changes are probably along these lines:

1) Nerf the things that are unreasonably survivable. Knights (Imperial, Dread, and Wraith, although Tide fits this category) getting nerfed would do great things for this game. With those requiring such an absurd amount of firepower, and being so hard to kill, while doing so much damage, makes them a cornerstone of the meta. As a cornerstone, all reasonable lists need to build to handle them. And most solutions to them torch Land Raiders, which are quite reasonable.

2) Perhaps have Damage Table scale with remaining HP? I had posted an option based on armor save modifiers, but there are other options. Perhaps a 'HP Save', which downgrades Pens to Glances, at 7-HP? So LRs would start with a 4+, most would be a 5+, and the really light ones at 6+? Alternately, what about pen table effect =(6 + d6 -HP - AP)? First melta pen on most vehicles would explodes on a 5+, LRs on a 6+, light vehicles on a 4+, and open topped on a 3+? Plasma/lascannon would be unable to on its first pen, 6+ on its last pen? And a ML would be able to blow up a Rhino with 1HP remaining on a 5+, but not be able to at all when it has all 3 remaining? Pen effects would scale very closely with both AP and HP in a very fluid yet fitting way. After all, a Singing Spear shouldn't be so much more deadly to vehicles than a Krak missile. (AP- would be a 7, results 0 and under would be a glance)

3) Firepower escalation is causing problems. Things like Grav Bikers are necessary because Knights. But that allows taking lots of Grav for few points, and ignore all of gravs drawbacks.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Replace the base Land Raider with the Spartan. Done.

This. The spartan is so much better than the base land raider it's not funny. Comes with extra armour, double the lascannon fire, double the transport capacity, and the ability to take armored ceramite for 45 points over a base land raider. It's just so good

Seconding this. Also power of the machine spirit for the CSM one would be nice.

Bharring wrote:
Seems to me that the problem is the meta. Every army needs to stack threats to AV13/14, so the reasonable AV14s (LRs) feel like paper. People need to stack that stuff thanks to ubiquitous Knights, and t6 2+s. So nothing less means much.

When everyone is kitted for popping AV13/14 spam, unless it were totally broken, a reasonable AV14 is gonna feel like it needs a buff. But the more appropriate changes are probably along these lines:

1) Nerf the things that are unreasonably survivable. Knights (Imperial, Dread, and Wraith, although Tide fits this category) getting nerfed would do great things for this game. With those requiring such an absurd amount of firepower, and being so hard to kill, while doing so much damage, makes them a cornerstone of the meta. As a cornerstone, all reasonable lists need to build to handle them. And most solutions to them torch Land Raiders, which are quite reasonable.

2) Perhaps have Damage Table scale with remaining HP? I had posted an option based on armor save modifiers, but there are other options. Perhaps a 'HP Save', which downgrades Pens to Glances, at 7-HP? So LRs would start with a 4+, most would be a 5+, and the really light ones at 6+? Alternately, what about pen table effect =(6 + d6 -HP - AP)? First melta pen on most vehicles would explodes on a 5+, LRs on a 6+, light vehicles on a 4+, and open topped on a 3+? Plasma/lascannon would be unable to on its first pen, 6+ on its last pen? And a ML would be able to blow up a Rhino with 1HP remaining on a 5+, but not be able to at all when it has all 3 remaining? Pen effects would scale very closely with both AP and HP in a very fluid yet fitting way. After all, a Singing Spear shouldn't be so much more deadly to vehicles than a Krak missile. (AP- would be a 7, results 0 and under would be a glance)

3) Firepower escalation is causing problems. Things like Grav Bikers are necessary because Knights. But that allows taking lots of Grav for few points, and ignore all of gravs drawbacks.

Honestly, I agree with you 99.9%, but I think there would be a lot more b'awww from the meta if you buffed the LR than did anything to the so wonderfully balance IK. I know I don't want to have to listen to all people at my local who have like 3 Knights.

it got taken out by a hard counter? I don't see anything wrong with it, other than it being slightly overcosted.

 Brennonjw wrote:
it got taken out by a hard counter? I don't see anything wrong with it, other than it being slightly overcosted.

Even when it doesn't get taken out, it doesn't DO anything. It's 250 pts that I can ignore if I'm facing one. I usually thank my opponent for bringing them. The thing is going to taxi some CC squad across the board, it's going to get out, squish a unit of my choosing, and then that CC unit will get shot to death on my turn, and I go back to ignoring the land raider. It's 250 pts of complete fail.

To be fair, I wouldn't call it 'easy' to blow up a Land Raider, especially if you only used a single combi melta. If you send several after it, then yes, it could be considered 'easy' due to your odds increasing.

Yes, you get better odds of getting a pen with Melta, but you still often need a 6 to even get it to explode. Still pretty small odds. When it happens, it feels either great or poopy, depending on how early in the game it is/the competitive level setting you're playing.

I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Same here. They are big, durable, and expensive to field. As an Ork player, they are not that super scary. Yes, their weaponry will mince most of my vehicles, but so will pretty much anything in their army. But they devote an entire tank to kill just one or two things that cost me exponentially less points and I have multiples in play. *shrug* It's got dudes inside? So what? I got too many dudes to care. XD

Melevolence wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Same here. They are big, durable, and expensive to field. As an Ork player, they are not that super scary. Yes, their weaponry will mince most of my vehicles, but so will pretty much anything in their army. But they devote an entire tank to kill just one or two things that cost me exponentially less points and I have multiples in play. *shrug* It's got dudes inside? So what? I got too many dudes to care. XD

My favorite troll move is to flat out an empty BA Rhino directly in the path of the thing.

Martel732 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm wondering why so many people go to heroic efforts to kill the stupid things. Take the guns off, make them much cheaper, and done. People can shoot at my AV 14 box for 120 pts all day long.

Same here. They are big, durable, and expensive to field. As an Ork player, they are not that super scary. Yes, their weaponry will mince most of my vehicles, but so will pretty much anything in their army. But they devote an entire tank to kill just one or two things that cost me exponentially less points and I have multiples in play. *shrug* It's got dudes inside? So what? I got too many dudes to care. XD

My favorite troll move is to flat out an empty BA Rhino directly in the path of the thing.

I just use Trukks to block it off. And if it proves to be annoying, the Nobz inside will just cut it open and be done with it. But yeah, just out run it, or have it waste it's cannons on Boyz or cheap, paper transports that dropped off their cargo.